The Greatest Who Has Ever Lived?

The Greats in Grand Prix Racing.....
.....passing on the baton.

1897 – 1903 Fernand Charron
1897 – 1903 Renι de Knyff
1902 – 1923 Victor Hιmery
1906 – 1924 Felice Nazzaro
1905 – 1929 Louis Wagner
1910 – 1926 Jules Goux
1921 – 1948 Tazio Nuvolari
1929 – 1939 Rudolf Caracciola
1931 – 1949 Jean Pierre Wimille
1948 – 1958 Juan Manuel Fangio
1951 – 1962 Stirling Moss
1960 – 1968 Jim Clark
1964 – 1973 Jackie Stewart
1971 – 1985 Niki Lauda
1980 – 1993 Alain Prost
1984 – 1994 Ayrton Senna
1991 – Michael Schumacher

Just how would you sort those 17,
leaders of their epoch? And who amongst them
was the Greatest who has ever lived?

Good list, however Nigel Mansell should be in there for pure racing ability..intresting that Prost gets mentioned and not 3 times WC Piquet not that Piquet deserves a mention he his the most forgotten WC and rightly so.

I agree with Mansell (1980 - 1995) but think that he was overshadowed by Prost and Senna. I also tried to keep the list as short as possible.

As always Hans, you are showing a lot of perspective others don't tend to show. To take your list right back to the beginning is simply beyond the knowledge of so many.

What appeals to me is the length of some of those careers. Nazarro, Hemery, Wagner, Nuvolari, Wimille, all very long careers. Though it seems you include Nubolari's motorcycle years (and why not?).

Choosing an order for them is a staggering task. And I also feel it's wanting for some other names, notably Gurney, but I guess you have to draw the line somewhere.

I'm sure Number One has to come from the earlier years, with Fangio being the most recent real possibility. His career actually started about 1932 or so, with some death-defying racing over the Andes (and death-dealing... one co-driver died) that resulted in victories over all comers in really difficult racing circumstances.

I'd be tempted to put him at the top of the list for that, combined with what he went on to achieve in the more 'refined' racing of the fifties. Genuine class... Aintree 1955, Albi 1953, Nurburgring 1957, and there was a Mille Miglia where he combined the two of his careers... if I can put it that way.

But I don't know enough about the earlier drivers. Some of whom, I might add, were less of racing drivers than factory test drivers, if I understand correctly. Not that this detracts from their listing...

Wimille is an interesting listing, his career as a top-line driver being cut so short, I'd really like to know more about what he did pre-war... Caraciolla certainly had runs on the board, and Nuvolari really captures the imagination.

Chiron is another I feel should be in the list... deliberation time...

And it's nice to see you here, Hans. At least I can communicate with you on this forum.

As you know it is impossible to say who was the greatest ever without getting a chance to really compare them. Statistics don't tell much as we know. But still I think that it is possible to say that some were better than others. On the top of every list you will usually find Ayrton Senna da Silva, also for me the greatest of all. But I am not only saying this for he was probably the fastest rainmaster I ever saw, or because he was unbeatable at Monte Carlo, but also because he was maybe the greatest character i ever saw in sports. He was a philosopher in a racingsuit, loved people all over the world and did something for wellfare in his country. I don't know if we will ever be able to say so e.g.about M. Schumacher, who obviously is fast and very skilled, but a mediocre character. Can someone who doesn't live Grand Prix -racing in a totally emotional way, someone who doens't behave like the gentlemen-racers of the past, ever be a great driver? Senna was, others like Schumacher or Lauda are not. Lauda was the most antipathic racer i ever saw. And, for he always gives analyses for the austrian TV I have to watch, he didn't change until now. He still is arrogant. His character makes him a bad Grand Prix driver...totally besides his statistical results. There is some classic spirit of racing a great driver must live, nowadays in Formula One only Alesi does so.

I have taken your suggestions to heart and expanded the original list. The intent here is to show only the bare minimum of the Great Drivers who passed on the baton.

1897 – 1903 Fernand Charron
1897 – 1903 Renι de Knyff
1902 – 1923 Victor Hιmery
1906 – 1924 Felice Nazzaro
1905 – 1929 Louis Wagner
1910 – 1914 Georges Boillot
1910 – 1926 Jules Goux
1921 – 1928 Pietro Bordino
1921 – 1948 Tazio Nuvolari
1926 – 1955 Louis Chiron
1929 – 1939 Rudolf Caracciola
1931 – 1949 Jean Pierre Wimille
1947 – 1955 Alberto Ascari
1948 – 1958 Juan Manuel Fangio
1951 – 1962 Stirling Moss
1960 – 1968 Jim Clark
1965 – 1970 Jochen Rindt
1964 – 1973 Jackie Stewart
1971 – 1985 Niki Lauda
1980 – 1993 Alain Prost
1980 – 1995 Nigel Mansell
1984 – 1994 Ayrton Senna
1991 – Michael Schumacher

And who amongst them was the Greatest who has ever lived?

Hans, thankyou for your revised list and taking the time to type it all out again.
Best or greatest drivers will always remain personal to those communicating on this thread and its nice that you respect others views.


Thanks again


Guy

Splitting hairs, Hans, but if Louis Chiron's career went to 1955 (and I know it did) and Nuvolari's to 1948, how about taking Caracciola's to 1952 (or was it 1953?) when he crashed at Berne.

I think Fangio is still the man for me, but the order beyond him, I think I'd like to see some submissions...

Maybe there should be submissions on each of them?

And where's Dan?

Guy,
I used the copy/paste method in this case, just added a few drivers.


Ray,
I always wondered what had happened to you since your almost disappeared from The Nostalgia Forum. I also posted this topic there: http://www.atlasf1.com/bb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22144

On my list I show with each driver their time spent in GP racing only. That is why Caracciola starts so late, having spent his early years racing in minor formulae, sports cars and racing cars only in mountain climbs. His Grand Prix career ended in 1939, thereafter he never raced a GP car in a contest. Nuvolari's first formula libre race was in 1921 at the Garda Circuit. He raced on two and four wheels during the twenties. He appeared with his 350cc Bianchi for the last time in 1930, while having a contract with the Alfa Romeo factory. Something unthinkable today.

Hans:
Again splitting hairs, and it's not really "today" but John Surtees was still an MV works rider when he started in F1 with Lotus in 1960 and dovetailed the two sports together before moving completely to four wheels in 1961 with a Yeoman Credit Cooper.

But to the case in point: every sport attempts comparisons like this - was Puskas better than Beckham, would Louis have beaten Tyson, is Lara as good as Bradman etc (I'd quote some baseball as well, but my knowledge of that ends at having heard of Babe Ruth and Micky Mantle), but in most sports you are essentially comparing like with like over the years - soccer matches still last 90 minutes, boxing is boxing and Test cricket is still 5 days. In motor racing however, we are always looking at events of different formats and types and this necessarily complicates the question - how can we compare Senna or Prost winning a race that lasts not more than 2 hours (if it rains) with (say) Georges Boillot winning the French GP in 1913 - he covered over nine HUNDRED kilometres in just under eight hours!

I'd like to put a case to split this into three eras:
1 Before 1926
2 1926-1960
3 1961 onwards

These dates would fit in reasonably well with both the list of drivers you have named and the history of our sport: 1926 sees the end of active European participation in American racing until the 60s and 1961 saw a change of Formula and almost complete changes of driver line-ups within only a couple of years. Race distances in 1926 are still fairly comparable with 1960,while from 1961 we start to see shorter, more compact races. Any thoughts on this proposal Hans?

At any event, in the classic pre-1914 era, I'd like to suggest the name of David Bruce-Brown (1910-12), twice winner of the American Grand Prize and quite possibly one of the best drivers of his era.

Yes, FJ did indeed race the two side by side, and almost won a GP in his first year!

I hesitate to agree, but I feel that Bruce-Brown is another worthy, though the list can't go on endlessly. Note that Daniel Sexton didn't get included...

Really, to take this up initially, I think Hans has started this to get the overall view, and breaking up the periods should be the task of another thread or threee.

Hans, I was banned from Atlas... if you email me at raybell@eisa.net.au I'll explain further.

Originally posted by Ray Bell
.....I feel that Bruce-Brown is another worthy, though the list can't go on endlessly. Note that Daniel Sexton didn't get included.....The list is supposed to show only "drivers who assumed the mantle of greatest of their era after the passing or retirement of the previous such person."

Just because I personally think very highly about Rosemeyer, doesn't mean that he belongs into this elite group. Now, if you folks want to add David Bruce-Brown, Dan Gurney and others, its o.k. with me as long as we can agree who really should belong into a short list like this. Gurney (1959-1970) was not the leader of his epoch. Bruce-Brown (1908-1912) should probably be included. GP racing had stopped in Europe for three years and an American carried the Baton. Yes, you are right, Vitesse. Consider him added for now.

As for splitting the list into three subsections, this might be a good idea but for my purpose I would like to keep the list in one piece, since I do not expect it to grow much in length.

This list was just my own idea and not necessarily faultless. As we have already seen, there were omissions. Well, for exactly this reason I displayed it here to ‘listen’ to your folks suggestions and hopefully improve on the original draft. So, please keep on going and let's plug the holes.

Guy,

I'm interested in your comments concerning Piquet. In his early years I think he was amongst the best. Why do you think he doesn't deserve to be on the list?

If Piquet wilted before Jones (and he did, my view of Monaco in 1981 was exactly that), and became moribund in the presence of Prost, Senna and Mansell... well, I can understand Guy's comment, even if I'm coming from a different angle.

Well, I don't recall him wilting at Monaco but the Phoenix race was where he was so dehydrated he coulkdn't get out of the car. Certainly that at least makes him determined.

About lap 48 Jones pulled in over a second on him. Then waited as Piquet went mad... he was on the rev-limiter everywhere, then crashed in the left hander after the Chicane.

Shame Jones had fuel pickup problems, but at least it meant I saw a Ferrari win and a Villeneuve win once in my life...

Thanks for that. I do recall that when Piquet won his third wdc in 1987 he was not number one in the Autocourse top ten drivers. I don't think he even wrote the foreword.

Actually I always considered him to be a bit "spoilt".

Hans, I would have to question on what basis they were the best of their day after the handing over of the baton from the previous era. I think, for example, that Gilles Villeneuve was generally viewed by his contemporaries as the best amongst them. And there are others like Rosemeyer who, even in the company of the likes of Nuvolari, Carraciola, Chiron et al looked special.
I think you would also have to take into account that the level of competition as far as the talent on offer, has varied greatly. I have seen Varzi described often as Nuvolari's biggest adversary, yet he appears nowhere on the list, but then the further you look the more names get added and far from finding out who was the best you end up with a huge list of great drivers.
As with all sports it all comes down to opinion. In my opinion Gilles was the greatest. Others will have a different idea, I don't think there is a greatest. They all, for various reasons and with different strengths have their place in the hearts of racing fans.

Well said Angst, I'd agree that my two 2 "heros" Gilles Villeneuve and Bernd Rosemeyer, should make the list - how can they not when Chiron (surely never more than a good journeyman) has been let on.

As for choosing the best ever it harder than impossible, how can you compare the drive of Gabriel (also not on the list) in the Mors, on the 1903 Paris-Madrid, averaging 65mph to win the race when it was stopped at Bordeaux, with Micheal Schumacher finishing 2nd in Spain in '94 when it was stuck in 5th gear. Both brilliant drives in their own way, but to compare....

Hopefully, up in heaven, the is a match racing series for all the great pilots, driving a variety of machinery around the Nordschlief, original Spa, Pescara, Rouen Indianapolis and Suzuka. The we could tell.

Just to add my two cents, I maintain a similar list of the Greatest of the Greats. I include only drivers that have really dominated for at least three years, ie have won the most races in those seasons or have had clearly more podium finishes than any other driver. The list begins in the late twenties, for I feel there was no really dominating driver before that, but of course that's arguable.

Here comes:

Louis Chiron
Tazio Nuvolari
Rudolf Caracciola
Alberto Ascari
Juan Manuel Fangio
Stirling Moss
Jim Clark
Jackie Stewart
Alain Prost
Ayrton Senna
Michael Schumacher

And now, trying to do the impossible:

1. Prost
2. Fangio
3. Chiron
4. Moss
5. Clark
6. Stewart
7. Schumacher
8. Senna
9. Caracciola
10. Ascari
11. Nuvolari

But I have to say, the more often I think about that ranking, I am inclined to change it again, it's such a close call!

Originally posted by Peter Mallett
Guy,

I'm interested in your comments concerning Piquet. In his early years I think he was amongst the best. Why do you think he doesn't deserve to be on the list?


Proberbly his manner on and of the track, no one at Williams payed him any high regard and in my opinion Mansell was the better driver at Williams in 86 and 87.
Although Piquet was a very gifted driver he is not referred to as Senna, Mansell and Prost and therefore he is a forgotten 3 times champion, whether he desrves it or not is personal opinion although his comments off the track at other drivers were the act of a novice and a man who became a poor ambassador for the sport.


Guy

I don't feel it's relevant to mention off-track behaviour, though it will always help shape our view of a driver. Peter Brock, for instance, was untouchable in Touring Cars in Australia for over a decade, but I know things about him which would tend to lower my view of him should I allow them to take precedence.

Piquet, however, was clearly defined for me that day at Monaco. And later his exploits at Benetton were enough to show he was only there for the money. That he was Honda's 'chosen one' is another issue, and I always loved the way Mansell raced... good enough reasons to put him off the list...

Jones speaks with reverence about Villeneuve, always speaking as though he was the man to beat... a possible contender? Villeneuve won that race, as recounted previously, but only by doggedly not giving up and taking over when Jones struck trouble.. but there were other days, better cars.

Chiron, by the way, Marshal, was virtually unbeaten one year in Bugattis, and he did have significant opposition. I think your rating is unfair... he was good enough to get a seat in the M-B team of 1936, and that came at great cost. I think (am I wrong) it brought his only crash, and it certainly raised the hackles of his family. I don't know how many of them it alienated when he drove for the hated Germans, but at least his nephew knew nothing about him because of it... an indication of the trials he went through for his racing career.

Chiron merely a 'good journeyman'? You must be kidding! Maybe, if you only look at his performances in WC races, when he was well over 50 years old... But still then, he rarely had the cars to do the job. When he did have, he was still an ace in the late fourties, and virtually unbeatable in the late twenties/early thirties. AAAND he had a career almost five times as long as Gilles Villeneuve, for example...

__________________
Michael Ferner