Greatest British Cars

I've come across some 'greatest cars' lists on AOL. Some of you may already have seen them but I thought I'd stick them up here to encourage some discussion.

The criteria for what they consider great is unclear, but the lists I've seen seem to be a combination of bestsellers, innovative designs and cars that you just want, even if they're impractical.

So far, I've seen British, French, Italian, German and American lists, but I thought Id put them on separately and spread them out a bit.

Here's the British list:

1. Jaguar E-type
2. Austin 7
3. Rover 2000
4. Range Rover (original)
5. Nissan Bluebird (built in Sunderland, which they reckon: "showed Britain could still make cars")
6. Jaguar XJ6
7. Morris Minor
8. Mini
9. Jensen FF
10. Jaguar XK120
11. Rover SD1
12. Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost
13. Lotus Elan
14. Land Rover (original)
15. Ford Lotus Cortina
16. Ford GT40
17. Bentley R-Type Continental
18. Bentley 3-litre
19. Austin 1100
20. Aston Martin DB5

I'm slightly surprised the Mini isn't higher and how can there only be one Aston? I am also slightly amused by the inclusion of the GT40, a car that at best could be described as Anglo-American, particularly as the picture they chose was of the distinctly American MkII.

So, what do people think? Obvious cars missed? Some that shouldn't be there?

Ford Excort Mexico should be on there.
Original Bentley "Blower" should be top. ;)
Don't understand the XJ6 or Rover SD1.

I feaqr that this is rather like the "Greatest" films/ songs/ musicals etc, which are almost always focused on more modern times.

Many of these listed were awful!

And the lists excludes most of the triumphs of British automobile engineering; like the Lanchester, braring in mind that many of Fred Lanchester's designs and inventions are still being used today, over 100 years later.

Which actually shows you how little we have really progressed..................

I feaqr that this is rather like the "Greatest" films/ songs/ musicals etc, which are almost always focused on more modern times.No fear of modern British cars on here though!
Many of these listed were awful!I think they all have merits; very different ones too.

Nissan Bluebird ?? :rofl:

Don't think I would every describe the Austin 1100 as a 'great car'. It was especially good looking, not particularly well built and not a great technological leap forward. The transverse engine, hydrolastic suspension features had all been tried and tested in the Mini some years earlier.

Agree with Garcon about the XJ6 or SD1, and maybe add the Rover 2000 to that list.

Lotus Seven seems an obvious omission. From a modern(ish) standpoint what about the Sierra RS Cosworth or Escort Cosworth?

I agree where are the Escort and Sierra Cosworth?

I am also slightly amused by the inclusion of the GT40, a car that at best could be described as Anglo-American, particularly as the picture they chose was of the distinctly American MkII.


yeah, that one has me confused.

One more suggestion - the Ford Transit. I know strictly speaking it's not a car, but it drove like a car and shared many design features and parts with Ford's car range. In terms of ground-breaking design and it's impact on society it's more than a match for the Morris Minor.

I worked for Ford Europe at the time the GT40 was the supercar.

In fact, all apart from using a US V8 - sorted by Carrol Shelby, the GT40 was of course a Lola, as Ford bought Lola cars. Eric Broadley happily sold the business, with the one proviso that he retained title to the name, Lola.

A yoing chum of mine at the time, Roy McFruin was an ex-apprentice with Ford, having gone through the Ford Apprentice School in Essex and was extraordinarily fortunate enough to be posted to what was then FAV (Ford Advanced Vehicles) at Slough.

He was constantly talking to Shelby, since part of his job was resourcing parts.

Additionally, he was allowed - on Ford's insurance! - to bring cars home at weekend and was often to be seen driving around in a prototype. One weekend he drove home to Essex in an experimental 7 litre job and proceeded to spend all his wages and loads of his Mum and Dad's dosh on petrol, burbling around the horizon!

The only real "Ford" component was support services like foundry and certain sub-component fabrication from (mainly) Ford UK and Dearborn.

Of course, the subsequent Mk II and the later J type (the one which Ford US designed, which fell to pieces on the Dearborn test track killing the driver, as the rivets and the honeycomb ally-composite monocoque fell apart.

John Whitmore and Jack Sears were the early test drivers and Whitmore came to Warley (Ford Europe's Central Office a Near Brentwood Essex) and enraptured a crammed lecture theatre ( perhaps I ought to say, theater!) with his tales of development test driving; like when he and Sears took off over a humped back bridge when they were hackling along, 'cos the aerodynamics weren't quite right!

They apparently had enough time for for John to say, "I believe we are going to turn over!"

And Sears to respond" Yes, I think you're right!"

Designed In Britain: tested in Britain; made in Britain. No more American than any F 5000 or Group 7 car of the era!

One amusing footnote to this tale.

Apparently the head honchos at Dearborn were very interested in the concept of using motor sport to sell road cars and benefit the company name.

They were particularly taken by Le Mans.

So some envoys were sent to Mondello and sought audience with Enzo Ferrari
carrying a blank cheque!

The Commendatore was totally incensed and threw them out of his office!

How dare they even consider he would think of selling his beloved company to these uncouth philistines from America!

So Ford bought Lola, instead!

Redshoes. I worked for a main Austin/Morris agents in the 60s and the 1100 was the first to be fitted with hydrolastic suspension. The Mini was fitted with it a couple of years later. I'd like a quid for all the rear subframes I used to fit to them. Considering what other British built cars there were about in 1963 they drove and handled well at the time IMHO.

The old ADO 15 Gordon. Remember it well.

In fact, we bought a second user hydrolastic pimp from our local Stewart and Ardern, 'cos we were always repairing rear subframe bearings etc and we seemed to be the biggest consumers of that awful yellow-green fluid, next to them!

One ahum, "Service Fix" I developed, was to fit shims to the main trunnion bolts and drill and tap the cast iron hollow arm to take a standard grease nipple and fill the bloody arm with grease from the pneumatic greaser!

Took the play out and stopped that awful crunching noise, for a bit!

The later 1300 series using a downgraded version of S head was good; particularly the Wolseley, Riley and MG versions. I ran a Riley Kestrel for a bit, only since it was taxed, tested and ran OK; typical trader, part exchange.

We also looked after one of the rare Vanden Plas 1300s. Far too heavy lugging around all that leather and wood!

By that time, of course, BLMC were at the end of their effective shelf life, and such " Badge Engineering" was their last desperate attempt at the market.

My first 1275 s, in 1966 in fact was hydrolastic, but with anti-sway bars and Koni shockers up front and whilst the diehards claimed the old Moulton suspension was superior, I could march it through corners as quick as most: quicker invariably!

I drove Timo Makinen's Monte car in the very early 70s, a full-blown 1293 prepared of course at Abingdon and that was hydrolastic. Seemed to go alright. Well, it certainly scared the Stewart and Arderns Parts Managers wife OK! They had it on a promotion and he kindly -foolishly?- dropped into the garage on his way home to lunch.

In no time Feltham had sweet talked him into a drive, ejected all my mechs from under the bonnet, front, rear, boot etc to go and dribble in the workshop and went for a little spin.

I still (very rarely) remember this dear lady's white face and feel guilty: not a lot, you understand.

We had better not talk about the BLMC "Land crab" on here then. Although I can remember a couple of rally one's, and I also seem to remember Paddy Hopkirk coming second in the 1968 London Sydney rally in one. Although I don't know if that particular car was fitted with with hydrolastic suspension for the event. No doubt some anorak will soon tell us.
We used to have on our test route a terrible potholed road that we used to find noises, and you could drive the 1800 flat out in top gear over them and compared with the other BLMC cars at the time A60s with crap lever arm shocks (that were always knackered) wasn't a bad handling car, and far better than the Maxi (yuk)!!

In fact Gordon, I do agree; the old Hydrolastic Haggis, as chum called them, was not a bad car. Agree about the suspenders: put many - including Ford, Vauxhall, Rootes et al - to shame, at the time.

It was perhaps the other bits around the suspension which let the car down!

On the same basis, the Citrôens with ole-pneumatic suspension, like the ID range and the later more modern cars were superb; could be driven up and down a fairly high kerb at 70 mph with impunity.

Now, if they had had an engine from, say, Ferrari; styling by Carrozzeria Touring; and geometry by Chapman; plus trimming by Connolly, perhaps it would have been a World beater!

We also used to maintain an 1800 rally car that some romantic fool built with as many bits from Abingdon as he could source, as a copy of the few works cars. Ungainly brute.

But, in those days, we did many things for money!:awshucks: :awshucks:

Gordon, having read an article on the LSM by Evan Green the Landcrab did have the hydrolastic suspension - along with double-skinned floors so they would wear through less quickly. It could only do 95mph or so on its MGB spec engine but would do that on any road (or near (?) approximation!). They had a problem near the end when an apprentice doing a spanner check tightened the hub nuts and a wheel fell off, and lost time while replacement parts were flown out and dropped from a plane.

AH! the anorak I was waiting for !! :rofl:

You're welcome, I think... The LSM along with the Redex/Ampol round Australia trials is something that really fascinates me, and it's not often you see a first hand account from a competitor who can write as well as Evan Green. Mind you a true anorak would be able to tell you if it was the left or right side the wheel fell off, I only remember snippets so can't truly claim that title!

1. Jaguar E-type
2. Austin 7
3. Rover 2000
4. Range Rover (original) The Land Rover should be here not the Rangey. There is a statistic somewhere that gives the percentage of the worlds population that saw a Land Rover before any other four wheeled vehicle, it was an impressive figure
5. Nissan Bluebird (built in Sunderland, which they reckon: "showed Britain could still make cars") Oh, please. This is just a sop to the 'Toons. It was crap.
6. Jaguar XJ6
7. Morris Minor
8. Mini
9. Jensen FF
10. Jaguar XK120
11. Rover SD1
12. Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost
13. Lotus Elan
14. Land Rover (original)
15. Ford Lotus Cortina Why?
16. Ford GT40
17. Bentley R-Type Continental
18. Bentley 3-litre
19. Austin 1100
20. Aston Martin DB5



Where's the London taxi in that list?

875 Looking at the spec of the "crabs" they were fitted with Koni shocks front and rear. One thing I can't find out is what did Evan die of as I note he was only in his 60s. And Slippy, agreed I would certainly have put the Land Rover in but not the Chelsea tractor !

Where's the MGB or Midget? Two great affordable sports cars which sold 100s of 1000s and many are still going today.

And the TR2, Healey BN1, 2 etc; bearing in mind the rally successes of the 3000 MK II with such as Altonan driving.

And the MGA Twin Cam?

And if the Jenson Intercepter FF is there (of which they sold about three!), surely the 1940s cars of Reid Railton simply have to be there, since they were groundbreaking in technology and appearance terms?

And this, to me, is the problem with such lists: they are wholly subjective and can only be graded by personal preference.

It's like saying "What were the best British Aircraft?" Most would probably want to list Spit; Concord and Harrier; however, what about XXXXXXXXXXXXXX etc??

Agree about the Spridgets; got to, really as I used to race one! And had at least three as road cars.

And this, to me, is the problem with such lists: they are wholly subjective and can only be graded by personal preference.

Exactly. And on a nit-picking point, why only the Austin 1100? The Morris came first.

I'd put the Gordon Keeble on that list (although it might not be allowed because of its American engine) instead of both the DB5 and the Jensen, both of which were lorries in comparison.

Part of me thinks the Austin Ambassador should be there, just as an object (abject?) lesson in how not to make a car and, at least in part, how to herald the death of a national car industry.

lotus esprit
jaguar E-type
caterham 7 / lotus 7
lotus cortina
lotus elan
land rover
range rover
jaguar MK2
aston martin DB5
ford GT40
aston martin vantage(not the sexy little new one, the mid 1990's 2 ton 550bhp rocketpowered palace, man that car is just the business.)
zytek 07S, the loveliest racing car of all time

And if the Jenson Intercepter FF is there (of which they sold about three!), surely the 1940s cars of Reid Railton simply have to be there, since they were groundbreaking in technology and appearance terms?

And this, to me, is the problem with such lists: they are wholly subjective and can only be graded by personal preference.

It's like saying "What were the best British Aircraft?" Most would probably want to list Spit; Concord and Harrier; however, what about XXXXXXXXXXXXXX etc??


I agree that these lists are never definitive, but that's part of the fun. TV list programmes are very much in vogue at the moment! A best British aircraft list is a good idea too. ;)

I agree that the MGB should probably be in there and, as Slippy Diff says, the Range Rover and Land Rover should probably swap places. I think the justification for the Range Rover being so high was that it invented a whole new type of car - the 4x4 for the road - which as far as I'm concerned would be a piece of evidence that should be used to banish it from the list for ever more!

Just as an idea, what about the Aston Martin DB7? The original wasn't perfect but it did basically save the company and provided the basis for the current model family. And the design still looks fantastic.

I agree that these lists are never definitive, but that's part of the fun.
Spot on - they're generated surely to provoke arguments down the pub, or on forums, apparently ;-)

I'll chuck in my threepennethworth for the Jaguar XK120 - having only seen one for the first time at Autosport 2008 I have to say it's devestatingly attractive. Has that waist-to-hip-like curve.

And the Cortina should have been higher. Because you never forget your first love :wuv1:

Yes, Mosler, the XK120 was a pretty lovely looking car.

The first time I saw one was in 1952: temporary import by a US entertainer.

Although the car was first made in 1948, for years, they all went to to the USA!

Was offered a white Roadster with a brand new Jag factory engine in 1960 for £120: where did a 19 year old earning £9/week find that sort of cash?

:drool:

Colin Chapman was way ahead of the opposition with the Lotus Elite - if only he could have sold them cheaper than an E type Jaguar!

Shame he didn't think of supplying oilskins as standard!

I think that's a tad unfair - maybe gross exageration?

Not really: the doors didn't fit and the car leaked like a sieve.

A business acquaintance of mine in Norwich used to be a senior Marketing Manager for Lotus when they moved to Hethel.

On his desk, he had a framed Brockelbank cartoon, showinga stream of trucks delivering raw materials to a factory complete with smokestacks, which was built right next to a steep cliff.

As the cars came out of the factory: they fell down the cliff and were destroyed. The cartoon was intended to represent modern planned obsolescence.

Brockelbank gave the signed original to Chapman at the request of one of the other directors: 'cos it typified his view of owners. He totally hated them!

Really, the original Elite was a de-tuned race car.The Climax engine was problematical too.

Not actually suitable for road use day in day out.

The E Type, of course, was.

Haven't taken ours out in the wet! Hope its been sorted over the years. Having had several assorted Lotus over the years nothing can surprise -I hope! :rotate:

Don't forget your wellies when you do!
;)

Don't get me wrong. The original Elite encapsulated Chapman's design ethos: light; excellent roadholding; good performance mainly because of the power to weight ratio.

"Chunky" tended to design just to last one Grande Epreuve: before things broke!

Which was not a lot of use in a road car!

Unfortunately, it also pointed up the flaws in Lotus attempts at even small volume production.

Still, as you say, after all these years it ought to be marginally sorted by this time!

Perhaps the Elan was a more acceptable "Everyday" car: once Lotus had sorted out minor irritations like the read driveshaft bungies tying themselves in knots if you went away from stationary too dramatically!

And the fuel frothing because the Rubber O ring plates were so badly designed. Where the carbs hand't actually fallen off as the manifold fractured due to the weight of a pair of 40 DCOEs shaking like a wet jelly!

Same prob with the Lotus Cortina until the bonded joint plates arrived.

Jaguar E-type
Morris Minor
Aston Martin DB5
Jaguar XJ6
Mini

Channel 4 are having another go at this: http://www.channel4.com/4car/gl/gallery/feature/23840/11 You can vote for your choice, but only if it agrees with theirs!

A Maxi "ahead of its time" :) "Yeah" right, with that cable operated gear change it was a pain in the arse :rofl:

The E-Type and the MGB are in the '70s. The best versions were in the '60s. The '70s-'80s list is very long, the sixties too short. Dimbos.

surely jaguar xjs should be on there.. at least as high as the XJ6 as it was the 'car that saved jaguar'

Not for mine - it was after all the car the spy photographer dismissed as "surely they won't be making that ugly thing" wasn't it? What car in the list of 20 would you exclude?

i would go for one of the not totally british ones - nissan bluebird or ford GT40

Fair comment particularly the Bluebird!

it depends whether you count british as made in britain or owned by british

How can you have a list like this without including a Morgan? I once had a 1960s Morgan Plus 4 with the Triumph TR2 engine and though it was fantastic at the time. :)