McLaren M 4A & 4B

Hi all,
I'm looking for some history for my Mclaren M4A Cassis number 200-13F.
I know it was an F-2 "Chequered Flag" car but I don't know who drove the car or what races it competed in.
Any one out there with this type of information?
Thanks for the help!

My records give 200-20 and 200-22 as numbers of the Chequered Flag F2 cars, but I don't have a note of the number of their F3 car(s)

F3 cars were driven by Mike Walker & Ian Ashley in 1968.I have photos but no chassis numbers.Not sure when either Autosport or MN started printing the serial nos,but I no longer have copies back that far anyway.My technical knowledge is not up to much,but I guess these cars could be converted F2/F3/FA simply by changing the engine? Certainly happened with Brabhams,and a Shannon started life as an F1 and later ran in F3!

F3 cars were driven by Mike Walker & Ian Ashley in 1968.I have photos but no chassis numbers.Not sure when either Autosport or MN started printing the serial nos,but I no longer have copies back that far anyway.My technical knowledge is not up to much,but I guess these cars could be converted F2/F3/FA simply by changing the engine? Certainly happened with Brabhams,and a Shannon started life as an F1 and later ran in F3!

Do you have any photos of the Scalextric sponsored cars?
I think they only sponsored the F3 cars?

As a former Scalextric collector (around 2,000 different cars, prior to becoming the Shannon owner!) I've always been interested in the Chequered Flag Scalextric M4s which Scalextric modelled as the Team Car, in slightly larger scale than usual to accomodate the largest motor they had!

A friend reported seeing the bodywork somewhere but could never remember where it was.........

Do you have any photos of the Scalextric sponsored cars?
I think they only sponsored the F3 cars?

As a former Scalextric collector (around 2,000 different cars, prior to becoming the Shannon owner!) I've always been interested in the Chequered Flag Scalextric M4s which Scalextric modelled as the Team Car, in slightly larger scale than usual to accomodate the largest motor they had!

A friend reported seeing the bodywork somewhere but could never remember where it was.........Think I have at least I paddock shot Peter.Only had an instamatic in those days! Yes,only the F3 team was sponsored by Scalextric,I don't remember them making a model of the M4A,but I had Airfix slot cars and had by then passed them on to my younger brother,who went on to collect some trophies at slot car racing!

Sorry only photo I have is not much use.Another 2 were just of the drivers. British GP meeting 1968.
http://img460.imageshack.us/img460/9820/ashleymclaren2bc.th.jpg (http://img460.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ashleymclaren2bc.jpg)

Rob, nice shot of Ian Ashley in the M4A. F3 and F2 cars must have been identical except for the engine/gearbox?

:chflag:

Rob, nice shot of Ian Ashley in the M4A. F3 and F2 cars must have been identical except for the engine/gearbox?

:chflag:

Nice picture Rob.

Apart from engine & gearbox, F2 cars might have had different: wheels; brakes; fuel tanks & engine covers - as far as I remember those are the differences between BT15 & BT16 Brabhams, which must be similar?

If races in one series were far less frequent than the other, converting the cars could have been viable - and you could run it in F3 with some of the F2 components without a huge weight penalty.

I've never heard of an M4 F3 car being for sale, they are always F2s - of course that doesn't mean there aren't any around but it does suggest that upgrading them is an option.

I have to say that I am rather confused by this old thread. I was recently at Cadwell Park where I saw David Caplowe's M4A. I was given to understand that there were only 2 M4As built, these being the works cars. I was advised that the customer cars were M4Bs. Have I been informed incorrectly?

I was given to understand that there were only 2 M4As built, these being the works cars. I was advised that the customer cars were M4Bs. Have I been informed incorrectly?
I think you probably have
It would, I think, be correct to say that McLaren built only two M4As. Later cars with 200 c/no prefixes were built by Trojan but still called M4As

Ah, thanks, David; so 2 original cars with Mclaren plates then? I think Caplowes car was M4A/2. Does that make sense?

Ah, thanks, David; so 2 original cars with Mclaren plates then? I think Caplowes car was M4A/2. Does that make sense?
What is this - a chatroom? :)
Yes, from memory M4A/1 was the works car driven by Bruce, and M4A/2 the John Coombs one which Courage raced. And - without checking - I'm pretty sure Coplowe's car is the ex-Courage

What is this - a chatroom? :)

Just a coincidence, but since you were here, I knew you would have the answer, if I asked! ;)

I've got another question now! Were there any other differences between the two original cars, and those built by Trojan (apart from the chassis nos, that is!)?

PS, Yes, sorry, Coplowe! (typo!)

I'll have to leave someone else to answer that question, though I'm sure there would have been identifiable differences

I used to own M4A-2 about 10/12 years ago.
Had to sell it because I just couldn't fit in the car; it went through a Coys sale where they managed to sell it a stupid low price....
Wasn't there to control it, my fault.

Hello All,
First time user :
Is there, or has there been a chassis list on the McLaren M4A's , B's and F3
Pictures??
I have a car in the States. The Last owner purhased the car from Skeeter McKitterick in LA in 1970/71. It was disassembled about that time and put back togeather in The late 90's.
I was told it ran in Formula B/c with an Auto delta Alfa engine and was may be painted Red.
anybody remember the car ? Who did Skeeter get the car from?



Thank you
Tony

Welcome Tony and a good point, we've rather overlooked McLarens on this forum, especially the M4
Do you have a chassis number for your car?

I have a lot of gaps in my records but here's a start

Two cars built by McLaren themselves
M4A-1 Works F2 car 1967
M4A-2 John Coombs for Piers Courage 1967 by 1970-71 with Len Goodwin NZ

Trojan construction

200-01 to 200-08 unknown
200-09E late 67 Jim Palmer then to John Osborne. 1969 Burke for Macrow and Costanzo, 1971 Alfredo Costanzo
200-10E not known
200-11E Lythgoe: Alan Rollinson 1967, Robs Lamplough
200-12E not known
200-13E not known
200-14E Graeme Lawrence [Tasman series]
200-15F 1968: Chequered Flag; 1969 Chuck Kirkbride (FB; USA) retained to 1972
200-16F 1968: Chequered Flag F3 car
200-17F 1968: Ford France F2: Schlesser, spare car
200-18F 1968: Ford France F2: Schlesser
200-19F 1968: Ford France F2: Ligier
200-20F 1968: Chequered Flag F2: Widdows
200-21F 1968: Chequered Flag F3 car I think, this or other F3 car sold to Bill Stone 1969
200-22F 1968: Chequered Flag F2 Lawrence
200-23 to 200-26 unknown
200-27B 1968: Chuck Dietrich FB

Unknown FB cars in 1968:
Brian Robertson, retained 1969
Martin Sellars
Henry Hester

Unknown FB/F2 cars in 1969
Massoneri [French hillclimbs presume ex Ford France car]
Dow Byers [LA area retained 1970]
Dick Drexler [California retained to 1972 at least]

Unknown FB cars 1970
Max Callicott retained to 1973 at least
Phil Lester [Van Nuys CA, with Alfa engine]
R.Lloyd [LA]

Chris

Chris,

After the Tasman M4A-2 was sold to Niel Allen and logbook applied for with CAMS 27-3-1968 , FVA eng. no. 7006. Niel ran this car and an article in Racing Car News June 1968 advises a new chassis[ tub] was to be installed .
This car was raced untill the massive accident which left the eng. and box in one place and Niel still strapped into the rest .
The rest of the following is being persued by myself at the moment for clarification.

The M4A and an M4C were sold by N.E.Allen [ Automotive Industries] Pty Ltd. and the M4A went to Pat Burke Racing
on 29th Jan 1970. and Len Goodwin of Australia , not N.Z. ,ran the car before , I think ,Warwick Brown had a few runs in it.

Can't remember seeing car in action again with anybody , and car re-surfaced when purchased back from ???, by Modena Collection [ Pat Burke ] , I have just finished speaking to Peter Molloy who looked after the car in period and rebuilt it in the late 1980's , he can't remember if they bought it back or had never sold it.

When financial stress overcame the Pat Burke empire the car was consigned to auction at Monaco circa 1990 , never seen again. The car sold still retained chassis plate , or transferred to newer components , Peter Molloy advised that Piers Courage had basically a spare complete car which Niel Allen also purchased.
From memory the spare FVA was purchased by the Late Glynn Scott for his Bowin P3 FVA.
More on the M4C later.

At The Tasman Revival an M4A was over from NZ and from memory it was ex Jo Schlessor and 200-18F.

Bryan.

200-09E , your number , this car wasn't associated with Pat Burke Racing , this would be [ spelling] Tony Osborne , Argo Racing based in Victoria , then I think to the late Ken Hastings , not a clue after that. Youhave just given me a car to look for , I had forgotten about it.
Bryan.

Bryan

How would 200-06 sit for the Pat Burke car? I have a single entry in my records against Macrow's name for this in 1969. Could this be the Courage spare car that Neil Allen bought?

Chris

According to my contemporary notes, I’ve always had had the Jim Palmer car down as the ex-McLaren works car M4A/1. To Palmer for ’68 Tasman series; then 1968-70 to Osborne for Macrow & Costanzo; and 1970-71 Pat Burke/Warwick Brown.

For M4A/2 after Courage I have 1968/69 Neil Allen/F Gibson, then 1970/71 Pat Burke/L Goodwin.

Others with new chassis in 1968 were:
M Payne – 1600cc Ford, for F2.
John Bosomworth - chassis specially lengthened for Buick V8, known as M4A Special, for F Libre racing.

Also,
The ex-Chequered Flag/ Bill Stone F3 car - in 1970 with T.Phillip, 1600cc Ford, UK hillclimbs.

20018F ex-Schlesser – in 1971 with G Schafer (Switzerland), FVA, F2.

20020F Chequered Flag/Widdowes – wrecked at Crystal Palace 3.6.68 & replacement chassis needed.

The Graeme Lawrence 1968/69 Tasman car - with Frank Radisich 1969/70 Tasman; then 1971/72 Jan Bussell (Malaysia), F Libre, crashed in 1972 & possibly written off.

Other unknown cars:
1968 – M Eyerley – FB

1971 – C Millis/K Hastings and 1972 K Hastings (Australia)

1972 – D Heney (New Zealand)

1975 – J Hunt (UK, sprint)

There was also the McLaren built M4B/1 with 2-litre BRM V8 engine used by Bruce in early 1967 GP’s before being destroyed by fire.

I hope that horizon (warm welcome h) doesn't mind but I have found an old thread on this subject which I have merged onto the top of this thread. I'm also sure that I have some pics somewhere of one of the two original cars which I'll put up when I find them!

The info I have so far is from Peter Herbert (NZ)
Chassis #1 B.McLaren car,Then to J Palmer nz for 68 tasman
#2 Piers courage F2 car (chassis written off) replacement chassis was courages tasman car. won Longford
#3 Chequered Flag F3, sold as Twin cam
#4 - ???/
# 10 T/c
# 11 Rollinson
# 12?
#13 Chequered flag F2, Now with T.Lee.usa
#14 G. Lawrence FVA Tasman car, Now with P. Herbert NZ
#15 ?
#16 Eccurie Intersport F2
#17 Eccurie Intersport F2,
# 18 Eccurie intersport F2 , Jarrard larousse
# 19 ?
#20 Robin Widdows, chequered Flag F2
# 23 Now with R. Griot usa, F2
# 23-24??
# 26 Martin sellers ?? FB
#27 chuck Deitrich FB

Can anybody fill in the gaps??

I know the early M4's (4 to 6 cars) were built a little different in regards to suspension design and design of some of the outer pickup points in the tub are different from of the later cars. WHY ?? mcLaren v's Trojan?

Regards
Tony

Chuck Dietrich had two cars: the first was 200-10 for 1967 and went to Henry Hester for 1968 and maybe for 1969. I have some copy correspondence between Trojan and Hester regarding this car.

The numbering of these cars is a difficulty. Two cars were built by McLaren and had BMMR chassis plates M4A-1 and M4A-2. Then Trojan built cars but I don't know where their numbering started - maybe 200-1 but just as likely they left a gap (as they did on the Can-Am McLarens) so may have started from 200-3 or even as high as 200-6.

John, could we rename this thread "McLaren M4A and M4B"? (Yes, done - JT) The M4B notation was used on three cars: by BMMR for their F1 car built on a M4A tub, by Trojan for the FB version of the M4A and by Bosomworth for his Trojan-built hillclimb special.

Chassis 200/10/B chuck Dietrich's 67 scca National championship car was in a "victory lane" mag for sale in Feb. 2007. This car is in Cailf. and was racing at Infinion (sears point) last weekend.

Chris ,

No , to your 200-06 for Pat Burke .

I have just unearthed a second application / file going back to 30-10-1984 , application by Tony Armstrong from Victoria.
M4A-1 , Jim Palmer N.Z. Dec. 1967- July 1968.
Thence [ all in Australia]
July 1968-Aug.1971, Argo Racing .
Aug.1971-Jan. 1972 , Clive Millis .
Jan. 1972-Aug. 1973 , Ken Hastings .
Aug. 1973-Nov. 1982 , John Sheppard.
Then the applicant , Tony Armstrong.

I haven't a clue about the car after this, however the application has photos which show the car fully built up complete with Cosworth FVA listed as eng.

Further to the Pat Burke ex Courage / Niel Allen car M4A-2 ,as advised yesterday Peter Molloy was the chief mechanic with the car in period , R.C.N . magazine reports mid. 1968 that chassis was tired and a radius rod had pulled out at Lakside , and a new tub was to be installed and this would incorporate mountings for a full Michael Henderson safety harness , Peter says bulldust , didn't happen , however Niel Allen had the mother and father of all accidents in the car and was only saved by the harness , despite having very seious injuries to his legs etc.that kept him out of racng for months , so I think the chassis must have been changed , then they needed another new tub after the big accident.
Then the car was sold to Pat Burke Racing , however when Niel sold the car the advert. listed an M4A and an M4C , which Peter Molloy can't remember either , however I also have the Bowin chassis list , and in the list is an entry 6-7-70 , cutomer , Pat Burke Racing , MCB Mono , chassis no. MBC -111-70 , chassis only. [ not typo ]
Now this car still exists as a roller in Tasmania , it appears on an Oran Park entry list for a round of the Van Heusen F2 series July 1974.

Bryan.

The ex Lawrence car was also here , and was restored here , bought over from NZ by Gary Simkin on behalf of Peter Addison [ current president HSRCA ] they restored it with FVA etc. then sold later and I think back to NZ , Peter Herberts name rings bells.

I don't think Graeme Lawrence's M4A FVA 200/14 and Jan Bussell's M4C/1 were one and the same. GL built his up at the factory while Jan bought his as a rolling chassis from Howden Ganley. GL's car was assembled in March 1968, shipped to NZ for the national championships and then shipped to Singapore (with Roly Levis and another Brabham BT23C) and run in the Singapore Grand Prix and the Selangor Grand Prix over Easter 1969 (where GL won both races and Roly set FTD). Jan acquired his McLaren in late 1971 and won in Macao that year.

Jan's M4C: The rolling chassis had been configured for a smaller Ford engine so Ganley modified the chassis to accommodate the larger Ford Twin Cam engine for Jan. The car was then shipped to Singapore and a Vegantune Twin Cam engine then shoehorned into the chassis for Macao and Southeast Asian races.
Jan's Mclaren is now at the Fremantle Motor Musuem. It was discovered in Kuala Lumpur some yeats ago and shipped back to England, still wearing Jan’s FJB4 engraved on the chassis plate.

Eli
According to my contemporary notes, I’ve always had had the Jim Palmer car down as the ex-McLaren works car M4A/1. To Palmer for ’68 Tasman series; then 1968-70 to Osborne for Macrow & Costanzo; and 1970-71 Pat Burke/Warwick Brown.

For M4A/2 after Courage I have 1968/69 Neil Allen/F Gibson, then 1970/71 Pat Burke/L Goodwin.

Others with new chassis in 1968 were:
M Payne – 1600cc Ford, for F2.
John Bosomworth - chassis specially lengthened for Buick V8, known as M4A Special, for F Libre racing.

Also,
The ex-Chequered Flag/ Bill Stone F3 car - in 1970 with T.Phillip, 1600cc Ford, UK hillclimbs.

20018F ex-Schlesser – in 1971 with G Schafer (Switzerland), FVA, F2.

20020F Chequered Flag/Widdowes – wrecked at Crystal Palace 3.6.68 & replacement chassis needed.

The Graeme Lawrence 1968/69 Tasman car - with Frank Radisich 1969/70 Tasman; then 1971/72 Jan Bussell (Malaysia), F Libre, crashed in 1972 & possibly written off.

Other unknown cars:
1968 – M Eyerley – FB

1971 – C Millis/K Hastings and 1972 K Hastings (Australia)

1972 – D Heney (New Zealand)

1975 – J Hunt (UK, sprint)

There was also the McLaren built M4B/1 with 2-litre BRM V8 engine used by Bruce in early 1967 GP’s before being destroyed by fire.

I have just unearthed the file on the Lawrence car .
According to the applicant 1st event Pukekohe Nov. 1968.
Winner of Selangor G.P. Singapore G.P. and Kuala Lumpur G.P.
Sold to Frank Radisich ,

Then we have proof in the form of the NZ registration papers.
Neil Heney , 14th Aug 1972 .
Jon Tindall Warring 28th June 197? .
Ross John Calgher , 18th Feb. 1974 .
George Niccol Begg , 3rd Oct 1978.
Andrew Cunningham 10th Jun/July ???1983.

The logbook application and the NZ registration papers call out chassis number as M4A-14 .

Imported in Australia and application lodged Fe. 1988.

Gone back to NZ.

The Kuala Lumpur Grand Prix sounds like something out of the Ustinov script in the Grand Prix du Roc.

There was only one permanent circuit in Selangor after the PJ Industrial track was abandoned and that was the Batu Tiga track at Shah Alam (later called the Shah Alam Circuit). Graeme raced in Selangor only once in 1969. It would be quite interesting to find out about this Kuala Lumpur Grand Prix.

Graeme only participated in the April events in Singapore and Malaysia.
Southeast Asian circuit races for 1969 included:
Singapore – Singapore Grand Prix 4-6th April 1969
Selangor – Selangor Grand Prix 13th April 1969

Selangor – Malaysian Grand Prix – 14th Sept – cancelled due to racial riots
Selangor - Grand Prix International, Batu Tiga 25-26 October 1969
National Open Championships, Batu Tiga –20-21st December 1969

I have just unearthed the file on the Lawrence car .
According to the applicant 1st event Pukekohe Nov. 1968.
Winner of Selangor G.P. Singapore G.P. and Kuala Lumpur G.P.
Sold to Frank Radisich ,

Then we have proof in the form of the NZ registration papers.
Neil Heney , 14th Aug 1972 .
Jon Tindall Warring 28th June 197? .
Ross John Calgher , 18th Feb. 1974 .
George Niccol Begg , 3rd Oct 1978.
Andrew Cunningham 10th Jun/July ???1983.

The logbook application and the NZ registration papers call out chassis number as M4A-14 .

Imported in Australia and application lodged Fe. 1988.

Gone back to NZ.

Hi Tony thanks for email heads up, Richard Griots car is Chassis #15, also a chequered flag F2 car now here in the states together again with my #13
Ciao, Tom

The Kuala Lumpur Grand Prix sounds like something out of the Ustinov script in the Grand Prix du Roc.

There was only one permanent circuit in Selangor after the PJ Industrial track was abandoned and that was the Batu Tiga track at Shah Alam (later called the Shah Alam Circuit). Graeme raced in Selangor only once in 1969. It would be quite interesting to find out about this Kuala Lumpur Grand Prix.

Just spotted in 16th September 1966 Autosport the following:

"The Fifth Tunku Abdul Rahman Circuit Races were held on 3rd and 4th September on a temporary circuit at Batu Tiga, 12 miles outside Kuala Lumpur. The main event of the weekend, a 158-mile Formula Libre race for the Rothmans Challenge Trophy, resulted in an easy win for Lee Han Seng's new Brabham BT16"

:relax:

None of the Petaling Jaya or Batu Tiga events were ever referred to as the Kuala Lumpur Grand Prix. The earlier races (60 till 63), referred to as The Tunku Abdul Rahman Circuit Races, were at a street track at the Diplomatic Enclave/Kenny Hill (closer to KL). This was subsequently shifted to a factory estate in Petaling Jaya (1964 until the permanent Batu Tiga circuit was completed in 67). The 66 event referred to in AS was:

The 2.075 mile Sungei Renggam circuit with macadamized track. The fifth Tunku Abdul Rahman Circuit Races were held over the weekend of 3rd and 4th September at this Batu Tiga Industrial Estate site. As with previous years, the Rothmans Challenge Trophy, the main event, would be for Formula Libre cars over 75 laps or 158 miles. The Sungei Renggam track was a new but temporary site, which according to competitors, was still far better than the one at the Petaling Jaya Industrial park held the previous year – faster and safer and with spectator capacity of 50,000. For the spectator, access from Kuala Lumpur was quite easy via the Federal Highway, and for $10 per ticket, one could have grandstand access, inclusive of parking!

The Lee Han Seng Brabham was a BT18 (not a BT16), a replacement for his Lotus 22.

Eli

200-17F 1968: Ford France F2: Schlesser, spare car
200-18F 1968: Ford France F2: Schlesser
200-19F 1968: Ford France F2: Ligier

Unknown FB/F2 cars in 1969
Massoneri [French hillclimbs presume ex Ford France car]

ChrisAlso,
20018F ex-Schlesser – in 1971 with G Schafer (Switzerland), FVA, F2.I can fill a gap here. Echappement May 1969 reports on the first few hillclimbs of the 1969 season and at La Roquette mentions 'Fontes' également sur une formule 2 Mc Laren ayant appartenu au regretté Schlesser (also Fontes with a formula 2 McLaren that belonged to the late Schlesser).

Also, Roger Rivoire had a ex-Schlesser McLaren F2 in French hillclimbs in 1972.

I would guess that 'Massoneri' is Jean-Marc Massoneri. I don't know who Fontes is.

Allen

I just did a bit of googling and it turns out (http://www.forum-auto.com/sport-auto/theme40/sujet378443.htm) that Massoneri's McLaren was a sports car, not a F2 car.

18F was at Eastern Creek for the last Tasman Revival , history stated as ex J. Schlesser, I have photo's somewhere , it looked very good and was being tended by Wally Willmot , ex F1 McLaren and I had a good chat with him whilst we groped around to read the chassis plate.
Car is domiciled in NZ , owned by Lindsay O'Donnell , I have a feeling Ken Smith ran it in a race or three at the meeting .

I hope 'horizon' is still around because I've found his car racing in 1969. Skeeter McKitterick did indeed race a McLaren M4A-Alfa in 1969 FB. The Sebring entry list confirms that it was Red and a M4A.

Also in McLarens in 1969 FB were:

* Brian Robertson (retained from 1968)
* Martin Sellers (retained from 1968)
* Byers (known as Jack and also as Dow)
* Stan Huddleston (just seen once, at Riverside in April)
* Ron Attig (raced twice, at the early season California races)
* Judd Mangurian (just seen once, at Sears Point in June)

Also possibly relevant is that Chequered Flag advertised four M4As in Autoweek in January 1969. We know at least one of those was sold to the US.

Hi Allan,
Still here......I've been trying to find Skeeter Mckitterick. Any help would be great. Skeeter just wrote a nice Story about racing with the late/great Paul Newman at Le mans.

This page (http://www.driverstalkradio.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=123&Itemid=37) says he lives in Aptos, CA, so have you tried this address (http://www.scbuild.com/contractor_detail.cfm?id=4558)?

Horizon

If you do call him, rather than we all hassle him, please can you also ask him to email me at chris[AT]oldracingcars[DOT]com
as I'd like to talk to him about his Ralt RT1 from 1978-79

Chris

Allan and Chris,
Yes, Been calling for a while......I'll send a fax

Best
Tony

I just stumbled across him at VRL as well:

http://www.myvrl.com/profile/SkeeterMcKitterick

There is a photo of Len Goodwin in his first Gold Star race in the M4A at Symmons Plains on my website for those interested:
http://members.optusnet.com.au/dandsshaw/images/gallery/70gallery.html