Yamaha's last chance with Rossi.

http://moto.gpupdate.net/en/news/2007/11/09/rossi-ready-to-consider-move-to-ducati/

so he got the tyres now he wants the engine, would be interesting how he would fit in at Ducati, 3 bikes one of the current riders to D'Antin :Shrug:.

Doin think Vale will change until next year (09)

Remember that when he swopped to Yamaha before he signed he also was very close to signing with Ducati then.

But if you read his books, the reason was simple and was the same reason he left Honda, if he won on a Duke it would be the Duke winning with Vale on it, he was expected to win on a Honda. On a Yam coz it was considered inferiior, Vale was winning! And teh team knew it and were prepared to take that attustude with them.

I think that Stoner is experiencing this a little, no one really knows if its really just that Casey is mega quick, I think his comparison with Loris says he is, but then the new bike was maybe not as good for Loris, who knows!

For whatever reasons, Stoner found himself in the perfect situation this year. It was like the bike was built from the ground up just for him even though he hadn't even signed for the team when the bike was developed. Honda tried to build a bike around Pedrosa but didn't have near the success that Ducati had basically by shear luck.

Having such a neat fit between bike/rider/tyres/team meant for the first time in his career Stoner didn't have to override the bike to get results. So all of a sudden Stoner the "crasher" didn't crash any more. He produced 18 consecutive point scoring rides (never been done before) at an average of 20.38 points per round. Thats averaging better than 2nd place in every race. He scored 367 points, equaling Rossi as the largest ever season points tally. He beat 2nd place by 125 points. THAT IS 5 FULL RACES!

Any way you look at it, regardless of bikes, tyres or any other factors, that is an absolutely stunning performance by Stoner and the Ducati team as a whole.

So you have two factors at play. Out front is Stoner displaying absolute consistency. And behind him every other single rider in the field was consistently inconsistent (as Doohan used to say). By the third round Casey wasn't really fighting anyone for the title. He just had to do his thing, everyone behind him was fighting for the scraps. (of course they didn't know that at the time :)).

So where does that leave Rossi and Yamaha. On the face of it I would say they are in desperate need of a paddle. At the end of the season I would rank the Yammy as the fourth best bike behind Ducati, Honda and Suzuki. And only just in front of the Kawasaki. The difference is that all the other brands improved over the course of the season, while Yamaha stayed still or at worst went backwards. It was only the brilliance of Rossi that could get it anywhere near the front. But to do it he had to override the bike and either broke it or crashed. (sound familiar?).

Personally, I think that their deficit is too great to make up in one season. I think they will improved but I give Rossi no chance of winning the title next year. Will they get close enough to retain Rossi's services in 2009? Time will tell.

So assuming hypothetically that Stoner wins again next year. It would be three seasons since Rossi has won a title, the Italians would probably have made Casey a saint by then, and Vale wants to move to Ducati. Do they take him? I don't know. I hope so because I would love to see Casey and Vale head to head on the same bikes.

Great assessment there bestfit. Casey had all the right ingredients last year - an amazing bike, a friendly team around him, a relatively underperforming team-mate (the D'Antin guys matched Loris for a while), and a fair bit of talent himself. If anything the Kawasaki was as good as the Yamaha, if you compare the other Yamaha guys to de Puniet (who I'd rate as little more than a journeyman, certainly not worthy of leading a factory team).

I hope people now realise that Rossi didn't just win those 3 Honda titles because of the bike. In the last 2 years he has ridden brilliantly against the odds, in a situation where he had more to lose than gain. But, with 5 top-flight championships already, how much is he prepared to fight for one more? Options in rallying and other forms of car racing still exist. He's never seemed like someone who'd especially want to win on an Italian bike.

I think the break between Yamaha and Valentino Rossi has already happened, especially now that he has changed to Bridgestones. It was quit clear Yamaha wanted to continue with Michelin and VR didn't. As soon as Rossi has left Yamaha, Bridgestone will be dropped.

It is also going to be interesting to see what the treatment will be Rossi is going to get from Bridgestone. It wasn't like they were jumping up and down when it became clear that Rossi wanted to use their tyres. Bridgestone would be stupid not to use his knowledge, but they have had a long relationship with Ducati. So if the Bridgestone will not work under the Yamaha, who will be blamed?

I also agree with bestfit that Yamaha most probably will not be able to close the gap with Ducati.

Next year it could be all different. The new Honda could be a blinder, I wonder if VR still wants to go to Ducati if that's going to be the case.

Yamaha seem to go in cycles. Produce a good bike for a good rider for a couple of seasons, then they lose their way and drop down the field.

IMO Rossi is on a hiding to nothing in 2008 as the likes of Honda, Ducati, Suzuki and Kawasaki will all be very competitive next season and I just don't think Rossi and his team will be able to match them, even with Bridgestones.

From what Rossi has been saying, he doesn't appear very happy at Yamaha nowadays, and I don't think Yamaha will be terribly impressed with some of the soundbites coming out in the media recently.

He'll definetely be on the move at the end of next season.

IMO Rossi is on a hiding to nothing in 2008 as the likes of Honda, Ducati, Suzuki and Kawasaki will all be very competitive next season and I just don't think Rossi and his team will be able to match them, even with Bridgestones.
He will still be a championship contender next year!

Great post bestfit. I think that sums it up nicely.

The thing is, and I think bestfit mentioned this... Would Ducati want him?

On one hand, there's Stoner. He's 22, he's just won the MotoGP Championship, he's fast, he's happy at Ducati, he loves the bike, he's on a long term contract, which means he and the team will only mould together even further.

On the other hand, there's Rossi. Yes, he's won 7 championships, and he's fast. But if you ask me, this season has been a BIG revealer of character. In 2006 Hayden used a lot of luck on his part (and bad luck on Rossi's part) to win the championship. 2007 has shown what it feels like to be constantly on the back foot, chasing someone instead of being chased, and he doesn't like it. From what I've read in the media (and I know they exaggerate things), he's acting in a very immature way, blaming everything but himself for this season's problems. Sure, the Yamaha was far from its best in 2007, but perhaps the frustration of being on the back foot like he has been since Round 1 has got to him a little bit.

I find it ironic, too, that he is blaming the bike, the engine, the tyres etc. when he said this about Max Biaggi.
Biaggi blamed the bike, the tyres, the engine, and Rossi felt that Biaggi should have accepted that sometimes he was the one at fault.
Maybe Vale, you should consider that it might not be the bike, the tyres, the engine... But it's you?

Now don't get me wrong, I think Rossi is still far from past it, but sometimes its easier to admit when you've been beaten, instead of trying to shift the blame?

maybe it is that he has done evrything in Moto GP except for Kwaka and Duc, maybe he needs a new challenge and should give full-time rally a go.

Too be honest I think Mr Rossi is going the right way to end up un-wanted by anybody.

A few things to consider.
1. Michelin, who have taken him to all his premier class titles will be unlikely to want him back, and make no mistake they could easily be the rubber to have next year.
2. Yamaha like all Japanese companies are big on honour, and Rossi is not showing them much respect at all, they will quickly become fed up with his behaviour.
3. He will be te only Yamaha rider on Bridgestones, Brisgstone already have the World Champion and several other riders who can be Champion, why should they put extra effort into just one rider.
4. He is reaching the end of his career, why would Ducati or any other top team want a rider who only has a few more years at best when they can get a rider of similar and maybe even better skills for a fraction of the price and have them for the next ten years.

There is no doubt that Rossi is still a top rider, but compared to a couple of years ago when he dominated, he isn't at that level anymore and there are alot of good riders coming up to make his life even more difficult. If he doesn't win the championship next year it will be three years since his last win, will he win, I doubt it very much. He is going to struggle being the only Yamaha rider on Bridgestone tyres, he is going to struggle against Stoner, Pedrosa, Hayden, Lorenzo, the list goes on.

It could be a very tough year for Mr Rossi.

I think the teams will always be willing to give Rossi an offer if he's off contract. It could just come down to whether they'd get into a bidding war with a rival team.

True, there will always be teams willing to sign him, he's got the name and the status, but each year that goes by that he doesn't win the championship it will become less likely that teams will want him as badly or the teams that want him will be as good.

This year he has blamed the bike and the tyres, which is at least in part was fair, however he now has the tyres that he wants so one of his excuses is gone.

Maybe Vale, you should consider that it might not be the bike, the tyres, the engine... But it's you?


Yes, clearly. The standings back this statement up so well.

Hehe, two bad seasons and all of a sudden the greatest rider ever (allegedly) is not quite what he once was!

Give it up guys, everyone knows he has not been at his best but the bike was not really capable of winning last year, it was getting too hot which if you have any semblance of engineering knowledge you will know saps lots of power, (Foggy FP1 remember) and he lost a big advantage with losing the special deal only he had with Michelin I think too.

I dount he has lost any pace but you also have to remember he was a master of the rear end slide and controlling the tyres last in a race, that doesnt apply so much now.

Maybe we have finally seen the end of the Roberts, Lawson, Gardner, Schwantz, Rainey, Doohan, Criville, Rossi tyre spin era, he might have been the last man that could beenefit from it,

It seems you cant do that anymore and his biggest advantage is wiped out in a year.

God forbid how Toseland is gonna cope coz for me JT was amaster of riding from the rear end!!

I think if anyone thinks Rossi has lost his speed ought to go back and check his qualifying lap from China this year.

No, Rossi hasn't lost his speed. Although, I think the last two seasons have shown that he's not a god. Rossi needs to take a page out of Hayden's book and put his head down and get to work. No excuses. And in 2008 that means working with Yamaha not against them.

It is a different frustration for Rossi though. He and Burgess worked their arses off through 2004 and 2005 taking Yamaha back to the front again, to a position of dominance really. And suddenly the whole thing is thrown away with a chattering, overheating bike in the beginning of 2006 and a shoddy, useless, unreliable piece of junk for most of 2007. Not pleasant having all that thrown away and his vocal disappointment is justified.

Whereas Nicky isn't throwing away anything in a sense. He is an underdog. He knows he has to ride a bike designed for his teammate, he has limited input as a result and decides instead to just get on with things. Almost too gentlemanly really because he deserves so much better than the raw deal Honda give him.

Where Rossi is really struggling is that he has lost his mind game advantage over the other riders. Up until the last couple of years he won as much because he had the mental edge as because of riding or the bike, that edge has been lost.

I have been surprised that between Jerry and Rossi they haven't been able to deal with Yamaha, I remember when Mick Doohan was having problems with his bike he just stood up to Honda and told them to fix it, he never took it to the media and he got the results he wanted.

Rossi is every bit as fast as he has ever been, but he is now under pressure that he has never faced before, fast competition that he isn't able to intimidate and bike/tyre issues that he doesn't seem to be able to get a handle on.

This is why I don't think he will win another championship and I think he will continue to struggle.

Actually Burgess and Mick did very little tio improve the bike during their years together, the bike was pretty much in a very suimilar spec, it wasnt revolutionised by anyone.

The only thing Mick did do was use the screamer engine coz he knew he could ride it and use the technology of the electronics to improve the rideability of his bike, it wasnt necessarily quicker but in his mind he had an advantage and that counts for a lot.

Vale hasnt needed to have a mental edge this year coz he hasnt needed it, he aint been winning!! That edge only comes out when fighting for a title and he knew past mid sason he wasnt fighting for a title!

I think too many people are underestimating him, do you really think that if Vale had been on a Duke last uyear that Stoner would ahve beaten him once!

Where were the other Yamahas?? Answer that and tell me he isnt still a threat!

Honda riders were pretty much quick as each other before HRC brought new bits for the Repsol bikes and Barros caught out the works bikes a few times before the factory told him he wasnt allowed to beat a factory bike again!

Honda riders were pretty much quick as each other before HRC brought new bits for the Repsol bikes and Barros caught out the works bikes a few times before the factory told him he wasnt allowed to beat a factory bike again!

Maybe they should tell a few other riders the same thing. :)

Since Burgess left Repsol Honda at the end of 2003, the factory team has only won 7 GPs in total (Pedrosa 4, hayden 3), while Honda "satellite" teams have won 14 races. (Melandri 5, Gibenau 4, Tomada 2, Biaggi 1, Elias 1, Barros 1).

I think too many people are underestimating him, do you really think that if Vale had been on a Duke last uyear that Stoner would ahve beaten him once!

Perhaps youre also overrating him in the midst of Pedrosa and Stoner, and perhaps even Lorenzo next year. Do you really think had Stoner/Rossi been paired at Ducati that all races it wouldve been Rossi followed by Stoner? Saying Stoner wouldnt have beaten him once is a massive call to make.

Where were the other Yamahas?? Answer that and tell me he isnt still a threat!

Equally where were the other Ducati's compared to Stoner? IMO it says something that at the front of the grid it went Ducati-Honda-Yamaha, and the factory team mates further back were still Ducati-Honda-Yamaha.

Barros caught out the works bikes a few times before the factory told him he wasnt allowed to beat a factory bike again!

What makes you think he was given those orders? Stoner was in control of the championship, there was never any threat that a result such as Mugello would have lost it for him.

Saying Stoner wouldnt have beaten him once is a massive call to make.

I agree. Rossi and Stoner on the same bikes would be pretty even stevens...maybe. I'd venture to say that the Stoner-Ducati-Bridgestone combination is so good that Rossi would even have a tough time if on the same package. But I'm afraid we'll never know. The best we can hope for is both of them being on competitive bikes at the same time.

Barros makes me think that those were instructions given to him after the Mugello race, he to,d everyone on teh Saturday at Valencia!!

I really dont hink that Rossi would be beaten that often by Stoner on similar bikes

The only comparison you can roughly make is what he was like in 2006, he was quick yes, no doubt, but he crashed an awful lot, but he did push the LCR bike very hard and was extremely quick.

I am not syaing Vale would beat him every time, but maybe 60/40.

I think the comparison with Loris bears fruit only after three quarters of teh year when Loris was actually allowed to set the bike up the way he wanted to, he didnt really beat Casey but was much closer to him in real terms, and rememebr Loris was not a regular front runner in 06, would he have been without all the injuries??? I think maybe he would!

Would have been champ without the injuries probably.

I doubt it.

No doubts here. ;)

Would have been champ without the injuries probably.

Yes! He would have been champ! I believe he finished less than 25 points behind Nicky in 2006. I remember he finished only 15th at Assen and he wasn't at his best in Donington.

Rossi and Stoner on the same bikes would be pretty even stevens...

Maybe... Stoner was pretty fast. But Rossi on an equal bike and tyres would have beaten him every day of the week as he is ruthless in race-situations and he can overtake everywhere on the circuit, where Stoner has only been able to do that on the straights.

Maybe... Stoner was pretty fast. But Rossi on an equal bike and tyres would have beaten him every day of the week as he is ruthless in race-situations and he can overtake everywhere on the circuit, where Stoner has only been able to do that on the straights.

Did you watch Catalunya?

Did you watch Catalunya?

That is exactly what I'm talking about. Stoner had one good move when he went into the inside of Rossi when going into the long right hander which follows the first chicane, all his other moves where on the long start and finish straight or given the oportunity by Rossi when he was outbraking himself.

He has won an awfull lot of races this way, you can't deny that.

I'm not trying to bash your man Bestfit, but I'm trying to open peoples eyes by saying that this is an area he can improve.

Rossi couldnt finish all races ahead of Colin Edwards this year.

I'm not trying to bash your man Bestfit, but I'm trying to open peoples eyes by saying that this is an area he can improve.

I don't take it as a bash against Stoner, I just don't agree with you on this point. :)
Catalunya was a brilliant race and IMO put pay to the "he can only pass on the straights" theory. The two bikes were very evenly matched in that race, the Ducati had a (reduced) speed advantage and the Yamaha handled better. A major factor of the race was that they did pass each other all round the track, both riders mentioned it in their post race press releases. Stoner did pass Rossi on the straight but Rossi was also able to slipstream Stoner and pass him into turn 1 as well.

Valentino Rossi
Position: 2nd Time: +0.069
"What a race! Even if I'm disappointed not to win, it's a great emotion to be part of a race like that and fantastic fun. It really was an amazing battle to the end with many wonderful overtaking manoeuvres by both of us in all different parts of the track! Unfortunately I lost a bit of time at the start and then it was quite hard to pass Hopkins because he was fantastic on the brakes. Then with Stoner it was a great fight and honestly I couldn't have tried harder to win, but he was a very hard rival. There were some places were we could have been better today, not just on the straight but also in some corners, but anyway it was a great experience and it will help us to understand what we need to do to keep on improving. Yamaha and Michelin are working very hard and the fact that we could fight like this today to the very end showed this. Of course I'm sad because I've won a lot of times here in Montmelo and I wanted to win again, but like I said, I don't think I could have done anymore today! We know that we can beat Stoner but today he rode like a god and he's a fantastic rival, so congratulations to him."


CASEY STONER, winner, World Championship leader on 140 points
"Going into this weekend we weren't sure how things would go. At Mugello we had a few difficulties and we thought it might be the same here. On Friday we weren't exactly on the pace, we were losing a lot in a couple of areas. Fortunately, the team worked really hard, we came up with a solution on Saturday morning and since then we've kept the bike exactly the same. The whole team did a great job this weekend and proved wrong people who said we can't win on European tracks. There were some nice passing manoeuvres going on everywhere. All three of us had our strong points and our weak points around the circuit, I was just trying to minimise my weak points and cover my lines, and it worked out. It was such a close race, no one could go away, it was very, very enjoyable to be racing that close. It was really good because our bike was set up quite well for the braking points, so for Valentino to pass us he usually had to run wide and we were able to pass him back immediately a lot of times. The way the team has set up the bike for me is fantastic, and the Bridgestones worked great again, at a circuit where they've struggled in the past, so they've really changed things around. Today was another great race for us, I'm still not thinking about the championship, maybe later in the season we can really start aiming for that."

The thing is, the Stoner-Ducati-Bridgestone package was so good this year that it's tough not to think about the machine-tire advantage. In some ways, this has done a disservice to Stoner, as some have not given him the credit he deserves. And yes, he deserves a lot of credit, because he rode the darn thing and embarassed Capirossi at the same time. However, if he would have to fight for more victories the way he did at Catalunya he would have gained a lot more respect.

And I do see Gerben's point. But early in the season the Ducati power advantage was at it's most obvious. Unfortunately, we didn't get any more Catalunya like battles later in the year. Pedrosa's front straight pass of Stoner at Valencia shows that Honda at least closed the power gap some.

In some ways, this has done a disservice to Stoner, as some have not given him the credit he deserves. And yes, he deserves a lot of credit...

Has there ever been a World champion that deserved the title?

Hayden was lucky to get the title because most of his competitors were injured during the season and Rossi's Yamaha broke down one time to many...

Rossi's championships on the Yamaha were down to the fact he had the best team (Burgess) around him and the Honda was still set up for him so Hayden, Barros and Biaggi couldn't ride the darn thing. Furthermore, Honda failed to support Rossi's biggest thread, Gibernau.

Rossi won his championships on the four stroke Honda because that just was the best bike out there and his teammates weren't up to the job (yet).

Rossi won his two stroke championships, cause he was using the best Honda and the best team (read: Doohan bike, Doohan team).

Roberts won his title cause it was Rossi's first year (meaning he dropped it a lot) and all the others had way to many brake downs.

Criville won it because Doohan wasn't there.

Doohan won all his titles cause he was on the best bike with the best team and for most of the time he had very weak competition.

...


The above is all nonsense offcourse! They all deserved to win the title and they all deserve a lot of credit. Every WC will get some criticism, otherwise these forums wouldn't be any fun ;).

:beer:

Hayden on Rossi:

Q Last question is a Valentino Rossi question. I've been very surprised at the amount of hysteria associated with Valentino this year, and his public outcries about the tires and the bike and things like that. What's it been like from your perspective?

What do you mean when you say "hysteria?"

Q He's lashing out. He's clearly very frustrated.

Well. It's going to be hard for me to take a shot at a seven-time World Champion when he's had one bad year, and he's over there with a broken hand and a bad back. Our sport is the way it is. You're only as good as your last race. Like it or not, that's the truth. Yeah, he had a rough year. But I rode with that Yamaha. That Yamaha on Michelins package, you could see it wasn't for lack of effort on Valentino's part. He was definitely, at times, getting every bit of everything out of that bike and that package. Which you would expect. Which he should. That's what he gets paid the big bucks to do. I don't know about some of the stuff he said. Sure, emotions run high. There's times this year I've probably said stuff after the race that come out wrong. People interview you after a race, and it's pretty easy to get a guy to say the wrong things. Really, who am I to say what Valentino's got going on over there? Sure, you lose $58 million or whatever they say he lost to the taxes. If I lost that, I'm probably going to say a few things that come out the wrong way, too. Clearly it's been a hard year. But that doesn't give a guy an excuse. You've still got your sponsors, everybody you've got to represent. I don't know. That's a bit of a tough question, too. I don't need to motivate the guy. I'm sure he's going to come back next year on Bridgestones plenty strong. I know it'll be a big year. His legacy, he's not going to want to go out losing. Lorenzo's his teammate. Here we are, a long way from Qatar, and he's going to Bridgestones. Already it's got a lot of talk, and a lot of things going. It'll be interesting. I think people are already counting the days down to Qatar under the lights.

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2007/Nov/071127-69-4.htm

I think people are already counting the days down to Qatar under the lights.

104 days :laugh:

that many .. grrrrr . too many

WSBK is worse isn't it? Is there still like this one round in Febuary then like a month break then Phillip island then a 3 week break? Or did they get rid of that idea?

WSBK is worse isn't it? Is there still like this one round in Febuary then like a month break then Phillip island then a 3 week break? Or did they get rid of that idea?

PI is the week after! Than it's time for the first of the summer holidays!