Merger Imminent?

Hey gang,

Just a heads up, but multiple discussion boards, as well as sources within the industry are stating the split is finally over, with merger announcement expected very very shortly. While we have heard this before, sounds pretty good this time. We'll wait and see.

Cheers,

Al.

There have been a few rumours floating about, Conquest and Walker to Indycar for one, on the other hand there is talk of a major announcement upcoming.

It isn't really much to go on (zero sources!) and I won't get my hopes up, but let's see anyways...

There have been a few rumours floating about, Conquest and Walker to Indycar for one, on the other hand there is talk of a major announcement upcoming.

It isn't really much to go on (zero sources!) and I won't get my hopes up, but let's see anyways...

Walker and Conquest aren't going anywhere.

Well no, I wouldn't ideally think so.

But with the situation at present, I'd rule nothing out.

Believe it when i see it. Like to see it, only believe it when I see it though.:cool:

Check out Miller's new column at Speed, only been up for about an hour.

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/open-wheel-peace-at-hand/

Walker and Conquest aren't going anywhere.

Well it would be a shame if all the others move out and they don't ;)

Check out Miller's new column at Speed, only been up for about an hour.

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/open-wheel-peace-at-hand/

It would be great, if CC and IRL will unite... only thing I can express sorrow for is the supposed use of IRL Dallaras instead of CC Panozes... I can't understand, what is the point of using old and soon-to-be-replaced IRL chassis (recent Indystar article said, the change will be in 2010) instead of new Panoz.

Overall, it must be huge logistical and organizational effort... kinda like cancellation of 2008 Dakar rally only a few hours before it went underway. Hopefully, all the parties from IRL and ChampCar can survive such transition (I would not hold my breath though, especially regarding small teams like Conquest or Dale Coyne)

It would be great, if CC and IRL will unite... only thing I can express sorrow for is the supposed use of IRL Dallaras instead of CC Panozes... I can't understand, what is the point of using old and soon-to-be-replaced IRL chassis (recent Indystar article said, the change will be in 2010) instead of new Panoz.



Provided panoz is no more brand-new, the reason is simple:
IRL can provide every CC team with Dallara chassis within a few weeks, after all it's about finding 14 chassis (the used cars market is very large, given the model age)

On the other side, can CC find 70 panoz cars within Indy500? Obviously not

More over, I have to guess that if the series merge this year, the new chassis release will be anticipated to 2009

Fingers crossed people, fingers crossed. I too will believe when i see it but atleast things sound positive.

I would prefer the use of Panoz just because i believe the Panoz is a better looking car (i'm swayed pretty easy:)).

Would you really need 70 cars when half of the nobodies that fill the final 6 rows won't be required???? It may sound harsh but the grid depth in the 500 has been ordinary for the past 5 years atleast IMO

We need a car that can run on ovals. The Panoz isn't ideal for that.

I quite like the look of the Indycar's BTW. They aren't classically good looking, but they have a touch of the old school about them.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns20027.html

More reports. Hallelujah...the end is in sight.

It looks like this is it! Not holding my breath of course, but if it's going it happen it's now or never.

I am stoked, this looks like it really could be the end if they can just sort the dates out.

Finally it seems both sides are accepting failure to get on the road to success. :)

A couple of more articles on this:

http://ukpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5jUZ2LXp2ovalf3bXKHapBKVY_nnw
http://www.paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=76547&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

It would appear that the Long Beach/Motegi clash is the only sticking point. TG is flying to Japan on Monday to try and convince them to move the race to later in the season. I'm sure the folks at Honda (who own the track) will see just how big this is and make a deal. What do they want? About 20 cars this April or maybe 35+ later in the year?

Another point - I'm sure Honda will have lost some revenue since they lost a permanent F1 race at Suzuka. A merged US Open Wheel series could easily be just as big in motorsport mad Japan as F1. C'mon Honda, you know it makes sense!

Wow! There have been rumours, but didn't think it was this close to happening.

Despite all that has been said, I hope they finally see sense and do it. The war needs to end.

With the money they make with engines, they should easily find an arrangement; after all it's not about dropping the race, but just displacing it!

I expect an announcement to be made by today (in the USA timezone of course)

Ehy Mods!

Prepare and be ready to merge the CC and IRL fora! :woot:

Honda want this merger as much as anybody, they will find a way to move that Motegi date. It will be tricky, but this will not block anything in the end I'm sure.

I'm pumped over this, surely we won't be left disappointed?

Well it would be a shame if all the others move out and they don't ;)

I'm sorry but I just have to laugh!

I hope they don't cock it up this time.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65044

Even if in the unlikley event of Honda not willing to play ball on this one (and why wouldn't they?!) It won't be the end of the world. If they CC teams already have thier Panoz cars, maybe they can run an exhibition race at Long Beach as a farewell before a proper merge with the IRL in time for what will be one of the best - and most important - Indy 500s in years.

If there's a merger it will be the best days of our lives! Just think, if all the CC teams come over along with the IRL teams, that's easierly over 30 cars. Just like the old days before the split or early split for both IRL and CART. I also think a merged series will show a lot of people to make new teams and join 'the Indy Car World Series' as its a hell of a lot more easier to run in a unified series then two split ones were no new names join.

Just think, the Indy 500 would have a very strong grid, the bumping! Stories and articles such as this bring strong reassurance. I mean if Robert Clarke from Honda is going to fly to Motegi to try get the date switched it shows how serious they are. It just has to happen. If it don't stuff 'em!

As for it may not be 100% 50/50, at the end of the day I'm not bothered we all just want a merged series.

we all just want a merged series.Yeah, it'll unify the boards here too Luke. Hallelujah. ;)

C'mon guys, don't nobody screw this up.

It sounds like the details are done with the exception of Long Beach/Motegi. There'll be some way they'll figure that one out, IMO. One series again....I hope.

My only beef with this is it sounds like it would be Long Beach + IRL schedule. If thats the case I'll stop following if we don't see classic CART tracks like Laguna, RA, Cleveland and Toronto

From what I read in Miller's piece, Edmonton and Surfers would also be included. As for Laguna, CC gave it up once for San Jose anyway.

My only beef with this is it sounds like it would be Long Beach + IRL schedule. If thats the case I'll stop following if we don't see classic CART tracks like Laguna, RA, Cleveland and Toronto

I'm quite sure best CCraces will be retained

this is going to be fantastic if it happens

I wonder what CC races will be dropped, and what ones will become IRL races? Does this mean the "new" IRL is coming to Spain, etc? Will we see a massive schedule this year of all the IRL races plus the CC races that don't clash?

This is all very exciting.

This has to be the time to do it. A lot of races will lose out, but getting a single unified field with a single (largely American) direction is vital. I'm not sure it can even wait another year. Losing the Panoz cars would be a shame - maybe a ballasting system can be arranged to allow those to race against the Dallaras on the road/street courses, maybe alongside the same teams' regular Dallaras? I doubt Motegi will be a sticking point - Honda have far more to gain from the merger than they would have from moving or even cancelling this race. Alternatively, why not Suzuka?

Surfers Paradise just got interesting again! :)

I wonder what CC races will be dropped, and what ones will become IRL races? Does this mean the "new" IRL is coming to Spain, etc? Will we see a massive schedule this year of all the IRL races plus the CC races that don't clash?

This is all very exciting.

The Miller article claims that;

Additionally, the Champ Car races at Long Beach, Edmonton and Surfer’s Paradise, Australia would be added to the ’08 IndyCar Series schedule.

Maybe more back in 09', but I doubt they would be anything but core events... Road America, maybe Toronto back... can't think of much more....

The Miller article claims that;



Maybe more back in 09', but I doubt they would be anything but core events... Road America, maybe Toronto back... can't think of much more....

Agree, its going to take a season or two to sort everything out.

... Losing the Panoz cars would be a shame - maybe a ballasting system can be arranged to allow those to race against the Dallaras on the road/street courses, maybe alongside the same teams' regular Dallaras? ...

This hypothesis is not viable, given the extremely short time between now and Homestead

Agree, its going to take a season or two to sort everything out.

I reckon in a couple of years the unified Indy series will have a helluva calendar

I`m gald I went to Sebring. Those cars were cool. :(

Anyhow, if Paul Newman is happy, so am I.:)

This is fantastic news, really hope it's going to happen.

Latest article paints a less rosey picture.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/racing/wires/02/08/3010.ap.car.open.wheel.merger.0498/

That's an annoying thing, if Honda don't want to move dates they could easily hold it at Suzuka ...

Curt Cavin's report

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080208/SPORTS0107/802080490

But George, who will be accompanied on the Japan trip by IRL presidents Terry Angstadt and Brian Barnhart, said today that he doesn't want to get too optimistic that a deal could be reached.
"Because it seems that every time we've been close, some new obstacle seems to get in the way," he said.
Champ Car co-owner Kevin Kalkhoven stressed that no offer has been made from either series and, therefore, no deal has been agreed to, as has been reported on the Internet.
"I sent Tony a text (message) last night to find out what is going on," he said.

International Speedway Corp., which owns several tracks that host races on the IRL's schedule, recently refused a request to move the April 27 race at Kansas Speedway in order for the Japan race to take that date.

Depends what happens but Toronto clashes with the IRL date at the ISC owned Watkins Glen as well, and if Toronto goes for one year, you can be damn sure that it won't come back ever :(

Latest article paints a less rosey picture.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/racing/wires/02/08/3010.ap.car.open.wheel.merger.0498/

I think Honda will be swayed by the idea of having a grid of ~30 cars later in the year rather than having 18-odd earlier in the year.

Well, if KK doesn't know what's going on, he might check with his partners.

this is such a big DUH
it is even in autoweek now- never thought i'd hope this works out this way but it seems the only way-the spare cars from CC may go to Superleague or A1 i guess...
i don't wnat to losse the turbos but one series is better period
lets hope they fit either motor into the either chasssis.
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080208/FREE/524211808/1065

there's going to be BIG conflicts in any BIG merger. they'll figure it out if they are serious.

i too would like to see turbo Cosworths as well...i'm not to "up to snuff" on these cars, but would it be completely stupid to have a series of Cosworth/Panoz vs Honda/Dallara? if they could work that out, it would be very interesting, but i'm not sure it is even feasible.

and they have got to keep Laguna, Road America...but, some sacrifices must be made. 2009 should be awesome!

Long live Panoz!

this is such a big DUH
it is even in autoweek now- never thought i'd hope this works out this way but it seems the only way-the spare cars from CC may go to Superleague or A1 i guess...

SuperLeagueFormula have developed their own kit, it will probably sound the dog's reproductive organs with it's V12 4.2 unit which supposedly will get 750hp (more than a 2006 Sauber F1 unit!)... I'm not sure if that's exaggerated or not, but if it does it will be faster than GP2.

The car is built by Panoz, but it doesn't look like the DP01. It's called the DP09, if anyone cares. I think SLF has a good future ahead of it unless it is mismanaged, the cars sound good anyway.

As for A1, they've got a partnership with Ferrari and soon they should have basically a modified Ferrari F1 car.

Who else would want them ...

I believe none of what I hear and half of what I see. (Who said that?)
It may be actually happening this time but I expect most of the combining will not happen untill next year.
If races are cancelled (and it seems they will be CCWS races) look for breach of contract law suits.
Probably, if it happens at all, there will be some interchange this year with one series next year. IRL may want to drop some of their less well attended races next year in favour of good CCWS venues.
IRL are considering new cars in a year or so and the Panoz with mods for ovals might be the way to go. That way the current CCWS cars will not be junk and Panoz will have time to build sufficient cars.
Any way here is hoping.

Any compromise has its downsides, this one has the ugly Dallaras instead of the Panozes. Loses Toronto, Road America and Cleveland (three great venues) and implies that FTG has won.

All of these "losses" are worth undoing the damage cause by the split in the first place.
If it happens, I'll sing Hallejujah.

It's about freakin' time.

I'll believe it when I see it but, if it happens, I don't care what races they have to drop or what cars they run, I'll just be delighted. Who cares if they run a pig ugly car for a couple of seasons or if we lose a race or two? The end result will be well worth it. It's always a shame to lose races, of course, but both series are on the verge of collapse on their own so we have to make sacrifices.

I am not convinced about a merger for 2008.
It's all too rushed and I wonder if in fact TG is actually desperate to get a larger car count.
CCWS loses out in race dates/races and as has been mentioned their are potential law suits fronm contracts.

KK says there are advantages both ways for CCWS so it is far from a done deal. No letter of intent, just talk and rumours, plus a couple of significant hurdles to be overcome...
Walker makes the point that damage coasts are significantly higher in IRL and my guess is that a number of financially strained CCWS teams could miss a few races later in the season. I also think that taking only 3 races from the CCWS schedule is a negative and they are probably the races that TG would value, the rest he doesn't care about or they are ones that would cost CCWS a significant amount of money to run. I'm surprised Toronto isn't one of the races included in the schedule or maybe it is just too packed.

I would think that contractual issues would certainly have been addressed already if it has progressed as far as it seems. There MAY not be that many contracts signed yet for '08 by CC, given the number of track rentals and co-and self-promotes. And if those races are not making money for CC or its promoters, the IRL isn't going to be interested in picking them up in a melding of the two. Also, if the melding, however it's done, is completed, CC can go Chapter 7 and people can sue all they want.

KK talks out of both sides of his mouth, depending on which quotes you read. In Cavin's Indy Star story, he said he didn't know anything about it, that he text messaged TG last night to find out. BS. He should've been contacting his own partners.

Then, in a later story that Teretonga just quoted him, he seems to know all about everything. Posturing BS.

He also said everyone should shut up. He should start it himself.

KK talks out of both sides of his mouth, depending on which quotes you read. In Cavin's Indy Star story, he said he didn't know anything about it, that he text messaged TG last night to find out. BS. He should've been contacting his own partners.

Then, in a later story that Teretonga just quoted him, he seems to know all about everything. Posturing BS.

He also said everyone should shut up. He should start it himself.

So what you are saying is KK is Satan and TG is God?

I think it's over, whether next week, next month or next year. The people that actually care anymore are just sick of it.

For me I've got my own racing to worry about and plenty of other series to follow like V8 supercars, DTM, Rally America, A1GP etc. Life goes on.

Had KK finally admit that he doesn't have chance with ICS? God, why did he come with this CCWS sick from beginning idea? We would've had one series for 5 years now with only. Come on Tony, we need one series, take that teams and let's forget about CC and those lost years, I feel there're gonna be one series soon.

I think it's over, whether next week, next month or next year. The people that actually care anymore are just sick of it.

For me I've got my own racing to worry about and plenty of other series to follow like V8 supercars, DTM, Rally America, A1GP etc. Life goes on.

I feel the exact same way mountainstar. I think we all do really, well quite a few..

To be fair, as much as I am not in admiration for Tony George and what he caused, he has a bit more respectability than Kalkhoven.

Indycar was hardly a successful venture, but he still has a hell of a lot more business sense than KK who seemed utterly clueless.

So if the merger happens some of you guys are just gonna ditch the whole thing? Surely not?

Anyways, yes we will lose races for a season but they'll be back. If they get this running this season, imagine the potential for 2009.

For now, a mixture of venues from both series and the IRL cars is pretty much perfect for me. We'd have an exciting calendar the likes of which he haven't seen for a while and it'd be goodbye to the dreadful Panoz (though sadly the engine note as well). High fives all round.

I truly believe this is almost sorted now, it's just a matter of when it can be achieved. 2009 is definitely the latest it'll be put into action I'd imagine.

I'm all for a merger, but what is the big rush to have it this year? Both CCWS and the IRL are starting their seasons in 2 months. This is going to screw everyone up.

They really should take this year to hammer out the logistics for 2009 instead of cramming both series together in 08.

It's just too long to wait. ;)

http://www.wheels.ca/article/173268

Some interesting things in a TorStar article

The future of the annual Champ Car race in Toronto has been thrown into doubt by the latest developments in the long-running saga of merger talks between the two premier North American open wheel racing series.

However, in a statement Friday, Champ Car co-owners Kevin Kalkhoven and Gerry Forsythe, said, "Unfortunately, leaks and media reports about a possible unification of Champ Car and the Indy Racing League (IRL) have significantly hampered discussions.

"Over the past three years, we have fielded and offered several proposals regarding unification of the two premier U.S.-based open-wheel racing series, but we have been unable to reach an acceptable solution.

"Discussions currently are at a standstill, and we therefore are proceeding with plans to continue as Champ Car."

"Discussions currently are at a standstill, and we therefore are proceeding with plans to continue as Champ Car."

Of course things are at a standstill. TG is off to Japan to clear up the Motegi date. Until that situation is rectified, everything is at a stand still.

Oh, unconfirmed reports that employees at the Champcar headquarters are packing their goods into boxes.

CCWS
*Apr 20 - Long Beach
*Apr 27 - Houston
May 18 - Laguna Seca
*Jun 1 - Zolder, Belgium
*Jun 8 - Jerez, Spain
*Jun 22 - Cleveland
*Jun 29 - Mont-Tremblant
*Jul 6 - Toronto
*Jul 20 - Edmonton
Jul 27 - Portland
*Aug 10 - Road America
Sep 14 - Assen, Holland
Oct 26 - Surfers Paradise
Nov 9 - Mexico City


IRL
Mar 29 - Homestead-Miami
Apr 6 - St. Petersburg
*Apr 19 - Motegi, Japan
*Apr 27 - Kansas
May 25 - Indianapolis 500
*Jun 1 - Milwaukee
*Jun 7 - Texas
*Jun 22 - Iowa
*Jun 28 - Richmond
*Jul 6 - Watkins Glen
Jul 12 - Nashville
*Jul 20 - Mid Ohio
*Aug 9 - Kentucky
Aug 24 - Infineon
Aug 31 - Belle Isle Detroit
Sep 7 - Chicagoland



I'm all for a merger, but does it have to be this year? Here are the 2008 schedules. At least half of the races are in conflict with each other. And with the contracts that the promoters and tracks have signed with either series, it is really going to be that easy to get rid of some races this year? And how can this be possible with both series starting their seasons in 2 months?

Does Champ Car and the IRL want to deal with the dozens of lawsuits that can potentially be filed? In my opinion it's better to hammer out all the logistics out for a merger this year and start 2009 with a merged series.

It's less of a headache for everyone.

Let's be honest, Champcar was probably going to lose some of its races anyways. It is the trend of the times.

Some dates for both series will have ALMS will they not, so they can be headliners instead (if they aren't already!)?

Laguna Seca falls on Indy Bump day, Toronto would be dropped without a lawsuit as it is CC owned, but I expect Legault will be after them for a Mt. Tremblant cancellation.

Apparently what is being said is 2008 is being run as planned with a merger for 2009. Ultimately it is probably best to do it right the first time then making a big mess of it.

Sorry, don't buy that story MTNstar. Sounds like a deflection story.

Regarding Toronto... where would it fit?

June 14th has a Jays game and the Toronto Festival of Arts & Creativity, including events planned at the Harbour Front.

July 27th is the final day of the Toronto Jazz Festival

August 2nd is typically the last day of Caribana

Really, I think Toronto is not going to make the cut unfortunately, if this happens.

Don't care, just get it done. As long as Australia is on the schedule.

Power vs Briscoe vs Dixon

Bring it On

Regarding Toronto... where would it fit?

June 14th has a Jays game and the Toronto Festival of Arts & Creativity, including events planned at the Harbour Front.

July 27th is the final day of the Toronto Jazz Festival

August 2nd is typically the last day of Caribana

Really, I think Toronto is not going to make the cut unfortunately, if this happens.

Toronto can handle multiple events in the city at the same time. I went to a Jays game on race weekend last year and If I remember we also hosted some Under 20 World Cup games around that time as well.
Toronto is well versed in holding large events.
Reserving the space would be more of an issue i think. I think the event could close down for a year and come back with a bang in 2009. There is too much money and marketing potential for Toronto to be permanetly gone however.

I certainly hope this merge happens because if it doesn't I (among others I imagine) will more than likely be moving on.

Are you kidding? With the Miller Council, once its gone, its gone. Australia is gone, because as Oreo points out, Chicagoland on September 7th has guarantees to host the IRL series finale

The three races that have been mentioned from CC to join a "melding" effort are Long Beach, Edmonton and Surfers.

Those would seem to be the races that have the management and financing to make a go of it.

Look at the others. Portland is CC-backed and loses money. Lanigan is a CC designate as promoter at Houston and Cleveland, both of which lose money.

Mont Tremblant was just a movement of appeasement by Legault to CC when he went to NASCAR, not particularly because he wanted to do it.

And how many of the Laguna Secas and European track rentals have been "signed" at this point?

TG said in that interview that the IRL was talking to tracks with which it had contracts to accommodate the merger. Presumably, CC is, too, but IMO, CC had fewer entanglements. And from what we hear, it seems to be resolved except for Motegi and Long Beach.

From the reaction of CC car owners and drivers who have been interviewed, Bachelart seems to be the only one POed and that's because he said he just spent a million on a new DP-01 and some equipment. (If he spent a million on a new car, then where is all that cost containment?)

Time will tell.

The three races that have been mentioned from CC to join a "melding" effort are Long Beach, Edmonton and Surfers.

Those would seem to be the races that have the management and financing to make a go of it.

Look at the others. Portland is CC-backed and loses money. Lanigan is a CC designate as promoter at Houston and Cleveland, both of which lose money.

Mont Tremblant was just a movement of appeasement by Legault to CC when he went to NASCAR, not particularly because he wanted to do it.

And how many of the Laguna Secas and European track rentals have been "signed" at this point?

TG said in that interview that the IRL was talking to tracks with which it had contracts to accommodate the merger. Presumably, CC is, too, but IMO, CC had fewer entanglements. And from what we hear, it seems to be resolved except for Motegi and Long Beach.

From the reaction of CC car owners and drivers who have been interviewed, Bachelart seems to be the only one POed and that's because he said he just spent a million on a new DP-01 and some equipment. (If he spent a million on a new car, then where is all that cost containment?)

Time will tell.

Yes a million on a DP01 AND new equipment. Go price out a new dallara ready to roll.

Houston and Cleveland lose money? Link please.

All this merger is tony george is short cars for this season and needs to fill the field. Has anyone ever seen him act with such urgency to get a deal done.

Whatever happens we have a long way to go to get back to where we once were. Concluding a "deal" is only the beginning.

Sorry, don't buy that story MTNstar. Sounds like a deflection story.

Regarding Toronto... where would it fit?

June 14th has a Jays game and the Toronto Festival of Arts & Creativity, including events planned at the Harbour Front.

July 27th is the final day of the Toronto Jazz Festival

August 2nd is typically the last day of Caribana

Really, I think Toronto is not going to make the cut unfortunately, if this happens.

I'm sure you wouldn't, that's to be expected.

The email sent out by David Higdon today says no deal concluded and all continues as planned for 2008. My personal preference is to see it done right the first time.

It looks like Toronto is not in the picture which is not good.

TG apparently isn't as short of cars as CC, which has seven with drivers at this point.

From the KK quotes either pleading ignorance or bashing away at whoever spoiled someone's little secret, he doesn't sound like a very happy camper.

Poster at another forum said Miller went on radio tonight with the following:

"Miller was just on 1260 WNDE. Miller said, don't believe the comments of KK being quoted by other news outlets. Not that those KK quotes are misquoted, but more that KK is flat out lying. Miller said, he presented his story to KK. KK had no issue with the story at that time. Then KK starts coming out bashing Miller's story. Miller said, KK's problem is that he said nothing to any of the CC teams. The CC teams knew nothing about deal in the last couple of days until Miller called each of them with the story. Miller said, KK was covering his own butt."

this is great news if it is true,just have to wait and see what happens in the next few days.

I hope it happens, I don't car about the DP01 either, I agree with Knowlesy, it's ugly, shame about the turbo engine, but I can live with that.

CCWS
I'm all for a merger, but does it have to be this year? Here are the 2008 schedules. At least half of the races are in conflict with each other. And with the contracts that the promoters and tracks have signed with either series, it is really going to be that easy to get rid of some races this year? And how can this be possible with both series starting their seasons in 2 months?

Does Champ Car and the IRL want to deal with the dozens of lawsuits that can potentially be filed? In my opinion it's better to hammer out all the logistics out for a merger this year and start 2009 with a merged series.

It's less of a headache for everyone.

The problem is that especially Champ Car doesn't have enough cars to fulfil its promoter minimums. They have contracts with these circuits guaranteeing that 16 cars will race (18 for the European races), and there are massive financial penalties if they can't do that.

At the moment Champ Car has a grid which is less than half the promoter minimum.
Indycar is probably two cars short of its promoter minimum.
Together they already have well over 20 cars, and the strengths of not competing against each other means other teams are more likely to commit.

Mar 29 - Homestead-Miami
Apr 6 - St. Petersburg
Apr 20 - Long Beach
Apr 27 - Houston
May 25 - Indianapolis 500
Jun 1 - Milwaukee
Jun 7 - Texas
Jun 22 - Iowa
Jun 28 - Richmond
Jul 6 - Watkins Glen
Jul 12 - Nashville
Jul 20 - Edmonton
Aug 9 - Kentucky
Aug 24 - Infineon
Aug 31 - Belle Isle Detroit
Sep 7 - Chicagoland
Oct 26 - Surfers Paradise

These races will probably get a spot because they are profitable:
- Cleveland
- Mexico City
- Motegi, Japan

The problem is that especially Champ Car doesn't have enough cars to fulfil its promoter minimums. They have contracts with these circuits guaranteeing that 16 cars will race (18 for the European races), and there are massive financial penalties if they can't do that.

At the moment Champ Car has a grid which is less than half the promoter minimum.
Indycar is probably two cars short of its promoter minimum.
Together they already have well over 20 cars, and the strengths of not competing against each other means other teams are more likely to commit.

Mar 29 - Homestead-Miami
Apr 6 - St. Petersburg
Apr 20 - Long Beach
Apr 27 - Houston
May 25 - Indianapolis 500
Jun 1 - Milwaukee
Jun 7 - Texas
Jun 22 - Iowa
Jun 28 - Richmond
Jul 6 - Watkins Glen
Jul 12 - Nashville
Jul 20 - Edmonton
Aug 9 - Kentucky
Aug 24 - Infineon
Aug 31 - Belle Isle Detroit
Sep 7 - Chicagoland
Oct 26 - Surfers Paradise

These races will probably get a spot because they are profitable:
- Cleveland
- Mexico City
- Motegi, Japan

I would think that Motegi would have to be on the schedule because of Honda. They would insist upon it. Cleveland would be great as a night race, and Mexico City often draws large crowds.

This is a good schedule, but I would replace Watkins Glen with Toronto and Kemtucky with Road America. On the other hand, having Toronto would make this schedule pretty street-course heavy and have only a handful of permanant road courses. Having said that, Toronto needs to fit on a merged schedule somewhere. It's a great course with great fans.

Had KK finally admit that he doesn't have chance with ICS? God, why did he come with this CCWS sick from beginning idea? We would've had one series for 5 years now with only. Come on Tony, we need one series, take that teams and let's forget about CC and those lost years, I feel there're gonna be one series soon.

IndyCAR/CART/champ car, was there way before the irl, it was not an idea, but a motive to keep what was one of the best series in the world alive. TG's idea of his own series is what has caused this, not champ car and KK.

I hope the merger goes ahead, with road america included, thats a venue that cannot be missed.

What we need here is for this to be fixed.

We really don't need to rehash who did what to whom.

Bottom line: a merged series will result in some people being happy and some annoyed with what was or was not included. That said, it is clear that two series cannot continue to survive. They need to merge and they need to do it soon.

Just fix it.

Really. If a merger happens, the rest of this stuff will sort itself out, in all its commercial glory. It's a heck of an opportunity if they'd just get over themselves.

Last 2, think you got it with "commercial glory." Financially solid events (meaning well-sponsored and well-attended) would be kept and the others would fall by the wayside.

Best example of this is Cleveland. It's always a good race on TV. Like many street courses, they can't build enough seats to make out. It's been handed off from promoter to promoter throughout its existence and no one has been able to "make it" financially there.

It's a vicious circle. The fan and TV viewer hafta get a good show. The sponsors hafta get exposure. The promoter must make money. The sanctioning body must gets its fee from the promoter to cover expenses and pay the purse. The teams and drivers must get paid. If any of those falls out of balance, the whole thing breaks down.

What we need here is for this to be fixed.

We really don't need to rehash who did what to whom.

Bottom line: a merged series will result in some people being happy and some annoyed with what was or was not included. That said, it is clear that two series cannot continue to survive. They need to merge and they need to do it soon.

Just fix it.
Agreed. Let's let bygones be bygones, even if that means acknowledging that Tony George is not the Antichrist. We've known for the last twelve years that he couldn't simply be pushed under the rug in any attempt, so why keep perpetuating the blame game at this point?

that's funny true
TG held out until he had the best and only solution...he allowed IRl and grew it into CART light and now it will be what we had and wanted all along..
Well long live Indycar

Ultimately, even though I'd rather see Tony George having a diminished role in the operations of the series, I must say this. A series with 30-plus regular entrants, well-attended race venues, and room to grow is much more appealing than anything we have now...even if Tony is in charge.

Personally, I thought the deal that was rumored before sounded about perfect. I believe that included cars at what-not for CC teams as well as Edmonton, Toronto, Surfers, Mexico City, and Long Beach.

The only thing to improve it would be to include Cleveland and Road America, but as many of you have already mentioned, the schedule gets pretty fat.

I'm in agreement that it just seems too late to do it for 2008. Scheduling conflicts are everywhere, and it wouldn't do anyone any good to drop an event for one year and bring it back the next. I say business as planned for '08, and work now to get the deal done for '09 and create an amazing schedule that includes the core CC races.

(It might be necessary to drop a couple of the less successful IRL events but I don't follow the IRL so I don't know what those would be.)

Waiting to '09 is also the best thing for the teams that spent a bunch of money on this year already.

I think that we're all missing the obvious here with talk of a merge in 2009. Neither series is sustainable in its current format for another season. Simple as. It's a case of make it work NOW. Or die. If a couple of teams go to the wall as a result then so be it.

When it comes to dropping dates from the schedule - and any possible court action - then remember that Champcar will cease to be so who will the promoters be suing? It surely won't be the Indycar Series or whatever it'll be called as all they did was attract some teams and personnel previously attached to a now defunct rival series. If they do go after them then, well, they can always chuck em a bone and promise a return to the schedule in 2009...

I think both championships can get a reasonable 2008 grid (by funding some cars themselves) and stage perfectly good 2008 championships across a reasonable range of circuits. The issue is - would a combined series be better than that, even allowing for lost races this year? I can understand why some suspect that IRL problems are the root of this particular immediate offer, even if the long-term result benefits both parties. Maybe one option is to run most or all currently-scheduled races, either for one series or both, and form a combined championship table for this year, before arranging one series for 2009?

Wait a minute guys, it doesn't look to me as a merger it just looks like KK surrunders (at last, why didn't he let George take everything 5 years ago?) and IRL takes the teams and some circuit promoters on their side. I really doubt, if it happens ofc, cause KK & Co. showed few times that they do not care about this sport, all the teams jump the fence, some teams may do partial season, Bachelart moans, Coyne no cash again, PCM - who knows? What's interesting CC bosses didn't even sy that they surrunder to promotersand team owners, what is unbelieveble in pro business!

I wonder if as part of this, we will see Indycar moving to a Cosworth engine in 2010?

sceptic, I doubt that Cosworth or Pi is part of any "melding" package of the two series. But Dan Davis of Ford said long ago that Ford would like to compete. It's possible Ford would badge the Cosworth for use in a combined series.

SO lets get this straight.
TG (some years ago) this is S###. We need to race on ovals yada yada.
I will be US answer to F1 - I'll start my own series.

TG - We dont race on tracks or streets and not out of Norht America.
(long live the white supremist hey)

TG - CART/Champ car will never work - yadda yadda yadda.

I'm now known as T "USA Berinie" George- to race under me you will do as I say.

Previuos attempts at mergers, by others would could see the bitumen tried to broker a deal, only USA Bernie said No

Now, he runs over with cheque book in hand, here have a Million for each team etc, I will keep the races I said I would never do.


SO then, why is Kevin and Gerry copping flack from posts in this forum?

When USA bernis backflips, he is revered for ending the split he started.

It is just me or do the USA media and others , avoid telling it like it is, because USA Bernie, like F1 Bernie will not speak to the again?

In some instances, that would be good.

God Damn God Bless America

You have to laugh, it's a comedians gift for material:rofl:

SO lets get this straight.
TG (some years ago) this is S###. We need to race on ovals yada yada.
I will be US answer to F1 - I'll start my own series.

TG - We dont race on tracks or streets and not out of Norht America.
(long live the white supremist hey)

TG - CART/Champ car will never work - yadda yadda yadda.

I'm now known as T "USA Berinie" George- to race under me you will do as I say.

Previuos attempts at mergers, by others would could see the bitumen tried to broker a deal, only USA Bernie said No

Now, he runs over with cheque book in hand, here have a Million for each team etc, I will keep the races I said I would never do.


SO then, why is Kevin and Gerry copping flack from posts in this forum?

When USA bernis backflips, he is revered for ending the split he started.

It is just me or do the USA media and others , avoid telling it like it is, because USA Bernie, like F1 Bernie will not speak to the again?

In some instances, that would be good.

God Damn God Bless America

You have to laugh, it's a comedians gift for material:rofl:

Word.

Somehow the man that created the split will get the credit for ending it. I'm sure his canonization as a saint is not far away. Only the smart realize he destroyed the village to "save" it. Few fans or businesses/sponsors in the USA give a rats ass for open wheel racing anymore. There are not many people left around to play to. And when this sellout is complete there will be even fewer around to watch as champcar fans find other pursuits in life.

Unfortunately, the remnants of champcar he'll pick off only end up as temporary filler for the endless hemorrhaging of teams and drivers from the irl. We'll be back in the same place in 2-3 years.

What I find sad is many people are so desperate for a merger, they'll take whatever slop is offered up before them. Continuing on the same path and expecting a different result is stupid. Champcar teams will just be the latest casualties in a long line of bankrupt and out of business irl teams.

The irony is that if tony gets what he wants which is 100% control, he also has 100% of the responsibility. Whether it fails or succeeds is in his hands. There will be no more evil champcar/CART people for indycool and tony to blame anymore. It's all yours bud.

Found this at Speedtv.com...

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-merger-talks-awaiting-developments/

Most of what's mentioned in the article has been said here, including the scheduling conflicts, expecially between Long Beach and Motegi. In order to fix that conflict, the IRL wants to move the race weekend, but Honda, who owns the track won't move it. Champ Car can't move the Long Beach race due to the contract it signed with the Long Beach Convention Center. One thing is for sure, it seems both Champ Car and the IRL want this to happen. So if it does happen, we at least have two confirmed tracks in Long Beach and Motegi.

Word.


What I find sad is many people are so desperate for a merger, they'll take whatever slop is offered up before them. Continuing on the same path and expecting a different result is stupid. Champcar teams will just be the latest casualties in a long line of bankrupt and out of business irl teams.


Not this fan.

I`m looking to see what the future plans are. Like the formula in 2010, the schedule that should include the better CC venues like Road America.
2008 might be pasted together with glue...and I might not bother to watch that, but long term.. I`m hoping to actually follow the series....that is if it resembles CART.
That`s what it was all about wasn`t it? :cool:

I know this has all been said but the sad fact is that Tony George split a once powerful open wheel series (greater than F1 in terms of racing/entertainment value) to create one exactly the same as before.

There will be a mix of Oval / Road and Street courses contested mainly in North America with a splash of Canada / Japan and Aus.

The hardest job of all will be can they get the fans and corporate support back.

Word.

Somehow the man that created the split will get the credit for ending it.
To say that he caused anything to do with the split all by himself is foolish on a good day, but he is full responsible for what he has turned his IRL into and that is asininely pathetic spec. series.
Bob

With the proposed merger, what happens with the Atlantics and Infinity Pro series?

Do they merge aswell or remain seperate? I don't know too much about the IPS to know if they are even close in comparison

I would hope that in a merged series, we would have Indycar as the main show and then have 2 support series with Atlantic and IPS.

With the proposed merger, what happens with the Atlantics and Infinity Pro series?

Do they merge aswell or remain seperate? I don't know too much about the IPS to know if they are even close in comparison

Can't see why they could remain as they are. After all we did once have Atlantics and Indy Lights and all was good.

To say that he caused anything to do with the split all by himself is foolish on a good day, but he is full responsible for what he has turned his IRL into and that is asininely pathetic spec. series.
Bob

Well Bob he was the one and only founder of the irl. Don't blame others for his actions. No one held him down and made him do it.

Can't see why they could remain as they are. After all we did once have Atlantics and Indy Lights and all was good.
Indy Lights died, TA was dieing until KK came in. I doubt George will allow CCAC compete against IPS.

Tony will kill Atlantic if it isn't sold as a support act to ALMS or Grand Am...
Its just the way it is.
Tg's way or nothing.

My other concern is that if the 'wins' the battle he'll no longer have an interest in propping up the whole series so will let all but a handful of races die off if they aren't self sustaining and we could end up with a six or eight race schedule plus Indy and that would be it....

Tony will kill Atlantic if it isn't sold as a support act to ALMS or Grand Am...
Its just the way it is.
Tg's way or nothing.

My other concern is that if the 'wins' the battle he'll no longer have an interest in propping up the whole series so will let all but a handful of races die off if they aren't self sustaining and we could end up with a six or eight race schedule plus Indy and that would be it....

With a combined championship, i suspect tha the Indy Pro Series would be the main feeder, while Atlantics would sit below it.

Think of it as Indycar>Indy Pro>Indy Atlantic like Cup>Nationwide>Trucks/ARCA

Tony will kill Atlantic if it isn't sold as a support act to ALMS or Grand Am...We don't know that for sure Teretonga, but it doesn't really matter that much in the end anyway. A stronger, commercially-viable top open-wheel rung for the IPS and Atlantic drivers to shoot for means a whole lot more, to both series. By a country mile.

Well, we don't know what we don't know about this. I can't even understand what fomoco is trying to say, although it's certainly creative.

I have now read quotes from various stories from Paul Newman, Chip Ganassi, Jimmy Vasser, Paul Tracy, Derrick Walker, Carl Haas and Eric Bachelart saying "one series" is optimum, i.e., they're for it. Bachelart's is qualified by being upset that he spent $1 million on a new DP-01 and other pieces that may well not be used if the two series are melded.

And TG and Clarke are in Japan for talks Monday about solving the Motegi-Long Beach schedule issue.

As it took two sides to split, it takes two to come together. And I suppose both can be blamed or honored for each.

Mods, can we start a separate thread titled: "Ongoing Rehash of the Reasons for the Split" please?

Look, there is a potential merger on the table here kids. Can we keep it to that instead of yet another hijack to go over (again) why Person X is a goof for "starting" this?

I have seen these "truths" so many times I am getting to believe that some of y'all have whole posts in an archive and you just put a quarter in the jukebox, press "D17" and out comes yet another "TG was operating in a vacuum" diatribe.

Finally, finally, finally we may be ending this ridiculous situation and I still have to wade through the leftover effluvia...

My other concern is that if the 'wins' the battle he'll no longer have an interest in propping up the whole series

The other thing that concerns me is whether with the increased entry, will the 'TEAM' $1.2 million per car still be offered for the next couple of years ?

As if a merger goes through, CC teams will have a distinct disadvantage in competitiveness in terms of cars and tracks, making the sponsor finding much more difficult.

1 series is what everyone wants, I just hope the new administration is willing to look after those who have battled through the hard years.

Time will tell that, D.R.T. With one stronger series instead of two, it should increase sponsor interest. With more people and sponsors involved, there'll be more promotion involved. It's been said that potential series sponsors would do it if it was one series. It would mean more good races on TV for ABC and make the product more valuable there.

It would create the POTENTIAL for more money into the series from several avenues, but time will tell how it all comes together or what pieces of it come together faster or slower or at all.

One thing of value to a CC team seeking a sponsor is running Indy, which has TV ratings exceeding all the CC schedule combined. That's a start.

One thing of value to a CC team seeking a sponsor is running Indy, which has TV ratings exceeding all the CC schedule combined. That's a start.

It is but at the start with such a new environment it will be highly likely that the CC teams will be mid field which could make money finding difficult. That said, NHL was impressive out of the blocks in 2005 at Indy.

Even with Indy, mid field IRL teams havent been experiencing sponsors flocking to their cars.

The administration cannot desert these teams after or during year 1.

It is not in the best interest of the administration to desert anyone, so I doubt that they will. Their own teams are getting the $1.2 million TEAM subsidy this year, with small purses through the season and a larger purse at Indy as well as any CC teams that might join up for the same thing.

Although the series is doing it, those race teams are a business and they will be a better business if they are able to employ people or agencies who land them sponsors. Indeed, I've heard that three of them have already signed up with Zak Brown's agency in Indianapolis to seek sponsors.

It isn't going to be any one thing, be it subsidy or sponsorship or attendance or TV rights or series sponsor or whatever that is going to make a series work. It all must work together to build and it's illogical to assume it's all going to happen instantly or at the same time. Indeed, it will most likely be a number of years of building and there will be bumps in the road and tangents.

DRT -- Sponsors very rarely "flock" to any teams in any series. It takes a lot of work and the creation of an attractive package which meets a sponsor's needs. A team doesn't have to be a consistent winner to get good sponsorship, but rather need to provide good value to the sponsor. Zak Brown's agency (which Indycool mentions) is very good at working with teams to accomplish this. (IC, is it still the "Zak Attack"?, or am I dating myself....)

Well, unfortunately fazzaz, that post and the subsequent post quoting it in full support "word" and all is still there...he said in response to a post that has been edited!

You are typing faster than I today, fz!

Hi, John,

Too little coffee this morning, I guess.

You're right -- I replied to an extremely offensive post, then it seemed to be gone so I edited what I had written. I just went back and found that it is indeed still there.

I am surprised, I guess, that a post accusing Tony George of being a white "supremist" (sic), adds anything to the discussion. I'm also too old, I guess, for "Word". I understand that among the very young this means something like "I agree"? This is not the language I use.

I've stayed out of most of this bog, but if I owned a CC team I would look very hard at my options this year, on both sides. On the CC side, is the series providing any financial assistance in any way? If I'm using a pay driver, is he tied to a particular series or style of racing? (For example, will he refuse to run ovals?) Will I need to buy a second Panoz tub this year, as a spare or backup? With the schedule and TV package, can/have I attracted sponsors? If I ran the Indy 500, would that give me additional sponsorship opportunities? Would the Dallara/Honda offer make financial sense?

The decisions for the series owners are more difficult because of their multiple interests. If I am KK, and (a) a part owner of the series, (b) a team owner, (c) owner of the engine supplier for the series, where is my first loyalty? What is my bargaining position? Eric Bachelart's comments would suggest an answer in part, but I really don't know.

KK and GF are wealthy men, and according to our "insider" can support CC forever, but most wealthy men I know aren't stupid; they know when and how to cut their losses. CC as such has very limited assets for a merger (basically only lease/operating agreements for races.) I think they're in a difficult position.

(The argument will likely be raised by the faithful that this same scenario applies to the IRL. Perhaps so, but that's irrelevant at this point in the proposed merger.)

I think this merger can happen. I think it should happen, and now rather than next year -- that may save some of the smaller CC teams. Open wheel racing in the U.S. will not displace NASCAR -- it's far too late for that. I do believe that a combined IRL/CC, with the Indy 500 as the centerpiece of their series, could attract a sufficient base of teams, fans, and sponsorship to be successful.

Fz

Mods, can we start a separate thread titled: "Ongoing Rehash of the Reasons for the Split" please?

Look, there is a potential merger on the table here kids. Can we keep it to that instead of yet another hijack to go over (again) why Person X is a goof for "starting" this?

I have seen these "truths" so many times I am getting to believe that some of y'all have whole posts in an archive and you just put a quarter in the jukebox, press "D17" and out comes yet another "TG was operating in a vacuum" diatribe.

Finally, finally, finally we may be ending this ridiculous situation and I still have to wade through the leftover effluvia...

I did wonder where you had been...

Mods, can we start a separate thread titled: "Ongoing Rehash of the Reasons for the Split" please.

Don't take that tone with us when the reasons for the split have just as much to do with the imminent merger. Just because you've had your head in the sand for the past 13 years...

Attack the post, not the poster.

I appreciate that some will feel that the merger would simply take us to an inferior version of 1995, but it's a better future than we can realistically get with 2 seperate championships. That's what counts.

fazzaz, yes, I believe you are dating yourself! I don't believe Zak is driving any more but he's had some success in sponsor placement, quite a bit with NASCAR teams.

It is a difficult time for CC teams. RM's story said they hadn't been paid prize money from last year. They seem largely unsuccessful at finding sponsorship, although Bachelart found something and says he spent $1 million on a DP-01 and new CC gear before he found out about merger talks. Mark C. said Walker went on Indy TV last night for an interview with a Dallara behind him. The TG offer to the teams of $1.2 million per car subsidy for any team showing the budget to run the full IRL season is $1.2 million more than some of the smaller CC teams have committed to them so far.

And quotes I've read from Paul Newman, Haas, Walker, Tracy, Vasser, Ganassi from the IRL side, Mario and a couple others favor the melding of the two.....much the same as 90 percent or so of the forum posters on the boards I've read.

It seems to be, as TG and Clarke headed to Japan yesterday, that the Motegi-Long Beach schedule is the only thing of any consequence hanging up the deal. If there were any other major hurdles, why go to Japan to solve this one first?

The CC owners are also between a rock and a hard place in throwing good money after bad. They have spent a ton on CC with no profit projection in sight and quite probably more subsidizing needed to have a reasonable field of cars. They already cut way back on their TV buy. I'd guess contracts have not yet been signed for the track rentals and self-promotes if these talks have been going on for awhile.

The CC owners still own Long Beach, Pi and Cosworth as potential profit makers, plus their own race teams if this goes through. I'm not certain of this -- I'd hafta check with my tax guy -- but I believe if you write off losses on a business five years in a row, it's considered by the IRS as a hobby, not a business, and writeoff deductions for it are disallowed. I say that because I was once involved in a business where that was an issue, but that was many moons ago and tax laws may have changed since then.

There are a lot of things in play here but if TG & Co. are successful at resolving the Motegi-Long Beach issue, IMO, we're going to see a stronger single series, albeit that some venues that won't make the cut at least initially are more popular with some people than others.

A done deal? Let's hope so.

http://www.goldcoast.com.au/article/2008/02/11/7646_gold-coast-top-story.html

If the Long Beach / Motegi problem is the only thing stopping this merger, then surely Honda would move it for the sake of helping it????

A done deal? Let's hope so.

http://www.goldcoast.com.au/article/2008/02/11/7646_gold-coast-top-story.html

That would be the best news for Indy Car racing since 1995.

Lets hope its true

A done deal? Let's hope so.

http://www.goldcoast.com.au/article/2008/02/11/7646_gold-coast-top-story.html

That link sounds very encouraging....they were basically saying they have merged..

Autosport suggests otherwise:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65062

That was earlier though...

That link sounds very encouraging....they were basically saying they have merged..

that story lists Ryan Briscoe to Team Australia as part of the deal :eek:

that must be a typo,.... I wonder what Roger Penske has to say about that??

MUST be a typo or misunderstanding....or just plain mistake.

Either one of those IC! :laugh:

The Briscoe/Team Australia thing makes me sorely question the accuracy of this report. One of the key racing sites should carry something official within 24 hours if a deal really is finalised.

I don't think it's done yet, Boots. Tony George and Robert Clarke are in Japan now to meet with officials at Motegi about moving dates to remove the conflict with Long Beach. That is said to be the only major hurdle to this bearing fruit. A track can't announce anything yet because it hasn't really happened officially yet. For any of you near Indy, RM and Walker are scheuled to be on Channel 6 with Dave Furst at 11:30 p.m. Indy time tonight. I'm sure their thoughts will be interesting, but I doubt we know anything official with details at least until TG and Clarke return from Japan.

I have be giving this topic a rethink since my last post,i think the cart teams will have an unfair advantage because they wont have time to get to know the IRl races and they will be stuggling to race against the top IRL teams.Think if the merger does happen it should be for 2009
so that everyone can be testing with the same tests at the same time.so this would be the final year with 2 open wheel series--champcar and IRL.

It's rather amusing that if CC accepts Tony's offers of reunification...The IRL and the sport of 'Indy Car Style Racing' will be more contradicted to the IRL's reason of creation in Tony's very own words back in 1995 to the Indianapolis Star.

I'm sure in 2009 a couple of the less successful IRL races shall be dropped in favor of other CC successful events that couldn't be added this year if there is a merge re-uniting American Open Wheel after 12 years of the split. Therefore there could be a couple-less ovals and more road/street from the CC schedule along worth mainly foreign and road-racing based drivers this will shape a unified series even more international and less oval then in 1995 when Tony felt the need to create the split by creating his child - The Indy Racing League. Which in affect shows to me Tony was only ever interested in control which he never received in CART pre-split, but now would have.


If there's isn't a merge this year, it may not be that bad. Several races can be run without the threat of not being run for one year which would no doubt hinder its future when trying to return the following year. They could get everything sorted out for the future year, and future years. In 1 month before Homestead it seems to much of a rush for me, especially when the split has lasted 12 years.

I also think TG feels the need for CC's numbers because I'm sure Homestead will be 17-18 cars and isn't just all about lets merge now and save AOWR. The IRL isn't in good shape either.

I have be giving this topic a rethink since my last post,i think the cart teams will have an unfair advantage because they wont have time to get to know the IRl races and they will be stuggling to race against the top IRL teams.Think if the merger does happen it should be for 2009
so that everyone can be testing with the same tests at the same time.so this would be the final year with 2 open wheel series--champcar and IRL.

I agree Peter. there are some advtantages with merging for 2009 instead of this year. Maybe CC teams should just do Indy for this year...Whether CC or IRL last 2008 however is a totally different thing.

Robin Miller went on SPEED News about an hour ago, and said:

--Walker is owed $1.5 million by Gore and has a Dallara in his shop.
--Haas hasn't told his staff which series they're going to run but said he'd decide within a couple days.
--TG and Clarke meet with Motegi folks about 11 o'clock Indy time.

Gore may be having financial problems as he put his two Level 1 Franchise Licences up for sale in V8 Supercars. The wine market has collapsed in Australia with a glut on the market. My mates in Queensland have picked up bottles of good wine for $2. The hot real estate market in QLD has slowed way down as well.

This has to be the time to do it. A lot of races will lose out, but getting a single unified field with a single (largely American) direction is vital. I'm not sure it can even wait another year. Losing the Panoz cars would be a shame - maybe a ballasting system can be arranged to allow those to race against the Dallaras on the road/street courses, maybe alongside the same teams' regular Dallaras? I doubt Motegi will be a sticking point - Honda have far more to gain from the merger than they would have from moving or even cancelling this race. Alternatively, why not Suzuka?

Hope the loss of Champ Car Panoz design could head to a Panoz DP02 adapted to IRL regs. Stripping the spec-chassis and becoming a multi-chassis series it could be one of the best thing that could happen to Indycars.

It's rather amusing that if CC accepts Tony's offers of reunification...The IRL and the sport of 'Indy Car Style Racing' will be more contradicted to the IRL's reason of creation in Tony's very own words back in 1995 to the Indianapolis Star.

I'm sure in 2009 a couple of the less successful IRL races shall be dropped in favor of other CC successful events that couldn't be added this year if there is a merge re-uniting American Open Wheel after 12 years of the split. Therefore there could be a couple-less ovals and more road/street from the CC schedule along worth mainly foreign and road-racing based drivers this will shape a unified series even more international and less oval then in 1995 when Tony felt the need to create the split by creating his child - The Indy Racing League. Which in affect shows to me Tony was only ever interested in control which he never received in CART pre-split, but now would have.


If there's isn't a merge this year, it may not be that bad. Several races can be run without the threat of not being run for one year which would no doubt hinder its future when trying to return the following year. They could get everything sorted out for the future year, and future years. In 1 month before Homestead it seems to much of a rush for me, especially when the split has lasted 12 years.

I also think TG feels the need for CC's numbers because I'm sure Homestead will be 17-18 cars and isn't just all about lets merge now and save AOWR. The IRL isn't in good shape either.

It was always about money and power, Tony George against the major owners of CART and than Tony George against Kevin Kalkhoven. It has been a long protracted struggle with the only benefits going to F1 and NASCAR. And every minute that goes by without unification keeps the blood spilling and makes both series increasingly irrelevent.

Tony George won the war however. He will be the head honcho, the one calling the shots and reaping the potential huge profits. Forsythe and Kalkhoven need to swallow their pride and get on with it because their intractable stance serves no one save competing racing series like F1 and NASCAR.

Any true fan of the sport (any fan who puts their allegience to this type of racing ahead of F1 at least) wants it settled now.

It was always about money and power, Tony George against the major owners of CART and than Tony George against Kevin Kalkhoven. It has been a long protracted struggle with the only benefits going to F1 and NASCAR. And every minute that goes by without unification keeps the blood spilling and makes both series increasingly irrelevent.

Tony George won the war however. He will be the head honcho, the one calling the shots and reaping the potential huge profits. Forsythe and Kalkhoven need to swallow their pride and get on with it because their intractable stance serves no one save competing racing series like F1 and NASCAR.

Any true fan of the sport (any fan who puts their allegience to this type of racing ahead of F1 at least) wants it settled now.
Tony George was always going to win. Even if a merger happened in 1999 at the height of CART's power, and the result was CART's board of directors remaining in power, Tony would be considered the winner, because to most people open-wheel racing is the Indy 500, and having all of the sport's teams back at the Brickyard would be their sticking point.

A merger means that Tony's in charge, but friendly relations with team owners at last may create a culture where give-and-take in regulatory matters could be a possibility in the near future.

rush1, you have espoused the thinking of many that I disagree somewhat with.

Yes, I have always been FOR one series centered by the "500" because I think that's the best it can be.

But CC and IRL, neither one, are "fighting" F-1 and NASCAR for some mythical trophy of world supremacy. This is the sports entertainment industry, not a Texas Death Match on RAW with everybody else in racing.

They don't NEED to be better by our hardcore fan standards than F1 or NASCAR. Long Beach's ratings have been low and PARTLY because the race has been run against the final round of the Masters golf tournament. The IRL changed its season end date to avoid football, The Chase and the World Series to try for better ratings and attract viewers so they might become fans.

CART had a reputation for getting into supremacy issues with everybody in racing, and CC hasn't really been any better, but racing is part of a much larger pie for the sports entertainment dollar in the United States.

A combined series including the "500" is very likely to be a more significant factor in that environment.

rush1, you have espoused the thinking of many that I disagree somewhat with.

Yes, I have always been FOR one series centered by the "500" because I think that's the best it can be.

But CC and IRL, neither one, are "fighting" F-1 and NASCAR for some mythical trophy of world supremacy. This is the sports entertainment industry, not a Texas Death Match on RAW with everybody else in racing.

They don't NEED to be better by our hardcore fan standards than F1 or NASCAR. Long Beach's ratings have been low and PARTLY because the race has been run against the final round of the Masters golf tournament. The IRL changed its season end date to avoid football, The Chase and the World Series to try for better ratings and attract viewers so they might become fans.

CART had a reputation for getting into supremacy issues with everybody in racing, and CC hasn't really been any better, but racing is part of a much larger pie for the sports entertainment dollar in the United States.

A combined series including the "500" is very likely to be a more significant factor in that environment.

I am for a healthy Indy Racing League (or whatever a merged outfit would be called), NASCAR and F1. However, The winner of last years 500 and series champion left the IRL for NASCAR, three time IRL champion Sam Hornish left the IRL for NASCAR, Toyota left and is in NASCAR, four time champ car champion Bourdais left champ car for F1, Tony Stewart left the IRL many years prior for NASCAR.

F1 and NASCAR is the competition. Drivers follow the money and the much of the big money has left the champ cars and indy cars for the aforementioned series. Only a unified series can attract and retain world class talent. Only a unified series can bring back other engine manufacturers and sponsors with the cash to retain the drivers.

Tony George was always going to win. Even if a merger happened in 1999 at the height of CART's power, and the result was CART's board of directors remaining in power, Tony would be considered the winner, because to most people open-wheel racing is the Indy 500, and having all of the sport's teams back at the Brickyard would be their sticking point.

A merger means that Tony's in charge, but friendly relations with team owners at last may create a culture where give-and-take in regulatory matters could be a possibility in the near future.

I agree with your post, TG was always smart enough to realize he retained the ace in the hole, the Indianapolis 500.

When its all over, I hope there is a press conference where Tony George and Kevin Kalhoven shake hands and agree to work together and grow the sport. A scenario where the IRL poaches a couple of champ car teams and shuts down the competition would be unfortunate.

A scenario where everyone comes together in an amiable agreement would be the best outcome, I think we can all agree on that.

I agree with everything you said except that F1 and NASCAR are not the ONLY competition for sponsorship and the sports entertainment dollar, which makes it possible for the sport to grow enough to make it worthwhile for the dollars to flow into it, so drivers and teams can get paid more dollars, and it is worth it for TV to pay more dollars, etc.

They run on dollars before they run on ethanol.

I agree with everything you said except that F1 and NASCAR are not the ONLY competition for sponsorship and the sports entertainment dollar, which makes it possible for the sport to grow enough to make it worthwhile for the dollars to flow into it, so drivers and teams can get paid more dollars, and it is worth it for TV to pay more dollars, etc.

They run on dollars before they run on ethanol.

You're right they're not the only competition but in terms of the Motorsport dollar i think they nearly are. Most money coming into motorsport prefer to be little stickers in the big pond rather than being a naming rights sponsor in something else ie CC or IRL. Even Moto GP struggle for sponsorship because companies only think of F1 and the huge corporate get together.

Back to multiple mountainstar and d.r.t. & other harsh posts about TG:
I understand your position, you're far from stupid and see very well that the term "merger" is an euphemistic excuse to define what's a real collapse of CC and definitive prevail of IRL.
Whenever the "merger" happens (2008 or 2009) it's just CC teams migrating to IRL and IRL just picking the CC best events to enrich their schedule.

You've been very passionate supporters of CC and now you're cannot stand the current situation, even though it's the best solution available for the AOWR

BTW: italiaracing reports (in english)

http://italiaracing.net/notizia.asp?id=17955&cat=3

something interesting about Derrick Walker

edited to reflect more clearly what poster meant - please take it in the spirit intended - p-c

I think that anyone who is suggesting that the CC teams will be "disadvantaged" at the 500 needs to go back and look at the results when CC teams have participated in the 500.

I agree in principle with Fish_Flake and rush1 - this needs to be one series and it needs to be one series now.

Fazzaz, as always, a good summary of the inputs teams will be using as they do their cost/benefit analysis...

All other things equal, a team which is used to the cars in a race, and has regularly been doing oval racing, will be at an advantage over one which has not. It's just that the CART teams which did the Indy 500 in 2001/2002 were generally a lot stronger (better funded, better staff, better drivers) than the IRL regulars - as demonstrated by the way they have dominated since switching. Other than NHL, no current ChampCar team is the equal of Penske or Ganassi on paper, so they would struggle in a combined series.

...Other than NHL, no current ChampCar team is the equal of Penske or Ganassi on paper, so they would struggle in a combined series.

But not exclusively because of an experience gap, just because they're less funded and organised.

They would struggle as well as they struggle now in CC.

Evry series has mid/backfield teams, who nontheless find it convenient to be there

Well, time will tell, but keep in mind Boots that many of the CC teams are staffed by folks with a great deal of oval experience.

Better to have this discussion though than the "How can both survive?" discussion...

Anyone can see that now Tony George has his hands free to do the merge with Champ Cars since Bernie stripped him the USA GP at Indianapolis?
In the past, the merge could be threaten by Bernie at the price to lose the F1 race, and now when it was done anyways, TG has nothing to lose.

Anyone can see that now Tony George has his hands free to do the merge with Champ Cars since Bernie stripped him the USA GP at Indianapolis?
In the past, the merge could be threaten by Bernie at the price to lose the F1 race, and now when it was done anyways, TG has nothing to lose.

Expect the Indy GP to be back on the schedule in 09'. Bernie would have had no hand in preventing a merger.

I wouldn't be so optimistic about F1 back to Indy, but I agree that Bernie, for once, doesn't belong in this match

I don't think Bernie is involved, or cares about it.

I hope he'll have to care some day ;)

Back to multiple mountainstar and d.r.t. & other harsh posts about TG:
I understand your position, you're all but stupid and see very well that the term "merger" is an euphemistic excuse to define what's a real collapse of CC and definitive prevail of IRL.
Whenever the "merger" happens (2008 or 2009) it's just CC teams migrating to IRL and IRL just picking the CC best events to enrich their schedule.

You've been very passionate supporters of CC and now you're cannot stand the current situation, even though it's the best solution available for the AOWR

BTW: italiaracing reports (in english)http://italiaracing.net/notizia.asp?id=17955&cat=3[/url]

something interesting about Derrick Walker

Believe what you want. The irl is struggling for sponsors and some say only 13 cars may be on deck for homestead. tony george is moving fast because he needs to fill his field and quick. Champcar teams will just be the latest lemmings in the long line of out of business and bankrupt former irl teams. This sell out is only for tony's immediate gratification. When has tony ever moved so quick on a deal? Or put so much effort in?

The saying goes "FOOLS RUSH IN".

I think they are going to make a huge mess out of this by rushing it so quick. Rather than putting in place a proper structure and schedule for 2009, it's going to be a mess and lawsuits are apparently on deck already. I think people are foolishly underestimating that you only get one shot to do this right and bring the public back.

In terms of the irl prevailing I think you're dead wrong. It's a hollow victory. There is almost nothing left to fight over. Almost every fan is gone. Almost every sponsor is gone. Every car manufacturer. Many venues as well. What did you win? If the irl was so great it wouldn't need anything champcar has right?

I read an interesting blog last night:

http://popoffvalve.wordpress.com/

At one time I thought that an open wheel merger could be accomplished with mutual respect and dignity, that there could be a return of all people in the sport to the same venues at the same time, and that we could all enjoy our passion again while enjoying being together. As the years passed, this hope faded, but I still thought that merger, though no doubt difficult and painful, would probably lead to the best outcome in the long run. Now, I am not so sure. I dare not think what the next week will bring for American open wheel racing. I feel that many fans are probably feeling the same way, hoping for the best, while fearing the worst. If things happen as they are rumored to, I am afraid that what we will see on opening day at Indianapolis will be the racing equivalent of the period between WWI and WWII. A cease fire, a truce, perhaps even a treaty, but a situation so hateful and full of resentment that only a fool would believe the war is over.

ms, it depends on who's doing the rushing. KK is the one talking about ultimatums and deadlines and the like as if he's wagging the dog. He's also talked out of both sides of his mouth.

Do we really know who's doing the rushing and why?

ms, it depends on who's doing the rushing. KK is the one talking about ultimatums and deadlines and the like as if he's wagging the dog. He's also talked out of both sides of his mouth.

Do we really know who's doing the rushing and why?

I love the way you like to take shots at KK and CC at anytime you can.

So no word out of Japan yet?

*struggles to see the need to get defensive/offensive*

This thread is done until there's actual news.

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/champ-car-heading-for-bankruptcy/

Miller saying CC will file bankruptcy in 24-48 hours.

Maybe Miller releasing that news will force Champ Car to cancel their bankruptcy filing :rofl:

:laugh:

So no word out of Japan yet?

Yes, this seems to be sorted out

http://italiaracing.net/notizia.asp?id=17967&cat=3

Believe what you want. ...

Yeah, that's what I usually do! :p

I have to guess you believe what others want? ;)

Curt Cavin's story has a bnit more detail/speculation - Motegi and Surfers as non Championship races?

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080212/SPORTS0107/302120004/1010/LOCAL14

Clarke optimistic of merger.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65096

I would imagine the sources for Italia racing may well be at Dallara, which may well have received some orders.

Everybody is still at work today at Champcar. Still waiting to see what happens.

Various rumors posted today elsewhere say that SJ has told staff 2008 is on and apparently there will be a Board of Directors meeting tomorrow with a budget for 2008 to be approved. Looks like Kalkoven may exit though.

Several people have called Laguna and Long Beach and they say Champcar is still on deck.

I guess we will find out by the end of the week.

If it does go though I'm definitely going to be at as many races as my schedule will allow.

Everybody is still at work today at Champcar. Still waiting to see what happens.

As would be the case in any business that still continues to function. Until it is closed, it is open.

The filing of bankruptcy is likely to be public as early as tonight, but certainly by the end of the week. I'm sorry for those who are holding out for some hope, but it simply is over now (or will be in the next day or so).

So I guess we know tommorow. I'd been curious if there was a falling out betwen KK and GF

It is for the best anyways. I'd rather Champcar did this than try to struggle on for a final year. 12 car grids would not be a fitting way to bow out.

Apparently robin miller reported champcar carries on for 2008 with Forsythe being the main man. Hopefully we will know more before the evening is out.

Apparently robin miller reported champcar carries on for 2008 with Forsythe being the main man. Hopefully we will know more before the evening is out.

Robin cracks me up sometimes.

You have to wade through whatever he talks/writes about, and try and figure out which half is the truth, and which half isn't. I have to wonder, does he do this on purpose, or is he often misled by others to keep him from actually getting the whole story correct....

Robin cracks me up sometimes.

You have to wade through whatever he talks/writes about, and try and figure out which half is the truth, and which half isn't. I have to wonder, does he do this on purpose, or is he often misled by others to keep him from actually getting the whole story correct....

Probably only 3 or 4 people in the world know the whole story right now, but it looks like something happened today. I'm sure it will become apparent what exactly is happening within a few days.

I have no opposition to a unified series, but the half assed rushed way it was being done was going to make a mess. I think it would do more harm than good. I'd rather see a proper structure and schedule in place for 2009.

I have no opposition to a unified series, but the half assed rushed way it was being done was going to make a mess. I think it would do more harm than good. I'd rather see a proper structure and schedule in place for 2009.

I agree, but what would be left of Champ Car now since Miller broke the story. Trying to run a CC series now would not be wise.

I think Champ Car should merge as one, not teams moving this and then some in 09.

Probably only 3 or 4 people in the world know the whole story right now, but it looks like something happened today. I'm sure it will become apparent what exactly is happening within a few days.

I have no opposition to a unified series, but the half assed rushed way it was being done was going to make a mess. I think it would do more harm than good. I'd rather see a proper structure and schedule in place for 2009.

Who knows how many people know the whole story, and very few will ever know it anyway. Yes, it would seem as though something happened today, and we shall know what that is, and what it means over the next few days.

As far as this being rushed, I agree that this hasn't been done optimally for the best light to be portrayed on Open Wheel moving forward. I can only speculate that someone capitulated here at the last minute, not liking what they saw, or finding out that entries/monies weren't what was expected.

I wrote in this very forum a number of months ago, that it was over. I believe I wasn't the only one who had that opinion. If I could see those signs months ago, I can only wonder why others didn't. Really, the writing was on the wall, and this should have been completed in the last months of 07', before teams bought new cars, arranged for new sponsors, tested new drivers... and basically wasted time, energy and money on a pointless endeavour. I agree the timing was off, but running an 08' season, in the manner it was shaping up, really wouldn't have reflected any better than the way this has unfolded. Ok, it's over, and the result isn't optimal, but the sooner Open Wheel can "try" and repair all of the wounds and damage done, the better.

Really, the writing was on the wall, and this should have been completed in the last months of 07', before teams bought new cars, arranged for new sponsors, tested new drivers... and basically wasted time, energy and money on a pointless endeavour.

As with previous mergers though, you needed to have a back up plan, a bargaining point as you will. New cars, sponsors, drivers were needed if a merger didnt go through.

I agree the timing was off, but running an 08' season, in the manner it was shaping up, really wouldn't have reflected any better than the way this has unfolded.

Prior to the Miller story, the ChampCar team and driver line up was shaping up ok. Sebring brought out the teams and put on some impressive performances that were setting up the season.

Add to that, the IRL at the same time didnt have anymore than 14 cars confirmed puts things in a better perspective.

Since the story broke, everything has regrettably spiraled to the point of ridiculous.

David Phillips mirrors much of what I have said about a rushed deal:

Have a read:

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/phillips-a-ripple-becomes-a-tsunami/

Whatever you think of this - the cat is further out of the bag than it has ever been before - there is no putting the cat back in - at least not without breaking a lot of things.
Whenever this meger happened, people were going to get burnt - it was always going to be the case - I think Racer said it at the beginning of the year that if it happened many people were going to lose business, lose money. But is a bit of short term pain better the potential longer term gains?

Whether this thing happens tomorrow or in 2009, people will still get burnt. Conquest and Coyne will still have cars with a lot of life left in them, Haas will still have a lot of spares, these things would still be true - but not to the extent they are now. And what if the merger happens in 2009, are we going to have ever dwindling fields in 2008? What advantage does that give anyone?

As for Champ Car Atlantic - there is no reason why they still can't function. Tak themselves onto ALMS, or IRL/CCWS or Grand Am or something - they can still function - create new deals. Wouldn't it be great to have a pathway for both the IPS and CCA Champs to whatever Open Wheel category exists?

Once merged, a real apprasial of what they have can take place, and things can start to be built - mend bridges with Panoz, Mazda and all the suppliers - create something great. There were years that Reynard and Lola, Swift etc sold 20-30 CART cars a year and still made money, I know that situation is different but surely a merger won't spell doom and gloom for all the other suppliers around.

I saw somthing like this coming back round Assen. I was told from some of my peeps to expect something big in Feb - and what are we in now??? Have no idea if this is what was expected but this is what we got

But whatever happens from here, things have changed and 2008 will be different to what anyone expected.

With a rush together and cancelation of so much, you're talking of making a lot of amends, many with people who will not be willing.

Someone's always going to lose in a bankruptcy or merger or melding of a couple racing series or whatever you want to call this. How many people have lost already, before these talks even got started, including fans who haven't gotten a full one series show of Indy cars for 12 years? CART shareholders? Promoters like the guys in Vegas and San Jose? Sponsors who've gotten minimal ROI?

Sure, things like CC owing $300,000 to the company which fixed all their fuel cells a year ago, that company loses. It isn't the ONLY loss.

The sooner it comes together, the SPORT wins. And if the SPORT wins, then it can stabilize and grow from there and get more money back into it.

I agree with indycool. Sooner or later something has to give. If it is better for the sport to have Champ Car fold, then that's what it'll have to take.

It really pains me to say that because I am a die-hard Champ Car fan and have supported it through its darkest times like so many of us.

Having said that, I am not giving up hope yet!

Reading an article in Auto Action talking to Will Power, he sounds like he is already preparing himself to run in IRL/Merged, whatever you want to call it. He mentioned that he'll probably be fighting for a top 10 when he was hoping to be a chance for CC crown.

Maybe all these articles being printed and causing probable trouble with venues is what KK was talking about when he said things have hit a road block now the media is involved.

I think they might have been trying to keep it a secret and just make one announcement, oh well people talk:cool:

...
I think they are going to make a huge mess out of this by rushing it so quick. Rather than putting in place a proper structure and schedule for 2009, it's going to be a mess and lawsuits are apparently on deck already. I think people are foolishly underestimating that you only get one shot to do this right and bring the public back.

Could be a good point, but if most of the few current CC teams decide to switch to IRL, does it have a sense to keep CC alive? With only the series owners teams?

...

In terms of the irl prevailing I think you're dead wrong. It's a hollow victory. There is almost nothing left to fight over. Almost every fan is gone. Almost every sponsor is gone. Every car manufacturer.

No, only you for now. Identifying yourself with the whole AOWR world is a bit too much IMO

...
Many venues as well. What did you win? If the irl was so great it wouldn't need anything champcar has right?


Provided I personally win nothing, since i'm just a fan from Italy, IRL is doesn't need anything CC has, it's just a pity not to save two or three venues which are particularly successful (or, to better say, the only successful ones from the CC schedule)



...
I read an interesting blog last night:

... I am afraid that what we will see on opening day at Indianapolis will be the racing equivalent of the period between WWI and WWII. A cease fire, a truce, perhaps even a treaty, but a situation so hateful and full of resentment that only a fool would believe the war is over.

Dunno who wrote that masterpiece of historic knowledge; imo comparing AOWR troubles with WWI and WWII is just the joke of the year.
Particularly that reference to "resentment": who should feel resentment since it's all about businessmen doing business? All the original Cart leaders have gone, or switched to IRL years ago.
The most CC die-hard team boss, Paul Newman is delighted by this "merge", then this hypothesis is just wishful thinking from someone who have a personal problem with TG

As it turns out, Forsythe is also telling his team that the will continue in Champcar, to prepare for Laguna. This guy was going to field one car, then didn't pay attention last season, then was going to dump Tracy, but now is going to go it alone to run Champcar? This is truly bizarre.

Forsythe seems really bitter about the whole thing. It doesn't matter, really, Walker and PKV are set to switch regardless, which means Kalkhoven will leave the board of Directors, and I'm pretty sure NHL will follow suit. If Forsythe wants to try and carry on with whats left then he's free to, but I can't rea