Welcome to the Unified American Open Wheel Forum

Given that, sooner or later, this seems to be the way things will be, our choice is to quit, moan about what once was, or start discussing what will be, and how it might grow from here.

I choose the last option.

Frankly, aesthetically I don't like the Dallaras. I think the DP01s aren't great tools to work with overall, either, although they look better. I like the Cossies, have no opinion on the Hondas as I've not heard them in person. I think new chassis regs will have to come, soon, to encorporate the newer safety requirements (I know the IRL was already considering easier access cockpits, so new tubs are on their way anyway). So, ultimately, new chassis. Hopefully 2 or 3 constructors can be accommodated.

I think the cars as they stand are over-winged.

I think a good option for engines would be to start with LMP2 (Le Mans spec) engines, which provides for varying sizes and configurations (including turbos and diesels!). Just up the target power range from the LMP2 570 to 700 by adjusting the restrictor tables. You might want to consider different specs for oval vs road (more power in road trim) as a ruleset, but only with engine developers' okay - they'd have to provide different maps for different restrictor sizes.

If you need to reduce the speeds on ovals, it is the cornering speed that needs to decrease, not the overall speed. Less downforce (both wing and under-car) and less grip (narrower tires?) might be worth exploring. I think the lower downforce spec would probably help for road racing as well, as then you wouldn't lose as much downforce when you're right behind someone.

On schedules, I'm no big fan of street courses for two reasons - there's no runoff (no margin for error) and fan access is seriously restricted because fans aren't higher than the track. However, if they work from a business perspective (Toronto with Molsons or someone like it; Edmonton with Rexall; Long Beach with Toyota Dealers of Long Beach) then they should survive.

I love road courses, and if Toronto can't survive, I'd like to see Mosport added. I think it would make money and provide great racing. Laguna Seca, Road America, Road Atlanta, Mid Ohio are all part of what I picture as a solid schedule.

On ovals, I worry about ISC ownership and their lack of interest in promoting their current races; strong ties to any and all independent oval owners need to be cultivated. (For the same reason I left Watkins Glen off the road course list.)

I think a slight bias toward oval racing is natural for North American racing - I'd always imagined a 21 race schedule, ultimately, with 10 ovals, 10 road/street courses, and Indy as the crown.

Anyway, have at it! Tell me why I'm crazy...

Sounds sensible enough to me Paul, the trouble I have is believing that even 1/2 of what you list will come about.

Yes, Paul you are crazy, totally insane in fact.:laugh:

I think the first step is for tony george to be contrite and admit his own role in this mess, say he's sorry and find a way to bring champcar fans into the fold. If he just does a big F U, then it's war.

I know some are going to disagree, because they believe tony is a saint and can do no wrong. But if you really want to bring things back together the fans are a part of that and there is a lot of bad blood in the water.

Personally for me if there is no contrition, then it's civil disobedience for me. I have a hard time being a spectator now anyways now that my own career is moving along. Plus I've got V8 Supercars, ALMS, DTM, A1, Rally, etc to follow. I will get by.

In addition, these cars will live on in historics for years to come and 5-10-15-20 years down the road hopefully I'll be wealthy enough to buy one. I've had an investment fund since 2004 that is solely for purchasing a Lola or Reynard chassis. Like Can-Am or Imsa, the series may die but the history doesn't.

In regards to the cars, the current dallaras are ugly as hell and the honda's are horrible sounding engines. Why this obsession lately with ugly race cars like COT in Nascar? I think they need a new formula and they need to open up the rules to new manufacturers for engines and cars.

I like street courses if done well. Races like Cleveland need to be included. Lanigan turned that race around last year.

Civil Disobedience is all well and good, elsewhere, MS.

;)

I don't know if contrition is forthcoming, and I'm unsure it's even necessary in the form you're suggesting. If you can't bring yourself to join in, in good faith, I guess we'll just have to soldier on. All the best.

welcome to the new Unified series
sounds good
anyone read the last Robin Miller article at speed about Champcar declaring bankruptcy in the next 24 -48 hours
wow how miserable this whole thing has been.

so any potential names for the new series? or will we fall back on the good standard the IndyCar World series? (would that be the "IRL- indycar world series" or just IndyCar?)

Civil Disobedience is all well and good, elsewhere, MS.

;)

I don't know if contrition is forthcoming, and I'm unsure it's even necessary in the form you're suggesting. If you can't bring yourself to join in, in good faith, I guess we'll just have to soldier on. All the best.

Oh I'll be here in good faith. Always have been. Indycool's anti-thesis one could say. Keeping the irl on the level. The watchdog of watchdogs.:p

I came up with the name "American Open-Wheel" forum.

Alas my other "Ideas" were strictly ignored. So don't worry. You can still wear clothes...for now.

Anyway, i'm just stealing credit for the great name. If you don't like it, forward all calls to my left butt cheek. :)

Geezaz MS, get over it, you never had any chance against TG, at least in KKWS era. TG will not apologize anyone, he won that battle and war, if someone doesn't want to jump the fence can always go and watch Atlantics or race atlantics (teams).

I AM HAPPY!!

Paul, Hazza, thanks!

Paul - some good thoughts there - a number of them mirror what ALMS is moving toward. Do you think there might be some difficulty differentiating the two series down the road?

Otherwise, I am all for engine/chassis diversity. what could be more "green" than recycling some offie engines...

No doubt this had to be done. I'm not sure on the whole variety of engines thing, as in petrol/deisel/turbo/non-turbo/bio-fuel. I think they need a set of regs to go forward with. It may start as a single chassis/engine manufacturer but if they're moving towards something it may encourage others to re-enter the series. I think in the long run maybe 2 or 3 engine/chassis combinations is a good thing.

I'm happy for the good street courses to stay. Long Beach, Toronto and Surfers Paradise, Cleveland and even Edmonton now. All provide either good racing or historical significance to the series. Even Surfers has been around for 17 odd years. (wow time flies, i still remember being there watching J. Andretti take the flag in his yellow pennzoil machine)

Without going into the whole war thing, but i fail to see how TG won the war when he is far from operating a successful series himself, but enough of that, that's not what this is for. Hopefully in the very short future we will be commenting on a common series with a common goal.

...
I think the first step is for tony george to be contrite and admit his own role in this mess, say he's sorry and find a way to bring champcar fans into the fold. If he just does a big F U, then it's war.

:coolit:
Once again you identify yourself with a lot of people; whereas it's just your single, personal opinion

...
I know some are going to disagree, because they believe tony is a saint and can do no wrong. ....

That's what many tend to think after reading your posts; since you make him look like a martyr; blame it (almost) all to yourself, you naughty Al CCaida ultra fan! ;)

No one has won. We all have lost. The only thing we have learned these last 13 or so years is that there should be only one top-tier open wheel series.

I just hope this ends soon...

Anyway - paul, you clearly want to talk about the "what could be" here, so lets do that!

I agree with the aero being too much in play. My take would be to link the amount of aero directly to the size of the motor. The more powerful the engine, the less aero you get.

Tim Northcutt had posted many moons ago his thoughts on keeping the manufacturers at bay regarding engines. One of the things I remember was that the engines should be maintained by the teams rather than the manufacturer to help hold down costs.

I really think what any top tier open wheel series needs in this country is a set of rules that makes innovation possible - and not necessarily by spending cubic dollars. Allow the teams to pick chassis/engine/aero combinations based on what they think will work best for them or will provide the best combination of results over the season.

Tim Northcutt had posted many moons ago his thoughts on keeping the manufacturers at bay regarding engines. One of the things I remember was that the engines should be maintained by the teams rather than the manufacturer to help hold down costs.

I really think what any top tier open wheel series needs in this country is a set of rules that makes innovation possible - and not necessarily by spending cubic dollars. Allow the teams to pick chassis/engine/aero combinations based on what they think will work best for them or will provide the best combination of results over the season.

Just two things there. The only prob with the teams maintaining the engines would be that he who spends the most dollars will win. It's ok for the manufacturers to look after the engines but put in the rules that they have to last 2 rounds or something.

One thing i thought CC were on to was with the new panoz it started as a spec chassis and then as time went on, as in this year which looks like it won't, they would open up certain parts of the car to personal development. IMO that's a good idea. Everyone is not spending millions on the whole car throughout the year.

I agree that maintaining engines is an expense, but the way Tim pitched it, the initial cost for the engine would be much lower as the "lease/purchase" from the manufacturer would not include maintenance. Of course, I may not be recalling this correctly, but I believe that to have been the gist of Tim's point.

Spec or not, teams are going to spend a lot on cars as they fine-tune them. Look what Penske does with their cars as far as cleaning them up aerodynamically.

The point to racing is to go fast. At this level a "spec" series is not going to hold down costs necessarily. The teams will just spend the $$ developing a better rear-veiw mirror or something.

Engine/Chassis diversity is one way to bring some interest BACK to open wheel. It should be innovative. You want same car for everyone then there are plenty of series including NASCAR to see that. Open wheel's strength for many years was diversity and at times innovation (see Lotus at Indy). Returning to that mode won't necessarily be a budget-breaker.

Innovation is the key. If IndyCar wants to attract major automakers to support the series, it must provide a playing field that allows them to showcase new ideas. Tony George wanted to use production engines when he started the IRL, but the problem was that only Oldsmobile and Infiniti were willing to build the engines he wanted for their automobiles. Purpose-built 3-liter V8s have been beaten to the ground in every realm of formula racing, and have almost no relation to any street-legal car on the road; why would any manufacturer put millions of dollars into such a development program?

This is the problem with most single-seater racing series today: changes to the formula are almost always an evolution rather than a revolution. Sanctioning bodies don't want speeds to increase, but they don't want to slow down the cars to a significant degree, either. As a result, rules are implemented as stop-gap solutions to keep lap times stagnant while the equipment continues on its development cycle. Decisions in regard to technology is made looking a year into the future instead of a decade. A new IndyCar formula needs to be allowed to mature over the course of several years. Instead of a new car lapping Indy at around 225 when first introduced (and having to curb development almost immediately to keep top speeds in check), set the formula in such a way that it only laps Indy around 210 or 215 its first time out. Let the car follow its natural development cycle so that it doesn't reach that 225-230 threshold for five or six years after it is phased in.

As for diversity, what about the diversity of drivers? While it's great to see Formula Atlantic thriving despite the struggles of its parent, I have great concern over the vertical integration that is prevalent in both Formula 1 and American open-wheel: the only path to a top-level single-seater ride is to start out in karts, then take each step up the appropriate feeder series ladder.

It used to be that top-level single-seater racing featured the best drivers from all disciplines competing against each other. Out of the three drivers who have won the Indy 500 four times, one had a background as a midget-car driver, one a hillclimber, and one an off-road racer. Many of the American drivers who emerged in the 80s and early 90s made their way to CART through IMSA sports cars. When the split occurred, CART could claim America's greatest motorcycle road racer as a competitor, and the IRL could claim America's greatest motocross rider. The Villeneuves were originally a family of snowmobilers. Mario Andretti began his career in modified stock cars. Danny Ongais started out as a drag racer.

For the most part, this role that IndyCar played in attracting great racers of every kind has been swallowed up by NASCAR. They are the ones drawing in the young drivers making a name for themselves in sprint cars, in off-road vehicles, in sports cars, on motocross bikes, and even in the open-wheel ranks, all the while still finding room to accommodate those coming up the more traditional stock car ladder. When IndyCar reestablishes itself, it needs to find a way to lure those drivers back.

Great post, Fish_Flake!

I gotta say i agree with most of that. I do believe they do have to find a way to keep costs down though while the series is in the initial regrowth stage. I don't know the answer and i don't think it will be easy.

The last part is definitely true. I still think a lot to do with the struggle of both series is the lack of American drivers. More so a lack of American drivers with a genuine chance of winning. Now that Hornish is gone from the IRL, besides Andretti it is pretty thin. Danica is good but is never going to be great IMO. And about the only driver CC has to offer is Rahal.

I still want to see Power v Briscoe v Dixon. Yaaah for Oz.

Al Unser junior has about 14 kids, can we get any of them in there :)

Yes I think, too, that AOWR must increase their US identity. That's why I think that CC was taking a wrong direction.

If V8's are getting old, lets do something real crazy like make them run Bio Diesel engines that are turbo charged, or 4 Cylinder Turbo's, or Hybrid Engines, something crazy that will attract auto makers and the public.

About engines: the thing that must be remembered is that since World War I, a period of over ninety years, American championship racing has seen only three epochs of engine development, using the cars of the Indianapolis 500 as a benchmark. If one uses the lineage of what is now Champ Car, that number is just two, and if one wants to be truly comprehensive and include the old SCCA Formula A/Formula 5000/single-seater Can Am championships, the total can be stretched out to four. In addition, each era can be characterized by one or two manufacturers who came to dominate the sport at that time.

Engine Eras in American Championship Racing, 1919-Present

Miller/Offenhauser, 4.1L atmospheric [later turbocharged] inline-4 (AAA/USAC, 1921-1976)
Chevrolet, 4.9L atmospheric V-8 (SCCA, 1967-1986)
Cosworth/Ilmor, 2.65L turbocharged V-8 (USAC/Champ Car, 1977-present; IRL, 1996)
Aurora/Honda, 3.0-4.0L atmospheric V-8 (IRL, 1997-present)

Compare this to Grand Prix racing, which has seen no fewer than eight such eras, only one of which featuring the hegemony seen in the IndyCar eras.

Engine Eras in Grand Prix Racing, 1919-Present

Open formula, classification based on weight (AIACR, 1919-1937)
4.5L atmospheric or 3.0L [later 1.5L] supercharged open configuration (AIACR/FIA, 1938-1951)
2.5L atmospheric open configuration (FIA, 1954-1960)
1.5L atmospheric open configuration (FIA, 1961-1966)
Cosworth, 3.0L atmospheric V-8 (FIA, 1967-1982)
1.5L turbocharged V-6 or inline-4 (FIA, 1979-1988)
3.0-3.5L atmospheric V-10 (FIA, 1989-2005)
2.4L atmospheric V-8 (FIA, 2006-present)

Beyond engines, another thing that IndyCar has to do is bridge the gap between itself and sprint car racing. This was one of the IRL's founding goals, but attempts to achieve this have resulted in complete failure up to now. Contrary to popular belief, today's distance isn't because Indy and Champ Car turned its back on the short tracks: the fact is that over the last forty years, the design of the IndyCar has changed significantly, while the design of the sprint and midget car has stayed the same, mostly because USAC has refused it to follow suit. With the exception of roll cages, there isn't much difference between the sprints and midgets competing in USAC-aligned (read: wingless) series today to the ones competing in the 1950s, while the wing is only thing distinguishing World of Outlaws-aligned cars from USAC cars.

Adding to this is the fact that USAC has completely lost the plot on the Silver Crown series in an atrocious attempt to redesign the big cars to be suitable for mile and a half cookie-cutter ovals. I mean, just look at this thing. (http://images.circletrack.com/featuredvehicles/0603ctrp_01z+Silver_Crown_Cars+Front_Left_Side_View.jpg) What sort of loving God would bestow upon us such a monstrosity? As one could expect, this car proved to be completely unsafe for larger tracks, and USAC is pulling the plug on it for 2008 due to its universal repugnance among fans and competitors.

Actually, the idea of redesigning the Silver Crown cars -- originally meant to fill the middle ground between short-track cars and IndyCars -- wasn't a bad one, but USAC completely messed up the execution by trying to ride on NASCAR's coattails. If I were in charge of a unified IndyCar series on the upswing, I would view the sprint car community's inability to firmly position itself within the stock car feeder system as room for opportunity. I would approach USAC, the World of Outlaws, and the various regional sanctioning bodies for supermodified racing to propose a joint venture between IndyCar and those series with the mission of building a new generation of short-track car: a sleeker, safer, affordable machine designed for paved ovals over a half-mile long and dirt fairground miles. These cars would be featured on the bill of every IndyCar short oval event (which there would be at least four or five), with a scholarship to the top rung of the development ladder going to the overall champion of the division, either the points leader of a national series or the winner of an end-of-season runoff consisting of the top finishers from regional series.

Your engine categories for AAA/USAC/ CART are totally screwed up.
They are as general in regs. as what you list for F1--you are being myoptic.

They killed the Silver Crown crapmobiles--HIP-HIP-HOOOOOOORAAAAAAAY!
Bob

Your engine categories for AAA/USAC/ CART are totally screwed up.
They are as general in regs. as what you list for F1--you are being myoptic.

They killed the Silver Crown crapmobiles--HIP-HIP-HOOOOOOORAAAAAAAY!
Bob
I'm aware of the fact that regulations over the years have been broader than the ones I list here, and that other suppliers than the ones listed have seen competition. The point I was trying to get across with the list is despite the fact that other manufacturers and other engine configurations have been available over the years, the ones listed proved to be so dominant that they were prerequisite for success at Indy and on the Championship Trail. With the exception of the Cosworth DFV, Grand Prix racing has never seen such a period of time where the only way a team could win races was to possess a particular engine design. Champ Car has competing with evolutions of the same design for over three decades now, and people who want to see that formula established as the norm should realize that its time has come and gone. Meanwhile, the IRL formula leaves much to be desired, and the only conclusion to come to is that a new IndyCar needs to take a step in a new direction in the engine department.

although i feel and many do the Turbo sound is better, the technology is more relevant to future autos from all marques and they can't be ignored.
as far as silver crown goes
yes the Supermods should be aligned to take their place, the look is better the racing is furious, and they can be aligned to get that engine less left bias for longer tracks to accompany the circus to Milwaukee, they race at phoenix and lap faster than IRL cars did....
and for the road racers there is Atlantics, ans IPS as Indylights and toyotaa atlantics before...
this unification can create great things again

I'm aware of the fact that regulations over the years have been broader than the ones I list here, and that other suppliers than the ones listed have seen competition. The point I was trying to get across with the list is despite the fact that other manufacturers and other engine configurations have been available over the years, the ones listed proved to be so dominant that they were prerequisite for success at Indy and on the Championship Trail. With the exception of the Cosworth DFV, Grand Prix racing has never seen such a period of time where the only way a team could win races was to possess a particular engine design. Champ Car has competing with evolutions of the same design for over three decades now, and people who want to see that formula established as the norm should realize that its time has come and gone. Meanwhile, the IRL formula leaves much to be desired, and the only conclusion to come to is that a new IndyCar needs to take a step in a new direction in the engine department.
Until the put a blower on the Offy the Ford DOHC was Dominating the show.

2 Spec series (albeit de-facto spec like IRL) combined should at minimum have 2 chassis & 2 engine options - 4 different combos.

We focus on the future drivers sometimes too much - If F1 is the only non-spec international championship, where do the next car designers come from?

An idea on engines would be to copy the proposed japenese Formula Nippon model - get into bed with a sportscar series & use the same engines (pragmaticly, grand-am would be the best pick).

What is "the Unified American Open Wheel Forum"?

Why not just an Indy Racing League (IRL) Forum Like NACAR and Formula 1 (F1) forum.

Also many of the drivers in the IRL are not American and races will be held outside the US like in Japan, Australia and Canada.

CART ceases to exist, there is nothing to unify now.

they did merge the champcar assest or schedule and agreed to have one series.
its American open wheel forum because that is where it is based in North America... and the drama and schedule and drivers is a nut house of activity where you can not bring in stories from F3-f3000 GP2, F1 and FN, WSR,...
ICS the Indy Car Series is back in the new infancy of wicked cool ness.

The main things I would say are that I think the current IRL engines don't rev high enough. New chasses should be in order, but larger engines are just going to make the cars look bulbous and make them heavy (not to mention, you'll have to restrict them ridiculously). If F1 is hopelessly headed down the path to spec-dom, why not have AOW adopt the 3.0-litre atmospheric/1.5-litre blown formula (and allow 4, 6, or 8 cylinders)? This would allow some development not too far removed from what is on the road; besides, isn't racing supposed to lead the way for development? What some of you guys are talking about is just following what's already being done on the road anyway.

As for tracks, I really think we should chop a few of the cookie-cutter ovals (jeez, IRL runs at Joliet, Kentucky, Kansas City, Nashville, and Homestead), and add half a dozen or so of the CART venues: Long Beach, Surfers Paradise, Toronto, St. Jovite, Road America, and Cleveland. And unless the new cars have more power, Iowa is going to be a boring track (they couldn't pass to the outside, and didn't bother coming more than a lane up from the apron on the straights).

Now, if we could just have the Triple Crown at Indy, Michigan, and Pocono.

CART ceases to exist, there is nothing to unify now.

Truer words have never been spoken.
:whiteflag:s

The main things I would say are that I think the current IRL engines don't rev high enough. New chasses should be in order, but larger engines are just going to make the cars look bulbous and make them heavy (not to mention, you'll have to restrict them ridiculously). If F1 is hopelessly headed down the path to spec-dom, why not have AOW adopt the 3.0-litre atmospheric/1.5-litre blown formula (and allow 4, 6, or 8 cylinders)? This would allow some development not too far removed from what is on the road; besides, isn't racing supposed to lead the way for development? What some of you guys are talking about is just following what's already being done on the road anyway.

As for tracks, I really think we should chop a few of the cookie-cutter ovals (jeez, IRL runs at Joliet, Kentucky, Kansas City, Nashville, and Homestead), and add half a dozen or so of the CART venues: Long Beach, Surfers Paradise, Toronto, St. Jovite, Road America, and Cleveland. And unless the new cars have more power, Iowa is going to be a boring track (they couldn't pass to the outside, and didn't bother coming more than a lane up from the apron on the straights).

Now, if we could just have the Triple Crown at Indy, Michigan, and Pocono.

I think the IRL should get rid of Kentucky and Nashville, I believe the Busch series gets more spectators at both venues. And attendence in Miami has been bad, but if it picks up this year maybe its still a possibility. Kansas City is a very popular race and a good warm up for Indy.

And yes, Indy, Michigan and Pocono would be awesome!

Your thoughts parallel mine, Rush. Also, Kansas is the closest oval to home (Wichita, Kansas), and I've been to three of the IRL events there.

I very much enjoyed the CART/ALMS double-header at Road America this past August. It was a great event, and any series over here that takes its road racing seriously really should include that track on its calendar. I think you can guess what I'm thinking regarding four of the other five venues I mentioned. As for St. Jovite, it's a great circuit, it covers another important portion of Canada, and the track owner and promoters deserve a high-level event for all the upgrades they've made to the track over the past decade.

I can't even remember anymore, but what one-mile ovals is IRL supposed to run this year?

Milwaukee is one mile.

Look guys, I see your point about wanting to have certain tracks on the schedule. Personally, I would love to have VIR, RA and a few others on the schedule myself!

Here is the thing though: This series needs first and foremost to re-establish itself. For right now, the venues that the IRL had on the schedule were the most solid in terms of not being money losers.

Now at some point we can't rule out a return to RA for example, but that was a date that has come and gone in the past and to be honest, was not supported very well (last season being somewhat of an exception).

I would love to have my cake and eat it too, but for this season and possibly next, the venues are what they are. If interest on the part of fans/sponsors takes off more quickly then you will see adjustments made as venues push to have the events at their facility.

In the past, particularly with CC, my sense is that it was CC coming to the venues rather than the venue coming to CC.

I think for now, Mid Ohio and Watkins Glen are going to be just too cool...let's enjoy the venues that are on the schedule for now...

Watkins Glen, yes (though I don't care for the Innerloop and just about any chicane), Mid Ohio just isn't quite in that same echelon.

Uhm, Road America has missed only 2003 and 2005 since 1983. Toronto has been on since 1986, Surfers since 1990, Long Beach since 1984, and Cleveland since 1982. Since Pheonix and Nazareth aren't on tap, and Milwaukee hasn't been advertised as an encore to Indy since before the split (not to mentioned moving around between the series), the only IRL event with the solidity of the five mentioned here is Indy itself. Heck, CART at Mexico City (without including 1980-81) has as much history/standing as half the events on the IRL schedule.

Let's face it, the venues ARE going to contribute significantly to our excitement level over the series, and the five I mentioned besides Mont Tremblant are signature events. They are dates on the calendar that WILL add much-needed depth to the schedule. And they are road/street courses, so you won't have the same sorts of issues as with many of the ovals where the current cars are so even, so aero-restricted, and so underpowered that you almost can't make a decisive move. It's painful how static some of those races can be with the cars running flat-out the whole way around. If the front-runners got two-by-two 30 laps from the finish at Texas, Joliet, etc, and there wasn't a caution or pit stop to foul things up, you watched for a couple of laps, and then knew who would cross the line first at the end. Iowa looked just like Bristol used to; if you got off of the bottom, even on the straight, you were pounced upon and freight-trained; you were utterly helpless on the outside line (because there just was no line out there, and you don't have the horsepower to run there successfully).

Hopefully Toronto will be back in '09. In terms of viable races from either series, Toronto has a recent history of being better than most and I believe the race can be rebuilt. Don't wait until Nascar builds track near Toronto or it will be too late!

As for the engines, it's hard to say what the best option would be. The last thing they need now is to annoy Honda! However, if one wanted diversity, low costs and pairity, Grand Am has proven a pretty convincing model for accomidating different engines/manufacturers.

I think something needs to be done to accomidate Atlantics. It's a good feeder series and part of the Mazda ladder. If one want to bring good talent into the series, a lot of the leg work has already been done. Perhaps embracing Mazda's ladder could entice them to join in at the top.

In terms of the chasis, there's no question that the current ones are ugly and don't really embrace the concept of technology. There is no question that the larger oval wing regulations are uncondusive to real racing where the driver makes a difference. I think something along the lines of the concepts the DP01 attempt to embrace is the way to go.

2 Spec series (albeit de-facto spec like IRL) combined should at minimum have 2 chassis & 2 engine options - 4 different combos.

We focus on the future drivers sometimes too much - If F1 is the only non-spec international championship, where do the next car designers come from?

An idea on engines would be to copy the proposed japenese Formula Nippon model - get into bed with a sportscar series & use the same engines (pragmaticly, grand-am would be the best pick).

GARRA engines have draconian hp limits, any one who is competent can tune his or her street V-8 to exceed them.

GARRA is club racing for money.
Now the IRL is spec. racing, and the fellow who showed me around Indy last summer, works there and he knows Tony George said that is what they call it.

The engines used in GARRA totally divorced from GARRA rules would be a return to something similar to that used by USAC, and CART, until CART became so full of itself it self destructed.
Bob

There's no doubt about it this year that there will be a lot of growing pains this season, and possibly next season too. Right now, open-wheel simply needs to put on good shows wherever they will be and use the media as much as possible to get the brand out there for the public to see.

With all the damage that has been done over the past decade, I am thinking that it'll take at least 5 years for people to get interested in open-wheel again.

There's no doubt about it this year that there will be a lot of growing pains this season, and possibly next season too. Right now, open-wheel simply needs to put on good shows wherever they will be and use the media as much as possible to get the brand out there for the public to see.

With all the damage that has been done over the past decade, I am thinking that it'll take at least 5 years for people to get interested in open-wheel again.


Spot-on, Amar!

I think the Unified open wheel racing is more interesting since right now; a longer time will be necessary to get the new structure and schedule optimized.

Rome was not built in a day...

ditto :)

As a good ol' Londoner looking in from the outside I was lucky enough to attend the CC/ALMS event at Road America last year and also the CC/V8 at Surfers Paradise. I have travelled the world watching Motorsport and was also at Infineon for IndyCar last year. Dont get me wrong I really enjoyed Infineon but the series needs places like RA and Surfers in the not too distant future. Those events were simply huge for me.

Its a case of just hanging in there for 08 and beyond but hopefully these things will come. Of course it is vital first and foremost that the interest is built in America but they also have an opportunity to get the 'worlds' interest and the world loves events like RA and Surfers. I am an addict so I watch IndyCar aswell but many casual fans on this side of the pond 'switch off' with some of the ovals so a better oval/road course balance will hopefully restore fans faith in American open wheel racing across the globe. For example, Surfers is sooooo huge in Australia that they have to keep the faith of the fans there as they wont put up with a non-event for too long?? It would be madness to not capture that massive fan base and let it slip?

I understand that it cannot happen quickly but I hope they dont delay these kind of things for too many years because if they dont strike early then people could lose interest in the merger anyway if they feel they are simply watching the same thing with a few more cars? Just a thought.

As a good ol' Londoner looking in from the outside I was lucky enough to attend the CC/ALMS event at Road America last year and also the CC/V8 at Surfers Paradise. I have travelled the world watching Motorsport and was also at Infineon for IndyCar last year. Dont get me wrong I really enjoyed Infineon but the series needs places like RA and Surfers in the not too distant future. Those events were simply huge for me.

Its a case of just hanging in there for 08 and beyond but hopefully these things will come. Of course it is vital first and foremost that the interest is built in America but they also have an opportunity to get the 'worlds' interest and the world loves events like RA and Surfers. I am an addict so I watch IndyCar aswell but many casual fans on this side of the pond 'switch off' with some of the ovals so a better oval/road course balance will hopefully restore fans faith in American open wheel racing across the globe. For example, Surfers is sooooo huge in Australia that they have to keep the faith of the fans there as they wont put up with a non-event for too long?? It would be madness to not capture that massive fan base and let it slip?

I understand that it cannot happen quickly but I hope they dont delay these kind of things for too many years because if they dont strike early then people could lose interest in the merger anyway if they feel they are simply watching the same thing with a few more cars? Just a thought.Unfortunatly I don't think Tony George cares what you think or has the vision to see what is best for the future of American open wheel racing. It is funny to think that even the good ole boys of NASCAR have more vision than he does. TG really hasn't done anything with the IRL except watch it go downhill, try to bandge it year after year and whine about all his problems being caused by a split audience. I will say it again, if either series had something anyone wanted we wouldn't be having these talks today. 'Unification', if you want to call it that, was about control. The same thing it was about 12 years ago with the split. Don't expect anything other than the same old Tony George show with a few more cars on the grid for the next couple years before they pack the entire thing into a crate and bury it. People may forgive 08 but 09 will make or break the series and if TG isn't up for coming out of the box and setting things straight then nobody but the few IRL fans he has today will be back for 2010.

Unfortunatly I don't think Tony George cares what you think or has the vision to see what is best for the future of American open wheel racing. It is funny to think that even the good ole boys of NASCAR have more vision than he does. TG really hasn't done anything with the IRL except watch it go downhill, try to bandge it year after year and whine about all his problems being caused by a split audience. I will say it again, if either series had something anyone wanted we wouldn't be having these talks today. 'Unification', if you want to call it that, was about control. The same thing it was about 12 years ago with the split. Don't expect anything other than the same old Tony George show with a few more cars on the grid for the next couple years before they pack the entire thing into a crate and bury it. People may forgive 08 but 09 will make or break the series and if TG isn't up for coming out of the box and setting things straight then nobody but the few IRL fans he has today will be back for 2010.

Excellent post.

As a good ol' Londoner looking in from the outside I was lucky enough to attend the CC/ALMS event at Road America last year and also the CC/V8 at Surfers Paradise. I have travelled the world watching Motorsport and was also at Infineon for IndyCar last year. Dont get me wrong I really enjoyed Infineon but the series needs places like RA and Surfers in the not too distant future. Those events were simply huge for me.

Its a case of just hanging in there for 08 and beyond but hopefully these things will come. Of course it is vital first and foremost that the interest is built in America but they also have an opportunity to get the 'worlds' interest and the world loves events like RA and Surfers. I am an addict so I watch IndyCar aswell but many casual fans on this side of the pond 'switch off' with some of the ovals so a better oval/road course balance will hopefully restore fans faith in American open wheel racing across the globe. For example, Surfers is sooooo huge in Australia that they have to keep the faith of the fans there as they wont put up with a non-event for too long?? It would be madness to not capture that massive fan base and let it slip?

I understand that it cannot happen quickly but I hope they dont delay these kind of things for too many years because if they dont strike early then people could lose interest in the merger anyway if they feel they are simply watching the same thing with a few more cars? Just a thought.

I have to agree with you. After going to the Surfers Race (twice), Indycar would have to be insane to let an international event like that go away.
I have also travelled far and wide to watch motorsport and without a doubt the Surfers race the biggest party/racing event I have ever been to.

Unfortunatly I don't think Tony George cares what you think or has the vision to see what is best for the future of American open wheel racing. It is funny to think that even the good ole boys of NASCAR have more vision than he does. TG really hasn't done anything with the IRL except watch it go downhill, try to bandge it year after year and whine about all his problems being caused by a split audience. I will say it again, if either series had something anyone wanted we wouldn't be having these talks today. 'Unification', if you want to call it that, was about control. The same thing it was about 12 years ago with the split. Don't expect anything other than the same old Tony George show with a few more cars on the grid for the next couple years before they pack the entire thing into a crate and bury it. People may forgive 08 but 09 will make or break the series and if TG isn't up for coming out of the box and setting things straight then nobody but the few IRL fans he has today will be back for 2010.

Someone pass me a gun! I feel i can't go on!

Because CART did so well without TG didn't they, that's a very blinkered view to take but good to see 'they've' sent over the cavalry!

As a good ol' Londoner looking in from the outside I was lucky enough to attend the CC/ALMS event at Road America last year and also the CC/V8 at Surfers Paradise. I have travelled the world watching Motorsport and was also at Infineon for IndyCar last year. Dont get me wrong I really enjoyed Infineon but the series needs places like RA and Surfers in the not too distant future. Those events were simply huge for me.

Its a case of just hanging in there for 08 and beyond but hopefully these things will come. Of course it is vital first and foremost that the interest is built in America but they also have an opportunity to get the 'worlds' interest and the world loves events like RA and Surfers. I am an addict so I watch IndyCar aswell but many casual fans on this side of the pond 'switch off' with some of the ovals so a better oval/road course balance will hopefully restore fans faith in American open wheel racing across the globe. For example, Surfers is sooooo huge in Australia that they have to keep the faith of the fans there as they wont put up with a non-event for too long?? It would be madness to not capture that massive fan base and let it slip?

I understand that it cannot happen quickly but I hope they dont delay these kind of things for too many years because if they dont strike early then people could lose interest in the merger anyway if they feel they are simply watching the same thing with a few more cars? Just a thought.

Good evening to the south of England!

Yeah, it's sometimes easier for us to comment on this because we are on the outside looking in and it means we can have a less blinkered and more balanced view

08 will be an interesting season but it won't be painless but i'm sure we can live with that, no doubt 'them all' will find something to moan about, the Millerites

Being positive is the key, by 09 i'm sure most of us would like to see a 50/50 oval/road course split but it might not happen. For 09 i see maybe a 60/40 in favour of oval split but that would put us on the right track

Even if open wheel racing suddenly got 200 million new fans and defeated NASCAR overnight some people would still moan! I guess that's just their nature!

Nice post from you though, hope you didn't get blasted too bad by today's gale force winds!

.

.

:rotate:

i guess you had some wind problems today?

We'll pretend that didn't happen. :o

Someone pass me a gun! I feel i can't go on!

Because CART did so well without TG didn't they, that's a very blinkered view to take but good to see 'they've' sent over the cavalry!

Go back and read the history.

At the moment of the announcement of the formation of the irl in 1994, Indycar was a powerful racing organization feared by Nascar and F1. It's TV deal was actually better than Nascar's at the time. Attendance, tv ratings, sponsor, manufacturer support, tire support, chassis diversity was all good. Demographics at the time showed Indycar had about half the fans as Nascar, but that Indycar fans had a household income of twice that of Nascar fans.

In November 1991 tony george walked into a CART meeting and demanded a stake and control in Indycar, something he neither had title to or experience in running a racing series.

The split is what tore the sport apart. You can go back and find different decisions CART made and find poor decisions here and there, but nothing like what the split caused.

Would Nascar be strong ten years from now if the sport split in half?

Would F1 be strong ten years from now if the sport split in half?

The same issue that existed in 1994 with tony still exists today. People want to plug their ears and scream lalalalalala. Be in denial if you want, but unless radical changes are made now and they get a dynamic group of people in to run the business, Indycar is toast.

Go back and read the history.

At the moment of the announcement of the formation of the irl in 1994, Indycar was a powerful racing organization feared by Nascar and F1. It's TV deal was actually better than Nascar's at the time. Attendance, tv ratings, sponsor, manufacturer support, tire support, chassis diversity was all good. Demographics at the time showed Indycar had about half the fans as Nascar, but that Indycar fans had a household income of twice that of Nascar fans.

In November 1991 tony george walked into a CART meeting and demanded a stake and control in Indycar, something he neither had title to or experience in running a racing series.

The split is what tore the sport apart. You can go back and find different decisions CART made and find poor decisions here and there, but nothing like what the split caused.

Would Nascar be strong ten years from now if the sport split in half?

Would F1 be strong ten years from now if the sport split in half?

The same issue that existed in 1994 with tony still exists today. People want to plug their ears and scream lalalalalala. Be in denial if you want, but unless radical changes are made now and they get a dynamic group of people in to run the business, Indycar is toast.

Listen mate, get over it, move on, stop living in the past!

what's done is done! Lets look to the future

The last thing you need to do is too turn into a bitter old man like Robin Miller......

I think MS is right to some extent. Tony Cotman MUST be free to do his job and reshape the series to the extent that that is required. IF TG doesn't allow Cotman to do that, then we WILL have problems. I have no problem with TG's ability to manage Indy itself, but I think the IRL's record speaks for itself as far as his ability to grow an entire series.

Listen mate, get over it, move on, stop living in the past!

what's done is done! Lets look to the future

The last thing you need to do is too turn into a bitter old man like Robin Miller......

Hey I'm looking to the future. I accept what is done is done. Doesn't mean I'm going to stop expressing my opinion. I believe at some point down the road if you put the right people in charge and spread positive goodwill in the community that Indycar racing CAN live again.

But it's important to know how and why we got to where we are today and not doom ourselves to repeating mistakes. As I've said before doing the same thing and expecting a different result is stupid.

Go back and read the history.

At the moment of the announcement of the formation of the irl in 1994, Indycar was a powerful racing organization feared by Nascar and F1. It's TV deal was actually better than Nascar's at the time. Attendance, tv ratings, sponsor, manufacturer support, tire support, chassis diversity was all good. Demographics at the time showed Indycar had about half the fans as Nascar, but that Indycar fans had a household income of twice that of Nascar fans.The year CART was formed Indy type car racing was strong and USAC stock cars were challenging NASCAR (Comp. Press' opinion not mine) but that is done and gone, CART is gone, the IRL as formed is gone, LIFE MOVES ON.

In November 1991 tony george walked into a CART meeting and demanded a stake and control in Indycar, something he neither had title to or experience in running a racing series.Without INDIANAPOLIS there was NO CART.
Indy survives WITHOUT CART. (which is why they sued in court not to be excluded)

Would Nascar be strong ten years from now if the sport split in half? Would NASCAR be strong if the USAC BoD had not been killed?

You are trying to write some sort of La-la land history based on half-truths and just plain BS.
Life moves on, que sera sera.
Bob

NASCAR was never run by a "BOD." Big Bill France (sr) was all the Board of Directors NASCAR ever needed.

What we don't need here are rock stars to run things, but people who can think, who care about the sport and have the wherewithal to make things happen.

Yeah, TG doesn't come across as a media "star" but too many that have turned out to be a flash-in-the-pan.

I am with Bob on this one. Let's move on and forward, shall we?

As I've said before doing the same thing and expecting a different result is stupid.

Actually MS, thats Chaos theory ;)

Good words Bob and John

although i see where MS is coming from

let's get on with things

press conference today, gonna be hard pushed to get home from work in time to see though

Ms the real point is, you and some others here have been declaring for months you wanted an Unified OWR in the States, but that wasn't the thruth: you just wanted TG out of that.

Once that we have one sole OWR series we all should be happy about it (my sole sympathy goes, obviously, to the CC staff), but no, not only do you complain, but also have decided this has to fail because you don't like it.

Lets' not forget that this could have happened 3 yrs ago; without the Amigos' attempt (that many Cart fans cheered as heroical but, at the end of the day proved nothing but a waste of time, and money of course), there could already be a stronger OWr in America.

If you don't like TG and his behaviour I can only remind you a series owner is not meant to be a new Mother Teresa, his job being make the series work. Now he has the chance to make OWR get big again, on the base of the results he gets, he'll be judged. apriori this new reality only deserves to be encouraged IMO

Ms the real point is, you and some others here have been declaring for months you wanted an Unified OWR in the States, but that wasn't the thruth: you just wanted TG out of that.

Once that we have one sole OWR series we all should be happy about it (my sole sympathy goes, obviously, to the CC staff), but no, not only do you complain, but also have decided this has to fail because you don't like it.

Lets' not forget that this could have happened 3 yrs ago; without the Amigos' attempt (that many Cart fans cheered as heroical but, at the end of the day proved nothing but a waste of time, and money of course), there could already be a stronger OWr in America.

If you don't like TG and his behaviour I can only remind you a series owner is not meant to be a new Mother Teresa, his job being make the series work. Now he has the chance to make OWR get big again, on the base of the results he gets, he'll be judged. apriori this new reality only deserves to be encouraged IMO

excellent post

Ms the real point is, you and some others here have been declaring for months you wanted an Unified OWR in the States, but that wasn't the thruth: you just wanted TG out of that.

Once that we have one sole OWR series we all should be happy about it (my sole sympathy goes, obviously, to the CC staff), but no, not only do you complain, but also have decided this has to fail because you don't like it.

Lets' not forget that this could have happened 3 yrs ago; without the Amigos' attempt (that many Cart fans cheered as heroical but, at the end of the day proved nothing but a waste of time, and money of course), there could already be a stronger OWr in America.

If you don't like TG and his behaviour I can only remind you a series owner is not meant to be a new Mother Teresa, his job being make the series work. Now he has the chance to make OWR get big again, on the base of the results he gets, he'll be judged. apriori this new reality only deserves to be encouraged IMO

Yes I believe mr. george should stick to running the speedway. IMO he hasn't ever impressed me with his skills running a race series. I think I've made it clear continuing under his leadership is a road to nowhere. The more decisions he puts in the hands of people like Tony Cotman, the better.

I don't think 2004-2008 was a waste of time. Maybe for you, but I enjoyed it and the races. The amigos failed to make an investment from the beginning in 2004 for good tv, star drivers and aggressive marketing. They failed to appoint a strong CEO with the power to get things done. They failed in a lot of areas. All things that can be learned from.

You've misinterpreted my position. I have always been for one series. Just not under the current ownership. Yes we should all be happy about it. I just happen to be smart enough to see continuing down the same road the irl is on is fatal to the sport. Did you know only 13-14 irl cars were going to make the season opener at Homestead? Hardly the model of success. Without this sudden injection of champcar teams, personnel, drivers, etc. 2008 would have been very bleak for the irl.

Since this sell out by champcar ownership, I have yet to declare "this has to fail". Please point out where I said that. There again, I'm wise enough to know goodwill, opportunities and time are running out for open wheel racing and if it does fail, then that is end of open wheel racing for the time being. NO I am not yet confident the current leadership can make the right decisions to move forward. But I do not wish for failure and destruction of the sport.

In response to your last paragraph, no I do not respect mr. george for what he did and the trouble he caused. If he is ever contrite and says "hey I'm sorry, I made mistakes, I regret the unpleasantness that happened", then on that day I will reconsider my position. As long as he remains an unrepentant prick, I and others wont be canonizing him as a saint as some wish to do. The irony in everything is he now has 100% control, but also 100% of the responsibility and that I think IS AWESOME!:rofl:

Ultimately I want it to succeed because it opens up more opportunities for my career!

13-14 cars to make the first race?

What an total load of rubbish, complete lie

Wasn;t there 15 on the open test list? And DRR still to come? Plus some others……

Lol! 13 to 14, just a blatent lie, very very sad I’m afraid

13-14 cars to make the first race?

What an total load of rubbish, complete lie

Wasn;t there 15 on the open test list? And DRR still to come? Plus some others……

Lol! 13 to 14, just a blatent lie, very very sad I’m afraid

Yup that's what was going down. It was very, very sad. Not a lie, only the commercial reality of finding sponsorship with the status quo of a few weeks ago. I have no doubt though tony would have dug deep to add some more cars, but to what end? Even more welfare?

I work with Champcar/CART/Indycar drivers and drivers from lower formulas as well. I would say I have a good grasp of what is actually going rather than sitting thousands of miles away behind a computer and watching some races on tv.

Don't fall off that high horse will you...

There was 15 full time cars confirmed last month mate!

Plus of course Alex Lloyd, Tomas Scheckter, Sarah Fisher are all the run at least part time and DRR could run 2 full time

so are you saying that some of those CONFIRMED cars were going to dissapear in the Bermuda Triangle over the next few weeks?

You are getting increasingly deserate with your comments MS

i can see your point of view on some things but this is just silly mate, give it up, it's over

Don't fall off that high horse will you...

There was 15 full time cars confirmed last month mate!

Plus of course Alex Lloyd, Tomas Scheckter, Sarah Fisher are all the run at least part time and DRR could run 2 full time

so are you saying that some of those CONFIRMED cars were going to dissapear in the Bermuda Triangle over the next few weeks?

You are getting increasingly deserate with your comments MS

i can see your point of view on some things but this is just silly mate, give it up, it's over

Whatever dude, believe what you want.:rofl: Jeez.

I don't believe you for starters! I know the facts mate, there was 15 cars confirmed ages ago PLUS the additons, if you can't get your head around that them i'm sorry

i don't believe you work inside motorsport either but that's my opinion

look at everyone elses comments to you mate, you need to get over it, surely you have a life outside of the internet?

http://www.champcarfanatics.com/forums/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

I don't believe you for starters! I know the facts mate, there was 15 cars confirmed ages ago PLUS the additons, if you can't get your head around that them i'm sorry

i don't believe you work inside motorsport either but that's my opinion

look at everyone elses comments to you mate, you need to get over it, surely you have a life outside of the internet?

Believe what you want. I'm here, you're not. Big difference.

I do in fact work inside motorsport and will be on track all next week. What are you doing next week?

Doing what i'm paid to do! Being an Electrician

i don't believe a word you say mate and I KNOW that goes for others here

but as this is a public forum, lets discuss the unified series.....

we should all be friends now....

Doing what i'm paid to do! Being an Electrician

i don't believe a word you say mate and I KNOW that goes for others here

but as this is a public forum, lets discuss the unified series.....

we should all be friends now....

Like I said believe what you want. I certainly don't want to hold you back.:rofl:

MS, you're going to have to cite something on this one if you want to be taken seriously on the points you're trying to make.

But enough of that, that's not why we're supposed to be in this thread. Take a few steps back and let the comupters cool down a bit, as well as your fingers.

MS, you're going to have to cite something on this one if you want to be taken seriously on the points you're trying to make.

But enough of that, that's not why we're supposed to be in this thread. Take a few steps back and let the comupters cool down a bit, as well as your fingers.

i've taken a step back on that. it's not worth it! and i agree with your first point

moving on......................

in case anyone doesn't know, live timing is going to be available of the Homestead test session

You guys are both beating a dead horse, 15 confirmed or 17 confirmed it doesn't matter. 20 cars per race for a mostly oval series to most race fans eyes and especially to NassCar fans looks really freaking bad. CCWS and the IRL has sucked in my opinion. IRL from the start, and CCWS after the 3 major teams left for the IRL.

I honestly don't give a **** what was going to happen if the two series didn't merge. All I care about is that things are finally going in the right direction after Tony George destroyed my favorite racing series. So maybe in 2 years ill be able to watch it again and enjoy it.

MS, you're going to have to cite something on this one if you want to be taken seriously on the points you're trying to make.

But enough of that, that's not why we're supposed to be in this thread. Take a few steps back and let the comupters cool down a bit, as well as your fingers.

Hey, people can believe what they want. That's the info I had from different people I talked to and I don't have reason to doubt it.

As Xpunk75 says, we don't care anymore how many cars there would have been on each series.

Xpunk75 hit the nail on the head, however i did still watch CC the last couple of years. The way it was going, the confirmed car count was unacceptable for both series but now we don't have to worry about that because we should have atleast 24 hopefully.

I think MS makes a few interesting points however i think it all got a bit personal towards the end there. If MS does work in the industry maybe that may explain his personal stance on the matter. All i'm hoping for is TG, KK, Cotman and Co. sit down for a long chat and do what's best for the series

I also wish that they are discussing what is best for the series, but really it's all about what's best for their pocketbooks.

Geez I go on a bit of a holiday and the whole US open wheel series caves in on itself and we have a unified series (sort of) for 2008 ???

Very interesting , excuse me I have a bit of reading to catch up on LOL

Tony George really now has to guide the series to be closer to his original vision. That means mostly US drivers with a realistic opportunity for sprint and dirt-track racers to come in, low-cost cars, and mostly US races (perhaps mostly ovals as well). Right now we've got something similar but inferior to what we had before Tony decided to split - none of his original vision has succeeded, and the whole concept of open-wheel racing is weaker than before. The car count is the main symptom of this - why didn't George make an offer for ChampCar, plus $20m (perhaps also from his own money) to the teams, when the IRL had a bigger field and was attracting ChampCar teams? It remains to be seen how many of the smaller teams will survive into 2009.

The survivor of small teams is a constant issue in every series in the world (just look at what's happening in F1 with SA), therefore it can be an obstacle to the reunification.

About an offer for CC, actuallt TG had done it, at the time of the Cart-brupt auction, but his 13M offer was rejected in favour of the 3m offer coming from the Amigos...

Believe what you want. I'm here, you're not. Big difference.

I do in fact work inside motorsport and will be on track all next week. What are you doing next week?

Quotes from a very reliable connaisseur, which lives "here"

Mountainstar 4 feb 2008: (CCWS off-season thread, about CC relaible rumours)


...
Graham says dad is working something big with ALMS and a major new manufacture to the series (German).

Haas' tough talk ended when he heard IRL's plan to have bumper cars in 2010 or 2011.

Conquest's operation looks amazing.... 3 times bigger than what they were last year. Team was sporting new sponsor on sidepods, both cars, today.

Paul Tracy got a kick out of Montagny's entourage. Montagny is wicked fast.

PKV has new sponsor in the works for possibly both cars. Team looks set with 2 cars, and likely won't move to 3.

More DP01's were just delivered.

New one car team, with familiar old school name / owner, might happen by Long Beach.

Forsythe just hired more people (18 to be exact).

Pretty cool F1 driver seriously thinking about coming to ChampCar.

Minardi has new sponsor with Viso.

No one likes TV highlights programming. Won't happen again in 2009.

And saving the best for last....


That "saving the best for last" is the joke of the century :rofl:

mountainstar 8 feb 2008: (merger imminent? thread, responding to Knowlesy which hinted Walker and Conquest switching to IRL)

Walker and Conquest aren't going anywhere.

I won't be so cruel to continue, I'll just add this quote of mine: 8 feb 2008 same thread

..
Ehy Mods!

Prepare and be ready to merge the CC and IRL fora! :woot:

Quotes from a very reliable connaisseur, which lives "here"

Mountainstar 4 feb 2008: (CCWS off-season thread, about CC relaible rumours)



That "saving the best for last" is the joke of the century :rofl:

mountainstar 8 feb 2008: (merger imminent? thread, responding to Knowlesy which hinted Walker and Conquest switching to IRL)



I won't be so cruel to continue, I'll just add this quote of mine: 8 feb 2008 same thread

All I had posted was a direct word for word copy of information from someone who had been at the sebring test for information purposes. At that time Champcar was a go. Other than that what is your point? I'm obviously not going to post my personal information or employers in this thread, nor should be under obligation to do so.

Tony George really now has to guide the series to be closer to his original vision. That means mostly US drivers with a realistic opportunity for sprint and dirt-track racers to come in, low-cost cars, and mostly US races (perhaps mostly ovals as well). Right now we've got something similar but inferior to what we had before Tony decided to split - none of his original vision has succeeded, and the whole concept of open-wheel racing is weaker than before. The car count is the main symptom of this - why didn't George make an offer for ChampCar, plus $20m (perhaps also from his own money) to the teams, when the IRL had a bigger field and was attracting ChampCar teams? It remains to be seen how many of the smaller teams will survive into 2009.

I don't think that is on the cards, at the moment anyways it seems indycar will remain as a formula car series. I noticed in the press conference tony george made mention they had tapped out the ovals market and more road and street courses were in the future.

Most of those guys running sprints think Nascar now. That's were all the opportunity is now anyways and will be for some time.

Maybe we need to unify the Unified American Open Wheel Forum, this has got ugly since I last looked :coolit:

Its a good thing that emotions are running high on this one as it shows that everyone cares but it is going to take us time to get where we want it to be.

In fairness there is no point going over old ground in terms of what we thought was going to happen. I have covered both series from time to time as a journalist (of sorts) and not that many people knew this was all going to happen over the last month.

Anyway I am glad to see everyone has calmed down a bit ;)

Quotes from a very reliable connaisseur, which lives "here"

Mountainstar 4 feb 2008: (CCWS off-season thread, about CC relaible rumours)



That "saving the best for last" is the joke of the century :rofl:

mountainstar 8 feb 2008: (merger imminent? thread, responding to Knowlesy which hinted Walker and Conquest switching to IRL)



I won't be so cruel to continue, I'll just add this quote of mine: 8 feb 2008 same thread

i think all that just confirms what I aready thought! :rofl: He needs to give it up!

but lets be bigger men Climb!

it's annoying that there is an extra day in february this year because it's one more extra day until the start of the season

but the countdown will be soon be on

I still cannot beleive this is happening. I am really looking foward to the start of the season, unfortunately... TV coverage... I assume it will be on Sky SPorts this year?

Yes, it should be.

Although I note the merger has not swept away the tedious bickering.

Although I note the merger has not swept away the tedious bickering.

Indeed. :rolleyes:

With the merger I may just become interested in the sport again.

I still cannot beleive this is happening. I am really looking foward to the start of the season, unfortunately... TV coverage... I assume it will be on Sky SPorts this year?

yeah, it was confirmed during the last NASCAR race on Sky Sports they advertised the first Indycar race and it will be live

there will be a Keith Huewen overdose this season

i just hope they get someone different from that Dr Paul Cherry or whatever he's called, the guy who ran Sigma

Tony George really now has to guide the series to be closer to his original vision. That means mostly US drivers with a realistic opportunity for sprint and dirt-track racers to come in, low-cost cars, and mostly US races (perhaps mostly ovals as well). Right now we've got something similar but inferior to what we had before Tony decided to split - none of his original vision has succeeded, and the whole concept of open-wheel racing is weaker than before. The car count is the main symptom of this - why didn't George make an offer for ChampCar, plus $20m (perhaps also from his own money) to the teams, when the IRL had a bigger field and was attracting ChampCar teams? It remains to be seen how many of the smaller teams will survive into 2009.

You mention guiding the series closer to his original vision yet you say that none of his original vision has succeeded.....Does that mean you just want him to drive OWR into the ground:)

It doesn't matter what kind of OW series it is, if it is successful that will attract american racers back to it. At the moment young drivers know where the money is so that's where they go.

An Open Wheel Series with Just Ovals cannot survive in America, in Europe, on Mars, or Uranis. So you can take the peace of paper with that idea and toss it in the trash cause its already failed for 12 years.

What was successful in America was an even split of road/street courses and Ovals. That way all the fanatics of each track type get a fair cut of the races for each season and don't ***** so much, and the rest of us normal fans who just like open wheel and want see what we use to see from 1979 to 1995 can watch a series thats worth watching and is exciting.

The all oval or all street and road course ideas are boring and stupid. What made Indy Car racing exciting and different was that it was the most diverse form of racing on the planet in terms of what types of tracks and drivers raced on. Thats what made it such a great proving ground for driver talent and why F1 teams had their eyes set on who ever was dominating the PPG Cart Indy Car series. It was also the reason why so many great drivers from F1 and other forms of racing wanted to come to Indy Car and show just how great they were behind the wheel.


Anyway I'm getting pretty tired of reading some of the crap people from both sides are saying. The split doesn't exist anymore so that means whatever bad blood you have with each other needs to stop, and we need to work together as fans to let the people charge understand what we want to see in a merged series.

I agree. Have patience, people. Not one lap has been run yet. We can't make any judgements yet. Besides, we need to take 2008 with a grain of salt, live with the growing pains, and remember that the most important thing is that open wheel is not split anymore.

I liked Champ Car just as much as anyone. Was I ****ed that it has folded under the IRL? Sure. But you know what? In the end the best thing for the sport was to merge, one way or the other. Simple.

Can people take their CC/KK vs IRL/TG endless "debates" to the CC and/or IRL fora?

Go for your life in those, but can we please keep this forum for unification free of such old, tired, endlessly repetitive cycles of pointlessness?

So now that we have closed the other threads what about all this history (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=99121&highlight=will+danica+win)

Can we bring this one with us. Please



BTW mods new posts here dont come up on the home page under "Recent Topics Being Discussed", i'm sure it's just a linking problem

All I had posted was a direct word for word copy of information from someone who had been at the sebring test for information purposes. At that time Champcar was a go. Other than that what is your point? I'm obviously not going to post my personal information or employers in this thread, nor should be under obligation to do so.


My point is: you have claimed you are a man in the motorsport:


Believe what you want. I'm here, you're not. Big difference.

I do in fact work inside motorsport and will be on track all next week. What are you doing next week?

Then you claim your hints, numbers and predictions are more reliable than ours, and we cannot dare ask you for a source or whatever.

I just demonstrated that what you affirm with the authority of a :unworthy: "Man in the motorsport", proves totally (and funnily) wrong more often than not.
Not more than 3 weeks ago you, as a :unworthy: "man in the motorspost" denied that IRL was in better shape than CC, that some CC had no intentions to switch to IRL, and the other amenities I quoted in my previous post:

well, what happened just a few days later? The exact contrary of what you predicted, therefore here is my point:

please leave your superiority complex elsewhere, you may work "in the motorsport" but that doesn't make your points automatically more reliable, I demonstrated it; on the contrary your personal involvement seems to make you heavily biased: non problem about it, you are free like us to "believe what you want", even "what you want" seemingly tends to bring you out of reality. ;)

can someone please shut climb,stradlin and moutainstar up its getting so boring my dads bigger than your dad blah blah

I just hope that I will still be able to see some of the action this year, if they don't show any highlights on Eurosport or MotorsTV then thats pretty much killed off my interest in the series.

You can watch the races live on IndyCar.com, but are limited to only on-board cameras. You can change to drifferent drivers in real time though. I watched a race or two this way last year and it was quite fun :). I ran on board with Dario in the final race last year, those final 15 laps or so were pretty damn intense.

Oh, you also get the full TV stream for qualifying and for Pro Series races.

You can watch the races live on IndyCar.com, but are limited to only on-board cameras. You can change to drifferent drivers in real time though. I watched a race or two this way last year and it was quite fun :). I ran on board with Dario in the final race last year, those final 15 laps or so were pretty damn intense.

Oh, you also get the full TV stream for qualifying and for Pro Series races.

I normally have live video from indycar.com, live timing, live radio (link from indycar.com) as this tends to be better than the live audio off the indycar feed and our very own ten tenths chat up all at once.

BTW Hazard normally give away free icecreams in the chat room. There are conditions to that though and you can normally find out who he has been dating in the boring bits of the racing

can someone please shut climb,stradlin and moutainstar up its getting so boring my dads bigger than your dad blah blah

who said anything about anyone's dad?

if you openly lie and troll forums what do you expect to happen?

he then had a go at my profession! i've done nothing wrong apart from respond to baiting

and please read the posts mate, i said lets move on.........

yet you just dragged it back up

can we please now just move, can you manage that.............

:)

You can watch the races live on IndyCar.com, but are limited to only on-board cameras. You can change to drifferent drivers in real time though. I watched a race or two this way last year and it was quite fun :). I ran on board with Dario in the final race last year, those final 15 laps or so were pretty damn intense.

Oh, you also get the full TV stream for qualifying and for Pro Series races.

they showed the Michigan race straight from ESPN2 live and you got to see what everyone saw on the tv

but usually all you get is a onboard camera

but there is some new sort of package coming from Indycar this season similar to trackpass of NASCAR so that might be worth checking out :)

I just hope that I will still be able to see some of the action this year, if they don't show any highlights on Eurosport or MotorsTV then thats pretty much killed off my interest in the series.

it will be live all season on Sky Sports

Just great, a channel which I haven't subscribed to. Oh well so much for getting Indycars back on track here, I doubt Rockingham Speedway will ever be visited by them again anyhow...

Just great, a channel which I haven't subscribed to. Oh well so much for getting Indycars back on track here, I doubt Rockingham Speedway will ever be visited by them again anyhow...

Sky Sports is the best place for Indycar to be, just like it's the best place for NASCAR to be as well

It's the country's premier sports network

i believe you are suggesting that Indycar should be on terrestrial tv but no matter how big the series gets, that just ain't gonna happen, not in a million years

I much prefer Indycar to be on sky rather then be fobbed off like Champ Car onto tin pot channels like EuroSport and MotorsTV

I much prefer the other way round as I've always watched Indycars on Eurosport since the mid 90s. I just can't subscribe to Sky Sports or else I will be in front of the telly 24/7 otherwise.

i see your problem there!

happens to me sometimes

Save that extra £20 for something more productive to do!! And to be frank I'm not going to miss the coverage that much as its gone downhill since 2003. Looks like ALMS will be the series to follow from the states but I sure hope that indycars can survive as well.

An Open Wheel Series with Just Ovals cannot survive in America, in Europe, on Mars, or Uranis. So you can take the peace of paper with that idea and toss it in the trash cause its already failed for 12 years.

What was successful in America was an even split of road/street courses and Ovals. That way all the fanatics of each track type get a fair cut of the races for each season and don't ***** so much, and the rest of us normal fans who just like open wheel and want see what we use to see from 1979 to 1995 can watch a series thats worth watching and is exciting.

The all oval or all street and road course ideas are boring and stupid. What made Indy Car racing exciting and different was that it was the most diverse form of racing on the planet in terms of what types of tracks and drivers raced on. Thats what made it such a great proving ground for driver talent and why F1 teams had their eyes set on who ever was dominating the PPG Cart Indy Car series. It was also the reason why so many great drivers from F1 and other forms of racing wanted to come to Indy Car and show just how great they were behind the wheel.


Anyway I'm getting pretty tired of reading some of the crap people from both sides are saying. The split doesn't exist anymore so that means whatever bad blood you have with each other needs to stop, and we need to work together as fans to let the people charge understand what we want to see in a merged series.

I agree completely. We need a diversity of tracks like the old days. The business model was excellent, CART made tons of money (before the split) and its success was one of the reasons there was such a bitter fight for control of the sport - but that is in the past.

I think such a format really calls for an accomplished driver to win the series, it sets us apart from other racing series.

Also the IRL needs international exposure to attract additional sponsors - the IRL can't race exclusively in North America, there is too much competition with NASCAR. Japan and Australia of course are excellent and China would be great in the future (something for KK to work on perhaps). I would also like to see one or two races in Europe.

Tony George really now has to guide the series to be closer to his original vision. That means mostly US drivers with a realistic opportunity for sprint and dirt-track racers to come in, low-cost cars, and mostly US races (perhaps mostly ovals as well). Right now we've got something similar but inferior to what we had before Tony decided to split - none of his original vision has succeeded, and the whole concept of open-wheel racing is weaker than before. The car count is the main symptom of this - why didn't George make an offer for ChampCar, plus $20m (perhaps also from his own money) to the teams, when the IRL had a bigger field and was attracting ChampCar teams? It remains to be seen how many of the smaller teams will survive into 2009.

The IRL needs to attract those considered to be the best drivers in the world, not the best out of the US. US dirt track racers can all make tons more money in NASCAR.

If you bought into TG's vision of his series that is very naive, it was always about power and money - on both sides.

Its all about business even if you don't like it. Look, if you are a car owner going to a major corporation like Best Buy here in minnesota and you can tell them the series you compete in draws crowds of 100,000 in Australia or maybe 100,000 some day in China it sets you apart. Many major corproations go after such markets and a presence can help the series obtain more sponsors.

Either way, the days of Billy Boat and Mark Dismore are over.

I agree completely. We need a diversity of tracks like the old days. The business model was excellent, CART made tons of money (before the split) and its success was one of the reasons there was such a bitter fight for control of the sport - but that is in the past.

I think such a format really calls for an accomplished driver to win the series, it sets us apart from other racing series.

Also the IRL needs international exposure to attract additional sponsors - the IRL can't race exclusively in North America, there is too much competition with NASCAR. Japan and Australia of course are excellent and China would be great in the future (something for KK to work on perhaps). I would also like to see one or two races in Europe.

It's hard to say 2-3 years down the road exactly what the irl is going to look like and exactly what demographic will be watching. But I'm confident there are other untapped sponsors in the American marketplace where nascar might not be the best fit for them.

Well, I don't think anyone is in the Northwest at the moment; so that would be an area to look into building back into.

Having a third event on the Far East swing (with Motegi and Surfers) wouldn't be a bad idea, if there's a suitable market/venue; exactly when is Macau anyway?

Macau is mostly a motorcycle race, isn't it?

They have both F3 and WTCC at Macau. The F3 race is probably the biggest one.

What attracted me to indycars was the diversity of the tracks where some shone on ovals and others shone on road/street courses. I especially loved seeing cars at superspeedways such as Michigan doing 220mph side by side with at least 4 lead changes in a lap(and all without such gimmicks such as push to pass button).

One make series will never get the limelight so I would like to see different chassis and engines used just like in the good old days. Imagine Panoz against Lola and Dallara - that would make an interesting series.

Mixed chassis, mixed engines, and mixed tracks.

That would certainly ultimately be what I would prefer, and, I think, a lot of other people feel the same way.

However, such things are far better coming to in a planned, logical manner, as opposed to being so rushed that they cripple any chnace at success there ever may have been.

Donnybrooke, outside Brainerd MN, has a new owner who LIKES racing; its five thousand foot straight follwed by a eighteen degree banked corner, is just the type of road course Indy cars need BADLY.
Bob

Donnybrooke, outside Brainerd MN, has a new owner who LIKES racing; its five thousand foot straight follwed by a eighteen degree banked corner, is just the type of road course Indy cars need BADLY.
Bob

I have a friend that does instruction work there from time to time and apparently this new owner is in fact sinking a lot of money into the track. I've not seen exactly what has been updated nor inquired about it, but certainly would like to know more. I'll ask my friend what he thinks about running irl cars there.

The real question would be, how fast would the Indycars be going on approach to Turn 3 (after they've been flat or nearly flat for a mile and a half). The start/finish straight itself is 4700ft. The straight between Turns 1 and 2 is 1350ft, and the straight from Turns 2 to 3 is 1300ft. I don't know how much length the corners add to that, but that must give an overall length of that run that is spmewhere over 8000ft (and Turn 1 is noticeably banked).

its all so sickening.
tony wins using his brute force.
he gets long beach for nothing.
that 30 years of something for nothing.
i wonder what hes going to do to screw it up. i know he'll try.
tony is bush

its all so sickening.
tony wins using his brute force.
he gets long beach for nothing.
that 30 years of something for nothing.
i wonder what hes going to do to screw it up. i know he'll try.
tony is bush

Now now, I feel the same way and I am sure that deep down most of us here feel the same as well. But we've got t move on. Let's have patience and see how this season goes.

Restraint, my friend. Restraint :)

its all so sickening.
tony wins using his brute force.
he gets long beach for nothing.
that 30 years of something for nothing.
i wonder what hes going to do to screw it up. i know he'll try.
tony is bush

This is impressive, KK was smiling at the press conference, everyone seems happy so who really cares?

I sometimes wonder what people really want from all of this?

Good grief, we have one series which is what we all wanted. Now, it would have been great had CART been run properly back in the day and ground IRL into the ground early on. Sadly, it did not and we have a different winner.

I use the term 'winner' losely as I don't actually believe anyone has won. Just a couple of groups of people have been made to look inept.

However, they (mostly, Mr Forsythe) want to move forward now so let's get excited about the future instead of dwelling on the well trodden past.

I sometimes wonder what people really want from all of this?

Good grief, we have one series which is what we all wanted. Now, it would have been great had CART been run properly back in the day and ground IRL into the ground early on. Sadly, it did not and we have a different winner.

I use the term 'winner' losely as I don't actually believe anyone has won. Just a couple of groups of people have been made to look inept.

However, they (mostly, Mr Forsythe) want to move forward now so let's get excited about the future instead of dwelling on the well trodden past.


Exactly.

As far as "the Split" goes we all lost. I do not think anyone could say that any one person, party or entity "won" that particular chapter of open wheel racing history.

It was either reunify or everyone goes down the crapper. The fact that this was finally recognized and acted upon is a "win" for all of us.

I sometimes wonder what people really want from all of this?

Good grief, we have one series which is what we all wanted. Now, it would have been great had CART been run properly back in the day and ground IRL into the ground early on. Sadly, it did not and we have a different winner.

I use the term 'winner' losely as I don't actually believe anyone has won. Just a couple of groups of people have been made to look inept.

However, they (mostly, Mr Forsythe) want to move forward now so let's get excited about the future instead of dwelling on the well trodden past.

Putting this: Now, it would have been great had CART been run properly back in the day and ground IRL into the ground early on. in the above post make the entire post hypocritical.

In what way, pray tell?

Oh dear.

I think most anyone wants one series.

Probably what is of interest now is where it goes from here. The irl in it's current format doesn't interest me. I don't like the cars or the engines or the "spec" rules. Nor does many of the current venues like Richmond for instance appeal. I'll watch with interest how it develops over the next year or two.

I can see history repeating itself and a new "white paper" happening.

PT just called Helio C. "Twinkletoes" on WIND TUNNEL:laugh:
i hope he finds a ride!

This thread has gone a long, long ways. It's gone from rules to venues to insults to rights to wrongs to grumpies who don't realize that the SPORT has won by becoming one series.

Growth? Time will tell, but it has a much better chance of getting a series sponsor as one, it has a better chance of putting on a better show with the other teams included, TV will be much more focused, there will be no more confusion and the more the merrier.

But this will come in small steps...an autograph session, an appearance, a TV interview, couple tenths of a TV rating point, Helio dancing, Danica in SI....I hope PT gets a decent ride because he's the "character" the SPORT needs who isn't always PC and he has a great Canadian following. All these things and others will cause the SPORT to grow as one series. But it won't happen overnight.

And no stupid gimmicks like push to pass or red tyres.

I missed Paul Tracy on Windtunnel last night - did he say anything interesting?

Until we nip blocking in the bud, Wills, I think pust-to-pass is a reasonable option on road courses. If you have it set like it was at Mexico City, drivers will eventually find blocking to be fairly useless. The option tires will be useful as long as we have a spec, of de facto spec, series. With the cars so even and blocking being tolerated at some level, you almost need that something extra to create a differential between the cars.

Until we get a new rules package and new cars from multiple manufacturers, I think push-to-pass is a good option at road courses, and option tires would be useful at all tracks.

Isn't there a no blocking rule anyways?

It's a stupid rule mind you... just wave everyone past, jeez...

I missed Paul Tracy on Windtunnel last night - did he say anything interesting?

PT just called Helio C. "Twinkletoes" on WIND TUNNEL:laugh:
i hope he finds a ride!

PT needs a ride.
the cars need a COMPLETE redo come 09 (just start over); engine and chassis---long live Panoz!
push to pass should be as unlimited as possible (just put a big NOS tank in there and press the button til its all gone)
fast speedways w/ some flat tracks---not short tracks unless they are dirt;)
street courses and the NA, OW, natural terrain road courses that everyone likes
run 30 races a year starting in March and Ending in Sept with at least 25 cars on the gird for every race
make it happen

run 30 races a year starting in March and Ending in Sept with at least 25 cars on the gird for every race

If only there was the sponsorship to do it, I'd be in heaven, an Auto Race season that fills time between the Hockey Season

Isn't there a no blocking rule anyways?

It's a stupid rule mind you... just wave everyone past, jeez...

never really fully grasped those rules, either.

What blocking rule? I am aware of a few things, but if there was a serious rule, it was never, or almost never, properly enforced. In which case, it may as well have been as if there was no rule.

There is a blocking rule in the IRL. I remember screaming in disbelief at my TV when Tomas Enge was given a drive-through for "blocking", when he was trying to get out of the way of a slower car and cut off another driver by mistake.

Hopefully having Tony Cottman on board will result in fewer opportunities for screaming disbelief, Down F0rce!

What blocking rule? I am aware of a few things, but if there was a serious rule, it was never, or almost never, properly enforced. In which case, it may as well have been as if there was no rule.

Timo Glock was forced to move over in Canada for blocking.

Was that Canada or Cleveland, or am I thinking of another driver?

It was Canada. It gave Servia his first win.

The real question would be, how fast would the Indycars be going on approach to Turn 3 (after they've been flat or nearly flat for a mile and a half). The start/finish straight itself is 4700ft. The straight between Turns 1 and 2 is 1350ft, and the straight from Turns 2 to 3 is 1300ft. I don't know how much length the corners add to that, but that must give an overall length of that run that is spmewhere over 8000ft (and Turn 1 is noticeably banked).
The main straight from end of the exit of the final turn to the start of turn one, has been listed as five thousand feet for decades.
Were they inflating the numbers for press purposes?

Turn one banking is eighteen degrees. Mark Donohue drove off it with the Porshce 917 when a tire deflated.
He walked away, unhurt.
The straight was briefly named after Grey Young, when he was the first one to hit two hundred miles per hour on it, with a Can-Am car.

If they can handle Road America, they should have no problems at Donnybrooke.

In what way, pray tell?

Oh dear.
Because your post was in response to other posters who rather than move on were whining about how evil this, that or the other had been, BUT rather than just say "let's move on", you have to insert your own--I did not lke the IRL and wish CART had crushed it-- rhetoric

THat makes your--let's move on--statement a farce as even you could not let a sleeping dog lie.
Bob

Bob, the numbers I used are from the BIR website itself. I am curious though, where exactly did you find the precise banking for Turn 1? I didn't spot it on the track website offhand, then again, I could have missed it.

Bob, the numbers I used are from the BIR website itself. I am curious though, where exactly did you find the precise banking for Turn 1? I didn't spot it on the track website offhand, then again, I could have missed it.
I have known the banking numbers for decades, but I did again read it just recently but I do not have the faintest idea where I read it.

IT was within the past three weeks I again saw the banking numbers, arrrrh.
It might have been in one of the books I disposed of recently, or perhaps one I went through to see if it was worth keeping, but that is guessing, I am sure it was not off the net.

I am guessing that the five thousand feet is if one includes the banked curve, which would make sense. I guess I heard it so often it became an automatic respnse.
Some gents have kept the pedal to the metal all through the corner. (They asked Miguel duHamel why he did not keep the throttle open, he said it was because his skirt kept blowing up over his head.)
Bob
PS--The short track was cut because of the goo the NHRA puts down turns into grease when it get wet, and even with the squared turn nine for bikes, they never did like going under the bridge.
I hope they are done screwing with it. (Although watching formula vees on the looooong straight was a matter of patience, or how many beers you could dring before they made one lap.

With this chassis shortage where are all the Panoz (would the plural be Pani?) chassis? Second, will the drivers be racing for the Vanderbilt cup any time soon or is that dead and gone?

Chris

I have known the banking numbers for decades, but I did again read it just recently but I do not have the faintest idea where I read it.

IT was within the past three weeks I again saw the banking numbers, arrrrh.
It might have been in one of the books I disposed of recently, or perhaps one I went through to see if it was worth keeping, but that is guessing, I am sure it was not off the net.

I am guessing that the five thousand feet is if one includes the banked curve, which would make sense. I guess I heard it so often it became an automatic respnse.
Some gents have kept the pedal to the metal all through the corner. (They asked Miguel duHamel why he did not keep the throttle open, he said it was because his skirt kept blowing up over his head.)
Bob
PS--The short track was cut because of the goo the NHRA puts down turns into grease when it get wet, and even with the squared turn nine for bikes, they never did like going under the bridge.
I hope they are done screwing with it. (Although watching formula vees on the looooong straight was a matter of patience, or how many beers you could dring before they made one lap.

A good friend of mine is an instructor at Donnybrooke and he tells me the banking is going to have a chicane put in front of it to slow the banking way down. There are going to be some other major fixes as well but construction hasn't begun yet. It does sound like when construction is done it is going to be a nice place.