Costs of Racing?

Is it me or is the price of what used to be CLUB racing now beyond the average Joe to run in a series, or even the young come thru the lower ranks without major sponsorship/parental input, Years ago I used to Race Wendy Wools and Thunder saloons, There were 2 [both 22yo] of us footing the bills, and we could just about afford to do it, I cant envisage my son paired up with his mate being able to do this even if they wanted to do so,
So where is all the youth going to get their Motorsport thrills,----------Seems drifting is one of the options, does creates some supurb car control skills, and if you go out and buy youself a 325BMW, swap in a 3.5 its tail out competition,
I do a bit of drag racing these days and I can tell you this is another place the youth is taking up in their droves, Perhaps not a real high skill form of motorsport in the lower classes, but extremely accessable for the lad who wants to race, each race may only last 15 secs but its fun for them,
Both forms of these motorsport can be done in their daily driver then hopefully drive home
My question is, what is the British circuit fraternity doing to entice the youth in CHEAP entry level motorsport that you can compete in their daily driver without getting tangled up in the Blue Book regs?????

My question is, what is the British circuit fraternity doing to entice the youth in CHEAP entry level motorsport that you can compete in their daily driver without getting tangled up in the Blue Book regs?????
Sprinting and track days.

This Time Attack stuff seems to be getting popular too!
It's outside of the blue book too, so no stuffy MSA minions to interfere with it!

Ian, I was going to say that as we are both the same age (I think) how could you afford to go racing when you were 22. But then I remembered how at that age I struggled to run my speed boat and change my car every 3 or 4 months, and the fuel and insurance bills for those 3ltr Capris were horrendous even then. :innocent:

Pro rata I think its worse now with everybody wanting their pound of flesh, and I now limit what I spend and do less races. I have always run on a shoestring budget so I can have a "normal" life in the real world. The guy in the unit next to me has started in drifting and I found out that an entry fee for his complete season is less than one of my race entries !!.
OK I am aware that drifting is not all on high profile tracks (at the moment) but he is still getting a buzz for a lot less bucks and possibly bigger crowds than a normal clubbie.
The choice between sangria and sun and a wet clubbie is getting closer :)

My question is, what is the British circuit fraternity doing to entice the youth in CHEAP entry level motorsport that you can compete in their daily driver without getting tangled up in the Blue Book regs?????

Not sure circuit racing is that possible [not for me anyway atm] but I'm younger than 22 and have to pay for it all myself - have managed a fair amount of club stuff [sprinting, car trials, scatters, autotests, gymkhanas etc] and a circuit race but can't afford to do any more at the moment because of the £££. And for the club stuff I use my daily driver, yes have changed a few things on it [eg tyres so that they are on list 1A for sprinting] but not had to pay out much.

Cost of racing? toooo much. I did a few races back in 1978 when I was 20. the cost then were no were what I could afford. Finished College, went to graduate school, yatta yatta

So I picket racing back up 5 years ago, when I was 47, and it is still too expesive now.

If racing is in your blood, and we hope it is, you do what you have to do. Start a part time business, to bring in extra money.

Heck with the internet, buy things cheap and sell them on ebay.

as we say

Get it done.

Ian, I was going to say that as we are both the same age (I think) how could you afford to go racing when you were 22. But then I remembered how at that age I struggled to run my speed boat and change my car every 3 or 4 months, and the fuel and insurance bills for those 3ltr Capris were horrendous even then. :innocent:

As we went to the same school as me and the same year, I would guess we are about the same age, :rofl:
Seriously, After finishing my Engineering apprenticship, I went straight into the Fleet St print as an Engineer, The money was allright, which helped:rotate:

I'm with Gordon on this one. Over here entry fees went (and I do stand to be corrected) €350 (all layouts)to €375 and up to €500 on a certain layout of circuit this year. I can no longer justify that to either myself or my better half so this year I have given up racing in Ireland and am doing 4 foreign events (cheaper entry's and longer races) instead. Even including the cost of travel it works out cheaper than a full 8 round season here and its in the sun...I hope!! And SHE likes the sun.....In the mid '90's I was doing circuit racing, rallycross and a bit of rallying, all on a pittance. Couldn't dream of that now.
It's not all the circuit owners either, but also the extra stuff that racing a car seems to require nowadays what with 'approved' racewear/seats/extinguishers etc etc. While I'm no luddite, 'approved' does seem to mean over-priced and at times unnecessary...eg Rainlights on saloon cars with lights. This year the Time Attack guys are running at various 'normal' race meetings and the interesting thing is that bar an approved helmet and in date belts everything else is free. Yes the car must have a cage buy it can be made by someone themselves under proper guidelines. Race suit is from a list of dates that I am not allowed wear. Hand held ext. Whats the difference between me in my 1300 Fiat and a guy in a 650bhp Subaru? Oh and he won't need to spend silly money renewing thier comp licence either. All he needs is a road licence! And the entry for a similar amoutn of track time? €150!! Nope, can't work it out myself either.....Wonder if ther will be an Historic section anytime soon...
End of Rant.

Chequebook racers anyone?

One can still race on a shoe string, if one doesn't travel far and wide. One doesn't have to join a national series, one could join one's local club and do 8 -10 races a year. One does not have to buy a winning car to go racing, start from the bottom and work your way to the top.

I haven't raced in almost 2 years now, I have been cash strapped and now I am ill for the fore-seeable future, I hate it. I can't work because I am deemed as too ill, I am not allowed to drive my road car because I am ill. I went to the Brit GTs today, I loved it, soaking in the atmosphere and the noise and some rain too. I am lucky I've always lived 15 miles from Knockhill, its my home circuit, its home to me, now in my 25th year of racing there, I was telling friends, who work for a BGT team, how the weather reacts at Knockhill, just because I know.

I know guys who spend £x000s on tyres alone in 1 season, its meant to be entry level motorsport, one doesn't need new tyres every race! Unless you are running on super-soft hillclimb tyres or your car needs really looking at. We know a guy whose old race car used to consume driveshafts, he went through 3 in a weekend.

Enough of my ranting!

This Time Attack stuff seems to be getting popular too!
It's outside of the blue book too, so no stuffy MSA minions to interfere with it!

Have you seen what people are spending in Time Attack? Some are spending more than 50k. Japanese super cars car are not cheap in terms of tune up parts and costs to take a 300 bhp Subaru or a GTR to 600+ will cost you silly money. Then it will still be slower around a race track compared to a Single seater or a BTCC car

No matter what you do someone is always going to have more money and/or try to reinvent the wheel. That's just the way it is.

The price of entry level motor sports keeps climbing while wages and business profits keep falling.

Entry fees are only a part of the costs:

Fuel to and from the event
Food and Lodging, ( tent or camper work well)
Fuel for the race car
Car preperation ( replace or fix parts as needed )
Brake fluid and brake pads
Tires only last soo long, If you get a season out of tires, your not going hard or fast enough.

Sprinting may seem cheap, but it's poor value for money IMHO.

Racing always was expensive, look back over the years (think immediate post/pre war) and the man-in-the-street didn't race. When was it affordable?

I reckon it's better than ever now, with indoor/outdoor karting, trackdays, Time Attack (whatever that is), often you don't even need your own equipment to go racing. You won't fill up the coffers of the MSA, but you'll have a great time with low-involvement and still have another life. Why bother with club circuit racing with all its expensive paraphernalia?

Never mind the rose-coloured specs for the past, we are living in a golden period and let's enjoy it before elf'n'safety realise we're having a great time and ban it all!

Sprinting may seem cheap, but it's poor value for money IMHO.



Def agree on that one but there is plenty of other "cheap" club stuff that can be fun.

Always in danger here of falling into that very British trap, of "he does it, so I have to do it and put it on the credit card"...

Racing is expensive, always has been although at the moment there is a lot of cash in the business and your basic GT2 Le Mans drive has doubled in price in the last 3 years... a global recession and these sort of things will come back down, esp. when Mr Ratel gets his way and runs GT3 at Le Mans... (if ever).

But cost of cars/ tyres and fuel all add up and always have done I'm afraid... it's true though, UK racing is VERY poor value compared to Europe, but thats a function of the tax/costs situation of running a team in the UK... blame El Gordo...

I did my first circuit race in 1977 the entry fee was £4. At the time the average wage was £68 per week. This season entrees are £190, by my calculation one would have to be earning £3230 per week to maintain the status quo.

I did my first circuit race in 1977 the entry fee was £4. At the time the average wage was £68 per week. This season entrees are £190, by my calculation one would have to be earning £3230 per week to maintain the status quo.

My first race in 1980 cost £15 entry and £15 for a mornings test at Mallory. In those days I was on £120 a week, so it was affordable. It Isn't anymore:(

When I "started" actually driving the entry fees were £120 then £150, now I think its £200? I am not sure coz there is a tv contract involved and I haven't been able to race since that started. I have no idea how much it was when Dad started in 83.

When my uncle used to race in the fifties and sixties and I used to watch at the age of one from my pedal car they used to pay him to race and give prize money as well, so how's that.

One of the factors now I think is there are more professional organisers involved in the UK.Good or bad,they are here to stay.

When I was hot rodding the entries were free, we got traveling expenses also we won money. I don't know what the set up on the ovals is now ?
OK I know that the overheads weren't as much and we used to get massive crowds packed into a small space, but I still think we are being shafted today.
Also I don't fly to work in a helicopter !

Was only having this convo last night with Dad, he was saying when he raced British FF2000 entry fee's were only £15!!
To pay for my racing, rightly or wrongly i've opted to live at home this year instead of on uni campus and use the money from my student loan to pay for entries and parts!! :laugh:

As has been said many times before,IF the organiser's were to advertise the fact that there is a meeting at such and such circuit,perhaps the attendance figures will rise.More has to be done in this respect,then perhaps gate charges could come down as well as entry fee's.

.....To pay for my racing, rightly or wrongly i've opted to live at home this year instead of on uni campus and use the money from my student loan to pay for entries and parts!! :laugh:
We all have to make sacrifices...I've just blown my whole old persons annual home heating allowance on one race entry!

I’m an ‘average Joe’ with wife, daughter, dogs, mortgage etc earning just over £32K a year and have been racing in classics since 1998 in a Triumph Spitfire. With costs of fuel/safety equipment/car parts/entry fees...... moving up faster than my pay packet, racing my Spit is now just about out of my reach and I depend on extra overtime money to fund my racing, no overtime = no racing :(

However I just spent an excellent day at my local oval track (Mendip raceway) and prices are at the other end of the scale, banger racers (contact allowed) get starting money as do the slick shod spaceframe Hot Rods. The Special Rods, a non contact formula of Ford Sierras pay a grand total £60 for a licence and to register for the whole year, NO entry fees. Cars cost around £500 to buy and prepare. At each meeting you get 2 heats and a final (or consolation round) of close frenetic racing with up to 40 cars on a 1/4mile oval. Bargain of the century I think.

Admittedly I’d rather be racing classics rather than sierras, but the economics are hard to argue with.

Andy

I started racing in 1982 and I certainly don't remember £15 entry fees. Of the order of £35 for a speed event, around £50 for a race. I was earning just under £3k IIRC so race entry of the order of 1 week's wages.

Kyle's dad started a bit before me I think so I reckon we've pinned down the time when race entries started to go up to the early 1980s - possibly 80/81.

Story of my life, I always miss the good times! :laugh:

Just coughed up £630 for 2 x enduro races plus garage & testing at MG Silverstone. That makes one race under a week's wages for Mr Average.

Entry fees got a bit cheaper then but barriers to entry MUCH higher.

Eeee, when I were a lad, we started racing before we were even born, and the tracks used to pay us 3 groats and a sausage roll for every race we started. 'Course, in those days, we had 2 day's track time for every shilling we spent, and we only earnt a fiver a year.

Back then, a spanner was t'spanner, oil was real oily, and it was bump or be bumped. And at last I knew Darlington.

One of the factors now I think is there are more professional organisers involved in the UK.Good or bad,they are here to stay.

there are more origanisers who make money out of it/us, whether they are professional or not is a matter of opinion...:rofl:

I started circuits in 97 and it was about £48 to enter as I recollect, anyhow I would need to earn £4000 a week to be in the same situation the only difference now is I have no mortgage or young kids to raise now so yes pro rata its a hell of a lot dearer. There was a period and I think it started after her ladyship took over at Brands that prices started esculating out of all proportion and neither the clubs or circuit operators seemed to understand the phrase 'In line with current rate of inflation' and always seem to pitch increases way above that with prehaps the exception this year so maybe the message of small grids is getting through. Also the mandatory dating of equipment and specification increases has not helped.

BTW MGDavid have you seen the entry fee for a round of the Heritage series, astronomic if you ask me and way out of my league.

Just as an aside,Spa 6Hr meeting for last year the circuit hire was in the region of 12k per hour.I dread to think what Silverstone charges.

Just as an aside,Spa 6Hr meeting for last year the circuit hire was in the region of 12k per hour.I dread to think what Silverstone charges. Yet racing at Spa is cheaper than at Brands or Silverstone and I don't think they charge anywhere near that much.

I'm with Gordon on this one. Over here entry fees went (and I do stand to be corrected) €350 (all layouts)to €375 and up to €500 on a certain layout of circuit this year. I can no longer justify that to either myself or my better half so this year I have given up racing in Ireland

I agree with all of this, although I'm only new to racing as last year was my first season of motor racing in a Styker. I found the thing that killed me was the entry fees, after spending whatever was required to repair the car and just about managing to put food on the table, the entry form would still need to be completed and credit card put on the bottom to pay for the entry (and not forgetting practice either + €130)

It's not all the circuit owners either, but also the extra stuff that racing a car seems to require nowadays what with 'approved' racewear/seats/extinguishers etc etc. While I'm no luddite, 'approved' does seem to mean over-priced and at times unnecessary...eg Rainlights on saloon cars with lights. This year the Time Attack guys are running at various 'normal' race meetings and the interesting thing is that bar an approved helmet and in date belts everything else is free. Yes the car must have a cage buy it can be made by someone themselves under proper guidelines. Race suit is from a list of dates that I am not allowed wear. Hand held ext. Whats the difference between me in my 1300 Fiat and a guy in a 650bhp Subaru? Oh and he won't need to spend silly money renewing thier comp licence either. All he needs is a road licence! And the entry for a similar amoutn of track time? €150!! Nope, can't work it out myself either.....Wonder if ther will be an Historic section anytime soon...
End of Rant.

Don't forget the Hans device needs to be added to the list pretty soon too which aren't cheap.
The time attack does seem like a viable option although to be competitive requires serious cash inputs too as a lot of tuning companies use their time attack cars to showcase their skills and products, some UK companies hire pro drivers too. So I don't know how cheap it would be if you want to win.
The same goes for drifting (where I started), big cash outlay required to be competitive but still more accessable than racing.

I think nowadays racing is for the upper social class, or single people with good credit ratings:laugh: , I've had to stop after one season as I've become a dad and I too just can't justify the ongoing expenses. Hopefully next season I can get a campaign together but it looks unlikely with the costs.

The more I read, the more I get wound up! I am meant to take it easy at the moment!

I am unemployed, I can't afford to race, so I don't! My car needs built, I have another 1 for this eventuality but I can't race coz I haven't renewed my licence because I can't afford it and I have been deemed to unwell to drive!

If you are moaning about having to drive 100 miles + away to run in a national series, take a step back and ask why.
If you love racing so much go and race in your local club series, we've done a couple of non-local series and it wasn't worth it, it cost lots of money to fuel the tow cars and drive 150 miles (400 miles in one case) to race for 15-20 mins and not come away with anything, maybe a crappy metal cup if you're lucky. There will always be someone that has a more expensive car or a bigger budget that will hammer everyone else, even in "entry level" series.

As for cost of things, I remember when a can of coke was about 25p. You'll be lucky if you get much change from a £1! Its this damn Labour government. (Tory mode off)

Eeee, when I were a lad, we started racing before we were even born, and the tracks used to pay us 3 groats and a sausage roll for every race we started. 'Course, in those days, we had 2 day's track time for every shilling we spent, and we only earnt a fiver a year.

Back then, a spanner was t'spanner, oil was real oily, and it was bump or be bumped. And at last I knew Darlington.

And your dad told you about Monty Python:p

Yet racing at Spa is cheaper than at Brands or Silverstone and I don't think they charge anywhere near that much.


The TEAM at Spa consist's mainly of Alain and Vincent,they organize the weekend,then sell off the different slots.That then goes full circle back to the separate race organizers.So I suppose it mainly comes down to the Circuit owners,exit Nichola Fulston,she started the ball rolling!

Terry,
I suppose one thing to take into account with race entry costs at Spa is the fact that the grids are double the size of Brands and always full, I can only think of a small number of series that can muster a full grid at any English track.


rcarr,
Most of us don't go racing with the idea of coming home with a cup although it is nice to win something. If you really want a trophy then £200 would buy something very special and all from the comfort of your own armchair.

I race for the love of racing Tim. I don't need a trophy to tell me how good I am at racing, I already know!

I just need the money to buy a better car and the means of transporting it so I can start coming down south to try and race with you guys.

I suppose one thing to take into account with race entry costs at Spa is the fact that the grids are double the size of Brands and always full, I can only think of a small number of series that can muster a full grid at any English track.

Perhaps the keep it cheap and they will come idea (like airlines) would attract bigger grids. I have looked closely at club historic series in Germany and France over the last 2 years and they are much cheaper to run in, usually longer races (which doesn't suit everyone I admit) and attract grids of 20-25 cars at 'normal ' circuits. When some of these series run at Spa or the Ring, they combine together to fill the grid. Indeed CSCC do this when they go foriegn I believe. Big constant is the Entry fees. Very slight rises and in some cases no change at all. It seems to me that we will all buy the 'un-necessary' ancilaries but the constant monthly price of a holiday for our 20 mins is people putting people off.

I started circuits in 97 and it was about £48 to enter as I recollect, anyhow I would need to earn £4000 a week to be in the same situation the only difference now is I have no mortgage or young kids to raise now so yes pro rata its a hell of a lot dearer. There was a period and I think it started after her ladyship took over at Brands that prices started esculating out of all proportion and neither the clubs or circuit operators seemed to understand the phrase 'In line with current rate of inflation' and always seem to pitch increases way above that with prehaps the exception this year so maybe the message of small grids is getting through. Also the mandatory dating of equipment and specification increases has not helped.

BTW MGDavid have you seen the entry fee for a round of the Heritage series, astronomic if you ask me and way out of my league.
Opps that should have been 87 of course by 97 it was way over a hundred quid!

Terry,
I suppose one thing to take into account with race entry costs at Spa is the fact that the grids are double the size of Brands and always full, I can only think of a small number of series that can muster a full grid at any English track.


rcarr,
Mot of us don't go racing with the idea of coming home with a cup although it is nice to win something. If you really want a trophy then £200 would buy something very special and all from the comfort of your own armchair.

Tim,you have a PM.In answer to the Spa thing is not just the Six Hour being relatively cheap at 2k Eu [broken down thats £330 or there abouts per hour].
Overall circuit hire is cheaper though out Europe,like I mentioned earlier,we can blame bloody Fulston for the rises in entry fee's,you only have to go back to just before she took the reignes of the four circuits and remember the entry fee's then.At least we can look forward to one day having a real driver amongst us.;)

Perhaps the keep it cheap and they will come idea (like airlines) would attract bigger grids. I have looked closely at club historic series in Germany and France over the last 2 years and they are much cheaper to run in, usually longer races (which doesn't suit everyone I admit) and attract grids of 20-25 cars at 'normal ' circuits. When some of these series run at Spa or the Ring, they combine together to fill the grid. Indeed CSCC do this when they go foriegn I believe. Big constant is the Entry fees. Very slight rises and in some cases no change at all. It seems to me that we will all buy the 'un-necessary' ancilaries but the constant monthly price of a holiday for our 20 mins is people putting people off.
You only need to look at the DNM and the new PBMW/TTRS series for grid sizes. They seem to be catering for the drivers, not the clubs or circuit owners.
The 20 minute holiday price syndrome has hit me this year, I will be very selective with what I do to the point I wont be going to Brands (my local track) with one of my series due to a £300 entry fee.
Instead I will spend my money on couple of trips to Spa which I treat as a mini holiday for around the same cost as a race at Donington.

I will be very selective with what I do to the point I wont be going to Brands (my local track) with one of my series due to a £300 entry fee.

Tim, you are pointing this out, but you still own and race to what most people would class as a very expensive car (£30k-60k). Unless we suddenly become millionaires over night, never in our wildest dreams could we afford a "play thing" like that. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'd buy a Ligier, a Juno or a Jade for that.

My Dad has a single car in our collection of vintage and classic vehicles that compares to yours in price, its a vintage road-going Rolls Royce.

30 to 60k eh Tim for a glass fibre bodied replica, snatch that man's hand off! ;-)

Funny how just about everyone who goes to Spa treats it like a holiday Tim.:laugh:The bit I really hate about Spa? The trip back here!!

One problem with the cost of racing is supply and demand at motor racing circuits. In the USA, road courses are going in all over the country. Most circuits are hired out almost everyday, weather permitting. Circuits have full schedules so they jack the rates up due to demand.

From reading what our European friends pay for entry fees, we have a bargin here in the states. My next two race weekend are $265 and $249. and that is TWO races each weekend, plus qual, and warm-up sessions each day.


Renting tracks is not too difficult, just have to get in any time that is available, and when a weekend opens up and offered, you take it.

30 to 60k eh Tim for a glass fibre bodied replica, snatch that man's hand off! ;-)

Al, I'm just going by what I've seen other replicas sell for and its a quite a bit cheaper than a real one!

We thought about making one from a kit from one of our cars that is "kicking about" doing not alot at the moment, but even those prices are prohibitive.

Looking at some old race programmes from the early 60s most of the drivers seemed to have "double barreled" names. Perhaps I'll change my name by deed poll to up my credit rating !:cool:

Just fill it in as Mr G Gordon-Streeter, wear a nice hacking jacket, and you're finest pork pie hat - you know you want to!

Jolly good show! Carry on everyone!

Rob

Looking at some old race programmes from the early 60s most of the drivers seemed to have "double barreled" names. Perhaps I'll change my name by deed poll to up my credit rating !:cool:

Gordon Streeter-Lighter,or as Tim and my name has always been Falsie-Falce.
If we go back to the 60s,have a look at the crowds in the stands,the bank at Brands used to be jammed with cars and the noise when the driver did his lap of honour was something.We,the drivers,seem to be shouldering the main expense for meetings instead of attracting the paying public as in the good old days.;)

Gents,
returning to SPA ( I ain't been yet) take a look at the RCN series
www.r-c-n.com Mainly based at the ring, but I've just entered the SPA round in june for 345 euro. that's for a 40 lap change driver in the middle event.
that works out to 172 euro each for 140km each. That's £138.64 each at todays exchange rates. You can do it on a UK national A, and they have a historics section Al (pre'95).
It's not an expensive car - standardish rover 220 turbo coupe (astra still has dropped valve) probably the same as half a dozen full priced slicks !
Did the same series at the ring (GP Circuit) last year - all the officials very helpful. they even supply their own transponders! Didn't understand a word at the drivers briefing ! Been to Nightschool for german since, so will probably understand guten morgen this year before my eyes glaze over :order:

Exactly Eric,I put it down [as already stated] to the lack of local advertising by the Organising Clubs.The more spectators,the higher the gate value,surely that would help on entry fee's.Problem these days is that it's possibly £100 for a day out for a couple with two kid's time everything is taken into account,so the gate prices need to be more atractive inorder to get Joe through the gate.

I don't need a trophy to tell me how good I am at racing, I already know!

If you weren't so modest, you'd be perfect.

If you weren't so modest, you'd be perfect.




I did wonder how long it would take.:rotate:

From reading what our European friends pay for entry fees, we have a bargin here in the states. My next two race weekend are $265 and $249. and that is TWO races each weekend, plus qual, and warm-up sessions each day.


Renting tracks is not too difficult, just have to get in any time that is available, and when a weekend opens up and offered, you take it.
Very interesting, I think for Club racing my fellow racers - you should all shift down under !
Last weekend at Ruapuna (Christchurch (NZ)) Club day 5 was $70 NZ for which we got - free practice, quals, 1 class race, 1 all in, and one all in handicap race...we normally also get a flying farewell, but due to incident enquiry we missed out !
June, we can run our club cars in a two day promoted meeting (V8 utes & TV) for $120 NZ !!:p

However I just spent an excellent day at my local oval track (Mendip raceway) and prices are at the other end of the scale, banger racers (contact allowed) get starting money as do the slick shod spaceframe Hot Rods. The Special Rods, a non contact formula of Ford Sierras pay a grand total £60 for a licence and to register for the whole year, NO entry fees. Cars cost around £500 to buy and prepare. At each meeting you get 2 heats and a final (or consolation round) of close frenetic racing with up to 40 cars on a 1/4mile oval. Bargain of the century I think.

Admittedly I’d rather be racing classics rather than sierras, but the economics are hard to argue with.

Andy

Crikey, I might have to investigate that - anyone know if there is anything similar near Derby/ Loughborough.

Forget the trophies, bring on the BIG SPONSORS CONTRACTS and loads of Grid Girls.

I did wonder how long it would take.:rotate:A latter day Gerry Marshall I'd say :laugh:

Crikey, I might have to investigate that - anyone know if there is anything similar near Derby/ Loughborough.

Take a look here for short circuit locations.
http://www.saloonstockcars.com/

Andy

I did wonder how long it would take.:rotate:
Ah but he must be famous for something !!!!!

A latter day Gerry Marshall I'd say :laugh:


Never heard of him!










[Either]

Forget the trophies, bring on the BIG SPONSORS CONTRACTS and loads of Grid Girls.

It always comes back to grid girls! Grid girls don't make the sport any better, most of them are munters under all that make-up, my fiancee could give most of them a run for their money. ;)

I feel they give it a bad reputation, its the Max Power influence coming into a gentleman's sport. We'll be having cheerleader shows at half time at rugby matches soon!:rotate:

We'll be having cheerleader shows at half time at rugby matches soon!:rotate:
Well rugby always was a gurlie game.

I race for the love of racing Tim. I don't need a trophy to tell me how good I am at racing, I already know!


Its a pity there aren't any more corners to be named at Knockhill !
As I read the last remaining one has just gone to a very special driver.

most of them are munters under all that make-up, my fiancee could give most of them a run for their money.
Hope the poor girl doesn't frequent these boards rcarr. It's an interesting observation which could lead to a further loss of mobility :)

Take a look here for short circuit locations.
http://www.saloonstockcars.com/

Andy

I moved over to the darkside a few years ago. I race in CAMSO V8 in Belgium. Its a short oval formula for American late model stock cars (mine is in my avatar!)

My expenses per year are
Garage to keep it E1000 (i just noticed my keyboard doesn't have a Euro key!)
Ferry £804
Tyres 12 E1000
Fuel E691 for the race car
Fuel £240 for the road car
Championship registration is E25
We get about 12 meetings including Saturday practice (Friday on the long weekend meetings) and 3 or 4 races on Sunday and or bank holiday Monday ranging between 25 and 75 laps

I often look at different race series but, if i'm honest, i don't think i would ever go circuit racing under the MSA again.

I think the whole future of club racing is looking extremelly dire especially with this latest credit crunch costs of fuel etc. when it comes to it the bottom line is if its pay yer mortgage or go racing most will opt for the former. I believe the time has now come for drastic cost cutting action from circuits and clubs and if that is simply not possible then thats it, its a dead parrot.

Like me Tim, (Sir) Jim Clark was born in Fife, about 10 miles from me! We know the people that now live in his parent's old house, they were our former customers.

Back on toipc again, I think Al is right, club racing is dying a death, 1 make series are taking over and the sports and saloons/ libre races are being entered by people who don't care about the club or the rest of the field, they just buy a fast car to win, they don't do it for the sport, they do it for reputation, so they can have it plastered all over their garages "Sports and Saloons Champions of ..."

the bottom line is if its pay yer mortgage or go racing most will opt for the former. Or wait until you've paid your mortgage. Don't forget that a great many people use their businesses to pay for their racing.

How pray tell? I was told unless you are claiming you are testing or promoting a race orientated product that you manufacture then you cannot write it back. If so I would have done it years ago and even I could maybe say I am testing vinyl graphics to see if they stay on the vehicle!

How pray tell? I was told unless you are claiming you are testing or promoting a race orientated product that you manufacture then you cannot write it back. If so I would have done it years ago and even I could maybe say I am testing vinyl graphics to see if they stay on the vehicle!Advertising for a start, maybe you need a proper accountant.

Well, this is fun.

Are you sure about this Tim? Check it out I think you may be in for a surprise as it was the case a few years ago but no more another thing that has changed in recent times.

Advertising for a start, maybe you need a proper accountant.

Absolutly Falcie,My accountant has always been able to claim for mine.

Are you sure about this Tim? Check it out I think you may be in for a surprise as it was the case a few years ago but no more another thing that has changed in recent times.
Well that's what my chief sponsor keeps telling me.

How pray tell? I was told unless you are claiming you are testing or promoting a race orientated product that you manufacture then you cannot write it back. If so I would have done it years ago and even I could maybe say I am testing vinyl graphics to see if they stay on the vehicle!

Al You should be able to put BIG Decals on your car that advertise:

"Al's PRINT SHOP"

and be able to take at least a portion off as advertising deductions.

It does - it's got his company name in ruddy great letters (on the black beasty at least).

Both of my cars are on the books. I can claim without grief for testing, as they are used as test beds for my radio communications products. I can always buy too much fuel, or too many tyres......

My accountant is a little worried about claiming race expenses though. But he did lighten up a bit when I explained that I'd picked up two customers purely through race exposure.

As Tim has said - you need a different accountant Al!

No I don't he is a good guy and I have been with him for years. Look I had a visit from the VAT people about 6 months ago and since then they have told me I cannot even claim for petrol for my road car so there you go how on earth am I going to claim it for a fun car. Some businesses may be able to but I have looked into this and in the UK that is the situation. As I said Rob how can I claim for testing vinyl graphics, to see if they fly off at 150 mph! If I was racing BMW's and had a BMW dealership then yes thats a possiblity but not in my game. And Tim yes you are probably right your sponsor can sponsor you thats not a problem same as I could sponsor you or you me but not ourselves. And Terence you are in the race prep business are you not so again that would be construed as ligit, see where I am coming from here?

Ok Al send me a check for 1000 and I will send you one back ;)

Ok Al send me a check for 1000 and I will send you one back ;)

That's an idea.

Al,you cannot claim petrol allowance for your road car anymore,you submit to yourself a weekly milage sheet stating for all the miles you do for the buisness,not for traveling to and from work,boring but at 40 pence a mile,very worthwhile.I want a set of numbers from you for my Fiesta,seriously,can you make me up a set please,and i would never have heard of you except for motor racing,also,as you run a chevy you can claim for that under canteen as a mobile kettle!

Exactly Tim,Al,what do you do when "Visiting Potential Clients",surely you use your road car and claim business expenses.As Tim says,you have a mileage sheet[my accountant sent a book to me because she got fed-up with me not using one!]Mileage Start-Where to and Why-Mileage End,simple.
As for the Race Car,that is an Advertising Medium is it not,for "The Promotion" of your business.The more customers that attracts,the more revenue they can suck out of your wallet.

I know all about that but as I choose to run a road car with 4.3 litre petrol engine it falls into a higher catagoury, I discussed all the options with the vat man keeping milage records etc and it was simply unviable with a car with that engine size as they hammer you more and actually worked out better not to claim the vat content back, he did say I can still claim back the tax though oddly enough so not all bad and thats what I do now. Also my car runs on Autogas so bit hard to claim for petrol and thats all I claim for! My only way forward is to buy a van and claim diesel no problems then.

BTW I have a shop so customers come to me, I don't do site visits ever. As for the advertising bit, you ain't resiling are you!!! I said unless as in your case your business is associated with the sport you are dodgy ground, check it out with your accountant if you don't believe me. And Anul the you give me a grand I give you one unfortunately has been covered by a paragraph if you are an active participant in the sponsored sport then its not on. I am sure if you want to take a chance then yes you can take a flyer on it but then at the end of the day the taxman is not stupid so if you are spending more on your sport for 'promotion' than what you take as wages out the company I think a large rat will be smelt. What I am trying to say is basically to write it off, first you have to earn it and thereby lies the problem.

BTW Eric I will make you up anything you want my friend just tell me the font, size and colour and it will be done.

BTW2 Sorry to harp on again about the tax thing but what I have said previously is definitely a factor as I remember when this ruling came out and just prehaps this is yet another reason why there are now less participants in the sport. The only way I can do it is by wholly doing all my own work and I aslo have a brilliant fully equiped (well a lot of gear anyhow) large workshop at the bottom of my garden the day I cannot do that anymore is the day I give up and I think today there are less and less young people with the skills or where with all to tackle some of these jobs and I am not knocking anyone here but that is probably more to do with modern cars and their sealed engine technology, even I don't want to touch them.

Dang Al. Fricken tax ppl take all the fun out of business and sport. I would not mind if they extrated that pound of flesh, it just taking the arms and legs that gets me POd

Anyway, Al I would still put a big graphic on the Camero / race car with

"AL's Print Shop" or what ever your shops name is. And if you get some business because of that, Great.

Al, sponsor me with some stickers and claim that back. Oh and while your at it you could pay a site visit to me because my company might want to place a large order with you. BTW there is no way I am coming to Watford when you want the business so you could always claim the mileage back couldn't you. ;)

Good idea,I know someone who needs "Belga" stickers Al,you could sponsor him as well,no doubt he would give you a decent tip.[In cash];)

Al, we should have thought. My racewear business is 14 miles from Castle Combe, and I need some graphics for my race car. I'm beggered if I'm going all the way to Watford but I've heard you're the best in the business, so I'd have to use you. When you race at Combe next time let me know, and I'll email you asking to come and show me your "mobile CV" which you'll need to bring down on the trailer.

Oh, same applies for Thruxton too, and I'm half way to Pembrey.

These days, most of the circuits are owned by businessmen whose sole aim is to make money. Things like track days etc make more monet than actual competitive motorsport. More and more people are finding ways of making money out of the sport. There was a time when a club could hire an airfield and all the officials were volunteers (unpaid). Now hiring a track costs at least £10K and perhaps £30K and many officials now want a fee.
We also have more and more "commercially run" championships and series and those organisers are bumping up entry fees for their profit.
It is now very difficult to race without registering for a series. If you just want to do a few races without long distance travelling it si very difficult.

Good idea,I know someone who needs "Belga" stickers Al,you could sponsor him as well,no doubt he would give you a decent tip.[In cash];)

Arse!

Actually, I have the designs but I'm running a replica. :p

I should also point out that the 10/10s stickers that some of us run were produced by Al. ;)

[QUOTE=Derwent Motorsp]These days, most of the circuits are owned by businessmen whose sole aim is to make money......... QUOTE]

For a moment we were back on thread, so thought I'd have a bash :)

Businessmen aiming to make money – whatever next?
Of course, they could make far more with zero hassle by selling the land to developers, so there is petrol coursing through some veins Derwent.

Three years ago I spoke to a circuit owner who showed me the running costs of a single circuit. If he never opened the doors, costs were close to a million a year. So I can understand that any circuit needs to be open for business for as many hours as practically possible. You are probably correct in saying that there is more profit in track days and related activities, so it’s positive that racing is still available anywhere.

There was a time when petrol was 2/- (10 p) a gallon, now it's over a fiver, so comparisons with the good old days are irrelevant IMO.

Agreed there are plenty of middlemen taking a share, but they are providing a service (of sorts) in return.

That same circuit owner explained to me that if I wanted to have a reduction in race fees, I needed to be part of a full grid. Too many races contained mid teen entries and some were in single digits. Any large grids were effectively subsidising the small ones.

Your £30K hire fee divided by a typical 8 race programme consisting of 15 cars per grid is £250 each. That’s before you pay anyone to plan, organise and run the meeting, collect the money, send out tickets, printthe programmes and recruit the marshals (who thankfully still are volunteers).

Run the meeting with capacity grids and that share falls to £118. Find a bunch of enthusiastic racers who work voluntarily to do all the above and, as foretold, race fees will diminish. Have a look at the website in my profile for more detail.

It is still possible to race without registering. And there is a spectacularly successful Southern based championship in which most of its competitors don’t travel long distances.

The solution to most of the cost reduction is in our (the racers) hands. It isn’t going to come from elsewhere.

Arse!

Actually, I have the designs but I'm running a replica. :p

I should also point out that the 10/10s stickers that some of us run were produced by Al. ;)



I was only trying to help two fellow Tenthers,why should you not go the whole hog and have it looking like the real thing.I might get some free fags then.:laugh:

[quote=Derwent Motorsp]
The solution to most of the cost reduction is in our (the racers) hands. It isn’t going to come from elsewhere.

Cost reduction and racing is an oxymoron.

Dang Al. Fricken tax ppl take all the fun out of business and sport. I would not mind if they extrated that pound of flesh, it just taking the arms and legs that gets me POd

Anyway, Al I would still put a big graphic on the Camero / race car with

"AL's Print Shop" or what ever your shops name is. And if you get some business because of that, Great.
What something like this AU?

http://www.cadart.com/Images/Black%20camaro%20a.jpg

Al, rent out your other Camaro, produce a set of accounts for your racing, run it as a business that makes a loss. That gives you 5 years to think of something else...

I did it on my XR2 racing car advertising my fiancee's graphic design and my automotive design/aero work. I don't have an income from it so I don't have to OK it with my accountant. We used to advertise our business on the side of our Tiga and renamed the racing team until we stopped the business and properly concentrate on our racing again. The accountant didn't mind, until we moved our business elsewhere. :rofl:

What something like this AU?

http://www.cadart.com/Images/Black%20camaro%20a.jpg

I like it. BIG AND BOLD easy to read at speed. Plus it is a Chevy ;)

And that is a big plus AU especially if I ever get the engine rebuilt after I had to tear it down again due to a perforated cylinder head promptly filling the sump with water, funny they don't like running on a 50/50 mix of oil and water isnt it.

[QUOTE=johnw....... Have a look at the website in my profile for more detail.
It is still possible to race without registering....

>>>>had a look, £100 to register, couldn't see how to race without registering:Shrug:

.....The solution to most of the cost reduction is in our (the racers) hands. It isn’t going to come from elsewhere........

>>>> so what exactly is the MSA for then?? :rant:

>>>>had a look, £100 to register, couldn't see how to race without registering:Shrug:
If you are doing more than 5 races with us then it's worth registering. Otherwise just add £20 to the entry fee.


.....The solution to most of the cost reduction is in our (the racers) hands. It isn’t going to come from elsewhere........

so what exactly is the MSA for then?? :rant:


The MSA is recognised as the sole governing body of motor sport in Great Britain by the world governing body, the Fédération Internationale de l’Automobile (FIA)
As the governing body, the MSA is responsible for the administration and control of the motor sport rules.
These rules are actually made and amended by the Motor Sports Council, which is the ‘parliament’ of motor sport; while MSA staff act as the ‘civil service.’
So there you have it.
Ask me another :rotate:

I think the whole future of club racing is looking extremelly dire especially with this latest credit crunch costs of fuel etc. when it comes to it the bottom line is if its pay yer mortgage or go racing most will opt for the former. I believe the time has now come for drastic cost cutting action from circuits and clubs and if that is simply not possible then thats it, its a dead parrot.

And I've always thought that part of the answer is for the vast majority of club racers to just race regionally. Not only will it cut down travelling costs but they'll be less need for testing and local meeting with local participants may even lead to a slight improvement in local media coverage or even sposorship opportunities. After all why would "Joe Bloggs garage" bother to sponsor anyone who is only going to race locally once in a season.

I'm sure that is part of the reason for the success of DMN.
We're trying to do the same on a National level. Time will tell.

If you are doing more than 5 races with us then it's worth registering. Otherwise just add £20 to the entry fee.
Thta's a very kind offer - is it just for me or is it written down somewhere for all to see ?
QUOTE...The MSA is recognised as the sole governing body of motor sport in Great Britain by the world governing body, the Fédération Internationale de l’Automobile (FIA)
As the governing body, the MSA is responsible for the administration and control of the motor sport rules.
These rules are actually made and amended by the Motor Sports Council, which is the ‘parliament’ of motor sport; while MSA staff act as the ‘civil service.’QUOTE
...and IIRC as has been pointed out before there is a stunning illogicality in those statements: if the rules are actually made by the MSC then the FIA should recognise the MSC as the governing body not the MSA. Unless the FIA, like me, cannot distinguish between them. :rofl:
Whatever, if MSC/MSA really cared about club motorsport they could exert a lot of influence to achieve less meetings/championships/races and fuller grids.
:flog:

Totally agree. The problem is that the MSC is a toothless animal in respect to allowing championship permits etc...

The problem is that there are far too many championships. As fast as one dies due to lack of interest, another one jumps into it's place.

There's also nothing stopping you from running a "series" - ie non-championship. Britcar was exactly that until 2007 when it gained Championship status, and in my opinion, it's no better for it.
However, it does encourage the pot hunters in, rather than the people who just wanted to race for the sake of racing.

What you can say is, with Britcar (other than Britsports) is that they achieve very full grids.

My thoughts are well known, we should be using the Blue Book for our formulae, and then run then regionally, with national finals.
Run the season as September to August, then you can have your "Finals" in the summer when people will come out to watch.

And run stuff that people want to see, not people (drivers with a whim) want to race.

Otherwise, you are indeed :flog:

My thoughts are well known, we should be using the Blue Book for our formulae, and then run then regionally, with national finals.
Run the season as September to August, then you can have your "Finals" in the summer when people will come out to watch.

Abso..bl00dy..lutely!

Thta's a very kind offer - is it just for me or is it written down somewhere for all to see ?
Nothing to do with kindness David and definitely not just for you. It is part of our philosophy of letting folks try before they buy or to take in the occasional race in TTRS.
Mind you, not in the car in your avatar :)

Yes, it's written down. You'll find it on our site under About and FAQ's.

[QUOTE=johnw]......It is part of our philosophy of letting folks try before they buy or to take in the occasional race in TTRS.
>>>>cool, thanks
Mind you, not in the car in your avatar :)
>>>>no probs, I'm prepping a saloon at the mo...

Just over a week's wages I think it costs me. £200-300 entry fees, plus £100 odds n' sods.

Blimey if £300 is a weeks wages Crofty with respect fella I think I would find another sport!

2008 will be my first race season, I'm 25 years of age, I'm using my own income to build and run my own team where the car prep alone is in the 20k regions, then each race could amount to £1k lest we forget any form of testing.

Fortunately, at my age, I don't have my own family so my money is 'disposable' income.

It's a small fortune but the way I look at it is, you live once, do what makes you happy.

Its starts getting a bit harder when you have three kids in tow, I carried on racing but to be honest it was selfish and I think the family probably suffered a little as a result, one of the reasons I took an 8 odd year break from it all.

Blimey if £300 is a weeks wages Crofty with respect fella I think I would find another sport!Al £200 to £300 plus £100 comes to possibly more than £300 and is around what I earn, don't knock it though as we can't all be wealthy entrepreneurs.

Its starts getting a bit harder when you have three kids in tow, I carried on racing but to be honest it was selfish and I think the family probably suffered a little as a result, one of the reasons I took an 8 odd year break from it all.

An 8 year break from the family - excellent!

Al £200 to £300 plus £100 comes to possibly more than £300 and is around what I earn, don't knock it though as we can't all be wealthy entrepreneurs.
Not knocking it but it sounded to me like £300 was his wages and he did the lot plus on a weekends racing which is OK if you have no other overheads but if you are renting a flat etc I would have thought out of your 300 quid you would not end up with much change to live on.

Come on why kid ourselves, this is no longer a sport for the average wage earner if it ever has been. I am not particularly wealthy BTW although I do OK its just I have the property etc and its all paid for, my kids are adults and my overheads low. Its a sad fact I guess that in the same way a young guy would appreciate a sports car more than a old fart like me he would (a) struggle insuring it and (b) paying for it then when you get to the age that you can you don't want it, bit like racing I guess and why there are still some old guys still doing it where as lets be honest any younger man should be head and shoulders quicker. BTW if I had to pay to have my car prepared I would not be doing it and am fortunate to have the knowledge and skills to do it, a nice big workshop at home and lots of tools and equipment and that I think is an important factor as when I was a kid I was always tearing something apart and fixing it, that does not seem to happen these days.

Al,Will you be at Snotterton this weekend then!

I may go and watch if I can scrounge some passes but will not be racing unfortunately as I had one setback too many.

Even as a wee bear at just 25 years of age I earn twice the national average, yet even I am finding that shelling out £2-3k a month just to keep the car rolling (in terms of prep work) is a serious commitment!

It truely isn't a poor mans 'game'.

I'm just thankful I secured a 50/50 split sponsor for the engine, that has cut another £4k out of the budget which means more money to spend elsewhere.

Exactly and I could not afford that hence doing it myself or not doing it at all.

No offence taken Al, Yeah, I get about £325 a week after tax, and usually get a race at the end of the month. I do rent a flat with a mate, so basically it's all my "me" money on racing, plus a little help with the fuel from mum and dad. Got no kids, etc, and I'd rather look back on life and regret the things I did, rather than the things I didn't.

(Or as I'm fond of saying:

"At the end of this life Sir, I shall be dead, and I intend to earn that rest."):)

I'm a Project Manager, I don't really know how to use my hands! :D

I have done a little of the work myself, but I must say it's very basis stripping, painting, wiring and basic mechanics... I guess every little helps!

Get stuck in Ed you will be surprised how quickly you will learn the basics. And Crofty more power to you mate as its a clever man who dies owing a million not the one who leaves a million! Now to get busy spending my daughters inheritance. :-)

EdL if it's any help or consolation I'm a project manager who can use his hands, as long as I keep it simple and restrict myself to Spridgets which I've played with for 30 years. I'm completely self-taught and built my race car up from scratch a couple of years ago, didn't start racing until the wrong side of 50. Like Al I too can only afford to race now the family is grown up and self-sufficient.

Wrong side of 50? I think it is the RIGHT SIDE OF 50... ;)

Get stuck in Ed you will be surprised how quickly you will learn the basics. And Crofty more power to you mate as its a clever man who dies owing a million not the one who leaves a million! Now to get busy spending my daughters inheritance. :-)

Well to be honest I'm a bright chap, I can grasp and work with the theories of engineering, suspension, aero etc. In fact I'm designing the car myself to what anyone would consider a 'high specification', I'm no race engineer but I'm learning.

I find the dynamics of the chassis highly interesting, I also take pleasure in doing the 3D models (on paper) and all the calculations associated with them. A bit geeky perhaps? :D

I'm spec-ing custom 2-way dampers and bodies with remote resevoirs, at £2,500 a set I just hope my maths are right!! :)

It's a learning curve but one I find wholely interesting, the problem comes when I'm stood looking at my naked chassis (I mean the car) and I've got to remove 100+ wires from the loom and wrestle the heater matrix out of the cab and from a very confined engine bay (even in the big Accord).

Fortunately I've a gaggle of volunteers (I run the European Accord Type R club) who are offering their services for a bit of beer money, so all the spannering can/should be taken care of - fingers crossed.

It's a huge task but one I'm thouroughly excited about!

Ed, what series are you looking at doing? Have a look at the Classic Sports Car Club's "Tin Tops" series - Good track time and value for money (30 min practice & 40 min races), a good friendly club, good racing and we usually get Pit garages. There are a few other Honda Type Rs that play in it too.

Ed, what series are you looking at doing? Have a look at the Classic Sports Car Club's "Tin Tops" series - Good track time and value for money (30 min practice & 40 min races), a good friendly club, good racing and we usually get Pit garages. There are a few other Honda Type Rs that play in it too.

I was looking at the Nippon Challenge, all Japanese event and being it's first year needs support.

Naturally I'm open to doing a number of events in the first year to get a feel for everything, I was even looking at doing the Britcar Enduro at Silverstone.

Just looking at the tin tops, you only go up to 2.0l? I'm a 2.2 N/A! :(

How do I get in the invitation class? ;)

Ed, if you contact the Tin Tops Co-ordinator, Tony Rushforth, and the Chairperson, Sarah Hutchinson, with a request they will help you out. Their e-mail addresses are on the CSCC web site. You could also try the CSCC's "Future Classics" series where I am sure that the car would be competitive against some bigger engined (but less powerful?) opposition in the 3 litre to 3 litre class.

Yeah that might be an idea as looking at last years Tin Top results I'd in theory be a few seconds quicker than the quickest pol.

Thanks for the heads up, I'll look at the future classics as less power doesn't have to mean slower. :)

Yeah that might be an idea as looking at last years Tin Top results I'd in theory be a few seconds quicker than the quickest pol.

Thanks for the heads up, I'll look at the future classics as less power doesn't have to mean slower. :)

You'll find that the Type R will probably have more power than the Porsche 944s, Alfa GTVs, and BMWs that you'll be racing against in that class & probably the same amount of power or maybe still more, than the Rover Tomcat.

You'll find that the Type R will probably have more power than the Porsche 944s, Alfa GTVs, and BMWs that you'll be racing against in that class & probably the same amount of power or maybe still more, than the Rover Tomcat.

My car,

Standard - 210hp/162lb tq (Honda figures)
Stock block tune (reputable works team) - 250hp/185lb

My car,

Standard - 210hp/162lb tq (Honda figures)
Stock block tune (reputable works team) - 250hp/185lb

Really not sure of the figures so no doubt I'll be shot down but I would have thought that 2.5 944s would have about 160 Bhp in PCGB Club Series trim and about 180-190 in Porsche Open trim, the GTV6 will probably be not much more than 200 and the Rover Tomcats awill be about 220 Bhp unless they have had some serious work done to them.

The lap times for the "Future Classics" cars at Snetterton were remarkably similar to the "Tin Tops" times. Your car will be competitive, I'm sure. Its all down to the driver at this level anyway!

The project I manage albiet currently not extraordinarily well it has to be said is trying to keep two Camaros running, niether are at the moment!

Another thing I have never understood, 2nd or even 3rd race on the day entry fees. Surely once the first entry has been paid and the insurance fee any extra entry fee that could be extracted from the driver how ever small would be a direct cash bonus for the organising club as they are hiring the track how ever many (or few) enter a particular race. I know a lot of clubs will give a discount but I am talking a serious discount maybe as low as £50 for a 2nd race surely it would be better to get more cars on the grid and take a few extra fifty quids than just running a handful of cars as everything is in place and paid for so would just require a tad more office work for the money.

Well today has seriously made me consider packing it all in. For just shy of £200 I got 7 minutes racing at Brands today. Why, because someone chucked his car into the kitty litter just before Druids and conveniently we were allowed to pass for two laps under yellows before the race was stopped. This managed to put it one lap over half way and the organisers were able to declare it a race. It is also a mystery why in every other race today the safety car was deployed for similar incidents.
When these people stop treating us like something they would like to scrape off their shoes British club racing may start to pick up, but somehow I don't think that will ever happen.

What a sad state club racing has got itself into. :(

I personally think the ARDS should be harder and require tuition prior to taking it, weed out the bad drivers, improve the scene.

Although a little off topic,I really do not think that would help much,there is no control over a driver once he has behaved himself impecably on the day of his ARDs test. One thing I do think should be compusory is for it to be part of the test for attending a meeting as a Marshal,just to get an idea on what goes on behind the scene's when someone does have an off!,perhaps they would then realise the value of thier track time.

Well today has seriously made me consider packing it all in. For just shy of £200 I got 7 minutes racing at Brands today. Why, because someone chucked his car into the kitty litter just before Druids and conveniently we were allowed to pass for two laps under yellows before the race was stopped. This managed to put it one lap over half way and the organisers were able to declare it a race. It is also a mystery why in every other race today the safety car was deployed for similar incidents.
When these people stop treating us like something they would like to scrape off their shoes British club racing may start to pick up, but somehow I don't think that will ever happen.

What a sad state club racing has got itself into. :(

I appreciate that you are hacked off but I would argue that the vast vast majority of people that have raced with this particular club (both from the club's own championships and guests) have been usually been nothing less than very impressed with how well organised their meetings are and how competitor focused they are - far more so than the other major clubs. I certainly don't think that your one race represents a wider sad state of club racing and, in contrast, would suggest that this particular club is a fine example of how to appeal to the club racer. Why not ring the club and ask to discuss it, or e-mail your concerns direct to them.

Anyway, this is in danger of getting of topic and there are other threads elsewhere discussing the very same race & the very same issue.

Well today has seriously made me consider packing it all in. For just shy of £200 I got 7 minutes racing at Brands today. Why, because someone chucked his car into the kitty litter just before Druids and conveniently we were allowed to pass for two laps under yellows before the race was stopped.

What a sad state club racing has got itself into. :(

Hi,

Didn't see your race so difficult to comment, but I would say that the actual running of the racing per se didn't seem so disparate from what I've seen elsewhere. I ran in two TTRS races and the Future Classics.

Appreciate you got the thick end of a bad deal, and to be honest I was aware our practice was called short post an off as they were trying to claw back time after other incidents.

Under the circumstances though I didn't have a problem with that, indeed it's normal practice, and by way of example I seem to recall qualifying for 3 laps behind a safety car on a very optimistic programme, before all of us being sent home due to curfew a few years ago with another club. All with only a limited refund.

Perhaps a little officious and error prone off-track in places, but I can assure you - I've seen a Whole Lot Worse...

S.

Racing might be expensive but the SMRC meeting I competed in at Knockhill yesterday had record entries apparently.

Another thing I have never understood, 2nd or even 3rd race on the day entry fees. Surely once the first entry has been paid and the insurance fee any extra entry fee that could be extracted from the driver how ever small would be a direct cash bonus for the organising club as they are hiring the track how ever many (or few) enter a particular race. I know a lot of clubs will give a discount but I am talking a serious discount maybe as low as £50 for a 2nd race surely it would be better to get more cars on the grid and take a few extra fifty quids than just running a handful of cars as everything is in place and paid for so would just require a tad more office work for the money.
one of the dmn boys wanted to enter another race at snetterton at the weekend ,the race wasnt full and could have done with a few more cars to make it more of a show as it was GREAT AND BRITISH but he was told that he could not enter as you need to do it at least 7 days before the meeting as per the blue book apparently.......some people ,some rules hey!!!!!!!!

That is the key to whats wrong over here, a total lack of flexibility. I dont know whos at fault probably FIA or MSA daft rule but its just plain silly. Years ago the club I raced with went over to Mondello Park in Ireland and the organisers on the day asked the guys if they wanted a FoC race just to make the numbers up, that is the way to do it especially as it was televised!

Two chances of getting that over here now Al...especially with TV coverage. I have heard of a particular series that won't let anyone bar paid up class members run in thier race at a TV event. No guest membership for the guys that only do one off events, its all (around €600) or nothing. It would be understandable if they had a full grid of members but they don't. Very short sighted.

one of the dmn boys wanted to enter another race at snetterton at the weekend ,the race wasnt full and could have done with a few more cars to make it more of a show as it was GREAT AND BRITISH but he was told that he could not enter as you need to do it at least 7 days before the meeting as per the blue book apparently.......some people ,some rules hey!!!!!!!!I assume that was the BARC meeting although it doesn't sound like them at all. At Lydden they will sometimes let you enter while the grid is still forming up in assembly but maybe they had a doctor's receptionist organising it at the weekend ;)

Yes I must say BARC are usually reasonable. Podd it was a long time ago in a meeting sponsored by Irish Telecom who paid a lot of the expenses including a slice of the ferry as I recollect, like a fool I did not go (or was it having to bring up 3 kids at the time and being a bit skint) but by all accounts it was a blinding weekend, I have a video of the TV coverage somewhere and the commentator was really off on one, made Murray sound really tame.

I am still here, hello. I got bored by the constant get at Richard time.

There is a novice who has just joined the SMRC and has decided to buy himself a brand new Lamborghini Gallardo Super Leggra as his 1st race car! He is racing against home built kit cars!

There is a novice who has just joined the SMRC and has decided to buy himself a brand new Lamborghini Gallardo Super Leggra as his 1st race car! He is racing against home built kit cars!


As far as I know he wasn't a novice to competitive motorsport though.

Does it matter anyway what he does with his money. If I could afford one I'd probably do the same.

And a lot more satisfaction for the kit car owners when and if they beat him.

There is a novice who has just joined the SMRC and has decided to buy himself a brand new Lamborghini Gallardo Super Leggra as his 1st race car! He is racing against home built kit cars!

Whats his name Gordon Brown!!! :rofl:

Reliy plans track day car for amature racers

http://automotive.speedtv.com/articl...track-day-car/ (http://automotive.speedtv.com/article/riley-technologies-plans-track-day-car/)

As far as I know he wasn't a novice to competitive motorsport though.

Does it matter anyway what he does with his money. If I could afford one I'd probably do the same.


Doesn't really matter if he is a supposedly a champion stock car racer, in the eyes of the MSA he needed to do his ARDS test and have a novice square on the back. With that car he should be able to walk the race. Yes, even AG's Focus.

I wouldn't, I'd buy something that I could race somewhere else not soley at KH.

Reliy plans track day car for amature racers

http://automotive.speedtv.com/articl...track-day-car/ (http://automotive.speedtv.com/article/riley-technologies-plans-track-day-car/)

I want one, but it'd only be 2nd best to a British built car! ;)

Knowing the Americans though, it'll be reasonably priced for that style of car. Worth the wait, I think!

I wouldn't, I'd buy something that I could race somewhere else not soley at KH.


Why does buying a Lambo mean you have to race it solely at Knockhill?

Why does buying a Lambo mean you have to race it solely at Knockhill?

It doesn't, but to buy such a big expensive car and run it with "the rest" seems a bit of a waste. He only did his ARDS last week!

What does it matter though at the end of the day he is on a no win situation. If he walks it it will be 'Old moneybags anyone can do that if they had his clout' if he loses it will be 'Look at that ****er all that car and money and he still can't win'.

BTW in the meantime at least the crowd will get to see something a bit special.

What does it matter though at the end of the day he is on a no win situation. If he walks it it will be 'Old moneybags anyone can do that if they had his clout' if he loses it will be 'Look at that ****er all that car and money and he still can't win'.

BTW in the meantime at least the crowd will get to see something a bit special.


I agree, whole heartedly with you Al!

It has always been in motor racing, money doesn't bring you success. Unless you or your Dad bankrolls the team which is at the top of the timing sheet/screen.

I prefer laughing at them when they can't drive their cars.

A guy, brought a F360 Challenge car into our race a few seasons ago, when I was trundling round in my fiesta at the back, he spun it coming out of the hairpin and it made my year! I could say I past a racing Ferrari with my fiesta! Anyway at the start of the race he was on pole beside a Porsche GT2 and a Sierra Cosworth was in 3rd. When the red went off, they all started apart from the Ferrari, he was waiting for the green! The Cosworth expected the Ferrari to be gone before he got moving, but he hadn't, the Fezza had a wrecked bumper and the cross member bent by this Cossie.

They laughed when they said the damage to the Ferrari would probably cost more than the cosworth was worth.

I wouldn't worry too much about what other people are doing. I'd enjoy what you're doing and not waste time bemoaning what you don't have.

This reminds me of a mate of a mate that used to run in the Italian Intermarque I think it was, you know the one mainly little Fiats and stuff, anyhow this guy raced an absolutely state of the art DeTomaso midengine rocketship with Yankee V8 power and every meeting used to absolutely desimate the field lapping most cars several times, could never see the sense myself but each to their own and I often wondered what on earth was Italian about an American Ford V8!

Al, that's a big problem when a race is 10 laps long - it means that me, lapped twice, doesn't get my money's worth. If the race is 15 minutes, we all get the same amount of track time, but the pothunters get more laps. No problem. But if they go so fast as to disrupt my value they should be asked to move on.

Which is presumably why lots of races are now on time.

This reminds me of a mate of a mate that used to run in the Italian Intermarque I think it was, you know the one mainly little Fiats and stuff, anyhow this guy raced an absolutely state of the art DeTomaso midengine rocketship with Yankee V8 power and every meeting used to absolutely desimate the field lapping most cars several times, could never see the sense myself but each to their own and I often wondered what on earth was Italian about an American Ford V8!

Hmmm, but in 2002, Neil Smith won the Championship (inc an outright win in th wet IIRC) in 1372 Fiat Uno.

Which is presumably why lots of races are now on time.
I think that it's more to do with maintaining timetables in variable weather.

There's a race with Masters at Donington on Monday. £135.00, 15 mins practice and 20mins racing. You need a tin top 70 on D84s or a pre 66 Tin Top or GT/Sportscar on M or Ls.

I think that it's more to do with maintaining timetables in variable weather.

So do I TBQH but was trying to be nice for once.

Keep trying :)

Hmmm, but in 2002, Neil Smith won the Championship (inc an outright win in th wet IIRC) in 1372 Fiat Uno.This was way before then, car was probably banned if they had any sense!

Whats his name Gordon Brown!!! :rofl:

Berman?

This reminds me of a mate of a mate that used to run in the Italian Intermarque I think it was, you know the one mainly little Fiats and stuff, anyhow this guy raced an absolutely state of the art DeTomaso midengine rocketship with Yankee V8 power and every meeting used to absolutely desimate the field lapping most cars several times, could never see the sense myself but each to their own and I often wondered what on earth was Italian about an American Ford V8!

The venerable Freddie Moss in the DeTomato Mangusa (Monster).

Oh yesssss!

The venerable Freddie Moss in the DeTomato Mangusa (Monster).

Oh yesssss!
Christ! Fred Moss. I used to do the same meetings as him about 20 years ago. He used to drive the car to the meetings loaded to the roof with tools/wheels etc, you could say he was a bit cramped up.

Berman?You are not talking about my old mate Peugeot Paul are you Rob? He had about 6 of the ruddy things in identical pairs (I think it was to fool his missus or something [allegedly] not sure though , you know the sort of thing 'No of course I am not going racing dear, check in the garage you will see the car in there':rofl: ) and I used to supply him graphics by the shed load.

You are not talking about my old mate Peugeot Paul are you Rob? He had about 6 of the ruddy things in identical pairs (I think it was to fool his missus or something [allegedly] not sure though , you know the sort of thing 'No of course I am not going racing dear, check in the garage you will see the car in there':rofl: ) and I used to supply him graphics by the shed load.
An infamous mate of mine had 3 Rover P5s with the same reg number.
Cheap motoring 1 MOT /1 insurance / 1 road tax !

An infamous mate of mine had 3 Rover P5s with the same reg number.
Cheap motoring 1 MOT /1 insurance / 1 road tax !

And he would jus switch the Lic Plate depending on which car he was driving?

How did he drive the three at once though Gordon?

And he would jus switch the Lic Plate depending on which car he was driving?
No he actually had all 3 cars plated all the time ! and as that man up the country said he can't drive three at once.
Mind you another mate and his brother had two identical motorcycles in the 60s and did the same. One lived near me and his brother was going to Liverpool University.

Al stop getting us off thread :laugh:

What are the tax implications of 'sponsoring' your own car?

If my ltd company were to sponsor my car would that income be offset in anyway i.e. it wouldn't be paid as a salary so would it be taxed?

Don't think it will work anymore Ed it used to but its my understanding they put the kybosh on it, ask your accountant.

http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=97694&highlight=sponsoring+yourself
Ed This might help as we have looked at it before.

Thanks. :)

Think car entries going up fast. Just done my first cycling TT of the year, ruddy entry fee has tripled. Grump grump grump.

Still, it's only gone up from 50p to £1.50 AND we race on public roads! :laugh:

Hey and I thought since Livigstone came in the whole of the UK was a cycle heaven!
Crits are the same here but rough play cost me a frame... seriously thinking steel is better for crashing than carbon fibre!

Re the De Tomaso, some people want to be he biggest fish in the pond, what they do not realise is that every one knows they are not winning on talent. I have always been a class driver, no money for out right, but my greatest satisfaction has been when I had my old Suzuki GTi and I use to drive circles around people in the wet, they all said it was the car... still drive circles in my new car which is a pig of a chassis!