Mallory Park

Was anyone there today? I was really disappointed it got cancelled early, but does anyone know how the driver is?

I waas not there, but could yopu give us more info?

Yes please tell.. I know there were Stock and Hot Hatches, and also the Locosts. If my car was a bit better, I would normally be running with the Hot Hatches..

If there was a big accident - I'm betting it involved a Stock Hatch?

Hi Guys
I'm not sure if this information is accurate as yet but I believe sadly the driver involved has died.
I think it was a yellow and black flag infringement in the Caterham race. Will probably recieve a full report tomorrow.
In my persoanal opinion the yellow blag quatered flag should be dropped as it has been by the BARC.

Originally posted by Tony Harman

I think it was a yellow and black flag infringement in the Caterham race. Will probably recieve a full report tomorrow.
In my persoanal opinion the yellow blag quatered flag should be dropped as it has been by the BARC.

Have the BARC banned it? I didn't know. Any more news about this?

Hi Peter, I was told last night that the BARC have "dropped" the use of the yellow / black quatered flag because of too many dangerous situations arising. They will either stop a race with Red flags or neutrlaise with a pace car if necessary. Although the Y/Bqtr flag has been around a few years now people just seem to ignore it and carry on racing. From what I know of the Mallory incident the only person who slowed was the race leader.

Nic Fairman was killed as he tried to avoid another incident which occurred at the start line due to the black / yellow flag being deployed. No other details than that so far.

A tragic incident, and it's about time that the drivers and officals in this country get it's use sorted out. Because generally I've been appalled at the events I've been to with some drivers disreagrding it completely and some officals not deploying or retracting the flags at the correct time manner.. It should work, but hasn't done so far and if a driver has lost his life because of this.. well its just dreadful.

For the uninitiated.

The sole reason for the Black/Yellow flag was to ensure that organising clubs would not lose money due to cancelled races. It is displayed as a replacement for a safety car and it means that the lead driver has to slow down to a safe pace and he becomes the "safety car".

This means that a race can continue to the end thereby obviating excessive delays and allowing the organisers to keep to a programme.

I find this tragic occurrence particularly sad because essentially the driver died because the organisers wanted to keep their profits.

Originally posted by Peter Mallett


I find this tragic occurrence particularly sad because essentially the driver died because the organisers wanted to keep their profits.

Another way of looking at it is he died due to fellow competitors not observing and/or heeding the signals shown by officials.

The system should work, and should stop many unnecessary race stoppages. I agree with Dan that its not always well used by officials, but competitors have to shoulder up for some of the blame too.

I have to agree with Marshal on this, there is no blame for something like this but it is the competitors responsibility to observe the flags in all cases. However in the case of the Black / Yellow the race leader is supposed to slow down first, the rest of the pack isn't supposed to slow until it reaches the race leader, effectively the same as a pace car. Also was the Black / Yellow only shown at the start line ?

Originally posted by Peter Mallett

I find this tragic occurrence particularly sad because essentially the driver died because the organisers wanted to keep their profits.

I'm not sure I agree Pete, we're talking about the 750 M/C here and I know the CofC's. Of all the clubs I think the 750M/C puts the competitor before profits. That is only looked at after the event.

I don't think the flag works, it has been around a while and always seems to promote contoversy when used, this sad inccident will certainly highlight the situation and a decision has to be made. I think we should use pace cars if necessary, I can't see there is extra cost in that.

You're right Tony, blame is an entirely innappropriate word to use in this situation, I really should know better.

As for a pace car, the three things you need are,

A car
Some lights and stickers to identify it
A driver with the appropriate racing licence to drive it

So there shouldn't be much cost there, but I wonder if it would materially help, as I seem to recall some classes have run into each other when the pace car comes out, just as much as they have with the black and yellows.

'course the the other answer - and probably the best - is signal lights all round the circuit, then everybody gets to see them and slow immediately - then form up the grid behind the leader before the restart. But that costs money - and I can't see Octagon forking out (no one else owns UK circuits now do they....)

At the FIA GT meeting at Silverstone we did employ a "full course yellow" during the qualifying sessions, where a waved yellow was displayed at evey point and all drivers had to slow to "around 50 mph", while there were double yellows at the scene of the incident. Unfortunately for this to work you need a radio at each flag point, which comes back to Tony's point about investment.

You mean you guys don't have any radios !!! - how are you supposed to communicate with Race Control - Semaphore with Oil flags !
I always new you were a great bunch but working under those conditions isn't on - blimey you've got enough problems with us lot!

Usually work ok just with telephones - that's if the rabbits haven't eaten through the line..

I have nop problem with the system of flags, if it's done properly and everyone knows what's going on.. they shouldn't be used where a race stop is appropriate, but only where it's possibe to shift a car within the space of a couple of laps and the race can get going again quickly (and the race can get extra laps to make up for the laps lost). I've certainly worked on the track under such conditions and have felt protected and hence the incident was quickly dealt with.. that's how it should be done.

But I've seen the confusion when it's not done properly, and in the case of this tragic caterham race - it creates a more dangerous situation.

Well, I still maintain my point about the origination of the system. Its the circuits that charge the clubs for the day, irrespective of races run. And if you don't complete a third of the race distance (I think) the club has to pay some money back to the competitor. We've had some races run for 60 to eighty percent of their distance under these flags.

However Marshal raised a valid point and particularly in this case. How can "an incident" occur on the start line if all the cars are travelling slowly? Were they playing catch up and going too fast? If they were racing then was the flag displayed all around the circuit? Visibility at Mallory is pretty good so I wouldn't buy an "I saw no flags" excuse.

Originally posted by Tony Harman
You mean you guys don't have any radios !!! - how are you supposed to communicate with Race Control - Semaphore with Oil flags !
I always new you were a great bunch but working under those conditions isn't on - blimey you've got enough problems with us lot!

As Dan said the observers points have phones, but at most circuits at least some of the flag points aren't at the same position as the observers points, so for the full course yellow system to work then all the flag points would need a radio or a phone too.

Although nothing official has been released yet it would seem that this incident may not have occured as a result of the Yellow / Blacks coming out.
I have only encountered these flags once at Brands a couple of years ago, the Y/B was only shown at the start line, elsewhere there were yellows. Dan / Marshal - do all posts have the Yellow / Black flag ?, what is the normal sequence of events ?

The y/b flag is displayed first at the startline, and then at all the points round the circuit, when the period is over a green is waved at the startline end then displayed at all the points round the circuit, travelling in the direction of traffic. So yes, every post should have its own black and yellow (they're bloody huge too!).

So,

Was this incident the cause of the Y/B flag period?

The way it is supposed to work is as follows.

The BY is shown to the leader at the start finish line.
The leader slows down to 'about 50mph'and acts as a pace car - as the rest of the cars reach reach the back of the train they are supposed to maintain station behind the train.
The BY is shown at each flag point around the circuit in the direction of travel - i.e. it should be propogated round the circuit ahead of the lead car.

Once the obstruction is cleared the BY is withdrawn at the start line and a green flag is waved, the withdrawal of the BY is propogated round the circuit ahead of the cars.

The objective is to get the cars all lined up in a single pack travelling at a slow enough pace to give the marshals time to clear the incident.

It should work exactly the same as a safety car but has a few advantages.

It is cheaper - doesn't need a car/lights and licensed driver and experienced on-board observer - some small (and not so small!) meetings struggle to man the circuit without additional manpower impositions.

Safety cars have been known to break down...

The safety car has to join the track at an appropriate point - normally the pit lane exit - this can be a problem at certain circuits where the pit exit is a distance away from the start line - with the result that they miss the leading car.

Both methods suffer from the same problem - when, as the BY/Safety car first comes out, the leader slows on seeing the flag/car but the pack behind hasn't reached the start-line and hence hasnt seen any flags/lights etc.

As for full course yellows -
Phones will not work - one or two people in race control cannot communicate simultainiously with 20 plus flag points.

Radios - great but can get interferance - Towcester Taxis are a favourite at Silverstone...

Lights - Can have problems - have known lights at Donington to come on by themselves - or not work when required.

Most of time the BY seems to work but it does rely in the competitors commonsence and co-operation - not always in evidence when the adrenalin is flowing.

Not sure - there seem to be a number of stories circulating at the moment, the person I know who was there cannot say anything as they were offciating at the meeting.

Marshal - seems t me that full course yellows would have the same effect - No ?

Interesting - Flagman's post and mine crossed over in mid - flow
Yep you're absolutley right on how it should work and it really is down to the drivers to make it work properly.
The problem I've seen with it are two fold.
1) The way it should work - When the leader slows down the other cars don't and are still travelling at racing speed which can be dangerous when they arrive at an incident although no doubt there would be waved yellows.
2) What seems to happen - when I've seen it used is that not only the leader slows down but some other drivers do too so you end up with groups which means it can take ages to get the desired single train - often that is not achieved, which reduces the desired effect.

Originally posted by Flagman

Most of time the BY seems to work but it does rely in the competitors commonsence and co-operation - not always in evidence when the adrenalin is flowing.

Not sure about BY but you have a point about yellows. I generally make a big effort to slow as soon as I see one but I often notice how fast my opposition pulls away whilst passing the incident.;)

Which leads us neatly back to why something is required to slow the whole field down so cars can be moved from dangerous positions quickly and safely.

Yes, but the point is that we are only kept racing under full yellows, safety car etc. because if a race is stopped it throws the schedule out and if a race is cancelled later in the day, the organising club loses money.

Personally, if the postion/conditions require a full course yellow, or a safety car during a ten or fifteen lap club race then red flag it.;)

So would you be happier if one meeting in 5 the programme wasn't finished? Besides if the organising clubs lose money, its going to you who end up paying in the long run. I agree with Flagman thet b/y should be a good solution, people do slow down quickly enough for reds (generally)so the reaction to y/b should be the same.

Maybe this tragic incident will prompt a proper debate on how to manage these difficult situation. Stopping the race isn't really satifactory as we'd never finsih programmes.

Also Peter, as you are rightly concerned about the amount of race lost during the y/b period (as are we as officials, we just want to see racing too). The best way to minimise this time is to persuade hoever is leading to go slower. The more time each y/b lap takes the more time you give us to clear up the mess, so the less number of laps of the race proper are lost ;) or as Dan suggested, have y/b laps not count to the race total.

I can't agree with just red flagging every large incident, which some may only take 30 seconds to clear but are in a dangerous position. Stopping, clearing up and then starting a race after a red flag can easily take half an hour.. and especially if some circuits stick to the 5 minute count down timing.. I can't see the public wanting that, and I don't watn to drag out the day into the early evening.

Black and yellows should work, should save time and give the drivers (who have paid plenty of cash for the priviledge) to race for all of their number of allocated laps whilst improving safety for all involved.

We've had one incident at Combe this year, where a rescue vehicle was on the circuit under waved yellow flag conditions - did the leaders slow down, no.. they were all chucked out. Then at Thruxton last year, whilst treating a driver stuck in a F1 car out the back of the circuit (150+ mph in a F1, the leaders didn't slow down (in fact 2 almost lost it) and what happened - absolutley nothing.. Waved yellows mean - you have to be able to stop as the circuit may be blocked!! Until drivers do this, or are forced to do this - you need the safety provided by B/Y flags.

I am talking here about club racing. No we don't want to pay extra and why should we. But I for one don't want to see marshals or anyone else hurt. Whilst in theory the B/Y flag should work, it doesn't because we're not talking about professionals, we're talking about amateurs.

Still its nice to note that you acknowledge my point. (BTW I only made it because it was the official reason for making us run under the B/Y flag for most of a race at Brands some time ago).

Lights are used at Silverstone and Spa to my knowledge and they work quite well.

So I would maintain my position and repeat that if the situation is that dangerous, they should stop the race. Otherwise its waved yellows until the situation is clear. Or the marshal's arm falls off!!!!

Peter

Every competitor gets a copy of the Blue Book each year so ought to know the regs - When was the last time most of them actually read it?

Black/yellow flag regulations trend to get sent out regularly in competitors final instructions - again - how many read them ?

Local waved yellows don't allow the field to bunch up so you do not get a big enough gap to move a stranded car - the B/Y should enable this.

Too many red flags in a day inevitably means that someone doesn't get a race - especially at tracks with a curfew (Oulton/Mallory/Croft) - you might get part of your entry fee back but you have still spent maney on travelling etc.

Even where there is no curfew the competitor still suffers in the long run, as many marshals object to regular late ending meetings and don't bother doing that circuit again - Donington being a good example. Its ok for competitors - you can go home as soon as your race is over - marshals are there until the end - and have probably been there since well before you arrived. Too many 14 to 15 hours days, from getting up to getting home, eventually takes its toll (snoore)

Umm,

I'm actually not disagreeing with you in principle but I must say its niave, if not a little negative to use the "its in the book so you will work to it" approach. Its like using the courts to manage a situation rather than resolve an issue.

I stress, that I'm talking club events which are never allowed to over-run anyway.

So what's the answer Peter? i think as Dan and Flagman above have said, from an organisational point of view you can't just stop every race where you have a proble (practice is easier as you don't have to go through the starting rigmarole) you are saying its unworkable for club racers to comply with the current black and yellows - if that is the case how are lights going to be an improvement - so what do we do? The point I was trying to make above is by and large people manage to back off for red flags without driving into each other, why doesn't it work for black and yellows? I'm not trying to be negative but I'm trying to get a better understanding of your viewpoint, as I can't currently think of other workable solutions.

And yes, I think we're all talking about club racing too, which by and large we enjoy much more than the profesional alternatives.

Yes - I guess it may be niave to believe that as every competitor has signed a (probably legally binding) agreement that they have read and understood the regulations under which the meeting is to take place - that they would then try to ensure that they, and their fellow competitors abide by those rules.

Perhaps its a question of better driver education - and has to start at grass roots level - after all its your money that you are spending - if you don't get a race then don't complain.

Maybe I am being negative - perhaps 30 years of 30-50 days marshaling are beginning to have an effect - I must admit its gets harder to get the enthusiasm to get out of bed each Saturday/Sunday.

Very sad news this has been. From reading Autosport I have gathered a bit more, and it makes it even more tragic.

"Eye witnesses reported that Simon Fairman and third-places Keith Dunn clashed wheels as race leader Steve Kelsey and second-placed Richard Ince braked to slow down for the black and yellow flag, launching Simon Fairman's car into the air.

Nic Fairman spun into the barriers at the foot of the bride - an area where the run-off narrows - while trying to avoid the crash ahead."

So does it appear that the first two drivers slowed down but third and fourth didn't? The fact that made it even more tragic - Simon Fairman, whose accident Nic crashed trying to avoid, was Nic's brother.

Terribly tragic indeed.

But it is important to understand what happened and correct that in the future.

The point about a legally binding contract is exactly why I suggest that as a "niave" (possibly the wrong word) approach. If somebody breaks a contract you sue them, but they've already committed the act. Therefore more and better education is the first step. The second would be more direct control of incidents and that means red flags.

BTW. I am a contracts manager by profession so I do know about contracts.

In this tragic case, I expect (my opinion as a racer only) the second and third cars were dicing and not watching for flags and especially a B/Y flag which actually is not that visible.

The flag position at Mallory, just after Devils elbow, is quite well sighted if you are not dicing. If you are then you not only have an eye on the mirrors but you also have a car which is probably understeering towards the barrier. It gets your attention more than looking for a flag.

My sincere condolences go to the family and friends of Nic Fairman.

Just to add to this rather sombre discussion:

At Snetterton last Sunday we had the CSCC 1 Hour, 2 driver race and we were informed that the Safety Car would be employed if necessary. Well the Gods weren't looking kindly at my Sunbeam and my co-driver spun the car into the middle of Norfolk at the 30 min driver change over time :-(
Dale (CotC) used his Vectra with lights to very effectively bring the cars round to a slow crocodile while they removed my car from the infield. All drivers were well behaved and it was a very controlled situation.
A black/orange flag situation probably wouldn't have worked in this scenaio as most folks weren't aware of who the lead driver was. The course car was a very obvious mobile indicator, aiding drivers.

Just my 2p worth.

Maybe that's the best way forward, to use a safety car.

And just to echo Peter's sentiment - best wishes to Nic Fairmans family and friends.

And thanks to you guys for an intesting and thought provoking discussion. It makes me think that opportunity for marshals and drivers to talk together should happen more often, but maybe places like here are the ideal place for it to happen.

Great debate but such an unfortunate reason to bring it to the fore. I thoroughly enjoyed reading the postings as they went up. Some very good input from all that took part.

Let's hope the best solution is implemented soon.

My thoughts also go to the driver's family and also to all those involved with the incident.

Can I put my 2p worth in having been on both sides the fence?

I know logistically contacting drivers by radio at a clubby is impossible, but it has always amazed me that in these situations the flags come out at the start line and go clockwise around the track, surely it would be better for all concerned if the flags go clockwise and anti-clockwise?

I only know what I read, but I would imagine at Mallory the B&Y flag came out at the start line and was deployed clockwise as the books says, I would imagine from what I have read that at this point the leaders and pack were probably at the Esses / Shaws part of the track, so that in effect, if "done by the book" the B&Y flag was in effect chasing after the drivers, by the sounds of it the first they all knew was as they got to the start line because the flags were still catching them up, had the flags gone anti-clockwise as well, it would have caught them on the exit of Shaws and it's not impossible that this accident would not have happened.

Maybe Marshall, you sound like an official (excuse me I'm new here), you could explain to me why the flags go clockwise and not anti & clockwise, as this seems the better option in most cases.

Having seen many accidents behind pace cars & B&Y flags, and been involved in one at Brands, I personally feel that this black and yellow flag should either be scrapped, or someone should consult the drivers on what they think, I know that when racing, I was not the only one to have this view.

As ever, it's a shame it takes a drivers death to get people talking and rules changing (hopefully).

Sorry to go on, but I could also bring up the subject of track safety, why are tracks allowed to have barriers comming in towards the track at such deep angles?

As much as I respect the MSA, John Symes and his crew (I presume he still runs the safety side), they and circuit owners really, have not got a clue when it comes to safety.

I don't mean to sound dis-respectful, and my best wishes go to all involved, but how long will it be before a car goes over the wall at Gerrards and down the, if I remember, 15 foot drop? Or how long will it be before a loose wheel goes over the fence along either the back or front streight and hit someone?

I'm sorry if I've offended anybody, but it makes me really angry to see un-necessary risks being taken by tracks, having been able to step back for a couple of years and look from a Safety point of view, so much can be done to improve people's chances at nearly all the tracks in the Country, and don't get me started on Lydden otherwise I'd be here all night.

When the B/Y was first introduced, some clubs did ask us to propogate it both ways round the circuit - however this was soon dropped as it resulted in eveyone slowing down, and hence not getting the desired result of grouping the cars up to give the marshals time to clear the incident.

It seems to me that there it makes no difference where the drivers first confront the B/Y flag - if the first car to see it slows down too quickly and those behind do not then you have the potential for the type of accident that happend at Mallory.

One advantage of the current system is that the first place the drivers see the B/Y is at the start/finish line rather than having it pop up at any point round the circuit.

The same type of accident can happen with a safety car - the F3's at Oulton Park this year for example.

I guess it is really a question of driver education - perhaps the wording for the B/Y should be changed to emphasise the need for the lead driver to gradually reduce the pace of the field rather than slow down to 50 mph.

Well, when I first started racing we were taught to stick our hands up to indicate to other cars that we were slowing. Obviously under ordinary yellows, this would not be practical or desirable. However it should be enfoirced under the B/Y flag system.

That said I've noticed over the last few years that the wave arm has fallen out of favour. But even in touring cars we should still use it.

>>Obviously under ordinary yellows, this would not be practical or
>>desirable. However it should be enfoirced under the B/Y flag system.

You try doing that in the middle of Gerrards, or Dingle Dell :)

Ah,

In think you missed my point. The B/Y flag is shown at the startline. The lead driver raises his/her arm and indicates the he/she is slowing. Not necessary under yellows because we all know what to do as soon as we see a yellow.

>>Not necessary under yellows because we all know
>>what to do as soon as we see a yellow.

No I got your point and remember being told that myself, what I'm saying is that in the middle of a corner, it isn't exactly safe or easy to lift your hand of the wheel to acknowledge the flags.

I used to at least make an effort to raise a hand or finger, but at Silverstore once I was in the position of being blinded by the car in front, he slowed and my choice was hit him, or overtake him, I chose to overtake and it was only because it was all caught on the CCTV that I didn't get any more than a simple ticking off, he CofC asked why I'd done it and hadn't slowed or acknowledged the flag, my answer was "what did you want me to do, raise my hand and hit him causing an even bigger accident or avoid an accident and keep the card under control?".

If you see a yellow or black and yellow say at the top of Paddock at Brands (it comes out just as you enter the braking zone), or middle of Gerrard you simply cannot immediately slow down, things have to be done in a sensible manner, rather than just jumping on the brakes, doing that or taking your hand off the wheel to acknowledge the flags is even more dangerous than not slowing down.

I'm only talking about a "small window of time / situation" which hardly ever happens, not the blatant "seen the flag two posts back but I'm ignoring it" attitude than happens so often.

This goes back to the good point made by flagman, that the responsibility of the leader is to slow in a gradual manner. The real problem is that in any slowing of a stream of cars, it is possible that the classic motorway chain reaction shunt can occur, where everyone back down the queue has to brake slightly harder.

Even taking Peter's point a little while back about stopping every race where there is a car in a dangerous position, this too can lead to people driving into each other (I was given the example of the leader slowing when he saw the red flag, which ended up with the 2nd place man parking on his roof in avoidance).

I've learnt a lot but I'm still looking for a better way.

Fully agree with you there - Imola F3000 this year was a prime example.

One of the reasons for only propogating the B/Y flag clockwise was to ensure that the first encounter would be on the start/finish - which at most circuits is on (reasonably) straight bit of track.

I admit that one or more cars can be unsighted from the flag so maybe what is needed is to fit flashing amber lights on the start gantry which are activated whilst the B/Y is out.

I agree about 'not jumping on the brakes' as soon as a flag is seen - again this is a case of the need for education and common sense - not only of drivers but also Observers and Senior Race officials

I have had numerous 'full and frank discussions' with Observers who have been going to report a driver for not slowing under the yellow when it has been patently obvious that the driver was committed to the move and could have made the situation worse by obeying the letter of the law. Believe it or not - some of us are on your side....

Originally posted by Flagman
I have had numerous 'full and frank discussions' with Observers who have been going to report a driver for not slowing under the yellow when it has been patently obvious that the driver was committed to the move and could have made the situation worse by obeying the letter of the law. Believe it or not - some of us are on your side....

Amen to that. Particularly when you get a very slow back marker. Didn't some once say something to the effect of "Rules being for the guidance of wise men and the obeyance of idiots".

Please see this topic which I have just posted:

http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10833

However, please don't let that put you off continuing this discussion on this topic. I'm sure Nic's friends and family would support any discussion which helps get to the bottom of this tragic loss.

May I echo Craigs sentiment, a tragic accident and very sad loss.
RIP Nic

Sorry I didn't reply there, but I was stood at the corner just as the cars come round onto the pit straight from the hairpin - I don't know what it's called - I missed the incident itself, but the aftermath was...worrying. I'm very sorry to hear of the loss - the driver's brother was on the track looking very upset and I felt for him then - I feel for him now. It's a real shame that this should happen - it was shaping up to be a great day.