Red Flag just after half race distance... should this be declared a result?

Went racing at Brands Hatch today in a 15 min sprint. Not too long into the race a car spun at the bottom of Paddock Hill Bend and ended up in the gravel. He was completely beached in what is obviously a pretty dangerous position, but I only saw yellow flags as I passed the car for the first time. I was having a ding-dong battle with another car at the time and next time we came round the beached car was in exactly the same position and the yellow flags were still out. Half a lap later the red flags came out and the race was stopped. As it happens, the reds came out just after half race distance and therefore was declared a result and we lost the rest of the race.

By comparison, a couple of races previous there was a 40min event in which a car got similarly stranded but was recovered under a safety car and everyone else got to finish their race.

Only on the telly today I saw an F1 race in which at least two cars were recovered under saftey car and everyone else got to finish their race.

So why do those of us doing sprint races have to lose out? Is it because the time to recover a car is more than the time we have left in the race? What does that have to do with it? We all paid for a full race.

So... question - Having paid nearly £200 for a 15 min race, is it fair that a race result can be declared after only 7 1/2 mins? The meeting wasn't running late or anything. Surely another 7 1/2 mins wasn't going to make any difference to anything.

If there's anyone from the MSA or there are any CoC's reading, please, please consider a rule something like a result can be declared at 1/2 race distance OR 15mins whichever is the greater.

Cos for sure I'm not going to be racing much longer if that's how long I'm gonna get for my money.

I'm glad it's not only me who came away with the feeling I've been ripped off today. As I posted in another thread I think we are just being used to subsidise the organisers own series and somehow we are just having the **** taken out of us.
As dtype38 says the other series can use a safety car for a couple of laps to remove the obstructions but we couldn't.

When I was at Spa last year the organisers even added laps to our race to compensate for laps lost under the safety car, but then maybe they appreciate the people who pay and don't treat them like an inconvenience as we seem to be treated here.

Whether you can use a safety car and/or whether you get laps added depends on the regs for the race you are in - what was it? The reg's have to provide for a safety car and say that you'll get laps back.

Some of the track guys can probably tell you how long it would take to recover a car from that location but I'd imagine that by the time the safety car was deployed, had all the cars behind it so that it was safe to stick the tractor out to snatch and then get the car back behind the barriers your race would have finished.

Nat B can be declared at 50%, Nat A is 75% unless the reg's for the race provide otherwise.

:rant: :rant: Tell m like it is boys !!!!!!!

I've actually done an almost complete 20 min race under a pace car !

Piglet, all the regs in the world don't help when you pay £200 for bugger all.

If there's anyone from the MSA or there are any CoC's reading, please, please consider a rule something like a result can be declared at 1/2 race distance OR 15mins whichever is the greater.
I'm neither the MSA nor a Clerk, but I feel it's worth mentioning what the 750MC Regs say about red flags after 50%
Bike Sports Regs (http://www.750mc.co.uk/images/uploaded/Bike-Sports-2008-regs.pdf)
3. If the leader has completed more than half of the race distance or duration it shall not be re-started (unless the Clerk of Course so decides), the results will be declared in accordance with MSA Regulation G23 and the race shall still count as a full points-scoring round.
Obviously, if the meeting's running behind, G23 will have to apply strictly. But if not, the Clerks will consider various things (when the red flags came out - 51% or 74%; how long it'll take to clear up the incident...) and then can restart the race.
Seems the fairest solution in my book?

Piglet, all the regs in the world don't help when you pay £200 for bugger all.

Sorry, I'm just giving you the facts, I wasn't there I don't have an opinion...

If you're running in a series then you need to lobby to get the reg's changed to allow you a safety car (although there can then be a cost effect if you're the only series on the bill that uses a safety car - probably less likely these days) and to give you laps back if that's what you want.

If it's a one off race, think about not doing it if you don't like the reg's

As a reality though I don't think a safety car would have helped you, subject to being corrected by the track guys, I think you'd have spent the rest of the race behind the safety car - I guess you'd have got the rest of your track time but not in the way you wanted....

What you really wanted is a red flag and a restart - unfortunately in these days of packed timetables to keep costs down there isn't usually much scope for this.

As far as I know the regs have been framed this way for a long time.

The problem with offering restarts when there is no obligation to is that you can end up seriously annoying another group of competitors, if circumstances arise where they lose race time (or their race) because of other delays.

If restarts are going to be offered in this situation, then it would have to be on a discretionary basis and at the end of the progamme in my view, and even then in this situation I can see that at best you would get a six minute restart (15 minutes less the approx nine minutes when the red flag must have gone out).

It looks like the yellows were out until 50% of the race distance was done, So that the red can cancel out a restart.

A car beached at Paddock which is a dangerous possition I think should be an instant red.

It looks like the yellows were out until 50% of the race distance was done, So that the red can cancel out a restart.

A car beached at Paddock which is a dangerous possition I think should be an instant red.

I think thats the bit dtype38 was going on about. Isn't it against the spirit of the rules to use the yellows just long enough to get additional laps in, preventing the need (by same rules) for a restart? If they'd red-flagged it straight away a restart would have been mandatory, wouldn't it?

I hope we are mis-judging the organisers and that they do consider the value for money bit for competitors. I heard complaints from a championship a few years ago where several races on the trot got ended just after 50%.

The rules mentioned by Asp were introduced 2 years ago for that reason.

If there is nothing in the regs then the CoC cannot restart after 50% (75% NA) as anyone could dispute the result if they were higher after part 1.

Putting restart at CoC discretion in the regs does work as long as you trust the CoC to balance all the factors and come up with the right decision. He/She may still say no if the later races may be in danger if they give you more time.

If there is a better plan, post it here and maybe we can get clubs to consider it.

With reference to the Saftey car, it was not in the regs and therefore not on standby. If you consider that you should have a saftey car you need to start to lobby your co-ordinator so the regs can be changed and put forward in time for next season

A car beached at Paddock which is a dangerous possition I think should be an instant red.Why? Don't you trust drivers to pay proper attention to Yellow flags?

After all, if we could trust drivers, then a red flag would not be necessary except when the track was obstructed.

Jim

I think red flags are used far to much these days.

Plus you missed the point.

Why? Don't you trust drivers to pay proper attention to Yellow flags?

After all, if we could trust drivers, then a red flag would not be necessary except when the track was obstructed.

Jim

One day we'll find something we disagree on........but certainly not that!!!

Penelope Pitstop, fair enough the pace car was not in the regs so would not have been deployed.

But for those of you that quote the regs then that's OK, but if the regs had been adhered to yesterday, and had they thought the car was in a dangerous position then as blue nose states the race should have been red flagged immediately and not allowed to run for a further 2 laps. Regs are are OK when they are not abused as they were yesterday.

I've used a Supplementary Regulation for some years (where I've been responsible for writing them ;) ) that says "Notwithstanding the provisions of G.23., any race may be restarted, for its' full remaining distance at the discretion of the Clerk of the Course "if time permits" (my italics).
From memory, I believe that Britcar also use a similar Supplementary Regulation.

I think red flags are used far too much these days.

Plus you missed the point.1. So do I (even when it may be my safety they are helping to assure).

2. Sorry for that. If your point was about delaying the use of the red flag to make use of the >50% rule in G23 then I plead guilty to not addressing that. I thought others more directly concerned with managing race meetings and with paying entry fees to enable those meetings had, between them, covered the available points. ;) (And I don't think that there is one 'right' answer.)

Regards

Jim

If the race is held under a National B licence and is stopped by a red flag, then providing that the last lap before the red flag is over 50% of the race distance then it will be declared a result and there will be no restart.

If it is held under a National A licence then 75% will apply instead of 50%.

This information is in the Blue Book.

If the race is held under a National B licence and is stopped by a red flag, then providing that the last lap before the red flag is over 50% of the race distance then it will be declared a result and there will be no restart.

If it is held under a National A licence then 75% will apply instead of 50%.

This information is in the Blue Book.:banghead: Yes we are aware of the rules but you are missing the point that the race should either have been stopped before the half distance not 2 laps after the incident or allowed to run under a two post yellow for the rest of the race.

(my). . . point is that the race should either have been stopped before the half distance not 2 laps after the incident or allowed to run under a two post yellow for the rest of the race.Two laps of the Indy circuit does not afford much time for the following questions to be evaluated:


Can the marshals shift it?
Do you think we can live with it?
If we stop it, is there time in the day to restart without prejudice to other races?
Didn't you hear me? I said red flag please? :laugh:
I've only just been asked for a stop by the observer.
Since the drivers don't seem to be obeying the yellow flags, we'll have to stop this.But Yes, I do know that things get deliberately delayed so a result can be declared. Usually to duck point three above. (And sometimes because everyone is praying for an end to a deeply dull race. :D )

Regards

Jim

I think that race was anything but dull, back to point three above I think ;)

JimW's explanation of the 'process' and the factors involved in calling for a red flag is spot on, with the possible addition of 'let's just count to 10 in case the car gets going under its' own power".
However, I really do sympathise with competitors - maybe if circuit hire wasn't so astronomical, clubs could run to less stretched timetables so that Jim's third point would become less of a factor.

Went racing at Brands Hatch today in a 15 min sprint. Not too long into the race a car spun at the bottom of Paddock Hill Bend and ended up in the gravel. He was completely beached in what is obviously a pretty dangerous position, but I only saw yellow flags as I passed the car for the first time. I was having a ding-dong battle with another car at the time and next time we came round the beached car was in exactly the same position and the yellow flags were still out. Half a lap later the red flags came out and the race was stopped. As it happens, the reds came out just after half race distance and therefore was declared a result and we lost the rest of the race.

By comparison, a couple of races previous there was a 40min event in which a car got similarly stranded but was recovered under a safety car and everyone else got to finish their race.

Only on the telly today I saw an F1 race in which at least two cars were recovered under saftey car and everyone else got to finish their race.

So why do those of us doing sprint races have to lose out? Is it because the time to recover a car is more than the time we have left in the race? What does that have to do with it? We all paid for a full race.

So... question - Having paid nearly £200 for a 15 min race, is it fair that a race result can be declared after only 7 1/2 mins? The meeting wasn't running late or anything. Surely another 7 1/2 mins wasn't going to make any difference to anything.

If there's anyone from the MSA or there are any CoC's reading, please, please consider a rule something like a result can be declared at 1/2 race distance OR 15mins whichever is the greater.

Cos for sure I'm not going to be racing much longer if that's how long I'm gonna get for my money.


We use "HOT Pulls" here in the states. Selfom have red flags unless the track is blocked or inexcessable unless they track must be blocked.

It is the responsibilty of the Saftey Marshalls or Officaials as we call them to stay out of the way and not put their trucks or themselves in danger.

Other wise local yellow flags and White flags as needed for Slow vehical on track.

This issue is being discussed in 3 different threads under 2 different forum areas and has covered about 5 seperate pages of posts, I do appreciate that people are hacked off but is it really necessary to swamp the forum when there is no indication yet that anyone has actually bothered to approach the organising club to discuss the problem yet?

The problems of one race have overshadowed what was a highly succesful weekend. It does make you wonder why people become organisers/ CoC etc etc. Maybe the person concerned made a mistake, maybe they were entirely justified in making that call. Discuss it with them - then maybe everyone will learn from it & it will help avoid similar outcomes in future.

andy, I think all posts should have been merged into here by now.

i might be really stupid but if you reread our rules Tim you will find that use of a saftey car was added to the regs for this year . no i,ll correct that i am stupid

Jerry, I checked the meeting regs and no provision was made for a safety car in our race.

I think a lot of the problem is the pratteling about getting a new start under way, the green flag lap etc, just line em up on the grid and when the tracks clear get em going again job done.

Ok, I need to answer some points that have been raised....

1. Yes I know the rules and why the race was not restarted, but more on that later...

2. JimW et al, I fully understand that the decision process of going to a red flag isn't instantaneous. It is perfectly possible that on a circuit of only 55 second lap time it could take a couple of laps for it to happen. So in all probablility we were just unlucky with the timing in our race. Others may, but I'm certainly not going to directly accuse a CoC of deliberately delaying it to get an early race result. FWIW I think the "bad timing" explanation is far more likely.

3. AU N EGL, some tracks in the UK use Hot-Pull but its a while since I've seen it at this particular track, and then only under a safety car. Its difficult because the pull vehicle can only be sited on the opposite side of the track from the Paddock Hill gravel trap and its a very short track at only about 1 mile, so minimal time before the crocodile returns.

4. Andy97, sorry didn't know this was under discussion elswhere, but I guess that means it's a pretty serious topic if so many want to talk about it. As for speaking to those responsible... well I know the chap who organised the meeting, but I can't see how it can be his responsibility given that this is simply a case of the CoC enforcing an MSA Rule (see point 1). Similarly, how can I argue with the CoC for the same reason. My call in my first post was for the MSA and CoC's to consider a change to the rules to prevent the perceived injustice of the use of the 50% rule in very short races.

My case is that at this meeting there were 40min races costing £295 to enter. Curtailing one of those just after half way would still give the drivers quite a bit of track time for their money. More likely though, they could just run for 10 mins or so under a safety car to recover a stranded car, then get the rest of their race. Some of the races though, like mine, were only 15min long and cost £199 to enter. Enforcing the 50% rule meant we only got 8 mins or so of racing. Work that out on a mins racing/£ and you'd think we were in offshore powerboats, not clubby circuit racing. And I consider my self lucky because at least I had a race the day before and don't live too far away. Some of our drivers travelled half the length of the country just for that race. I'm annoyed, so how must they feel?

So... yes I know the rules, yes they were probably followed to the letter, yes we were probably just unfortunate on the day... but that doesn't mean we have to just sit back and accept not getting a restart. And the only way I know of influencing the powers-that-be is to kick up a fuss on this forum and get people talking about it, and hopefully, someone somewhere will show sympathy and make it say... 75% for races under 1/2 an hour... please :)

I'm not a driver or marshal just a spectator, but I have a lot of sympathy with the drivers posting on this. I cannot imagine how it must feel to spend that amount of money and lose half your race.
I spectate mainly at Mallory Park and have to say that the use of red flags for incidents seems, in my opinion, to have gone up markedly in recent years. The main reason for this seems to be gravel. I have watched racing at Mallory since 1973 and in the days before gravel you rarely if ever saw a red flag. Even in the mid seventies when ff1600s were flying through the air like the Red Arrows races were hardly ever stopped.
The introduction of gravel traps, particularly at Gerards, means harmless spins lead to stoppages of practise and races and the consequent pressures on timetables. I don't doubt that gravel stops cars hitting more solid barriers, but the pay off is that some cars that would have spun and rejoined end up beached in dangerous positions and others roll because of the effect of the gravel trap.
As a paying spectator I don't want to see people priced out of racing and I feel that with the many financial pressures that are present at the moment this will happen. The whole sport needs to think very carefully about where it is going in my view and work together to provide value for money racing.

We use "HOT Pulls" here in the states. Seldom have red flags unless the track is blocked or inexcessable unless they track must be blocked.

It is the responsibility of the Saftey Marshalls or Officaials as we call them to stay out of the way and not put their trucks or themselves in danger.

Other wise local yellow flags and White flags as needed for Slow vehical on track.The UK position (unless changed recently and I've not been keeping up :) ) is that snatches may only take place under either of two conditions:


The circuit has been licensed for such operations. This usually seems to require (the formal requirements are not publicly documented!) the circuit to have TV surveillance installed and regarded as acceptable in coverage/quality. Examples include Donington and Silverstone.
The race/practice has been 'neutralised' by the use of a safety car. This is the position at Brands AFAIK.
So getting a snatch vehicle into operation at Brands will require time for the deployment of a safety car in front of the leader and then waiting for competitors to bunch up behind it. Remember that is the only time competitors are required to travel at the speed of the safety car (nominal 50mph) and they are expected to travel faster at other times in order to catch up.

You may well ask how TV makes the operation of snatch vehicles safer. As far as I can see it simply gives Race Control a grandstand view of the developing accident. :laugh:

Regards

Jim

I think a lot of the problem is the pratteling about getting a new start under way, the green flag lap etc, just line em up on the grid and when the tracks clear get em going again job done.Totally agree. But who are the first people to form an orderly queue outside the Clerk's door when that is done? Yes, you got it; the drivers and team managers.

OK, I know that this varies from category to category and with some justification in those cases where it takes two laptops and an astrologer to re-start a car. But I have seen FF1600 drivers creating a fuss about not having 10 minutes before the re-start and wanting a formation lap as well as a green flag lap. And all this time the paying spectators are dieing of boredom.

Regards

Jim

Quite correct Jim except that Brands Hatch is now licenced like Silverstone and Donington. However snatch vehicles are not always included in the circuit contract, have to be hired at an extra cost and thus not all organising clubs choose to do so.

I'm not a driver or marshal just a spectator, but I have a lot of sympathy with the drivers posting on this. I cannot imagine how it must feel to spend that amount of money and lose half your race.
I spectate mainly at Mallory Park and have to say that the use of red flags for incidents seems, in my opinion, to have gone up markedly in recent years. The main reason for this seems to be gravel. I have watched racing at Mallory since 1973 and in the days before gravel you rarely if ever saw a red flag. Even in the mid seventies when ff1600s were flying through the air like the Red Arrows races were hardly ever stopped.
The introduction of gravel traps, particularly at Gerards, means harmless spins lead to stoppages of practise and races and the consequent pressures on timetables. I don't doubt that gravel stops cars hitting more solid barriers, but the pay off is that some cars that would have spun and rejoined end up beached in dangerous positions and others roll because of the effect of the gravel trap.
As a paying spectator I don't want to see people priced out of racing and I feel that with the many financial pressures that are present at the moment this will happen. The whole sport needs to think very carefully about where it is going in my view and work together to provide value for money racing.

Paddy...it is sometimes a little more complex than just drivers have paid, spectators have paid.....sometimes the Clerk of Course will stop a race without a re-start because of the actions of some drivers. Every now and then drivers do the wrong thing by their actions which can lead to a "message" being sent to that category during a race meeting.

As for "hot" recoveries/snatches....as I have said elsewhere here, it can be a thing of beauty when done correctly....but no matter how professional the team, there is still an element of danger whenever recovery vehicles are out there.

Quite correct Jim except that Brands Hatch is now licenced like Silverstone and Donington. However snatch vehicles are not always included in the circuit contract, have to be hired at an extra cost and thus not all organising clubs choose to do so.

The one at Brands is a 15 year old Discovery although on one occasion it did struggle to pull a car out at Paddock and "snatch" was the word as I thought it was going to rip the front off the stuck car as he took a run to drag the car out.

The one at Brands is a 15 year old Discovery although on one occasion it did struggle to pull a car out at Paddock and "snatch" was the word as I thought it was going to rip the front off the stuck car as he took a run to drag the car out.Thanks John; that seems a sensible change.

If you pay for them at Brands you get splendid Manitou type all terrain 4-wheel giant machines with telescopic front jibs. They make short work of removing anything.

If you don't pay for those I think you have to rely on the good offices of the recovery people who do their best with the equipment falcemob describes.

Regards

Jim

If you pay for them at Brands you get splendid Manitou type all terrain 4-wheel giant machines with telescopic front jibs. They make short work of removing anything.

if only that were the case Jim.

Sadly Brands Hatch's topography works against it when it comes to live snatches at Paddock Bend. The snatch vehicle refuge is at the bottom of the hill, and when anything requires to be lifted from the top, it takes "ages" for the manitou to crawl up the slope. It is embarassing to watch, to say the least. It is big but it is too cumbersome.
Say, hmm, 2 laps of the indy circuit under a safety car - maybe 4 at race pace to get up the hill to a stricken vehicle. Then perhaps another lap of race pace to hook up and then 2 laps to get it out the way.

Just does not make sense for the vast majority of races.

Also these vehicles seem to handle single seaters well, but big saloons? It's just an undignified drag in the majority of cases I've seen.

The other big problem with live (local yellow only) snatching at Paddock is - some other plonker will come off. It's happened to me at least twice when I was out there at a stricken car. That of course was in the era before live snatching and the overuse of reds when some marshals accepted some risk as part of the "job".

Finally, the solution?

The Americans may have desecrated the place with over zealous use of fencing, but they got a few things right. One was to temporarily get rid of the vast majority of gravel at Paddock and leave us rough run off tarmac.

Here is a question that is somewhat related.

What happens to the driver that caused the "red flag"?

Car to Car contact here is HIGHLY looked at as a major infraction. Even a little love tap, and bump drafting is questioned. ( Our Spec Miatas racers bump draft all the time as it makes then go 5mph faster on the straights)

If that car to car contact causes an accident or some mechanical faluire of a car causes an accident, that driver gets a warning. Two warnings and that driver is out for 12 months, then goes back to rookie or regonal lic and needs to work their way back up to a national lic.

275 GTB-4. I thought punishing everyone for the actions of individuals stopped when you left school. If individual drivers are not driving or behaving in an acceptable manner they should be punished for their infractions. Surely prompt and strict implementation of the rules and subsequent penalties should send out a message to other drivers.
I also have to say that in many cases the only thing that drivers may be guilty of is slight over exuberance. The fact that races may be allowed to run for some time before a red flag is thrown is not acceptable if it is being done to get the race over half distance.
Having said that I've seen enough drivers ignoring yellows to know that some do the book throwing at them.

We could discuss this one for ever and not come up with an answer that suits everyone...

Some possible scenarios....

1. Race Control leave a car in a potentially dangerous position after marshals have tried to shift it under yellows, then cover it with yellows for the remainder of the session.

Result - a queue of drivers and team personnel at RC door complaining that their car was put in danger (in the case of the stranded vehicle) and that their cars and drivers were put in danger (in the case of the other participents) AND unhappy marshals as they were exposed to the risk of shifting a car under yellows (see many many previous threads on this subject)

2. Red flag and restart where this happens before 50%/75%

Result - unhappy competitors at the tail end of the timetable who get bumped off the bottom of the timetable through no fault of their own when the curfew gets hit as it WILL do if this approach is taken to every session.
(BTW you can't restart without a green flag lap and if you did you'd get a queue of drivers complaining that their safety had been compromised because they hadn't warmed their brakes/tyres)

3. Deploy safety car and snatch/recover

Result - depending on the duration of the race this could result in the race being finished under the safety car and a queue of drivers complaining that they have lost their race time as their race was neutralised.

...and many other options that all upset someone or some group of people (including marshals if the days get longer due to stoppages)

For me the preferable solution would be safety car and snatch/recover AND an ability to add say a maximum of three laps to a race. That needs to be in the regs for a series and there needs to be time in the timetable for it to happen. It gives some racing time and it avoids the wasted time for a restart - some series have a prescribed 10 minute + procedure for a restart and some green flag laps can be so mind numbingly slow that they put a hole in the timetable on their own, I often pity the guys on the front of the grid when the back take for ever to get into position!

Running a race meeting, like participating in a race meeting is expensive, there is circuit hire, medical staff, timekeeping staff, recovery units etc. etc. to pay for and to keep costs to the competitors down clubs need to get as many sessions as possible through the day to spread the costs as widely as possible.

if only that were the case Jim.

Sadly Brands Hatch's topography works against it when it comes to live snatches at Paddock Bend. The snatch vehicle refuge is at the bottom of the hill, and when anything requires to be lifted from the top, it takes "ages" for the manitou to crawl up the slope. It is embarassing to watch, to say the least. It is big but it is too cumbersome.
Say, hmm, 2 laps of the indy circuit under a safety car - maybe 4 at race pace to get up the hill to a stricken vehicle. Then perhaps another lap of race pace to hook up and then 2 laps to get it out the way.

Just does not make sense for the vast majority of races.

Also these vehicles seem to handle single seaters well, but big saloons? It's just an undignified drag in the majority of cases I've seen.

The other big problem with live (local yellow only) snatching at Paddock is - some other plonker will come off. It's happened to me at least twice when I was out there at a stricken car. That of course was in the era before live snatching and the overuse of reds when some marshals accepted some risk as part of the "job".

Finally, the solution?

The Americans may have desecrated the place with over zealous use of fencing, but they got a few things right. One was to temporarily get rid of the vast majority of gravel at Paddock and leave us rough run off tarmac.I stand corrected - I won't complain about the speed of Donington's tractors again. :)

I agree with you about other cars falling off under yellows - I was driving the tractor when we had another FF hit the car we were trying to remove. It sent the IO flying but luckily he was not much hurt.

Regards

Jim

Finally, the solution?

The Americans may have desecrated the place with over zealous use of fencing, but they got a few things right. One was to temporarily get rid of the vast majority of gravel at Paddock and leave us rough run off tarmac.

We have very few gravel pits any more. The only gravel pits, ( called Kitty Liter) are in dangorious areas were proper run off cound not be made. end of Turn 10 at Road Atlanta)

For the most part many tracks have large grassie areas as run off. Much safer and does not chew up the car.

Turn 1 at Watkens Glen was paved over to remove the kitty liter. Now it is much safer and cars can just drive off vs having to be towed or snatched out.

Most of WG is lined with BLUE ARMCO 2 meets off the track on each side.

For the most part many tracks have large grassie areas as run off. Much safer and does not chew up the car.


We have a climate problem that can cause problems with large grass run off areas! They are often wet and boggy which can cause cars to roll if they dig in to the soft stuff!

For the most part many tracks have large grassie areas as run off. Much safer and does not chew up the car. Many of the UK major circuits are owned by a company called MSV. The boss is very protective of the grass around his circuits. We were once warned in a pre-race driver briefing that two wheels on any bit of grass would get a driver warning, do it again or put all four wheels on the grass and its disqualification time! So I don't think that would go down well here.

In answer to your previous comment about contact and driver disipline, that's enforce pretty well in the series I drive in. The corner where the problem was at Brands Hatch just happens to be a semi-blind right hander which drops away so fast its downright scary. Most cars in that gravel trap were just "dropped".

Back to Piglets points though. All well made and yes we've seen them all. There's certainly no pleasing all of the folk even most of the time at a race meeting. I would like to say on your point 1 though, that I think the red should only be deployed if a driver is potentially injured or someone running into the stranded car is virtually a certainty (like its still partly on the track). Else I think the marshalls should stay well away and wave yellow flags. Us drivers are mostly quite aware of what that means and should slow down accordingly for that point of the track then carry on with the race. Anyone not doing that should be black flagged. My point being that I have little sympathy with the "you put my car in danger" brigade. If they're that worried about it, what's it doing on a race track. And, of course, even if the worst should happen, well that's why those of us on track have harnesses and roll cages. :)

Us drivers are mostly quite aware of what that means and should slow down accordingly for that point of the track then carry on with the race. Anyone not doing that should be black flagged.

I'm really not being sarcastic and I'm assuming that you're referring to your series. If only that were true in general then the use of red flags could be significantly reduced.

(BTW you can't restart without a green flag lap and if you did you'd get a queue of drivers complaining that their safety had been compromised because they hadn't warmed their brakes/tyres)Its the same for every one, learn to cope with it are they drivers or what, try driving on Class A tyres for a few seasons that will sort the men from the boys. What do they do if it starts raining, answer slow down which proves they can do it if they want to.

Its the same for every one, learn to cope with it are they drivers or what, try driving on Class A tyres for a few seasons that will sort the men from the boys. What do they do if it starts raining, answer slow down which proves they can do it if they want to.

The answer in a lot of cases to what do they do when it's raining is "their crew queue up outside RC to demand that the race is stopped" :laugh:

It's an MSA requirement AFAIK for a green flag lap (although I can't be bothered to get up and get the BB out), if clubs could get away without running one I'm sure they would, it chews up a fair amount of time. But in the absence of a BB change a GF lap is required and a club must adhere to that.

Back to Piglets points though. All well made and yes we've seen them all. There's certainly no pleasing all of the folk even most of the time at a race meeting. I would like to say on your point 1 though, that I think the red should only be deployed if a driver is potentially injured or someone running into the stranded car is virtually a certainty (like its still partly on the track). Else I think the marshalls should stay well away and wave yellow flags. Us drivers are mostly quite aware of what that means and should slow down accordingly for that point of the track then carry on with the race. Anyone not doing that should be black flagged. My point being that I have little sympathy with the "you put my car in danger" brigade. If they're that worried about it, what's it doing on a race track. And, of course, even if the worst should happen, well that's why those of us on track have harnesses and roll cages. :)

The difficulty with that is that if one car has ended up in that position there is every chance another one will go in at the same point, it's the law of sod in action :) One car going in and getting beached/stranded is one thing, another one going in and collecting the one already there puts drivers at risk and whilst you might say that's OK, at the end of the day, it's a clerk who is going to end up in a Coroners Court explaining why they chose to continue with a car in a dangerous position.

The reality is that decisions like this are made in every session, the safety decisions are weighed up alongside the requirement to keep timetables running and to try to keep as many groups as possible happy, but I doubt any clerk/club starts out from a position of trying to exploit/rip off one group of people.

Dtype, if you've not done it before it's worth popping into Race Control one day in between your sessions to see what goes on and to have a chat with one of the clerks about some of the rationale behind decisions, you'd be made welcome and it's always useful to have a drivers viewpoint on things.

The difficulty with that is that if one car has ended up in that position there is every chance another one will go in at the same point, it's the law of sod in action :)..... ....it's a clerk who is going to end up in a Coroners Court explaining why they chose to continue with a car in a dangerous position.Forgive me if I sound a bit narked... but however the first car got there the yellow flags should mean that everyone is aware of a danger and should be extra careful, and if the flags are waved you should be going slowly and be prepared to stop if necessary. So there shouldn't be any risk of another car getting involved... and if any drivers aren't obeying the flags they they should be the ones in court having to explain why they caused an accident, not the CoC.

Sorry but I just don't get the idea that johngee refers to. It suggests that CoC's are letting people get away with blatantly racing at full speed past accidents or some such! I sincerely hope that doesn't happen... outside BTCC that is!

Calming thoughts... calming thoughts...

Dtype, if you've not done it before it's worth popping into Race Control one day in between your sessions to see what goes on and to have a chat with one of the clerks about some of the rationale behind decisions, you'd be made welcome and it's always useful to have a drivers viewpoint on things.

Interesting. Didn't know that was allowed. Thought it was "powers-that-be at work - don't disturb". Will add that to the to-do list alongside a visit to the emergency crew truck. :)

It's an MSA requirement AFAIK for a green flag lap (although I can't be bothered to get up and get the BB out), if clubs could get away without running one I'm sure they would, it chews up a fair amount of time. But in the absence of a BB change a GF lap is required and a club must adhere to that.Exactly as I said I am sure it is and maybe it should be revoked as track time these days is so clearly money. We are discussing a solution to a problem and I am sure the solution does indeed lie at MSA level so prehaps something should change somewhere.

We have a climate problem that can cause problems with large grass run off areas! They are often wet and boggy which can cause cars to roll if they dig in to the soft stuff!
Oh Yes cars are faster on WET grass then pavement, just no car control.

Many of the UK major circuits are owned by a company called MSV. The boss is very protective of the grass around his circuits. We were once warned in a pre-race driver briefing that two wheels on any bit of grass would get a driver warning, do it again or put all four wheels on the grass and its disqualification time! So I don't think that would go down well here.

Say WHAT? for crying out loud. We had a track down like that. then they found out that no race organization, not even the moto GP would come to their track. and car clubs would not come back. Now they are just a we bit too picky if you park a bit over your paddock space. So they still have clubs not coming back.

A major manufacture told this track that there grass rule was crazy, and they would not bring there test cars and BIG CHECK BOOK back to that track

The idea is TO NOT CRASH. But if I have to go OFF into the grass, vs HITTING an other race car, I am going into the grass. and the owner can . . . .

I will send the track owner a big bill for cleaning my car to get his grass OFF MY RACE CAR.


Grass is for saftey run off first and foremost. Not formal gardens around a race track.

D-type,I ,like you did not have much idea as to what went on up those stairs,had the same impression of "Do not Enter". Johngee kindly invited me into RC for a day at Silverstone a couple of months ago. Guess what,I would not want to make the decisions a CoC has to make,especially being a volunteer,but saying that,it is defiantly worth a visit just to get an inside view from the other side of the fence.

Sorry but I just don't get the idea that johngee refers to. It suggests that CoC's are letting people get away with blatantly racing at full speed past accidents or some such! I sincerely hope that doesn't happen... outside BTCC that is!

Interesting. Didn't know that was allowed. Thought it was "powers-that-be at work - don't disturb". Will add that to the to-do list alongside a visit to the emergency crew truck. :)

I don't believe that we're 'lettlng people get away with racing at full speed past accidents' but if the whole field doesn't slow down, there isn't much we can do other than red flag the race - that, if you like, is a 'global' punishment....and I will admit that I've done it. Unfortunately, such behaviour is not limited to the BTCC, although they don't set a good example (but that's been debated in other threads ;) ).
As Terry has found out, many of 'us' are only too happy to show drivers round and discuss 'our world'. It's not a 'secret society' or 'star chamber' - after all, we're actually there for your benefit!

I have been up there several times in the past usually to give some input and insight into the championship if not competing in that particular race and have found that any assistance was very welcome, offer your services you may be surprised.

Forgive me if I sound a bit narked... but however the first car got there the yellow flags should mean that everyone is aware of a danger and should be extra careful, and if the flags are waved you should be going slowly and be prepared to stop if necessary. So there shouldn't be any risk of another car getting involved... and if any drivers aren't obeying the flags they they should be the ones in court having to explain why they caused an accident, not the CoC.

Sorry but I just don't get the idea that johngee refers to. It suggests that CoC's are letting people get away with blatantly racing at full speed past accidents or some such! I sincerely hope that doesn't happen... outside BTCC that is!

Calming thoughts... calming thoughts...


I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

We know that drivers don't always obey flags, sometimes they have good'ish excuses for that (the other car blocked my view, the post is out of sight, he waved me by etc. etc.), we know that other cars do go in at the same point. Risks have to be assessed and I'm not surprised that decisions are made that you might feel are over cautious.

Do make a trip to RC, you will be made welcome and only good things can come from us all understanding more about what we all do. I think driver's marshalling is a great idea, not just because it's positive for the drivers but it's really positive for the marshals as well.

Did'nt someone successfully sue for over a million pounds because a race was not stopped at Snett and a car hit him in his stranded car paraliysing him, if thats true then there is probably the real reason for this, a fear of getting sued if no action is taken!

We could discuss this one for ever and not come up with an answer that suits everyone...

Some possible scenarios....

1. Race Control leave a car in a potentially dangerous position after marshals have tried to shift it under yellows, then cover it with yellows for the remainder of the session.

Result - a queue of drivers and team personnel at RC door complaining that their car was put in danger (in the case of the stranded vehicle) and that their cars and drivers were put in danger (in the case of the other participents) AND unhappy marshals as they were exposed to the risk of shifting a car under yellows (see many many previous threads on this subject)

2. Red flag and restart where this happens before 50%/75%

Result - unhappy competitors at the tail end of the timetable who get bumped off the bottom of the timetable through no fault of their own when the curfew gets hit as it WILL do if this approach is taken to every session.
(BTW you can't restart without a green flag lap and if you did you'd get a queue of drivers complaining that their safety had been compromised because they hadn't warmed their brakes/tyres)

3. Deploy safety car and snatch/recover

Result - depending on the duration of the race this could result in the race being finished under the safety car and a queue of drivers complaining that they have lost their race time as their race was neutralised.

...and many other options that all upset someone or some group of people (including marshals if the days get longer due to stoppages)

For me the preferable solution would be safety car and snatch/recover AND an ability to add say a maximum of three laps to a race. That needs to be in the regs for a series and there needs to be time in the timetable for it to happen. It gives some racing time and it avoids the wasted time for a restart - some series have a prescribed 10 minute + procedure for a restart and some green flag laps can be so mind numbingly slow that they put a hole in the timetable on their own, I often pity the guys on the front of the grid when the back take for ever to get into position!

Running a race meeting, like participating in a race meeting is expensive, there is circuit hire, medical staff, timekeeping staff, recovery units etc. etc. to pay for and to keep costs to the competitors down clubs need to get as many sessions as possible through the day to spread the costs as widely as possible.

Of course!! the answer is as plain as the nose on your face...no matter what course of action Officials take to try and manage an incident...it invariably ends up with a queue of drivers complaining!! :p

Therefore, we should all carry on regardless :laugh:

Did'nt someone successfully sue for over a million pounds because a race was not stopped at Snett and a car hit him in his stranded car paraliysing him, if thats true then there is probably the real reason for this, a fear of getting sued if no action is taken!

Dead right Al....and the organising club were held 50% to blame. A precedent that haunts all of us who have to make that sort of decision.

Do make a trip to RC, you will be made welcome and only good things can come from us all understanding more about what we all do. I think driver's marshalling is a great idea, not just because it's positive for the drivers but it's really positive for the marshals as well.


I did this last year to go and see johngee at the 750MC meeting at Silverstone, as he'd suggested I went to have a look. Ended up sitting with Julian [surname??] and was really interesting, especially when somebody went off and they were using the CCTV to make the decision as to what to do. Def worth a trip in my opinion :)

It's an MSA requirement AFAIK for a green flag lap (although I can't be bothered to get up and get the BB out), if clubs could get away without running one I'm sure they would, it chews up a fair amount of time. But in the absence of a BB change a GF lap is required and a club must adhere to that.
There's at least one club that doesn't have a GF lap for every race.
I think that providing they've practiced that day and track conditions haven't changed; if they're on road tyres (have I got that the right way round - John, I'm sure you know ;) ?) they can grid and go.

There's at least one club that doesn't have a GF lap for every race.
I think that providing they've practiced that day and track conditions haven't changed; if they're on road tyres (have I got that the right way round - John, I'm sure you know ;) ?) they can grid and go.

Spot on! 750MC catagories on road tyres don't have a g/f lap exactly as described.
......but it's not just tyres - I've tried 'selling' the concept to other clubs that I clerk with that run cars with similar tyres and got a resounding 'No' from the drivers who claim they need to warm engines, transmissions, brakes.....and themselves! ;)

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

We know that drivers don't always obey flags, sometimes they have good'ish excuses for that (the other car blocked my view, the post is out of sight, he waved me by etc. etc.), we know that other cars do go in at the same point. Risks have to be assessed and I'm not surprised that decisions are made that you might feel are over cautious.

Point taken :Shake:

I have personal experience of having my collar felt by a CoC for passing under yellow, and yes it was raining, and yes I was overtaking the car blind side from the flag post as we passed it. Still got an endorsement. Haven't done it again.

As for assessing risk and making decisions.... yes I think they're overcautious, no I don't think its the CoC's fault, it's virtually part of our culture now (ohh look I've had an accident and got hurt, quick Ethel book that holiday in the Bahamas, we'll be rolling in it soon, now who shall we sue first), and no I wouldn't like to be the one having to make the decisions... just wanna drive fast and keep it off the public highway. :brm:

Still think the 50% rule shouldn't apply to races this short though.... and the schedule should allow for a bit of give and take with the longer races.

Still think the 50% rule shouldn't apply to races this short though

Don't quote me but this may be reconsidered at a high level ;) ;) ;)

So where do we lobby to get a rule change?

The black and yellow flag was ideal and should be used again.

So where do we lobby to get a rule change?

You could do worse than write to the Chairman of the Race Committee at the MSA (Robin Knight) ;)

The black and yellow flag was ideal and should be used again.

Yes!

I don't think there's much point in wishing for the return of the black and yellow quartered flag. I understand that it was dropped as a result of FIA disapproval, as it was only used in the UK and with the increasing number of NEAFP meetings attracting overseas drivers (who didn't know what it meant!) it was felt to be unsafe.
You could try lobbying the FIA but I think they have other (more interesting?) items on the agenda at the moment! :rofl: :rofl:

Originally Posted by blue nose
The black and yellow flag was ideal and should be used again.
Agreed but my reason for being so happy when it was abolished was because most of the drivers didn't understand the workings of it.

My first ever race had a black and yellow, the three race leaders carried on at 95% race speed, half of the rest of the pack slowed to one speed and the Muppet in front of me slowed to a dawdle creating three lots of cars spread evenly around Brands Indy. When the flags were withdrawn I was lapped before I could even start racing again (I hadn't passed the start/finish line).
Similar things happened on every race that I was in where the yellow/black was used.
Yes I know it was 100% the drivers at fault but although in my first race sanctions were taken against the lead drivers, nothing has ever been seen to be done in respect others who left massive gaps negating the whole point of using the flag.

Agreed but my reason for being so happy when it was abolished was because most of the drivers didn't understand the workings of it.

My first ever race had a black and yellow, the three race leaders carried on at 95% race speed, half of the rest of the pack slowed to one speed and the Muppet in front of me slowed to a dawdle creating three lots of cars spread evenly around Brands Indy. When the flags were withdrawn I was lapped before I could even start racing again (I hadn't passed the start/finish line).
Similar things happened on every race that I was in where the yellow/black was used.
Yes I know it was 100% the drivers at fault but although in my first race sanctions were taken against the lead drivers, nothing has ever been seen to be done in respect others who left massive gaps negating the whole point of using the flag.Absolutely right. The quarter flag worked sometimes but, IMHO, at least as often failed to achieve the necessary slowing down and bunching up. Without both of these you have not created the same effect as a (properly conducted) safety car intervention.

So we could not rely on it.

As for foreign drivers not understanding it, that seemed to make BARC series drivers foreigners. ;) BARC (HQ) did not use it so there was a learning curve if those series came to a meeting run by some other club which did use it.

(On the same lines but O/T, how do foreign drivers cope with the UK flag rules generally? There are many differences between the FIA rules and the MSA ones. Hence the nonsense (in the rules sense) of the use of double yellows in any non-International permitted race. Similarly the meaninglessness of a stationary yellow in any Internationally permitted race. Confusing isn't it?)

Regards

Jim

Excuse the intrusion from the colonies :D, but what is this black and yellow flag you speak of?

Mick

The black and yellow flag was a safety car scenario, but without the safety car. Good concept, but some drivers failed on the self control front.

Ah, so you don't have to wait for the SC to catch the leader, then everyone form up behind them. I assume that the leader would set the pace? Sounds like a pretty damn good idea.

Mick

Exactly, but only if the leader sets the "right pace" and all drivers spot the flags! It was used for a couple of years and a few disasters saw it binned.

The leader slowed down to around 50 mph and the rest of the field followed like a snake.

It worked great in NW FF its not difficult to grasp, Plus a great time saver.

With the organizers compessing so many races into a meeting how much time would be saved with stopping the officials crawling round the circuit after every race.

.

With the organizers compessing so many races into a meeting how much time would be saved with stopping the officials crawling round the circuit after every race.

What do you mean by "crawling round the circuit"? Do you mean the course car run?

The driver of the course car usually picks up reports between sessions and does a swift visual check of the circuit to ensure all still looks OK. There are usually recoveries going on at the same time and yes, where there are no recoveries and have been no incidents some clubs will dispense with the course car run.

Its not needed on a test day between sessions with not as many marshals on post. If there is a problem just use the radio.

At Oulton it takes around five minutes to do a lap times that by eight races .....

Its not needed on a test day between sessions with not as many marshals on post. If there is a problem just use the radio.



It's worth remembering that test days are not run under a permit or subject to MSA regulations.

Maybee but its still a good way to save time on our over crowded and over priced race day.

.....You could try lobbying the FIA but I think they have other (more interesting?) items on the agenda at the moment! :rofl: :rofl:

maybe we should suggest a 'black and blue' flag?;)

Maybee but its still a good way to save time on our over crowded and over priced race day.

I think it depends on the organising club, certainly on what I see there is very little time wasted on course car laps, they usually go for a purpose (collect reports, inspect circuit) and usually at the same time as recoveries are taking place and often the cc comes in after the cars have been released to the grid/circuit.

Down here...cars can be sent around to grid up again after a RED or sent back to the pits for a re-run (reduced laps) later in the program :)

Down here...cars can be sent around to grid up again after a RED or sent back to the pits for a re-run (reduced laps) later in the program :)
Yes, it depends on what the CoC has told them at the briefing that weekend.

Mick

Yes, it depends on what the CoC has told them at the briefing that weekend.

Mick

Oh?

The CoC can make a choice (at least I think it is up to them) wherther the cars return to Pitlane or the grid when a race is redflagged. It is usually the grid though.

Mick

I stand to be corrected at any time.

Whether you can use a safety car and/or whether you get laps added depends on the regs for the race you are in - what was it? The reg's have to provide for a safety car and say that you'll get laps back.


Although I'm guilty of not reading our series regs thoroughly enough I have just been informed by our organiser that the use of a safety car is written into our regs.

It occured to me that one major loss of time in restarting after a red flag is getting the grid lined up again. I can see why when I think about what happend at Brands. I was running in 2nd when the red flags came out, but when the leading group got round to the grid, most of the rest of the field were already there. To the credit of the drivers who arrived first, many held back, I think assuming the leaders would drive or be waved through to take up their correct positions for the restart. But we were way back down the straight and I must admit that it goes so against the grain to pass anything under a red flag that it never occurred to me to simply drive up to the front. I obviously wasn't the only one as the leader did the same. So this left the field spread right down the straight and completely out of order, including some of us that had actually changed position since the last time we passed the line. Getting the correct order down from race control, then getting us gridded up in that order could easily have taken the rest of our racing time.

So.... I think some system of getting the grid sorted out quickly would be a major contribution to us getting a restart in a sprint races. Ideally this system would get the leader to the grid first and get everyone to line up behind in the next available grid slot in their correct order. So not wanting to just complain without suggesting a solution here's mine.

1. Standing instruction to all drivers: If the red flags are out and you're touring slowly back to the grid, then get back into the order you were in when you last crossed the line. If you overtook someone since you crossed the line, wave them back in front of you on a clear part of the track. - If you were overtaken since you crossed the line gently ease back past them on a clear part of the track.

2. Race control to inform start line and rear grid marshalls of the number of the race leader.

3. Rear grid marshalls to halt all cars in order of arrival in single file to one side of the track short of the last grid box, until the leader arrives.

4. As soon as the race leader arrives he/she should be passed straight on to the start line with all cars still arriving to follow directly to the grid. As soon as the last "on track" car has passed the back of the grid, then the "held" cars to be waved forward.

5. As the leader arrives at the start of the grid, all cars are formed up directly onto the grid boxes in order of arrival.

If my calculations are correct, then hey presto the grid is correctly reformed without any shuffling or need for an extra lap. Hopefully that would mean that the moment the incident is cleared the re-start procedure can get underway.

Waddaya think?

Dtype, what has happened in the past is that the entire grid would be stopped (in Brands case) before the pit entry and the cars would be brought down in correct order, that's what makes me feel they had no intention of restarting.

dtype38, Without meaning to be rude (honest :) ) I think that it would help you to understand some of the problems which organisers face if you had a spell in race control or perhaps as one of the startline people trying to organise the grid for a re-start.

First of all we need a new grid from the timekeepers. That's two minutes at best (and if we want 10 copies - all agreed by the clerk - that's several more minutes.

Then the optimists who believed they were five places further up the grid need to have the actual position explained to them.

Then all the mechanics etc. who have swarmed onto the grid need to be beaten back and stopped from doing things which they are not permitted by the rules to do. (And those concerned need to know those rules.)

Again, without meaning to be rude, if it was so easy why have not people sorted it out before now?

Regards

Jim

Then all the mechanics etc. who have swarmed onto the grid need to be beaten back and stopped from doing things which they are not permitted by the rules to do. (And those concerned need to know those rules.)

Not sure what world your racing takes place in but it's different to ours. My mechanic is sitting behind the steering wheel so would definitely not be swarming over the grid.

:) No offence taken...

Ok, so there might be winners and losers but personally I'd rather be out of position and have the rest of my race, than argue about it and lose it!

My reasoning was that if a) the cars are lined up as per their order as they come round the track, then how can anyone argue about thier position, and b) for exactly the same reason, the marshalls only need to identify the lead car, not work out the full grid.

As for the place jumpers... disqualify em. As for the mechanics and stuff... err isn't that F1? If my car isn't working I have to get my tool bag out the boot and fix if myself!

PS I've had an invite by Piglet, so hope to do just that :-)

Not sure what world your racing takes place in but it's different to ours. My mechanic is sitting behind the steering wheel so would definitely not be swarming over the grid.Well it runs from yours through (in no particular order) most other classic racing (Top Hat tomorrow to Goodwood/Silverstone Classic, via AMOC and VSCC), touring cars, BRSCC/BARC clubbies, 750MC, A1GP, F3/GT and most other UK circuit racing at one time or another. :)

I've seen 'mechanics behind the wheel' get out and start fettling their cars on the grid. And then need assistance to do up their belts! And probably a push start. All willingly given but it all goes to make make re-starts less than dead-easy. ;)

Regards

Jim

JimW, I take your point but there are regulations regarding assistance and when it can be given, it's up to the officials to enforce them as needed. After all they are used to the letter of law in my world why not in the others you talk of?

No doubt I have antagonised most of the MSA officials going on this and the other rule rant thread so I will have to be on bestest behaviour when I race from now on.:angel:

JimW, I take your point but there are regulations regarding assistance and when it can be given, it's up to the officials to enforce them as needed. . . . But that would be behaving like a headmaster wouldn't it. :rofl:

Jim

But that would be behaving like a headmaster wouldn't it. :rofl:

JimTouché, as they say in Germany or wherever.:laugh:

My reference to re-starts wasn't so much about the instance where you keep the field on track...most of the meetings I have been to in Australia usually bring the cars in to the pits, release the next event, then re-schedule the Red Flagged event later, often with reduced laps.

But that would be behaving like a headmaster wouldn't it. :rofl:
Jim
Touché, as they say in Germany or wherever.:laugh:

Err... does that mean the falcy is now patted on the head and will fall into line, and everyone is again happy just to do as teacher says?

This all sounds good to me and will help us marshals get home earlier.
Just use your on-board technology to calculate where you were on the lap one before the last lap that the leader passed the finish line before the red flag and use the slow down lap to position yourself in that order and stop in a queue at the last bend before the grid.
When the gridsheet comes out from the timekeepers it should be a doddle to just release you in order to the grid.

Sounds much easier than the Black and yellow flag process that so many drivers couldn't understand.

Well, I wasn't actually suggesting waiting for the grid sheet. But if you think that because a few drivers in some fancy race series' are too stupid or too selfish to bother trying to save the rest of a race by sorting themselves out on the way back to the grid, then there's no point in trying it is there?

Perhaps some of us should check with some solicitors if we can sue the driver of the car that caused the red flag for our wasted time and money. Bet that would focus some minds on keeping it on the track!