Mount Panorama (the track)

I went to a meeting in town tonight that was held by the chamber of comerce and Bathurst city council. It was to do with the developement of Mount Panorama and the attempts by the local council to secure adequate funding from both the federal and state govs.

The council is after a total of $20 nillion dollars (10 from each gov),to add to the $4mil that they have alraedy put in.
This money would be allocated roughly along the lines of $6mill for Reid, Sullman and McFillamy parks,for upgrading of spectator facilities and a general re do of the area.
$4 millon for Haris park and along pit straight and @.5 mill for acces roads and spectator entry and exit points.
The remaining money would be used to completely flatten the current pit complex and start again. The new complex would include pit garages, accomodation,corporate suites, training rooms and a function centre. The entire pit area would be sealed and carports would also be errected.

The state member said that the nsw gov had noyt gone ahead with the Lemans race at homebush because it could not see the point of spending $8 mil on something that they would have nothing to show for it when it was over, so there maybe some hope yet to getting some money out of them. The federal gov is going to be a whole different ballgame:(

Bahturst council has an agreement with AVESCO to run the race until 2004 and are working on signing a ten yar deal. That deal will hinge largley on getting funding for the capital works projects outline above.

I have a pettition from council to sign, so if anyone would like a copy just email or PM me and i will post it to you.:)

Bring it on Mount, I'll sign it.

Would AVESCO really be that hard to convince to extend the contract. I mean V8's without Bathurst - Not possible.

I have to be honest about this - despite my 30 years involvement in motor sport, as a voter if the Fed Govt kicked in any money to the track I for one would be up in arms about it and protesting as loud as I can.

Why?

Why the hell should a track that gets an ELITE commercial category ONCE a year be given money that would be better spent and used on permanent race tracks around the country or for the development of youth racer programs?

V8 Supercars are earning millions from around the country and what are they doing with that money? They certainly are NOT helping future racing drivers in any way at present.

Maybe if they started to put some of that money back into motor SPORT (note the emphasis on the word sport) then I would be supportive - but not until.

Sorry - but elitism should not be encouraged.

Essentially I'm with you, Race Time. The Governments should be doing something for the sport, as they do for other sports, but the demands of AVESCO shouldn't be the principal directing force for that money.

Over what period is this money required? A guarantee of $2m per year be sufficient?

And how can they spend $4m in Harris Park? I simply don't understand their rate of spending...

And how can they spend $4m in Harris Park? I simply don't understand their rate of spending...

Read it all Ray, it says Haris Park and the pit straight, which would include a grandstand:rolleyes:



Over what period is this money required? A guarantee of $2m per year be sufficient?

They were saying as long as some of the work is started before nexts years race it will probably be ok.

Money is certianly coming from the V8 circcus back into grass roots motorsport. Ford sponsor Formula Ford and their Kartstars program is fantastic. DJR have started an assocoaition with Azzurro karts.

They do need to use Mt. Panorama more than once a year. Before we got the Grand Prix bikes at Phillip Island there used to be a huge bike meeting at Easter.

Wby not the Amerrican Le Mans series around Mt. Panorama?

Yes, that was posted in another thread, and it would certainly help justify the government expenditure.

Sure, mtpanorama, I knew you said Harris Pk and pit straight, but that is Harris Park.

Do you reckon the 1000 would survive if the ALMS cars were to run there? I don't see they could take over that event if Cochrane pulled AVESCO out ... which wouldn't surprise me once he's got that gov't money...

V8 money is certainly NOT coming back into grass root motor sport. Formula Ford have been sponsored by Ford virtually since the categories inception - at present Ford are strangling the category trying to introduce a one make category and this is have a detrimental effect on the category - no on e knows if they are Arthur or Martha at present and no one can plane 2 years down the track - that is not support!

I'm not disputing DJR support some karting venture - but is that all that can be done? That is like the Fed Govt saying they will finance an anti-drugs campaign - here's $100,000 - goodbye!

V8 Supercars are sucking up sponsorship like it is going out of style. They are alienating officials and organisation groups left right and centre by trying to centralise their control over the category.

Worse is that they are pumping up a bubble that could burst around them, and those who are heavily committed to their ways.

In the meantime, they are forcing promoters to look only to satisfying their needs, ignoring the many who want to get on with racing and watch other categories.

RaceTime (shall I also call you Racey?), are you interested in reading some of the Bruce Polain exposures about CAMS and AVESCO? PM if you do...

G'day Ray

I should appologise to RaceTime for calling him Racey, its a bad habit of mine (shortening names) and I will in future refer to to him as RaceTime and will try to refrain from shortening names :(

Formula Ford is hardly grass roots motorsport, it's a a lot closer to the top than the bottom. Grass roots motorsport is held at club level, by volunteers for enthusiastic amateurs. Formula Ford has a national championship with semi-professional teams and drivers.

This is a figure that utterly freaked me out the other day, but I was told that Formula Ford competitors at a state level have budgets of around $90,000 a year.... I know you could do it a lot cheaper than that, but whoah.....

Taken from the Formula Ford Web Site:

A new imported rolling chassis, including gearbox, will cost between $60,000 and $70,000, tax and freight paid.

A second hand rolling chassis (without engine) varies considerably, from approx. $7,500 for an older model to around $30,000 for a recent car.

You can build your own engine, from new or second hand components, available from nominated Ford dealers or wrecking yard. The engine regulations are tightly controlled and your engine must comply. If you do all the work an engine will cost around $6,000.

Many competitors choose to buy or lease engines from experienced engine builders, most of whom provide technical support at major meetings. You can expect to pay approximately $10,000 to $13,000, with second hand engines available for around $7,000. Most National level competitors choose to have their engines rebuilt every three to four meetings, costing around $2,000, depending on the amount of work required.

The category in Australia competes on the AVON ACB-10 racing tyre, available through outlets in each State. The National agent is Gordon Leven Motorsport Tyres in Sydney. The tyres are manufactured in England and the cost of a set of tyres for 2001 is $1,150. A supply and fitting service is available at every National and State Series meeting.

http://www.formulaford.com.au/generalinformation.htm

G'day RaceTime

Hmmm , is there any class of motor racing (except bikes <g>) that you can get into without winning lotto ??.

hehe , my budget at the moment would be somewhere around $ 200 a month :laugh:

It really depends on what you want in racing.

For sedans - HQ's are reasonably cheap, but you still need a well built engine and good tyres. Panels can be easily obtained from shopping centres errr I mean everywhere :)

Open wheelers - for close, even racing that soon shows the skills of the driver - Formula Vee.

Originally posted by RaceTime


For sedans - HQ's are reasonably cheap, but you still need a well built engine and good tyres. Panels can be easily obtained from shopping centres errr I mean everywhere :)



G'day RaceTime

I guess you know I was kidding, like I would ever have enough $$ to do any sort of racing, and at only 1.2m tall probably wouldnt get my CAMS license anyway <g>.

When was the last time you seen a HQ in a shopping centre btw ??, and I thought the HQ series was finished anyway ?

I drove a Holden HQ to a shopping centre not four weeks ago...

My nephew races HQ, my brother the new Falcon/Commodore class that's intended to replace HQs.

CAMS think the HQ's are finished - they aren't bothering to look at the size of the entry lists...take last weekends State Race Meeting at Phillip Island: 46 HQ's qualified, 33 Formula Vees, 24 Formula Fords (CAMS favourite category!!!) - they ain't dead yet!

As for an HQ in a shopping centre - this morning - there are 4 in this court alone! (road cars - not race cars) - the owneer of my web host races two of them regularly...

G'day Ray & RaceTime

Looks like I have been missinformed yet again :( , and I can honestly say I dont remember the last time I seen a HQ on the road.

Ray, any idea what its worth to enter a car in the new Falcon/Commodore events ??

My brother chose a Foulcan, but you would naturally go Commodore, I guess.

He reckons he spent about $12,000, but he has a workshop and can work deals with engine work and so on, built his own roll cage etc. The suspension and brake stuff is fairly special, brakes especially, and they cost a dollar or two. A lot depends, of course, on how much you pay for the basic car and how much work you can do for yourself. Not sure what tyre life he gets, but I can check some time for you.

Originally posted by Ray Bell
My brother chose a Foulcan, but you would naturally go Commodore, I guess.



G'day Ray

hehe , I thought you had made a typo for a second, but then realised it WAS spelled correctly :).

I will probably never be able to afford anything but tickets to the races, but I could alway's pinch the missus SS and chuck that in a race <g>.

I have a mate who is a mechanic and he does a lot of work on mustangs and also now the Falcon/Commodores so I can ask him about brake and tyre etc prices.

Thanx for the info :-)

Mick, the Falcon/Commodore class that Ray is describing is called Saloon Car Racing. They would have a website, but I don't know the address, try looking for a link at www.cams.com.au

The class is open to 3.8 VN & VP Commodores and 3.9 litre Falcons. They run a control tyre/brake/suspension package and the association would be able to inform you of what to use, where to get it and what to pay. You can buy a car ready to race for about $25,000 or you could build it yourself for about half that price.

If you can only afford $200 a month to go racing, then Saloon Cars aren't for you. HQs maybe, they're much cheaper now that all the heroes have progressed to Saloon Cars. You can buy a car ready to race for about 4 or 5 grand! There's a lot less panel bashing nowadays too, but they don't get invited to the big meetings anymore. Hey, that's OK cos they're a lot dearer than a state/club meeting anyway.

As a guide, I have a Datsun 1600 Historic Touring Car which i run on a budget of $400 a month. You could certainly do it for less, if you stick to local state/club meetings and keep it fairly stock. My 3 golden rules for cheap racing are:-
1. Modified cars cost a lot more to race than standard ones.
2. Big cars cost a lot more than small 4 cylinder cars.
3. Late model cars cost a lot more than 20-30 year old cars.

I hope this helps. I honestly believe you can go racing for $200 a month, just as long as you're not too ambitious. Motor racing is like sex, even if you don't come first, you're still having a great time. I always say that the bloke who finishes last in a race is having 100 times the fun of the bloke standing on the hill wishing he was out there. :)

isn't the saloon car series basically just the class A from Group E production Car racing in the early 90s, there should be more of it, it was a top class.

Originally posted by DAVID PATERSON

I hope this helps. I honestly believe you can go racing for $200 a month, just as long as you're not too ambitious. Motor racing is like sex, even if you don't come first, you're still having a great time. I always say that the bloke who finishes last in a race is having 100 times the fun of the bloke standing on the hill wishing he was out there. :)

G'day David

Thanx for all that info, much appreciated, if I wasnt such an old bugga I would probably give it a shot but I think I left me run too late.

Have to agree with your quotes Re Sex and finishing last :) , very good .

Originally posted by racer69
isn't the saloon car series basically just the class A from Group E production Car racing in the early 90s, there should be more of it, it was a top class.

Not at all.. I mentioned the brakes, they are very special, huge ventilated rotors, nothing like the standard stuff they had to run in Group E. I don't know all the ins and outs of them, but they have worked at achieving inter-marque parity, and this will always lead to costs in some area or other. They have a standardised chip, for instance, so there's another 'control' item that costs.

I agree with David, you can race for not very much, in fact, it could be with the right car that entry fees are your big bugbear. A rear-field Clubman would fit into that category, and sheer bravery and mods that you make yourself at no cost can add up to getting to the mid-field, the achievement of that goal being very satisfying and worthwhile.

In the right class you can run on cast-off tyres others have finished with, parts sourced virtually from the dump... it's true!

If the object is to just get onto the track, you can do it easily.

Ray, it sounds like you studied my early years of racing. A small 4 cylinder car built from cast offs and wrecks which I ran at the back of the field for years, for about $250 a month. In fact, entry fees were my greatest expense, by a good margin! Slowly i have developed the car and improved my driving to be up in the midfield now.

Mick, I'm in the Historic Racing Car Club, most of whom started racing in their '50s. Some active competitors are over 70. You're never too old.

G'day David

Appreciate all the info and it gives me some hope :).

But I want to drive a V8SC sook sook <g>

There are much more exciting things to drive than the V8 Supercars (I hate that title!) in Historics... have a look at some of the things they nailed together in the old days!

And the good thing is that you can still nail them together, if they are from pre-war parts and assembled in a pre-war fashion... 4.2 litres of Buick Straight eight in a car weighing 15cwt on live axles and crossplies must be fun!

David... I do frequent tips occasionally...

Do you reckon the 1000 would survive if the ALMS cars were to run there? I don't see they could take over that event if Cochrane pulled AVESCO out ... which wouldn't surprise me once he's got that gov't money...

I aske dthe question last night about running more events throughout the year, and what i was told is that there is an actual parlimentary act , called The Mount Panorama act(i think 1989), that only allows for 2 major race meeting per yera to be held on the mount. It has a lot do do with it being a public road and noise restrictions and so on. They didnt really go into it in great depth, only to say that it was better to have they act the way it is now than to try and change it, as it would be very difficult to get it through parliament mainly on environmental grounds (*&^%$ greenies).

So i cant really see the Lemans series ever getting a run on the mount, it would be awsome thoiugh if it did.

I asked about running the 12hour again angd they said that there was no other catagory in australian motorsport that could provide a big enough crowd at the moment to make a race profitable (except for the bikes which they are trying to run next easter, formula extreme)

The gov"t money would be going to council and not to King tony c

I'm sure that the kind of meeting they had at Adelaide at New Years (the format and all) would draw a huge crowd.

I didn't mean, by the way, that I thought Cochrane would get the money. I mean the power kick he'd get from making them spend it for him, then to walk out after they'd made the commitment. Nothing would surprise me with him...

There is another aspect to running a race meeting at Bathurst - and that is simply cost. I understand that investigations were done recently to look at running a State Championship meeting at the track to give Club Level people a shot at the track.

The cost very very quickly ballooned out so much it has been scrapped - and this was just the cost of hiring the bitumen, each ROOM that needed to be opened - IOW the current caretakers wanted every single cent they could possibly get from it.

Think the impression I got was greed

Re: Bathurst State Championship meeting- you'd have to get the pits opened, that'll cost you, then you have to get the officials up there, then you have to feed the officials....then you have to get the spectators, which sadly wouldn't happen. But then again, thye do run a number of hillclimbs and sprints up that at various stages of the year.

Re: You want to race on the cheap? Go out to Archerfield Speedway, for less that $500 you have yourself a Sigma, ready to roll for the whole season, heck, you can even split the cost with your co-driver! The cost of a HQ- the car that won last years QLD Championship was recently scooped up for $2000....bargain.

Saloon Cars- Ray- Robert must be doing it on the cheap! Some of those things cost more like $30,000! Then again, they provide some fantastic action, and will be a very big thing by the start of next season. There is some Saloon Car stuff on at http://www.qrda.asn.au - more to come very shortly.

Crash, as I understand it - the costs for Bathurst along these lines:

Pit Lane - $$$, Oh you want race control - $$$. What you want the secretaries office as wel? $$$. Oh and you need timing - OK $$$. Hmmm scrutineering bay, sure $$$. Commentary rooms - yes we can provide those keys $$$

Every room appears to have a cost attached to it - unlike most race tracks - you hire the venue, you get the infrastructure - apparently not so with Mt Panorama.

And now in MN today their grand plan is revealed.... Superbikes and Sports Cars, with them possibly bypassing the top of the mountain, by making the cars turn left at Griffins and through the winery. Much like the Bugati circuit at Le Mans.

What do you think of that? I think it will cut down on the number of drunken louts on top of the mountian :)

No, they'll either still be there to camp, or they'll simply migrate...

So this is where the intelligence lies? Take away the best part of the circuit and add to your problems by requiring spectator areas where none were needed before? Adding enormously to the maintenance costs of the joint... what brains!

Hang on, Griffins, that's pretty much the top of the Mountain anyway, isn't that where the Reid Park gate is? Don't you mean Tomlins'?

And now in MN today their grand plan is revealed.... Superbikes and Sports Cars, with them possibly bypassing the top of the mountain, by making the cars turn left at Griffins and through the winery. Much like the Bugati circuit at Le Mans.

Well according to the people in charge of the mount this shortened version of the mount will never go ahaed.

The question was asked at hte meeting about the possibility of a short circuit to run the gikes on and to use for club days and there was a resounding NO to this prospect. Apparently it will cost the council more to build this short circuit than it willl to construct all new pit garages.
One of the main reasons for also not wanting to do this track is they didnt want to take away the atmosphere and the prestige of Mount Panorama by making it into a short circuit as well.

If they decide they want to run sportscars up there that will mean they either drop the V8 supercars (cant see that happening) or run them on the same weekend as the V8s as they are only allowed to hold 2 major race meetings a year on Mount Panorama. And they are detirmined to get the bikes back at easter. According too a survey that they commisioned the bike crowd spend nearly twice as much money in town than the V8 crowd, and do less damage:(

Why not run the bikes and Sports Cars together at Easter then? There are four days of holiday, and it was done this way in the times of our youth...

Thats a good idea. Have the world superbikes on the sunday and either run the Sportscars on the sunday or if they can't get enough lighting then run it on the easter monday. Can't say i agree with these track modifications. It was fine for the bikes at Easter in 2000, and isn't the magic of bathurst ( now the proper conrod staright is gone ) the top of the mountain, which wouldn't be there if the proposal goes through.

Griffins Bend is the right hand corner at the top of Mountain Straight. Usually called by the sponsor name only, unlike the rest of the circuit which is sponsor name then corner name.

A short circuit of Bathurst would never work. Just wouldn't be the same. Like trying to run a V8Supercar around Oran Park North (which is a figure of eight using the bridge).

Corner names at Bathurst are:

Hell, first left after the start, end of Pit Straight and leading into Mountain Straight.

Tomlins' or Quarry Bend, the right at the end of Mountain Straight, known for a long time as XL Bend.

The Cutting.. no need to describe this. Then the cars (or bikes0 climb Griffin Mount to the Reid Park Gates, swoop through past Sulman Park (a latter-day name) to McPhillamy Park, face the Skyline and drop through the Esses to The Dipper, with the last tight bend being Forrest's Elbow leading onto Conrod Straight.

A faux pas by Bill Murray in the forties led to the Pit Corner being popularly named Murray's Corner at that time, this being where the cars choose between darting off towards Bathurst or staying on the circuit and turning into Pit Straight again.

My idea would see untimed practice for bikes and cars on Thursday, then bike qualifying on Friday with night acclimatisation for cars Friday night, then Saturday would be the bike races.

Sunday would be for the cars to race, with an event for Sports Cars that would go well into the night. Monday would be to sweep up the drunks.

Pop quiz Ray- who was Forrest's Elbow named after? And also, whose conrod gave Conrod Straight it's name?

Ray, I'm with Elephino, for some time now the old XL bend has been called Griffin's bend.

Crash, Forrest was a motorcycle racer who came off approaching the elbow and slid along the roadway, grinding off his elbow cap in the process. It hurts just thinking about it.:mad:

I'm with David and Elephino on Griffins Bend, but Ray is also right, as I distinctly remember a piece of wall on top of the mountain wearing the red lettering of Griffins something or rather..

MADMICK, are you older than Paul Newman (no, not Sam)? Coz he's been racing Le Mans through his sixties and I think still races now. I read a great article where he tells of the excitement of driving a Ford Mustang at over 300 kmh down Mulsanne straight in the pitch black French night, and trying to spot the braking makers through the car shaking the windscreen and dash so much.

Man if you're still younger than Paul Nemwan, get your butt out there. I'll be cheerin you on at Malalla! :)

Originally posted by DAVID PATERSON
Ray, I'm with Elephino, for some time now the old XL bend has been called Griffin's bend.

Does calling a 48/215 Holden an 'FX' make it so? No way! The FX tag was never applied until well after the car was out of production simply as a means of distinguishing it from the FJ and because people didn't know the truth about the model designations Holden was using.

So if you want to call Quarry or Tomlins Bend Griffins, then you will be doing this same thing! I know the 'Tomlins' desgnation is very rarely used, but it was what the residents of Bathurst in the forties called it. Quarry is probably more accurate.

I never heard any mention of 'Griffin' until I was at the motorcycle meeting about 1965. Those bike commentators used the name all the time, like they knew what it meant, and so does John Medley in his book about the circuit, and he's been a regular spectator at Bathurst since about 1950.

He describes the climb out of The Cutting as Griffin's Mount. Strangely, this runs past a quarry...

So I feel obliged to educate you young chaps (and girls?) about this issue. Into the eighties and nineties, commentators have typically become younger and younger, and more ambitious and all-knowing and devoid of historical knowledge.

So where did I get the Tomlins name from? Mike Kable, Bathurst born and bred, resided there well into the fifties and went to race meetings from the very first. He would have known who 'Tomlins' was, and I will suggest it was the resident owning the land on the outside of the bend, the one whose entry gate is right there.

Crash, Forrest was a motorcycle racer who came off approaching the elbow and slid along the roadway, grinding off his elbow cap in the process. It hurts just thinking about it.:mad:

Yes, Jack Forrest, a very well known rider of the early years at the circuit.

Conrod Straight was named much later than you would think. I think it was about 1951, but I'm not sure whose conrod flew out the side to be immortalised. My feeling is it was that of a Maserati, but it may have been Frank Kleinig's Hudson. I will endeavour to find out...

Ray: I've read it in that Bathurst: The Craddle of something or rather.... sadly I only had it out on loan from the library, but I would so like to own that book...

Yes, Bathurst - the Cradle of Australian Motor Racing... I keep it by the computer along with the AGP book. Well worth the $90...

One book that is in every bookstore (but is still a bit pricey) is that one on the history of Australian Motorcycle racing, it looks like pretty good stuff...

Back to Bathurst- how brilliant was the original goat track of a Conrod Straight? Wowsers..it had more bends than the top of the mountain. Also, you've got to smirk at them painting a line down the middle of the track to divide the slow and the fast cars, they should bring that one back :)

There is just so much in the book, the history of how it came into being, the 800+ photos, all the results of all the practice sessions and all the races from 1938 to 1973, just fantastic.... and I believe there are very few left.