Best Driver Never To Win Bathurst

Who do yo believe is the best driver Never to win Bathurst...
I personally think there is a few George Fury, Leo Geohgan, Alan Jones etc..

That's easy - Fangio - but I guess that's not really what you mean :)

You hit on it there... Leo Geoghegan, he would have to go very close to being the one.

But then again (as I'm reminded by the post mentioning the Daimler Dart), he did win (co-driving with Pete) the 6-hour race that preceded the current enduro in 1962. So, effectively, he has notched a win.

The best driver who has won Bathurst I know quite well, and I doubt that any will guess it. Clues? He won it only once, but had fastest lap several times, his co-driver often did the damage and his most common co-driver was also a winner with someone else.

It's funny thinking on this subject, for the drivers you think about who should have won mostly have done! Maybe not when they should have, though.

Another 'best driver' who didn't win but did compete there (and Marshal's comment is very close to the mark!) was Stirling Moss. Whether Jack Brabham should be on the list of those who should have? I don't really know...

Ah yes, here's one: Brian Muir.

I think it would be me.But I got pole once..........................



well you didn't say it had to be the 500/1000.

Another one would be Tim Schencken. Of course Tim is a legend in his own mind

Nobody will believe this... another one on my list... a great driver, very good around Bathurst (once qualified a car for the late and great Paul Hawkins because he wasn't fast enough!)... Bill Brown.

Looked good, even in Hawko's hat!

Ray, are you suggesting Kevin Bartlett as the best driver who did win Bathurst. That's what I've deduced from your cryptic clues.

No, not at all... though he has to be very high on the list. But I don't think he set many fastest laps, if any at all. KB ran all those years in Alfas, too, drove flat out all day, but nowhere near the V8 pace.

Another clue: His co-driver only ever won once.

What about Roberto Ravaglia, by the way, he set the place alight for no wins...

Ray,

Can you narrow down the time period as the next clue?

His co-driver only ever won once, is that with your bloke or once more with someone else?

I suggested KB because he was very good, he excelled in open wheelers (sure to put him in your good books) and he only won once (with Goss) and Goss only won once more (with Hahne).

Why bother? Nobody will work it out... or will they?

Okay, between 1963 and 1982

I don't think he drove all those years. And he never once drove an open wheeler. I reckoned from 1963 to about 1972 he was the best Touring Car driver in Australia, with Pete Geoghegan knocking on the door to be nearly equal.

Why bother, because it's fun to solve crytic puzzles about an interesting topic.

OK, Norm Beechey never won Bathurst, Bob Jane won four times and so did Moffat, so of course they are all out. It's not Gibson because he raced open wheelers. It's not Bond or McPhee either, because their co-drivers didn't win with anyone else. Nor is it Goss, he won twice.

I don't know if KB got any fastest laps but he had several poles.

Forget these lesser drivers... in fact, I'll send you some soap to wash your mouth out over some of them.

Why have you restricted your field to those who raced against Geoghegan in the Mustang?

Another clue? He also drove the Improved Production car Pete Geoghegan had just sold.

Not too sure about past drivers from decades ago, but out of the current crop, I'd give my vote to Glenn Seton.

Yes, I certainly should have thought of him...

Any more guesses about who I think was the best?

I have to say it's a very close thing, Brock really eclipsed him later on...

I jumped on this thread thinking "I know exactly who should have won Bathurst, but has never made it"....Glenn Seton....then I started scrolling down, and thought, "oh gee" they have gone off again about drivers I have never heard of, I may as well press the back button, WHEN...YES...thank you DNQ

I am not the only one! Glenn Seton - no doubt about it.

I was also born too late... just imagine what it must have been like to see those pre-war cars and drivers in the flesh?

And to see a Bathurst with barbed-wire fences, patches in the roadway, no white lines at the edge and Holden S4s?

Well, I did see them, and I've contributed a reasonable list of probable contenders:

Leo Geoghegan (first mentioned by colinbond0
Brian Muir
Bill Brown

The other one that seems a probability has come from DNQ:

Glenn Seton

That's a fair crop, but there may be more...

I'd rather call Glenn Seton the best driver yet to win Bathurst than best driver never to win.

As for Ray's mysteryman and one time Bathurst winner, I'm just about stumped, what I've deduced from his clues has just about eliminated everyone.

I am also too young to remember most of these drivers. However, I have heard about them. Of the current crop, (I know they haven't been there often) Radisich and Ambrose (Marcos hasn't been there at all so I guess he doesn't qualify). The Rat should've won in '99, although I suppose these guys are also YET to win.

I reckon AJ is a contender too.

Scott Pruett and Tommy Kendall as well. They qualifies for the category.

Wakefield :)

ok, onto Ray's cryptic clues...absolutely no idea

He won it only once, but had fastest lap several times, his co-driver often did the damage and his most common co-driver was also a winner with someone else.

OK, John French, KB, H. Firth, Jacky Ickx?

Absolutely bugger if i know!:eek:

Not on a par with Moss or Brabham, I'm afraid...

There were some European tyros brought here in the seventies, who were they? Fitzpatrick and Ickx had wins, so they're not among them... Gerry Marshall ('fraid not), Derek Bell - yes, cousin Derek should be on the list - Roberto Businello? Did he come?

George Fury
Masahero (?) Hasemi (anyone who gets pole and fastest lap in a World title race should be on the list...)
Derek Bell
Doug Whiteford

Many to choose from...

G'day Ray

I got a deer with no eyes regarding your mystery man , and although I am a Holden Nut 100%, I would love to see Glenn Seton win it and am sure he will in the next few years if he dont spit the dummy and give up first.

Ray, Could it be John Harvey?

I have to admit I almost cried when Seto's car stopped just short of his maiden win. Back then he was super quick and really deserved to win.

Redback,

Funny I have thought of this all day today while at work and I wondered about Harvey, but didn't know enough of his early years. He must have won with Brock? Or was that just Richards and Perkins with Harvey in the second car? I can't remember.

I do think that Harvey was under rated and took care of the machinery unlike Brock. He was the brains behind the HDT road cars as well. Plus I believe he was quicker than Brock on many occassions, as were Perkins and Richards.

Harvey Won in 1983 with Brock and Perkins

Colin,

That could still be significant as Ray nominated the cut off date at 1983. And he won with two others. I'm clutching at straws.

My memory is shot. Did Bob Morris win at all? Could it be Morris? Or Murray Carter? Probably not Murray!

Ray get back here.

Ray I am stumped at this too could it be Bob Forbes or John McCormack

Bob Morris won in 1976 with John Fitzpatrick.

Forbes or McCormack never won.

Having given it some more thought (which is difficult for me) I'd say it would have to be John French.

Colin,

Didn't he win in '74 with John Goss in the wet?

French won with Johnson in 81, Bartlett won with Goss in the wet.

Crash

I'm loosing the plot here.

Bloody hell Ray, where are you?

Give a bloke a break! Had to go to town for a meeting and do some shopping... why are you having so much trouble?

Who won once only, and had a co-driver who won with someone else another year?

Who had the skill to set fastest lap year after year - apart from Brock?

Look, I have to say that Frenchy would be a bit of a good choice, but it's not him...

Remember, our hero also raced a car that had come from Ian Geoghegan (this is in normal racing, not the HF/Armstrong/etc enduro), and he was there from the sixties onwards.

Come on blokes, give it a shot! Who hasn't got a list of winners over the years?

Firth- nope
Reynolds- nope
Bo Seton?
Midge Bosworth? nope
Bobby Holden? I doubt it
Aaltonen? i doubt it
Freddy Gibson - nope
Barry Mulholland? I doubt it
Colin Bond?
Tony Roberts?
Moffat? :)
Brock? :)
Pete Geoghegan? nope
Goss and KB? nope
Brian Sampson??
Bobby Morris or Fitzy? nope
Jacky Ickx?
Jimmy Richards?

If the answer aint in there, you've been yanking our chain :)

The answer is in there. No doubt about it.

But there are some in there who shouldn't be...

Anyway, I guess I should give another clue... as far as I can see, he raced at Bathurst until 1984. Later he returned with a close involvement with another top-line driver.

re: Marshal and Fangio- well Juan Fangio II (his nephew) ran in 1987 with Gary Brabham, but I don't think that he is the best ever on the mountain ;)

Some imported drivers were right flops, actually, as mentioned with the return of Paul Hawkins in 1968.

Actually, thinking back to those early days again, many of the drivers then would have walked all over some of those given top billing today. The place was very much the land of the brave. Ian or Morrie Fergusson once went off on the inside of McPhillamy Park and finished up hundreds of yards down the hill... the classic launch of Tony Roberts over Skyline would frighten any of them!

Conrod with six feet less width, embankments or gutters to each side separating the cars from the paddocks and the wire fences... and S4 Holdens, old Cortina GTs at war with each other, and the few Studebakers that ran out of brakes after two trips down Conrod.

These blokes have got it easy, so the 'best that never won' can't come from the past fifteen years!

Actually a lot of septics have been flops over the years, Johny Rutherford, Janet Guthrie, John Andretti...

Rutherford was one I thought of... he got to Skyline, as I recall, and died in the bum!

I guess Skyline could do that to you on your first racing lap if you haven't taken the time to do a lap beforehand!

I'll go for Brian Sampson

No, Sammo raced open wheelers, so he's not Ray's man.

i think there is too many to mention but Glenn Seton has to be one of the favourites.

Ray,
Is it Richard Mork ?

Its Homer Simpson

What about Bill Attard

Jacky Ickx

I'm disappointed. Didn't anybody know that Barry Seton took over the Cortina GT that Pete (and Leo) Geoghegan raced when they got their Lotus Cortina?

Glenn Seton is good because he has the genetics of his father, folks, the best Touring Car driver in Australia in the sixties, with the possible exception of Wayne Mahnken.

Oh, did I say something that surprised you there?

Sure did Ray, big surprise there. I knew Bo Seton was good, but I've never thought of him as one of the greats. I'm surprised anyone would suggest someone other than Pete Geoghegan as THE touring car driver of the sixties. Of course I'm not old enough to remember then, but all the history I've seen or heard proclaims Geoghegan as the man! Though, of course as they say, history is written by the victors.

Who was Seton's regular co-driver who won once with someone else?

What did Bo do with the ex-Geoghegan Cortina? Was it the GT with which Pete won the last Appendix J ATCC?

Bo was reunited with his '83 Bathurst Capri at last year's historic Lakeside and was given the oppurtunity to do some demo laps. After each lap, his times got better and better and his smile got wider and wider. Steve Land is now actively trying to encourage him to get into Historic Touring car racing.

P.S. Wayne who? The name Mahnken is vaguely familiar but i don't recall him or his exploits, any chance of a quick history lesson.

Okay, David, it's like this... Pete was brilliant, a superb driver, but Bo had none of the backing that Pete did and still achieved a lot. His smoothness was something to appreciate, really special.

Wayne Mahnken was something different. He had a formerly crashed S4 Holden that he used on the road. At Longford, a real power circuit, on Pirelli road radials, he laced the HD of Boote, which was a spare-no-expense car for racing only on racing tyres. That was one example.

Later he was mechanic for Terry Allen with his Camaro... what a waste!

As for the Cortina, yes, it was the same one Pete won in at Lakeside, but he didn't race it for long. His co-driver who won with another was Fred Gibson. As is well known, he was nothing like as good as Bo.

Steve was telling me the other week about his encouragement.

Completely off topic, but anyway, I visited Lionel Ayres this evening. Boy does he have some photos worth seeing. Not to mention something very special in the garage, that I hope we will all see racing soon.

The sub?

It is indeed, and yellow too. It looks about 90% complete and boy oh boy what an awesome bit of kit. Lionel is both very excited and proud at the same time. :)

If he'd taken this long to get his TC ready to run, he would never have had a racing career!

It's cost him a good quid too, I've no doubt, including the cost of cornering the market on TC4V engines.