Dont read this unless you have a Ford Racing Car in your Garage!!

With a couple of Ford racing cars sitting in our garage,i was very impressed by a recent race at Snetterton for the Toyo Tyres Racing Saloons,it must have been the full grid!
I contacted Project 888 Racing to see what their programme was for 2009,also to see if it fitted my criteria as follows:-
1 No expensive co-ordinators registration/club membership fees.
2 Premier circuits,Brands,Combe,Silverstone,Oulton etc,perhaps a European circuit,no kart circuits without toilets near Calais!
3 No slicks or expensive list1b tyres were you also have to buy wets as well,since they dont work in the rain.
4 No calender of expensive twin race format meetings,hanging around all day Sunday for your second race,single race meetings or two races on the same day if possible.

Before the usual suspects post with their idea of what series we should be doing,the following also apply:-

1 Racing with only steel bodied saloons
2 No mid race pitstops where you have to run around the car,dont want to share the car either.
3 Not a series where most of the rounds are at one circuit ie Combe,Lydden.
4 No problem racing north of Watford.
The Toyo Series ticked most of my boxes!With their contacts with MSVR their portfolio exsists more or less as i wanted.
1 30 pound reg. fee including club membership,Project888 RMS is an MSA reg club.
2 A set of control tyres for an escort costs less than 200 pounds.
3 MSVR meetings for 2009 have been expanded to cover more dates than 2008
4 Entries from 140 pounds.

I know that my wants might not suit all,its a bit like shopping at Waitrose or Aldi,its a choice.
In in my conversations with Julian and John at Project 888 RMS we discussed the number of potential Ford Racing Cars in the Uk,from Mustangs,Cortinas,Escorts,Fiestas,Anglias and Capris,in specs from Group N to full race.If we wanted to run races just for Fords we could do that. Filling the grid would be an imperative,but we could join in the TTRS races if there are not enough of us{and we meet their regs}
Contact them if you like the idea,PM me for details or contact me if you want to discuss their proposal,PM me with a contact phone number.i will get back to you.
Before "keyboard rage" kicks in with "another new series,the last thing we need" thread,i see this as extension of exsisting series,with a switched on race organiser,it could get cars out that would otherwise gather dust next year.

there's a fast ford championship already...

Fast Ford Championship finished some years ago,the current version of it doesnt fit the features in thread,if you read it!

vjay, before this kicks off into the scenario you describe would you like to declare any interest you may have in this, I.E. are you thinking of doing the organisation and how far down the line you might be or is it still all a thought at the moment?

Organisation as you see in the thread,Project 888 RMS can do it if a full grid could be obtained,can we put you down? My interest is that we would run two cars in the series. Have basic details most of which are on the thread,when we have got sufficient interest Project888 RMS can do the rest.

From what i have seen of Toyos , its made up of 75% production Bmws! Why filter out the few Fords already there?
BTW, double headers surely make long trips worthwhile.

Interesting. As I understand there are currently 60 registered Ford Saloon competitors of which recently only 15 to 20 are prepared to come out. I have looked at Ford Saloons but been put off by registration fee and BRSCC organisation.

Do you have any regs or class structure in mind?

fords are not bmws,not everyone wants twin races. about choice!!! Its about putting cars out at rate that allow more people to race,do some sums,compare what other championships might charge.

Forgive me, I'm a little confused here. (Not unusual). :)

But, are you saying that you want to start a Ford only championship based on regs similar to the Toyo championship, or are you saying you'd like a class of racing in that championship, devoted to the blue oval?

It sounds nice on paper but I'm not too sure about putting a nice Mk1 Escort or similar on the same bit of tarmac as a hot hatch Fiesta for more than one reason.

From what i have seen of Toyos , its made up of 75% production Bmws! Why filter out the few Fords already there?
BTW, double headers surely make long trips worthwhile.

Thats been covered elsewhere on this forum I think - as they are oversubscribed isn't makeup about the BMW drivers getting their entries in first, rather than reflective of registrations. Point stands as far as filling an already capacity grid though. They are buying more track time and splitting the classes across it I presume until it stands alone? So that frees up slots for more non-bmw's to play maybe.

Ours is too old for this sort of thing, but good luck to you vjay. Don't you want more modern cars than MK1 Escorts & Cortinas to fit that bill though? Especially if you start out as a class in the Toyos - A Cort would look a bit odd sat with all them!

If you are another class you'll probably need to enter the races before Christmas to get in! :rotate:

It sounds nice on paper but I'm not too sure about putting a nice Mk1 Escort or similar on the same bit of tarmac as a hot hatch Fiesta for more than one reason.

Alternatively the opportunity to race a Mustang SC might be just the thing for an old bloke like me. ;)

The proposal is that it is possible there are lots of racing fords in the country,a lot of them not being used? If enough people got to-gether Project 888 RMS who run Toyo saloons and BMW prods, could run a series,dedicated to fords,classes etc havent been decided,all things could be possible if enough interest. Perhaps a historic class might be an option, there has got be a lot of interest in Fords there are about 5 magazines about them,capris and MK1 escorts sit alright with me and the more modern cars,i cant see a problem.

That answers my question, thanks. :beer:

But apart from the format and the tyres it does look like the BRSCC Ford championship and as for classic Fords, they are also included in that championship.

if its not the same format,has different tyres,much cheaper, then i cannot see any similarity with the brscc ford championship? This would be a series,lets get this straight,the whole process is to try and produce a series that strips out costs if possible to reduce up front fees, tyre prices and entry fees. If you are all happy with what you are paying then forget it!

As a marshal, I just wish the first thought wasn't always 'let's have another series for this little niche', rather 'which existing series can we run as a class in?' As always it's taken for granted that we'll turn up, but the more stuff that gets created the fewer of us there are for ever expanding calendars. It's already been said that there's already a Ford only series, and if that's not enough then there are other categories with reasonable regs that you could run with. In which case, and in the absence of a really good business case for this I'll just trot out my usual hope. No more new series until someone has properly ratified everything that already exists. Sorry.

Plus who really enjoys one make series?

Well, I tread this because I have a Ford in my garage, but I'm happy with what I'm doing so I wish you luck.

Still looks much like the Ford series Though. Why not run a class in that?

I've now got access to borrow a Ford (hopefully ;)) but I wouldn't want to be racing against just other Fords, if we are talking about historics then I don't ever remember any one make saloon series but then again I'm quite young.

Hi vijay48 what Fords are you taking to TTRS then as i have one in garage but Ford saloons is the only place to go

The whole proposal was based "business type model",next year might be tough to have the money for racing, i appreciate there are other options,the exsisting Ford Championship is great,although the last two rounds have been a bit thin, expensive? I know what it will cost next year and that basis,entries,tyres etc, TTRS will a lot cheaper,it could have a full grid Fords if enough interest/entries,any type of Race Ford. I know it wont suit all,but the whole idea is to get cars that might not be out next season on the grid as part of exsisting set-up,so other brothers in orange can rest assured they wont be stretched even further. Tyre prices are good,must be ok,lots of championships use them,see saved you money already,pm me ,i will talk to you with more details. After all we have exsisted series etc for MG,BMW,TRIUMPH.VW why not a Ford one more people can afford?

I tell you something Vjay and I have to take my hat of to the TTRS boys you are damned right about the costs and something has to be done and I predict they have started a business model that other clubs and organisations must surely follow or die. To just keep whacking entries up year on year out in line with inflation and above will no longer cut ice. If it goes up much more I'm out for one.

Cue new thread. "Don't read this unless you have a Chevy in the garage." :rofl:

Now now dont be silly Peter you have no idea what I have in my garage. ;-) I was commenting in the general ethos of the post i.e. value for money racing irrespective of what cars you happen to be racing, £205 for 15 minutes racing at Brands is now just simply too much for many people.

value for money racing irrespective of what cars you happen to be racing, £205 for 15 minutes racing at Brands is now just simply too much for many people.

Agreed, which is why I don't do it. ;)

Al,fords do V8s,there is a v8 Sierra up north, V8 Falcons in Oz,that would be a star entry!

Vjay, you might hit a richer vein by working out why the Ford Saloon series registrants aren't coming out, I don't think they are in here.

Do we take it from this that TTRS are planning split grids next year, so you have space to fill? (unless a miracle occurs and you find 30 cars to run separately).

If that's the case then presumably those cars will need to meet the TTRS regs, which a number of those Ford Saloons won't?

Either way I suspect you will have more success approaching people direct rather than this forum. Most people have already made their decision on here it seems.

I think there is some confusion here though. I thought we were talking production cars but then there's a mention of a V8 Sierra. Most of the V8 conversions I'm aware of are Rover V8s mainly because the Ford block is too heavy for the chassis. That said there was the Piranha in SA. However I think it only fair that some sort of criteria, apart from being a Ford chassis is provided.

Wasn't there a Production V8 Sierra in SA?

For the Past 3 Meetings now the Ford Saloons Have a Max of grids of 15 cars. Premium Circuits like Brands Hatch we had 16 cars. The are like said earlier 60 Cars Registered .. And we cant get a decent grid.. Grids are 50% down from last year.

This Prob has something to do with it :

Ford Saloons Entry for Season : £245.00 ( incl £145 for tv coverage )
08 Rounds of Racing : £2405.00
Brscc Membership : £150.00
So before we even start on the track : £2800.00
Now add on travelling expenses.. Fuel.. We are into £3000.00

When this is presented to BRSCC / Ford Racing .. No one wants to know..

People can't afford race entries at £315.00 that is totally unacceptable.

Unless BRSCC / Ford Racing listen there will not be a grid next year

That £145 for TV coverage is a ruddy joke is that a one off or every meeting? I would refuse to pay it, if you all refused what would they do?

i think the tv levy is included in the reg.fee which must be payed at the start of the season,when the season is over you can buy the video for 20 pounds?

Wasn't there a Production V8 Sierra in SA?

Tim just MOTed a MG 55 reg plate with a Ford V8 engine in it.:D

There was a South African V8 Sierra the XR8 which was made in very small numbers much more common was the Essex V6 engined model with Type 9 box which may have some milage in doing one. There was one of those on eBay a little while back for under a grand, I nearly bid on it in a moment of madness!!! There is also the Mercur 2.4 turbo mustang engined Seirra, I started building one of those once with a Ford Motorsport prepared shell but for some reason I abandoned it and sold it all on. I had a good look at the V8 Seirra at Oulton as it came out with our CMS as a guest entry, looked a great bit of kit actually and very well screwed together. A mate of mine has built him self a two door with Rover engine and a Capri with a Small Block Chevy, bit sacrilicous from a Ford mans standpoint I would have thought! We also haev a giy in our club building a V8 Capri wcomplete with Ric Wood engine for our CMS series in fact Vjay if you cannot get this off the ground all you Ford guys would be more than welcome out with the CMS boys who are hopefully going to revamp the series next year and also get some more decent entry fees, speak with Dennis Bassom who posts here.

I think it would be fantastic to grab some Fords into TTRS and if that makes it possible to run split grid races with capacity fields its even better.
What I cant understand is why you want to run in a field of just Ford cars. Last race I saw consisted of cars mostly running a second a lap different to each other and a very strung out field. In TTRS theres always someont to race with.
TTRS has proved its what a lot of us want. If you wanna go faster then upgrade to Hot Hatch or something.. Hang on... nobody does!! ;)

Now that again is interesting,its not all about entry fees in total,in the Ford Championship i feel to have pay nearly 500 pounds at the start is the season is an pain,also the fact that control tyres are expensive and the fact you need wets as well raises the costs even more. A sopering thought would be that if the Ford championship was buying its grid,with 13-15 cars the entry fees would need to be around 500 pounds+,so perhaps the brscc is not so bad,a fact of life is one way or the other the Project 888 RMS will cheaper.
You pay your money----------------------?

Just thought i would slip in here with this. http://www.ready2race.co.uk/adverts.php?id=88

It doesn't solve everything but i think it might be a step in the right direction. I would race there myself but i fear i have a CAMSO date that weekend.

Don't have a problem with one make series as such. VWs can be pretty good racing, the Fast Fords are often enjoyable and the old Alfa series was fab. What would make me happy is if someone would weild a hatchet through club racing put all the similar things together. If one of those were to be this Ford series then fair enough. What I don't support is the 'lets have another series' which will probably go through 2 years of development from the original 'promising grids' (about 12) and 4 years of slow decline with maybe some good racing for a year or three in the middle.

Club racing needs to become all-inclusive and sustainable. Continued niche-market, intorsprective and often intended as profit making (although that last doesn't seem to be the case outlined here) has to end.

If this series is to run, then make it a class in something else. If it has legs and support it will outgrow it's host series and then can branch out on its own.

Best thing you could do is visit/join the Wealden Racing forum. It is as far as I know the only forum that caters (unoficially) for the Ford Saloon Car race series and there is currently a lot of talk about the current situation regarding race entries and everything associated with it. Sugest you take a look and/or get to talk with some of the drivers on the site or at one of their forthcoming rounds:burn:

It is possible that the proposed series would have support from a major name in the Ford "world",this sponsorship would not be in the form where it goes into the organisers pot,it will save the competitors money. PM me for details of this and any other issues.

I'm preparing a newer Fiesta for 2009 and was planning to come out and play again in the BRSCC Ford Saloons, but as that championship is now very expensive with club fees, registration/tv fees, race fees etc; i'm now open to better value for money options elsewhere - Especially if no-one else turns up next year!

I've done a couple of races last year with the BARC SEC Tin Tops which worked out OK and was good value with sensible regulations -it would be better still if there were rounds at a greater variety of circuits.

The "toyo" proposal has a variety of circuits,only steel bodied saloons in the races, haved pm you for more info.

BARC SEC tin tops will have more venues next year, possibly with something very special.

Incidentally they did go to Lydden, Silverstone, Castle Combe, Rockingham and Brands Hatch this year.

Vjay,the Tin Tops does fit most of the criteria that you want,plus the people involved are a great bunch and the leading car at the moment is virtualy standard so everone stands a chance.The good thing about is at the end of each season the organisers will walk the paddocks,listen and take on board all the points raised by the RACERS,something very rare maybe because most of the committee are racers.I have raced with the Tin Tops and DMN series for one or two seasons,maybe more,never had a dissagreement with them,quite the reverse and as far as racing in this day and age,they keep the expenses down.

We did one tin top round,no problems with the concept,but it had every type of closed wheel car on the grid,from national hot rods {or whatever they are called this week} to caterhams etc.I am sure the people who run it are great,i know some of them,dont be offended if i say its not for me,we want to run with steel bodied saloons with regs,not "run what you brung" The Ford is probably the most common car currently in race spec in this country,so a series with carefully controlled costs and good value tyres is not a total waste of time if it gets people out racing next season.

Ah that must have been at Silverstone. Since then the intermarque (formerly sports/saloons) have run seperately to the tin tops. If you look in this week's Motorsport News you can see there were only steel bodied saloons in the Cannons tin top races at Lydden on Saturday. One race was one by a MG ZR, the other by a Mk.2 Ford Escort, so you would have done quite well. Why not come and try again on October 4th at Lydden (two races for £150) or November 9th at Brands Hatch (two races for £190).

I have a m8 car13 he is called on here that has raced an MGZS 180 on the same set of Toyo 888's all season at least 12 races and there is at least 1 race left in them, as a spectator and marshal i would honestly like to see mixed make grids rather than a lot of old fords this just my opinon

Alan

The 888's are great, I have done 5 races on mine and they look like when I put them on but compared with my Dunlop Formula R historic tyres they are brilliant and predictable, I would like our club to go over to them in all races as they are a good price and far more predictable than the Dunlops which start going off bad on my cars after about 6 laps or so.

One of the major savings in this proposal was the price of the Toyo tyres,i know that brscc 924s and alfas now run on them,it does seem odd to have a championship like the modified fords which run on dunlop control tyres,yet also have the proviso to run any other dunlop tyre in the wet. Perhaps someone could explain,it seems to be the worst of all worlds? I assume toyos are ok in the wet?

One of the major savings in this proposal was the price of the Toyo tyres,i know that brscc 924s and alfas now run on them,it does seem odd to have a championship like the modified fords which run on dunlop control tyres,yet also have the proviso to run any other dunlop tyre in the wet. Perhaps someone could explain,it seems to be the worst of all worlds? I assume toyos are ok in the wet?

From what i have seen the toyo's seems fine in normal wet conditions but heavy rain needs the full wets this is just what i have observed being with the team in the pits Car13 (Peter Burchill) would be able to confirm this i think

We will probably be able to answer that after this forthcoming wet weekend at Silverstone :-( Oh and the TTRS are in Spa so that will really put them to the test!!!!

I used 888's for the first time at Silverstone in the TTRS race in September. It was dry and I was stunned at the grip. Used Dunlops in last years Birkett, but the 888's were far better! Alan Meaker of TOYO tells me that they are also good in the wet, although I suppose he would!

Having spent the last 4 years racing in a single model (XJS) series, it is a real breath of fresh air racing against different makes and models.

I am sure that many series are going to struggle next year, I don't think TTRS will be one of them. Don't worry too much about oversuscribed grids, often they have managed to buy more track time.

Would be nice to have a few more Jaguars out there next year!

Well I was at Slverstone in the Group 1 race in the peeing rain tippy toeing around on horrible hard old Dunlop Historic Formula thingies and a BMW prepared to PBMW spec and running on Toyos in my race (don't ask!) drove round the outside of me like I was standing still. Watch this and see what I mean, mind you the one that did'nt see the chequered flag at the end of the race and over took me after I backed off did'nt fair so well!:rofl: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMxL7HPcsKU

BTW if you bought your Jags out with us in Pre-93's (this was a pre83 race incidently and you could also do that) you would get to run in a big capacity class without having to have M3's in the same class. We have a proposal put forward to go onto Toyos.

I should have said the proposal to go over to Toyos is for the other championships as we are already on them in Pre-93's of course.

Alan Meaker of TOYO tells me that they are also good in the wet, although I suppose he would
He's almost right, they are very good in the wet :rotate:

BTW if you bought your Jags out with us in Pre-93's
Why would you want to pay twice as much?

you would get to run in a big capacity class without having to have M3's in the same class.

Suggest you read the TTRS regs Al. No M3's in with the Jags :rofl:

I would prefer to pay more than have to run in the same class as a later model M3 as my tanks simple cannot live with the model and anyhow who knows now you guys have shook things up with a bit of luck we may get some more reasonable priced racing next year and if so i am indebted to you.

As far as classes go correct me if I am wrong but I thought class A was something like over 2989cc. I see that you have changed things around a bit now to accomadate the Jags but it all looks a bit complex, surely it would be better alround for the Jags as well as other bigger cars to run in a class A of say 3501cc and above, just my opinion of course obviously what you are doing is working so who am I to comment it was just a response to XJ18's post where he commented he wished more Jags were out there and maybe thats why they are not.

I would prefer to pay more .....
That's where we fundamentally disagree then, but of course that choice does exist.
Delighted if we are assisting you in reducing costs.

Our regs have been the same all year, so no recent changes. They are freely available on our website.

Basic principle is to have cars with similar performance in the same class, regardless of engine capacity. We are looking to provide close racing within classes and yes, as you suggest, it does seem to be working.

The Jags have their own championships but we have had the pleasure of some joining us this year where calendars have permitted.
All are welcome.

I have heard stories of people driving road going cars with 888's home in the wet and finding it a rather scary experience. It could be however that the tyres need to be up to temperature before they perform at their best even in the rain?

The thing I really like about TTRS apart from the great value, is that they seem to listen to what the drivers are saying and respond accordingly.

The last few JEC XJS races have had about 15 entries, with the full TTRS grids everyone has someone to race with. To be honest I don't really care who is in my class, I just want to have a good race and I really enjoyed Silverstone!

I just hope that the success of 2008 doesent go to their heads, and they continue to follow the same principles in future seasons.

You are dead right there about the temps XJ18, on my 2nd car an 87 Camaro shod on Toyos I was racing at Croft a few months back and it started to rain halfway through the race (its on the YouTube link) but because by then the tyres were nice and hot I hardly noticed any change in grip levels infact I posted my fastest lap once it started raining but oddly enough the Honda Civic and M3 that were chasing me dropped back, maybe the heavier weight of my car meant I had generated more heat into the tyres than the lighter cars. It would be nice to go head to head with some of the Jags in the old Chevies as I think they would be well matched.

Oh and John please don't take part of what I said out of context and use in a quote to distort what I meant, I actually wrote 'I would prefer to pay more than have to run in the same class as a later model M3 as my tanks simple cannot live with the model' not that I prefer to pay more per se, only a fool would prefer that.

Al,

I think what they are saying is that they will listen to the competitors, as they have to the Jaguars which seems to have worked very well.

In your case though (please don't take this the wrong way) it would be a case for a lower class based on your specific example rather than the models capability to it's base regulations as Peter Hallford's Post Historic Camaro example goes very well indeed, and a quick look on TSL shows it is certainly as quick as an M3. You race in the same series as that don't you?

So I could understand a reluctance to make changes on that basis, otherwise it would indeed get very complicated.

By the way, I thought this thread was about Fords!?

Paul.

Jag is a Ford is'nt it? :-) No I was talking about classes based on cc as traditionally and it makes no difference where the overall winner comes from in my book as long as you can have some class racing to keep up your interest otherwise whats the point. I went out in those horrible conditions in the video where aout 3 or 4 competitors loaded up and went home purely to bag third in class A in the championship, it just gives you something to go for where ever I finish overall.

Listening to competitors is actually not always what its cracked up to be as I found to my cost with the now defunct ModProd series, it would still be going now if some of the stupid things like normally asperated cossies etc were not voted in by competitors, sometimes they need protecting from themselves or at least their wallets do! Also bare in mind my comments were in response to XK saying he would like more Jags (i.e. i assume heavy metal as well) to race with so maybe thats not working quite right.

BTW Pete has lots more money than me, my efforts are entirely self built including the engines (just what is a dyno?) :-)

You've lost me then Al. On the one hand you're saying you need to be in a different class because you can't compete with an M3, but we see the car you race can do that but perhaps not with your means. You also therefore can't compete with the existing cars in your class in the championship you race in right now.

On the other hand you confirm that you are talking about straight cc class breaks.. Ummm, don't quite follow.

Whether it's good or bad to listen to competitors, they must be doing something right..

I think it is essential to listen to drivers, we are the customers, and if we don't like whats on offer we go somewhere else. Or in some cases start up our own series.

I'm not saying that the powers that be should go along with every whim, but they do need to listen. The JEC have lost loads of drivers over the last few years due to taking the attitude that "its our series and we'll run it the way that we see fit! One of the JEC series has had about 3 or less entries in the last few races. i think this speaks volumes!

BTW my XJS does not have a hint of FORD in it!:)

Dave

Ok let me try to make it clearer.

I have no problem running in a class break that by its very size is aimed around putting the heavier cars into that class whether I am thrashed or not. OK so far. Now a good natural break (IMHO) that would see Yanks and big Cats racing against each other would be say 3500cc and above as we have in CTCRC Pre-93's and we have so far had XJS, XJ12, IROC-Z (me) and a very nice 3 litre Turbo Supra which in the flesh is a remarkable large and heavy car and fits in well with the heavyweight ethos. But if you set the break at 3500cc the later model BMW M3 will have to run with the earlier model (something I personally know John did not want happen and maybe at the time he feared unfoundedly that the later model would wipe the floor) but which IMHO is fine and is what we have in now CTCRC Pre-93's (the original TTRS rules incidently if you were not aware).

Now a later model M3 won the CTCRC Pre-93 championship but again IMHO that was because no good early M3 entered until the last two rounds when Roger Stanford really showed the older lighter smaller engine car is more than a match for the later model car beating it each time.

So again in my opinion our rules and class breaks work better for the heavy cars by leaving the Class A for the heavyweights and I am not fussed at all who races in there with me and beats me or whatever (actually Pete has not bothered so irrelevant) I just like to enter a race and line up on the grid knowing that the model car I am racing (and I stress the model car not me or my car) has or could have with enough money chucked at it and with a better driver the potential to win the class. I dont personally think within the regs a Camaro will ever beat a well sorted M3 the same as the Mustang late model entered in DTM in period could'nt especially if you study the minimum weight requirements so if I am lining up in the same class as a late model M3 as I would in TTRS then I may as well not bother. But if that was a big car class and there were a few XJ's in there then great lets go for it even if as is likely I get beaten, do you not take my point?

Dave,

I hear what you say and we (CTCRC) do have a facility to put forward changes at the AGM and to the committee at anytime but what I had with the ModProd championship was everything was put to the floor and voted in by a show of drivers hands. Now that was fine and in many cases worked well with some noticible exceptions which IHMO caused the rot to set into the championship taht at one time had far more drivers than PBMW and TTRS combined and we could regularly fill 3 grids with reserves.

So what went wrong? At one notible AGM a driver who had a bee in his bonnet to run a normally asperated Cosworth Seirra he already ran a very quick and competitive Pinto Seirra but wanted to convert it (we didn't allow the Cossie at the time) to Cossie but without turbo. Now as chairman I and the committee were against this but at the AGM he turned up with Rent-a-Mob (some of which still post on here) and the motion was passed. Now this guy chucked a ruddy fortune at this thing and it just never worked as Roland Hayes told him it wouldnt and actually posted slower times than the Seirra with 2.4 Pinto HT engine fitted. So eventually he gave up and retired, net result rules in turmoil as it was then open season once a precedent had been set and we loose a good competitior. Then in came Rose Joints, Cossies, M3's et al and before you knew it drivers were deserting wholesale.

So you see IMHO demoracy is fine but a strong elected committee is a better way of doing things than letting guys dictate too much especially rule changes by a show of hands. A sensible balance needs to be arrived at.

Oh another naff decision which the drivers arrived at, a very good Capri competitor wanted to race a Cosworth Scorpio as he was a Ford dealer and wanted to race a late model. great says I but oh no it was only made with an auto box and he wanted to run a manual so the drivers voted narrowly against, another great club member (John Warren) lost for ever!

Hi Al'

I didn't realise that you were the chairman of the CTCRC. It would seem that you & John have some history!

I think that one of the things that everyone should agree on including the Marshalls, is that full grids are a very good thing. Another thing that most should agree with is that it is becoming increasingly difficult for us drivers to meet the costs of club racing.

It only seems fair that if theres a full grid that the savings are passed on to the competitor. I discussed this with a rep from Castle Combe whilst I was drivers XJS rep, the JEC were not intersted in discussing it!

I would be more than happy to race with mustangs etc, but at the moment TTRS is way ahead of the rest in terms of value for money, plus the silverstone GP races were probably the most enjoyable races I've done so far.

Clearly the fairest way to put cars into the most suitable class is to put them into classes where their expected achievable performance is fairly equal. One of the major factors has to be power to weight!

Appologies for hijacking the Ford thread. If it helps, I have owned a number of Fords over the years, my favourite being a 1963 Consul Capri!

Dave

I didn't realise that you were the chairman of the CTCRC. It would seem that you & John have some history!I was'nt and we don't apart from the fact I was preparing a car for the CTCRC pre-93 only to see TTRS start and take away half the grid but I do understand the motives if I am honest but just feel its a shame it happened the way it did also the car I was preparing (a 1340kgs Camaro IROC-Z) would have been in with the later model M3 in TTRS so all a bit of a waste of time for me at least where I am now I get to race with more equal cars in my class i.e the Supra and big Cats and cn get on pace with the class winning Supra and have out qualified it twice. For the record I was chairman of the Racing Saloon Car Club which co-ordinated the Modified Production Saloon Car Championship.

I tried to add, sorry for the hijack again but to get back to Fords and my comment about the still born Cosworth Scorpio for ModProds, I wonder if an allowance was made to run wth a manual box this car could made be competitive in any of these Pre-93/4 championships.

Al,

Didn't quite understand how the advent of TTRS will make your series cheaper next season?

Cripes, that will teach me to go out for an evening. There's a 1000 words there..

Having sifted through it there still seems to be contradictions I don't quite follow and on balance probably never will..

Firstly having done some research on lap times and lap records for the Pete Hallford Chevy Camaro, and I've found a Nigel Garrett Chevy Camaro too, both in Post Historic specification. They are right on the M3 pace you say is unachievable. Presumably they are not running the control Toyo the CTCRC Pre-93 and TTRS both run either.

So we are left with the fact that they can get on that pace, but you can't for whatever reason.

Then you say you don't mind being thrashed or not, but then that you do and that's why the class breaks are a problem for you. No wonder my head is spinning!

The rest of it seems to be all around a history lesson on TTRS, which we all know as it entertained me so much when I was just a browser of the forum.

It probably is a shame for many that they weren't allowed to do what they do now within the Classic Tourers, but recycling it all at every single opportunity probably does noone any credit though, and in fact gets a bit dull a full year on? Certainly turning every TTRS related thread into a sales pitch for your favoured series is a touch wearing. (sorry).

The fact is they are turning people away for race entries, and should be applauded for that. It showed a degree of courage as there were plenty that wanted to see them fail. I won't be racing with them as my car doesn't really fit, but good luck to them as they deserve to do well. If they make the organizing clubs wake up to the benefit of us all, even better.

I am now going to polish up a front panel.. That is not a euphawassaname!

Paul.

Easy XKS18, you don't think others are not looking at the success of TTRS and the pricing model. Look harping back to the old ModProds I devised and wrote the regs for a very good and successful championship but witin two seasons we had BARCSE and Combe Saloons directly copying the format after we had appeared there so you see when something is going good as TTRS obviously is but I will say bolstered by the Bimmers and without the the numbers would not be so impressive, do you honestly believe other organisations are not looking at how the lower rates are being achieved and planning similiar? I mean with this recession thing realistically unless major clubs decide to bury their heads in the sand (true to form they may well do of course) they are going to have to!!

Cortina Crew (odd name, a mate of mines brother once named his daughter Capri as he was a Capri racer:D ) I have really tried to spell it out simply and fail to see why you cannot understand what I am getting at. I think what may be confusing you is you may not know I have two Camaros that I actively race, for this conversation I am talking about my 1987 3rd Gen IROC-Z which is totally different and built to different regulations, different wheels and tyres, miniumum weights, class breaks etc. etc. than my 2nd Generation 1970/1 model which would run with Pete and Nigel that car is completely irrelevant to this discussion and although featured in the youtube link I posted that was only to show you how well a PBMW spec car on Toyo Tyres handles in the wet compared to the old Formula Dunlop Historic tyres I have to run on. So for this conversation the times Pete and Nigel post in their cars is totally irrelevant as they are unlikely ever to compete and if they did and did'nt swap to Toyos they would be very disadvantaged.

Just for clarity here is some incar from my later car on Toyos and in a Pre-93 race in the rain at Croft, you can see as XK18 has remarked that it holds the track well on the Toyos because its starts to rain later in the race when the tyres are red hot, sorry about the gestulating when I get tagged from behind http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFdnuC64vHk Not the fastest out there but you have to admit she sure sounds sweet :-) BTW you go and polish a front panel I am now going to pull the engine out of the IROC and rebuild it! ;-) BTW 2 if you are wondering just why a PBMW spec car on Toyos was in a pre-83 race, don't go there!!

Hope I'm wrong Al, but I doubt very much that the JEC for one, will learn anything from the success of TTRS!

Regarding listening to the drivers, Clearly the commitee should have the final say, but they should have a damn good reason for going against a majority vote!

Its a great shame that theres so much conflict in club racing, we really need more cooperation between all parties for the good of the sport. The next couple of years is going to be really difficult, and I can see several series or even clubs going to the wall.

That I do agree with you Dave in fact I have agreed with most if not all you have posted. My example in the club we were running was prehaps a bit extreme as it was always put to the drivers which was a bit unfair as invariable only a small proportion turned up to vote at the agm. Also if you ask for suggestions very few can be bothered to contribute as one thing I have learned with this sport is that apathy really does rule. Anyhow lets hope some people are getting the message that things can be done cheaper if the will is there and that us drivers pockets are only so deep especially in the current climate.

Apathy is by far the the most frustrating challenge that I've encountered in club racing. Unfortunately I am probably too much the opposite, which doesen't do me any favours!

At 53 years I doubt I'm likely to change now!

With that I shall let the Ford racers have their thread back!

.... looking at the success of TTRS and the pricing model. ....do you honestly believe other organisations are not looking at how the lower rates are being achieved and planning similiar?

It's not rocket science how we do it.
Will be good to see genuinely lower costs for more of us out there next year. So long as there's no predatory pricing of course as that could get rather messy ;)

Me too Dave I also tend to take it all too seriously I guess. Julian we all need more co-operation all round not playing one off against the other I agree there, and get these Fords out with other cars not in their only little group/class as there is just too much of the one make stuff around, it makes far more interesting grids for everone including the competitors and marshals with more of a mixture and also more interesting racing IMHO.

I'v got two Ford racing cars in my garage,(back on thread I hope).

Hello Eric, besides the Fiesta what's the other one?

Dont know yet but at the moment its a Mk1 1600 x flow fully prepared rally car,got to see what it turns out to be?

Aah, I knew you wanted to go back to rear wheel drive.

Twin Cam it Eric you know you want to :-)

Oh and John please don't take part of what I said out of context and use in a quote to distort what I meant........
Not the intention, hence the continuation dots.

.......not that I prefer to pay more per se, only a fool would prefer that.
We can agree on that:)

Twin Cam it Eric you know you want to :-)
No,I want something with a bit of grunt to do Spa/The Ring,race or track day and give me a bit more fun at home.
My all steel twin cam is in the process of being rebuilt and dynoed them thats up for sale,and that is a good engine,very tempted to put it back in but outvoted by my staff.:)

BDA, Big HT Racing Pinto, Small Block Chevy? :-) Hey Eric you know Twinks, some poor guy in our club is suffering head gasket failure after failure can you give him any advice?

BDA, Big HT Racing Pinto, Small Block Chevy? :-) Hey Eric you know Twinks, some poor guy in our club is suffering head gasket failure after failure can you give him any advice?
Head gaskets dont normaly give trouble unless something is distorted.Better he looks for a cracked liner or porous head.Good thing is they are easy to strip and if he is having trouble locating the problem I have a endoscope he could use to see exactly where the water is coming in before removing the head.

He has had it stripped half a dozen times I think, it was gutting to see it pumping steam out the exhaust at the last round for the umptenth time this season. I think he may need a new head by the sound of it, do you recommend using studs instead of bolts?

Hi guys.

Time to get this back to a FORD Thread. I have news that the CTCRC Classic Thunder(formally CMS) championship is launching the Blue Oval Saloon Series. The series will be run within CT but to its own rules and points etc. Any Ford car allowed but must retain Ford engine in its original orrientation. No spaceframes, no 4wd's. 5 classes, a choice of rubber from FOUR manufactures but no slicks. All MSV circuits plus Combe, Pembrey, Silverstone, Croft and maybe others. I believe there's a mix of single race, two race on 1 day and weekend meetings all within the friendly CTCRC. I know Craig Rainer and others from the Ford Saloon's are going to be racing in the new for 09 Blue Oval Saloon Series. BOSS Fords sounds like a good name to me:woot:

A lot of the cars will also be elligible for our Pre-93's, Group 1's and Post Historics so you get the chance of the discounted £100 2nd race £75 3rd race option as well.

Any Ford car allowed but must retain Ford engine in its original orrientation. No spaceframes, no 4wd's. 5 classes, a choice of rubber from FOUR manufactures but no slicks
Mmmmmm I know just the car :)

What tyres can they use and why no 4wd?

*sigh*. Can't wait. Economy down the toilet, likelihood that club racing is going to have a bit of a struggle for entries, let's have another new series. Don't worry, the marshals will turn out in droves for another bunch of Fords running around.

Why not all get our heads out of the sand, think about the sport as a whole and cull the whole shebang into a few dozen all-encompassing series instead of hundreds of narrow minded speciality acts. Boy, what I wouldn't give to have a governing body who'd govern.

Rant over.

What tyres can they use and why no 4wd?
Err total dominance as seen in DMN may just be the reason.

Wooley read again mate, it aint a new series at all its what you lot have been asking for, an amalgamation.

it aint a new series at all its what you lot have been asking for, an amalgamation.
Is it strictly an amalgamation given that the BRSCC still have their Ford Saloon Championship? However, it is a positive move that BOSS series are running in Classic Modified Saloons which will improve grids in that championship, with the additional benefit that BOSS competitors may undetake additional races in other CTCRC championships.

Err total dominance as seen in DMN may just be the reason.

Wooley read again mate, it aint a new series at all its what you lot have been asking for, an amalgamation.I think the post is easily mis-read, maybe it would have been better to state it is being run as part of the Classic Thunder series, if I am reading it correctly, and not just "within CT".
Correct me if I am wrong Al.

I think that is the nub of it.

Err total dominance as seen in DMN may just be the reason.

Wooley read again mate, it aint a new series at all its what you lot have been asking for, an amalgamation.

Morning guys, yes it certainly is an amalgamation, not a takeover, the fords are still running to similar regs as before, as is the CMS (now Classic Thunder) for more upto date details see CTCRC stand (52) at brands hatch this weekend, i maybe bringing my incomplete CT capri tomorrow as a static display for the stand! see you there for a chat and a cuppa!! Mark

What tyres can they use and why no 4wd?

Err total dominance as seen in DMN may just be the reason.

Wooley read again mate, it aint a new series at all its what you lot have been asking for, an amalgamation........

That's about the nub of it.



Yep, just had it all explained and comfirmed at Brands today by the nice man standing by the 500gazzilion bhp Cossie engined Mk2 Escort.

Yep, just had it all explained and comfirmed at Brands today by the nice man standing by the 500gazzilion bhp Cossie engined Mk2 Escort.

Cheers for confirming that Tim, i will be down at Brands in the mornin possibly joined by big Al (Weyman) and some of the other CT crew.

mark.;)

Err total dominance as seen in DMN may just be the reason.


Doesn't seem very fair. All the people with Cossie 'scorts and Saphs have to sit out because they bought the right car. How can you have a Mod Ford championship then pick and choose which Fords go in it?

Because it makes every other 2WD car redundant, look whats happened in other championships. i will be there tomorrow Mark, just finished the car about 9,30 tonight!

Hi Kelvin

Al's post is to the point. Also CTCRC have never allowed 4wd in any champioship. However for 09 they are allowed in Classic Thunder as long as a turbo restrictor is fitted. Having spoken to potential BOSS enterants with 4wd machinery they are more than willing to convert to 2wd. It will be cheaper and more reliable!:D

Any 4wd Escort or Sapphire is more than welcome to join DMN. Indeed one driver enquired yesterday. Incidentallly a Peugeot 205 won the DMN championship this year.

Ah thankyou for clearing that up, Photoman. :)

:) I trust that you have got your snow chains on for Brands today !!:)

:) I trust that you have got your snow chains on for Brands today !!:)
Yoy Ex pat Spanish wimp,not tuf like us Kentishmen a Tim.
By the way,Penny wont let me go today.:cool:

Wooley read again mate, it aint a new series at all its what you lot have been asking for, an amalgamation.
In which case, I take it back. Got a bit lost from the original and I was convinced it was another new one. My bad.

Having been at Brands yesterday i saw the Escort of Craig Rainer and it deffinatly looks like BOSS ford series is a go and it seems the CTCRC have welcomed them in and i can only see it as big plus for all the grids.

Big article in Autosnort today.

The BRSCC have shot themselves in the foot (again).

Couldn't get Autosport (stupid newsagent). What does it say?

Couldn't get Autosport (stupid newsagent). What does it say?
It says that the front running car is expected to be an escort cosworth previously raced by a guy living near brands who is due retirement,converted to rear wheel drive and raced on he's behalf by a talented good looking guy from down near Lydden.(Cant think who that could be!!)

I'm moving to Lydden.

Good on you Eric, I am sure Malcolm will let you use his car!!

Touche!

It basically said, because the BRSCC do not appear to listen to the drivers/competitors, they are voting with their feel and up to 30 of them (including some past competitors who have cars in their garages after they walked away from the series previously) will be joining the BOSS initiative that will run as part of the Classic Thunder series run by the BARC. Spirallying costs are cited as a major part of the split.
It also states that Kevin Shortis offered Craig Rayner the job of running the Ford Saloons, but he declined as he'd already made up his mind to go with the BOSS idea.
Craig Rainer will therefore be one of the leading lights of the Blue Oval Saloon Series, which is for TWO wheel drive Fords of a certain age (2003 or older).

Shortis has said that the Ford Saloons will continue next year, and have ideas to run a fledgeling Puma Cup. "We're going to lose a few people" he added. More like most of them!

So, it'll be Malcolm Wise, Steve Scott, the boys from Scotland, and a couple of Puma's. A typical BRSCC 10 car grid at best.

The drivers of 4x4 Sapphires will probably convert them to RWD only and go with the BOSS "renegades" if they've got any sense, IMHO.

The BOSS series is for any age of Ford car upto the present day whilst Classic Thunder is anything pre Jan 1st 2004. Having spoken to Malcolm Wise, He was/is planning to take his 4wd Escort cossie to the LMA's anyway so he can run it on slicks but he still has his 2wd Saph so guess where he's taking that! Having also spoken to some of the Scottish clan, particularly Graham Wait they are going to convert their cars to 2wd and I'll give you another guess as to where they're going to be racing in 09? Not the FSCC! If Steve Scott or anyone else who wants to remain 4wd wants to come and play CT are allowing 4wd but with a 42mm restrictor and track day tyres, altenatively LMA or DMN.

So why does it say (in ink) that the BOSS series is for "two-wheel-drive Ford Saloons built prior to 2003" in Autosport? OK, I guess the goalposts can be shuffled to bring in a few more, but will it result in the same issues you had in the FSCC.

Right, well that doesn't leave much left for the FSCC then.

Dont believe everything you read in the papers Rob, there are some mistakes in the article, I believe Dennis is to ask them if they could kindly rectify the mistakes in next weeks issue.

You beat me to it Al, I was going to say that maybe Autosport has a few ex Sun reporters working there.

Dont believe everything you read in the papers Rob, there are some mistakes in the article, I believe Dennis is to ask them if they could kindly rectify the mistakes in next weeks issue.

They have been asked, hoepfully we'll see a small amendment published in the near future.

Just to clarify, BOSS is for anything 2WD Ford from current model and before, Classic Thunder is remaining at pre-2004.

If someone wanted to carry on running in 4WD (Ford or otherwise) then they would have to fit an intake restrictor and run on list 1B tyres only. Then they could fit in the Classic Thunder 4WD class. We are expecting most of the Ford boys to convert to 2WD (including the Escorts!) but the option is there for them if they so desire.


Err, or what photoman said! Must read ALL of the posts in future!

So, can I run Harry in CT then? eh? eh?

Well there was a 2 door Seirra with a Cleveland V8 in this year Rob and Mark is bringing out a Mk 3 Capri with Small Block Ford so I cannot see why a Belmont with a GM small block can't play but I really am not sure.

So, can I run Harry in CT then? eh? eh?

If there was a Belmont produced somewhere that had a V8 of any type fitted in it then you would be eligible. If not then please pass details to me and the committee can consider the car if it won't run away with things.

So what is the criteria now Dennis, not quite such a free for all as expected then by the sounds of it?

For 'automatic' eligibility the engine block doesn't have to be standard but does have to be of the same format as original and based on a production car block (ie you can replace a 4 cylinder with another manufacturers 4 cylinder but you can't stick in a V8 or a bike engine).

However we reserve the right to allow in otherwise ineligible vehicles by a committee decision. This would be granted if the candidate car was otherwise in the spirit of the regulations and wouldn't have a competitive advantage over it's class mates.

No Robs 7 litre all alloy engined Vauxhall Belmont would'nt have an advantage (would it?).

BTW Rob what happening with the roundy round stuff next year.

The End.

Denis, if you're letting in Thundersaloons, then you're letting in thundersaloons, cars built to the Thundersaloon regulations before the BRSCC and Nicola Foulston's stupid ideas killed the series.

Don't forget, this car was originally built in 1990 for the 1991 BRSCC Thundersaloon Championship,
it mutated over the years from it's original grenate Opel Manta Phase IV engine, through Cosworth BDX, and Cosworth YB. It was built to take a Pontiac smallblock.

Taking the official rules into consideration:
Was there ever a RWD Vauxhall Astra ? No.
Did they ever put a V8 in an Astra ? No.
Did they inject one with Godzilla's DNA and let it mutate? Yes
Was it a Thundersaloon. Yes.

Will it run away, probably - on the long straights. Overall around a lap - I can see an Escort Cossie with 500bhp giving it some grief, if not being in front. In the wet, well I expect a 1600cc Corolla to run past it!

The usual comment is "don't like that hump in the bonnet". To which I answer: OK, I'll fit fuel injection and get rid of it, but that means another 100bhp.... Stunned silence, followed by... "leave the hump..."

While it would be nice to race it with it's "peers", cars of the same era, I get the feeling that it wouldn't be that welcome, even with it's reliability record to date (not done more than 5 laps in any one go!).

What's going to happen when someone rebuilds Stewart Morton's Escort V8, with it's Chevy up front, and Lola transaxle up the back? Where will that run?

Probably where I'm hoping to "house" Harry if all else fails - AMOC Super GT.

The End.
Shame.

I know where that (ex-Stewart Morton) Escort now lives.

Me too

So do I :)

Shhh, it's a secret don't tell everyone .....

I've been waiting for it to come back out for over a year now......

What I'd be also interested in knowing is where Stuart Donnan's Sierra went. That was another Empress creation.

Jason Dell's Merc 190 went overseas iirc.

We know where Bill Shepherds Calibra's went - Ric Wood has Bill's own-built version, while Jon Mann has the Pilbeam built job (and is still hoping to have it out this coming year)

The dates for the BOSS series are here. Oulton. Thruxton, Sillystone, Snett, Lydden, Brands, Rockingham and Mallory all included. All details are at www.blueovalsaloons.com (http://www.blueovalsaloons.com). Looks like a well thought out calender with some d/headers and nicely spead apart. I feel some good value for money racing coming up this coming season.:)

Looks like all might be having some real fun soon.
Unlike some, we've never really been into the 'small' car 'big' engine scene (i.e a V8 in an Escort or similar). We've thought of installing an ex F1 Hart 415T (now with a much more advanced management system) de-tuned to about 600bhp with !!!!! of torque into a escort shell but made entirely of aluminium with a fully intergrated aluminium cage (nee Zakspeed) driving through a sequential transaxle - after doing some sums on the power to weight ratio it would be :p :p !!! Although through design the rear suspension would be independent the front would be classic Macpherson Strut but with wishbone location at the base.
What new series would this be eligible for, Boss or Classic? Would it in any way be considered ineligible (it has the potential to be extremely quick but that is exactly the point isn't it, we would be in it to win, not to be forced by oppressive regulations to trundle round at approximately the same speed as all fellow competitors and be jolly sporting o'l boy - or will one be penalised for innovation. Replies here on a Christmas Card asap please.

Best wishes to you all this Xmas and a HNY. :rotate:

Dale.

I would have thought the Escort shell made from aluminium makes it ineligible for either. I thought Alloy cages were illegal?

Looks like all might be having some real fun soon.
Unlike some, we've never really been into the 'small' car 'big' engine scene (i.e a V8 in an Escort or similar). We've thought of installing an ex F1 Hart 415T (now with a much more advanced management system) de-tuned to about 600bhp with !!!!! of torque into a escort shell but made entirely of aluminium with a fully intergrated aluminium cage (nee Zakspeed) driving through a sequential transaxle - after doing some sums on the power to weight ratio it would be :p :p !!! Although through design the rear suspension would be independent the front would be classic Macpherson Strut but with wishbone location at the base.
What new series would this be eligible for, Boss or Classic? Would it in any way be considered ineligible (it has the potential to be extremely quick but that is exactly the point isn't it, we would be in it to win, not to be forced by oppressive regulations to trundle round at approximately the same speed as all fellow competitors and be jolly sporting o'l boy - or will one be penalised for innovation. Replies here on a Christmas Card asap please.

Best wishes to you all this Xmas and a HNY. :rotate:

Dale.

Err, eek.

Sorry but it wouldn't be eligible for either based on next years regs! And as Al said Ali roll cages were outlawed some time ago.

Stick a Millington diamond engine YBT in it, retain a steel sheel but fit ali/grp/carbon kevlar body panels etc, and you'd be more than welcome. And it would probably be cheaper. I am assuming that the Hart 415T isn't a production based block, if it is then you can fit it. Oh, and it would have to be a sequential gearbox coupled with a live axle (properly located of course).

Still sounds fun though, any chance of getting it done for Thruxton, I'm guessing 170 down the straights!

Unfortunately we still have to have some constraint to the rules. We still wish to remain a club level series that caters for a wide variety of machinery that, whilst not 'budget', is within the capability of most mechanically minded people to build, maintain and race.

Lightweight shell aside, what reason could there be for making a fully intergrated cage made from lightweight material ineligable, sorry, you'll have to excuse my ignorance but I don't quite get that one, please explain.
With regard to the shell, how much of an original shell can be re-modelled with lightweight areas, or will any kind of weight saving be outlawed - the words "can" and "worms" spring to mind but this sort of thing needs to be discussed, some definitives if possible ;), taaaaaaaa.

Dale.

Dale ask the MSA or FIA or whoever, they were the ones that chucked out the alloy roll cages along time ago surely you know that and are winding us up, we just build and race cars to comply. no can of worms just ain't allowed end of!

Like Al said, the MSA banned ali for use in roll cages in the late eigthies. Pity because I have the homologation papers for the Corolla detailing the ali cage they used in the Touring Cars, incredibly light but would do next to nothing for chassis stiffness.

I think you can present pretty much any cage of any type to the MSA for indvidual homologation. Presumably you have to supply all the calculations proving it provides adequate protection. Way beyond most peoples scope I would guess.

I think some company has homologated a carbon fibre cage for example, vaguely remember seeing something about it at last years Autosports show.

Like any race series, if you turn up with a homologated cage with certificate that gets through scrutineering then that cage is fine with us.

Personally I would just stick with T45, saves the inevitable arguments with scrutes.

Whilst not made in T45, I designed my cage on a freely available FEA program, the increase in stiffness is quite incredible.

This winter we are finally sorting out the issue of the front suspension turrets moving about, according to the elongated holes in the strut brace (a length of roll cage tube, not the usual wobbly junk) we are getting between 1/2 and 1 inch of movement! The last attempt put a bending load though the strut brace, and bent it!

So what is a Ford ka runing either a 1300 endura or a bored out to 1400 endura going to be like? Competitive or not? As this championship sounds fantastic :D