DMN, Tin Tops and Rolling Starts

Dave i might consider entering one of the races but im not intrested in rolling starts as i think they are un fair and benifit the front few cars.[/quote]

The biggest advantage of a rolling start has to go to little light weight Front wheel drives, unlike a standing start which has to be biassed towards the bigger rwds. Any whay are you not in the front few cars you should be:p

Big dave the only time a rolling start should be used is for non gear box carts, where if the pack is spread out they get sent around again.
If rolling starts are that good why is the majority of circuit raceing standing?
As for stress on the car will you want rolling start for an auto test ,sprinting and rallying i think not.
I could debate this for hours !

robie if done properly a roller is buy far the fairer way of starting ,the problem is drivers try to hold back to gain a run on the guy in front.this then puts the guys behind at a disadvantage.the officials do make us go round again if they feel the grid is too spread out but that just decreases the race distance which is not fair on everyone, but you cant go round all day to get the grid right because of a few opertunists..

Woody you have some very good points should we start a new thread, we will get some very intresting replies ?

I'll 2nd that, I seem to recall that the vote at the Drivers meeting at Brands at end of last year was 50/50 rolling /standing. This year regs the starts are 7 rolling 2 standing, not quite 50/50?

no it wasnt 50/50, ultimately thats because the COC's event organising clubs etc deciding that the grid sizes and large disparity between cars ment it was the safest way to start the races so that was how it had to be.

when we first strated doing rolling starts a number of years ago, a lot of drivers werent keen on them, nowdays the vast majority are in agreement it is a safer way to start a race, especially one with big grids

when we first strated doing rolling starts a number of years ago, a lot of drivers werent keen on them, nowdays the vast majority are in agreement it is a safer way to start a race, especially one with big grids[/quote]

Perhaps we could have a vote at years end by all registered drivers and go with the majority next year?

when we first strated doing rolling starts a number of years ago, a lot of drivers werent keen on them, nowdays the vast majority are in agreement it is a safer way to start a race, especially one with big grids

Perhaps we could have a vote at years end by all registered drivers and go with the majority next year?[/quote]

that sounds like a good idea scooby 96

Perhaps we could have a vote at years end by all registered drivers and go with the majority next year?

you missed my earlier point, it was taken out of our hands, unfortunatly or fortunatly depending on how you see it safety ( or perceived safety) is a higher priority to those higher up the food chain than our personal preferences

fact though this wouldnt of happened on a rolling start

http://www.rodbirley.com/images/100_0131.jpg

Unfortunatly rolling starts or standing there are accidents, from time to time.

I thought the real benifit of a rolling start was that you are able to have larger grids. Hence catering for the larger DMN grids.

If rolling starts are that good why is the majority of circuit raceing standing?
As for stress on the car will you want rolling start for an auto test ,sprinting and rallying i think not.
I could debate this for hours ![/quote]

would love rolling starts in Autotesting if this was the case would not of left all my new sump oil in brands paddock then!!!! the biggest problem is a rolling start from forwards to backwards and vise versa:rofl:

Unfortunatly rolling starts or standing there are accidents, from time to time.

I thought the real benifit of a rolling start was that you are able to have larger grids. Hence catering for the larger DMN grids.

the main benifit of rolling starts is that no one can be stalled on the grid thus not move or make a very slow getaway, which isnt quite so bad in a one make series where all the car are very evenly matched but on a grid as varied as a dmn one it can be a huge factor, one made especially risky if a fast car had a bad qualifying session and thus starts at the back when its normal performance says it should be at the front

I prefer standing starts

I thought the real benifit of a rolling start was that you are able to have larger grids. Hence catering for the larger DMN grids.

The grids are the same size whether it is a rolling or standing start.

done plenty of both, i have noticed rolling ones i pretty much keep my grid position, but have on occassion made up a huge number of places from a standing start, i once made up 13 places from the start to the first corner at silverstone with only 190bhp, it was a great start but at the same time pretty scary as i zig zagged around cars that didnt made it away properly that could of very easily ended up in tears

The grids are the same size whether it is a rolling or standing start.
Chezza Sorry if ive miss lead but i do wear glasses so could have missed read but my comment came from viewing the msa circuit licence of which there was several hanging on the wall,whilst i was in Brands control tower earlier this year .

Well I've not seen anything as such in the bluebook...

Long distance races can have more starters (with a rolling start), such as the Britcar 24hours.

Why not do both on the same event? 1 standing, 1 rolling, everybody happy. Or unhappy.

Used to hate rolling starts.

Why not do both on the same event? 1 standing, 1 rolling, everybody happy. Or unhappy.


Great Idea:cool:

Why dont we half half the grid doing standing and half doing rolling starts,great fun,everyone happy and that would fill the grand stands.:Shrug:

yes could even have a pit stop after 5 mins say change 2 wheels.

Now as long as what type of starts , race lenght , points scoreing, etc are published before you sign up for any championship it dose not matter. One must choose which championship you want to do. DMN is good value on track time, with lots of little add on's.
Its been intresting looking at all your comments, and ive enjoyed my first participation.
Ive enjoyed the DMN series for the last 2 years especially the 2 days events.

I agree with Eddy and think that we should take a leaf out of the WTCC book, 1st race is always a Rolling Start, 2nd race is always a Standing Start. Half the wear on clutches and by doing it in that order more chance that you will start the 2nd race.

We should also seriously consider copying their reversing the first 8 finishing places from the 1st race, for the grid for the 2nd race. In DMN we could still do this regardless of class.

Thirdly we could copy their success weight ballast, it is currently being ironed out for next year to be a set amount for a win or a podium place.

I don't like standing starts either.

I prefer to sit. ;)

Some good points Ash but does DMN really need to play with things to get good racing? Wherever I look in the races there are always battles going on even if it is inter-class battles.

Reversing the grid is madness all it will create is more accidents.
Putting weight in cars should also not be done why penalise a driver for being quick its down to the others to get their finger out the rules are free enough to modify your cars and get them up to spec if a driver is not quick enough that is their problem.
I for one prefer standing starts but would not want one at Snetterton, and at other circuits where the start grid becomes spread out like Combe is a good thing a tightly bunched pack streaming in to quarry will no doubt end in tears.The problem is the variation of cars and driver skill (some drivers are very blinkered)and I prefer to start a race in the safeist way possible so we can have a full and exciting race.

Imagen this in the first race finishing position 8 and 9 are in the same class having a good tussel may be even a class championship at stake then on the second race car 8 being on pole, he would be laughing car 9 be crying, so its a no go.

The DMN series is by far the best racing for spectator and driver.Quoat the old saying'If it aint broke,dont mend it',leave it as it is,I prefer standing starts but the system we have works.

I have to agree with you Lee & Robert on the reverse grid, but if we copied WTCC with 1st race RS and 2nd race SS, every driver would know exactly where they are each race rather than the potential confusion that could cause it's own disaster.
I think that racing is all about being the best across a whole range of skills, Standing Starts being one of them. I agree that this benefits some types of car which is why a 50:50 split has got to be the fairest way.
I don't necessarilly think that RS are safer either, it can just mean that there are too many cars in close proximity to each other at an even faster speed, therefore the potential of an even bigger accident. Whilst there are RS they need to be policed to keep them as safe as possible.

Well said Eric.We have full grids with reserves at most races so something must be right.Having one of each start would confuse me to much being a simple mechanic I would end up stopping when I should be going

I think Eric would be happy if he could have a rolling finish at the moment let alone a rolling start. :rotate:

DMN is first class championship which has been acheived by a lot of foot work by few people , we must remeber this.
My ideal championsip would be 2 visits to each of the following.
Brands, Lydden, castle coombe,silverstone, snetterton.
5 two day events 5 one day events 5 rolling starts and 5 standing starts.
this must cater for every body and not destroy what we have , either as a competitor, sponsor , or marshall.
May be the class structre needs looking at im not sure, if it does would only be class e with a cut off at 1400cc.

Sorry but i have had a further thought about 2009.This is the 50th year of the mini, is there any milage in trying at one of the DMN events ,to make some thing out this. I am aware that other activities will be going on around the country all year.
ie; Say at a lydden event , may be static display, or parade lap, or if enough entries a special mini race, its endless.

ie; Say at a lydden event , may be static display, or parade lap, or if enough entries a special mini race, its endless.[/quote]

Sounds good Rob, static display gives less wear on the drive train;)

Seriously though, I reckon getting a dozen racing Minis or so would be achievable with some notice – there were 10 at another Lydden meeting earlier this year

My ideal circuits would be Brands, Silverstone, Snetterton, Combe, Donnington, Mallory, Rockingham and Thruxton.

And if something were organised to do with the old Mini then it would be better at Brands and tie it in with Mighty Minis or Sevens it would attract more people.

Don't see you at Lydden these days Mig - have you gone off the place?

Never been on the place I have never really liked it I think it is a great rallycross track, sprinting venue and a circuit to start racing on but thats about it.

There is usually a mini festival to celebrate the birthday of the mini for the 45th it was at silverstone and featured all the mini varieties , 7's miglias, mighties, supermighties and mighty extremes.

chezza yes i agree there will be national event but i kind of thought it would be good for some thing in the barc se area.
did we not have a ford display and convoy lap at lydden in the last 12 months ?

Thats a good point...I'll raise it our next committee meeting...see if there is a local mini owners club or something to come and display etc.

Reversed grids, don't like them. They cause more problems than good things. Like it has been said: if it aint broke, don't fix it.

May be the class structre needs looking at im not sure, if it does would only be class e with a cut off at 1400cc.

it has been considered bob but so far we have not had enough interest to warrent it and as your well be aware the fast minis are more than a match for most 1600 saloons, all it would of done is split an existing class in two leaving not enough competitors to allow anyone running a mini a shot at the overall championship.

it has to be said the BARC SEC committee has always worked the regulations around existing competitors to produce the best all round package rather than change them to try and attract new ones who may or may not turn up,

as an example we are reworking intermarque regulations to cater specifically for the small sihiloutte cars that have been supporting us this year, had only one or two made an appearance occassionally we would not of done so

Ashford mini owners club, im part of them

Yes, I organised the Ford Escort parade at our June meeting along with the RS owners club and the Ford owners club. Since then several of the Ford owners have attended our meetings. If someone wants to organise a celebration for the Mini then we can tie it in with one of our meetings.

Rod if Tristan is up for helping and we can agree a date and venue that fits in with my diary. I would be more than happy to see this Mini day happens.

Excellent.

We have a victim...oh...I mean volunteer! ;)

I'd love to see this happen...minis are great!

Chezza yes we already on the case.

Im sure we could try to do something.
An all mini race would be great but havent we been here before?
Seem to remember that Gemma tried to drum up entries this year for a mini class and only the two of us done it!
There are enough of us about ( about 3 regulars if we can pluck them from semsec) and Bill has plenty of contacts

I'm up for it

Ok ill start a list.
I will have a word will Bill too.
Can we count Mr Welch in to cujo?

Might be worth putting something on the SEMSEC forum too Tris

I can tell you that since yesterday morn weve picked up sponsorship and a good lot of intrest via email and my mobil.
keep the intrest going boys and girls.
We have to liase now with BARC SE and confirm a date i am sure this will be released as soon as possible.

Why not call this something different as it's now got nothing to do with rolling starts? Like who wants to have a mini meet at lydden :p ?

ok copper bottom perhaps some one could split it off as i dont know how.:p

Chez, you might know Dave Town through 7oaks MC? I think he's also a member of the Ashford Mini Club and at Lydden every so often, he might be able to help too.... [though I think he has just sold his mini!].

Back on topic of rolling starts, I only did two races with you guys and I really liked them and wish my club would do a few as well, my cars usually get good grip off the line and I can always do a few at a standing start but I still prefered the rolling format, its far less strain on the transmission for a start especially as in the case of my black car the back axle design is a bit marginal. I also did a couple of rollers at Rockingham in a scratch race and it was the best part of the race, brilliant.

As Al hinted, I think a lot of views are coloured by what car you have. A powerful car that can chew up drivetrain bits, rolling starts are excellent. a lightweight jobbie with a good powerband standing starts. I think your background also colours your views - in general (go on prove me wrong) ex- sprinters seem to be pretty good at standing starts

Dont really give a monkeys as i cant get either right

Can we count Mr Welch in to cujo?

He might get a drive in a red car next year as he's so good in the wet :laugh:

- in general (go on prove me wrong) ex- sprinters seem to be pretty good at standing starts

i'd have to agree with you alan, for me generally with standing starts in both the turbo car and the previous non turbo, i was able to make up a few places off the start ( once had 13 into the first corner!) assuming im not out of place at the back although if a get a bad standing start is usually really bad,

so i do find rolling starts are far more neutral interms of places made up or lost

At least with standing starts officials notice when a driver jumps the start, in my 1st race this year I lost 2 places BEFORE the start!

Might be worth putting something on the SEMSEC forum too Tris
No too sure they would love me for that Jon, barc boys taking there drivers!
Will contact them via Bill.
Alan Rawling should be up for it too, Perhaps you could let him know via swiftune Rob?

Drivers do get penalised for jumping a rolling start, ask Ray Barrow (Brands, August 24th).

Can some one tell me does the raceing start once the pole man is over the line, or do you have to wait to be over the start line your self ?

racing starts as soon as the lights go out, the middle to back of the grid would have no way of knowing when the poleman crossed the line

Chez, you might know Dave Town through 7oaks MC? I think he's also a member of the Ashford Mini Club and at Lydden every so often, he might be able to help too.... [though I think he has just sold his mini!].

Yes he works on Ken Welsh's mini and is around here too somewhere, we'll be picking everyones brains on this one.

Does not work on Kens car are you muddeling him up with me Big Dave?

Certainly looks like it...ooops! Sorry!

That's because you confuse everybody seeing as your real name is Gavin! :p Chez if you do want contact details drop me a PM.

god now i'm even more confused! ;)

racing starts as soon as the lights go out, the middle to back of the grid would have no way of knowing when the poleman crossed the line

i just wish i could see the lighs go out! i have to presume they have!

presume a little earlier Jemma:gogirl: and here look just found a smily of the purple mig racer:old: :laugh:

big dave you have nearly got it right in fact it next year rolling start marshall:old: . in fact herer is purple mig driver:haha: :p

Dont really give a monkeys as i cant get either right

I do .... as I have to hammer that bit of shaft out of the diff... damm oil gets under the nails you know :p

I do .... as I have to hammer that bit of shaft out of the diff... damm oil gets under the nails you know :p:rofl: :rofl:

racing starts as soon as the lights go out, the middle to back of the grid would have no way of knowing when the poleman crossed the lineThats the problem, the people at the middle to back at some circuits (Silverstone, Castle Combe and Lydden) cant see the lights at all, as they are still comming arround the corner, and have to guess when the lights go out.
This is VERY DANGEROUS as we will find out soon.

Last Sunday there was more evidence that rolling starts are just as dangerous (sometimes even more because of the higher speed involved) as standing starts, when a pack of Dutch BRL V6s collided in the first corner at Zolder. Unsighted, the "slower" BRL Light cars piled into the first wreckage when they came flying around that corner. And yes, yellows were out.

Result: 8 seriously damaged cars, a 18 minute safety car period and a 12 minute race.
Safe, eh!

Last Sunday there was more evidence that rolling starts are just as dangerous (sometimes even more because of the higher speed involved) as standing starts, when a pack of Dutch BRL V6s collided in the first corner at Zolder. Unsighted, the "slower" BRL Light cars piled into the first wreckage when they came flying around that corner. And yes, yellows were out.

Result: 8 seriously damaged cars, a 18 minute safety car period and a 12 minute race.
Safe, eh!I rest my case M'lord:cool:

Exactly what I said:
I don't necessarilly think that RS are safer either, it can just mean that there are too many cars in close proximity to each other at an even faster speed, therefore the potential of an even bigger accident. Whilst there are RS they need to be policed to keep them as safe as possible.

The crash at the start of the second WTCC race at Imola today highlighted what happens when a car stalls on a standing start. Tarquini's Seat looked like it was written off when the BMW hit it.

I had a nasty shunt on the start line once when a car two in front stalled and the guy behind instead of holding station decided to swing straight into my path then had the audacity to say it was my fault! Mind you his shell was a write off and I had a some cracks in the paint on my car's fibre glass bonnet and SMC nose section, tough old bumpers under that SMC on them yanks! I also lost it big time last year in the older car when someone laid a nice line of oil on the start finish line and the marshals did'nt mop it up properly, I dropped the clutch got going, hit the oil and slewed uncontrollable across the whole field and then back across the track narrowly missing the barriers, how everyone missed me is a miracal, yes I do like Rolling Starts and on balance I would say they are safer IMHO. Finally I was lined up at Pembrey the other week and in my left hooker could not even see the lights and had to wait till the car in front got moving to let me know we had started.

Following on from Rods Comments high lighting what happen at the WTCC event Imola over the weekend.
I would like to respond as follows.
Unfortunatley i witnessed 2 seperate accidents in one rolling start at the brit car 24 hour. ( one at the front of the field the other towards the rear) This bringing out the Safty car out for 1 hour while they cut the roof off of the car that had been punted into the pit wall. The driver was then hospitalised.
I cant see how a safety issue can be used to promote rolling starts, in any championship.
Lets face it MOTOR SPORT IS DANGEROUS.

BTW if you interested here is the start where I could not see the lights and before you say anything remember I am sitting on the left and the camera is on the right and high up also I think the car in front may have lined up on the wrong grid position, note how she fails to hook up and I have to get right out the gas, gimma a roller anyday! (BTW I am running in a new engine hence not taking it over 5500rpm, racers excuse number 161a) http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=zzOZ6lMotNs

just watched your u tube.

You have answered your own question the black dolimate seems on wrong side of track must be a marshallng fault.

Perhaps rolling or standing the starting light system needs an overhaul.

Bring back the union Jack.

Like I mentioned above, rolling or standing starts: neither is safe or overly dangerous. It can always go wrong. We had 3 cars written off at Spa on Sunday during two separate formation laps, not even on their warm up lap.

Maybe we should all start one at the time. But by then the last guy probably falls asleep on the grid creating another dangerous situation. :laugh:

Eddy what gap would you recomend for starting one at a time?

But if you start one at a time you don't get a race...you'd end up with a sprint....

Rolling or standing dont matter read Chris y in brit car thread
Perhaps our thoughts should go to Andy Neate and his wife it sounds like he is quite poorly

Yes he was in the wrong place its odd they started the race like that as a few had dropped out and when we lined up on the dummy grid he was over to the right giving me a clear run, got me off to a bad start you could say. In fairness to the driver he had literally sprinted over to his car after he had just raced a different car in the previous race which I believe he won so he probably was a tad confused.

Al i dont think that every body can always see the lights and relay on what is happening around them.Human nature says you will always have a preforance.Rolling or standing perhaps not enough drivers are speaking up to weather they can see the start marshall or lights.

There will never be a safe way to get a race going, that is obvious. But if all would pay a little more attention during the start it would probably help. And with all, I mean not only drivers, but marshals, startline marshals and cotc. Better to abort a start I think. But then often the timetable comes into problems.

What I've noticed is that whenever the cars are lined up very close to each other on a standing start, it does not often go wrong. Or when you have a very long straight with a rolling start. But how often is that?

Just a suggestion, maybe it should be written that if a car stalls or does not start in front of you then you should not be allowed to swerve around it until the rest of the pack has gone past.

Just a suggestion, maybe it should be written that if a car stalls or does not start in front of you then you should not be allowed to swerve around it until the rest of the pack has gone past.

Human nature Al, if something is infront and your going to hit you swerve.. takes a lot of willpower to plough straight into a car.

Also why should the car behind the stalled car be penalized for no fault of his/her own.

My views on rolling starts ...

Pace car, should go at a pace that keeps the field bunched.. (radio)
First 2 cars should maintain that pace (visably) untill the lights go out.
No weaving to warm the tyres after a marker board (before the last bend)
Anyone deemed to hold back to get a run up ... a penalty should be given.

So what about a 30-40mph rolling start speed limit .. all bunched .. lights out floor it, then shift into second, the revs should be high enough to save a stall, and the speed slow enough to keep the cars lined up.

Every driver can work out what 35mph is on the rev counter if they dont have a speedo, as for staying a cars length or two of the car infront ... look at the racecams .. the drivers can stay on someones bumper at 100mph:D

If the car were staggered accross the track and not directly behind each other at the start, then maybe you will get a bit more time to react if they stall?

I did'nt mean plow into the back of the stalled car I meant just hit the brakes and pull up behind it till the pack has gone, I know the haplass driver behind the stalled car would lose out but that is better as in my example having to reshell the car and no doubt inflicting damage on another innocent party in your desperation to get by, things happen dont make it worse is all i was saying.

How about for a Rolling Start that the race doesn't start until you pass the start line? The Pace Car would set the pace at say 40mph and every car would be expected to maintain that exact speed and position until they individually passed the start line.

This would rule out people stalling from Standing Starts and would definitely reduce the entry speed for the first corner making a Rolling Start safer.

At Combe last year I started so far back I was around the corner and couldn't even see the lights, the start was aborted but cars at the back were doing a hefty pace before we realised. I know Graham Bahr has been in a similar situation as I was, both thinking we were making a good start!

If we maintained, 40mph until the Start line it would make abandoning a start a much safer process, but equally importantly prevent most starts being abandoned. This rule could easily be enforced by an official with a speed gun standing by the line. Anyone exceeding say 50mph could be given a drive through/ 10 second/ 1 class position penalty?

I know that this may be starting to sound far fetched but anything that prevents accidents before the first corner is worth investigating thoroughly.

Just a suggestion, maybe it should be written that if a car stalls or does not start in front of you then you should not be allowed to swerve around it until the rest of the pack has gone past.

Remember Al.... Mirror - Signal - Manouver....... :rotate:

Well forget the signal bit but to look in yer mirror before pulling out on someone may not be such a bad idea.

BTW the engine I am using in the Video has the repaired Traco F5000 heads fitted and they are holding up fine.

I rekon you all need to go sprinting :rofl:

I rekon you all need to go sprinting :rofl:
Been there done that:p

What were your starts like?

What were your starts like?
Didn't stall once so I guess they were good;)

Didn't stall once so I guess they were good;)

Did you brake any drive shafts or clutches etc?

Nope,infact in nearly 30 years of doing standing starts in motorsport I've only ever broken something once,unfortunately it was both the diff and gearbox ot once(both escort mk1/2) on a rwd starlet.

sounds like a normal autotest injury that been there done that

sounds like a normal autotest injury that been there done that
Nope twas a damp downhill start on slicks:doh:

well 2 rolling starts yesterday did not get 1 right, could not see when to go or do i have to wait for the car infront to move? also there was a too bigger gap from front to back of field due to speed difference. Years ago when i was involved with 100cc karts some how the pack was bunched up better and the start signal was more visable.

The first rolling start for the intermarque was appalling. Everyone started racing as soon as the pace car pulled off. The rules state that the pole position driver sets the pace, keeping to about 40-50 mph. The race starts when the red lights go out, not before.

This all really needs discusing/explaining at the drivers breifing and if the lead cars get it wrong it messes up the rest of the field that are doing it correct! was this pointed out to the leaders at the event?. if the start was not going good why did the red light go out?

The Red light did not go out the safety car pulled in to the pit entry at the top of the hill and as soon as it did the front rows started to race and approached paddock at race speed out of control.Shame to see Ken pick up damage after a standing start.Goes to show accidents can happen during both starts it is down to the drivers and no one else to be sensible.

shoud the red light not of stayed red and red flags then!!

The red light did stay red.But if drivers decide to start racing at the top of the hill the light can be any colour it aint gonna make no difference.The thing is drivers are responsable for their driving, starting and actions and need to realise that this is club racing not major televised racing with big prize money and the race can not be won in the first corner especially in poor conditions that are cold and slippery.

I still come back to why was they not made to start again and do it properly simple red flag slapped wrists etc etc

Every body has made very valid points today. Ihave to be truthfull and say i colud not see the lights go out , i saw they were not on. so assumed we was racing as the speed picked up. Are the position of the lights correct?

The reason behind this thread is to highlight the pros and cons of standing and rolling starts this weekend we saw incidents with both.The drivers on the grid make a start safe or not.I have to say that I have been involved in standing starts and have not been able to see the lights due to a poor qualifying session which put me at the back or having a larger taller car in front.A 50/50 split of both is the way it should be done.

I dont feel standing or rolling is safer, but standing starts are controlled by the lights full stop if you jump them you get caught. so if you dont obay the rules for a rolling start why are they no penalised too

mig i agree but one of the races i was i the middle of the pack in not a particilar big grid , and still failed to lights actually go out.
P.S. i only need glasses for reading:cool:

do you not feel that you could not see the lights as the relativly small field for a rolling start had spread out to much highlighting my earlier points?

Big dave i was on row 4 in the first race so in fairness should not been problem, i know at 1 point i had gone forward too much so backed away perhaps there was no need i just would like to know wather i was the only one that did not see the lights go off.

I dont feel standing or rolling is safer, but standing starts are controlled by the lights full stop if you jump them you get caught. so if you dont obay the rules for a rolling start why are they no penalised too

Not at all mate I have jumped the lights at races and got away with it.I have also been at starts where the lights have failed and it has been carnage.

okay enough from me as I need to go and do some work now anyway, but i feel that at the next meeting this needs to be a bigger part of the drivers breifing to get this rolling start thing straight but thats just a mechies point of view stood on the side, is there any drivers that feel the same?

[quote=mig]Not at all mate I have jumped the lights at races and got away with it.quote]

Dont boast about it cheat;) :rofl:

Cheat! never bend the rules and play the game yes.

;)

I ask the question. Would there not be any value in putting the red start lights on once the last man has gone over the start line until the pole man is around and at the start line before turning them off.?

all the lights /clever gizmos in the world aint as good as a start marshal with a green flag at the start finish line ,every one can see that and if they are not happy go round again...job done..

Just to say after the poor start in the intermarque all of the drivers were asked to get out of their cars and were given a talking to, including being told that if they didn't get it right the second time they would all be thrown out of the meeting.

Rolling starts are difficult at Lydden as the pace car pulls off so early, that is why in the second races it pulled into the dummy grid area to try and keep the cars slowed down for longer.

The first rolling start for the intermarque was appalling. Everyone started racing as soon as the pace car pulled off. The rules state that the pole position driver sets the pace, keeping to about 40-50 mph. The race starts when the red lights go out, not before.

I wasn't there but if the start was that bad why didn't Race Control leave the lights on Red send them round again? Deducting 1 lap from the race distance.

scooby it was that bad ,i was half way down the hill and the leaders were off and running.them mad hotrodders.

The intermarque race should never have been allowed to start,a system of penalising the pole man if he dosent control the pack must be introduced other wise there is no point in having the pace car in the first place.We have had a lot of rolling starts in DMN,never had a reason to complain although I prefer standing starts and we all understand the rules so they must ne enforced.

The problem with the start is that they had started racing before they could even see the lights, so them being on red wouldn't have helped as they were already racing.

I was in race control for this start and they looked good when the pace car peeled in to the paddock, but they just didn't hold it until they came onto the start/finish straight.

Shame to see Ken pick up damage after a standing start.Goes to show accidents can happen during both starts it is down to the drivers and no one else to be sensible.

But, that was in the first corner, not the startline..

the idea behind a rolling start is to avoid startline collisions.

Did no one notice the other yellow escort get seriously sideways infront of the other starters on the standing start in the DMN race.. wouldnt have been the case in a rolling start.
We was watching the rolling start for the intermarque race, and as soon as Graham (PACECAR) pulled of it was pedal to the floor, the blame for that, the pole sitter.
Also perhaps Lyddens layout is to blame, with the pit entrance (haha) being 1 corner before the startline.

so really what we are all agreed on is why was the race left to run on a start like that, and why did the red light go out at all, and why was there not an imediate red flag and a restart. Regarding Kens damage it was just a racing incident again, he went for a gap that was probably not there and S!!T just happens

Lots depends on the track layout, Lydden is not the easiest for that.
Last week at Spa they mostly had rolling starts for the Historic meeting, as the fields were huge, the first guys were long on the Kemmel straight (after Eau Rouge) when the last ones went round La Source. Not fair either. And usually there was a crash anyhow at La Source, mainly all because of brainfade. But that is nothing new. :)

The red light did go out for the start of the 1st Intermarque race as you have to decide at the hairpin if you are going to go for a start...at that point everything was fine. If the red light had stayed on I don't think it would have made a difference, they were already racing before they came into paddock and I doubt they would have noticed it being on.

Rolling starts should be simple. Its about control. A standing start is controlled by the lights. A rolling start is controlled by the driver in pole position. If the remaining drivers are competent and can hold tight grid positions until the lights go out there should not be any issues.
The DMN rolling starts that I have been involved with this year have been fine. There will always be incidents with either type of start, after all we are racing.

I still come back to if the rolling start was not in a good formation why did the red light not come back on and red flags go out! By the way KJW get off here and get that front end sorted for Brands

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that in America, rolling starts go by the starter waving the green flag if he's happy with the formation, and a yellow if he's not. Seems a good simple solution to me. All that's needed then is a conversation between the starter and the front row as to what is required (maintain speed and formation until the flag is waved) and there's no reason why there should be any problems.

Could this be adopted? I have no idea what blue book says on the subject as to whether it would be allowed, of course.

The red light did go out for the start of the 1st Intermarque race as you have to decide at the hairpin if you are going to go for a start...at that point everything was fine. If the red light had stayed on I don't think it would have made a difference, they were already racing before they came into paddock and I doubt they would have noticed it being on.
If the red lights are left on until the poleman is within 50mtrs or so from the startline if the grid is not bunched up enough or the leader is going too fast they can be left as red and sent round again, and again until they are as they should be! Bet they will be much tighter formation 2nd time around! (and one lap deducted from the race length)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that in America, rolling starts go by the starter waving the green flag if he's happy with the formation, and a yellow if he's not. Seems a good simple solution to me. All that's needed then is a conversation between the starter and the front row as to what is required (maintain speed and formation until the flag is waved) and there's no reason why there should be any problems.

Could this be adopted? I have no idea what blue book says on the subject as to whether it would be allowed, of course.

Perfect solution, in time for next year?

The leader should have to maintain approx 50 mph for the whole lap, until the startline, with all the other cars in correct formation during that lap. Then the lights could go out to signal the start of the race - provided the starter is happy with the formation. Otherwise, the red light stays on and they go round until they get it right. Simple?
Certainly the rolling starts I did were chaotic IMHO.
PS Congrats Richard - well done mate!

Actualy,I thought it the most exciting start I have seen in a long time,much better than silly old standing starts and a lot more fun into Paddock.:nyah2:

If the red lights are left on until the poleman is within 50mtrs or so from the startline if the grid is not bunched up enough or the leader is going too fast they can be left as red and sent round again, and again until they are as they should be! Bet they will be much tighter formation 2nd time around! (and one lap deducted from the race length)

That is all well and good, and would work in 99 times out of 100, but as I said with the start that is being talked about here leaving the red light on would have made no difference as they were racing before they got to paddock, let alone the lights.

I think if anyone had slowed because the red light had been left on there would have been an almighty pile up so,the officials did the right thing as the pack was already started racing,maybe a red flag after the start but this is something to be clarified now.

The leader should have to maintain approx 50 mph for the whole lap, until the startline, with all the other cars in correct formation during that lap. Then the lights could go out to signal the start of the race - provided the starter is happy with the formation. Otherwise, the red light stays on and they go round until they get it right. Simple?
Certainly the rolling starts I did were chaotic IMHO.
PS Congrats Richard - well done mate!

Nice in principle, but try maintaining 50mph round the narrow parts at Cadwell, through Russell at Snett, round the hairpin at Lydden, etc. Even more fun trying this while running in 2x2 formation

I've been racing nine years and I've only ever really known rolling starts, I doubt I've done more than half a dozen standing starts in all that time. Occasionally the start has been a bit chaotic, but the clerk or the starter should have (and often has) made us go round again. I've accepted at many circuits the back rows are still coming round the last corner when the front guys reach the start line, even when we're well bunched up - I just listen for the guys up front accelerating and get on with my own start at that point. Don't forget, the race for EVERYONE starts when the lights go out, NOT when they cross the line

My 9 year old has just started karting, they only do rolling starts, admittedly from a lot slower speed - but what has amazed me is just how strict they are. I've barely watched a kart race which hasn't had at least one false start, on the third one the drivers get stopped on track and read the riot act!

My point is, rolling starts in themwselves are fine - but it is the responsibility of the front row guys to bunch up the pack as best as possible, the responsibility of every one else to stay with the car in front, and the responsibility of the clerk or starter to police the quality of the starts

nyssa7 that is exactly my feelings too

The whole issue of rolling starts was discussed by BARC s/e officials and it was agreed that the two front row starters will, in future, be specifically briefed as to what is expected. Furthermore, if a "start" is not satisfactory then the pace lap will continue for another lap, but time may be deducted from the race length.

Rod a good positive move by barc se:)

when the pole man gets it wrong and we lose a lap can we get the offender to stand in a corner with a pointy hat on too !!! lol

well done Rod I feel you now have a near perfect formula for everybody to race in now well done