The 'Credit Crunch' and the Future of Club Motor Sport

Did anyone else read Marcus Pye's thought-provoking column in this week's Autosport, relating to the credit crunch and how to reduce it's effect on club motor sport? It was sensibly suggested that clubs reduce the number of meetings by up to 25% in 2009, in order that competitors would not have to spend as much of their dwindling 'discretionary income' on their sport.

A long-term plan to safeguard the future of the sport would also include the willingness of circuit owners to avoid hiking circuit hire charges to compensate for the reduction in meetings (their loss of income possibly being countered by looking at other areas of revenue, such as track days), thus making less of a profit from clubs in 2009 so that there are still plentiful competitors around in 2010 and beyond.

Interestingly, Matt James' column in this week's MN was bemoaning the fact that the Race Championship Control Panel had sanctioned an increase in the number of championships to be run in the UK in 2009. He questioned the wisdom of having the panel of the RCCP made up of representatives from the leading organising clubs. He makes the point that, "You cannot ask clubs to be involved in this decision and limit their income. The decision needs to be taken out of their hands."

Should there be moves from the MSA (who should ensure that the decision-makers have only the good of the sport in general at heart) to make plans for the future prosperity of national motor sport? Is forcing a reduction in meetings the way to do this? Would competitors want this? It probably wouldn't mean less championships, just less rounds per championship.

What do people think?

Speaking as someone who had to cut his season short for this very reason, I don't think dropping the number of rounds would have helped me much. I could either justify the spend (I was earning money) or, as is the case now, the money has dried up and I can't justify ANY spend.

Its affecting us marshals too, I have had to cut the number of events I can do by some way this year and I'm having to be very selective for next season too, it will be interesting to see if any meetings are abandoned due to either a lack of competitors or a lack of marshals?

I too read Marcus Pye's column last Thursday, although I believe he speaks with good intentions, I don't think this initiative will work until the organizing clubs are staring bankruptcy in the face.
They are profit making companies, and will never take decisions which will detract from their profits. Before we see organising clubs taking steps for the good of the sport we will have to return to the situation of the seventies when events were organised by clubs staffed only by volunteers. The only volunteers left in the sport now are the marshals and the competitors.

I think the whole situation is scary with the news coming out of the States this weekend,think there will be a lot of people taking stock and maybe having to cut back on a lot of social activity not just motor racing.

Its affecting us marshals too, I have had to cut the number of events I can do by some way this year and I'm having to be very selective for next season too, it will be interesting to see if any meetings are abandoned due to either a lack of competitors or a lack of marshals?

If I had any spare money, I'd bet on cancelled meetings......not necessarily competitors, but marshals - simply through the cost of petrol preventing them getting to circuits.

It is a valid point that the problem may prove to be more a lack of marshals than a lack of competitors (probably a bit of both).

It is also true that clubs will have their profit & loss figures in mind when deciding how many meetings they organise next year. This is precisely why clubs should be forced, by an independent body (operating under the auspices of the MSA), to reduce the number of meetings. This independent body should be looking to devise a plan to ensure the long-term health of our sport.

As Mark Hughes wrote in Autosport (Sep 13, 2007), "We are all custodians of this sport: fans, media, participants, governing body. With a duty to look after it. It doesn't really belong to any of us - it was around before any of us and might, with a bit of luck and careful management, be around after us - and just asks of us a bit of upkeep and regular maintenance."

Those that run the organising clubs in this country may need to do some serious soul-searching, then get together and choose the good of the sport above fiscal gain.

I think the whole situation is scary with the news coming out of the States this weekend,think there will be a lot of people taking stock and maybe having to cut back on a lot of social activity not just motor racing.You got more money than the Queen Eric!

Is there genuinely less money available to spend or have we all been conned by the press? The only problem I can see at the moment is inflation probably closer to 20% rather than the 5% figure we are being fed by the govt and BoE.
If you have a job and are getting your wages each week/month then what's changed, if you haven't got a job then you won't be able to afford racing anyway.
Admittedly a few people in the city are now out of work or may be taking pay cuts but having entrusted my money with them and they have ****ed it up the wall I have little sympathy for them.
So is this hype or have some people been living beyond their means and it's now all come home to roost?
Graham, it's true, Eric has more money than quite a lot of queens. :laugh:

Ihave to admit up front that I have not read Marcus Pye's article, but the thing that concerns me is where will the funding i.e sponsorship come from?Personally ,I do not want to see the return of the days when "he who had most money" took all the wins/plaudits etc.Then again, I DO want to see motorsport survive........
Snett fan55

Ihave to admit up front that I have not read Marcus Pye's article, but the thing that concerns me is where will the funding i.e sponsorship come from?Personally ,I do not want to see the return of the days when "he who had most money" took all the wins/plaudits etc.Then again, I DO want to see motorsport survive........
Snett fan55


The reality is that sponsorship in club racing is very limited, a well funded driver at that level is almost always running on family, or a family business money.

yep its all doom and gloom! Shall we stop now ? No lets spend the next 6 months pulling our country together and earn the money so we can go raceing and have some thing to look foward too! Perhaps circuit owners and organizing bodies have got to be like the rest and give value for money.

yeah I will go along with that and the old threat 'Oh we will sell it off for housing land' won't cut so much ice now will it? They really need to make some substancial cuts now to encourage people back in, 200 quid for 10 laps of Silverstone club circuit (total of about 30 track miles if you include qually) which is what we paid last weekend in my book is appalling value for money.

yeah I will go along with that and the old threat 'Oh we will sell it off for housing land' won't cut so much ice now will it? They really need to make some substancial cuts now to encourage people back in, 200 quid for 10 laps of Silverstone club circuit (total of about 30 track miles if you include qually) which is what we paid last weekend in my book is appalling value for money.

You're right Al, that is poor. I thought we were hard done by at the same event. At least we got 96miles for £410 and the use of the garages.

Man what I would'nt have given for a garage last weekend!!!

It's time for the circuits to start running and marketing the meetings, to get the punters through the gate, and make their money that way. Fill up the stands, even if it's a fiver a car, and people will use the facilities - adding to the take.

They can then reduce the entry fee's, get more cars out, and the circle is almost complete.

I totally agree with R59, all the marketing goes into the big meetings but the club meetings which give excellent entertainment never get a mention.

As an aside, is there a minimum number of marshals that need to be on post for an event to take place? Preferably without resorting to counting trainees.

I think we all agree with that Rob.

get real guys, half full grids, too many championships, strung out races. No average joe is going to bring his family to a clubbie.

unless you have stronger infrastructure, you are going to to continue get empty grandstands.

how do i know this? well i was the only guy stood at silversone clubbie the other weekend!

But as Rob suggests if the entry fee was slashed to say 50 quid then maybe there wouldnt be half empty grids, someone has to make the first move here.

I've said it over and over again: admission fees are far too high in the UK. £10 to 15 for a smaller event, for that fee you can get into most big events on the continent.

There is a "minimum" for marshals on post, but I forgot. Nowadays there are only a few marshals per post anyhow, my last event at Brands there were 4 of us on a rather big post.
Yesterday I was at Spa for (part of) a 24 hour 2cv race and there were 152 marshals in total, 8 posts were left empty and even Blanchimont and the very top of Eau Rouge were left without marshals untill in the early afternoon.

But I agree with Rob and Al, get the price down and people will come. Same goes with public transport for that matter.

I have a good friend, not skint by any means and has a car ready to go but he just refuses to cough up £200 for a clubbie 10 laps of Silverstone, he can afford it I am sure but he cannot justify it so he dont come out.

I've gone the same way Al, I only do the best value races that also interest me.

Problem is that the circuit owners need to start the ball rolling by dropping thier hire fee's,then[perhaps] the organisers will follow suit.Its an area that has needed looking at for a long while,admission/entry fee's are all way too high,as Eddy said,in europe the circuit owners are much more realistic which means the organisers dont need to charge so much on the gate.15 Euros for a whole weekends spectating at Spa,compare that with Silverstone Classic!

Well there is no time like the present and as I said they aint gonna get the return selling them off for development now. There was a Texaco filling station opposite my shop, for the last year they have been building flats on the site, must have cost a fortune and thats what they are asking for the flats, up to £535,000 for a 2 bed!!! Guess what thay hav'nt sold a single unit.

Problem is that the circuit owners need to start the ball rolling by dropping thier hire fee's,then[perhaps] the organisers will follow suit.Its an area that has needed looking at for a long while,admission/entry fee's are all way too high,as Eddy said,in europe the circuit owners are much more realistic which means the organisers dont need to charge so much on the gate.15 Euros for a whole weekends spectating at Spa,compare that with Silverstone Classic!I can't see how they will cut prices, they still have the same if not higher overheads to cover. I'd wouldn't be overly surprised if hire costs increased significantly to cover what could be lower usage next year.

I can't see how they will cut prices, they still have the same if not higher overheads to cover. I'd wouldn't be overly surprised if hire costs increased significantly to cover what could be lower usage next year.

And I won't be overly surprised if they don't have many takers !

I agree with Gordon, that would be suicide, I for one am on the limit of what I will pay, £200 for 10 laps is just too expensive.

A few more regional (or single circuit) series for the club racer might help lower the overall costs by lowering transport and accom costs and reducing the need (?) to go testing.

Thats no good as there are no tracks in Watford! :-)

The circuits are going to be in a heck of a state financially. This is all going to hit them very hard indeed.

If they put up their fees, we won't go, they'll make less money than before, and it'll all get very sad.

The corporate entertainment & experiences market is going to take a hit. Right now it's keeping going on the vouchers bought for last Christmas or birthdays earlier in the year I'd bet. Once that dries up, it'll start to quieten down.

The general testing will fizzle out as people drop testing as an expense they can live with out, just so they can keep racing a little longer.

What's there solution?

To get the public in. And to do that, you have to put stuff on that the public want to see. What's more, there's no point in just doing it, and not telling the masses that you're going to do it, so they have to market the events.

Racing, bands, shows, events, funfairs, etc... something for all of the family.

To make things more interesting, mixed genre racing - with races for cars, bikes, karts, trucks. Obviously you start the day with the bikes, then karts, then cars, then finish off with trucks.

Between races you have on-track demonstrations, stunt riders, drivers, etc...

It'll cost money to make it happen, but the return should be very profitable - to the point where the racing is part of the show, and not at the expense of the competitor.

If this recession goes the way that some analyists think it might, then the one in the early 90's will look like a minor hiccup, and we're in for a rough ride for the next few years. Thanks Dubya!

One major factor difference this time I believe from several I others I have lived and survived through is that the interest rates are not insanely high and may even come down further so I cannot see how it is goingto be as bad as in the 80's when the rates grew by about 10% up to 15% was it? I remember my mortage at the time increased by about £400 a month and that was on 80's wages, it was very tough especially as the home improvement companies I was subbing to went under. Get these bloody energy prices down to a managable size and stop trying to lead the world in green issues when our biggest rivals (China and India) refuse to play ball, why does the UK always have to play honest Johnny?

One thing to remember is that there will always be the new blood entering racing who won't think it's too expensive. Like us when we started they will think it's the norm and accept it, it won't be until they have got four or five years down the road, they've been there and done it and then realise they are being shafted that they will start seriously thinking about it.
Funnily enough, or not, something similar was said to me when I started racing 8 years ago.

I am not so sure Tim, everytime I tell younger people when they ask what do you get for winning etc and tell them nothing and generally pay 200 quid for the privalidge they look at me as though I am quite insane, they may well be right!

Sorry guys, but just saying "reduce entry fees" just won't cut it with the circuit owners - they make much more money out off trackdays anyway. And besides, they are under the same finacial constraints as everyone else.

If you really want to reduce your entry fees - then I'm afraid it is down to you, the racer, to do something about it, starting with asking your organising club to buy their own grids (i.e. not from BARC etc), and then fill them (and I mean fill them to at least 90-95% capacity every race), dividing the cost of the race between all the participants.

At the moment, even if your series fills every grid at every track you go to, you are more than likely subsidising another series where only ten or fifteen people turn up, via the BARC or whatever. I'm afraid the days where that was a successful business model are behind us, as there just aren't going to enough people with more money than sense to make it work.

This isn't a flight of fancy either, it's already being done with the Project 8 Racing club (aka TTRS and PBMW), and I think they are not the only ones (can't remember if it is the MX5's or the MR2's that do somthing similar, plus of course there are the very successful individual circuit based series, such as at Castle Combe etc).

An example: lets compare the BARC event that Big Al did at Silverstone National earlier this month, against the Project 8 event at the Silverstone Grand Prix circuit I did back in September.

BARC event - £200 for a fifteen min race and fifteen mins practice (is that right Al?) on Silverstone National. That works out at £6.60p per min or £5.08p per mile.

Project 8 event - £250 for a twenty min practice, and two half hour races on the Silverstone Grand Prix Circuit. That works out to £3.13p or £2.17p per mile.

The sacrifice of course is that you either have to be in a popular class that can fill the grid no mater where you go, or accept running on a joint grid with other series/championships or whatever.

It's up to us - if you really want to save money, make the change and shop around for your racing: it's a free market.

If you like the status quo, keep giveing your money to the big clubs to divide among the huge number of series and championships out there, successful or otherwise.

Just don't hold your breath waiting around for someone else to fix it, saying that entry fees are too high. Your the ones paying the money, it's your choice.

Motor Sport is not a cheap hobby and everyone who takes part knows this. Entry fees are just a minor element of racing. The major cost being the car, racewear, tyres, travelling, accommodation, repairs. etc. Cut the entry fee in half and it won't make much difference to the annual cost. If it is really something you want to do then you will pay and justify to yourself that it is worth it. The problem is that everything that is to do with motor sport is expensive. The costs need to be cut across the board.

kjw, you must be one of the new people in motor racing, of course entry fees are a major cost. The car is a capital asset, all the time it's in one piece that is, race wear has a life of say 5 or 10 years. When I started 8 years ago, a short race was 20-25 minutes for say £130ish at Brands Hatch and maybe a double header at Lydden for £110, those cost have in a lot of cases more than doubled and the time has been cut to a short race being 10 or 15 minutes which in real terms can mean a 4 fold increase. It is a big part of the budget and value for money counts. Cut the entry fee in half and it would pay the year's fuel bill and buy me a set of tyres.

Entry fees are just a minor element of racing.
kjw I suggest that you pay for my race entry in the Heritage at Brands 25/26 if you think its cheap £628 00 ! :)

kjw I suggest that you pay for my race entry in the Heritage at Brands 25/26 if you think its cheap £628 00 ! :)

Damn, too slow - I was hoping that KJW would be my sponsor...

£628? Wow.

Out of interest, how long is the race and what track are you on? For that sort of money Dr Palmer should be cheuffeuring you to the track in his helicopter and letting you pick the grid-girls uniforms...

Gordon maybe I should have left out the word minor! I would love to be able to sponsor you but I could do with a sponsor myself. That entry fee is exorbitant, that is three times more than I normally pay. However I still maintain that entry fees are just a part of the overall cost of racing and every aspect is expensive. But it always has been and is unlikely to get cheaper.

OK its actually 2 half hour races on the Indy circuit. But considering it cost me £450 for a one hour race on arguably one of the best circuits (Spa) the other week it does seem a bit OTT. I will point out that we do get hospitality for that price, but my sponsor supplies the beer :)

Filling the grid is the problem though and with TTRS you are effectively combining two races together to get the numbers up i.e. PBMW and the Pre-94's, not knocking or trying to be confrontational it but thats what is happening as I see it. Now thats OK but we have to make up our minds is this is what is wanted as I know for a fact that some guys in our Classics just dont want to race with the later Post Historic (maybe its me?;) ) and in fact would rather be in a grid of 20 or so cars, btw does'nt F1 only run 18 on the grid so you dont need vast numbers of cars out there to have a race but that is not the issue here. I think personally there is milage in what Highside suggests but but it needs two groups of racers and one that prehaps does not mind playing the cannon fodder role and getting repeated lapped by much more powerful cars but I wonder how long it will be before the shine rubs off of that cheap entry or not, I guess only time will tell.

Thats an awful lot of money Gordon, I am sorry I know I complained at the £200 for the Silverstone event but I would rather do three of those and have change than what you are paying. Not talking about track time either as to be honest 12 or 14 laps is enough for me and i would rather string it out over three separate meetings as its the occassion I enjoy and being part of it as much if not more than the race.

I am sorry I know I complained at the £200 for the Silverstone event but I would rather do three of those and have change than what you are paying. .
But in real terms 3 seperate meetings at Silverstone would cost a dammed sight more than £600. But I am on your side and still think we are being shafted big time, and my money tree was cut down a while back !!!

Yes I realise that but I would prefer to have the track time spread over three separate events and occassions than all the racing on one day as I said I prefer being part of the actual event and occassion to the race itself and cannot do more than so many laps and if I am honest get a bit bored after about 14 laps and I am not that fit either and just want the race to finish, each to their own I guess maybe I just want to get away from the old woman :-).

Filling the grid is the problem though and with TTRS you are effectively combining two races together to get the numbers up i.e. PBMW and the Pre-94's, not knocking or trying to be confrontational it but thats what is happening as I see it.

Hi Al,

Nothing confontational there Al - thats exactly how it is. But by combining together, we both benefit from the lower costs.

If you have the attitude that a class win is as good as an overall win (and make the effort to reward it accordingly with garlands, trophys, podiums etc), then I think two similar but seperate race series can race together for mutual benefit, and everyones a winner.

I know what your saying with classics and post historics. There has to be mutual consent between combining grids, and if one isn't happy with the other (or the speed differential is too different), then no one will be happy.

I guess its horses for courses, but if you want to race in a grid of ten or fifteen, then unfortunetly it's going to cost you more, unless you relly on well backed grids to subsurdise you, which nowerdays will become more and more tricky...

gosh I don't know how ALL you guys can afford such expensive track time. My last race weekend cost me £1.44 per mile or £2.10 per minute whichever way you want to look at it; and no it wasn't in the UK and yes it was on one of the finest circuits in the world (2.5 hours at the 'Ring over 3 days).:D :D

Trust me David, if i could do every race at the ring I would...

Well I am happy to combine in fact the Classics had a race at Cadwell this year and I asked if I could join in as a guest entry and was declined which when they ended up with around 20 cars IMHO is daft. HSCC has granted me a guest entry at the forthcoming Walter Hayes support race in my 70's car and IMHO that is the way forward, i.e. flexibility.

Someone mentioned that the circuits earn more from trackdays, well a while ago i was wondering how come trackdays are cheaper ....

The day was an open pitlane, 9am till 5pm for £225
there was about 50 cars there, even if there was a 100 work out the figures.

The DMN is cheap, but they get charged around under £200 with a ful grid, so less cars and slightly less money, for 1/2-3/4's of an hour.

I was there with an Escort,new engine, new suspension, bit of a testday, now the drivers been to the DMN, and enjoyed it, would he come out and race instead of sprinting, nope, the costs are too high, and he said for the same money i can blast around all day here, not just half an hour. And he added that hes picking and choosing sprints as they are getting expensive.

so if we just look at round figures ..

200 for the day, times the 50 cars equals £10,000 to Brands
200 for the race's, times the 30 cars (DMN) equals £6,000
then you have another 4-8 championships there,their costs may be higher with less cars, or lower with more, so we will take the average as £200x 30 cars.

Trackday £200x 50 cars there = £10,000
Race day £6,000/ championships x 6 = £36,000

so from my simple maths, and perhaps i'm missing something, or i'm completly wrong , but if Brands can run a trackday for £26,000 less than a race day, then why are the fees so high ?

Thats without adding gate prices .. 22,000* people at £15/person for the final round of the DMN (ok there was some trucks there :) ) ...
thats £330,000, plus the championships £36,000...
Total £366,000 !!!!!!!!

And yet they can run a trackday for £10,000 .. sorry but it smacks of something smelly when they say they cant lower the costs to the clubs


* i know thats a huge gate, but hey, i'm trying to make the circuits look bad, the week before they had 18k through the gates for the BTCC

You are missing something and a very important something, all the track days (except winter ones) are exclusively held on weekdays whereas races are always at weekends. I am sure if we were prepared to race during the week they would cut us a similiar deal but then you would also have problems getting marshals to take time off work so thats not goingto happen.

For a club to hire somewhere like Brands Indy circuit on either a Saturday or Sunday it costs well over £20,000 plus VAT. On top of that there are the timekeepers fees (often over £1600 per day), then there is the MSA permit, costs for recovery vehicles, doctors, paramedics, ambulances, scrutineers, some clubs either pay a small amount to marshals or provide raffle prizes.
MSV will argue that they "promote" the truck meetings by advertising them in the local press, radio and sometimes on TV.

You are missing something and a very important something, all the track days (except winter ones) are exclusively held on weekdays whereas races are always at weekends. I am sure if we were prepared to race during the week they would cut us a similiar deal but then you would also have problems getting marshals to take time off work so thats not goingto happen.

The land, the tarmac, the buildings dont know if its a monday or a sunday.

The overheads stay the same no matter what day it is

And at that trackday there was an ambulance, recovery and catering .. yes on a smaller scale, but then as shown, so was the fees.

I'm sure £300,000 buys a lot of recovery, doctors etc

Thing is Gary, the circuit has quite a lot of money to pay out over the course of a year, to pay for that land, tarmac, buildings, etc.

Obviously there are only so many race weekends that can take place, so the rest of the money comes from trackdays, corporate events, etc.

If those events didn't happen, race meetings would have to be more expensive to make up the shortfall.

Or are you suggesting that the circuits charge more for weekday trackdays, and make the racing weekends cheaper? That will more than likely drive away trackday customers, resulting in more of a shortfall, which will have to be taken up by the racing customers.. It's not a simple fix.

The overheads stay the same no matter what day it is


Seriously? You tried getting enough marshals, senior officials, medics, timekeepers etc. to adequately man a mid week race meeting to MSA standards?

I'll turn up to a small number of "big" Friday meetings for free but you aint getting any more of my hard earned (and expensive!) holiday....

Seriously? You tried getting enough marshals, senior officials, medics, timekeepers etc. to adequately man a mid week race meeting to MSA standards?

I'll turn up to a small number of "big" Friday meetings for free but you aint getting any more of my hard earned (and expensive!) holiday....

Most club drivers work for a living as well, so anything other than a weekend event turns out very expensive for them too.

Thing is Gary, the circuit has quite a lot of money to pay out over the course of a year, to pay for that land, tarmac, buildings, etc.

exactly .. 'over the year' middweek costs of land are the same as the weekend.

Obviously there are only so many race weekends that can take place, so the rest of the money comes from trackdays, corporate events, etc..

yes the rest of the money comes from those events, which tend not to have spectators, those same spectators that pay even more money into the coffers, so why does a race meet have to earn 100k, when a trackday only has to earn 10k
Fairs fair and all that, but remember, the racing makes the most, so drop a few quid off the drivers, even 50 quid off, say 150 drivers is only £7,500, that from say a race meet that earns £200,000 is a drop in an ocean, but that £50 to a racer... and may see other drivers coming .. if the £50 off a £300 race meet brings in 25 more drivers, well thats the £7,500 made up.


It's not a simple fix.

its only as complicated as people want to make it, supermarkets pile it high, sell it cheap ...

Seriously? You tried getting enough marshals, senior officials, medics, timekeepers etc. to adequately man a mid week race meeting to MSA standards?

I'll turn up to a small number of "big" Friday meetings for free but you aint getting any more of my hard earned (and expensive!) holiday....


You totally missed my point.. a weekday full track session needs 10k to run, yet a weekend day costs over £200,000 .... what i'm saying, is the air at weekends suddenly charged for? , ok medics, recovery etc are needed in bigger numbers, but Marshalls, you guys do it it for free, and thank god you do, so are the medics, breakdown trucks, and time keepers costing .. what .. £190,000 ???

Racing on a weekday wont work, i'm just pointing out that weekdays, the track costs the same as weekends, its the same tarmac remember.

I think you need to re-do your sums as they are WAY out by a major factor!!

Firstly, track hire costs for the major circuits are in the range of £15,000 to £25,000 per day plus vat. Midpoint £20,000 +vat = 23,500

Next you have to factor in the per-capita charges from the MSA (Insurance, permit fees etc) Basing it on a 10 race programme with an average grid of 20 cars per race this comes to a figure north of £4,500.

Add the doctors (two are required for racing) at say £200 each, plus a nurse or two, paramedics, radiographer etc to staff the med centre. Easily get to £1,000 for the medical staff.

Recovery vehicles, say three to adequately cover the meeting at £500 each, another £1500. Rescue Units are required by the track licence, normally two at say anther £500 each. Another £1,000 to the total cost.

Then there are the MSA Steward, scrutineers etc expense (because they are volunteers and dont get paid) say another £2,500

So, total cost is in the area of £32,500 for a one day meeting.

Entry fees would be 200 at £175 =£35,000, out of which the organisers have to get programmes printed, results photocopied etc

The circuits keep the gate, which at a normal club event probably wouldn't cover the cost of printing the tickets!

If you want to check the figures, go to the Blue Book.

SWC, speaking of re-doing sums, where can you get an entry fee of £175, a single header event with the BARC is about £220 which makes the income from entries £44k

Bob, Good call. Been a few years since paying that for entries. However my point still stands. Also, do BARC still do the reduced entry fee if you enter two races at the event? Would need to factor that in as well. I am sure I have missed off other incidental costs as well.
There isn't a huge great pot of money being hoarded by the organising clubs from Club racing

Bob, Good call. Been a few years since paying that for entries. However my point still stands. Also, do BARC still do the reduced entry fee if you enter two races at the event? Would need to factor that in as well. I am sure I have missed off other incidental costs as well.
There isn't a huge great pot of money being hoarded by the organising clubs from Club racing

There is a sort of reduction for entering two races, a BARC double header is a little over £400 so that shows a small reduction that is complicated by the fact that double headers are usually over two days, which even if that doesn't earn a circuit hire reduction at certainly reduces some overheads.

I'm sure you are right when you say that clubs are not hoarding money, but the difference between now and the "good old days" and I say that with tongue in cheek, is that the clubs have a large number of salaried staff doing work wkich long ago was done by volunteers who simply loved the sport. Now, a lot of people stand between the racer and the grid making a living from "helping".

........ Now, a lot of people stand between the racer and the grid making a living from "helping".

Hit the nail right on the head there; unfortunately in today's society there are far more takers than givers and I don't think it possible to turn the clock back, so
:flog:

What's there solution?

To get the public in. And to do that, you have to put stuff on that the public want to see. What's more, there's no point in just doing it, and not telling the masses that you're going to do it, so they have to market the events.

Marketing is key, and it doesn't need to expensive. I'm always looking out for events to attend, but even for me when I'm specifically looking, it's still really easy to miss things. There have been many occasions this year where I've felt that certain events don't seem interested in spectators attending, which is bizarre considering the event is set-up to accept them.

The Longleat Hillclimb amazed me this year, they had spent the money setting it up for spectators to visit, but forgot to tell anyone! I fortunately caught wind of it the night before, even though I only live 5 miles away, and when I shared my photos after the event I had loads of "I had no idea this was on" comments. The Britcar 24hr was another good one, they got the most amazing press in the form of nearly a full episode of Top Gear the previous year, yet completely failed to capitalize on that for 2008, as a spectator it was an extremely frustrating experience planning to attend, there was simply no information, which is kind of essential when you want to plan to stay overnight.

Once the facilities are set up, any extra spectators are essentially 'free' money for an event, as the costs won't increase if 100 people show up instead of 10. I would say though, that many events have been prohibitively expensive this year, with petrol prices being so high, it's extremely hard to justify that cost and then a further £20 on top to enter the event, it ends up making a day out very very expensive.

From a purely spectator point of view, motorsport in this country can be a frustrating experience, which is a shame as it would be relatively cheap and easy to fix the problems many of us experience.

I'm sure you are right when you say that clubs are not hoarding money, but the difference between now and the "good old days" and I say that with tongue in cheek, is that the clubs have a large number of salaried staff doing work wkich long ago was done by volunteers who simply loved the sport. Now, a lot of people stand between the racer and the grid making a living from "helping".

And that with respect is I believe how (not sure and prepared to stand corrected) Highside's TTRS get their entries down or at least using volounteers to do the admin goes a long way towards it but I would like to honestly know how long can they be relied on to do this as just looking after one championship and not doing any entries whatsoever became a pain for me after a few years.

One thing in defence of some clubs and how much they charge, if you take the MGCC meeting at Snetterton a couple of weeks ago then the Sunday was rained off. I doubt MSV will refund anything for that but the club are refunding all the drivers entry fees. They will take quite a hit on that meeting and unless they had rain insurance then they would need a healthy balance sheet to cover it.

200 for the day, times the 50 cars equals £10,000 to Brands
200 for the race's, times the 30 cars (DMN) equals £6,000
then you have another 4-8 championships there,their costs may be higher with less cars, or lower with more, so we will take the average as £200x 30 cars.

Trackday £200x 50 cars there = £10,000
Race day £6,000/ championships x 6 = £36,000


SWC, you just backed up what i had guestimated in my first post ... ;)


So, total cost is in the area of £32,500 for a one day meeting.

My large figure of over £300,000 was at the Truck Grand prix which had a gate of 22,000 people.

And by your own admission your say the entry fees would be ...

Entry fees would be 200 at £175 =£35,000, out of which the organisers have to get programmes printed, results photocopied etc

which when the entry fees are corrected to £45,000 gives in the area of £12,500 to print some programmes and results...

Now if we say its a small gate of 5000 people at £15 a ticket, thats another £75,000 ... and all i'm saying is drop the entry fees by 50 quid , which on a 200 car entry is 10k from 75k .. and thats 10k if the reduction didnt entice more cars.

another 50 entries at £200 would see that 10k re-couped.

Remember, these figures are the small ones, low entry fees, and low gate price. What was the BTTC or the DTM price, £35 a head, and at the final there was 18,000 people ..thats £630,000

Stone me, surely they can drop £50 of an entry

And that with respect is I believe how (not sure and prepared to stand corrected) Highside's TTRS get their entries down or at least using volounteers to do the admin goes a long way towards it but I would like to honestly know how long can they be relied on to do this as just looking after one championship and not doing any entries whatsoever became a pain for me after a few years.

Yes, we are very fortunate in haveing a group of people who put in a hell of a lot of effort for Project 8, and like a lot of people who make things happen in motorsport, on a purely volounteer basis.

Frankly they are all heros.

It's not a big part of keeping the entrys down (maybe 5 or 10% or the saving I would guess), but it's certainly helps and is greatly appreciated.

However, my understanding of it is that 90~95% of the cost saving is down to buying a grid, filling it, then dividing the cost evenly between those taking part.

If you don't fill the grid, it won't work. Simple.

"Highside's TTRS"

It's not mine!.. but I am a very happy competitor in it.

Divide the total race day cost by 7 hours to get a rough cost per hour, allow for clean up time between qualifying; gridding up time; green flag lap and clear up after the race and you soon see why entry fees are what they are from the organising clubs.
Full grids are the only way to reduce race fees for the club racer.

I don't know which small clubbies you have seen with 5,000 spectators Gary, but at the majority of the meetings I've been to this year, I know the names of all the spectators. Gate income is negligible.

As described by Highside, there's no secret to achieving low entry fees.

pm me if you think that we can be of any help.

Divide the total race day cost by 7 hours to get a rough cost per hour, allow for clean up time between qualifying; gridding up time; green flag lap and clear up after the race and you soon see why entry fees are what they are from the organising clubs.
Full grids are the only way to reduce race fees for the club racer.

I don't know which small clubbies you have seen with 5,000 spectators Gary, but at the majority of the meetings I've been to this year, I know the names of all the spectators. Gate income is negligible.

As described by Highside, there's no secret to achieving low entry fees.

pm me if you think that we can be of any help.


To the best of my knowledge ( unless someone can correct me) I don't know of any championship which runs with BARC that gets an entry fee reduction because it has a full grid, and there certainly are some full grids.

The organising clubs necessarily have to take a view of how many racers they will get across a season and set a price accordingly.

If they discounted full grid entry fees to pro-rated cost, then fifteen car grids would be paying £320-£360 for a 15 min qually and 15 min race in order to compensate.

Of course the clubs also develop and seed new initiatives so that there will always be grids that start small with potential to grow.
Difficult to see how they would get started if race entry fees were entirely pro-rata.

Did I dream it, or did I read a year or so ago that the events at Castle Combe are now run by volunteers? If that is correct is there anyone on this thread who knows what the entry fees are for those events?

To sum up the last few pages, and its just my opinion, and ideas

Problem ....
cost to the racers, clubs, and circuits.

Solution for the circuits...........
More people through the turnstiles
To achieve that the races need to be exciting enough to drag people away from the TV.
What makes a race exciting? full grids
How do we get full grids? the costs to the racer needs to be affordable
We have seen on here, that the circuits seem to be keeping the costs to the clubs as low as possible, yet some clubs field 10-15 cars, an example, the Ford Saloons, costs have gone up, and this year from full grids before to half empty grids, and on thier unofficial forum, they all say, costs.
So to get full grids the the costs need to be reduced.

Solution for the clubs.........
Reduce fees to use the circuit

The clubs provide the entertainment by getting a bunch of nutters to spend hours in a garage building car, and then allowing them to get together and thrash the living daylights out of those cars.
I cant see what else the clubs can do to lower the costs, apart from trying to promote their events, but this would increase costs.


Solution for the drivers..........
More drivers out there

But again, it comes to costs, to get more drivers out there, the racing needs to be cheaper.

Perhaps an answer to fuller grids, closer more exciting for spectator is some of the smaller fields to join. Horrible as it may seem to them to join, but it may be their survival route. I'll admit i havnt looked at the one makes, but what if 2 small series joined, with the same sort of cars, MGF and MR2 for example... maybe they both have full grids allready but you get the idea.

Or even missmatched cars, a grid of AAAAA's starting 30 (or whaterver) seconds before a grid of BBBBB's and all finishing at about the same time..



We all have to try to get the answers, spectators are the ones that will help, we need to get them away from the TV's, perhaps on those rounds where the gates have seen one person through it, could it be a free gate. A taster of motorsport...

THIS WEEKEND AT SILVERBRANDSHILL

A FANTASTIC FREE WEEKEND OF MOTORSPORT

COME AND WATCH THE THRILLS CLOSE UP

SMELL THE ATMOSPHERE

TASTE THE EXCITMENT

HEAR AND FEEL THE POWER

etc etc

and maybe the spectators would come, new ones and ones that had become couch potatoes, and maybe just maybe it would lead to them paying next weekend ..and the weekend after.. and the weekend after that.



Like i said, its only my opinion and ideas, pull them apart, shoot me down, but come up with some other ideas

Bob, see your pm

I think unfortunately that all the marketing and publicity in the world doesn't consistently get people through the doors in sufficient numbers.

I think (and I'm sure there are people around who could tell you) that Rockingham demonstrated that whilst you give away free tickets people come to your race meetings but that when you stop giving away free tickets they go and do something else. Rockingham also put all sorts of family entertainment on, had a circuit that you could see from most of the seats and had decent toilets. I know it has it's haters but from a punters point of view it was a pretty good experience. WSR is another good example, I know lots of people who go because it was a free day out, they have no interest in motorsport and wouldn't go again unless it was free. I was always a believer that this didn't matter as they bought food/merchandise when they were in the circuit but I now don't think that is enough for the circuit owner to make money.

Sadly, we have to accept that many people don't find motorsport entertaining and even with full grids it's really a bit niche. There are lots of F1 fans but they have little interest in anything else.

JP and MSV have spent a lot of money marketing the big meetings at Brands, WTCC, DTM, A1GP etc. and putting on family focused entertainment and the returns haven't been great. The biggest factor seems to be the weather, if we pull of a good day then punters come, get a bad day and they go shopping. Circuits try to address this by discounting pre-purchased tickets but lots of folks just wait to see what the weather brings before setting out for the day - I guess motorsport isn't fun when you're trying to keep dry and keep a couple of small people happy. The only thing that got lots of folks through the gate was having Lewis Hamilton at the DTM round, the place was packed which was great for that event but will they come back without that draw? Could you manage that for every event - probably not.

On a more positive (!) note, I wonder if the credit crunch will mean that the price of some cars that are for sale will come down making them more affordable to those that are thinking of going racing?! Sellers may have to accept a lower price than they wanted, if they need cash in a hurry for other things. Not so positive if you are a seller, I admit!

Gary

Specators
There is an excellent thread on here from a couple of years ago discussing how to get spectators back into race meetings with many good looking ideas from marketing people. No point in going through it all again here IMHO.

Circuit owners.
I can't see how they can reduce the hire fees unless they cut their profits or investment in improvements. They are businesses who have to make a profit and we all like the idea of clean functioning toilets and showers, electrical hook ups*, tarmac paddocks and the like. Having had sight of very basic operating costs of one circuit, the hire fees seemed commensurate with costs and a sensible margin.

*Having witnessed the growth of motorhome ownership at Club racing level, some on a par with F1 of yesteryear, there are clearly people for whom a race entry fee is petty cash. So we need not concern ourselves about them.

Organising Clubs
As documented above, the organising clubs have costs on top of the hire charge to run a meeting, and the oveheads of running their business. Perhaps there's a possibility of cost reduction here, but I cannot imagine it would be other than miniscule.

Racers
Well, yes that's what is open to any of us as described by you and other posters. It's not for everyone and as we see, some people are happy to pay more for racing in half full grids.
I can understand that if taking the chequered flag first is what concerns you most, you will not want to merge with cars and/or people who could potentially deny you the opportunity.
For those of us who are happy to race in classes and accept that a class win is an overall win for us, then the way is open to reduce our entry fees.

I'll have a dig around for that thread John, as i would like to read, and yes, if done allready then no need to go there again.

Its just that profit thing, a small drop in profit now may make gains later, its a gamble, but what if it continues? and less and less racers turn up, race fees get higher, less and less racers turn up .. watching one rich guy race round an empty circuit isnt going to get the most dedicated fan excited.

I'm not intending it to sound like the circuit owners are money grabbers, its a business like any other, or it would have a charity number, its just that lots of businesses have cut prices to get bigger profits


(John is this the thread ? )

http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=91165&highlight=spectators

I've said this on various threads about spectators. 45 years ago apart from going to church there was **** all to do on a Sunday. What with 7 days a week opening of just about everything, it diluted the people. I can remember when you had to get to Brands early to claim your place to get a decent view at any clubbie car or bike meeting. I'm afraid those days are never going to come back !

That was pretty much the conclusion of that thread Gordon.

Still searching for it Gary.

Well as I understand it one major club is not increasing fees for next year and have addition discounts for 2nd and even more for 3rd races so I guess that is something.

I would actually like to take a bit of a straw poll and ask guys like those in the Classics that don't want to race with the later cars which in itself is a bit daft as a full house 64 Mustang will be bloody quick anyhow so I dont see the problem, if a reduction was on the table for getting more cars out there or worse cancelling sub 20 car grids, what would they prefer to do. My other example for the Cadwell round actually only fielded 16 cars not 20 so I think that was a bit silly as well especially several of us with later cars would have liked a run out on the circuit but there you go.

Also the petrol looks like its price is dropping so another plus as I think this more than Freddy and Maggie has caused this because if people cannot afford fuel or have to spend more on it does not paying their mortgage come soon after that and of course food prices (also effected by fuel prices) which are also plummeting according to BBC News this morning.

On that subject of fuel prices and off topic have you noticed all those ads for fixed prices till 2012 by tying in to British Gas? Now they stuck the price up explaining it was traditionally tied in with the price of petrol for some unknown reason, something to do with when factories bought heating oil or something,. Well now they are quite rightly being pressurised by government to drop the prices back down to previous prices so one asks where will that leave those that have tied into the higher rate? You could'nt have made it up could you? I wonder where Sid is now, retired on the Costa Brava no doubt!

As far as spectating goes, my eldest daughter bought a couple of friends up to Silverstone the other week with the kids and they just froze, they only stayed for about an hour and were off. The spectating is crap at most circuits and I think we have to just be realistic, we think we are marvolous and bloody exciting, the truth is in fact to most people especially the ladies we are just boring going around in circles especially when they see about one tenth of the race. Actually I went and watched one of the races on the TV in the cafe and I thought that was the best place to watch from so maybe more CC TV's around the track and some large screens may make it all a bit more interesting.

Gary
Try searching for "Falling or thriving grids" and "Getting Punters through the gates"
There was another one but I can't find it. Maybe something in these two will point you to it.

As far as spectators go, I can understand why there aren't many. Unless I am behind the wheel or helping in the paddock I find watching racing boring as hell. The only cars I enjoy watching on track are the historics and only then if there is some close racing.

cheers John.. bed time reading ;)

I was at Mallory spectating the other day and had just about the best day's entertainment ever without being behind the wheel. Short laps, close racing, result in doubt until the chequer, and you're really close to the action, what more could you ask for? Having been brought up on Combe/Silverstone/Thruxton bore-a-thons watched from miles away behind catch fencing, where the fastest car normally wins, it quite reminded me why I love motor racing. Breathtaking.

My formula?
Cheaper racing comes from attracting more spectators: Combined (packed) grids, shorter races to keep cars closer together (5-lap double headers with reversed grid restarts anyone?). If we prefer long distance races, we need to pay more because the spectator doesn't want that (see thread on Great & British package).

I was at Mallory spectating the other day and had just about the best day's entertainment ever without being behind the wheel. Short laps, close racing, result in doubt until the chequer, and you're really close to the action, what more could you ask for? Having been brought up on Combe/Silverstone/Thruxton bore-a-thons watched from miles away behind catch fencing, where the fastest car normally wins, it quite reminded me why I love motor racing. Breathtaking.

My formula?
Cheaper racing comes from attracting more spectators: Combined (packed) grids, shorter races to keep cars closer together (5-lap double headers with reversed grid restarts anyone?). If we prefer long distance races, we need to pay more because the spectator doesn't want that (see thread on Great & British package).

You trying to re-invent Stock car racing? :laugh:

I was at Mallory spectating the other day and had just about the best day's entertainment ever without being behind the wheel. Short laps, close racing, result in doubt until the chequer, and you're really close to the action, what more could you ask for? Having been brought up on Combe/Silverstone/Thruxton bore-a-thons watched from miles away behind catch fencing, where the fastest car normally wins, it quite reminded me why I love motor racing. Breathtaking.

My formula?
Cheaper racing comes from attracting more spectators: Combined (packed) grids, shorter races to keep cars closer together (5-lap double headers with reversed grid restarts anyone?). If we prefer long distance races, we need to pay more because the spectator doesn't want that (see thread on Great & British package).

Sound easy but the fact is that the only "short"(ish) circuits that could qualify for your "formula" are Mallory, Brands Indy, Lydden, Silverstone Stowe and some of the Anglesey lay outs, Mallory and Silverstone Stowe are in easy reach but I don't want to travel for 3 hours to any of the rest for 2 x 5 lap races. As I driver I will travel to those places for 30 mins of practice and a 40 min race.

Plus running a greater number of shorter races means allowing for more chunks of clean up time in the timetable so (someone can do the maths I'm sure!) potentially fewer races.

IMO the lynch-pin is bigger grids; and that means the MSA doing what they are enfranchised to do, actually MANAGING the sport (emphasis on the sport IE the clubbie end, not the business IE the pro end, showing some leadership with less championships, less series, co-ordinate across circuits and promoters to avoid clashing dates, maybe even less authorised clubs or at least no new ones. Look at the 15-year stats for UK race licence holders, it doesn't vary hugely. SO we now have same number of drivers and cars diluted across too many opportunities to race. Less meetings = fuller grids, and solves the marshalling problem at a stroke too.
discuss.

Its interesting come to think of it how the least pleasing (for me at least) circuits to race on (Brands Indy, Mallory, Lydden) definitely are the best best viewing circuits as pointed out by Midgetman, I must say I have watched some damned good races at those tracks the rest can be a bit of a bore, thats why on big circuits like Thruxton which I love to race on they really should try to put some CCTV on at strategic corners and places on the circuit, surely this is possible, lets ask the Chinese how to do it!

Can't claim the formula to be mine uniquely. Some years ago Howard Strawford was quoted as saying that races were at least 50% too long, and he envisaged more, shorter races. If anyone could do it, Combe could.

We'd need to cut down on the beaureaucracy of motor sport. As one race finishes, there's always a big clean up with trucks, course cars etc. WHY???? Presumably the broken/crashed cars were in a safe place, otherwise their race would have been stopped.Therefore leave them there and only clean up every two or three races - as one set of cars goes into the pits, the others should be straight onto the grid and green light. Bit like indoor kart racing.

Want to stick the course car round anyway? Then have rolling starts using course car as pace car.

Drivers won't travel for 2 x 5 laps? Whats the difference between that and 1 x 10 laps? Except two starts (exciting!), and less chance of being lapped!

Don't want to do these crowd pleasing races? Then only go to the ones that offer what you want but are more expensive.

It'll only work at some circuits and not others? No problem, some do it one way, some others. It'll give a genuine choice and a breath of fresh air.

We need to think outside the box. Andy, I'm with you I prefer the longer 40 minute races but let's be honest, they're a good chance for spectators to catch up on their sleep. So we should expect to pay for the privilege because there'll be no gate money. If we're to enter crowd-pleasing races, I'd expect a huge redcution in entry fees to compensate.

Does sound like oval racing doesn't it? And the size of the crowd at your average oval race compared to circuit race? (Genuine question, I don't know...)

Oval racing does generally get better crowd sizes compared to club circuit racing. this is proved by the "festival" meeting at Lydden. Incidently we get through about 38 races on that day, including 8 "long" circuit races and 6 races for trucks.

Midgetman, leaving a car out from one race to the next would be a no no for several reasons. Firstly an insurance/permit issue.
Secondly I am sure even if reason one didn't apply most drivers would not be happy if there care was just left where it stopped, to be possibly hit by another car (A Ford mustang hitting a FF1600 would be expensive, the other way round could be fatal)
Course cars are used to pick up observers reports etc.

Drivers won't travel for 2 x 5 laps? Whats the difference between that and 1 x 10 laps?
2 times clear up. Dead time for the racers but a cost that has to be paid.

This isn't really new though, is it? Racing Ahead, back in the mid to late 1990s did just that, and I thought it worked out reasonably well. More shorter races with less clear up time. The format got phased out, although elements remain - most clubs actually are quite good at keeping the programme moving these days, unless there is a big clear up.

I still think most races are too long these days- 20 minutes is excessive; between 10 and 15 is about right. But I can see the conflicts between cutting race distances and giving competitor value for money.

So just cut the distances and the price pro-rata. As i said 15 minutes is enough for an old git.

Then the organisers would then need more cars/series/championships on the day to make up the shortfall.

Ian, whilst I'd agree with your perception as a spectator, it makes less sense when you are paying to race.
Given that most people believe that increasing the number of spectators is unlikely, it surely makes more sense to give the racers best value?

SWC, you just backed up what i had guestimated in my first post ... ;)



My large figure of over £300,000 was at the Truck Grand prix which had a gate of 22,000 people.

And by your own admission your say the entry fees would be ...



which when the entry fees are corrected to £45,000 gives in the area of £12,500 to print some programmes and results...

Now if we say its a small gate of 5000 people at £15 a ticket, thats another £75,000 ... and all i'm saying is drop the entry fees by 50 quid , which on a 200 car entry is 10k from 75k .. and thats 10k if the reduction didnt entice more cars.

another 50 entries at £200 would see that 10k re-couped.

Remember, these figures are the small ones, low entry fees, and low gate price. What was the BTTC or the DTM price, £35 a head, and at the final there was 18,000 people ..thats £630,000

Stone me, surely they can drop £50 of an entry

The flaw in the argument is that the circuit takes the gate and pockets it, and the club has to make do with the revenue from the entries.

This is why I keep saying that the circuit should organise the whole thing from start to finish, and make the whole event a profitable experience, to the point where the spectators cover the entry fees of the competitors. Then we shall have full/oversubscribed grids.

There is a similar argument about trackdays/racedays costs in the Donington thread here.

The last trackday I attended had 200 cars booked in, and was on the GP circuit at Silverstone. Each car paid £200. That was clearly a money spinner. Though it seems that most are not so fruitful.

What's the circuit rental for mid-week compared to weekend?

>>>>>>>>Midgetman, leaving a car out from one race to the next would be a no no for several reasons.

Why? If the car's in a place of safety - eg behind a barrier - it could stay there all day. I wasn't suggesting leaving it where it could be hit! Stick it in the spectator areas and let the team come and collect it.....Seen similar things done on the continent. With a bit of lateral thinking circuits could even build dead car parks in safety.

Ian I was going to mention Racing Ahead but couldn't for the life of me think of its name----thanks!

Hey, at least we're thinking and not just moaning! It's gonna make ---- all difference what we think anyway.... but things aren't going to change unless someone is prepared to challenge the orthodoxy.

yeah would'nt you love that, picture the scene, you are at a Best of British and one of the earlier races and you spin out or breakdown and your car is left there. Only problem is there is two or three Radical Mini enduros on so you may have to wait hours before you recover your car when in reality all you want to do is load up and get home.

Then the organisers would then need more cars/series/championships on the day to make up the shortfall.
But its the old break the circle argument again isnt it? Because if they could put on more races with a subsequent cut in entries you may well get more cars out. Even you must see John that what you have is quite unique in as far as you have another group of guys who generally are a fair bit slower than the rest and who do not mind being lapped and beaten in exchange for a value for money race which is fair enough I am not knocking it but can you honestly name any other groups of racers that would be prepared to amalgamate like this as I cannot even with similiar spec cars in the same club!!

But its the old break the circle argument again isnt it? Because if they could put on more races with a subsequent cut in entries you may well get more cars out.
I'm not confident in your supposition, otherwise I'd buy a day and see if it worked.


Even you must see John that what you have is quite unique in as far as you have another group of guys who generally are a fair bit slower than the rest and who do not mind being lapped and beaten in exchange for a value for money race which is fair enough I am not knocking it
Unique? I think not.
We have various classes and some contain faster cars than others others. I can think of many other series where that would also be the case.
If you look close to home I am sure that you will find similar examples.

but can you honestly name any other groups of racers that would be prepared to amalgamate like this as I cannot even with similiar spec cars in the same club!!
Not yet.

John, I take your point about the Racing Ahead format being for spectators and not offering such VFM for competitors - I can see it both ways. But (and this is supposition) I suspect marshals might be put off by the longer races too in a lot of instances, and does an extra five minutes of driving around necessarily make for better value - would shorter, closer, more competitive races not offer more thrills per pound, which must surely be at least as important as minutes of track time per pound?

group of guys who generally are a fair bit slower than the rest and who do not mind being lapped and beaten in exchange for a value for money race

The pace differential front to back in TTRS isn't huge compared to many other series/championships. Believe me, I know what you're talking about and its not much fun if you at the back, but this isn't the case here. Also, many of the cars in the more powerful classes don't really make much headway into lapping the lower power ones. Sometimes its the other way round! :D

Another point worth mentioning is that there is less (if any) emphasis placed on the overall position. Ok, the spectators are less likely to be interested in the class battles, but this series is designed for the drivers. However, the battles in those lower classes are very entertaining... particularly when you're trying to pick your way through them having qualified lower than you should do. I really don't think those guys you're talking about feel particularly 'beaten' by anyone..

would shorter, closer, more competitive races not offer more thrills per pound, which must surely be at least as important as minutes of track time per pound?

The problem with regards to the 'more shorter races in a day' idea is that the organisers schedule would be much more stressed (and stressful for them to manage) and at risk of creating the kind of problems seen at Rockingham last year.
From a drivers value-for-money perspective, I've found I like a mix of some quick hectic and busy races, inter mingled with the odd longer race where I get a chance to break free and enjoy some quality time on my own, keeping it all together and having the chance to work on the lap time.

I suspect I'm not alone in liking some variation in race length across a given season, but I also suspect there's many who specifically like either short or long races. The point is, by having a mix you're more likely to please everyone at some stage.

Yes Ian, having done some marshaling I agree that some racing is exceedingly tedious.
There are plenty of posts on here from marshals decrying long races, so I'm sure that you are correct.

However, I've been in 30 minute races this season which have finished with less than half a second between the winners and 2nd place, with similar gaps existing through the field.

I have watched mini enduros that are tiresome from half way through the first lap, and short races that are no more competitive than longer ones, (but they do have the benefit of being over quickly) :)
So I'm not convinced that there's a one-size-fits-all answer.

There is the real problem of VFM, if you are paying.
Two ten minute races would cost us the same as a 30 minute race (due to the extra clean up, gridding and green flag time.) There really seems no way out of this extra cost.

Would I prefer to have shorter races if they guaranteed more competition?
Yes of course - but there is no guarantee and therefore I (call me selfish) want the best bang for my buck - and that simply means time on track.
I cannot countenance the surreptitious handing over of Mrs W's housekeeping to enable nothing to be happening on track other than watch course cars circulate.


What is more certain IMHO, is that the more cars there are on track, the better the likleyhood of something interesting to watch.

So we're back to filling grids which should provide more excitement for the drivers, entertainment for the marshals and hopefully something interesting enough to write about for you scribes.


BTW
....and who do not mind being lapped and beaten...
Is that another unique in TTRS? - We stopped the beatings:rotate:

Yes thats all well and good AustinSpace (and John) but I ask the same question again which is can you think of any other series/championships that an amalgamation like this would get the approval of the competitors because I can't and where as its working for you thats just one group of guys who sound like you may have maxed out the grid slots anyhow, what about an overall solution.

Look as I have said many times (fortunately) I don't give a toss about getting beaten or lapped but I do like to line up knowing that if I was good enough or chucked enough money at the car I could be up there with a bit of luck. To line up on a grid in a car that I know however good I and the car is because of the model/formula am that I am just going to get blown into weeds by others on the grid who are running to a totally different set of regulations I would not like (unless I was doing the blowing of course :-)).

This is not just me ask about and see what reaction you get. When the Modprods from were amalgamated for one race with some CTRCC race the drivers were not happy and up in arms, the Classics as I said previously were not happy to go out with PHTC's so where are you going to find a consensus amoungst drivers to do this. As I said your group are in a fortunate postion and long may it prosper for you but there is still generally only 30 odd places on the grid at the end of the day.

I was at Mallory spectating the other day and had just about the best day's entertainment ever without being behind the wheel. Short laps, close racing, result in doubt until the chequer, and you're really close to the action, what more could you ask for? Having been brought up on Combe/Silverstone/Thruxton bore-a-thons watched from miles away behind catch fencing, where the fastest car normally wins, it quite reminded me why I love motor racing. Breathtaking.


Bit surprised by this, I haven't been to many circuits where you are much closer than Castle Combe, I couldn't even consider how it could be mentioned in the same context as Silverstone. Whenever I take new people along they are shocked at how close you can get (especially those that have only ever been to WSR or an F1 GP), you also get the benefit of an easy walk around the entire circuit with viewing available for 99% of the journey.

The gap between races has been mentioned in this thread as well, apart from one event at Combe this season run by a different club (I can't remember which, specifically), the gap between races has always been immensely short compared to any other circuit I've been to this year. Some events appear to have an arbitrary 10 minute gap between races, Combe just get the next lot out on circuit as the last recovery truck is heading towards the Pit Lane.

Certainly as a model of how it can be done for the benefit of spectators, Combe seems to tick most of the boxes, yet even they have had some strangely low spectator numbers this season at certain events. The spectator numbers generally seem to be above average though, and compare favourably even to some well known major national packages.

but I ask the same question again which is can you think of any other series/championships that an amalgamation like this would get the approval of the competitors
And I'll answer again (see post #102)
Not yet.

Combe just get the next lot out on circuit as the last recovery truck is heading towards the Pit Lane.
Agreed, Combe do a great job of packing in the action.
So do 750MC, MSVR and others we experienced this year.
Why can't they all do it?

Difficult thread to come into with so much already said - some of which is realistic and some of which is ******..

I have limited experience of racing compared with some on here BUT i've spent nearly every day for the last 8 years at circuits or putting cars onto circuits - mainly track days but also setting up 2 new race series that have both started with full grids and although I'm no longer involved in one - other than some web help and sponsorship. both ran full grids on their first ever meets and are still doing so today 5 or so years on for one series and coming to the end of the 2nd year for the other series which i currently organise. I also run Europes largest t/day club and probably buy track time from more different circuits in Europe than any other organisation. It's a hobby that I don't get paid for so no reason to quote financial facts that aren't true.

Going back to the original question - The 'Credit Crunch' and the Future of Club Motor Sport.

* I think the first thing you have to ask is who's racing and why?

The VAST majority of people in club motorsport in the UK aren't racing for the glory of winning.. The VAST majority will never win a race. They are not going to make it into F1 or end up racing for a living. They are racing for the fun of it.. it's a hobby just like playing golf, fishing or sailing. If it's not enjoyable - and this includes impacting significantly on family life they will stop doing that hobby.

There's no fun in driving around a circuit on your own, even if you have a full grid.. Grids where drivers are going to be racing closely AND fairly with each other all the way through - be it at the front or at the back is what gives drivers enjoyment. Having a full grid where cars are spread out more or less from the start doesn't work even if the entry fee is low. Spending a few hundred £'s to get to a circuit 200 miles away to have a 15 minute race doesn't work. Putting the car back on the trailer knowing you've a big hole in the pocket and may struggle to get out next time also doesn't help.

Close racing all through the grid, Clean racing, Decent track time - not every series needs the same, A good calendar with some single days and at decent circuits, Decent facilities, Being involved in the meeting both socially and generally just knowing whats going on with scheduling etc will keep people racing. I'm sure belts will need to be tightened but if organisers and circuits can offer the above then they are doing their bit.

* Entry fee's

We've got 11 rounds this year and our average entry fee is between £250-£260. We always have a minimum or 20 mins qually and 2 x 20 minute races but have had the odd 30 or even 40 minute race chucked in. We visit major circuit - Brands Hatch Grand Prix (A1GP), Spa Francorchamps, Donington Park, Oulton Park, Snetterton, Croft, Silverstone - International and GP circuits and Cadwell.

I believe that keeping entry fee's to those levels, offering track time that suits our cars and most importantly drivers - the vast majority of whom have only started racing in the last 18 months means that they will keep turning up through a recession. They are club racers, some drive to circuits - we have one truck for over 60 regular drivers their overheads are getting to and from the circuit, entry fee's, consumables - fuel, tyres, parts etc and accommodation. For most the entry fee is about 30% of their weekend cost. Also for most if they take a heavy knock they will be out for a round or maybe two so it's important we try and keep control of that side. I don't believe we have one driver who is only racing to win.. yes some want to win and we need that but having a fun, sociable weekend is most important.

We buy our tracktime and set the entry fee based on number of cars we expect to compete. If we want to reduce an entry fee somewhere we have to find a sponsor for that round or subsidise by increasing the fee at a more popular or cheaper round. Personally I have no doubt what we are charged for track time is extremely fair - we pay our % of the day, we don't subsidise other series. We don't get any special deals, I'm sure the bigger clubs have much better buying power. We do take the financial risk - if you don't want risk and series want a club to take the risk for them then they should expect to pay more.

We are a non profit club and our committee and team of helpers are volunteers. This obviously helps but the vast majority of those who help are current or ex-drivers. We don't have hospitality but we do have a good social mix.

Unlike most club series we do have TV thats costs us a significant part of our budget BUT the drivers don't pay for this we work to bring in sponsors to cover this. For a small, new club series we are able to bring in about £50k of sponsorship - it's hard work for the volunteers but it's there if the right package can be put together. We don't have sponsors who require looking after as thats not something we have time to do - we make it clear what we're offering and stick to that so don't let them down. For our third year next year we're looking to increase that figure slightly and so far sponsors are signing up already - 4 more confirmed this weekend. If drivers start to get hit then we will use sponsorship money to top up the missing entries, although we don't currently see this being an issue based on driver surveys and feedback.

We do try and keep drivers informed and involved in the series - emails, forum, open q&a's at meetings - again at Silverstone yesterday they were able to give feedback on 2009 regs and calendar.

When launching the series we decided to approach MSVR as we believed they had fresh ideas and had real belief in making club racing substanable for the long term and not one year wonder series. Also that they really do want more people to go racing and at a club level - big international meets are nice but they believe the bread and butter is club racing. We get support whenever we need it - normally in terms of technical advice and calendars but they work with us knowing that if we get it right we'll buy track time and bring more people into motorsport generally. Many clubs offer this level of support not just MSVR but some haven't looked at what they do for many years and just think they have it right... I think drivers in series run by those clubs need to get involved in their series, give feedback and ensure everyone knows what drivers need. Not once have MSVR ever tried to get us to take more track time or tried, even in a small way to get us to do something the drivers don't want to do.

* Spectators

Anyone who is relying on getting more paying spectators through the gates in an attempt to subsidise race entry fees is kidding themselves. As someone else has said this isn't 30 or 40 years ago - there are MANY more social activities open to everyone now. Just on TV alone how much more motorsport is there many, many times more coverage available to joe public every day than there was years ago. Times have changed don't live in the past!!

We are lucky as a series to have a strong spectator following - 3000+ have turned up to support us at the odd round and we reguarily get a few hundred-1000 in but that's because we are a club, one mark series and we do the marketing ourselves as we know our own community. This just wouldn't be possible for most series.

If people want more spectators at cluby meets series are going to have to help push to their market - I've watched a lot of live racing over the years but if I tried to take the family along they just wouldn't be interested, there are too many other attractions. My 14 year old spent between 6am and 7pm yesterday at Silverstone - he was more interested in playing computer games than sitting and watching racing. Times have changed.

As for some of the figures quoted with regard to profit at large meetings where spectators do come in you really have no idea how these meetings work! Wake up, do some research and really understand what events cost to put on and where the money goes some of you are in cloud cookoo land.

If club drivers want cheaper entry fee's they need to be realistic and look at their series/clubs over heads and do as you would in any business and buy at the best possible price. Then ensure you are putting on the best package for your drivers to maximise the grid I'm sure that the vast majority of race series in the UK could benefit from more driver involvement. Just don't leave it too late with whats round the corner for next year and the year after.... then whinge and blame the circuits or specators...

* Track days

PLEASE can people stop posting ****** about track days and the income they bring in unless they have actually run a track day. Some of the figures posted are so far out it's past being laughable. Track days income and not be compared to race income it's a totally different ball game.

Finally, before I get off my soap box.. This are going to get tougher, I'm sure they already have for a lot of drivers and series but there's not point in looking at the past and saying this happened or that happened the World has moved on. By the time some of you wake up it will be too late. If you care about your series try and get involved in it, if clubs or organisers don't want to listen get drivers together sooner or later they will. I'm sure most organisers and circuits are worried about whats going to happen over the next 2 or 3 years and for some racing is probably just a small part of that worry but an important one.

Anyway just my slightly different view point from someone who's relatively new to the sport..

Good informative post if I may say, what championships are you involved with if I may ask. I agree with most of what you said bar one thing I don't believe we have one driver who is only racing to win..Because I know drivers I race with now and in the past winning is everything and if they cant they either sulk on the day or don't race and thats a fact.

Hi Al

I orriginally set up PBMW with a few other lotus owners and put orriginal deal together with SEMSEC etc guaranteeing the full grid to ensure we were taken seriously as a new series. Moved on at the end of year one with a few of the others.

Now run http://www.elisetrophy.com with the rest of our team.

I agree with most of what you said bar one thing Because I know drivers I race with now and in the past winning is everything and if they cant they either sulk on the day or don't race and thats a fact.

What you probably missed in my statement:- "I don't believe we have one driver who is only racing to win.. " was the word ONLY. I seriously don't believe we have one driver who is ONLY racing to win.. We pull drivers from our track day club and yes winning is important for some, a trophy is great for everyone, but it really is more than just winning.. The cameradery we have in our paddock i would hope is as good as you will find anywhere.. No one will damage a car for the sake of the win.. We have an ex-F1 driver on the grid in terms of Martin Donnelly and I'm sure he plus the guys who do tend to win will back me up and say it's more about the whole package - the guys are elated when they do win but so are those all the way through the grid..

I've never seen one driver sulk or give up because he hasn't won. Yes they may get upset if get a bit of damage or in heat of the moment loose 25th place because of a push but never sulk.

If it all became about the winning we wouldn't have a series.

PS. although we have huge grids - 60+ cars at points this year we are remaining a series for year 3 and have no intention of being a championship - probably backs up the winning statement even more..

Good informative post if I may say, what championships are you involved with if I may ask. I agree with most of what you said bar one thing Because I know drivers I race with now and in the past winning is everything and if they cant they either sulk on the day or don't race and thats a fact.

Calypsoelise is involved with Lotus On Track and having been involved in running some of their meetings this year I think that they are doing a pretty good job of running their club. Their drivers are a friendly bunch and there is very much a "we're all here having fun" atmosphere to them.

They are fairly unique, as Calypsoelise says in that the majority of their drivers are new to motorsport (that's a huge achievement on its own!) and are still finding their way, it would be interesting to see whether the model could be transferred to another series?

. . .
* Spectators

Anyone who is relying on getting more paying spectators through the gates in an attempt to subsidise race entry fees is kidding themselves. As someone else has said this isn't 30 or 40 years ago - there are MANY more social activities open to everyone now. Just on TV alone how much more motorsport is there many, many times more coverage available to joe public every day than there was years ago. Times have changed don't live in the past!!

We are lucky as a series to have a strong spectator following - 3000+ have turned up to support us at the odd round and we reguarily get a few hundred-1000 in but that's because we are a club, one mark series and we do the marketing ourselves as we know our own community. This just wouldn't be possible for most series.

If people want more spectators at cluby meets series are going to have to help push to their market - I've watched a lot of live racing over the years but if I tried to take the family along they just wouldn't be interested, there are too many other attractions. My 14 year old spent between 6am and 7pm yesterday at Silverstone - he was more interested in playing computer games than sitting and watching racing. Times have changed.

As for some of the figures quoted with regard to profit at large meetings where spectators do come in you really have no idea how these meetings work! Wake up, do some research and really understand what events cost to put on and where the money goes some of you are in cloud cookoo land.

. . . How refreshing to see this set out in plain language. I'm even more doubtful as to the realities of getting significantly more spectators in to watch club level motorsport. Frankly, what would some club meetings offer them? Too many club races are trackdays with timing (and I've seen soem trackdays which were more interesting!) Before anyone gets too upset, no of course that does not apply to all club level sport, but it does to some.

Club level motorsport is run for competitors, full stop. (And since they are paying for it - that's fine.)

Jim

Because I know drivers I race with now and in the past winning is everything and if they cant they either sulk on the day or don't race and thats a fact.
Therein perhaps lies the answer to the question you keep asking about how the class F guys can countenance racing within TTRS.

If your suppostion is correct about winning being the only thing, the logical consequence is series with one competitor.

Like Paul's series, we are in the position of having drivers that are happy to race for enjoyment. If they win their class they get the same award as the overall race winner. If not, they seem happy enough to try again.

Calypsoelise has hit the nail on the head and is obviously speaking with authority. Club level motor sport is like asking vast numbers of spectators to pay to watch the average club golfer or sunday league football team. Time to get real, vast crowds to watch club racing ain't going to happen.

Calypsoelise has hit the nail on the head and is obviously speaking with authority. Club level motor sport is like asking vast numbers of spectators to pay to watch the average club golfer or sunday league football team. Time to get real, vast crowds to watch club racing ain't going to happen.

I honestly believe it is possible though, maybe not consistently, but there are ways.

Going back to Combe, they have had substantial crowds in recent years, and continue to attract spectators despite not having any 'major' series coming to the circuit any more. One of the biggest draws seems to be the immensely popular circuit based Championships, something that I assume will become more relevant if times get more difficult than they are at the moment. I've no idea about actual attendance figures, but they would appear to be higher than almost all equivalent events I've visited elsewhere.

Its location is often mentioned in its favour, but Thruxton is only down the road and has most of the major series visiting during the course of a season, yet there were probably more people at some of the Quali days of 2 day meets at Combe than there were at the Quali Days for BTCC or F3/GTs at Thruxton.

Now run http://www.elisetrophy.com with the rest of our team.


Hi Paul, nice to see you over here mate.

For those that do not know him, 'calypsoelise' Paul Golding is a super bloke and well respected, sorry to embarrass you Paul as I know you will be!
Paul has done a great deal for the 'Elise Garden Party' fundraiser event each year, raising money for the Little Havens Childrens Hospice. This year we raised nearly £50K, from a room with only 175 diners and an on-line auction on the SELOC site.

Michael Hipperson the organiser asked me to do something which we gave to Paul, so I did a small painting of Martin Donnelly winning at Donington in Paul's Elise. Here L-R, Michael holds the picture up, Martin Donnelly signed it for Paul, 'calyposoelise' and yours truly on the right. A great night had by all and a lot of money raised.
http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/7416/mhmdpgakhe1.jpg

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/3978/lotusgoldingxz5.jpg

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/940/paulmarthk5.jpg

Anyway, back to topic...

Excellent post Andrew.
Agree Paul is a great chap and an inspiration to many of us.

Great painting too.

Andrew - what are you like! just a hello from someone like yourself is a highlight. your picture was the best gift i've ever received, will be here longer than the car with the time and effort you put in. It should also be said you've put much more into the EGP charity events than I have..

*blush*

Hi John - should catch up sometime..

Look forward to it. :)

re post 110 by calypsoelise,
Can I thank him for a real down to earth assessment of the predicament we all seem to be heading towards.I have followed this thread,and agree with some of the feelings expressed, but it is time to accept that the paying spectator is no longer the provider/supporter we once were.I'd love to think that we could go back to the days when thousands of people fought to leave a clubbie meeting at my beloved Snetterton,but it will not happen.Our money may help defray the costs of the meetings,but it will not guarantee their future.
Personally,I believe that the future can be improved by encouraging the young,indeed my own grandsons have been going to both bike and car meeting since they were a few months old!
Probably because I took my sons from about 4 or 5 years of age,they have developed huge enthusiasm for any motorsport.
I hope we can (as has happened before) weather this storm,and that it may be shortlived. Regards to all

In most areas of life at the moment prices for goods are being slashed in order to get people through the door, goods off shelves & cash in the till. I wonder if circuits will take a similar view of their hire fees? Probably not, but I definately know that dates at some circuits are already being declined because they are just unaffordable, and the clubs can't put themselves at risk of going out of business by running meetings that they can't be confident of filling.

Andy, have a look at the Lydden thread. Sadly your correct in that some circuits are putting their prices up by quite a large margin.

Rod as all of us in business know if we cannot sell our products we either adjust our prices or go out of business. If tracks owners think they are beyond this basic law of business well all I can say is some of them are in for a very rude awakening. We all have to adjust in this current climate whether we like it or not.

Well said Al, but I am afraid they are not listening. There is a theory that we will pay anything to carry on racing, but I wonder how many people actually will.

There is a theory that we will pay anything to carry on racing, but I wonder how many people actually will.
I for one won't/can't:D

I am afraid that goes for me too, its more important my business survives and I will only race if the jobs are coming in and currently they have slowed right down. I think circuit owners may well be in for a bit of a wake up call next year and i hope they act accordingly and responsibly so both they and us can continue doing what we love. We are all going to have to make cuts. I mean even if you have savings and or property everyday the true value is dropping, its begining to get very worrying.

I think that even people in work & with a reasonable disposable income will start to question their priorities - many people may think that its better to build up a pot of cash than spend it on racing, just in case something does go wrong. Most of us, for eg, will have personal pension plans that are now worth 20-25% less than they were a few months ago; it might therefore be seen as sensible to try to put some more money aside into another means of saving, even if it is only under the bed, rather than spend it on frivolous activities like racing. My better half thinks so anyway, & above all I have to justify my racing to her!!! I for one, will probably not bother racing if it involves long hauls and overnight stays (except for Anglesey).

I really hope that the club hierarchies and the circuit owners are reading this thread!

I suppose that the upside, if there is one, is that "used car prices" may come down & it might be possible to buy that (insert desired car) that you always promised yourself!!!

Thats no upside if you want to sell said desirable car though Andy. As for building up a pot of cash, why bother with the rate the pound is decending, may as well spend it on something tangable in which case desirable car prices like gold may well go up not down.

Having read most of this thread, I am pleased to see that many people are taking this problem seriously! Clearly some people will have better ideas than others on improving the situation but the important thing is that we are considering it.

At the end of the day it doesent matter if Joe Bloggs has bags of cash, if many of the other drivers in his series are struggling with justifying the outlay.

Clearly series like TTRS and the Lotus one mentioned are the way to go for drivers that don't consider a £300 entry fee as petty cash!

I do think however that everyone involved in club racing needs to come up with similar initiatives. The track owners for instance. Now I do not profess to know a great deal about their business, but the likes of Donnington have been putting on music events for many years. Snetterton and Donnington have attracted a number of companies with related business strategies to set up on their property. The latest being the resurected Norton Motorcycles.
There must be numerous events that could take place on non race/track days to help make the site more viable.

Although I have to agree that it would be a struggle to get more paying spectators in to a club racing weekend merely by spreading the word. What needs to be done (as has already been suggested and largely ignored) is to provide other interests on site for the members of family and friends that don't want to stand in the rain all day watching cars going round and round.

With a bit of vision, something could be provided to amuse most of the family and make a few extra bob for the track owner. There could be a games room with pool, fruit machines, video games, and the internet etc. Most of our better halves love a wander around a market. Snetterton is always popular with Mrs XJS18!

One of the biggest crowds I can remember was a Ferrari weekend at Brands that was followed in the evening by a concert.

Getting ordinary car clubs to hold their events at the circuit to combine with races featuring their marque is another good way of bringing in a few bob and generating interest in others taking up racing.

My biggest concern is the many clubs and circuits that are just going to sit back and hope that everythings going to be OK. It won't!

This pricing thing was raised several times at the CTRCC AGM as you can imagine and not just by me :-). The TTRS way of doing it was obviously discussed and something that came out and I am afraid I had to see the point was that where as a single formula series like TTRS provided you have willing volunteers prepared to give up their time for free to do all the entries etc. then yes savings can be made, also you need a group of drivers prepared to commit and not just verbally but also putting up their cash. Now this would not be at all easy in a club like CTCRC with no less than 5 series/championships on the boil and no paid staff. And also because of that its virtually impossible to fill 5 grids as many like the Classic and Historics like we discussed before simply do not want to amalgamate. Therefore the only option in a scenario like this is to get a club like BARC to host the meetings for us where their paid professional staff can do all the slog without relying on the good will of volunteers who may one day say I have had enough! I don't think we are alone in this either. Also TTRS only need to find the one or two slots, imagine trying to find 5 each time, probably not possible.

One thing that did come out at the AGM is our entries will be frozen at 08 levels and 2nd races will still be £100 and a 3rd if you are really greedy just £75 so not all bad eh?

And also because of that its virtually impossible to fill 5 grids as many like the Classic and Historics like we discussed before simply do not want to amalgamate.

That's another problem, there's still too many different formula wanting their own separate grids. We all want the clubs and track owners to capitulate on prices but drivers are unwilling to wake up to facts and share grids. I believe the TTRS have got round this by giving winners garlands to each class and treating them as a race win not a class win. Clubs like the CSCC are being generous if they give a cap to the overall winner and won't even provide more when they amalgamate races which I know has put more than one person off racing with them.

So it's not only the track owners that are intransigent, the racers and clubs need to join the real world.

Clubs like the CSCC are being generous if they give a cap to the overall winner and won't even provide more when they amalgamate races which I know has put more than one person off racing with them.


Don't think thats true at all, I had a very reasonable quality cut glass whiskey tumbler for my one and only class win this year and overall class "best performers" (its a series not a championship) received very nice decanters at the end of year "do". In my experience its the BRSCC that only give out baseball caps...and they have far higher entry fees than the CSCC, too.

I believe the TTRS have got round this by giving winners garlands to each class and treating them as a race win not a class win
You are correct in your beliefs Tim :)
TTRS ethos is a class win is effectively a race win, so garlands and good trophies are the same for each class winner as the overall winner.

I understand where everyone is coming from re the circuit owners, but I imagine that their operating costs are subject to the same increases as the rest of us. They are businesses despite some calling themselves clubs.

That said, a 35% increase is outrageous.

....I understand where everyone is coming from re the circuit owners, but I imagine that their operating costs are subject to the same increases as the rest of us. They are businesses despite some calling themselves clubs.
That said, a 35% increase is outrageous.

RPI / inflation is IIRC currently close to zero and is predicted to be negative next year; ergo ANY increase is outrageous and is just shooting themselves in the foot.

Except that they necessarily calculate their costs on last year's expenditure. Ergo we get the hit for increased overheads from last year. Also don't forget inflation is a year on year figure, so even if it is lower than