Ten-Tenths Irish Stock Hatch Championship WEIGHTS

I may as well get this topic up and running as something needs to be sorted ASAP in my opinion..

As i'm sure most of the drivers are aware the problem surfaced today over the weights in all the stockhatches. It was decided that certain cars had weights incorrectly fitted and scrutiny told these drivers to take it out as they thought it was dangerous so we now have the situation of some drivers running with the correct weight and a lot of drivers running under weight.

Surely as the weights were in place in the regs before the championship started then they should remain and if a driver does not make the effort to fit the weights properly well then they shouldnt be on track..

the stance which was taken today by the organisers to just say to hell with the regs is baffling to me, I was hoping to get the opinion of any stockhatch drivers who are on TenTenths..

well i for one totally agree with u there if some people cant be bothered too put weights in properly then they shouldnt be out i spent time and good money gettin mine done right so i cant see why others cant do the same the championship started with them so i think it should finish like that i ran all my weight today and think i showed heaver cars can still do it anyway i think all stock hatch drivers agreed this morning if ur not on the weight limit u dont score points end off so hopfully everybody will have it done right for next day cause its the last thing we need on race day it wat was going on today well i for one certainly dont

Also i would be interested to hear your opinion on the weights tom! and anyone elses please for that matter, the class will become a farce if this isnt sorted.

I may as well get this topic up and running as something needs to be sorted ASAP in my opinion..

It was decided that certain cars had weights incorrectly fitted and scrutiny told these drivers to take it out as they thought it was dangerous so we now have the situation of some drivers running with the correct weight and a lot of drivers running under weight.Is there a published standard for how weights should be fitted or is it at the discretion of the drivers? If so then what are the recommendations for scrutiny or is it up to the scrutineers as to what constitutes "correct"?

Surely as the weights were in place in the regs before the championship started then they should remain and if a driver does not make the effort to fit the weights properly well then they shouldnt be on track.. If the regs say a car has to be a certain weight and it isn't then there should be a time penalty added to all the drivers runs until he gets a legal car. Or he should be allowed to compete but excluded from scoring points. If a car fails for a first time it should be recorded in the log book, and if it happens a second time then tell the driver to put it back on the trailer.

Is there a published standard for how weights should be fitted or is it at the discretion of the drivers? If so then what are the recommendations for scrutiny or is it up to the scrutineers as to what constitutes "correct"?

I dont think there is Grant, but if someone doesnt fit it safely well then they should fail scrutiny and not be allowed race.. the regs where out b4 the Championship started so i dont see what the problem is.

If the regs say a car has to be a certain weight and it isn't then there should be a time penalty added to all the drivers runs until he gets a legal car. Or he should be allowed to compete but excluded from scoring points. If a car fails for a first time it should be recorded in the log book, and if it happens a second time then tell the driver to put it back on the trailer.

I defo think you have a point here too but god knows whats going to happen, i had someone finish ahead of me yesterday and i know for a fact he was well underweight whereas i left all the weight in my car but i bet when the points come out well then that person will have scored points.. Hardly fair imho.

I dont think there is Grant, but if someone doesnt fit it safely well then they should fail scrutiny and not be allowed race.. the regs where out b4 the Championship started so i dont see what the problem is.The problem is that without specific standards or guidelines then what one person considers "safe" can be "unsafe" to someone else.

i had someone finish ahead of me yesterday and i know for a fact he was well underweight Ok, we'll all have a whip-round and force feed that person a load of pies and cakes! :rofl:

The problem is that without specific standards or guidelines then what one person considers "safe" can be "unsafe" to someone else.

Ok, we'll all have a whip-round and force feed that person a load of pies and cakes! :rofl:

Your Right about the safety but where does that leave us.. if all cars dont have to be the same weight then that opens up the championship to all sorts of problems. Somebody building a new Stockhatch now would put a lot more work into weight saving than they would have previously..

And we'd need to send that chap to america or somethin for those pies and cakes because it needs to be a 40 or 50 kg pie :rofl:

And we'd need to send that chap to america or somethin for those pies and cakes because it needs to be a 40 or 50 kg pie :rofl:hmmm, nah, if I was going to collect money for that amount of pie and cake I'd keep it for myself! :rofl:

Your Right about the safety but where does that leave us.. if all cars dont have to be the same weight then that opens up the championship to all sorts of problems. Somebody building a new Stockhatch now would put a lot more work into weight saving than they would have previously.Well it's obviously not up to me, but if I was the committee what I would consider:

Issue a clarification on placement and fitting of weights.
Any cars that aren't compliant on 16th November are noted and only score half points.
Any cars that aren't compliant on or after 8th February are excluded.That way anyone who isn't compliant now gets 3 MONTHS to get their act together.

Well it's obviously not up to me, but if I was the committee what I would consider:

Issue a clarification on placement and fitting of weights.
Any cars that aren't compliant on 16th November are noted and only score half points.
Any cars that aren't compliant on or after 8th February are excluded.That way anyone who isn't compliant now gets 3 MONTHS to get their act together.

No point in telling guys where to put the weight, no one will be happy, it's common sense to put it somewhere safe and have it well secured.
If cars don't meet the weight limit then they shouldn't be let race in the class....exclude them from the class on the day but let them race with the modifieds if they want, but no stockhatch points. It's unfair to the guys who have cars that are abiding by rules if the under weight cars are beating them. They've had a few months already to get things right, why give them another 3??

No point in telling guys where to put the weight, no one will be happy, it's common sense to put it somewhere safe and have it well secured.
If cars don't meet the weight limit then they shouldn't be let race in the class....exclude them from the class on the day but let them race with the modifieds if they want, but no stockhatch points. It's unfair to the guys who have cars that are abiding by rules if the under weight cars are beating them. They've had a few months already to get things right, why give them another 3??

This is my opinion really, i dont see why people who do not make the effort to comply with the rules should be let race :?

Anyone know how we get any info from the officials.. i can see myself arriving out to mondello on the 16th and being told that nothing has been sorted :mad:

make the officials enforce the rules that are there. underweight = no racing, the scrutiny in the morning is a safety scrutiny, if the weight is not secure and safe then the guilty partys have 3 options
1. get it sorted before scrutiny ends
2. take it out and race with the modifieds
3. go home

how come in the circuit racing classes the weight issues and placing of ballast don't cause the headaches it seems to be causing in rallycross??

Is there a class rep/co-ordinator for stockhatch???

that would be me pete,i explanned to the lads on sunday what was going on we as a group agreed that car`s under weight would not score points i told tom of our decision he said fine but i was then told by scrutiny that because they made the decision to take the ballest out of the car`s on safety grounds points could not be taken from those drivers,every body has had enough time to ready their cars for the championship,a car that is presented at scrutiny unsafe should be made safe or put back on the trailer,end of,i tried to contact motorsport ireland today but nobody was available to take the call,i will have to email them with complaints,its not just the weight issue some cars come from different championships with different regs to ours but are still out with us week in week out,a 16v 106 took 3rd place in an 8v class and went home with a trophy,we are told there are not enough trophies to go around and then to give it to somebody who shouldent even be there,ian is right is anything going to be done before the next round,do they care about the biggest class in rallycross,who knows,maybe if we all hold back our entries untill something is sorted they might sit up and do something
on another note which plays into the hands of eveybody who thinks s/h is banger racing,how come 90% of all other classes in rx can get around the first corner without contact where 90% of s/h make contact,if our driving standard was to improve it would give them less amo to fire back at us,

the answer is simple , if the ballast was removed on the scrutineers instruction then the car cant run as a stock hatch , adding time or reduced points is an IRISH answer , but not the right answer .

.

The addition of extra ballast has never been a problem in the past. If you didn’t weigh in correctly you were thrown out, no exceptions to the rule.

I think the only reason it was an issue on Sunday was due to the high number of new drivers. People will have been frantically preparing cars up until late on Saturday night. Last on the list will have been ballast. If drivers couldn’t secure it properly, then no points should be awarded. New drivers will not have been too fussed about championship points if it was their first or second event.

Everybody has the ability to bolt in a seat or fire extinguisher, especially experienced drivers. If you can’t bolt in lead safely then you don’t score points, it’s as simple as that.
The following pointers could be added to the current reg’s:

“It is the responsibility of the competitor to provide and fit their own ballast and to mount it to the satisfaction of the scrutineers. Care should be taken in the mounting, by use of suitable ‘spreader plates’ and appropriate size and quality of bolts”.

As a side note, this year reg’s stipulate that weights may be reviewed after the second round of the championship. I think the Irish and British championships both need to sit down together and have a re-think about the extra ballast for next year. I believe the minimum weight should be lowered to the level it was 2 years ago (Circa 835kgs). The current minimum weight is too high at 885kgs. At present, ridiculous amounts of lead are being bolted into cars. The bigger the lump of lead, the bigger the potential accident if it was to break free during an accident. Perhaps the minimum weight could be reduced by 5% across the board. This could be implemented immediately in Ireland and the UK could follow suit for next year’s British championship.

As Tom says stock hatch is a victim of its own success. Massive grids bring additional problems. These issues need to be managed and the class nurtured. It should never be under estimated how important stock hatch is for Rallycross.

Everyone here seems to agree that if a car is presented unsafe to scrutiny it should not be allowed to run. Each competitor is responsible to ensure that their car complies with the regs, including the minimum weight reg. It states in the 08/09 regs "contravention of the regulations will result in the loss of two maximum scores in the Rallycross Championship". Surely this can be enforced for entrants in the championship.

I agree that new drivers probably didnt know what their car weighed but will definately be aware of it in future and sunday's discussion after the driver's briefing should encourage them to make sure they comply.

Were all the s/h cars weighed on sunday? I ask because if so, each competitor will now know whether they comply or not and have two weeks to rectify.
It might be too late to enforce the above rule for last sunday's round but it's not too late to enforce it for the next round.

Could every car be weighed at scrutiny at the next event?

We could always name and shame the drivers not in the championship that dont make the weight!!!!

All cars were weighed in scrutiny on sunday so everyone knows wether there car was the correct weight or how much ballast they require so to me they have no excuse not to be the correct weight on the 16th.

on another note which plays into the hands of eveybody who thinks s/h is banger racing,how come 90% of all other classes in rx can get around the first corner without contact where 90% of s/h make contact,if our driving standard was to improve it would give them less amo to fire back at us,

Driving standards do defo need to be improved but i think this goes back to my earlier point on the C Final.. A lot of drivers dont seem to realise that their heats are about times and they get caught up in racing, instead of letting a faster car through and tryin to follow it they spend the whole heat blocking and at times ramming which is only destroying their own time but if we dont have more finals well then their times are irrelevant to them, they just go hame and say "i finished 2nd, 4th & 3rd in my 3 races" instead of " i won the D final and got up to 3rd in the C" for example or whatever final Someone may qualify for. I know pride can make it difficult for someone to allow themselves to be overtaken but its really in their own interest.

All cars were weighed in scrutiny on sunday so everyone knows wether there car was the correct weight or how much ballast they require so to me they have no excuse not to be the correct weight on the 16th.

If thats the case then there should be no issue on the 16th, drivers under the weight or cars deemed unsafe by the scrutineer after ballast is added must accept the punishment handed to them.

We do need a firm directive from M.I. on this though, i know murf is trying to get some direction from them, any luck with that?

i sent an email to them last night and had a reply today saying it was being passed on to the rx commity,hopfully we can have some decision before the 16th,i myself wont be competing as i drove the nacks out of my saxo(as everybody saw),but i will be there as stockhatch rep and observer,so keep it clean,if i recieve any info from mi i will let you all know

My opinion would be to inform the scrutineers and organising club for the next event that if cars are either unsafe or underweight then they are to be excluded from the class until they conform with the regulations.
If there is time during the lunch break organise with Mondello for the use of one of the suites over the garages to hold a meeting of all the stockhatch drivers to let them know that there will be no excuses from there on regarding weights and the securing of ballast in the cars, also some sort of committee should be set up in order to work with the scrutineers and organisers to write up the regs for future years and help control the class in the championship. The committee can also try to regulate the driving standards and enforce a deduction of points for those who are constantly reported or seen to be driving carlessly.


As I said it's just my opinion as an outsider looking at the way things go on in the class, I know there are a few other problems regarding specs of cars and other things to be sorted out but by taking it one step at a time the class could be turned around and sorted out.

Get onto driver Liason, they are there to work for you.

i will be there as stockhatch rep and observerIf you see me around then introduce yourself, I'd like to see who's the rep for "our" class ;) ;)

im the good looken one with a pony tail,i just had a reply from ana st.claire to say the matter is being looked at and will be sorted,cant ask for more than that

im the good looken one with a pony tailErm, no, that's me!!!!

silly me i forgot ,a baby elefant has more hair than me,by the way what did you do with my trim a red mud flap off my saxo,you have it in your hand in the pic

by the way what did you do with my trim a red mud flap off my saxo,you have it in your hand in the picIt joined all the other larger bits, in a pile on the grass on the inside of the rough. In future, I'll collect all larger stockhatch bits and sell 'em back, 1 part returned = 1 pint.

I hope that this helps you:21. Weight/Ballast
• If subject to a minimum weight, that must be the weight of the vehicle in the condition in which it crosses the finishing line (excluding driver and passenger), or at any time during the competition and/or practice (except for certain classes or formulae which include the driver in the total weight).
• Any ballast required must be attached to the shell/chassis via at least 4 mounting points using bolts with a minimum diameter of 8mm each with steel counter plates of at least 400sq.mm surface area and 3mm thickness.
• Provision must be made for the fixation of seals by scrutineers if deemed necessary.
• Where ballast is fitted to touring, sports, sports racing or GT cars it shall be fitted in the passenger’s location.
• Single seat racing cars are exempt from the above mounting requirements.Although it is easier with pies and beer.

Magnet

I ran that kind of sale scheme at lydden didnt do very well, had more luck in swapping bottles of water for bottles of beer

i sent an email to them last night and had a reply today saying it was being passed on to the rx commity,hopfully we can have some decision before the 16th,i myself wont be competing as i drove the nacks out of my saxo(as everybody saw),but i will be there as stockhatch rep and observer,so keep it clean,if i recieve any info from mi i will let you all know

So Barry is getting a day off :laugh:

im the good looken one with a pony tail,i just had a reply from ana st.claire to say the matter is being looked at and will be sorted,cant ask for more than that

Not to sure about the first part of this quote keith :laugh: but the second part is promising, lets hope for some good news and quickly.

So Barry is getting a day off :laugh:

he will be peter not only am i saving on my entry im also saving on barrys service cost:laugh:

Any Word at all... i'm thinkin at this stage that we wont find anything out till the morning of the 16th... after all IF it has been decided somewhere by somebody what is happening would they have the time now to tell everyone what the situation is. :rolleyes:

still no word as yet,hopfuly if there is changes we will be given as much time as posible to prepare no point really telling us next sunday as its busy enough on race day as it is