Ferrari-Jaguar????

I was just having a quick gander through the FORIX results archive and I discovered this: In the 1950 Italian GP at Monza, a 52-year-old Italian called Clemente Biondetti qualified 25th in his one and only grand prix start (32 secs behind Pole man J.M. Fangio). And wait for this - he was driving a Ferrari-Jaguar!! Could this ever happen in the future? - I very much doubt it - but I can't quite work out how this came about. Can does anyone know anything about this Ferrari-Jag???

From what I can gather from my big F1 book. He ran the car himself which was a Ferrari chassis fitted with a Jaguar engine.

"He was 52 years old when he made his World Championship debut in F1 at the wheel of a Ferrari 166 chassis which had been fitted with a Jaguar engine. It lasted for 17 laps."

Hope this helps.

Try the guys in the historic forum.

hmm, I guess there was no 107% time back then huh...

No, there wasn't any thought of anything like that in the overall title race rules until the mid sixties, maybe a little before, but certainly after 1962.

There was a lengthy discussion about this car, with pictures, on the Nostalgia Forum at Atlas.

Hybrids are by no means uncommon. Arnold Glass used to race a Cooper Maserati, then there was the maybach that Stan Jones (Alan's dad) raced with an engine from a German tank, then there was the famous Mercedes with the Corvette engine raced in America just to name a few. However, I think this thread really does belong in the historics forum - this is the hysterics forum.:p :laugh:

If its okay with you lot, we can move it. I don't mind it in "my" Forum.;);)

The thread at Atlas Ray mentioned can be found here:

http://www.atlasf1.com/bb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6060&highlight=Biondetti

AFAIK this was the only Ferrari ever to appear in F1 with a non-Ferrari engine apart from the 555 with a Lancia D50 engine raced by Gendebien in the 1956 Argentine & Buenos Aires GPs (and I'm not sure that counts as Ferrari rebuilt the D50s as 801s anyway!).

And just a quick note to fill you in about Biondetti, Luca:

Monza was his only WDC start, but he started racing motorbikes in 1923 and switched to cars in 1927. By 1931 he was a works Maserati driver. He later moved to Alfa Romeo where his reputation grew and he was the only man who could live with the Silver Arrows in the 1937 Tripoli GP - check out the speeds in that race!!!

Biondetti's real forte though was the punishing Mille Miglia, which he won four times: 1938, 1947, 1948 & 1949. He also won the difficult Tour of Sicily twice. He finally retired in 1954, aged 56, having placed fourth in his last Mille Miglia. He died of cancer the following year.:(

Originally posted by Valve Bounce
Hybrids are by no means uncommon. Arnold Glass used to race a Cooper Maserati, then there was the maybach that Stan Jones (Alan's dad) raced with an engine from a German tank, then there was the famous Mercedes with the Corvette engine raced in America just to name a few. However, I think this thread really does belong in the historics forum - this is the hysterics forum.:p :laugh:

I don't think old Carnal Arnold raced a Cooper-Maserati, actually, but many others did. Alec Mildren in Australia and the Centro Sud team in Europe for starters. Arnold had a BRM which was fitted with a Buick or Olds engine (ex-Scarab, I think).

There were many Corvette engines in Australia, one in the later manifestation of the Jones Maybach, another in the Tornado, a Special built around a Ford V8 with a home-brewed ohv conversion, another in a P3 (Tipo B) Alfa...

Of course, Biondetti would have loved one in his Alfa coupe for the Mille Miglia...

There's a Lister Chevrolet(?) that races in FIA historic events. Don't know its history though.:rotate:

On the argentine Mecanica Nacional (the monoposto formula) many drivers raced with chassis of one marque and engine of other marque. For example is the car "Negrita" what Fangio used before his international career. It was a Ford T chassis with Chevrolet
"Guerrero" ("warrior", because it was an engine of truck what was served on WWII) engine. The Negrita was a successful car, with many victories in local MN series (Fuerza Libre - F.Libre rules). If you want know more about this car of Fangio please take a look on
http://fangio.hypermart.net/c194718retiro.htm

I was surprised to see photos the other day of Froilan Gonzales driving a Maserati with a Chev V8 in the late fifties in Argentinian racing. And he wasn't the only one...

originally posted by peter mallett
There's a Lister Chevrolet(?) that races in FIA historic events. Don't know its history though
Some 5.7-L Lister-Corvette took part in sportscar races in the 1959 British events. Those cars were principally driven by Mike Anthony.

They competed against 3.8-L Lister Jaguar, 2.5-L Cooper Monaco Maserati, Cooper Monaco Climax, Lotus 17 Climax, Lola Climax, and of course Jaguar D, Aston Martin DBR1, Tojeiro Jaguar,...

Thanks for that Marc. I had wondered whether it was genuine or a special. I guess Lister just made the cars, the engines could be anybody's.

There is also Ferrari Chevrolet special,driven by JF GONZALES himself in one of the formule libre race from Argentina, based upon a ferrari 625 ?
Morris minor lookalike with engine from Pat hoare ferrari tasman.
Is there a picture of this car

Wanher

The Ferrari with the Morris Minor body that you asked about did not have the ex-Hoare engine. It was the ex-Peter Whitehead, ex-Tom Clark, ex Bob Smith Ferrari 555 Super Squalo (FL9001) that was used as the basis for an "allcomers saloon". It consisted of the Ferrari chassis, a Corvette V8 engine and a low-headlight model Morris Minor bodyshell. It was known as the "Morrai".
I haven't mastered the art of posting pictures but I can e-mail you a photo of the car if you send me your address.

It may be that I'm reading more emotion into the situation than was really involved, but Biondetti must have had some hard feelings towards Ferrari that caused him to assemble an English/Italian hybrid with which he might beat his former employer.After all, in 1948 Biondetti had given the fledgling Ferrari firm its most prestigious victory to date, in the Targa Florio, and the following year he had won the Targa, as well as the Mille Miglia for Maranello, only to find himself cut off thereafter as far as factory Ferrari drives were concerned.

Another veteran, Franco Cortese, who had given the Ferrari company its very first race victory (Rome GP, 1947) definitely felt neglected afterwards by Ferrari and he had also turned to British cars in seeking some revenge.I know for certain that Cortese won the 1951 Targa Florio in a Frazer Nash and it seems to me that Cortese was also drove an XK120 or 120C or Jag-engined hybrid(I'm not sure about this).

Another vague notion I have is that Jaguar running gear appearing in Italian tube-frame chassis were actually the direct inspiration for the 120C program, but I could very well be mistaken about that.

Cannot fully agree with this. Biondetti was no real Ferrari works driver, although some sources say something contrary. His 1947 Mille Miglia win was for Alfa-Romeo, and in 1948 he drove Ferraris for the Scuderia Inter, the private team of Prince Igor Troubetskoy and Count Bruno Sterzi, including his victories at the 1948 MM and the 1948 and 1949 TF. Although his MM 1949 win was a one-off works entry, I don’t think this would give him the right to be considered as full works driver. One has to realize that Biondetti then was already 51, and his capabilities were clearly at long-distance sports car racing only.

Franco Cortese was works driver in 1947 and reserve driver in 1948, but also aged already 45 then. When Ferrari started monoposto racing in 1948, it soon became obvious that Cortese would not be the right choice. Nevertheless Ferrari made a deal with him early 1949, they converted the 1948 F1 car # 06C to F2 specification, and sold it to Cortese at a favourable price. Cortese campaigned # 06C for 4 years, before retiring and selling it to Ecurie Espadon.

Hi Michael
was this the same car that O VOLONTERIO ran in Monza in 1952
as a rent-drive. I didn't knew that this car was sold to Ecurie
Espadon , the usual pictures I ve seen that the car mostly allowed to P HIRT had a 'standard' body an I always thought that the car of
F Cortese had different nose cone, and shorter eshaust
By the way nothing found at Bari.

Robert

Yes, Ottorino Volonterio used # 06C at the GP del Autodromo di Monza on 8 June 1952. This was the period where Cortese probably already thought about retiring, his last race with # 06C was on 2 August 1952 the Daily Mail International Trophy at Boreham.
It is not totally clear where the car was sold to Scuderia Espadon, or to Kurt Adolff who raced it under Espadon banner, will know more within the next weeks after talked to Adolff who is still alive and healthy.
The car shown with Hirth most probably is Fischer’s old Tipo 212 which he raced himself before acquiring the Tipo 500.

Picture below shows Kurt Adolff with # 06C at the Schauinsland Hillclimb near Freiburg / Germany in 1953.

http://www.axos.nl/retrorace/ferrari/Ferrari166F2-06C-Adolff-Schauinsland-1953.jpg

It seems according to an article in Automobiles historiques first
version that O Volonterio drive the car 31 08 1952 in an hill climb
at Maloja. This car was rebodied in 1951 .
The car now belong to P Bardinon

Interested to learn more about Volonterio and his ownership of # 06C. The Bardinon car as far I know has only the original frame, which has been found somewhere in the 70s, the rest is replica. Although the car has the correct exhaust flame pipes (which resulted from the 1951 conversion), the body is neither similar to the post-1951 car, nor to the original 1948/49 bodywork. Really a pity!

Hi Michael
Further reading this book and looking at your site
I've see also many pictures from early ferrari's racing
mostly in france I am not always agree some localisations
but great stuff for you. The picture with F Cortese I saw it
already in one book maybe in mine but not sure I ll investigate

Any new pictures are highly welcome!!

F Cortese ran also this car in a hill climb and
according the source at Freiburg-Schauinsland
with number 128 / 05 08 1951 / result ?
I ve no picture from this race

Wanher, what is the source for Cortese's Schauinsland participation in 1951? I know that 1 week later (12 Aug 1951) he was at Erlen (GP de Suisse Orientale), which is not far away from Freiburg, so this would make sense. I have a photo from Erlen, and the car was already rebodied. My source for the Schauinsland photo says "1953", but even the best sources make mistakes, so I would not exclude that the picture in fact shows Cortese in 1951.

As I say before it's coming from an article issued in
automobiles historiques first version
02 06 49 ROME GP 12 3
12 06 49 Bari 2
17 06 49 Monza 18 5
17 07 49 Reims 10 F
28 08 49 Lausanne 38 4
09 07 50 Bari 24 5
14 05 50 Mons 8 ?
11 06 50 Rome 42 DNF
23 07 50 Napoli 1 F2
20 08 50 Germany 6 F
10 09 50 Mettet 2 9
24 09 50 Périgueux 16 3
15 10 50 Garda F
13 05 51 Monza 58 DNF
20 05 51 Genova 26 DNF
03 06 51 Circuit du Lac 30 5 F2
10 06 51 Rome 32 DNF
24 06 51 Napoli 14 3
15 07 51 Mettet 5
05 08 51 Freiburg 128 ?
12 08 51 Erlen 32 7
23 09 51 Modena 14 4
16 03 52 Syracuse 10 DNF
08 06 52 Monza 56 DNF Volonterio
02 08 52 Daily Mail 11 9
31 08 52 Majola 14

I was to fast you ll see above for 06c
date/number/results
This car was proposed to O Volonterio for
buying it. The deal doesn't went and the car
was still lying in Italy till 1958
after it went to USA and was bought by P Bardinon
3 decades ago

Robert

I have the same list as you, except Schauinsland and Majola. If you can find out any details about # 06C between end of 1952 and the point Bardinon bought it (again, I have reports it was only the frame), please let me know.

I've found a photo of the car at the hill-climb at Freiburg
and it's obviously the same. Ref Ferrari by Hans Tanner 5 ed.
the picture should be in 1948 but now where, this is for
your site Michael.

Robert