Should TOCA encourage overseas entries in 2000-01 ASTC?

I believe that TOCA will have a problem if they do not go all out to get overseas cars and drivers, or just newer cars, in the next Super Touring championship. TOCA V8 Touring cars has failed to take off. I've only heard of one Falcon and a Magna being built! Let's face it, TOCA Touring cars is to similar to V8Supercar. If people want V8s they've got the Supercars. TOCA series was established originally for Super Touring, so let's kep it that way. Sure, let's have TOCA V8s as a support act, as the ASTC surely needs some decent support events, but TOCA should bite the bullet and put up the money to get overseas Super Touring entries from the 2001 European Touring Car Championship and Sweden. Without doing this the crowds will be a man and his dog, the TV will be cancelled due to lacklustre ratings, sponsors will leave, and the series will fold. What are we left with then? Nothing. We need to keep the series alive so that Australia can,. long term, get new cars from ETCC under new regulations being introduced in 2002 onwards

Future Tourers- Jumping on the bandwagon? Of course... I think the aim there was to pick up manufacturer support from people like Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi, or in other words those not involved in the Tega circus.

But would people come if there were more cars? Is the average punter who makes up the numbers really going to be drawn out of their caves because there is someone from Sweden racing? Also, how much is this going to cost, and what would that money buy locally?

The whole thing seems pointless.

GTP anybody?

BTW- whatever happened to the Super Production/Production Plus/Schedule S cars that TOCA promoted, and several people put their hands up saying that they were building cars??

And another BTW- welcome aboard Michael H :)

Michael H, you must have read my mind, i sent an email to TOCA basically outlining the same things as you said and posted it on the TOCA Funzone. I've seen heaps of 98-2000 spec super tourers for sale in Autosport, and TOCA should buty these cars and hire them to Australian teams and drivers. There's also heaps of super tourers in Asia and south africa that are free and their teams can still run them, remember the Asian FINA BMW team that was going to race in the ASTC in 99.

I think TOCA Tourers should be scrapped, and TOCA should try and get back the strengths it had in 96-97, manufacturer support, quality privateers and pretty good TV, and the crowds were pretty good , not ATCC, but good compared to know.

I agree, TOCA should get the new ETC rules ( now the FIA has adopted them as the worlds touring car formula, meaning if a WTCC is to happen, it will be to these rules ), toca should start to put plans into motions to get these in for 2003. With Alfa, Volvo and Honda committed, this could lead to those manufacturers being interested in Oz, and as the cars are easy to build, other manufacturers ( Holden, Ford, Toyota, Audi, BMW ), while not interested where they are elsewhere, and privateers could build cars in Australia. ( one of the problems i saw with ST was that as we couldn't build the cars (why?) it was perceived as a second hand series)

And get it back to winter, last season proved that in winter they were noticed more, and with 7 losing AFL, this could be a chance to step in.

First of all, I would like to commend you for your suggestion. But like Crash test mentioned, it would probably be more effective if the ASTC spent the money/resources on getting all those ST cars already in the country to show up at the races? Free entry fees or some free money for those that show up? Or at most, attract some cars from the NZ and Asian series to race

I doubt many cars from Sweden or Europe would appear b/c the distance is just too far to ship the cars back and forth?

Or as racer69 said, how about purchasing some newer ST cars and lease them dirt cheap to the teams??

As I've said elsewhere, TOCA was going to offer considerable incentives for people to race in last years series....what happened to that I will never know.

"how about purchasing some newer ST cars and lease them dirt cheap to the teams??"
- That just doesn't make sense from a business standpoint. You've then got to pay for the upkeep of the cars etc etc, and that is why no teams in the championship are buying new cars. They'd be better off offering the guy with an old dog of a Hyundai $3000 to race for the weekend....then they'd probably get a couple more cars on the grid.

From my sources down south, apparently TOCA this year will be focusing more on the Future Tourers, and from the recent boosts they have recieved, and the rumoured 'penalties' the Super Tourers would carry, it would make little sense to spend up bit to get the latest and greatest European invention, when you can go just as quickly for $125,000....and you'd get yourself a car that is easier to maintain and more cost effective.

I hate to say it, but TOCA will never succed in Australia. Without Bathurst, without big name drivers, no one will watch.

Who is going to want to see Cornish, Searle and Auger in Magna's and Camry's at Wakefield Park, when they can see Skaife, Lowndes and Johnson in Falcons and Commodores at Bathurst?

i have to say channel 7 is responsible for this, if they hadn't given up on the great race after only 2 years of a 5 year contract it could still be going alright know, Volvo & Nissan were already coming out for the 99 race.

It is probably cheaper to run Futures, but wasn't the point of having a 2nd touring car series in Oz was so we could have an australian and international series, TOCA Tourers just make no sense. Also manufacturers aren't going to be interested in racing a rear drive car powered by a different engine.

TOCA Tourers only stood a chance if the FIA made DTM or the V8STAR silouette classes the world's touring car formula. Now that they have chosen BTC Tourers, TOCA should go with that, and get Alan Gow to run the Australian series.

Channel 7 only gave up Bathurst after they incured massive losses from it...heck, the '99 500 had considerably less than 1000 paying spectators through the gates...

And what would Alan Gow do? From what I can gather he is quite glad to be doing things other than promoting Touring Cars. I think Kelvin O'Reily and friends will be out there giving their package a decent flog, but in the public's eyes, it might almost be a bit of a dead donkey...:(

SUPER TOUROURS ARE DEAD IN AUSTRALIA,BECAUSE THEY COST SO MUCH COMPARED TO V8 SUPER CARS PLUS MOST OF THE CARS ARE THAT OLD NOW THEY BELONG IN A MUSEUM.:

All else being equal, I don't believe Super Tourers are cheaper to build, buy or run than V8 Supercars.

If you think that 6 year old race cars belong in a museum, you should go and see a Historic race meeting. No really, you should! I don't believe any race car belongs in a museum, I think they should all be raced, every last one of them.

Dave Super Tourers cost a huge amount more to run V8's. Super Tourers run sometimes F1 technology in their machines compared to V8's running billy cart technology. However will you getting out an ASTC event this year. You are very right about the museum thing.

Well, it seems I have hit a nerve with a lot of people here. I take the point made by several people regarding costs of importing o/s cars. It is very expensive. As far fans not knowing any Swedish drivers, look what happend when Watts turned up at Lakeside in 1999 - the crowd doubled!
But I also get the impression from you all that you are not keen on TOCA V8s. Am I right? I'm not really interested in this concept. It doesn't make sense. What are TOCA thinking?

So that's why all these people drove the supertourers with a budget that didn't stretch, as it was, to a V8 supercar drive. Must have been the high costs of the supertourers that meant they couldn't take the same amount of money to run a V8 Supercar team at even the middle of the field.

Micheal H- the crowd doubled when Watt turned up? I doubt that, and I doubt that too many people turned up to watch Watts. The biggest ever ST meeting out there was the October 97 meeting out there....straight after all of the hype of Bathurst, they had a full grid, and a respectable turn out through the gates..

David Paterson wrote:

>If you think that 6 year old race cars belong in a museum, you >should go and see a Historic race meeting. No really, you should! I >don't believe any race car belongs in a museum, I think they should >all be raced, every last one of them
>
Well said!!!

DRT wrote:

>Dave Super Tourers cost a huge amount more to run V8's. Super >Tourers run sometimes F1 technology in their machines compared to >V8's running billy cart technology.
>
Sadly, that is the damning flaw with ST!! Too high tech!

judging by AA this week even V8's are getting pretty expensive. Losing Bathurst is what stuffed up ST, and if the 99 race was for 1000km i'm sure the Bathurst 1000 would still be around now, as it was going to be the Touring Car world Cup and interest was just picking up overseas, and the return of the ETC wouldn't have hurt.

Originally posted by D.R.T.

Dave Super Tourers cost a huge amount more to run V8's.

You've got to be ****in' kidding. Are you just making this up or what? Have you actually attempted to get any figures or are you speculating. www.V8supercar.com.au actually provides detailed costings for running a V8 Supercar. Compare this with reports from AUSTRALIAN Super Touring teams and you'll see that "All else being equal" they're on a similar plane. Also, i have personal friends who are competitors in both series and they agree, the two are comparable in costs.


Originally posted by D.R.T.

Super Tourers run sometimes F1 technology in their machines compared to V8's running billy cart technology.

This is even sillier. You have exaggerated beyond the bounds of known hyperbole. Bernie would probaly sue you for slandering F1 like that. If you think there's any billycart technology in a V8 Suupercar, you obviously haven't seen one up close. I mean real close. Either that or you didn't understand what you were looking at. The old fashioned technology in a V8 Supercar, begins and ends with the basic engine design and the rear suspensuion layout. That's it!


BTW, i will be attending every ST meting in Qld. I love 'em, it's just a shame no-one else does.

David: I don't mind Super Touring, really, i love anything that races. It's just that sometimes people can talk up what the series is these days.

I was talking to David Auger yesterday, and he will be competing this season. The way he sees it is that this will be the 5th season of racing in his car, and thus it really doesn't owe him anything.

These days he is in it purely for fun, but I have to say that they have their car incredibly well sorted, and they know what it takes to run. A couple of seasons ago, he quoted a weekend at the race track at about $5000, which in V8 Supercar terms, is pretty good value.

i reckon it'd cost less to do a season of ST than 5 litres, and if the new ETC rules get hopefully introduced, the costs will fall still, and the cars can be built in Australia.

Have to agree about the Billy cart technology in V8s, no wonder the factory fords didn't have too much trouble getting back up to speed in 99, the technology hadn't changed since '73.

TOCA should also move back to winter, in line with every other Touring Car series that matters, as no one pays attention to summer races, and summer at lakeside won't be too pleasant.

Doesn't the artists impression of what the ETC "Super 2000" Alfa Romeo 156 will look like look really cool, if they come to Oz they'll set the place alight.

Firstly- TOCA Oz wouldn't be interested in ETC cars since they fully commited to Future Tourers, and heck, they are having enough trouble getting that off the ground.

Billy cart technology- apart from the two things that David states, name the old tech? Sequential shifters? Meh...they are essentially the same gearbox, it's just the way that gears are selected are different.

I WAS THE ONE WHO FIRST PUT THIS TOPIC UP AND IT SEAMS LIKE I GOT A FEW RESULTS FROM IT . I KNOW WHAT IT COST TO GO RACEING LIKE THE SHELL ROUND. IT COST MY TEAM DOUBLE THE AMOUNT TO GO RACEING AND ALL WE GOT WAS 2 X 10 MIN RACES I RACE IN THE STREET CLASS WITH A 2 LITRE FORD EKY. THAT COST ME **** LOADS, SO I CAN IMANGE WHAT THE COST OF DOING THE SHELL ROUND IS . GO THE FORDS ..................

chassis 320K
David Paterson wrote:

>You've got to be ****in' kidding. Are you just making this up or >what? Have you actually attempted to get any figures or are you >speculating. www.V8supercar.com.au actually provides detailed >costings for running a V8 Supercar. Compare this with reports from >AUSTRALIAN Super Touring teams and you'll see that "All else being >equal" they're on a similar plane
>

engine 75K each
rebuilds 7.5K
tires 61.2K (possibly save since their is a tire refund system)
wheels 112K, min 8K for one set (can save on tires)
fuel 8.5K , $500/round
airfare 20K
hotel 23.5
food 18K
cars 9K
trailer 300K (cost is amortized as fixed setup cost)
operation of trailer $30K
car sign/body repair 120K
R&D/Testing 19.5K

I gave up!!! These are the suppposed costs for an average V8 Supercar team, I gave up adding at 600K AUS dollars!! The total is 1.3M Aus (670K US) to race competitively in V8 Supercars. Of course, some privateer teams must spend way less than this!!! I once heard a budget privateer can get away with 250K US!!

I think for the NATCC, you could have been competitive with this amount.

To compare the cost between a Super Touring team and s V8 Supercar team: I found an article that shows the costs for the Nissan team in the STCC last year. Note that the cost is for two cars.

1 US dollar = 10 Swedish Kronor

All the figures are in US Dollar

Wages

Driver wages 80.000
Other wages 151.000

Running costs

Local, administration, phone, ensuranses 35.000
Respraying of truck, trailer, racecar, motorhome 10.000
Decals, striping, other decorations 10.000
Team clothing 15.000
Hotels, travels 50.000
Renting circuits for testing 50.000
Racing tyres 96.000
Engines, including service personell 180.000
Development, running costs, spair parts 170.000
Pitlane decoration 7.500
Fuel 30.000
Entrance charge 8.000
Computers 8.000
Tent, pitgear 10.000
Costs for trucks, motorhome including ensuranses 9.000

Race cars 190.000
Transport vehicles 22.000
Other 20.000

Total cost for two STCC Nissan Primeras 2000
=
1.106.500 US Dollar

Pples, does any know how much Volvo spent on the brilliant super tourers in 99. So you guys gonna get out to some races this year, do yourself a favour and get out and see one.
Later dudes

Back in 1998, the price for the second seat in the Volvo team (most of the way through the season mind you) was going for $300,000.

Didn't think that Volvo had a second S40 in Australia in 1998, i know there was talk Richo Snr and Jnr would be teamates, but i thought Volvo Australia could only get one S40.

On that, what happened to the two 850s raced in the last 97 round of the ASTC by Richards and Tony Scott.

Put it this way, if someone paid for the second Volvo to be here in 98, then a seocnd Volvo would have been here in 98 ;)

Didn't Volvo have a 2 car team in '99? I recall they dumped the 2nd driver mid way through the season and replaced him with a veteran ASTC driver? Mark Adderton was it?

Volvo brought out Rickard Rydell's car for 98 Bathurst, and promptly won the race. That became Richard's race car in 99, while Mark Williamson raced the old car (I think it was the Volvo Oz 98 car, but it was crashed very heavily by Tim Harvey at Bathurst....) until he ran out of money. Adderton then took over, but he didn't have enough pace. They them put Cameron McLean in the car for the decider, but Cameron was spun at the first corner of the first lap, but fought back to be right in the fight by the finish. Then McLean/Richards teamed up at Bathurst 99, and of course McLean didn't get a drive....

Did McLean still get credited with 2nd place in the last great race

I believe so, Cam drove in the Practice and you can remember him and Morris came together over skyline , and remember 2litre's go faster over the top than V8's. Volvo was agreat team and is one of the biggest loses to Australian Motorsport since Bob Tweedie pulled the pin on his Vauxhill Cavalia operation at the end of 98. Bathurst 99 had some of the best commentry though, do you remember Brock bagging out on Jones for not running and then wanting to run the quattro, if only we had these times all over again.

Hmm...I don't think the race that ran less than 400km can be called the 'Great Race'..

The race was exciting though, length doesn't matter

Hmm, I think the main intrigue was to do with whether or not Richards would pit to let McLean in. There were only 2 cars in the race, and the pace car spent a lot of time on the track :(

How many cars could have won the race in 98 after Murphy/ ingall crashed out, the racing was great though ,the best "Great Race" ever. And the 99 race was great also , good racing all over the field, i remeber 6 through to 10 were going at it hammer and tongs, Porter, Searle , McGill, Loyd and the lancer, it was great.