AUSTRIA'S Trivia - Lap 5

Not as punctually as usual, but I'm still working ...

Question A) - a hard one ;)

I believe, you never will find out, when and how the following happened and who was involved: After a technical problem a racing-car got off control and crashed a taxi (!), killing it's driver and all the three taxi-passengers ...


Question B) - easy

All works-drivers of the Scuderia Ferrari in the year 1949 AND what kind of Ferrari they drove. (It's very interesting!)


Question C)

TURIN - ASTI - TURIN
The early beginnings ... but I don't know anything more: When it happened, the results, and, and, and ...

Something new: I will switch the points within every question. So you get only one point for answering the question first, but I will have more points to deal out for your stories an 'additional stuff'. Not important, but better than the actual system.

Good luck

Ok, I am very new in this Forum but I would love to give it a try.

quetstion B:

Alberto Ascari
I
Ferrari 125,

Luigi Villoresi
I
Ferrari 125,

Peter Whitehead
GB
Ferrari 125,

Felice Bonetto
I
Ferrari 166C

Raymond Sommer
F
125/166C ?

Folland
(Don't know first names and which cars they drove. Must be the 125 or the 166C)





[This message has been edited by Mephisto (edited 07 April 2000).]

Welcome Mephisto ! I'm always happy about newcomers ...

It is not as easy as it looks like ! There were a couple drivers more !

Q A:

I knew that I have read about this not so far ago, but it took me a really hard time to remember where.

Giulio Cabianca, Italy, died in Autodrome
Modena June 1961. He was testing a Cooper-Ferrari car when his gas pedal sticked to flat-out position. The Cooper continued it`s way thru a gate(which was open)to outside and went to a road next to the track. He collided with taxi full of customers in the same road few seconds later.
Three of the taxi`s customers and Cabianca were killed in the accindent.

Austria, I agree that I will get no points for this, would be unfair!

Michael, good work !!
You have the two points already!! Why unfair? Tell us please, I have no idea ...

So, now I'll pick up my kids from karate-training and look for something to eat (breakfast was my last) .. therefor no further support this evening, wish you a lot of fun together

good evening, buddies


P.S. sorry for my 'digital legastheny' and teh resulting necessary edits

[This message has been edited by AUSTRIA (edited 07 April 2000).]

I would like to add to question B :

Giovanni Braco
I
Ferrari 166C

and maybe (I am not sure if Privat driver or member of the scuderia)

Franco Cortese
I
Ferrari 166C

Austria, I had my Spaghetti already, so I go through a little bit. The taxi story I found on a webpage which has been recommended to me by you some time ago, therefore no points please!


[This message has been edited by Michael M (edited 07 April 2000).]

Mephisto, I have some more drivers, really... (very last note for today ;) )

Ok, here are some more that I found:

Sterzi
Ferrari 166 Inter/SC (scuderia Inter)

Righetti
Ferrari 166SC

Vallone
Ferrari 166 Inter

Noe this should be it now. This is the last I can find.

Q C:

The first automobile "race" in Italy, Torino-Asti-Torino in 1895. 115 kms, won by a Daimler.

Here is a finall complete answer. This is the sum up and corretcions to the question B.
Sorry for the mess that I made, by sending all these Fraction of information, but therefor I am sending now the whole thing.

Ascari Alberto Ferrari 125
Biondetti Clemente ?
Bracco Giovanni Ferrari 166C
Bonetto Felice Ferrari 166C
Cortese Franco Ferrari 166C
Farina Nino ?
Landi Chico ?
Righetti Ferdinando Ferrari 166SC
Sommer Raymond Ferrari 125/166C
Sterzi Bruno Ferrari 166 Inter/SC
Taruffi Piero ?
Vallone Roberto Ferrari 166 Inter
Villoresi Luigi Ferrari 125
Whithead Peter Ferrari 125/166C

I just realised that there is of chourse not only GP but all the rest two,

Question B)

There is my try for 1949 Ferrari works driver :

Farina, Ferrari 166 FL
Sommer, Ferrari 125 F1 and 166 F2
Bonetto, Ferrari 125 F1 and 166 F2
Villoresi, Ferrari 125 F1 and 166 F2
Ascari, Ferrari 125 F1 and 166 F2
Taruffi, Ferrari 166 F2
Cortese, Ferrari 166 F2
Tadini, Ferrari 166 F2

I think the others were only privaters. (not quite sure for some of them...) For me P. Whitehead,Folland, Fangio and Landi were certainly privaters.


Question C)

Turin-Asti-Torino, May 29th 1895, “about 93 km”

1 Federman, Daimler 6h00
2 Ceirano, ?
3 Wolfmüller, Wolfmüller

My french book told me that Ceirano was on a Moto, and Wolfmüller on a Moto Wolfmüller. As
you may know, “moto” is the french word for motorbike. So I do not know if “Moto” here was a brand of car or if Ceirano and Wolfmüller were on motorbikes...

PS1 : I used only one source for this one, so 93 km may be a mistake, and Michael may be right with 115 km. Or maybe the explanation is in the “about”...

PS2 : Austria, your last mail I received was on March 26th, and I think I sent an answer (or try at least). So if you have sent me another one since, it must have been lost in way.


Testa Rossa

Testa Rossa, don't forget that the SF was also engaged in sports car racing, not only GP.

You are correct, "Wolfmüller" is a motorcycle, to be correct the first German motorcycle at all, patented 1894, the name of the company was "Hildebrand & Wolfmüller" at Munich.
The (modern) direct distance between Torino and Asti is 56 kms, so most probably 115 kms would be correct.

Hey guys! This is fantastic knowledge! You always show me, that to ALL chosen topics there is to find some more stuff, that I had not before.

Question A)
Nothing to add ...

Question B)
Really interesting, as I promised you. The official Ferrari site lists the following drivers (without any comments):

Ascari Alberto
Biondetti Clemente
Bonetto Felice
Cortese Franco
Farina Nino
Landi Chico
Sommer Raymond
Taruffi Piero
Vallone Roberto
Villoresi Luigi

No Whitehead? Never trust your sources - even the 'official' ones. The truth? Its one characteristic property of racing history, that many detail-questions stay wide open.

Bracco, Sterzi, Righetti - The 166Inter from Scuderia Inter is worth a own topic! A very interesting Ferrari-'Special'.

And Tadini? Folland? I don't think they were works-drivers. But see above (never trust ...)

Question C)
Was it a race? The reason, I put in this topic: I had only the date, nothing else. But it seems to be the very first car-race. The 'motos' certainly were the same, as shown in other races - called 'trikes', 'tricycles', 'cyclecars' or even 'voiturette' (see earlier trivia-lap).

But if this event was held as 'race', the the Paris-Bordeaux-Paris Trial was NOT the very first 'real' car-race? Very interesting indeed ...

Torino-Asti-Torino:
My source says in Italian „Torniamo in Italia. Nel 1895 subito dopo la Parigi-Rouen, si era già svolta la prima corsa automobilistica: la Torino-Asti-Torino, 115 km vinta da Daimler”, “dopo” meaning “after” the Raris-Rouen event, which was held already July 22, 1894 (127 km, won by Comte de Dion on a steampowered own construction). Details can be seen at http://www.cnam.fr/museum/revue/ref/r24a06__a.html
However, the question will always be the difference between a trial and a race.
No, the "Hildebrand & Wolfmüller" was no tricycle, it was really the first (at least in Germany) motorcycle with 2 wheels, that’s the reason they received patent on it.

Scuderia Ferrari:
Mattijs Diepraam on his normally well researched site lists the following SF drivers for 1949:
Villoresi, Ascari, Bonetto, Sommer, Folland, P Whitehead, (Farina).
In those times it was normal that the drivers entered the various events under constantly changing entrants. Some examples:
Raymond Sommer: GPs he entered mainly with bis beloved Talbot-Lago, but for sportscar races he used 166C and 166SC as official SF member but also as privateer.
Peter Whitehead: at Goodwood he uses his old ERA B type, but later the year he switched to a Ferrari 125. Diepraam is listing him under Scuderia Ferrari, but also under Scuderia Ambrosiana, and as privateer (all for 1949).
Nino Farina: the GPs he entered all on Maserati, for Scuderia Milano, Scuderia Ambrosiana, CSI, and as Dr. G. Farina. Ferrari is listing him as works driver, and Diepraam too, but only in brackets, meaning he was entered but did not start.
Roberto Vallone: according to Ferrari works driver, but entered also under Scuderia Lazio. However, the 166C Spyder Corsa Allemano (car # 008I) he used during 1949 was definitively a SF car. On the other side, in the same year he bought a 166MM Touring Barchetta (car # 0012M), but I do not know whether he raced this car already in 1949 (1950 4th in MM).
It will need a lot of work to establish detailed specification for each driver, car, and event.
Francesco Landi: although listed by Ferrari as SF team member for 1949, more information is lacking. In 1948 he drove for Scuderia Milano.
Dudley Folland: shown by Diepraam as SF member, however, I believe this information is wrong. Together with mate John Willment be bought from Prince Troubetskoy the 166 Spyder Corsa # 010I, which he drove at Goodwood (1st), Bari (5th), and the manx Cup (DNF).
Mario Tadini: as we all know Mario was one of the founders of the Scuderia Ferrari, but I didn’t know that raced also after the war. However, knowing Testa Rossa I believe this information must be correct.

Austria, adding the word „easy“ to this question was a heavy mistake ...

I am quite sure that P. Whitehead was only a privater, but I think that Farina used a works Ferrari 166 FL to win the Rosario GP in March. I agree with Michael that Folland is definitely a privater.
About Tadini, he was 2nd at the Lac de Guarde and at the Coupe des Petites Cylindrées at Reims. (Behind Villoresi in Italia and Ascari in France). So his post-war racing is a fact, but that is car was a Scuderia Ferrari one is only a supposition; I may be wrong.
About 008i, I think it was a 1948 works car. I think it was sold for 1949, as it was only used by Vallone this year, whereas works cars are often used (at least at Ferrari and at this time) by several drivers. Morevoer 008i was a 166 I, and by 1949 the Scuderia had several 166 F2 ready, so why using the old design ? Remember, Ferrari is no Maserati (4CLT/50 story...) I think that no 166 I were used by the Scuderia in 1949.

Testa Rossa

Concerning Whitehead Testa Rossa may be right, although Diepraam normally has good sources. May be be entered only one race under SF flag, or it happened the same to him than to Fangio at Monza in 1949. The 166 F2 he picked up at Modena just before the race, but the car was not paid yet. So after winning against strong competition from SF, Ferrari immediately claimed the car a works car – because it was not paid yet -, and Fangio consequently a works driver. However, immediately thereafter they claimed of course the outstanding payment!

166 008I: The case histories I use normally show all car sales, but in case of 008I nothing is shown between 1948 and 1949. However, TR’s argument that only one driver used the car may in fact show it was privately owned.
The races entered by Vallone – as far I know – had been elegible for sports cars only, so I doubt that the 166 F2 could be entered.

Q.A: I can add only one detail concerning that crash: according to my sources, after the crash with the taxi, the car finished his fool run hitting the outside wall of coachbuilder Carrozzeria Orlandi, sited in the Carlo Zucchi street.

Q.A: I can add only one detail concerning that crash: according to my sources, after the crash with the taxi, the car finished his fool run hitting the outside wall of coachbuilder Carrozzeria Orlandi, sited in the Carlo Zucchi street.

Q.A: A little more stuff: as far as I know, the Scuderia Eugenio Castellotti's Cooper-Ferrari's where entered as Cooper-Castellotti, the Ferrari 555 Super Squalo engine's wearing in his cam box cover "Eugenio" instead of "Ferrari".

Very interestig story about Fangio and the 166 F2, Michael.
008i and Vallone were seen in a least three races for Formula cars in 1949 :

GP de San Remo 1949 (F1)
GP de Marseille 1949 (F1)
GP de Bari 1949 (F2)

About Peter Whitehead :

- “British private entrant Peter Whitehead had bought one of the original cars”, refering to Ferrari racing in 1949, by Doug Nye, “History of the GP car 1945-1965”.

Moreover P. Whitehead is well known for being a private entrant of great racing cars, having bought in about 10 years : a Ferrari 125 F1, a Cooper-Jaguar T33, a Cooper-Jaguar T38, an Alta F2, an Aston Martin DB3S, a Ferrari 750 Monza, a Ferrari 625 FL, a Lister-Jaguar Knobbly...

Testa Rossa


[This message has been edited by Testa Rossa (edited 09 April 2000).]

Great discussion, i love that. I'm sorry, but I don't find any time at the moment to reply more comprehensive. But I will do later. The Ferrari-chassis-logs are worth to lighten it. I hope, I can find some time next week.

So long ...

Question A)

Well done Michael (quick)and Jarama (brought more stuff, than I had prepared to tell you ;)) - one point each man

Question B)

Michael, I agree, name it 'easy' it was a mistake. I struggle putting together a chassis-log for the Ferrari-monoposti, built in the years 1948 - 1951. If I named that easy ...

They changed the system in 1950, 012C got 125-C-01, 012C got 125-C-02, ..
A cuple of chassis they have rebuilt not only one time ...
If I will find enough, i will start a new topic.

I am not able to solve the mystical use of Ferrari to get theit worksdrivers, but the one is clear, they also don't know any more, as you can see on their official homepage.

Mephisto scores the point; Michael and Testa Rossa each one point for 'additional stuff'.

Question C)
For me, Torino-Asti-Torino was in fact the first motor-race. It has been held a few weeks before the Paris-Bordeaux-Paris Trail and was a real race. Paris-Rouen is not to be named a race. A jury decided about the winner. BTW, Michael, the article from Nicolas Neiertz is not the best suggestion for any information about the early beginnings of motorsport, it is not well rechearched and their are some mistakes. The Hildebrandt&Wolfsmüller-bicycle also was entered in the Paris-Bordeaux-Paris Trail in 1895, as well as a electric vehicle!

Testa Rossa and Michael sharing the score, both get two points.

And the 'Tenth bonus point'? Clear, Mephisto take it home, he is the first Rookie, scoring regular points in this very special trivia !


A 'happy easter' to all of you! E.T.

Do not agree that Paris-Rouen cannot be called a race, because a jury decided about the winner. Quote D. David:
"The first organized event was actually a Reliability Trial run from Paris to Rouen in 1894 over a distance of 126 km. It was organized by a newspaper, Le Petite Journal, and the winning "horseless carriage" had to be "safe, easily controllable and reasonably economical to run." Twenty one entries left Paris on July 22nd, and the first home was Count de Dion in a steam driven De Dion tractor. Unfortunately for De Dion, the jury decided that his car was not a practical road vehicle and instead awarded the prize jointly TO THE NEXT TWO LEADING CARS, a Peugeot and a Panhard-Levassor respectively."
This means that first finisher was disqualified because the "car" was not within the rules, something which also happens today in modern racing. To divide into "trials" and "races" I believe is also not realistic, because all competitions in this era had been more or less trials only. Don't believe the increase of average speed from 17 km/h (Paris-Rouen) to 24 km/h (Paris-Bordeaux) makes this difference.

I have to agree with MichaelM, the Paris-Rouen Trial can be called a race.
It was won by Count Jules de Dion but he was disqualified, although my information says it was not because the car wasn't within the rules, but because de Dion was not accompanied by a mechanic.

1894. Paris-Rouen Trial - 22 July - Paris-Rouen: 127 Km.

Results:

1 Jules de Dion - de Dion - 6:48'00" (disq.)
2 Georges Lemaitre - Peugeot - 6:51'30"
3 Doriot - Peugeot - 7:04'30"
4 H. Panhard - Panhard - 7:21'30"
5 Emile Levassor - Panhard - 7:43'30"
6 Kraeutler - Peugeot - 7:46'30"
7 Mayade - Panhard - 8:09'00"
8 Le Brun - Le Brun - 8:12'00"
9 Michaud - Peugeot - 8:25'00"
10 Dubois - Panhard - 8:38'00"
11 Rigoulot - Peugeot - 8:41'00"
12 Vacheron - Vacheron - 8:42'30"
13 De Bourmont - de Bourmont - 8:51'00"
14 E. Roger - Benz - 10:01'00"
15 M. Le Blanc - Serpollet - 10:43'00"
16 Gautier - Gautier Wehrlé - 12:24'30"
17 Ernest Archdeacon - Serpollet - 13:00'00"

Did not finish:
Scotte - Scotte
De Montais - de Montais
E. Le Blanc - Serpollet
De Prandières - Serpollet

It seems, that we first have to fix some meanings. Probably we don't use them in the same way?

Trial: Testing something, of course sometimes possible also during a race ;)
Trail: Something like a rallye? Done by pioneers (of course included in 'race')
Race: Competition. The fastest competitor wins, if he and his car match the rules and not is penalized.


To Question C) and Paris-Rouen:
Risking some more opposition I explain once more: It was no race - officially ! It was a 'trial of reliability'. regulation stated, that the winner would be the vehicle, that was without danger easily handled by the driver and low running of costs. The award was 5000 francs.
Quote: ' ... and instead awarded the prize jointly TO THE NEXT TWO LEADING CARS, a Peugeot and a Panhard-Levassor ... ' As Gerard listed correct, the next two cars had been two Peugeots. The prize was NOT awarded TO THE NEXT TWO LEADING CARS (sorry Dennis). The prize went instead jointly to Peugeot and Panhard&Levassor for 'conforming so well to the rules without, as yet, fully realizing the dreams of the tourist or the businessman'. De Dion was not disqualified, but had to be satisfied with the second prize of 2000 francs for his 'interesting steam tractor wich ... develops a speed absolutely beyond comparison, espacially when going uphill'. To read in 'Le Petit Journal'.

(Sources: Ivan Rendall - The Chequered Flag; Peter Roberts - Racing Cars and the History of Motor Sport)

So was it to call a race? The participants, especially De Dion and Levassor, went to change the event into a race, this is obvious. So far you can see it as a race, but official it never was one - although the speed of de Dions steamer was one reason to award him the second prize.


By the way, I have fond two competitions in 1896, lacking any further information:
Bordeaux - Langon
Bordeaux - Agen - Bordeaux
Does anybody of you sirs (I'm sorry, but it seems we have no ladies here ...) know anything more ?

In addition to the Ferrari-question i was doing some work on researching the Ferrari racing cars from 1947 and the following years. As I mentioned, there will soon come a own thread. But there is a big gap in my records concerning the Cars of the Scuderia Inter, that are the 166SC (166Inter) with the chassis-numbers 008I - 014I with F2-2liter-nonsupercharged-engines. Who can close this gap. Who built the cars (Scuderia Ferrari, Scuderia Inter or somewhere else) and who used the cars. What reason for setup a new form of Chassis-numbers. The differences to the 'normal' 'C'-cars of the 166SC-series. The instigators, the targets and all those things.