Top Hat Touring Car Races

Now here’s an interesting idea.

Julius Thurgood is a motor trader dealing in classic and historic cars. He’s also a racing enthusiast. Last year he organised a one-hour classic/historic touring car race at Silverstone. This year it has developed into a series known as the Top Hat series and will race at Brands Hatch, Silverstone and Spa. All one-hour, two driver, races.

Entry is by invitation but the cars can be CSCC, HRSR, Goodwood or FIA appendix K. The only stipulation is that they must be Touring Cars (no TVRs please) and pre 1965.

So, apart from your opinions on this initiative, I would be interested to read what car you would race if you had the time and money? Or what cars would form your ideal grid. Note variety is the key to getting an entry so I don’t expect the organisers would want to see a grid full of Mini Coopers or Lotus Cortinas. ;)

AUSTIN A35!!!! :)

Some that had touring car racing history, but we never, ever see on the circuits these days...

Borgward Isabella TS
Austin A40 Farina
Austin A90 Westminster
Riley RM saloon
DKW Sonderklasse
Renault 8 S or Gordini
Sunbeam Rapier

I'd have a Sunbeam or a Borgward myself.

The problem is a financial one. To prepare a standard touring car to average race specification will cost min. 7000 pounds / 20000 marks / 9000 dollars. To make it a winner you have to double or even triple these amounts. If one invests so much money, he has to know for what, and consequently the only target is winning. That's the reason why so much Minis, Cortinas, Lotusses (is this correct?) and Mustangs are around in historic TC racing.

Take Tim's Bordward, even if you put 20.000 pounds in it, it will not be competitive, because the racing parts you need are not available. For a Cortuna you only need a chassis number, all the rest you can buy more or less over the counter. Even if Tim would prepare the Borgward on minimum specs, you need to strip it, put a cage in it, plus some other safety equipment, solex carbs, plus plus plus. Is it worth to invest a large sum of money only to participate in a few races, which you finish 2 or 3 laps behind the leader? And is it worth to destroy a perfectly restored and rare car only for a few events? The only other option is to put it on the track with its standard 75 HP, without safety equipment, with the firm idea in your mind that you are practizing now historic motorsport. In my opinion that's the badest idea at all.

We have a Mercedes 300 SE which is prepared to full 1963 works specification (except the direct fuel injection, are still experimenting), but this car never will see any race track. It is a perfect long distance rallye car, strong, durable, and fast, and that are exactly the events it is entered in. But on a circuit it's a looser, right from the beginning.

I believe the idea of bringing as much as possible makes and types together for this series in first instance looks interesting, but will not work in reality.

what about a 1964 Prince Skyline GT now there 's something that's alot different.
2000cc sohc 6 cylinder triple webers standard 12 port head, twin exhaust/split headers 2 spot calipers on front, finned alloy rear drums, 5 speed zf design gerabox,lsd. 99 ltr fuel tank for long distance hammering. 5 x 13 rims 1070 kg
can send web addresses so you can check them out if wanted

A good point, Michael, but I for one would want to take part for the sheer taking part! I would have no interest in taking a car in this class - even a common Mini Cooper, and thrashing it to an inch of its life in an effort to make first place.

The Borgward Isabella idea came to me as there was one which ran frequently in the late 1970s-early 1980s in Britain, and did well against Jaguar 2.4 and MG Magnette entries. It was still road registered (XTA928, if anyone knows where it is) and perfectly tractable on the street. It was also, if the truth be known, a bit scruffy - not a show winner, by any means.

Also, remembering the Borgwards that took part in the BTCC in the early 1960s, the preparation was one of the first jobs given to Bill Blydenstein, the DTV Vauxhall tuning wizard.

I like the idea of a series devoted to variety over professionalism. That's the Goodwood ethos, and that's why last year's event saw an Alfa Romeo 2600 Sprint, Renault Dauphine and BMW 700 Coupe on the grid.

Even the FIA Touring Cars used to have Michael Preising's little Opel Olympia tagging along, always last, always driven with skill, bravery and caution. Sadly, I understand that car was lost in a road-rally accident.

And thinking of Mercedes, isn't there that gorgeous blue 300SE which does the European Historic meetings? Hopelessly slow in its class, it looks beautiful, and sounds like thunder, and is always one of my favourites whenever it comes to a British circuit, even if it's never going to challenge the Mk2 Jags that it competes against.

Well, its a start, but what about the idea itself? ;)
BTW. I think you could have some fun with an MG 1100. Remember with the twin carb set up it would be as powerful as a Mini Cooper. Also if you got hold of an American spec two door you'd have a rigid shell to play with.

Sounds like it will be a great series Peter. It would be fun to race an EH Holden in Europe, to a chorus of WTF is that? My pick though, would probably be a Mk I Cortina GT. Not an ambitious bloke am I?

Well David, the point is that there are loads of Cortina's GT or Lotus and there are usually only 30 places (except Spa which can cater for 65!). So a little variety is in order I think.

TimD's Borgward is an interesting one. Ther's a few racing in France and Belgium but none in the UK.

Anything from Oz would of course provide interest. ;)

Beware of bringing a Skyline into Britain, my friends. It may fall into the wrong hands.

Would you believe some nincompoop actually banger raced a perfectly good one last year, which he had imported specially....

Now, thinking of Aussie metal, how about one of those monster old Valiants, the ones that tore around Mount Panorama with skinny tyres under those huge "eyebrow" wheel arches?

That would be fun to see.

As to Borgwards - I just remembered about two months ago, Yahoo! auctions listed a rust-free but dented Isabella 2 door sedan in barn-find condition for $800 US. The only wee small problem was that it was in rural Georgia, USA.

Michael,

I hope you don't advocate the chassis number scam!!!!

You make some good points but you maybe miss the object of the thing. You can run in classes (as in rallying) and can still be an outright champion without winning a race. You need to keep scoring class points. Anyway, the whole point is that this series brings cars together which race in other championship but get very little chance to race competitively together.

Its a challenge but I wouldn't mind betting that you could build a good useable (reasonably competitve) small capacity car for a lot less than your figures.

I know of a race prepared A35 which was sold as a going concern (complete with roll cage which is mandatory) for around £3000.00. It is racing with the CSCC on a regular basis. ;)

Hey Peter, (Sneddon not Mallet)
A good friend of mine is currently building a Prince Skyline GT to race in Group N, the car is about 90% complete and should be a real weapon at Qld Raceway, Lakeside however will present some real challenges I think. Can you please send me those websites, i might find something that will interest/assist him.

I used to raace a skyline down here in Melbourne for over 10 years . the car does present many problems. Still have my car complete and almost ready to go in the shed.Will dig out the web sites and get them to you. My car was featured in the Nissan dealers magazine a few years ago. competed at the 1989 Adelaide AGP, Sandown round of the World Sports Car Chshp., AGP at Calder in about 1986. Also the car was photographed for Aust Sports and Classic a few years ago.
Got it to the stage where I was knocking on the doors of EH holdens at Winton in the late 80's. Long circuits like PI and Sandown were a different matter. Ran out of revs, 6,800 in 5th was not fast enough to saty with them.
Did you get the info that I sent to you WRT the brakes on your Datto?

A bit more of the story on my Skyline
Its a genuine S54-BE2 (Triple Weber standard). Completely restored. Started racing the car in 1985.

many highlights , plenty of broken bits.
Highlight finishing 11 th o/Right at Sandown Touring Car race one year. Started 22 on grid in a realy wet race . track was streaming. great start a nd many cars fell of after an EH spun at turn 1. 16th by end of lap 2. could have finished 10 th o/r if i had the goulies to go under the mini at the top of the back straight on the last lap. I had him all set up but figured that behind him was better than hanging the car off the armco. so discretion won out. I'll never know if I could have beaten him.
Embarrasing the next day when had to start from 11 in the dry finished back in the high teen as all the cars with bulk HP passed me like i was standing still. By heck 427 galaxies can shake your car as they go past.

Hello!
Where can i get some more info about this race. It would be fun too get over too you and let you have a smell of 2-stroke oil from an great Saab 96 1965.
6500rpm and lots of blue smoke from an 3cyl 2-stroke engine is good to here, see and smell..we are having a serie here in sweden starting this summer that is called "1000cc Cup" and there it will participate 8-12 Saab 850cc. this will be a great time when the race´s starts whith all those roaring small engines.

Afraid you are too late for Silverstone which is this weekend. However you need to fax Julius Thurgood on +44 (0) 1926 885835. Send him details of you and your car and he will send you the necessary info. No website I'm afraid.

Goos luck. ;)

[This message has been edited by Peter Mallett (edited 25 May 2000).]

I was prompted to post this thread by a magazine article which described the efforts of a racer who purchased a Renault Dauphine.

He has built it into a Renault Gordini Dauphine. Now. I know of one in the UK which is for sale (non-runner) for £50.00. (Buyer collects).

Makes you think doesn't it? ;)

Ok i contact This man Julius soo i can get some more info.
This idee about the race i great, i have had some idees too.
I have a loot of contacts here i Sweden and have been talking about this kind of races and have had some positiv reaktions around it.
Could there be some intresst to have a serie that runs in one or two countries?????.
for ex one race here in Sweden at a track in southern parts of our countrie. For ex Anderstorp och Ring Knutstorp.
i can give you info about the tracks if you want that.
The race could bee a stand alone race,

Well, I saw the round at Silverstone this weekend, and I liked what I saw.

There were a lot of the usual suspects at the front, with some indecently quick '65 Mustangs and the inevitable Mk2 Jags, but there was some reassuringly mundane machinery playing for the sake of taking part.

Gabriel Konig (remember that name?) belting around in a Farina Austin A40, the same Renault Dauphine which had such fun at the Goodwood Revival last year, a lovely little Riley 1.5 which cornered on its doorhandles, and survived a coming together with a spinning Lotus Cortina with barely a mark, and of all things a 1955 Chevy Sedan!

It only lasted 2 laps, but it sounded fabulous, and took up a huge bit of road.

Add to the mix Gerry Marshall and Jackie Oliver taking two of the Mustangs by the scruff of the neck, and all in all a great race.

My only criticism would be that the compulsory pitstop broke up a fabulous dice between a pair of Mini Coopers, but apart from that, there's not a lot that has to be done to this format.

Quote of the week comes from an incident when an accident damaged Cortina was dissuaded from going the wrong way up pit lane...

Pitlane marshal (to flag marshal): "Not a happy bunny!"

Angry voice from retreating Cortina: "I'll give you *unprintable* happy bunny!"



[This message has been edited by TimD (edited 30 May 2000).]

Ian Gough. He was leading his class by approx. 20 seconds when he threw it away. He was even less happy at Mallory on Monday when he broke his second gearbox of the day. http://ten-tenths.accelerator.org/ubb/wink.gif

Ian Gough's well renown preparation team installed an 'unbreakable' £1500 (USD2400) Jack Knight gearbox.....Ian having a reputation for destroying boxes.... it lasted a few laps of practice before he BROKE THE MAINSHAFT!!!!!!!!

Dear Ian,
30 year old race cars need respect, full power gear changes without TAG electronics is foolish! Off the throttle (possible dip clutch) change (double D if necessary) back on throttle. Yes you lose 0.05s per lap but you finish and its CHEAPER!

Luv
IanC

Dear Ian,

What would you know about finishing races? http://ten-tenths.accelerator.org/ubb/wink.gif

(Only kidding - your car's great!)

A Fan xx

Maisie


Ouch!!!

<vbg>

I'm getting better......I AM TOO!


Haven't spun in a race for a while!

And I've finished 2 out of 4 races, the DNFD were for two mechanical failures.

AND I'M NOT BEING DEFENSIVE!"!!!!

<VBG>
IanC

I think it's a great idea but what about a category for post '65 cars , say 65-83 , there was a one hour race at BH organised by CSCC a couple of weeks ago - well subscribed and popular with the crowd (the crowd I was with at any rate )
My choice , trying to resist the lure of the Mk11 Jag would be a Consul 375 , big and ponderous but different. The week before on MG raceday was an MG 1100 saloon in amongst all the midgets and 'b's - it came sixth !!!

[This message has been edited by Slowcoach (edited 02 June 2000).]

Welcome Slowcoach.

You are of course right about the one-hour CSCC races. The next is at Pembrey in august. These races are run for the drivers in all of the CSCC championships except those in Classic Thunder. Glad you enjoyed the Brands Hatch event. For your info one of our members, Yelwoci, is the driver of the RX7 which finished third.

I am familiar with the MG Car Club Phoenix Championship and I think you'll find that the "1100" is in fact a highly modified 1300 which has been campaigned by the (fabulous?) Botelle brothers for the last six years. It actually wouldn't meet any of the regs for the Top Hat or CSCC races because it is so highly modified.

There is a Zephyr 6 which ran with the CSCC over last few years and which I believe may be for sale. I too think that an MG 1100 would make a good entry into the Top Hat series.

Thanks PM
Intersting to hear about Yelwoci , I am also now registered to race in the CSCC championship - actually Classic Thunder - so I guess I still won't get to participate in a one hour race ! Hopefully my debut outing will be at Silverstone on the 8th July and I'll get a chance to introduce myself to RX7man.
I must admit I suspected the little MG had been tweaked but it was great to see it battling with all the sports cars.

Unfortunately? I got a little headstrong and leapt in with almost the first racecar I went to see (despite the lack of engine)and anyway really I'm a 70's car man ,I think the Zephyr is probably actually older than me - honest!

Well why not pop down to the Racer's forum and join in the bulls**t that occurs there? http://ten-tenths.accelerator.org/ubb/wink.gif

I have discovered a racer in our midst who is entered for the next Top Hat race at Spa in September. Thought he might like to tell us about it here.;)

Don't forget. The next round is Spa in September.;)

Had a chat with Doug "Dusty" Rhodes at Coys this weekend.

You may recall his very standard red Ford 105E Anglia at the Goodwood Revival a couple of years back. It also got a big writeup in Classic and Sportscar after the first Revival, explaining how to go classic saloon racing on a microscopic budget.

Well, poor little Anglia died in a horrid testing accident at Silverstone, which also resulted in Dusty's hand winding up in a cast, after it was trapped outside the car during the roll.

Anyway, the practical upshot is that the car has now been re-shelled, and will probably be on the lists for next year's Top Hat. I'm looking forward to that. Not only is Dusty the nicest person you could hope to meet, but his car is absolutely in the spirit of the Top Hat regulations.

What exactly is the "spirit of the Top Hat series Tim?

They allow cars from the CSCC, HSCC and HARA etc. That covers a lot of "modified" classes. Having said that, the rules allow all different levels of preparation so you do get a good cross section of cars.;)

*bump* Its been four years since this series was inuagurated and this thread talked about what might be. Now we know. Any further thoughts? ;)

How about an historic race series that makes it worthwhile in terms of glory rather than just personal satisfaction to enter a less fashionable or lower powered car.

My proposal is for run what you brung races with a handicapping system based on rewarding weight and low performance.

Grid positions would depend on points scored for features such as single carb choke, steel bodyshell and ride height. Points would then be awarded for grid position i.e. 1 for pole, 2 for second etc.

The race would have a rolling start and yellow flags to the exit of the first corner. At the finish points would be awarded for finishing position.

To determine the final positions both sets of points would be added together. The driver with the lowest total gets to drink the milk.

If there is any interest I shall elaborate on my ideas for handicapping.

The race would have a rolling start and yellow flags to the exit of the first corner.

That's a non-starter (pun intended). How do you signal a first-corner incident if you're already showing yellows?

I think the Pomeroy trophy works on a similar basis.

Yellow flags where used at Spa to start the race, we where strictly told 5-8- KPH until you pass the start line, I was doing about 60mph and was 1/2 a mile behind everything else . . . .I bet those behind me where well peeved!

back on topic, I think the series has grown from strength to strength, and given the demise of the CTCRC series (a shame) and the extreme modifications within the HRSR, Julius idea of FiA regs for pre66 is as good as its going to get to level the playing field.
Unfortunately no matter how much money I could beg/borrow/steal I son't think a GT Cortina will beat a Lotus, but we race what we can afford, what we like, and we're happy with it. as long as we're in the action with someone to race it'll be enjoyable.

and given the demise of the CTCRC series (a shame) and the extreme modifications within the HRSR,

The CTCRC Pre 66 Races still exists in the form of a 6 round series for 2005.

CTCRC Race Dates (http://www.csccgb.co.uk/pages/dates.asp)

It does Chris, but its not quite what it was, and I still don't understand why the grids are so small ! I may do a few myself this year . . .Brands would be top of my list if I can squeeze it in and afford it !

until all pre 66 cars are running to Appendix FIA spec both HSCC and CTCRC will be increasingly marginalized. Julius realized this and his series will continue to go from strength to strength. Its a great shame that especially the HSCC dont have the same vision. I have stopped tin top racing and concentrating on sportsracers until such time that its all FIA cars. The good news is that it looks like I will not have to be absent from Top Hat for that long! I dont want to come across as being pompous but its very dull doing an HSCC round and seeing Hot Rod Anglia's and 2 litre Alfa's making a mockery of period racing. Rant over!

It depends whether you want an accurate reflection of period racing or not. Cross-refering this to a number of other threads, I suspect most people wouldn't give two hoots whether the cars are authentic or not providing the racing is good. I fall into that category.

As more drivers of FIA cars (which are normally the more interesting) get increasingly fed up as I was you will find that they desert these series and just do the FIA series. At that point you will see a race of oversized cars (which are normally not as well presented as they do not have the same value) . Pretty much what you can see anytime at Lydden Hill or other small club circuit. Fine in its way but not prestigeous historic racing.

So what you want is more restrictions (to FIA-spec cars), and ergo more different race series (since there is still a market for people who want to race non-spec cars)? But aren't we trying to reduce the number of series?

I think the middle ground on this issue is this

for a genuine period pre66 saloon series you have to run to FiA, or pretty damned close. that means not running hot rods, they didnt do it then so why do it now

iF YOU WANT TO RUN a heavily modified car as was the norm by the late 60's and very popular in the early 70's then great, I think we all appreciate the cars and their preperation, BUT its a different class and should be treated as such, isnt that what classic thuder is all about ???

Both series make good viewing and are popular, but I'm with Simon in as much as its not that enjoyable or safe to have such a difference in performance when the cars are supposedly 'the same'

having watched a vast mix last year some of the hot rod Anglias would beat sierras and capris on lap times alone. look at the period lap times . . . . . .

the CTCRC series had well revised regs, but was poorly supported

the HRSR had good regs which have been relaxed by a committee of hot rod racers

The FiA series is way too expensive and time consuming to all but the extremely wealthy

Top Hat isnt the cheapest, (what is cheap!) but offers good circuits, good comraderie and good race durations, and as near as damn it a fair and level playing field, as long as the entrants maintain the 'gentlemans conduct' requested and required it will continue ro thrive

I think the evidence is clear - look at the grids of Top Hat and Cloth Cap races, fantastic cars, great racing. If you look at other similar series, Gentlemen Drivers for example you will see great cars as well and the common link is that they are all FIA cars - in other words they are all prepped to a similar standard and spec.
it is more expensive than the clubbies but worth it. No one is trying to create more series simply bring a common standard into practice. Why not have a 70's hot rod series... I might even prep a car to that spec as I quite like them too just not against FIA cars!

According to my sources the 70's series is not for "hot rods" its for FIA Groups 1 and 2 categories (Speak to Ken Clarke). I know that currently the later 60's hot rods are being allowed into the races until such time as the others become more numerous.

Simon, you appear to think that FIA regs stopped at 1965 which is clearly untrue. The Hot Rods are actually built to App J Group 5 which ran in that guise in 1968-70 and included Anglias and Porsches. The FIA Historic Championship now includes Group 2 up to 1973 (Hence the RS 2600 at Spa last year).

To take the point about value. I have to say that I value my car as much as you value yours and even if it isn't an original 3.0s (which it isn't) it is built to the necessary regulations and I believe even complies with the requirements of the FIA passport as it stands now, so I take excepetion to your jibe that assumes only those with deep pockets (and thus pre 1965 App K cars) can be considered racers. I remind you that Top Hat is, like the CTCRC, a club racing organisation.

Obviously a bad day at the bank there. ;)

Peter you missed my point entirely
HSCC rounds last season started to be more banger racing than circuit and the point I was trying to make is that series like Toph Hat, Gentlemen Drivers etc... have a good non contact emphasis. I do believe that there is a certain mindset in a driver of an oversized engine that there isnt in an FIA prepped car (whether it be appdx K or J) as they tend to take more pride in teh car and therefore whilst racing closely dont assume it to be a contact sport.
I do vehemtly think that FIA is teh way forward from a competitor and investment standpoint and I think in the current environment anyone who builds a new car to non FIA spec is missing the point of where historic racing is going and clearly doesnt want to race at great circuits like Spa. Peter from what you say you could get papers for your car so without realizing it I guess you are on the same saide as me on this!! Re the bank after spending a month in SA coming back to cold blighty is certainly not great!!

Oops,

Should have said "implied" jibe.

I do vehemtly think that FIA is teh way forward from a competitor and investment standpoint and I think in the current environment anyone who builds a new car to non FIA spec is missing the point of where historic racing is going and clearly doesnt want to race at great circuits like Spa.

Why should everyone want to do the same thing? Isn't constructing a car that complies with some different regulations just as valid a project?

sure but I think you will have a car with nowhere to race it in a few years time. If Europe is going FIA it makes sense to keep your car FIA. Have you noticed how non FIA cars remain on the For Sale websites for months and in some cases years but FIA cars sell pretty fast.... Given the money we poor into these toys it makes sense to have a liquid investment. But you are right its a free world and people can build to whatever spec they wish!

Yes Simon, whilst my car is not required to have FIA papers it would most probably meet the requirement. But that isn't really my point. I'm suggesting that just because a car appears to be a "hot rod" it too will probably comply with FIA regs and as such you can't use that as a criteria for driving standards.

Certainly the point may be that the use of fibreglass panels as opposed to original bodywork makes contact cheaper and thus may encourage it but that is up to the CoC and the drivers not the car itself.

So, the 70's series is not for "hot rods" but for FIA homologated cars. Ergo the same requirements apply for thaem as for the App K races.

sure but I think you will have a car with nowhere to race it in a few years time.

I doubt that very much...

is that in the eyes of a casual spectator or soneone who is putting their own money into these cars? I only ask because I think you will find that those with non FIA cars would be very keen to sell whereas those with FIA like Zef et co are happy to keep theres - that should tell you something.....
mind you if you want to buy a hot rod you have a perfect market, complete oversupply!!!

hmm . . .heated comment . . . as for value, we all know our budgets and have to live with them, I didnt build my car to sell, but hopefully it will to me at least prove to be a worthwhile investment.

2 of my first three races where red flaggeed due to, shall we say 'over enthusiastic driving' fortunately I was no where near the incidents and cam away unscathed

There will always be somewhere to race what ever car and spec you have but I believe the more prestigious locations (ie GP circuits and those well maintained and historic ones) will become less viable for the less prestigious series.

saloons, I think are in the position of being the most accessible and the most esily recognised, therefore you get a very broad mix, whilst this is healthy it is also leaving the series open to broad interpretation, the HRSR and Top Hat I think represent accessibility to both ends of the spectrum, it'll be interesting to see how things develop . . . .the HRSR spent a long time getting any credibility and recognition as a historic series, I believe theyre in danger of losing some of that if they dont put a kurb on modern developement. even if its not FiA spec a happy medium has to be found.

as for me, I'd rather have one race a year against similar cars than 6 a year trailing round at the back being overtaken by plastic clones !

Just a thought on this.

The Lotus Cortina (the original) was a lightened "modified engined" version of a standard car. In other words a special. Now taking the point it seems to me that there is no technical difference between a manufacturer building a special to meet the regs any more than a private individual does.

Some of us could do with looking at the Supersaloons thread. The main reason these have essentially died out is because current vehicles are so easy to modify by re chipping etc. The superloon racer doesn't have to bother anymore. But we surely can't deny that a supersaloon race was as historically important to race car development as a manufacturer special.

So I suggest we take a chill pill and sit back to enjoy watching [tongue in cheek]7/8ths Chevys, Overengined Mk2 Jags and V8 Greyladys [/tongue in cheek] contest the Top Hat races and cars built to the actual FIA regs contest the 70's saloons. Groovy Baby. Yeah! :)

I don't think building a car to FIA or CTCRC regs is any more expensive, in fact it can be a lot cheaper it all depends what you are comparing it with. If for example you were comparing with hot hatchs then yes it would be more expensive but if compared with a freer formula like the old Formula Saloons or even modprods then it can be lot cheaper.

What I'd like to know is why 66 is such a crucial cut off date . . . it seems to coincide with a point in history when cars started being very heavily modified.

The MK1 Cortina Lotus was a homologated production car primarily developed for competition (Like the Alfa GTA as well) but wasnt really that different to the road car whereas by 67 and the MK2 Lotus Cortina the car was a complete racer baring little mechanical resemblance to the road car, likewise the Escort, and later the Capri, why is this ? I can only assume the regs changed . . . .

as for prep costs building an FiA car is cheaper IMHO as I've personally restored original equipment as opposed to throwing it away and buying new modern race equipment

What I'd like to know is why 66 is such a crucial cut off date . . . it seems to coincide with a point in history when cars started being very heavily modified.

Possibly the regs changed at about that time. Group 2 came along but that relied on standard panels and allowed wider wheels etc. So the Alfa GTA lightweight fr'instance was developed to overcome the weight penalty suffered by an all steel car.

The MK1 Cortina Lotus was a homologated production car primarily developed for competition (Like the Alfa GTA as well) but wasnt really that different to the road car whereas by 67 and the MK2 Lotus Cortina the car was a complete racer baring little mechanical resemblance to the road car, likewise the Escort, and later the Capri, why is this ? I can only assume the regs changed . . . .

I think you'll find you've got the Cortina thing round the wrong way. The Mk2 had a standard 1600E bodyshell (a roadcar) with the Lotus Ford twink 1600 engine and it was a road car. The Mk1 had lightweight panels and special suspension (the A frame later dropped).

The Escort was built in various guises but the regs at the time allowed the manufacturer use a "standard" block and build it with high spec internals (Group 2), change the induction, move anciliaries and change the suspension etc. Hence the Broadspeed Escorts. However the engine size was limited by the road car capacity which at that time was 1600cc so the largest Escort engine in group 2 was probably 2.1 litres.

The Capri was used by Ford because it came with a larger engine as standard (2.3, 2.6 and finaly 3.0) than the Escort but it was never intended to be Ford's competition car. It just happened that way because BMW developed a special in the shape of the 2800 CS lightweight. This of course later became the Batmobile 3.0s. The final engine capacity was 3.4 litres from the Cosworth GAA engine which used the Essex block.

as for prep costs building an FiA car is cheaper IMHO as I've personally restored original equipment as opposed to throwing it away and buying new modern race equipment

Building a race car from scratch is never cheap and the regs don't usually dictate the cost. Its more to do with the materials used as you say. My car runs all standard panelling, suspension configuration, glass etc. Yours has (or is allowed) lightweight materials (which complies with App K). My engine has some specially made internals but must retain the standard number of carbs.

I dread to think how much it really cost me to develop it and I haven't finished yet. However it is built to Group 1 (or Group 1.5 as run at Spa etc.).

I think you'll find you've got the Cortina thing round the wrong way. The Mk2 had a standard 1600E bodyshell (a roadcar) with the Lotus Ford twink 1600 engine and it was a road car. The Mk1 had lightweight panels and special suspension (the A frame later dropped).

On a pedantic note, the Mk2 Lotus predated the 1600E. The 1600E was introduced in October 1968, a few months after the introduction of the crossflow engines & more than a year after the Mk2 launch. The 1600E was basically a GT with Lotus suspension & unique trim. I'm not sure whether the Lotus shell differed from standard. Was there a Cortina equivalent of the Escort Type 49 shell?

The Mk1 only used aluminium panels for a short time. I'm not sure of the timing, but I suspect the ally panels went at around the same time they reverted to leaf spring rear suspension. Probably around the same time the GT got anti-tramp bars; I had an early GT without the anti-tramp bars - axle tramp is fun!

Thanks Dave then it was the 1600GT shell perhaps?

Thanks Dave then it was the 1600GT shell perhaps?

I don't think the GT shell was any different to the rest of them. For the first year of MK2 production the GT was a 1500, using the same pre-crossflow engine as the MK1 (for my money, the best version of the Kent - smoother & fmore free-revving than the 1600).

Yes that's what my point was. Unlike the original Mk1 Lotus the Mk2 was a standard shell etc. with a special engine.

Yes that's what my point was. Unlike the original Mk1 Lotus the Mk2 was a standard shell etc. with a special engine.

Just a GT with a Lotus engine & lower, stiffer suspension, it appears. The Mk2 GT was also less different from the mainstream cars than the Mk1. I had an early Mk1 GT, which was, I think, at the time of its introduction, the only Cortina with a remote-change gearbox, it had a braking system which as far as I can recollect was unique to the GT, the track control arms were forged, 'export' items not used on any other UK models. The Mk2 GT was more like the bog-standard car.

Phew, glad we sorted that one out. What was this thread about?

:p

1966 introduced a new version of the Appendix J Groups that were relevant to saloons. It was the point at which Group 3 became the GT category rather than the category that had previously embraced saloons modified beyond Gp 2 regs. The then new Appendix J included Group 5 (to which the British Saloon car championship ran in 66 and which was mechanically fairly free but still restrictive on "original" bodywork) and Group 6 (which was intended for sports prototypes but ended up catering for saloon rally cars with non-original lightweight panels). I believe 1966 Appendix J saw the introduction of the minimum production quantity of 5000 in one year for Group 1. We all know all the major players (Lotus Cortina, Cooper S etc) fully met that dont we.....ahem.
Someone recently asked me how many standard production Alfa GTAms were produced with wide arches. The question was relevent to 2005 roadgoing saloon regs in sprints! Nothing changes.......

Thanks for that, I believe its the first time someone has clearly told me what I'd guessed. ;)

So we can say that the old Classic Touring Cars championship ran to App J Group 5 and this included Porsche 911s etc. I'm still convinced that the Group 5 regs allowed standard bodywork (in terms of dimensions) but lightened panels.

At that time (I think) Group 2 allowed standard materials but wider bodywork (additional 100mm overall) hence the wide arches on the GTAm. ;) This then led to the more sophisticated cars and thus we ended that period of the regs with the wide arch Escorts and Capris and of course the BMWs.

glad to see TOP HAT's are back at combe at easter alomg with CLOTH CAP?

flippen excellent racing last year!

anybody know what "a taste of sebring" is and what sort of machinery we'll expect to see????

Problem is things changed within the Groups over the years. Group 5, which the BSCC ran to in 66/7/8 (9?) was freer mechanical mods than Group 2 but the same bodywork regs I think - so a Lotus Cortina with alloy panels already homologated in Group 2 had them but a car that didnt have them homologated couldnt fit them. I think the Cooper S was in the latter position.
The 911 series was homologated with the sort of liberal attitude to rear seat room as was later shown towards MX7 in Group 1 and XJS in Group A. The 912 was group 1, the 911S was Group 3 but the 911T was in Group 2 and could then run in Group 5 to as high a spec as any 911S.
Initially Group 2 required standard inlet manifold (hence split Webbers and the 68 Monte controversey with the Cooper S) but by the middle 70s inlet was free in Group 2. I also think lightweight doors, bonnet and boot became freely allowed in Group 2 at some point, to level the homolgation playing field, but then was withdrawn (I think in 1971). My brain hurts...
Why did I throw out nearly all my paperwork from that period when I got married???

I believe the idea of bringing as much as possible makes and types together for this series in first instance looks interesting, but will not work in reality.

Hmmm, you had a 50/50 chance ;)

FIA is the way to go in my opinion. Rigorously, and I mean rigorously, enforced. No allowing people to get away with technically incorrect cars (read: cheating) just because of who they are and how many cars they have brought along to the race meeting. Oh, and Dunlop L or M sections tyres for everyone.

Gixxer try here

www.tophatracing.co.uk

Cloth Cap is definately on as I am racing my Merlyn Mk6a in it! Its a great meeting at a great circuit. With the added bonus of spectators (who admittedly dont realize that they are watching FIA cars in the main but I guess you cant have everything!!)
Glad to see Slippery diff is on my wavelength re FIA, its curious how historic racers are more or less all in favour of going FIA....
Spirirt of Sebring is any car raced at Sebring. It opens up a large cross section and speed differential - Lola T70's at one end and Alfa Giulia Supers at the other. I have to say I find this a little scary. Sadly I have sold my Super but always on the look out for an interesting FIA eligible car...

Peter, my point about shells was, as has been detailed already, that post 66 mods started appearing with radically modified suspension geometry and engines, and brakes, ie nothing like a standard road car and drastically altering the charecteristics of the car, something which didnt happen pre66, and as the regs obviously changed again it reverted back to a more standard form when things got out of hand ? (ie your car is fairly standard)

basically to thhe untrained eye the cars look the same but perform completely differently.

as for Cortinas, MK1 Lotus started with a 1200 delux shell, modified by Lotus, by 66 is was the same shell as a GT, the early and late (pre and aerflow) cars differed. The MK2 Cortina Lotus was entirely built by Ford, but race cars where built with radically modified suspension etc, it was used as a test bed for the MK1 Escort.
Interestingly, the works MK1 Lotus Cortina ran with radically modified front suspension in 66, cutting the inner wings out, the rear was heavily tweaked as well.

all in all the cars ran to the relevant regs of the day, I think what needs defining now is what regs you run to, its clear that in some series cars of a group5 style are running pre66 group2

Does anyone have the original regs ? are they available for digestion.. . . I might make a career change into being an eligibility scrutineer :-)

Yep you can get them from the FIA.

I'll have a surf and see what I can find :-)

I think the Top Hat idea of having an FiA class and a sidewinder class is good, althouhg it looks like the take up for pre66 FiA has been good enough to fill grids.

I really hope the Groovy baby series generates the same support, I might even build an Allegro racer :rofl:

Yes but don't get hung up on FIA because App K (which is what we're talking about) only goes to 1974 (ish) and App J Group 1 doesn't fall into that cetegory yet.

Also the new FIA passport rules mean that you can prepare any version of a given model to the same standard as the competion version thus you can use a Cortina 1200 and make it into a Lotus Cortina.

Also the new FIA passport rules mean that you can prepare any version of a given model to the same standard as the competion version thus you can use a Cortina 1200 and make it into a Lotus Cortina.


thats exactly what Lotus did ! ;)

I spent ages looking for a good GT to build my car from, still, at least it has the right chassis No, a huge performance advantage ! :banghead:

I really hope the Groovy baby series generates the same support, I might even build an Allegro racer :rofl:

Good point, was there an homologated Allegro? If so you might have something there. A counterpoint to the Capris and Dollies etc.

Not sure an Allegro ever circuit-raced, but I'm sure I do recall a BL-backed rally version under development, sitting high on tippy-toes on its hydrolastic suspension. Not sure how homologation would work in that case.

Brian Culcheth rallied a Marina Coupe as well, if people wanted to go down the Leyland route.

Now, for an authentic and different touring car, what about a Moskvitch 412? Remember Tony Lanfranchi hurling one round on its bumper corners wrapping up the class wins? The only thing is - I'm not sure that there are any left.

I've just tried to get the homologstion listings up but the FIA website just hangs. I think there is a link posted in one of the thread in this forum. I'll have a search.

Both Allegro and Marina were homologated in Gp2 and works-built cars were rallied (quite successfully in the case of the 1300 Marina-and not entirely against poor opposition, Culcheth winning the class on the 74 1000 Lakes against Saaristo and Hagland in the top Skodas which had, allegedly, titanium rods).

But RACING ??? a joke, right?

Ever rebuilt an Allego gearbox? I did once years ago and never again. It is a horrible piece of engineering and would not last 5 minutes in a racing environment, 70's British Engineering at it's absolute worse and as for the rest of the car Allego or Marina, they were total dogs and anyone who wasted money on preparing one would seriously need a check up from the neck up.

Wasn't the Allegro gear cluster the basis for the optional Lotus 5 speed box (or was that from a Maxi?). Either way sticking with the Ford 4 speed seemed a good bet...
Rumour has it, BL tested the Marina at Bagshot prior to the RAC Rally with an 1800 engine when Ford were there too. A bemused Ford works team decided they didnt need to worry about any opposition from BL and didnt need to help any private entrants enter 1300 BDH (or is it J, wheres that thread..) Escorts, BL then put in a 1300 and did quite well....

The 1500 and 1750 Allegro was the same engine and box as the Maxi and like the Mini shared a common oil wth the engine, never did see the sense in that idea. That 1800TC MArina was a dog as well with that heavy antiquated lump of cast iron way up front and that aweful torsion bar suspension the thing would never handle. I once for my sins stuck an Austin Cambridge diesel engine in a Marina and those skinny little torsion bars really struggled talk about nose down stance. :-)

(this is zefarelly, not tedebear DOH!)
I think anyone who dares race anything made by BL must be certifiable, I mean no one made good quality cars in the early 70's but BL's offerings are nigh on undrivable as well !

I wish I'd kept my MK1 Capri now !

That 1800TC MArina was a dog as well with that heavy antiquated lump of cast iron way up front and that aweful torsion bar suspension the thing would never handle.

We had a couple of 1800 estates as company pool cars. They handled much better than the saloons - not that that's much of a recommendation!

Ahem! SD1, P6 and Dolomite Sprint owners form an orderly queue...

We had a couple of 1800 estates as company pool cars. They handled much better than the saloons - not that that's much of a recommendation!
Better weight distrubuton I guess, bit like a mate of mine used to ride around with a sack of sand in the boot of his TransAm as he reconned it handled better. Did'nt do much for the power to weight ratio though.

Better weight distrubuton I guess,

Stiffer rear springs, maybe front as well.

Rover SDI? The only reason that is an OK car is the Buick engine, the gearbox is toffee and the rear suspension was a joke, OK running to Group A where a Getrag box or whatever can be ftted and the self levelling suspenson binned along with the touque tube but not much fun trying to get them to stay together if the rules do not allow these components to be changed. I see enough of them limp off the track wth broken gearboxes etc when I was dong the ModProds as it was never desiigned to take the touque and power in race guse, . Those that do hold together rebuld very regularly and don't use 5th gear. As for the Dolomite I remember it was a female dog of an engine to work on esecially if the cylinder head decided to stick on, the Stag was the same only twice as bad as it had two Dolly heads what a dog that was.

Would a Ford Escort be a competitive Groovy Baby car and if so can you have a BDA engined mark 1 and still be eligible for FIA events or would it have to be a twin cam?

A Mark 1 0r 2 RS 2000 in Group 1 guise or a Mexico. Failing that you'd need a Mark 1 1300GT or a mark 2 RS 2000 to Group 2 spec.

I'm working from memory here though. However the twink wasn't homologated in Groups 1 or 2.

was the BDA engine ever homogolated for racing or was it just rallying? The Mexico had a normal 1600 engine in it rather than a t-c am? And were they as competitive as Lotus cortina's were in there day? I am only interested in teh best model i can get FIA papers for..

Just to remind you.

The FIA passport stops at 1974 so it would have to be a Mk1 Escort and the RS 1600 wasn't raced only rallied.

I had assumed it would be a mark 1 - but which is the fatses FIA eligble variant, were BDA's in time for 74 or would it be a twin cam? And by 74 were they being outclassed and if so by what? Were the Mark 1 Capri's quicker (I know a different class but presumably heavier so round all but the long circuits a trade off)?

I stand corrected if you look at this (http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jong/Races/1972%20Monza.html) you'll find a couple of RS1600s in the ETCC which was Group2 in 1973.

thanks for that link - it makes interesting reading, Capri 2600 seemed the ones to beat in the 72/73 period. Presumably they are a lot more expensive to build as there are less shells around than Escorts

thanks for that link - it makes interesting reading, Capri 2600 seemed the ones to beat in the 72/73 period. Presumably they are a lot more expensive to build as there are less shells around than Escorts

Well in 72/73 the Capri ruled the class. However even then the cars were very sophisticated. Without wishing to dampen your enthusiasm I reckon to source and build a Group 2 Capri/Escort or indeed any car in that class will need a budget of around $80k. For a BMW you will be looking at twice that amount. An example would be the need to manufacture "plastic" rear springs. ;)

A 2600 RS engine (which was bored to 2900) will be pretty scarce so allow $20K just for sourcing and rebuilding.

You may recall the original FAMI car that ran in the BSCC and the FIA Touring Cars races at Spa last year.

Looking at a Mk1 Escort the BDA engine will be more readily available but not cheap. The car can be sourced quite easily. So your budget should be around $40k.

A Group 1 Mk1 Escort built up and fully prepared and competitive will set you back around $20k.

A Capri probaly $30k.

Food for thought though and as you can see from the results the Escort was competitive in its class and now with the developments of the Pinto the Group 1 version is a seriously good proposition.

If you are at Castle Combe come and talk to us.

Yup I will be although in the Cloth Cap rather than the Top Hat
It all gets a bit chaotic there but I will definately try and come and chat- presumably a BDA Escort should be very quisk as I believe BDA's are good for 220 bhp

The Mexico had a normal 1600 engine in it rather than a t-c am?

It was a standard 1600 crossflow, but homologated at 1601cc, arrived at by taking top limit on bore & stoke rather than mid-tolerance. Apart from being useful for competition purposes, it meant that when I used my Mexico road car for business I could claim mileage at the over-1600 rate!

what power can builders get out of these engines now (given the twinkies vary between 165 bhp for a tame one to 185 for a 10 lap screamer engine)
and what i sthe homogolated weight?

You should look up the homolgation certificate which you'll need to race anyway. Failing that go to CTCRC (http://www.csccgb.co.uk/pages/tech_regs/pdfver/2004-12-31%202005%20CG1TCC%20Regulations%20V2%20Final(web).pdf) where they have the group 1 regs in pdf format. You'll find the weights in there.

I dont know the regs you are all looking at but:
Twin Cam was homologated in FIA Group2 (1000 off) before the end of 1968.
BDA was homologated in Gp2 before end of 1970 (first car ran on RAC rally 1970)
Alloy block BDA (G?) was homologated in Gp2 Escort 72 or 73 as evolution (sure 2 ran on 72 RAC Rally including winner Clark but I also recall problems arising with engine mounting bolts on 73 1000 Lakes arising from the "new" block).
I have definitive (ie final version) RS2000 Homologation papers (Gp 1 and 2) if anyone has questions. What I dont understand is how RS2 can be competitive in racing under true Gp1 - it wasnt in period, only in rallying or events like Tour of Britain. Are these regs the "Group One and a Half" that BTCC ran to?

thanks Anuauto
this is where I get confused - al the competition history seems to concentrate on rallying but they were active in racing and to show my ignorance I need to know what the homogolation weights etc.. are for the racing spec rather than the rallying one. I have to say I am pretty scared by the build costs being bandered around - maybe cheaper to stay Appdx K!!!

Good point not only BTCC but the Spa 24hrs too. But the CTCRC does apply the homologated weights for its regs (it certainly corresponds with my homologation cert).

We discussed the Group 2 1840cc BDA (ETCC) escorts earlier. The RS 2000 uses the Pinto and that engine does have good development oportunities.

To run in Group 1 they had to build 5000(?) cars so the Twink/RS1600 won't meet the regs. The RS 2000 does.

In the 2000cc class the car to have used to be the Dolomite Sprint but the RS 2000 is seen as a more viable proposition. That is in 70's style. The RX7 of course blows them both away.

the weights on teh website though are not the official FIA ones which is really what I was after... I think I need to chat with Marcus Pye to get official chapter and verse or alternatively does anyone know a good prepper for FIA Escorts??

I have to say I am pretty scared by the build costs being bandered around - maybe cheaper to stay Appdx K!!!

What a lot of people think when they look at a Group 2 car is that it has wider wheels and a racier engine. In fact (and I need to use my memory here) the final RS3100 Capri had a deviously designed "multi-link" rear suspension system (developed by Broadspeed in 1970), water and oil coolers in the rear wheel arches/rear valance. Dry sumped oil; system pumped from the rear of the car. The engine moved to a lower centre of gravity, radiator slanted to give more under bonnet space. The injection system was specially designed, lightweight panels, a Cosworth GAA 3.4 litre engine (very rare these days) and loads more.

That is why to build one will cost those limbs. You can of course just do the wide wheels and spiced up engine but then you won't get that passport for it.:)

the weights on teh website though are not the official FIA ones which is really what I was after... I think I need to chat with Marcus Pye to get official chapter and verse or alternatively does anyone know a good prepper for FIA Escorts??

I think you'll find they are the homologated weights. And yes you can meet the guy at Castle Combe.

Same FIA homologated weights should apply to any FIA motorsport - both racing and rallying? The RS2000 also had the ZF box and the Holbay 16valve head homolgated into Group 2 before the end of 74. These heads are used now in Post Historic rallying (to 31.12.74.) and are still made (Connaught Competion Engines now I think after Warrior disappeared - the original Holbay cam cover had to be remade to satisfy some scrutineers). They are said to have more torque than any BDA and as much power but the Pinto block is a weight/handling penalty. "Modern" free formula Escorts use the head with a Millington Diamond alloy block (not "period").

Just for clarity the CTCRC set the weights based upon Homolgated weights for individual models so whilst a 1600cc car may show as (say) 840Kg this would have been derived from an homologation cert for a popular model. All the manufacturers would aim for similar if not the same weights thus the regs will show what the championship requires. As stated my Homologation cert and the weights listed correspond. They sre the homologated weights for the original championship.

But why not buy the cert you get both Group 1 and Group 2 details.

Same FIA homologated weights should apply to any FIA motorsport - both racing and rallying? The RS2000 also had the ZF box and the Holbay 16valve head homolgated into Group 2 before the end of 74. These heads are used now in Post Historic rallying (to 31.12.74.) and are still made (Connaught Competion Engines now I think after Warrior disappeared - the original Holbay cam cover had to be remade to satisfy some scrutineers). They are said to have more torque than any BDA and as much power but the Pinto block is a weight/handling penalty. "Modern" free formula Escorts use the head with a Millington Diamond alloy block (not "period").

For group 1 OTOH you have to use the original castings.

What I dont understand is how RS2 can be competitive in racing under true Gp1 - it wasnt in period,
Well one factor is the development work done by Roland Hayes of HT racing on the Pinto engines.

We had a guy out in the ModProds (name excapes me) who ran a Mk 1 1600 BDA and tried hard but it could never hold a candle to the RS2000 and he adventurely converted it to that spec and never looked back and save a pile of dough.

Those telephone numbers banded about here seem alarmingly and off puttingly high, I am sure engines can be built for far less than the sums quoted here, if not build a Camaro I can put together an all steel engine for well under five grand that will really haul coal.

Those telephone numbers banded about here seem alarmingly and off puttingly high, I am sure engines can be built for far less than the sums quoted here, if not build a Camaro I can put together an all steel engine for well under five grand that will really haul coal.

The point about the numbers is that to comply with the FIA regs means you have to build it as original. In other words if it had a Cosworth GAA engine you have to have a Cosworth GAA engine. Phone Swindon up and ask them how much to source one and re build it.

Then the car must comply with the homologation cert.

That's why even mine would be expensive to build from scratch (I've spent the dosh but in small bits over a number of years and its only now getting somewhere near competitive).

Fair comment Peter for an ultra rare GAA that s like me tryng to emulate Frank Gardeners all alloy bg block Camaro (only even worse as at lease alloy big blocks can be sourced at a price) but surely not for a Pinto based or Essex based engine.

Well the original RS2600 was a Cologne engine and they stroked it to 2900 so you can tell you'd need some special bits for that. Then there's all the structural and mechanical mods so I don't think I'm too far off in my figures. As a f'rinstance, how much is a full house Healey 3000 race engine?

The RS 3100 had the GAA and that is big money.

But that is Group 2.

As you say an RS 2000 to Group 1 wouldn't be to much (I'm talking in relative terms) but I'd still allow £20K. The Capri being that much more difficult would be more expensive.

Was'nt the Mk1 3100 an Essex engined car or was that Group 1?

The 3100 was Essex engined. To build it as the Group 2 car Cosworth selected the necessary number of blocks (1000 ahem) and that was the only bit that was original.

It wasn't eligible for Group 1 though because they didn't build enough of them.

Thats a pity, mind you was'nt it only a 60thou overbore on the standard engine bore, was there much else that would benifit it performance wise over a standard 3litre model.

Well one factor is the development work done by Roland Hayes of HT racing on the Pinto engines.

But not in true FIA Group 1. Anyone who got more than about 160 flywheel bhp was not playing straight. Thats why an RS2 was not a competitive Gp 1 race car and not even in BTCC "Gp1 and a half". Neil Brown was about the best Pinto Gp1 builder in period? - and FIA GP1 regs mean any of Roland's later work would not be relevant. (I know all about him from chasing class competitors in hillclimbs in more recent years who had 30 more bhp than me!) So you all are not talking FIA Gp1?

Sorry if I have this wrong but I thought if cars for the Top Hat were built to CTCRC Group 1 rules as laid dow in their regulations they would be elligible. If that is the case then camshafts, porting, chamber design, piston design etc are as I read it free, if so Rolands magic could be worked within these parameters and I would reckon even with the 2 choke carb restriction would get close to 190+bhp. If this is not the case I would say my Camaro I am putting the finishing touches to and indeed I would imagine, half the field would be inellgible as I have not used Group 2 specified camshafts and internal components. Just the use of a Roller cam and followers on a 2 litre Pinto would add a sizable increase in bhp and I doubt these components were available then in Group 1.

I think we're at cross purposes and CTCRC "Gp1" regs cant be anything like true FIA Gp1. FIA Gp1 for an RS2 was (and is, because it cant be amended now): twin 44IDFs with the one choke size specified at the time and the awful Gp1 airbox, WR40 cam (good then but nothing like HT1 or anything wilder he may use in a pure racing engine), 1.75in inlet 1.50in ex valves into otherwise standard head with no other machining or polishing whatsoever, std exh manifold. Most never gave the claimed possible 160 even with blueprinting?

We are waaaay off topic here. Another thread methinks.

New thread here (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65746)