IRL Toyota GP in 2003

Many of you laughed when I suggested a few months ago that the Toyota Long Beach GP would be an IRL race in 2003.

What do you think now?

As Mark C., at Autoracing1 mentally masturbates over what CART should do to survive, it is clear that the team owners have choosen.

Mr. Forsythe is supporting CARTs stock price by buying on every dip.
Even if he gets control of CART, what will be left?

It looks like there will be one series again, only TG will be in charge.


Kurt Maxwell
MaxSport
Indianapolis,IN

I think the Toyota GP of Long Beach will remain on the CART schedule with all the other races on the schedule.(although the 2002 schedule has not been released).

CART will make an effort to run the schedule with whatever engines they can get. Before any of the races can be scooped by the IRL, the issue of CART contracts would have to be settled. Even then, I think the IRL should approach the CART tracks with caution. There's no need to give Cleveland a chance to kick dirt in your face again.:laugh:

The current IRL cars will not nor can they run a road course in their current layout. The enignes do not have a strong enough lower end in the main bearings, rod bearings and conrods to make any torque on the low end of the rpm band. The current gearboxes are solely designed for oval racing only. They are not designed to provide acceleration from first gear for 75 laps. The chassis are not designed for road racing. They are left turn only biased in balance and aerodynamics.

When CART switches from the ovals to road course they don't just swap the wings. The chassis is several inches shorter. The weight bias is moved forward, the gear box is a road race unit with much stronger gear sets and clutch. The brake sets are huge compared to oval units and are not allowed to be carbon disks as the oval units are.

Its not just a matter of using the same car on different types of tracks.

Also consider this, only Kelley Racing in the IRL actually made money this year. Every other team lost money to campaign the season. Many were one crash away from not appearing at the next race because they had no back up chassis. This was easy to see at Indy when Ganassi sold three chassis to teams that otherwise would not have made the race. There is no way that the majority of the IRL teams could afford to go road racing at all. Most cannot afford to do what they are doing now.

You are so right,KC. What was I thinking?

Of course there won't be a CART by then, so I think you will have plenty of teams. Plus a somewhat revised formula.

Think that Pook will want to keep Toyota as a sponsor of his race?

I would bet on it.

Kurt Maxwell
MaxSport/Motorsports Marketing
Indianapolis,IN. USA

CART may fall apart after this year over this engine deal. If it does they will lose this fan for domestic open wheel racing I am afraid. I do watch the IRL races on occasion but am not enamored of modern oval racing as I believe the best oval racing in the world takes place on dirt. Even Indy has not held the fascination for me as Long Beach or Houston. I have no trouble admitting I am a road racing fan first, but I think the IRL is far too restrictive.

If CART does crash at the end of the year, what will this do to a legion of Tony George's IRL teams. If the majority of the CART teams move to the IRL they will effectively destroy the viability of the small teams by outengineering them, outmanning them, and outdriving them. Is Tony willing to toss aside 3/4s of his current grid to make room for CART? In two years CART teams have destroyed the competition at Indy for one race, in a chassis they get minimal testing in, with an engine that is unknown to them. What happens when Michael Andretti, Paul Tracy, Kenny Brack, Jimmy Vasser, Gil deFerran, and Helio Castroneves start showing up for every race? Icons like Al Under Jr. and A.J. Foyt's team will be blown out of the water. They don't deserve this.

Is that Tony George's ultimate reward for loyalty?

P.S. I am sorry if I sounded patronizing, it was not my intent.

You are right,KC. TG can't really afford to be loyal to his lesser IRL teams. If CART teams come to IRL and/or there is a reunification that sees 26 or 28 spots available, in one series, then some guys are going away.

While many IRL teams may be casualties, there is only room for one Indycar Series.


KM

KC-Sorry if I did not make it clear that I am predicting an IRL LBGP that includes all of the current CART teams and stars.

No problem at all.

It is a shame that some sort of reconciliation cannot happen. I would love to see a dual championship with Indy being the centerpiece. I think the rivalry between the two would be immense, Indy would mean a hell of a lot more, and all the fans could be satisfied.

OK-so I was off by a year!!!!!

So lets say CART folds after 2003. What CART teams move the IRL? Haas, 1 car for Fernandez, one car for Rahal? There are not too many healthy teams in CART right?

Some of KC's points still hold true though; the IRL cars will require huge modification to run on street courses like long beach. Their current engine formula will see them crawl around the course even with chassis and gear box changes.

I don;t think the death of CART is a foregone conclusion by any means,a lthough it's mroe likely than it was when this was originally written.

The point about existing IRL teams being squeezed out has proved quite true, even with only half the CART grid having moved over. Keeley and Panther are the only truly competitive established teams.

The new generation (2003-2005) IRL cars do feature road-style gearboxes, and can be fuelled form either side, which, theoretically, makes them road-ready. not sure if there are any other details I've overlooked.

The thing is, the IRL's original fanbase is already quite alienated by the changes recently in terms fo cost and manufacturers - the addition of road courses might be the final straw. A lot fo CART die-hards will ahve toruble forgiving Tony George for his treatment of them. So who would watch the IRL if CART died.

And I'm pretty sure some of Patrick, Rocketsports and PK would be abel to switch across, if need be.

really if everyone is losing money and no one ssereis has a good grip on fans and viewers- why the hall are they alive or still trying?
They have killed themselves, so when the collapse of these things happens and evry one crumbles, the indy 500 will happen with 2 year old machinery no one will really car and in 2005 IRL/CART will come together in some new form. I like the Name CHampcars, and Indycar is a given, so what we would get is some horrible something.
call them F5000 again, or Fzero and bring inthe nintendo crowd.

There is not enough room for both IRL and CART in the world of North American open wheel auto racing. American sporting fans have seen this with professional football and basketball. The USFL the ABA are two sporting series crushed by their competition. This is plainly happening to CART and all the urban myths about Bernie Ecclestone and rock concerts will remian that. CART is losing oil pressure and gears and they are just going to ride the dam thing until it gives out - which looks to be very soon

Which is good for open wheel racing in my opinion. Brings over any remaining teams and there is a unified series. In 2005, 2006 add Long Beach, Road America etc... And presto! you have a fine series for all you road racing fans. Just don't add to many road races or it will become another trainig ground for F1 like CART

"Which is good for open wheel racing in my opinion. Brings over any remaining teams and there is a unified series."

I didn't know your idea of unifying things was not adding two or more things, but effectively leaving one alone...

Kurt,

I think it is 50-50. CART started the year with $89M in the bank. Their disclosures admit expected losses of $70-78M. They are in the process of setting a pair of $20M law suits with John Judd and Joe Heitzler, which will drain around $10M more. All that doesn't leave much cash in the kitty for 2004.

Thus 2004 is to put it mildly at risk.

So to see IRL at Long Beach, with Toyota, Marlboro and others promoting is an increasingly likely scenario.

I for one hope that the IndyCar series do not end up at Long Beach. If they are to add a couple of non-oval races, I personally would like to see Road America and Watkins Glen (or some other real racetrack), rather than some street circuit, even if it happens to be one with a great history.

That's just my two cents though :)

I think only if CART died would the IRL get to go to tracks like Long Beach. While there is "termoil" I can't see that that current heavy investers (eg. Forsythe) would let it die. IRL will have to make substantial changes in order to do road courses, but I don't see why they couldn't theoretically do it. I don't think IRL cars are very well suited for road courses, but that doesn't mean they couldn't do it.

Another substanial risk: We all know guys like De Faren, Dixon, etc. can drive on road courses. We know that Al jr. no longer can. What about Hornish and Fisher? The IRL relies on these people as the center of their marketing stratagy. What happends if they stink on those tracks?

Toyota is still the title sponsor of the Atlantics. Clearly they're still important and involved with CART. Toyota was not a good engine supplyer for CART. They had one year where they produced a good engine. They also tried to muscle CART around when it came to the new engine spec. CART should have listened to their good allies - Ford and Honda and gone with a smaller displacement turbocharged engine.

I fail to see why the engine thing would kill CART. Worst case scenerio Ford will be more than happy to be the exclusive supplyer of engines. IMO CART has the best top level series engine package. Want 1200 hp? Done. Or want to run 1500 miles? Done.

I think Tony George will give up on the IRL and try to market an international knitting circuit before the IRL takes over Long Beach.

The comments that the IRL might take over Long Beach came from the promoters of Long Beach saying that if Cart went under, they'd be interested in taking the IRL....and the IRL said they'd want Long Beach... all if Cart went away. Right now the only ones that seem especially confident of Cart's demise are the ones that either have an interest in it or have as much contact with the racing community as Chris Pook does with Tony George.

Cart will be completely different, and it is a big time of worrying because there is a HUGE gag order at the moment, so even if there was good news they wouldn't be able to say anything (Derrick Walker's words). They're working as fast as possible to get the buyout in place so that the teams will have the sponsorship necessary for another season - and that is where the main concern is. As for money, yes it will cost a lot of it...but any new buyer will likely have lots of it.

Any guesses on how many million...er...hundreds of million....billion? Tony George has spent to completely finance the IRL over the years. I'd hazard to bet it would make the amount Cart's spent this year seem like pocket change.

So Jay, what do you do in the motorsport community up there in Ottawa that makes you so "in the know",eh?

Remember, attack the post, not the poster. Thank you. - DF

One has to look no father than CART's balance sheet, take CART on it's word about the numbers, and you'll realize CART cannot operate even to Christmas.

At this point CART's future beyond Fontana is 100% dependent upon a Billionaire foolishly wasting his money. But of course Billionaires don't become that by wasting their money. So the chances are zilch.

Toyota is the money and promotion machine behind the LBGP. Dover Downs not Pook is the promoter. Both Toyota and DD are heavily involved with the IRL and neither wants to see the LBGP go away.

IMO Atlantics will be bought by TRD and moved to another sanctioning body (IMSA, IRL, GARRA, or SCCA). At least that would make sense.

Well, the 'foolish' likes of Bernie Ecclestone (not my preferred option), Gerry Forsythe, Paul Gentilozzi and Craig Pollock are all interested, and I'm sure someone will work something out. If CART died it would be a tragedy for racing fans as it offers something unique,a nd ideally we'd see the IRL become much mroe focused on small teams again.

Jay,

no matter how much TG spend in the past to promote IRL, the problem is, Tg still has a lot of money, Cart doesn't: this is the difference!

About IRL cars to road courses, I've heard that adapting chassis, bodywork and suspension will cost no more than 80,000 $ per car.
Is anyone informed abou the cost of fitting gearbox and engine?

I seem to recall reading that a full road-course adaption of an IndyCar would be a one-time cost of around $125,000-$150,000.

Thanks Rustyfan,
well, if your digits are (as I think) close to reality: it results that adaptation cost are not that impressive as someone claim in the previous posts; considering that a new normal car cost more or less $300,000, and that most big teams normally replace all their cars with new ones each year, we can conclude that ALL of the present IRL teams (maybe with the only exception of Hemelgarn) can afford the adaptation of the cars.
What still remains to charge is the cost of added races (if there isn't any replacement)

Originally posted by BootsOntheSide
Well, the 'foolish' likes of Bernie Ecclestone (not my preferred option), Gerry Forsythe, Paul Gentilozzi and Craig Pollock are all interested, and I'm sure someone will work something out. If CART died it would be a tragedy for racing fans as it offers something unique,a nd ideally we'd see the IRL become much mroe focused on small teams again.

BootsOntheSide,

My point is Ecclestone isn't foolish. Therefore he will not buy CART. The others do not have the means to run CART even if they can make an offer. So CART will die.

But is it really a trajedy? It was a trajedy when CART and IMS split and the War for OW in the United States broke out. And it was a trajedy that both sides waged a destructive scorched earth campaign dragging down OW.

The result is NASCAR became a monster, uncontested ruler, and now masters of $700M for hi-tech ex-CART sponsor NexTel.

CART's passing may well prove a blessing for OW in America, should it start to heal, and combine the remnant fan bases. It may yet give NASCAR a true competitor. It surely will be the last best chance for OW in the United States.

For Canada and Mexico it seems to have been fools gold. And for them it is a trajedy. For Europe it was a dream that never was.

(For the Europeans I hope F1 learns the lesson of CART and NASCAR; stay focused on your primary market the EU. Races outside that market simply raise your cost and lower your value to sponsors. Global sports of any kind is fools gold)

Well, F1 has raced at Brazil, Australia and Japan for a few years, and also did Argentina. In any case, it's not comparable. F1 is a lot more global than CART or NASCAR at the moment. F1's threat is the day Ecclestone dies or leaves. Then they should take example of CART, and not leave it without a new "dictator".

Jordi,

I'm sure you are aware of the so-called "cash crisis" in F1. This is the falling value of side pod and wing signage.

In the past sponsors rarely asked whether they got a return or whether a target market was reached. Most fans got their race coverage in magazines, so locale of the races mattered less.

But no more. Japan may be the price to pay for Toyota and Honda to participate, but Brazil, Australia and even Canada and the US cost F1 more than they return these days. And they return only to FOM not to the teams.

F1 is having to intervene to make the racing viable for the teams. Jordan and Minardi are far from healthy. Like CART what benefits the sanctioning body's bottom line is not what helps the teams.

F1 needs to recognize that even for US sponsors like Marlboro, Budweiser, HP/Compaq, and Sun it is not the US division which is writing the checks, but the European one. The EU is the sponosr base, the TV fan base, and the target market.

F1 however is able to survive stupidity of the leadership and internal bickering of the team owners better than CART because there is no bigtime NASCAR type racing alternative for Europe. So Mosely can do stupid things like attempt to replace European races with ones in China, Russia and Bahrain -obsteniously for the remaining Tobacco companies. But of course he makes those non-Tobacco sponsor Euros harder to come by.

CART faced domestic competition whcih F1 does not. And it was in that sponsor competition which killed CART and keeps F1 from getting much of a foothold.

This is what I mean by F1 learning the CART and NASCAR lesson

long beach is one of best weekends on the racing calander.
if cart can't get it together......and the irl is not going street racing...then.....watch for neckcar to make a move.

if not the nextel cars..then ncbs, trucks...or...?

How bout ALMS at Long Beach? There was also talk of moving the F1 USGP back there after the deal at Indy is up.

IRL will take over Long Beach. Toyota (TRD of Torrance California), is the #1 IRL sponsor and promoter of the LBGP.

The LBGP being a USGP was actually proposed by none other than Tony george. He floated the idea a few months back, that there be two USGPs, one at Indy and the other at Long Beach, both with ABC TV. I think that idea could be revived.

The ALMS is a possible fill in for 2004 before the IRL adds road racing or F1 adds a second USGP to replace Canada.

i would love to see the ALMS at longbeach
the 6 hours of LongBeach would rule.
and have a speed gt and speed tc race oh man
I would think ALMs taking over CArts schedule sans oval would be soo cool as CART is kinda flopping like a fish in a dinghy right now. and IRL shold stay on ovals... if they want a road course let them have watkins and sears point like nascar.
if IRL is the last OW series in NA then lets hope it gets done right...the way CART was in the Zanardi years

Originally posted by sgw2
The result is NASCAR became a monster, uncontested ruler, and now masters of $700M for hi-tech ex-CART sponsor NexTel.

CART's passing may well prove a blessing for OW in America, should it start to heal, and combine the remnant fan bases. It may yet give NASCAR a true competitor. It surely will be the last best chance for OW in the United States.
I think you have a rather simplistic view of things here... It's simplistic to think that the IRL can present a strong challenge to NASCAR, or at least that it would be any stronger without CART on the scene. Viewing figures for IRL races, even the Indy 500, are miniscule. Put it this way - I don't see what the IRL can't do now that it could do if CART disappeared.

People here have continually pointed out that oval racing is the main form of US motorsport, right? So how can adding a few road races, such as Long Beach to attract the CART crowd, give anything other than a marginal increase in popularity? People from the US are better qualified than me to comment on the lack of interest in open-wheel over there, but I can't see that it's directly related to "the split". The IRL has the best teams, the best drivers, a couple of big engine manufacturers and the most popular type of racing (ovals). Why is nobody watching?

Originally posted by sgw2
F1 is having to intervene to make the racing viable for the teams. Jordan and Minardi are far from healthy. Like CART what benefits the sanctioning body's bottom line is not what helps the teams.

F1 needs to recognize that even for US sponsors like Marlboro, Budweiser, HP/Compaq, and Sun it is not the US division which is writing the checks, but the European one. The EU is the sponosr base, the TV fan base, and the target market.
F1's money problem is that the private teams can't afford the budgets that the manufacturers can. The solution will be to either bankrupt and dump the private teams or keep them just barely ticking over. Teams like Williams, Ferrari, McLaren, BAR, Toyota, Jaguar and Renault are having very few problems with money. You point out names like Marlboro, Budweiser and HP, but they're small change compared to where the real money comes from - BMW, Fiat, Mercedes, Honda, Ford, etc. Those manufacturers are perfectly happy to drop a few European races in order to further expand the schedule into Asia, for example. Bernie doesn't stick pins in the map to choose races :)

F1 however is able to survive stupidity of the leadership and internal bickering of the team owners better than CART because there is no bigtime NASCAR type racing alternative for Europe.
F1 is a very different beast than other forms of motorsport, for good or bad. Example - I would say that in many individual countries, rally is much more popular than F1. As a whole, though, - globally - rally is dwarfed. F1 is is much, much more of a worldwide sport than US motor racing ever was or ever will be. It's attractive to manufacturers and viewers seem to be more used to neither having drivers nor races from their own country represented. Obviously, though, it helps.