Penske Out

It was just annnounced that Penske is OUT. Really sad is that he will take Gil & Helio with him to IRL. No word about CART, so no Penske entry in CART in 2002. Maybe they will be back @ 2003...

I'm through with Champ Cars. See you at Alex Job Racing.

I'm writing this with tears in my eyes. Penske are one of ym favourite teams and Gil de Ferran is my favourite driver. Sadly as we don't have Sky Sports, I can't watch IRL :(

Well at least this will shake out the fairweather fans.

It will be interesting to what effects transpire over the next week or so.

Will Pook still want to quit his life long contract with DDE?

CART's car count just went down by 2 cars. The IRL's car count just went up by 2 cars.

CART loses a major sponsor, the IRL gains a major sponsor.

Catch my drift?

TEAM PENSKE TO COMPETE IN THE INDY RACING LEAGUE SERIES IN 2002

READING, PA - - Penske Racing, Inc. announced plans today to field two Marlboro Team Penske entries to compete exclusively in all Indy Racing League series races during the 2002 season, including the Indianapolis 500 Mile Race. The cars will be driven by two-time defending CART FedEx Championship Series champion Gil de Ferran and Helio Castroneves, winner of the 2001 Indianapolis 500 Mile Race. Details about the Team's 2002 chassis and engine combination will be released later. Penske Racing, Inc.'s plans do not include participation in any other open wheel racing series during the 2002 season.

"We plan to compete in all Indy Racing League series races in 2002, in addition to the Indy 500. It was a decision made with our principal sponsor based on our collective business interests and objectives for 2002," said Tim Cindric, President, Penske Racing, Inc.

"We have enjoyed Marlboro Team Penske's tremendous successes in the CART series over the years and we have developed special relationships with the CART community," said Ina Broeman, Category Director, Marlboro Racing, Philip Morris U.S.A. "However, since Philip Morris U.S.A. only markets its products within the United States and its territories and our intent is to
communicate with adult smokers who attend races in the United States, we believe that the IRL is more closely aligned with our business interests and objectives for 2002."

Penske Racing is the most successful Indy car racing team in history with 110 race wins, highlighted by a record 11 Indianapolis 500 Mile Race victories, 11 National Championships, and 135 pole positions.


:(

The following is CART's statement in response to Marlboro Team Penske's decision to leave the CART FedEx Championship Series:

"We are disappointed to learn of Marlboro Team Penske's decision to leave the FedEx Championship Series. Both Roger Penske and Marlboro have been long-time supporters of CART and they will be missed. We wish them and their two talented drivers, Gil de Ferran and Helio Castroneves, well.

"The economics of our sport require teams to satisfy sponsors' marketing needs. We believe the CART FedEx Championship Series delivers significant value for sponsor investment as evidenced by the 2.5 million spectators who attended our races in 20 markets around the world in 2001; the recent renewal of our relationship with series sponsor FedEx; our new television agreement with Fox Cable Networks/Speedvision and CBS; the ongoing commitment of race teams such as Target Chip Ganassi Racing, Team KOOL Green and the PacWest Racing Group; and the expansion of our schedule to include races at three new venues - Denver, Mexico City and Montreal - in 2002.

"CART has always enjoyed the loyal support of our owners, sponsors and fans. They are drawn to our fast cars, unique tracks and technological sophistication, as well as to our many world-class drivers. We will maintain their support by offering the same top-quality product we have offered for decades. And we will remain focused on our No.1 objective - growing our sport and the CART brand."


Aren't they somewhat missing the point ??

Seems that's what CART's business model is all about, missing the point.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Liz

"I'm through with Champ Cars."

Don't be that way about it. CART is still going to be worth watching. This only gives you a reason to watch the IRL too if you like Penske so much, like I do. I'm glad he is going, but I wish he had kept at least one car in CART. No need to make it easy for Patrick and Ganassi.

So it isn't the end for CART. It isn't good, but it isn't the end, either. You still have Ganassi and Rahal and Green. And Patrick. And Forsythe. And more. You still have a slate of home and international venues at great places like RA and MO and LB. And Laguna. It is also a big improvement to get away from that awful Detroit race, though now they have NO race close to the capital of the American auto makers. And CART hasn't had a decent race at Nazerath since the Handford has been in use there, so that place is rightfully gone.


You still have (in my view unfortunate) a grid full of international
talent. CART still has alot going for it and I am sure no real fan wants to miss the last season of the awesome too fast turbowonders.
You still have (Penske excluded) the most professional and well funded teams in American motorsports. There is no reason to turn it off just because they lost a team. Sure, it isn't just any team, but it is only one team. Two cars. So now they are down to what 25 or so?

CART's only real problem is it's management team. Everyone knows I don't have much respect for Uncle Joe, and I think CART is going to do better even if they give the job to, well, anyone who speaks plain english. But they had better get someone in there fast who can help them pull their heads out. I think CART now has to view 2002 as a throw away season. There just isn't enough time to get a new cheif in there that can make a real difference before the season begins. It is so late in the game that they are going to have to go into 2002 with what they have, good or bad.


CART is going to have to start thinking about 2003 right now.

And here is when CART can really help themselves. They need to get some engine companies lined up. They need to adopt the IRL chassis now so that they can give Reynard and Lola and maybe Dallara and G-force time to gear up to blow out that many units. This isn't politics. This is nuts and bolts we need hardware kind of talk.

CART needs to get it all put together now for 2003. They have a year and about four months to get the ducks in a row and then we will see what they have.

Of course CART will lose some of their identity by going the IRL route on equipment, but without the engine companies subsidizing the teams, they are going to need cheaper equipment. And the chassis builders are going to be loathe to build two different cars for the same basic engine. They may just not do it. Mass production, baby!This ain't Burger King.

Come on, Liz. You still love champ cars and you know it. You are just cheesed off about Penske, but you will be in front of the tube when they take the first green of the 2002 season and we all know it. No one as passionate as you is going to give up this series. They have cheesed me off too, but i watch every one.

DONT blame CART for Penske leaving, he left because of HIS team, CART has very little to do with it. It is Marlboro wanting to be in Indy because CARTs engines are still intact this year. I dont know why Helio and Gil would want to go, they both suck at oval racing. Helio is good but cant compare to the oval only drivers of IRL. Penske was one of the best teams ive seen and an important part, and I regret ever liking them, for I have no respect for deserters.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jimmyz360

"I dont know why Helio and Gil would want to go, they both suck at oval racing."

Helio is the Indianapolis 500 champion.

Gil beat Indianapolis 500 champion Kenny Brack head to head at Rockingham.


"Helio is good but cant compare to the oval only drivers of IRL."

He is about to get some more oval experience. Maybe that will help.

Well, it wasn't the news that I was expecting. Not at all. But now I'll enjoy watching 34 races instead of 19. I'm a Penske fan. And to avoid being a "deserter", I remain a Penske fan. I mean, my dog's name is Penske. My jacket and my coat are embroidered with the Penske logo. My Zippo lighter is, you guessed it. And I remain a fan of both pilots. That will not waver. So I'm going to watch them compete next season. I haven't watched an IRL race, other than Indy, since 96. I'll take Dr. Austin's word for it that it's a good product now. But any predictions that he may have made concerning Jacques Lazier's upcoming championship hopes have just gone out the window. I'll bet the farm on that.

And I don't blame Roger for this move at all. Marlboro foots the bills, Marlboro calls the shots. It makes perfect marketing sense to me. The Marlboro Man is in it to make as much money through advertising NOW, while he still can. And they don't sell their product in Mexico, Japan, Canada, England, Germany or Australia. But they do sell them in Texas.

But neither am I deserting CART. I'm surely not going to miss a lap. (I guess I'll have to leave that up to SpeedVision). I'm not going to lose interest in Rahal and his boys, in Fernandez or in Vasser. I'm still going to watch the careers of Servia and Dixon blossom. Franchitti and Kanaan are still going to be there. As are my three Canadian countrymen. And CART will continue to be the most competitive open wheel formula on the planet. And the races will continue to be exciting. (At least for one more year).

When I walked away from MIS last summer, it was with a tear in my eye. Thought I'd never be back. But I'm not going to miss a Sunday afternoon in the Irish Hills afterall. Instead of my two annual CART races in Michigan and Detroit, next summer will see my first time at an IRL event, and most likely the Molson Indy Toronto.

This has been a sad day. Roger was a founder of CART, as we all know. I wanted nothing more than for his two world-class drivers to compete against the international field that is CART. At the very least I wanted Gil to take on Mobil1 sponsorship and go for a third consecutive title. But, hey, I live in Canada and don't smoke Marlboros. I smoke Players.

Just wanted to comment on something from CART's statement.
"We believe the CART FedEx Championship Series delivers significant value for sponsor investment as evidenced by...the expansion of our schedule to include races at three new venues – Denver, Mexico City and Montreal – in 2002."
In 2001, CART ran 21 events, not including Rio or Texas. The 2002 schedule lists 19. Explain "expansion".

And a quote from Tony George,
"This is a strong indicator that our vision and plan is the right one for the future of American open-wheel racing and exemplifies the League's stability and growth"
I don't know how to comment on that.

Well, I'm just blabbering on. I need some time for this to sink in, I just found out about it a few minutes ago.

Hate to break it to u Dr. Austin is that look at Gil's points on ovals and u want me to show u reels of them not doing good on ovals. Helio is Indy 500 winner and thats because every IRL driver that was faster than him had something bad happen. So dont count on them to be that good, im pretty sure they can learn, but they are road drivers, thats all the trophys they won, and the races they are good at. They werent in CART for their overwhelming talent in ovals.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by macdaddy

"But now I'll enjoy watching 34 races instead of 19."

heheheheh. Another convert on the way. You are going to like what you see in the IRL. Just give it an honest chance and you will have a good time. We are in the promised land, baby! 34 races! Why are so many people upset that we have so much good racing to enjoy? Have a beer, watch both series and have a good time.



"But any predictions that he may have made concerning Jacques Lazier's upcoming championship hopes have just gone out the window. I'll bet the farm on that."


I isn't necessary to bet the farm. But I will gladly relieve you of a beer when Jacques adds the championship trophy to the Borg Warner one.
Hey, I stuck my neck out early on this one, so i am going to either look like a genius or I am going to be buying alot of beer for people. I stand to lose less if I had bet the house.



"Well, I'm just blabbering on."

Welcome to the internet.

Well good bye and good riddance. If they want to disgrace themselves and Cart to go join that secound rate IRL farce, then I say we don't need them. Leave it to the ones who apreceate what it is to be in a good racing series such as Cart.

Any bets on how long Gil and Helio will last before they are acheing to come back?

I am just a tad pi**ed off about this, I hope that the IRL flops big time but at the moment i dont see that happenning.

Autosport.com's report stated that Gil and Helio are not overjoyed by the move to IRL. Its looks like they are already unhappy, but have to go cos Penske says so.

[i]Originally posted by hakkiman


"Autosport.com's report stated that Gil and Helio are not overjoyed by the move to IRL. Its looks like they are already unhappy, but have to go cos Penske says so. [/B]

Neither one of them was going to cut it in F-1, so they are ungrateful pukes who don't deserve the break they have gotten. Cut them loose and let someone really appreciative and deserving have a chance. We all saw what Jacques Lazier could do with a good car and there are plenty of good young Americans who could step into the Penske ride and go to the front. Phillip Morris America would like it. The fans would like it. We are all waiting for it.

You know, I'm just so sick of it. Young American talent gets pushed out of jobs in their own country by ungrateful foriegners. Go home!

Well if they're not happy can they really be expected to perform to their best?

If they're not at their best Penske would look bad and Marlboro would go from being a championship winning supporter to a no hoper supporter.

Of course that is a worst case scenario but it shows how it can still blow up in their faces.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by paulzinho

"Well if they're not happy can they really be expected to perform to their best?"

Direct them to the airport.


"If they're not at their best Penske would look bad and Marlboro would go from being a championship winning supporter to a no hoper supporter."

Aren't these guys supposed to be professionals? If Gil and Helio are too sissy to stand on it, ship them out. Get some real men in there like Buddy Lazier and Sam. Let the Brazillians drive around in Coyne's wrung out, used up and trashy CART **** and then they can get a taste of the opportunities that most American drivers in CART have had. Maybe then they would see how good they have it. The line to replace them at Penske only goes around the building three times.


"Of course that is a worst case scenario but it shows how it can still blow up in their faces."

Anyone worth a damn would give everything to be a Penske driver. If there are any conserns now, ship the ingrates out and put some wothy and hungry guys in there. No mercy for the primadonnas, baby!

lol...whatever good riddens Roger, good riddens Gil, good riddens Helio! They can crash out of every IRL race they race in, and I wouldn't care. Actually....that would probably be better...as having watched a few IRL races....well..the crashes provide the only entertainment. Especially in the god awful...I mean Indianapolis 500.

Cart just has to move on...so they no longer have the two ugliest cars in racing in their field....big deal. One less mouthy owner to keep happy. Two less Brazilians. Room for two more drivers! Another team perhaps?

Anyway, I just renewed my Molson Indy tickets, and am looking forward to watching the best, most competitive racing series in the world! Which will have two less ugly cars next year ;).

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jay

"good riddens Roger, good riddens Gil, good riddens Helio!"

Actually, that would be riddance, but we got it.

"They can crash out of every IRL race they race in, and I wouldn't care. Actually....that would probably be better."

Are you too bitter to just wish them well and move on?

"as having watched a few IRL races....well..the crashes provide the only entertainment."

Did you find Davey's crash particularly satisfying?"



Maybe I might want to string a few gems together to drive home a point. Here goes; "Especially in the god awful...I mean Indianapolis 500." or "Cart just has to move on...so they no longer have the two ugliest cars in racing in their field....big deal." or "One less mouthy owner to keep happy."



No, CART fans aren't bitter.

"Did you find Davey's crash particularly satisfying?"

who? I don't usually like to see crashes...at least where there's doubt as to whether the driver's injured or not... but, I have to admit that seeing a guy spin around and clip a barrier..or crash into another car can be exciting as long as you know that nobody gets hurt. And during the IRL races, the crashes seemed to wake me up...but then I think the Cart oval races can be pretty boring too..so it's just my preference for racing.

Just consider my comments as a slamming of the door as they leave... Yeah, I don't like it, but what makes Cart great is not any one team, or any one driver, but the best formula and the best group of any series. The most competitive and exciting races anywhere.. the fact that you can get up close and personal with the machinery, teams, and drivers. The fact that the tickets don't cost $400 each... Like F1, but without a lot of the negatives! And throw in an oval race or two to shake things up and provide some excitement for the people that actually like them.

What CART fans are bitter about is the fact that if one of the most influential owners in US single seater racing can be influenced by sponsors then what for the rest of the teams. The drivers don't want to race in IRL otherwise they'd already be there. The owners are being swayed by sponsors and money which IMO is something to be bitter about.

Plus I was a Penske fan and a fan of Gil and Helio. Part of me wants them to do really well and show to us that CART is superior by all means and that the IRL is a second rate series. But another part of me hopes they flunk it big time to put off CARTs other owners who at the moment appear to be loyal to the cause but maybe thinking of jumping ship.

One must also wonder whether Penske and Marlboro considered the new plan that convinced Team KOOL Green to stay in CART.

But in the end all of this is happenning for TWO reasons.

Firstly What if Chip Gannassi hadn't gone to Indy last year? and also to the complete mess with the engine rules. STICK WITH TURBOS!

I do not blame Helio and Gil for being unhappy about the forced move. Both drivers are known for their road racing prowess above their oval racing skill. It would be like a neurosurgeon being forced to become a proctologist by their hospital because a wealthy donor wants it that way.

See. Everyone is bitter. Stop it. Stop it now. Give it up.

CART was taking openwheeled racing down the toilet with them. Look at what they are doing to themselves even as we write this. CART made all the right mistakes at the perfect time to self-inflict the most damage.

The IRL is, on the other hand, is going great guns and bringing on new engine makers and new events. They have an exclusive TV contract with ABC for multiple years. Lola and Reynard are going to build new cars for the series. Roger Penske is back. Marlboro is coming on board. All these people and all the manufacturers and sponsors are not stupid. They are all solid businessmen and they have nmade their decision based on where they see their best business opportunities.

Tony George picked exactly the right time to form his league. Everything was looking rosy for CART and some blame Tony for CART's troubles, but that is utter BS. CART was headed for disaster even then, but only Tony saw the signs of it. If you want to claim that Tony caused CART's problems then he was smarter and more influential and a better businessman than anyone in CART. Otherwise he could have never pulled it off. Do you really want to admit that?

This isn't about the teams and drivers of CART. This isn't about road racing or turbos or foriegn drivers. This is about the 500, period. These people are not going to take it down with them. George had to do something or he would be sinking right along with CART as we speak. He went his own way in 1996 and was going to sink or swin on his own. CART went their own way with everything in hand, the cars, the teams and the stars. Tony built the IRL from scratch and today they are looking good.

CART controlled their own destiny. They could have worked with George, but they had been in power far to long to let Tony have a piece of it. So they set out on their own course and have been in the wilderness ever since. CART had their own series with all the sponsors and teams and stars. It is fact that they ruined it all by themselves. The moment they decided that they were bigger than the speedway, they were as good as dead.

So don't be bitter with the IRL. Don't be bitter with the IRL drivers who just want to make a living. Don't be bitter with Tony George for running his business the way he sees fit. Don't be bitter with the engine makers who didn't want to spend the billions on high tech that wasn't needed to go fast. Don't be bitter with the American sponsors who jumped ship because they don't sell their product in the nine countries on CART's schedule. Don't be bitter with the IRL fans who merely like like the IRL, it drivers and 225+mph wheel to wheel action.

Don't be bitter with the people who merely opened their eyes.




Be bitter with the owners of CART who had it all and couldn't keep it together.

err....I'd still remind you that Cart still does have all of the races that are actually watched by more than a few people in trailers in the Southern US....and drivers that people have actually heard of... ...and teams that are actually aware that other countries exist...and that there's a market there too!

IRL has successful races that will draw consistent full crowds where? Indianapolis is usually full...are there others?

Cart on the other hand has full crowds guaranteed every year at...Monterrey Mexico, Long Beach, Motegi Japan, Milwaukee, Laguna Seca, Portland, Toronto, Cleveland, Vancouver, (undoubtably) Montreal, the two races in Europe, and of course the every successful Surfers Paradise. Yes, there are events with less than full grandstands, but most arent...

And are IRL races actually televised? I mean, apart from late at night between infomercials? They're rarely televised live here(Ontario). Cart on the other hand has a new TV deal which might even get qualifying televised next year.

really...apart from Cart's engine troubles (which will undoubtably be sorted out) ...they're really doing a lot better than IRL.

Oh Roger, don't let the door hit you on the ar$e on the way out.

Roll on CART '02.

Can't blame Gil and Helio for not wanting to switch. That does not surprise me in the least. Not so long ago, Gil turned down an offer to drive for Stewart GP so that he could stay in CART. And that was before he signed with Penkse. He said that he enjoyed racing in the series more than he would enjoy the F1 money. And I'm sure that he wanted to defend his consecutive championships. As I'm sure that both drivers revelled the international exposure. But what these guys must remember is that neither of them would be champions if not for the support and faith of Roger Penske. Gil would not be a two-time champion. Helio wouldn't have a ring from Indianapolis. I dare say that neither one of them would be "household names" as they are now. And so now is the time that they must return some of this loyalty. They each have but one year left on their contracts. It is their duty to go out there and perform. And win. Come back to CART next year, if you wish. Or if Roger wishes. But for now, you drive the Marlboro car. Here's your paycheque.

I'm happy for Jay that he no longer has to be offended by the two ugly cars. Ever stood beside one? They ain't ugly. "One less mouthy owner to keep happy". Don't forget who you're talking about here. "Two less Brazilians". Hey, I love CART for the depth of talent. Don't hardly care if they're from Iceland or Mozambique. Just so long as they're the best of the best. "Room for two more drivers. Another team perhaps?" There's always been room for two more drivers. Or four. Now there's room for six. Another small-budget team folds, and there'll be room for more! Hurray! I love it when the field gets smaller, because that means that there's room for more!

But I believe that there was no shortage of companies willing to sponsor Team Penske. So if Marlboro wanted to go IRL, then Marlboro should have gone IRL, but without Penske. I believe that he should have stayed with CART, albeit under new sponsorship. Let Marlboro sponsor some American drivers to promote their American product. Team Penske could have gone on as they were. They haven't always been Marlboro, let's not forget. There was Pennzoil, Gould... But it's always been Team Penske. And they've always won championships regardless of the livery.

I would like to come back and read this thread in two years' time. Roger Penske may prove either the fool or the genious.

I haven't quite figured out Dr. Austin's philosophy regarding foreign drivers in the USA, yet (believe it or not...). Here's what Dr. Austin wrote on December 7th:

"You know, I'm just so sick of it. Young American talent gets pushed out of jobs in their own country by ungrateful foriegners [sic]. Go home!"

Now here is what Dr. Austin wrote some time ago (while in the process of shredding one of my earlier posts!):

"The IRL is open to anyone who can get through tech inspection and go fast enough to get in. No one qualified is excluded. The IRL guys will race against anyone who shows up. If they get beat, so what?" (This was from a thread called "No more CART for me) -- November 17th).

So here's what I'm trying to understand: On the one hand, Dr. Austin praises the IRL for doing *something* (I'm not sure just what) that gives young American drivers a chance to compete in open wheel racing -- a chance that he apparently believes no longer exists in CART. On the other hand, the arrival of Gil de Ferran and Helio Castroneves (along with the other foreign drivers already in the IRL) suggests that the IRL is beginning to see the sort of influx of well-funded South American and European drivers that entered CART a decade ago -- which could easily take seats away from American drivers. If this proves to be so, (and it seems likely, given the current state of CART), will Dr. Austin still praise the IRL for its welcoming attitude toward foreign drivers (as he did in his earlier post), or would he expect Tony George to do something to send the "ungrateful foriegners" [sic] home, as his rather hostile recent post would suggest?

"I'm happy for Jay that he no longer has to be offended by the two ugly cars. Ever stood beside one?" Yup! Which is why I can make such a statement. But really, the Cart machines are beautiful...they just sometimes have horrible paint jobs!

macdaddy, unlike an IRL fan, I also don't care where the drivers come from. Which is one reason why I don't care how many Americans are in the field. I said there are two less Brazilians, in the same way I'd say there are two less Canadians if Team Player's left. There will undoubtably more where they came from.

There's no denying that Cart does have a number of wrinkles to sort out in management and with their engine suppliers. But, they still have a much larger market, and much larger fan base, and much better drivers than IRL will ever have. They just need to take advantage of it!

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by JPBeltoise

"I haven't quite figured out Dr. Austin's philosophy regarding foreign drivers in the USA,"

I want to see more Americans in American OW racing. If foriegn drivers want to come here, ok. I'de like to see American sponsors insist that Americans be put in the cars. Tecate insists on Mexacans.
Marlboro Brazil is throwing all kinds of money to get Brazillians in. Players has never had a driver that wasn't Canadian. I just want equal footing. When a proven former champion like Jimmy Vasser runs around in a plain unsponsored car, something is clearly wrong. Bryan Herta ran in Endeck colors toward the season's end, but just who do you think Jerry Forsythe is? It isn't in Pat Patrick or Jerry forysthe's interest to pay their driver's way out of their own pockets. The reason there are no more americans in CART is because there is no one to pay for it. I didn't say I had an answer.

Where are the American sponsors?


"So here's what I'm trying to understand: On the one hand, Dr. Austin praises the IRL for doing *something* (I'm not sure just what) that gives young American drivers a chance to compete in open wheel"

I don't believe I ever said that the IRL is doing anything about the problem, but the team owners are by hiring more Americans. I do not know if the IRL is helping subsidise them, but i would not be against Tony investing money in his own series. This is America and it is Tony's Speedway, league and money.

I don't have access to the records, but there is talk that Sara Fisher is financed by TG. Strapped IRL teams seem to mysteriously have enough money to go on, so the money must be coming from somewhere. There is no denying that there are more American drivers in the IRL.




" On the other hand, the arrival of Gil de Ferran and Helio Castroneves (along with the other foreign drivers already in the IRL) suggests that the IRL is beginning to see the sort of influx of well-funded South American and European drivers that entered CART a decade ago -- which could easily take seats away from American drivers."

Which is criminal. The sport has gotten so stupidly expensive that talent no longer counts. It was great when CART was healthy because all the funded foriegn drivers raced there and the IRL had people stepping up out of raw talent like the lazier brothers and Sam. And Robbie Buhl who never got anything but junk to race in CART with. Sure, there were funded guys like, well, I don't want to embarrass the guy because he is a real gent, but there were funded guys who were over their heads. Just like everywhere.


"will Dr. Austin still praise the IRL for its welcoming attitude toward foreign drivers (as he did in his earlier post),"

Who the hell wants quotas? Equal footing is all that can reasonably be asked and let the best drivers get the good rides. Buhl is just one example of a good american driver who didn't get a fair chance until the IRL. No one in CART ever looked at Sam. And Buddy Lazier was treated like dirt and drove **** in CART.



"or would he expect Tony George to do something to send the "ungrateful foriegners home"

I was referring to Gil and Helio who are indeed, "ungrateful foriegners" if they don't appreciate the opportunity they have at Penske. If they copmplain about it, Roger can just cut them loose and see if they can maybe get on with Minardi or Coyne. They are with the best team and have the very best of everything at their disposal. That isn't good enough? And you think the term "ungrateful" doesn't apply here? The opportunity to go into the greatest race in the world with it's all time winningest team and defending champions? How many good Americans would grab that with both hands? But Gil and Helio are whingeing. Hey, Roger, bounce them out into the street and see if Ryan Newman wouldn't be grateful for a chance. Give me a call, Roger! I'll do it and be happy about it. I won't spit in your face in public and whine that what you would be giving me isn't good enough.


"as his rather hostile recent post would suggest?"

Thanks for twisting it to suit your own purpose.

I'm not hostile towards anyone who comes to this country and is grateful that they are accepted and given opportunities they would never get in their own country. Anyone who wants to come in and take money out of America, take American's jobs and then pay no taxes is getting a bargain. They should shut up and appreciate what they have. Go ahead and whine, Roger can put me in the car and I will be a grateful and faithful employee. so would hundfreds of other Americans.

Gil and Helio come from a country that is a dump. The everyday people are dirt poor. The F-1 teams live in terror when they go there because one of more of them is held up at gun point almost every year.
Most of the drivers won't take their families with them. But all of a sudden America and it's biggest race isn't good enough anymore. Yes, I am hostile with that. Foriegners are ok. Ungrateful foriegners know the way home.

So maybe my tolerance is a little low after 5000 of my people were brutally murdered. Maybe i think it would do America and it's people a hell of a lot of good to see their heros triumph. We need more Michael Andrettis, but they are not getting their chance in CART. And their chance in the IRL may have passed as well.

One of the things I love most about CART is the international field. And Indy has always had foreign entries. True that there are few Americans. What is needed is for a couple of American-sponsored teams to run programs similar to that of Players.

Tim Cindric President of Penske has said that Marlboro were the key factor in their decision to switch and that CARTs problems had no influence on what they did.

Money rules.

We have covered so much ground that there is plenty of room for misunderstanding here.So one more statement to clear things up and I wish to be done with this.

I have nothing at all against foriegners, per sey. What I have a problem with is Americans are struggling to get good rifdes in
either series and Gil and Helio are whingeing about having the best of everything that money can buy. Do you think Brian Herta, Al jr, Alex Baron, Memo Gidley, etc, etc would have any problem dropping everything and hopping in a Penske and doing the IRL tour? No way! And the line is a lot longer than just these guys.

No, all of the currently unemployed Americans would take the first decent car they were offered, but for some, the Penske ride is no longer good enough. If Gil and Helio's hearts aren't in it, cut them loose and give it to someone who will throw their soul into making the best of it. People don't deserve what they don't appreciate.

Austin - Sorry Gil and Helio didn't grow up in the States. Sorry they don't have the same feelings towards the Indy 500 and circle racing that you do. I don't think they have ever been ungrateful. Did you see after the race at Surfers this year when Gil clinched the championship (probably not, it wasn't in America ;) )? No one could say Gil was ungrateful. The hug he gave Roger was touching, and the emotion towards the whole team was unmistakable. Same thing with Helio at Indy.

Just because they are Brazilian and didn't grow up watching guys driving around in circles, or worshipping the IMS, doesn't mean they are any less grateful than anyone else. Indy 500 - the greatest race in the world. I reckon Gil and Helio would want to win the Brazilian GP or a Brazilian CART race as much as the Indy 500, if not more.

As a matter of fact, the Indy 500 has nothing to do with Gil and Helio's frustration. They got to run there last year (while still in CART), and happened to do pretty well.

Personally, I can understand their frustration. Growing up as road course racers, then racing in the most competitive and exciting series in the world, a series that enables them to be exposed to their homeland and the rest of the world, in the best team in that series. I can understand their frustration at being told that they have to go and race in a series that only turns left, is only really popular in the US, uses cars that are slower than the cars they have been driving, has a lesser quality of competition and limits any future career possibilities all because the sponsors thought that they could kill a few more Americans by racing in the IRL.

Dr. Austin --

I just logged on and read that you feel this topic has been adequately explored, and you're probably right. But I had already prepared this reply, so I figure I'll post it anyway, at this point:

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Dr. Austin, your replies are certainly nothing if not thorough! I don't think I can reply quite as completely as you did, but here are some thoughts in reponse to your last post to me (all quotes from your post to this thread on Dec 8.)

"I'd like to see American sponsors insist that Americans be put in the cars. Tecate insists on Mexicans. Marlboro Brazil is thowing all kinds of money to get Brazilians in....The reason there are no more Americans in CART is because there is no one to pay for it... Where are the American sponsors?" First, a technical point -- I thought that Penske's pair of Brazilians are sponsored by Marlboro North America (that being the reason that Penske feels the need to compete at Indianapolis, etc.). I'm not arguing that this disproves your point about the inadequacy of American sponsors, but it does suggest that Gil and Helio are where they are by virtue of their talent, not their nationality. But, concerning the larger issue of American sponsors -- perhaps, in the words of that over-used cliche, "we have met the enemy, and he is us" (well, not the people on this forum, maybe, but the American sports audience in general). What I mean is that American sponsors aren't really interested in supporting young American open-wheel racing drivers because the sport is so far from the attention of most American sports fans. So I don't think it's fair to harbor any ill will toward foreign drivers (or the teams that employ them) for the relative ease with which they find private backing to obtain CART (or IRL) seats -- particularly when they have also shown talent in the lower formulae. It's just that sponsors in those countries know that they have access to a public which is very interested in the sport.

"I was referring to Gil and Helio who are indeed, 'ungrateful foreigners' if they don't appreciate the opportunity they have at Penske... How many good Americans would grab that with both hands? But Gil and Helio are whingeing. Hey Roger, bounce them out into the street and see if Ryan Newman wouldn't be grateful for a chance. Give me a call, Roger! I'll do it and be happy about it. I won't spit in your face in public and complain..." I just want to point out that it's a little premature to accuse Gil and Helio of complaining. All I've seen is a single reference in Autosport that says they are privately expressing some dissatisfaction with the decision. I don't think it's surprising that a couple of drivers brought up on road-racing, and who have clearly loved driving in the CART series, would be at least a little unhappy that a combination of politics and economics have pushed them into an all-oval series. Anyway, my point is simply that, to my knowledge, Gil and Helio have remained supportive of Roger Penske in public, and haven't "spit in his face" about the move to the IRL. And I agree with you that, as long as they remain employed by him, that's exactly what they should do, no matter what their personal, and privately-expressed, feelings are.

"Gil and Helio come from a country that is a dump. The everyday people are dirt poor..." I think it is a little rude to characterize another person's country in that way. I've been to Brazil, both in Rio de Janiero (for the inaugural CART race in 1996, in fact!) and out into the countryside a little, and I wouldn't call it a dump at all. Granted, their standard of living is not as high as in the United States, but there are certainly plenty of shopping malls, cinemas, office buildings, and all the other trappings of modern life we expect. And, not only did we not experience any crime at all, but when our rental car broke down, we found that the attendants at the local filling station and garage were more than helpful in getting us back on the road, despite my woeful attempts to communicate in Portuguese. Obviously there are areas of Rio de Janiero and Sao Paulo that wealthy northerners should avoid, but isn't that true of most large American cities, too? Remember the spate of attacks on foreign tourists in Florida a couple of years ago?

"So maybe my tolerance is a little low after 5000 of my people were brutally murdered." I can sympathize with you here, certainly, but I just want to point out that, as I recall, Gil de Ferran made a trip to New York City to present a CART check to the relief effort, and came away very moved by what he saw of Ground Zero. So, while I also feel some antipathy to those of other nationalities who don't support our country at this time, I'm not sure that it's relevant to this discussion, because the entire CART community, to my knowledge, has been very supportive of the United States ever since September 11.

"Thanks for twisting it to suit your own purpose. I'm not hostile to anyone who comes to this country and is grateful..." Sorry if my characterization of your reponse as "hostile" was incorrect. It did seem that way to me, but that's part of the problem with these forum discussions, I suppose. It's difficult to interpret a person's attitude when you can't see his (or her) face. Maybe we should start using those smilie things...

Originally posted by Dr. Austin
I won't spit in your face in public and whine that what you would be giving me isn't good enough.

As JP has pointed out, I too have not seen any evidence of Gil or Helio complaining in public. If you have, could you please make a reference to the source so I can check it out? From everything I've seen, they have been perfect gentlemen in public.

Originally posted by Dr. Austin
Gil and Helio come from a country that is a dump. The everyday people are dirt poor. The F-1 teams live in terror when they go there because one of more of them is held up at gun point almost every year.
Most of the drivers won't take their families with them. But all of a sudden America and it's biggest race isn't good enough anymore. Yes, I am hostile with that. Foriegners are ok. Ungrateful foriegners know the way home.

Here we go with the big-headed America is the greatest, America will save the world, we are superior stuff again. A bit of humility goes a long way.

For someone who is so strong in defending and honouring his own country, to insult another's homeland like this is pretty poor form.

I can't see how Gil and Helio have been ungrateful in any way. As mentioned before, the actions of Gil in Australia, and of Helio at Indy, were the furthest things from ungrateful I think I've ever seen.

I wouldn't be surprised, however, if they were ungrateful of Austin's opinions and hospitality.

as far as i can make out from over in the UK, Penske are a bunch of corporate ##### sucking Marlboro's $$$$ De Ferran and Castroneves should quit Penske straight away!!!!

Sorry had to edit this one. An interesting (if somewhat ribald) analysis on the state of true American Racing.

AMoffat

Dr. Austin, you disappoint me by turning out to be another one of those Circle Racing Rules And Americans Rule Circle Racing guys. My cousin, who has at least the excuse that she is a blonde from Hollywood where the atmosphere is, shall we say, rarified, also believes that the rest of the world outside America is some kind of theme park. She was hugely disappointed with England, which she expected to be like America, only "quaint". I'm surprised to find this kind of attitude in someone of your age and experience. But then I have heard that some of the United States Senate and House members don't even have passports.....

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As far as racing goes--Penske who? Gil who? Helio who? :confused:

The reference Austin made about the World Trade Centre was a bit below the belt. The actual death toll from September 11 is now actually below 3000, and by no means were all of those American. In fact, it was the biggest mass murder of Britons since World War 2. The comments Austin has made in his various Penske-themed posts show that he is utterly biased in favour of Americans and their world view. Marlboro US sponsor Penske, they had no say in Roger's driver choice, Roger shrewdly chose two drivers who up to that point had not consistantly had great opportunities to shine, and nurtured them into the stars they are today. Whether they are American, Brazillian, German, Swedish or Zimbabwean is irrelevant. Or at least it should be. Regarding sponsor's insistance on driver lineups, how many NASCAR sponsors are non-American? Are these sponsors insisting on American drivers, or are they simply blind to the existance of over 200 over nations?

The IRL attracts no interest outside the US, in fact nor does oval racing in general. A large number of people in the UK are convinced that CART is oval racing only, and oval racin in itself does not interest many people, whether the drivers are called Gil De Ferran, Sam Hornish Junior, Jeff Gordon or Rusty Wallace, whether the cars are open wheel or stock cars, whether they're high or low power, what country the races are held in, or anything else. To a European palate, oval racing is comparatively unexciting on TV.

CART's growing fanbase in Europe has been down to it offering the best racing in the world, featuring a seriously talented driver lineup from all around the world, on racetracks which require some skill and can't be broken downsimply into mile-oval, superspeedway and high banked oval, the only types of ovals going. CART is not purely an American series anymore- if it was it wouldn't have met such hostility. Penske's departure certainly does not destroy the series, and the management mistakes were made, remember, by Americans, Americans whose aim is to prevent a great series being desroyed into a clique of oval racing being funded by one man trying to put across a large field for his one race. The IRL has stumbled by on a range of CART flops, unknowns and has-beens for a long time. Hornish is certainly good, but otherwise only Brack and Stewart are good enough to challenge the overseas CART drivers (and last I looked, Brack isn't American either). Guys like Cheever moved over when they lost the edge, just as Cheever quit F1 for CART in the early 90s after being outdone in the Arrows F1 team, and realising his best days were behind him. Most of the biggest successes in US open-wheel racing in the last 10 years have at least some European racing background- Villeneuve, Montoya, Emmo, Mansell, Zanardi, Brack, De Ferran, Junquiera, Moreno, Da Matta.... we are talking proven international stars. Even Indy Lights and Toyota Atlantic have had lots of non-US successes, not all of whom have gained the sponsorship to get into CART (remember Philipp Peter?)

Even if it was a true American series, that shouldn't exclude others from taking drives, putting packages together to race in their best opportunity. Britain's premier domestic series is the British Touring Car Championship. This was won by a Brit this year, but by a Swiss in 2000, a Frenchman in 1999, a Swede in 1998, that same Swiss in 1997,and a German in 1996. Yet we don't moan about 'ungrateful foreigners' spoiling 'our' series, we go and enjoy thrilling racing. In fact Jason Plato, this eyar's winner, is a hated figure, most people wanted his French team-mate to win it. In CART the standard of driving is a lot higher now than when Al Junior and Vasser won their titles. Vasser was beaten comfortably in 1997 and 1998 by Zanardi, despite Vasser having 6 years experience compared to Zanardi's one. And Montoya made Vasser look like an incompetant old fogey. Quite what Bryan Herta has done to deserve a drive has never been explained either- the guy is mediocre at best, compare him to Papis in 1999 or the Canadians at Forsythe this year (yes, that's the same Canadians who Austin seems to dislike simply because their sponsor specifies Canadians. I wonder what he makes of Rahal's insistance on an All-American line-up for 2002)

Nicely put!!!

The fact that CART guys went and whupped the IRL in their own back yard at Indy this year as well as Montoyas (another CART guy) win last year, speaks volumes for the mediocrity of the IRLs talent. Maybe it can act as a place to shine in rare instances (Brack being the only one) put him on a road course which involves steering in more than one direction and he looks mediocore.

I'm sorry to IRL fans but CART rules. The only thing bringing it down at the moment is poor management but CART have been able to identify this and I am confident in their ability to correct this situation.