Nurburgring

Has anyone got any pictures of the old Nurburgring, including the Sudschleife?

Also what was the Sudschleife used for and when was it abandoned?

Paul: try the Nurburgring Fanproject - Anglo-German site, includes Forum etc - they should be able to help.

http://www.nurburgring.de/

I'll look out what I've got on the Sudschleife (not much!)

looking for südschleife pics???
visit ben lovejoy's ring fanpage:
www.nurburgring.org.uk

or directly to the südschleife page:
www.marvin.co.uk/benlovejoy/nuerburgring/sudschleife.html

For one thing, the Sudschleiffe was used for the 1960 German GP...

And there were races that used both circuits together...

Sudschleife was, I belive, used for several German motorcycle GPs, right up to the end of the 1970s and the building of the new circuit. I belive that a (very) small section of it exists today outside the current circuits perimeter.

Yes, probably a part of the current parking lot...

Yes, and I also seem to recall a photo in F1 News from about 1994 which showed an overgrown section which looked just like a country lane but the magazine claimed was in fact part of the Sudschleife.

In my usual aggravatingly pedantic way, I notice something on Ben Lovejoy's site that I was never aware of before.

I always thought that the first corner on the Sudschleife was the first bit of the South Curve, and then the road just kept going straight as the South Curve turned into its right-handed section. Not so, apparently. The first corner seems to be just before the South Curve.

You learn something new every day, t'ydi?

I only blundered into this forum today, so I'm a bit late replying to this. However.

Barry, you were right before and after reading Ben's website. The Südkehre was rebuilt during the 1970/1971 reconstruction of the Nürburgring. Here's before

http://www.pro-steilstrecke.de/images/Suedschleife/suedsc38.jpg

and after

http://www.bols.demon.nl/Ring/Images/sudkehre_1978.jpg

pictures of the Südkehre and entrance to the Südschleife.

Even longer ago, the Südschleife did not cross under the regional road south of the Südkehre. Instead, it went over a smaller, local road. Compare these two sketches.

http://www.bols.demon.nl/Ring/Images/ringstartundziel2_klein.gif

http://www.priveterrein.nl/Ring/nring.jpg

This picture shows the beginning of the Südschleife when it still crossed over a bridge:

http://www.pro-steilstrecke.de/images/Suedschleife/suedsc37.jpg

Thanks for that, lovely pictures there and some interesting information, anymore would still be appreciated, I find this circuit and its history absolutely fascinating!

Paul,

Most of the Suedschleife still exists today. Road number K72. About 60% of what still exists is public road and the remainder is used as access to the car parks for the GP circuit.

I've got a bit of video of this section on my website.
http://www.elise-s160.co.uk/nuerburgring.htm

There are also a few in-car laps of the Nordscheife there as well.


Mark

The Südschleife was used still in the seventies, but the lack of savety-areals caused the dying of this part of the old Ring. Can you imagine, that Interserie monsters with 800bhp were pushed through the numerous bends of this only 8meter wide track? but is was.
I can´t remember the track going over the main-road. The picture above shows the entrance to the southern loop at the sixties, where the bikes going downwards under the bridge, from which the picture obviously is taken.with the moderizing of the northern loop, the entrance to the Südschleife was set backwards before the Südkurve.
today there are some remains of this track, some miles are regular streets (the first part going to the bottom of the Track at village Müllenbach), some original sections are still to visit, a bit overgrown by gras, leading upwards. they give an impression of the narrowness , which comes a bit more impressive by the old original hedges, now grown to adult trees, but still in row, as they were planted decades ago.
once a year, a famous histocic rallye uses this original section as a stage, bringing back some remeberings .
In the pages of Richard Kunze there is a video, taken in late seventies, going Südschleife in a private car.

I am soon going to start a project on the abandoned circuits of Europe it will include the south circuit, Brno, Brooklands, Crystal Palace, Donnington, Mettet, Spa, Zeltweg, Rhiems - Guex, Monthelry (spelling!), Brussels, Mille Miglia etc. Similiar to the track tests in motorsport but not exactly the same. I intend to visit all the circuits next summer in a month trip around in my two seater special, Theres a lot of south circuit left.

ss,

I visited some circuits in Belgium on the way back from the ring in September.

Pictures are HERE (http://www.elise-s160.co.uk/ringtrip2.htm)


Video lap of Mettet HERE (http://www.elise-s160.co.uk/images/Videos/mettet.WMV) This is the current circuit.

I did drive around and video the upper triangle part which isn't used any more but there are a number of barriers I had to drive around to do so. The circuit is still in use and as you will see on the video they are adding another chicane.


Video lap of Chimay HERE (http://www.elise-s160.co.uk/images/Videos/chimay.WMV)

Unfortunatly the local police were doing spot checks just next to the old pit building which you can see on the main page, so driving past with no rear view mirror and a video camera running probably wasn't a good move ;). This circuit must have been really FAST. There is also a new circuit which they use for historic racing, which uses the same part as the police were carrying out stop checks, so similarly driving past too often could have caused a problem as my car isn't exactly subtle. ;) Just before the end you can see the new circuit joining from the right. The circuit turns right at the end and heads down the hill through a few curves before passing the pit building and the point where the video started.

Pictures from a visit to Brooklands with a car club HERE (http://www.elise-s160.co.uk/frenchfrollic2002sun.htm)

Also Monthelery (I don't know how it's spelt either) near paris is an Industry proving ground and not open to the public. I've done Rhiems in the past but no pictures, and plan on trying to visit the Brussels circuit next year on the way to the ring. Also been round some of the old Crystal Palace track.

Have already seen your site! exellent one!, was going to contact you anyway, I've done the crystal palace track rather extensivley for obvious reasons. Yes a yellow lotus aint subtle so I intend to use a silver clan based special!
the paris track that begins with mont... is not open to the public but using a few contacts I'm sure I can get a good run around it. Have done Brussels on foot (or at least some of it) done Brno (another dodgy one to spell, the circuits actually called the masaryk ring), Mille Miglia and Targa florio are big chunks of the project that I'm looking forward to doing. I would like for a few to tag along as company on this trip so bear it in mind.

How hold on a moment... I think some people have got the Südschliefe confused with the pit loop!

The pit loop was a pair of parallel roads, with a turnaround at each end. South of _that_ was the Südschliefe. The pit loop connected the Nordschliefe and the Südschliefe, providing the pit and garage facilities for both tracks, _and_ allowing all three sections of the Nurburgring to be linked together.

Often in races on the Nordschliefe or on the full circuit, the Südschliefe would be used for warm-up and caution laps, as a warm-up lap on the Nordschliefe could take half an hour!

M Coupe, you _had_ to go and mention Montlhéry... One of my favorite abandoned tracks... An undulating 7-mile blast through the French countryside. :)

no I think they were talking about hte start of the sud where it leaves the pit loop.

Lee,

I think the 7 mile blast you are thinking about is Clermont-Ferrand. Montlhery is a banked circuit, with a bit of road course.

Also, never heard of the Sudschleife being used for warm up laps etc. On race weekends the northern bend on the pit loop was opened and a car would do a loop around there so they could carry out a proper flying lap without having to do the 14miles as an out lap.


ss,

On the last europe trip I had planned to also visit Grenzlandring in Germany. This is at the town of Wegberg south of Monchengladbach, the road still uses the circuit name on the Michelin maps, but the weather was good and the ring was open ;).
Another to look at is Schotten, NE of Frankfurt. There is also a huge circuit at Usingen to Weilberg NW of Frankfurt, this was used in the 1920's.
The GEL MOTORSPORT (http://www.silhouet.com/motorsport/) pages are excellent for circuit histories.

I've also spent weeks on the onl Miramas GP circuit in the South of France, but as I no longer work for BMW that's out of bounds. But it was a boring flat oval. ;)

Mark

Quote:
"Montlhery is a banked circuit, with a bit of road course."

Seven point seven miles of Grand Prix circuit is hardly "a bit of road course" I would have thought.

Germany calling! this trip could take a lot of fuji 800!

Barry,

It wasn't until I relooked at the GEL site I realised it was as long, (It's been a while since I played Spirit of Speed). There is a current based road site which is quite a bit shorter.

I have Spirit of Speed, but I have never managed to make my steering wheel work properly. Your post has made me determined to have another go, despite the fact that the game is rubbished by all and sundry.

never played the game - wish I had. This trip seems to be getting ever longer!!!

Originally posted by M Coupe
Lee,

I think the 7 mile blast you are thinking about is Clermont-Ferrand. Montlhery is a banked circuit, with a bit of road course.

Also, never heard of the Sudschleife being used for warm up laps etc. On race weekends the northern bend on the pit loop was opened and a car would do a loop around there so they could carry out a proper flying lap without having to do the 14miles as an out lap.

Nope, this is the Linas-Montlhéry GP circuit... Disused but still in tact. 7.7 miles. :)

http://www.silhouet.com/motorsport/tracks/montlhe2.jpg

Clermont-Ferrand was a great track too, but couldn't be called a blast... That track threw you in every direction possible, like a mini Nordscleife.

I've read in several books and websites about the warm-up laps on the Südscheife. I'm not sure, but what you're describing sounds more like the qualifying procedure.

Barry,

The game isn't very good, but you do get the chance to have a blast round all these tracks. I do enjoy flying round Brooklands.

Lee,

It was the undulating comment that threw me, IIRC (from SOS) it's quite flat, whereas, as you say Clermont Ferrand is very UN-flat :D I remember reading that some drivers felt physically sick after a few laps there, my kind of track.


Mark



Note to myself, Must visit Clermont Ferrand!!

I agree, one MUST visit Clermont-Ferrand.
The track is located in a Natural Park surrounded by volcanoes and to my opinion is a blast. Remains of the old track are public roads and some downhills sections are very frightening, with very fast corners. The new track is like the new Nurburg for the old one and could be described as you did. When i came i had a chance to do a lap of the 2 tracks as some fences were open. It was rather great.
The old Montlhery (i sometimes spell Broklends...) is still there but has no future as none of his owners wants to really save it. But it's a blast...

Originally posted by M Coupe
Lee,

It was the undulating comment that threw me, IIRC (from SOS) it's quite flat, whereas, as you say Clermont Ferrand is very UN-flat :D I remember reading that some drivers felt physically sick after a few laps there, my kind of track.

Ah, I see. Well, there is _quite_ a bit ot elevation change, the steep banking included. Admittedly, nothing compared to Clermont-Ferrand.

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
I've read in several books and websites about the warm-up laps on the Südscheife. I'm not sure, but what you're describing sounds more like the qualifying procedure.

I have also never heard of this practice. The warm-up lap for German GPs was discussed on The Nostalgia Forum (http://www.atlasf1.com/bb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50475) recently. I'm undecided who to believe at this point. Lee, what sources mention the Südschleife's being used for warm-up purposes?

Jackie Stewart, talking about the qualifying procedure:

http://www.oppositelock.freeserve.co.uk/jys.html

Quote: "You did your warming up on the South Loop and then you went out on the big circuit and nailed it."

This is the site I got my original info from:

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/olivier.jacquet/Historique%20origine%20E.htm

Thank you, Lee. Now that's intriguing. Surely, this could've only happened during practice? On race day, the Südschleife was used for parking, as you can see here:

http://www.pro-steilstrecke.de/images/Suedschleife/suedsc38.jpg

This clearly needs more research. I'll ask Olivier where he got his information the next time I see him.

Warming up on the South Loop of the Ring involved leaving the pits, going through the 180 deg first bend of the Nordschleife, back down behind the pits still on the North Circuit, but instead of diving off into the country there was a link loop off to the right which bought you back to just before the begining of the pits. Hope this makes sense, it was easier to do than describe.

Olivier and I looked at the magazine articles on which he based that paragraph. He's had doubts for a while about the sanity of using the Südschleife for warm-up purposes and that picture settled it.

What's causing all the confusing I think is that there is a Südkehre, Südkurve and Südschleife.

- Südkehre. This is the "south loop" that's shown in the picture above. It leads from the pits straight back to the so called "Gegenrade" (reverse straight) behind the pits and then leads to the Nordkurve, and from there on to Hatzenbach or back to the pits straight using the Nordkehre. The Nordkehre/Südkehre combination is the Start/Ziel-schleife that was mentioned in this thread where some people warmed up their cars. Although for a long time, there was no warming up at all, of course.

- Südkurve. This is the left-hander also seen above that connects the straight and the Südkehre.

- Südschleife. This is the other "south loop", the start of which is near the top of the above photograph. I really don't see the point of using this whole track, which is as hard to master as the Nordschleife, just to warm up your tires.

In fact, I think the above, all put together, doesn't contradict Jackie Stewart's statement. "Warm up in the long right-hander and then just nail it on the big circuit." To me that is an entirely satisfactory explanation for this little puzzle.

Hope this makes sense, it was easier to do than describe.

I'm sure with my driving skills, it would still be easier to describe than to do!

There are maps earlier in this topic that illustrate your explanation, though.

The southern loop could be used for testing without any contact to Südkehre by using a small way, beginning just before leaving the Südschleife / entering the back-straight, and it was leading you back to the southern loop . This little road was very narrow and isn´t visilble in the picture above because it is covered by the trees , which stood on both sides. Nevertheless racers were very speedy here. I ´ve seen Steinmetz Opels testing here for a supporting race in August 1969, while on the main track Formula II were racing.

Do I recall correctly that the sixties 'Marathon de la Route' rally became the '84 Hours of the 'Ring'? And didn't they join up North and South circuits and race round it for 4 days. I though Broadspeed or Roger Clarke were involved. Maybe works MG or Austin Healeys. Slightly before my time!
During the seventies, we definitely looped back to the pits as a warm up lap, before taking off for a full lap of the 'Ring. Our races were only 5 laps long because that's all the fuel we could carry. Absolutely desperate slipstreaming down the long straight at the end of each lap.

There was no way this 'south circuit' was used as a warm up, because the length of the lap and marshalling it would have been an even bigger problem.

John,

I've had a look through some books and the Marathon-de-la-Route took place in 1965 as a 72 hour non-stop race which wasn't very successful.

In 1966 it was revamped, increased to 84 hours and the rules were as follows.
The average speed achieved in the first 12 hours had to be repeated in the final 12. Also each car had a set lap time, and as long as it was achieved the competitor was credited with 28km one complete lap(points to a combined circuit). 1 second lateness attracted a penalty of 200m. Every 10 laps 5 minutes extra was given for refueling and 20mins for servicing was allowed every 50 laps.
With 12 hours to go MGB's were 1st and 2nd. These were official works entries, one went out but the other driven by Andrew Hedges and Julien Verneuve won. (The MGB used 16mpg and 175 miles to a pint of oil) The cars had clocked up 28,000 miles by half distance.

The event run again in 1967, this time BMC entered 2 970cc Mini Cooper S's. One of the Mini's led briefly due to a disc breakage on Vic Elfords 911, but then had a wheel bearing go and Finished 2nd overall. The car covered 5,500 miles at an average speed of 66mph.

In 1968 a MGC GT finished 6th Overall. Just found that this event was also Mazda's competition debut

I can't find any reference to a 1969 event. Just have, apparantly a 911R won the '69 event

I am sure you can guess most of the info comes from a BMC book.

The BMC/BL competitions department by Bill Price to be exact.

One of the 911's from the 1967 event is up for sale, don't know if this is the Vic Elford car. It is in Australia though.
http://www.carsonline.com.au/bernadou.html


Painting of the winning MGB from 1966.
http://www.bayside.co.uk/mg/images/mg-2_bigger.jpg