Should Marshals Be Paid??

With the introduction of what appears to be an excellent forum, I suppose I should ask the age old question - should Marshals be paid?

I should imagine that most of our Marshals are quite happy to work for nothing, but do you think that you should be paid for your services. I know that most drivers think what a great job you do - but would they be prepared to pay an extra £5.00 entry fee to be donated to the Marshals!!

Your views....

Expenses would be nice, but that's not really the problem. As soon as you are paid, you have health and safety issues, re-alignment of tax codes etc. etc. and it becomes a bit of a mess. Personally I'm happy enough not being paid, but trying to do a professional job. Any other thoughts?

I agree with you Marshal. Another problem with being paid is that you tend to attract the wrong sort of person. As things are we do what we do because we have a love of motor racing, some would say we are completely mad! If we were to start paying marshals then I think that aspect of marshalling would rapidly disappear.

Getting paid would not be good.. as Marshal ponts out there's plenty of problems, and as Stephen points out that's not the reason that anyone should do it!

How much would we be worth if we were paid??

Expenses (you do sometimes get a fiver) would be nice, even if it's to fund breakfast.

Since the BARC (at least) are introducing mandatory transponders this year, there won't be a need for all of the timekeepers. I think the money that would be spent on the timekeepers should go towards marshalls' expenses, free food, etc. :)

Mmmm, a man after my own heart Chris. Sadly I don't see it happening do you!

Although only 7 people have voted in the poll so far, there seems to be a resounding NO to marshals being paid to attend race meetings. Something with which I happen to agree for the reasons stated earlier in the thread. May I just say 'thank you' to those who have taken the time and trouble to vote so far!

I suspect that if marshals were paid, overall we'd lose more then we'd gain.

It is, however, nice to feel that the clubs appreciate us - most, I feel, do something - raffles, packed lunches, t-shirts, free invites to the annual bash, etc.

Thanks for your views guys. I guess payment isn't the answer, although I am sure an extra contribution to costs say a fiver a meeting, wouldn't go unnoticed. Plus as much free food as you can eat.....well, maybe not!:laugh:

Has someone been sending you secret pictures of my waistline Andy?

Ahh, the old payment debate.....

I dont think that we should be paid, for what we do. Getting expences, meals & overals paid for etc is probably the way forward I think.

I totally agree with you Scott. To have overals sponsored would be a good idea and to have a breakfast voucher wouldn't go amiss either. Still, we can dream I guess?

The advantage of not being paid is that you can do as many or as few meetings as you wish and are not tied to having to attend because you are paid.

As has already been said a bit more appreciation and thought for the marshals from some of the organising clubs would not go amiss and this could be demonstrated in many ways eg meal allowances, clothing allowances (how much are the overalls, boots etc. which all come out of the marshal's own pocket)travel allowances etc and maybe even a well done now and then!
Decent sensible start and end times would also be more worthwhile than pay considering many marshals travel long distances. Whereas the drivers can arrive and leave as they please the marshals have to be there from start to finish.

With reference to your comments reference Timekeepers, it seems you do not really know the what you are talking about with reference to Timekeeping.
Firstly all Timekeepers are staff of a company called MST Timing (or other similar companies), and what actually happens is a club, for example BARC, BRSCC hires out all equipment needed for a meeting (including TP, Transponders, Beams, Laptops and MINIMAL staff to run the equipment, which on average is 6 people, whom are also judges of fact - so yes we are paid but by MST Timing we get a set rate for the day plus travel expenses, however we are also not getting many new comers). As this includes supplying transponders, the driver/club does not have to pay the full cost of a trandsponder. So when you say BARC are running on transponders they are getting these from MST Timing and paying them for the use of them and they also need our equipment for downloading the data and running the system.
Perhaps you should look in race control instead!!! They get plenty out of motorsport!!
This is coming from a Timekeeper and I am also an Incident Marshal (member of the BMMC). I do agree that Marshals should actually get something for there time eg breakfast or a fiver/tenner to go towards travel expenses.
Lisa (my wife)

Why does someone want to be a marshall? Up at 5am or so to stand around in the freezing cold trying to prevent adrenaline junkies from piling into each other, putting up with verbal diahorrhea from those that they have rescued from the fray. Trying to stay alert through even the really boring races and not able to leave for home until all the races are over.

As I have never marshalled I have no idea what I am talking about but as a driver I have been rescued by some truly wonderful people in orange overalls. Although the ones at Oulton Park were peeved at having to run so far to get me.

I never fail to add a fiver to my race entry fee for the marshalls fund but does the money go where it belong, I ask? The Competition Secretary does look awfully well dressed and his car is always the latest model.......just kidding!

I can't see how paid marshalls could possibly be any better than the ones we have now, but some hot breakfast on a dark, cold, rainy October morning at Snetterton would seem to be an incentive worth having. Especially at the prices they charge.

Think of it like this , if we pay marshals ;

1)How much ?? If its say £5.00 per hour then from 8:00am to 6.00pm if you're lucky thats £50.00 per head per day. Even with 30 marshals on circuit thats en extra £1,500. Then are we paying for skills , if so there will have to be a scale with novices on the bottom and Io's/ observers and rescue crews on the top.

Then how do we tell the tax man???

2) If we are paid then we are "employees" so all manner of health and safety legislation applies. So no longer can you miss a training session.

Good news would be that no longer would you have to shell out for overalls etc , these would all have to be supplied by you employer the organising club.

Bad news is that there would have to be a disciplinary code of connduct etc. If you sleep it in you may have disciplinary action.

3) This is where it gets interesting for the CoC. I can only speak from the Irish perspective but you will know have to consider the European working time directive which allows people to only work a certain number of hours per week. Leaving people out in the rain/ cold for 10hrs at weekends on their second job may end up being against the law.Furthermore your primary employer has responsabilities to ensure that he complies with legislation. If you come in tired from your second job he may relieve you of your first!!

Solution: Continue with a voluntary system but consider why people volunteer and what makes them leave. It is interesting to see that anti-social nature of race days is a problem world wide. Ie leaving at 07:00am and not getting home till 8:00pm, if you have small children you will not be popular. Organising clubs take not.

MuppetRescue

" Why don't you get things started !!"

Darrell,

Every meeting I've been to with you has involved you having a sensible start time even if everyone else is there on time!

;0)

Seriously though I think that as Rescue crew we are not really short of appreciation, typically what we do is high profile but on post all day dealing with all manner of incidents does not attract the same level of attention and seems therefore not to be as greatly appreciated.

I'm not sure that it isn't appreciated but the "Thanks for all your help" from Race Control at the end of the day always seeems a bit bland and scripted. Not really sure how to fix that within the time constraints but certainly something needs to be done.

Martin

In answer to the point made by Red Dog regarding why do we ever bother to marshal. It's simply that we all love motor racing! Actually there is a small bonus if you think about it, no one stands in front of you during the race so the view is unobstructed hahaha.

The point about the fiver is also valid. I can only speak for the guys at Brands Hatch, but we do get a decent raffle at the end of each day. Maybe we should dispence with the raffle and give everyone a £5 meal voucher?

I don't remember who but somebody once said that Marshals are all frustrated racing drivers!

Having seen what I've seen I'm not sure I fancy racing at all!!

On another note, why is it that the higher profile the series they race in the more ignorant of Marshals most drivers seem to be?

Well i for one would appreciate being paid,or to put it another way, have a contribution put my way .Living in Hertfordshire, for me to travel to Oulton Park, costs me £ 35 plus food for the weekend.I am also self employed so add on lost earnings for the saturday, you are talking about a figure of £ 200 .I would obviously not expect the full cost of traveling to be met, but at least a few quid to go back in the tank would be nice.Bearing in mind the amount of races i cover as a marshal, usually participating on both sat and sun plus the odd bank holiday, it costs me a small fortune.The reason i do what i do is for the pleasure it gives me. What i have noticed over the past, is marshalls attitudes to the poor facilities we have to endure week in week out.We all talk about it , but we do nothing about it.What a mad mad bunch of skilled and somewhat over looked people we all are !

Originally posted by Teletubby

Seriously though I think that as Rescue crew we are not really short of appreciation, typically what we do is high profile but on post all day dealing with all manner of incidents does not attract the same level of attention and seems therefore not to be as greatly appreciated.

I'm not sure that it isn't appreciated but the "Thanks for all your help" from Race Control at the end of the day always seeems a bit bland and scripted. Not really sure how to fix that within the time constraints but certainly something needs to be done.

Martin

I quite agree that being on rescue we do tend to receive more appreciation than marshals on the bank receive which I think comes from having more direct contact with the powers that be on a raceday.

The structure is there at most circuits with the normal lines of communication. Perhaps a debrief session after dealing with an incident would allow the clerks to show some of their appreciation of a job well done and would also assist with training, increasing confidence of the team and would maybe help with their motivation.

Originally posted by Teletubby
On another note, why is it that the higher profile the series they race in the more ignorant of Marshals most drivers seem to be?

Not to mention more ignorant of officals, and more ignorant of spectators and fans.. Thankfully, there are one or two at the higher levels of the sport that are the exception to this rule. They know who they are :)

Incidentally, do marshals enjoy drivers waving to them, like on the warm up and slow down laps?

Hi Chris,

The answer to your question of waving is Yes. There is nothing I detest more than standing there waving and clapping the drivers after a good race and they wander by completely ignoring us. It actually starts in the lower formula with the younger drivers, so maybe someone in race control might nudge the little buggers about manners?

As for the comments made in a previous post about the conditions we all suffer. This subject has been discussed at length in my Yahoo Club and there really sin't an easy answer. The BMMC who are supposed to represent us have precious little influence with circuit owners despite there being a working party within Octagon for example, to which the BMMC have been asked to make representations. It was suggested that I write to the likes of Jackie Stewart and the MSA to argue our point, but I feel to get involved with 'splinter groups' is often counter productive.

However, at the end of the day, conditions are appaling for many of us, especially in the winter months. Try running to the scene of an accident carrying an extinguisher and dodging rabbit warrens or pot holes at the same time as keeping your eye on all that is happening around you. In the winter we are left to provide plastic sacks to keep our bags and equipment dry, why couldn't there be huts big enough to put our bags in and also to stand in between races to keep dry? I/we could go on adinfinitum but then my heart rate would go up and the heart attack would be that much closer.

It might even be a good idea for some of the drivers to mention issues like this from time to time at club meetings? IT surely can't do any harm!

Stephen.

Originally posted by scottball75
Ahh, the old payment debate.....

I dont think that we should be paid, for what we do. Getting expences, meals & overals paid for etc is probably the way forward I think.

Actually, that's the sort of thing I had in mind with my "clubs" thread.

Peter, from the conversations I have had with other marshals, I think you are right and that it is the small considerations we would like to see. Maybe a meal voucher, storage places for our bags in the dry, being able to park our cars close to the track, transport to the post on long circuit meetings, and lastly a little respect from some of the organisers. Toca are particularly snobby and snooty when it comes to being aware of marshals.

We all forget one very important factor. No motor race could take place without the marshals who give their time so freely. It really is about time a few organisations took note of that fact!

Stephen.

OK, how about this:

Overnight hotel accommodation.
£10 expenses for each day's racing.
Packed lunch.
A couple of club t-shirts a season.

Sounds like an impossible dream?

It's what Bemsee, the bike racing club, does for its marshals.

.....and their race meetings are some of the best-organised I've marshalled at.

Funny , same thing here for bikes in Ireland. First person to meet you is the CoC who thanks you for coming, gives you a doggy bag and a lunch voucher. Last person you see before you leave is the CoC saying thankyou very much.

Bikes never seem to struggle for marshals , funny that isn't it!!

Last season I marshaled 2 bike meetings to see what it was like. 1 at Combe and 1 at Brands for a club called BEMSEE( I think thats what they are called). At sign on you recieved a packed lunch of good quality £5 and if you signed on before 08:00 you got a free breakfast.
This I thought was a nice gesture then you got on post.
Although there was a good number of marshals for a club meeting on every post the downside was the standard of marshaling I witnessed was poor. Our corner commander kept going to sleep or was reading his book during races. Also he could not grasp the idea that we put the red flag out when we saw the red lights go on during races indeed a couple of post didnt bother. I counted in our vicinety of 4 posts we were the only flag point to use the blue flag.
So to sum up I agree that we as 4 wheel marshals have a lot of problems to sort about conditions and there always seems to be more bike marshals at there meetings but even though they have more incentives with breakfast,s etc there standards seem to be very low.
We should be given some form of travel expense and most definetly a free breakfast at every circuit but our standard are alot higher and better.
Richard Sneader...

Originally posted by rzsio396

Although there was a good number of marshals for a club meeting on every post the downside was the standard of marshaling I witnessed was poor.
Richard Sneader...

I do both cars & bikes, so I've got a good basis for comparison.
I'd have to say that, on the whole, bike marshalling standards are not up to car levels. There are two grading systems for bike marshals - ACU & Racesafe (Racesafe is the outfit which marshals BSB, WSB & GPs). The ACU system is very slack - I had two ACU licences last year, two different grades! Racesafe is better, but not much. I think some bike marsahals are only doing the job to see racing for free!

Flagging is an interseting point. For bikes there are no specialist flag marshals - it's just something everybody does. Racesafe stipulates that to upgrade to experienced incident marshsal six flagging signatures are required.

There was some discussion of blue flagging on the Bemsee forum last year. A rider complained about the lack of blue flags at one meeting. A very good point made by one of the marshals was that at that particular meeting they had been short of flag marshals & if there is only one flag marshal at a flag point, then (s)he must give priority to the yellow flag, which means looking down the track facing away from the racing. Personally, I find blue flagging very difficult...in fact, flagging in general requires a very high level of concentration.

As someone who marshals for both bikes and cars I have found that the grading and training systems for cars much more structured. I have, however, met many marshals who started off in cars and have now moved over to bikes because there is better racing in bikes.

It would be interesting to hear from other marshals who do both bikes and cars as to their opinions of the comparisons in the standard of bike and car marshalling.

I have only done a car and bike meeting combined once, many years ago at Brands, and I dare say things have changed a great deal since then. The biggest shock I got was the bike marshals were wearing shorts, T shirts and trainers! There was me in full fireproof undies, orange overals and boots (very fetching of course!). The other thing that worried me a great deal was, that when there was an incident, the yellow flag marshal ran trackside standing at the scene of the accodent waving his flag like a madman.

Now call me daft if you like, but the guy was putting himself in great danger by doing this, and of course he forgets that all curcuits have licensed marshals posts, at which the relevant signals are supposed to be displayed from. hence the green flag lap, to let drivers/riders know where the marshals points are on the circuit!

On the subject of Bike marshals There was the BSB incident at Warwick Bridge at Oulton last year where( witnessed on telly) when the marshals were retrieving a bike after an incident the leaking fuel caught light causing 1 marshal with no gloves on to move his hands extrememly fast and do a unique waving hands dance. Watching bike racing on telly yesterday on Moto+ on Sky I noticed that some of the marshals on post 5 Devils Elbow at Lydden were sat down during the races.
I am not saying car marshals are perfect, we are not as we have our fair share of them who choose to play using there own rules however We do seem to install higher standards and dicipline track side and yes we always were overalls and gloves in all weathers.( you would have to be a fool not to).Our training seems to be of a higher standard.
I personaly after my own couple of experiences doing bike meetings will never do a bike meeting again. I just couldnt trust the teams I was with.
At Combe last year for the MRO meeting in May I was on Bobbies out. During the green flag lap and the first lap our corner commander was on top of the protective mound with his cam corder filming.
I rest my case...
Richard Sneader...

Originally posted by rzsio396
On the subject of Bike marshals There was the BSB incident at Warwick Bridge at Oulton last year where( witnessed on telly) when the marshals were retrieving a bike after an incident the leaking fuel caught light causing 1 marshal with no gloves on to move his hands extrememly fast and do a unique waving hands dance.


Funny you should mention that!

I've just come back from a Racesafe training day at Oulton. The video of that incident was shown several times, much to the embarassment of the marshal concerned! It may be worth pointing out that he marshals cars as well as bikes.....

Oooops! The main thing is that we ALL learn from his/her mistake.

I have been at a number of bike meetings, crewing a Rescue Unit and while I wouldn't want to criticise anybody who gives up their time for free I feel that possibly some of the Marshals seem to take enormous risks by going trackside during racing to retrieve/remove debris.

Very scary to watch!!!

Originally posted by Teletubby
I feel that possibly some of the Marshals seem to take enormous risks by going trackside during racing to retrieve/remove debris.

For that, you can blame the great god television. Mustn't interfere with their schedules!

In bike racing generally, especially at BSB level & above, it is accepted that marshals work on a live track. Debris removal is much more important for bikes, I think, than for cars - the consequences of a bike hitting it it are far more serious than they would be for a car.

Having said that, I would have to agree that a lot of bike marshals cross the line between acceptable risk & downright dangerous.

It's the downright dangerous that worries me Dave. I'm still at a loss to know why national training days can't encompass both bike and car marshals, and are the bike guys licensed by the MSA as we are?

Originally posted by Stephen Green
It's the downright dangerous that worries me Dave. I'm still at a loss to know why national training days can't encompass both bike and car marshals, and are the bike guys licensed by the MSA as we are?

Well, maybe 'downright dangerous' was overstating the case, but I've seen silly things, like marshals sitting on tyre walls during racing, marshals wearing trainers, IOs photographing incidents, etc,.

The 'headless chicken' approach to incidents is all too common at bike meetings - immediately a bike goes down, everybody on the post rushes to deal with it, crossing the track if necessary, leaving nobody to watch the track & to deal with a possible second incident. Taking a fire extinguisher to an incident is rarely seen.

The basic problem, from my perspective as someone who also does car marshalling, is that bike marshalling lacks discipline. It's very rare for an IO/sector marshal/corner commander to brief his team, designation of duties is all too often on the basis of 'I'll do this....', & the grading systems don't reflect marshals' abilities & experience.

Motorcycle racing is controlled, in the loosest sense of the word, by the ACU, an organisation which makes the MSA look good!:rolleyes:

The ACU licences marshals, but marshals for British Superbikes, & World Superbikes & GPs in the UK, are supplied by Racesafe, which has its own licences & grading system. In neither case is the grading system as rigid or comprehensive as the MSA's. Racesafe's training is good; ACU training is left to individual clubs so it is of variable quality.

Joint training would, I think, in many ares, be advantageous, & it does happen to a small extent in such things as fire training. First we've got to get rid of the car marshals' attitude that bike marshals are cowboys & the bike marshals' attitude that car marshalling is over-regulated & snobbish.

I have done a number of bike meetings in the past and it always concerns me to see marshals sitting whilst there is action on the track. Having seen how far debris can fly it is important for a marshal to be aware at all times and to be able to move quickly when necessary. As for collecting debris from the track many car marshals have been required to do this and as long as there is consideration for the traffic (helped by good communication within the team) then this can normally be carried out safely and if it considered too dangerous then to ere on the side of caution is the best tactic.
As for using cameras whilst on duty I had to tell a young marshal at Combe to put away his camera as he was about to take a few pics of the first lap of the second F3 race last year. He looked at me quite surprised :eek: at this instruction especially when asked if he had seen the incident which happened in the first race; to which he replied he hadn't. I rest my case!

Maybe it's about time that the ACU and Racesafe got together rather like the MSA and the BMMC and came up with a regulated marshalling structure. The last thing ANY of us wish to see are marshals gettinginjured, be they car or bike marshals.

Originally posted by Stephen Green
Maybe it's about time that the ACU and Racesafe got together rather like the MSA and the BMMC and came up with a regulated marshalling structure. The last thing ANY of us wish to see are marshals gettinginjured, be they car or bike marshals.

The very existence of Racesafe is, in my opinion, a comment on the way the ACU runs the sport.......:rolleyes:

I do not think marshals should be paid. the marshals that do it just now do it for the love of the sport, if you started paying people then real lovers of the sport would not get to do it because spaces would be filled by people just after the money. When i tell people what i do the first thing they usually ask is do you get paid, when you say no they are not interested. Tony B

Hi Tony and welcome to 10-10ths. And what a great first post, I couldn't agree more :)

Here, here.

May I join Marshal in welcoming you to ten-tenths.

Stephen.

Tony B - what an excellent attitude! I completely agree with you but my vote does not count so strongly as I see things from the other side of the barrier. I hope you enjoy marshalling as much as I do driving. The speed that you guys respond to an incident is truly comforting. I have given many a flag marshall's arm a bit of exercise recently, thankfully not the ones holding the red flag! Generally yellow (waved) and blue (waved frantically!)

My brother does quite a bit of marshalling (as well as some driving) and he would love a contribution towards his expenses, but he won't stop marshalling if none are forthcoming, because he enjoys it. Mind you, his orange overalls are fading to a very fetching pink. Hmmmm, all of this stuff is making me feel guilty at not having done any marshalling.....yet.

Red Dog, you are welcome to join us on the banks at any time, overals of all colours are permitted :rotate:. Which series do you drive in and will you be visiting Brands this year?

For me my biggest expense would be the damn Severn Bridge !! Ok it's only 4-quid something but add that up through the season and it's a fair amount. You'll all think it's my own fault for living in Wales but we all have our own individual faults !!!

Paying marshal's is a big no no. We must love the sport to be involved with it in the first place. Perhaps a decent T-shirt or Cap or some help towards overalls or equipment would be nice.

Well Mr Ramsden, I promise not to mention sheep! :rotate:

Seriously though, you echo the sentiments of the majority of marshals. I live in Kent and so if we wish to marshal anything north of the Thames (foreign lands indeed) we are faced with coughing up for the QE2 Bridge as well!

Take care and welcome to the forums!

Stephen.

I'm pretty sure we ought to charge you for LEAVING Wales and entering a civilised country!!

Oh dear, I can see this degenerating into an England Wales rugby scrum!

Stephen

I am due to visit your home circuit on 27th or 28th April, to which I am seriously looking forward. I find Paddock Hill Bend is a quite a challenge and I am told by last year's championship winner that one approaches with the throttle nailed to the floor, and only allowing a 'chicken lift' to aid turn in. Ha Ha Ha! (I will be braking at the hundred yard marker as I have no desire to spoil the neatly raked gravel.

My car is a 750 formula and is metallic mid blue with orange 'rash' and cycle guards. If I can't afford to drive I'll have to join you.

I look forward to seeing you there. I think I'm down to marshal that one, if not I will try to make a special effort. Before they altered Paddock Hill Bend gravel trap you used to aim for the marshals post and turn in at the last minute. Ok for you drivers, bloody scary for us marshals hiding behind the armco!

I'm in no position to mention sheep or Rugby.

Talking about civilised countries both the severn bridges are owned by the bloody french !!!

Having read all your comments, I can only assume that none of you have ever been to Loton Park for some Speed Hillclimbing. Let me enligthen you about this somewhat unique venue:

Camping: Free
Toilets: Clean and serviced
Signing-On: 08:15 ish (including free tea or coffee)
Briefing: C of C/Chief Marshal/Doctor & Course Controller brief ALL marshals as to what is expected of them and about any previous issues.
On Post: Waterproof sheds on all posts with car parking
Lunch: 1hr & Free!!
End of runs: 99% of drivers express some gratitude as they pass after their last run.
Finish: 5 to 5:30 ish
Bar: under orders to stay open as long as "orange bods" are around plus drivers often buying the beer.

And people wonder the first dates in my diary are those of the British and Midland Hillclimb Championships??????

N

Regarding liscencing for bike and car marshals, i think in the future there will be a change. we had race safe at the BRDC training day giving a talk.It was mentioned at the the end of the day, would we if asked , be prepaired to marshal at superbike events ? Not this year , but watch this space.........

No...the organisation of a rally/race already costs a lot. Many people are willing to volunteer to do marshalling (they will see the race for free). You can even get your accomodation via the organisation + transport. So why ask for money as well...would only make sports even more expensive and at some point a track/organisation can't pay anymore and it's over and NOONE can marshall anymore

Hi everyone, I have never read this part the forum it looks like you are all from the other side of the world though. :)
I am an official here and have been for several years. I do not expect to get paid for 'my hobby'. I do have a problem though with our major events with the V8 supercars, some officials get their accomodation paid for while all the others have to pay, normally a lot of money for their own. How this can be fair is beyond me.

well...i know that over here in Europe most of the time accomodation is only paid when you have to start early (in rally let's say first SS of the day) and you're not close to your home. Others that have to do stages that will start later during the day have the chance to wake up on normal time and go there.

No it is the top senior officials that get theirs paid for, mind you they are only volunteers also.

ok...i get your point. And problem is those 'seniors' delegate most tasks to juniors as well and do less and get most.

Or they kick other seniors (who pay for accomodation) butts.

i have started marshalling with any degree of regularity only ni teh last few months. Since the RAC I have done 7 events I think during university terms.

I am willing to marshal for free so long as we are not asked to pay to get into the later stages. For example, I was on an early stage on the Wydean and we decided to go watch the last stage at chepstowe. we eventually got in but the woman on the gate was trying to make us pay £10 pounds a head to watch 1 stage that consisted of 2 chicanes, 2 straights and an open hairpin. NOT LIKELY

Provide a packed lunch or even a cheap brolly (someone can sponser a rally with them PLEASE) and I will be happy. Dont want money, then my hobby will become another job!!!

In today's Motorsport News it says that Marshalls with the Jaguar Car Club will be paid £10 for each meeting they cover. It was claimed that the move was after discussions with the drivers (wouldn't have seen that being a problem anyway), and the money was raised by moving the backing from one of the championships.

In terms of gratitue, I think you get more when you are Hillclimbing, especially when I have done it at Gurston Down on the Top Paddock. I think it is because you do more (starting/pushing cars) rather than on a circuit race when people just drive past!

2 years ago on the RAC, our stage commander gave the FIA/MSA representative a huge bo**ocking for making some snide comment about us standing out in teh rain for 2 stages to make the rally happen. It was pointed out that it would be a really good idea if he should thank us in the future. All he has to do is say thankyou 17 times in our case and he would have covered almost every marshall...

all this was to no avail as this year he again failed to thank us for our contribution. (5 days worth of missed lectures (setting up), an exhaust a bumper, trench foot and a complete soaking).

All he would have had to say is thanks and it would have made it much more worthwhile, but instead my friends and I felt that we were expected to be there and for that don't deserve gratitude.

As a result next year I will think long and hard before heling with the RAC.

oh, the jag thing. Is that for Jag C.C. events or any event where they supply marshalls?

1. I am sorry you have been treated thus either at a circuit meeting or a rally.


2. I understand that the payment is for any marshal who is there on the day

I've read the Jaguar car club is going to be paying thier marshals £10 per dayat it's meetings in 2002 David Kane competition secretary said it was time to give back something to those who help most.maybe this is the way every motor racing organisation thinking,you know a token gesture to show thier support to the guys on the front line as it were.(now you've read this who's thinking of going to JCC,LOL).

It's nice to see that someone else here has done Speed Hillclimbing and realises just how appreciative the drivers and clubs are. Not only do we get more money on average, plus free food or beer or both, but the drivers do make a point of thanking us. Now, I'm not suggesting for one second that that's why we do it but, at the end of a wet day, with nothing to do because no-one went off at your post, it is nice to see the drivers returning from the top of the hill with a wave,parp of the horn or flash of lights to say "thank-you". Makes all the difference. You might even find them in the bar, wallet ready, waiting for the orange bods!! I have had 8 pints after a meeting (the missus was driving!!), and had to buy the last one !!! Hillclimbing is a social event that has cars involved!! Very fast cars and committed drivers but, they are there for fun just as we are and they know it!

Originally posted by DarrellB
(how much are the overalls, boots etc. which all come out of the marshal's own pocket)travel allowances etc and maybe even a well done now and then!


Just on this, I wrote an article a while ago called "A driver's guide to marshals" that actually totted up this cost - if anyone is intersted, you can find it on the MRMCI website in the articles section and it was also published on The Grid.

For basic kit (ovies, boots, gloves, raingear, batbelt belt cutters and basic first aid kit and a good supply of latex gloves) it works out at just over IR£200 (that's old money!) This translates to approximately STG£150 I think. Naturally that's the basic kit - it doesn't include any of the other bits and bobs that we accumulate over time.

Originally posted by Dave Brand


Well, maybe 'downright dangerous' was overstating the case, but I've seen silly things, like marshals sitting on tyre walls during racing, marshals wearing trainers, IOs photographing incidents, etc,.

The 'headless chicken' approach to incidents is all too common at bike meetings - immediately a bike goes down, everybody on the post rushes to deal with it, crossing the track if necessary, leaving nobody to watch the track & to deal with a possible second incident. Taking a fire extinguisher to an incident is rarely seen.<snip>

First we've got to get rid of the car marshals' attitude that bike marshals are cowboys & the bike marshals' attitude that car marshalling is over-regulated & snobbish.

I marshal cars and bikes and I won't argue that the training I got for cars was a lot more comprehensive than bikes. But as Dave quite rightly says, Bike Marshals do get a lot of stick from car marshals and a lot of car marshals can be downright condescending to bike marshals.

Just to clarify a few points that I've picked up myself from doing both:
1. With cars, you wait and see what happens. With bikes, you tend to move almost straight away because once they're down in a gravel trap they're unlikely to be getting out again. I do agree that more attention could be paid to what's coming at you - but frankly, I can say that about quite a few car marshals I know as well. An experienced bike marshal of 5 years or more service is very likely to have experienced either a fatality or a life threatening injury to a rider at least once in their marshalling career, and all the bike marshals I know are totally focussed on the rider. In Ireland, biking is a small community and everyone knows everyone - so there is a personal element as well. I don't know if this applies in the UK.
2. I have seen the "headless chicken" approach on TV but I have never seen it at my own circuit. I have also seen the "headless chicken" approach to cars on TV. And I HAVE seen that at my own circuit. Like any form of marshalling, you are dependent on the Chief Marshal and IOs on the day. If you get one that's possibly not as management oriented as you would like, then you'll have problems. The other thing is that most of the ones I've seen on TV are usually a good 5-10 years old. And I think everyone would agree marshalling has evolved a lot over the last 10-15 years.
3. Silly things are certainly not confined to bike marshals. I've seen experienced marshals without gloves attending incidents; marshals foaming people because they were messing with their extinguishers; I've even had the experience of seeing an ex-marshal of some years experience charging up the side of the track with his back to the traffic in his runners and his green shirt and bouncing up and down off the bank like Zebedee on speed - which caused me no end of problems as I was the preceding flag post. Silly things happen and all you can do is ensure they don't happen again - and just hope the cameras aren't capturing it for the purpose of it being shown on Men and Motors every 3 weeks as part of "Havoc Nite".
4. In general, the fire risk for bikes is lower than cars and you can have a lot further to run. The extinguisher debate goes on and I'm on the fence for the moment - if I'm running a post I try to ensure that my extinguishers are in easy reach and I make a judgement call each time I have an incident. I wouldn't do this for cars I'll admit. But if I have a guy with his helmet stoved in at my feet in the gravel trap and the bike is in a safe position, the rider is my priority.

This has turned into a longer post than I expected, but having encountered quite a lot of this bike vs car snobbery, I get very irritated by it. Particularly when as soon as there is a big event and they're short of marshals, who do they expect to come in and dig them out...?

EPW I agree completely with you about this car versus bikes snobbery.

Some good points there, EPW!

The only thing I'll comment on is the fire extinguisher issue. For cars, the rule is always 'bottle to every incident'. For bikes, there's less emphasis on the fire extinguisher. Part of the reason, I think, is that if a car crashes there's a chance that the driver may be trapped or unconscious - fire in such circumstances presents a serious risk to the driver. When a bike crashes, on the other hand, the rider normally ends up some distance from the bike. (Sidecars can be an exception!).

Mind you, when I saw petrol drippng from the tank onto the hot exhaust of a bike I was propping up against a straw bale I shouted for a bottle pretty forcefully!

Yep totally agree Dave. I know that Mr. EP had an interesting one last year where the fuel tank came off the bike and they found the rider happily dragging it back towards the rest of the bike, leaving a nice trail of fuel behind him - and all over him - as he tried to reattach it....! They didn't actually foam him, but I personally would have been tempted - if only to make sure he didn't do it again! ;)

In an ideal world, a bottle to every incident, no matter what, would be preferred. But if the rider is well away from the bike, the rider is going to be the priority - unless you have enough people on your post to handle everything at once - which isn't the case as much as I would like. I will be the first to admit I'm not particularly fit and if I have to run to check on a rider, I don't need extra weight apart from my own to carry with me! ;)

Cars, Bikes, Karts! It's all good! Especially if you're a Magnet! ;)

Originally posted by EvilPumpkin

3. Silly things are certainly not confined to bike marshals. I've seen experienced marshals without gloves attending incidents; marshals foaming people because they were messing with their extinguishers;

Just to clarify the above, the incident I'm referring to happened LAST season and I probably should have said "powdered" as it wasn't actually a foam extinguisher.

Just for anyone who may be taking things out of context and passing them on to others - or reading things into them that aren't there.

Im a flaggy from Australia and I'm finding some of the stuff written here very interesting.

i have a few questions for the marshals, who do circuit racing events. In your neck of the woods, whats considered basic equipment. The club I volunteer with have a minimum requirement of white ankle to wrist overalls and covered footware. They also encourage you to have a pair of gloves (general industrial type gloves ie cheap leather would suffice) a whistle and notebook and pen. They also prefer if you purchase (at a subsidised price) there Orange and white uniform overalls, that I might add are cotton, but not approved fireproof. Other equipment, like belt cutters, additional gloves, CPR face masks are supplied at each flag piont.

The reason I ask, is there has been a lot of talk of fireproof equipment here, which in our case, is only required and worn by fire marshalls.

Oh and in regards to us been paid. I would never expect it. It would be nice, at times to have accomodation and transport subsidised, but hey we get the best seats in the house( generally!!!) and free entry, so who am I to complain. (not forgetting the free clensing ales that are supplied at the BBQ at the end of the events (all in moderation of cause!)

The MRMCI requirement (Ireland) is for Proban treated overalls (Proban being a fire retardant treatment over cotton) sturdy (preferably steel-capped) boots and appropriate gloves. Oh and rain gear!

Most of the other things like whistles, notepad, belt cutters etc. would be things we would acquire, but are not compulsary day 1.

Originally posted by hoffy
The reason I ask, is there has been a lot of talk of fireproof equipment here, which in our case, is only required and worn by fire marshalls.


We need to get the correct terminology here! The overalls most marshals in the UK wear are not fireproof , they are fireretardant. What that means in practical terms is that if exposed to flame, the material will char rather than burn. As I see it, they protect in two possible situations; firstly, a crashed car bursting into flame unexpectedly, secondly, while a small fire is being dealt with.

LOL - one of the things that is routinely done at our training is the Marshals' Mantra :)

"repeat after me - Marshals are not FIREPROOF"

*waves to muppetrescue*

Hmmmm, very interesting.

Is this a UK (and Ireland) thing, or is it an FIA thing?

what, the not being fireproof? ;)

Irish marshals tend to be multi-tasking rather than specifically being a flag marshal or a fire marshal - some people do specialise but most of us don't, so I think it makes sense for us to be kitted for both duties rather than just the one.

As for whether there is any FIA (or RIAC) requirement surrounding this, I don't actually know - muppetrescue would be better placed to answer that one - he is the keeper of the rules.

we shouldn't be paid but a bit more respect and courtesy wouldn't go a miss! especially from the big event organisers.:(

Jeff, Totally agree, the lower grade of meeting equals more appreciation from the club, and normally better racing. The organiseras of higher grade meetings could learn a lot from 750 and MGCC.
Mearshals that are there for the love of motorsport are more alert, ask the 2 marshals at the 750 meeting at Donington that had the hot hatch in the debris fence at the end of a long day.

Pete Howarth

Pete are you suggesting that marshals who get(payment)are not as alert as those who don't.some motorracing assosiations have decided on paying marshals this year.I marshaled for years at my local circuit(KARTS)west of scotland kart club.and I get a payment,although this was'nt always the way used to be refreshments and a meal was provided(all you could eat)4yrs ago the commitee,with the aproval of members decided that a small token payment was issued as a thank you for all our efforts which is apriciated by all us marshals it helps with expenses,lunch,drink(tea)and maybe a few beers after the meet.I still do it for the love iwould do it(again)for free.being payed has'nt changed my commitment to,the club,drivers,members or motorsport.a little richer maybe,,OH BUGGER!!!my merc's been stolen!!LOL..be safe

stevie, I don't know if that's what Pete's suggesting, but I have to say that the paid marshals I've met have undergone far less training and really don't seem to take it seriously.

This is not to say that all paid marshals are like that - just the ones I've met.

The attitude seems to be very much "for £5 an hour, you're lucky I even stay awake"

(ps)I've not voted on the poll I think that might be a little bit hipocritical of me,however I do have a opinion....IF certain racing organisations wish to give marshals a small payment for all thier efforts,I don't belive that would change anything,personnaly or otherwise..YES or NO I'll be honest it does'nt matter..be safe

EP £5hr,those guys are'nt marshals,thier just out to see what they can get the "I'm alright all right Jack"mentality.£5hr ha!ha!ha!ha!!£5per day more like..be safe

I marshall at rallies and dont expect to get anything. It makes a nice surprise when we do get something (usually a small acked lunch).

I marshalled on the Wyedean rally and was happy enough not to have to pay to get into chepstow race course to watch the last stage.

I marshall as I get to put something into motorsport and I havfe met a load of people doing it. WHy I get up at 5am to stand up to my knees in bog water though is beyond me!!! :-)

Originally posted by imull

I marshall as I get to put something into motorsport and I havfe met a load of people doing it. WHy I get up at 5am to stand up to my knees in bog water though is beyond me!!! :-)

Back in my Catholic schooldays they used to teach us that if you offered up your suffering to the souls in purgatory, they'd get into heaven that bit quicker..... :rotate:

So technically, you could say that you're doing it for the good of the universe..........

Ok here's a follow on to this topic - what should you do if an organiser offers to pay you?

A few of us were at a Kart meet at Mondello on Sunday (which was great btw!) and after the meet, the Class Rep wanted to find some way to thank us for coming up. Firstly he wanted to pay us for the day, which we declined. Then he offered to make a donation to our main marshalling club - which we felt was inappropriate, since they hadn't organised it and we didn't want a precedent set that when we marshalled outside the Club, they were entitled to payment for us. Then he suggested buying us dinner (which would have been great except we were all dirty and tired and there was no restaurant in the world that was going to let us in!) Finally we decided on him buying us a round at the bar! :) Which was done and we all imbibed happily! :)

It was absolutely great that the IKC were prepared to go to these lengths to show their appreciation (and very refreshing to be so appreciated!) but I was completely unprepared for it and had no idea how to handle it - particularly as the other evil marshals that were with me (my so-called friends!) left me to deal with it on their behalf!!! (although they did indicate to me that they didn't want to be paid either!)

Does anyone have advice as to what one should ask for in these situations? Is there an etiquette for this?

Take his address and send him an expence claim? (I wouldn't want to take pay as Mr. Taxman has strange views about that)

Originally posted by EvilPumpkin
Ok here's a follow on to this topic - what should you do if an organiser offers to pay you?



I'd say thank you but no. Maybe just something to cover petrol, or as you did a drink :beer: :beer: :beer:

:) :) :)

I have always said that "if this was our paid job, we would all be looking for a new one". :)
You have to love it to do it.

totally agree with all of the above - I just worry about offending someone who genuinely wanted to show appreciation to marshals.

How about this,my granddad worked for the railway,when he retiered he was given free travel to any where in britain.Now say the motorsport orginasations let you in to thier venues free,I'm sure most of them won't miss the entry fee.So your not marshaling that weekend,"I think I'll pop down to donninton this weekend,see some of the guys,and WATCH!,the racing for a change".show your club card at the gate and have a nice time,'though it'll be strange just spectating after all these years.I would say that's a non offensive way to say thank you marshals.with no monies attached.

I think that's a great idea Stevie. Let all us 'olds' get free admission to the tracks when we are too old to marshal. Anyone who mentions my age last week is DEAD!

Hi Stephen, I don't think I've got round to saying welcome back :) Its a good point Stevie makes, and I do remember someone telling me that's exactly what happens in Brazil to Marshals who retire. I can't see that it'd cost the circuit owners much, as most of us are too stupid to take up such a good offer.... :bag:

Your as old as the woman you feel,
Well i don`t know if that counts for you Steven !!!

um...what if you don't generally make a habit of feeling women? :p

Feel a bloke instead!

Hey Rick, it definately counts for me as well, even at my time of life :)

Doreen
Unregistered User
(6/20/02 2:31:04 pm)
Reply Marshals
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Don't know if anyone has seen it but there is a topic on another forum debating whether marshals should be paid:www.ten-tenths.com/forum/...ls+be+paid

It also slags off marshals and corner commanders of some clubs (including Bemsee) regarding their antics!!





Dave Stewart
Unregistered User
(6/20/02 3:16:37 pm)
Reply W**kers!
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Yes, I've just read through the whole thread. Whilst there are a (very) few valid points, a lot of it is drivel written by wanabees who haven't got the nouse to actually get out there and fulfill their dreams.

Before a lot of our (well trained) marshals get hot under the collar reading through it, just think of this point.
Jealousy is a huge motivating force, they just want to be treated in the same fashion as you already are. But that will never happen as they are working for a bunch of good for nothing 'Hooray Henrys' who really couldn't give a stuff about them. If they were held in any regard by their own clubs the subject thread would never have been started, would it?

Any of our marshals got any complaints?


Didn't think so.

See you all at the weekend, where we can partake in such 'dangerous and irresponsible practices' as saving riders from injury and ensuring the track remains clear.

How silly of us to think that such things mattered.

"Oh b**llox one hasn't seen to it that the flags are starched and ironed again Horace!"

Dave
Unregistered User
(6/20/02 3:39:42 pm)
Reply Pass it on
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..and if any of you are registered to post on that other site, please pass on the above regards!
Also, tell Mr Sneader and pals not to come and avail themselves of our marshals benefits ever again.
Some people just aren't worth the ag.

BikerBob - which site is this from?

I'm a bike marshal as well as a car and a kart marshal and I take extreme exception to those comments. I spent last weekend in the ****ings of rain busting my ass getting bikes off the middle of the track whilst most of my sane countrymen were inside in the dry watching the match.

Before you start posting THIS kind of drivel, maybe you and your compatriates should get your facts straight. If anyone has the cojones to say to my face that I'm a "wannabe" then feel free to bring them over - or tell me where this **** came from.

I'll certainly make a point of remembering their comments the next time a bike meet is short of marshals, because if THAT is how I'm viewed, then frankly you can stuff it.

Hmmm biker bob from Kent - is this Chalkley again?

It all looks a little dubious to me. It was a Bemsee meeting at Brands hatch that the bike rider died the other week. I don't think for one minute that the marshaling members of Bemsee would behave in this manner?

Me thinks someone is trying to wind up the forum members here don't you?

Interesting topic which has been talked over many times before both in bike and car racing.
As someone who has been a car marshal and a bike marshal I can see all the points in previous replies are valid in their own right but the comments also remind me why I no longer do car marshalling!!
I feel that there is coming a time in all clubs where the need to provide a few simple thank you presents will be expected (meal voucher, small cash payment towards fuel, baseball caps, t-shirts, etc) to encourage marshals to return to the racing again. Considering costs of camping, fuel (mega expensive for an average weekend trip) and food costs at circuits I believe we will have money payments becoming the norm in the next few years.
As a bike marshal I have enjoyed these benefits for the last 4 years at EVERY meeting I have been to including Racesafe and Bemsee, EMRA and New Era meetings to name a few of the organising clubs. But in car marshalling I only once was given a thank you present which was £5 for contribution to my meal at Brands. I do not look for gratification to be a marshal of any motorsport but I am a regular marshal of a certain bike club where the Director of Racing personally thanks me for turning up and provides me with at least two meals a day and a bed and breakfast accomodation while away from our home tracks, on top of that I get a small cash payment towards my fuel cost!!
NOBODY I work with is treated any different in our club, we all get exactly the same treatment and it means that I constantly work alongside the same people week in week out because we have all become accustomed to each others ways of working on the trackside and can rely and trust each other in dangerous situations. This is bike marshalling I am talking about!! In contrast the guys who I usually worked with when I was a car marshal were not a good team as some were only there two weekends in the season, others a bit more regularly but I never felt safe working with them in dangerous situations.
All in all I'd say paying marshals small amounts of money and providing them with some goodies now and again actually brings them closer together and does not encourage free loaders as regulars DO spot those types a mile off as soon as they open their mouths about what they'll be getting for their troubles!!

Originally posted by Stephen Green
Me thinks someone is trying to wind up the forum members here don't you?

Muckraking is the term I'd use.

For those who don't know him, let me just say that Dave Stewart is a man who is very passionate about his sport & who has put a lot of hard work into making Bemsee the club it is today. Dave sets very high standards for himself & everybody - officials, riders, marshals, etc., involved with the club. It is only to be expected that he would react with passion to an accusation, relayed to him at second hand, that these high standards were not being met.

Just to give you an idea of the high regard in which Dave holds his marshals, Bemsee annually spends over £80,000 on benefits for its marshals, on top of over £6,000 training costs. If every club treated its marshals like Bemsee does there would be no marshal shortage.

And yes, I have what might be termed a vested interest here. Bemsee was the first club I marshalled for & I count many Bemsee members among my personal friends; my only regret is that geography prevents my marshalling at more than a few Bemsee meetings every year.

Like Dave Stewart, I came upon this thread through Doreen's posting on the BEMSEE forum. I'm a bike marshal and I mainly marshal with bemsee (although I do also marshal the odd RaceSafe meeting (i.e. bsb/wsb).

Firstly, I'd just like to agree with Dave Brand as to Dave Stewart's response - I know that he cares PASSIONATELY about the sport and more importantly, about EVERYBODY involved with the sport. When I first started reading the negative comments here with regards to BEMSEE marshals, I can quite see how Dave would have got upset as he shows us all a great deal of respect and looks on us as his friends. After all, wouldn't any of you get hot under the collar if you heard a friend being criticised?

BEMSEE meetings ARE run extremely efficiently, and safety is always of paramount importance.

I'm not saying we never make mistakes, of course we do, after all we're human. Lets face it, we all have our weak points - I know I do!!! But that's what working as part of a team is all about isn't it? God forbid that we should all be the same, with the same weaknesses and strengths!!

I would like to add that I'M VERY PROUD OF BEING A BEMSEE MARSHAL. I work with the same team of people weekend after weekend and that team does not just include other marshals but medics, officials, scrutineers and recovery alike - WE'RE ONE TEAM. I would trust my life into any one of their hands without hesitation.

BEMSEE marshals are trained to a very high standard, although, obviously, there is always room for constant improvement. I can honestly say that BEMSEE training is no less structured and thorough than a RaceSafe training day, and in some ways, more thorough.

In my view, marshal training is constant - personally, I learn something new at nearly every meeting I work.

After reading all of the comments here I have to say that the only person I took exception to was Richard Sneader. I really think that his negative viewpoint of BEMSEE comes from a complete lack of understanding. I think I know the corner commander/IO that he refers to (i.e. sleeping and reading books) and would just like to say that everybody has a different way of getting things done. Just because some may stand to attention all day and others may be more laid back, does not necessarily mean that when the s**t hits the fan, the one standing to attention will get the job done better than the more laid back guy. I've seen the sleeper/reader in action BIG TIME and he's one of THE most impressive marshals I've EVER seen. He's the type of guy you want around in a crisis. Sometimes it's wise to remember that everybody is different and we're not all cloned to work in a particular way (thank bloody god). Two of my biggest marshaling heros work completely differently to eachother - with neither of them playing by the rule book - but they're both STILL the best I've ever seen.

As to mentions of grading - personally, I prefer the idea that marshals are constantly endeavouring to work as safely and as efficiently as possible. Any decent IO/Corner Commander would be able to easily ascertain a marshals abilities at the beginning of the day by asking certain questions. Just because a marshal's of a particular grade does not mean an awful lot in my book - I've worked with marshals with masses of experience that I have not rated particularly highly and I've worked with other marshals with little experience that I have been thankful to have on corner with me.

EvilPumpkin - I can understand why you took offence, cos I'd probably have done the same, but I truly hope that you will not continue to take offence. I really don't think those comments were directed at marshals such as yourself at all. I read your comments and agreed with you 100% with regards to bike marshaling. Personally, I'd welcome having the opportunity to work on a corner with you sometime, so please don't rule BEMSEE out.

Apologies for ranting somewhat (I'm prone to it) - on the question of whether we should be paid or not, personally I voted that I didn't think we should be.

Whilst I fully appreciate the financial contribution to our expenses and other ways in which BEMSEE constantly help us, these are not the reasons I give my loyalties to BEMSEE. I choose to marshal because I LOVE the sport and I choose to marshal for Bemsee because I KNOW I'm working with a great bunch of people, who also care PASSIONATELY about the sport and the riders safety. I've yet to meet a race organiser that cares as much as Dave Stewart.

Thanks for listening.

Karen Higgens
(Trouble in orange)

Thought it might be a good thing to post a response made by Dave Stewart AFTER the previous one he made (incidently, the Dave he refers to in his post is Dave Brand):

_________________

Dave
Unregistered User
(6/20/02 5:36:35 pm)
195.93.48.154
As you know..
------------------------------------------------------------
.. I'm not a marshal. I still think of myself as a rider more than an official.
BUT
yeah, it's a big but
I was the one who decided, against the percieved wisdom of the Board of Directors, that marshals should be treated with respect. I started all of the schemes you mentioned in that thread Dave, because I really care about the welfare of the marshals and the riders alike.
Now that I've calmed down a bit, I can see that the majority of those contributing to that thread had a balanced view. Unfortunately, a couple of them just wanted to slate bike marshals and I thought it was an incredibly unfair statement, given that I know who the guy was marshaling with (and where).
Having watched him work at our bike meeting AND at a few car meetings here at Lydden (yes, I have to be here for those sometimes too) I can't think of very many people worse placed to dish out criticism.

You might want to point out to those slating others (from 2 or 4 wheels) that we spend over £6,000 on training for our marshals and over £80,000 on other benefits for the marshals.
I know this was the point you were making before this other twossock interceded with a load of unrelated and ill informed ****. Sorry if I fired off indiscriminatly, I know most marshals who dabble in a bit of both sides of the sport genuinely enjoy motorsport as a whole.
Car marshals ARE better trained on flags, but not to the extent some would like to believe. The balance in other direct intervention areas more than makes up for the shortfall on flags from our side.
Having said that, year on year it gets better (and so it should). Blue flags are now well used, even at most of our club meetings and practice will eventually make perfect.

Dave

(I quite liked the reply from the Irish guy at the end)

________________________________

Hmmm, such a lot to read and such a lot to digest in the above posts. Let me make my comments or add my two pennies worth as they say.

We are ALL marshals who do the job because we love motorsport, whether that be bikes or cars. We ALL work with good and less good marshals whether we marshal bike or car meetings. There should (in my humble view) be no distinction made between male and female marshals.

As to the debate on payment in whatever form, there has been a rather lengthy thread going in the Marshals Forum on this subject for some time, and I would urge you to read through that and then invite comment. I have my own vies on this matter and to most they are pretty well known.

The one thing we should ALL avoid, no matter whether our hearts lay with bike racing or car racing, is that we should not slag off each others clubs.

Having said all of the above, it is my personal view that there should be integrated training days, supported and funded by the organising bodies, so that marshals have the opportunity to learn the different skills involved in marshaling car/bike meetings. Maybe we should have more joint car and bike meetings, I for one enjoy watching bike racing enormously although in general I don't marshal for them (it's a time issue for me, not a them and us)?

Can I ask that we concentrate our efforts on helping to train those marshals who are 'less efficient' than we would like, while joining together to promote the sport we all love and live for. Let's not allow this to turn into a them and us situation.

Stephen Green
Observer.

Oooops. Please forgive me but I forgot to welcome Midge and Karen to Ten-Tenths. Please join in the discussions which are, in the main, lively and constructive, and enjoy your time with us. I hope you will both be active participants in the Marshals Forum which I co-host with Marshal.

Finally, I look forward to maybe meeting you both at a race track during the year.

Best wishes and safe marshaling,

Stephen.

Ok all comments duly noted and many thanks DB for messaging me to explain the situation.

Firstly thanks to the Bemsee members who've joined the forum for taking the time to come over. I would like to suggest a couple of things for you to suggest to those that didn't come.

If you hear of something being said - come and check for yourself - don't post flames based on second hand information. For every person here who posts something you didn't like, there are probably 10 people who support you - as those of you who've taken the time to read the thread have seen.

Don't post anonymously and then disappear - a la bikerbob. It just makes the whole thing look even more unpleasant.

That said, Hi Karen and Midge - nice to meet you! :) We (me and himself) are hoping we may be able to make a bike meet or two in the UK over the next few months so hopefully we'll run into you then :)

ps I ain't a lad, I'm a lass! :)

Hello

I would like to let you all know that I was the one responsible for bringing up the good/not so good marshals theme. After reading some of the comments made I became a bit incensed about a few of them and that is why I brought it to the attention of the forum of the club I belong to (Bemsee).

I would like to apologise to those marshals I have offended as I know the majority of them do a very good job and we would not be able to run race meetings (be it bikes or cars) without them.

I didn't realise it would stir up such a hornet's nest!!

Keep up the good work!

Doreen, I've been over to bemsee and all you did was post the thread which is totally understandable - any club that's being talked about would want to see what's being said. Nothing to apologise for hon and welcome to then nuthouse :)

Welcome Doreen,

I am of the opinion that as long as criticism is constructive, then it's of use. Say what you feel and welcome to Ten-Tenths!

I have worked with a number of car marshals in the past, and on the whole - I've enjoyed working with them. Not sure how relevant it would be to have joint training as, has already been pointed out - we have to work in very different ways. That said, I'd be interested in attending one of your training days as I believe there's no such thing as too much training.

I can understand that alot of car marshals don't like the fact that there are occasions when we need to go out on a live track, but we put alot of trust in the other marshals on the flags and directing traffic when we do this. When having to clear an area that is blind, Dave is in contact with the IO/Corner Commander on the radio, telling them when it is safe and when to pull back.

As to extinguishers, it's not always a viable option to carry out an extinguisher to every incident - in fact, more often than not it would be totally impractical. If you have a bike down and a rider to ensure is got to safety as quickly as possible and you have two or three marshals - one needs to deal with the rider and the other two with the bike (and in some cases, one gets the rider to safety and then goes back to help the other marshal with the bike). So you get the extinguisher out to the scene of the incident (normally in the middle of a gravel trap where other bikes may follow in). You can't leave the extinguisher there because the last thing you want is another bike hitting it. So how do you get it back? Obviously, the extinguishers are always scattered in places where you know you can find them and get at them as quickly as possible.

I had an incident a few weeks ago where it was just myself and another marshal and we had to run out to a field to retrieve a fallen rider - I saw what I perceived as smoke so I ran with the extinguisher. On arrival, we found it was steam - needless to say, on returning to safety, the rider had to help with the bike/extinguisher as I couldn't have left the extinguisher in the field (although I consider myself to be correct in taking it in the first place under the circumstances).

I agree completely that it should not be a them and us situation with regards to bike/car marshaling - we all LOVE the sport we marshal and there's no reason why we can't work together (albeit differently). As a bike marshal, I just ask that car marshals not judge us because we have to work differently.

Thanks for the welcome, and I look forward to maybe working with some of you in the future :)

Karen, I think we all appreciate there are different ways to deal with bike and car incidents and I firmly believe that until you have experienced both then it's not fair to make too many criticisms.

What I ask my marshals to do at car meetings, if we are short of bodies (more often than not these days I'm sorry to say), is to take the extinguisher with them to the scene of the accident, but then leave it behind the armco if they have to go trackside. By doing that it's not quite so far to run should you suddenly need the damn thing.

From your despription of events above, I wouldn't have done anything different despite being a car marshal :rotate:

Stey safe and once again a huge welcome to the site.

Stephen Green - I forgot to ask, you previously mentioned that you wear full fireproof undies ... I was wondering where you purchased them from because I'd be interested in purchasing a pair for myself (preferably in the form of an orange thong :) )

might have known that thongs would be mentioned somewhere.

Hi Karen,

Not sure about the thongs but try Advanced Wear and Safety in Ashford, Kent (near Ashford International Station) and I believe they do mail order if you know what size you need?

Hi all,

I'm not had chance to read all of this thread so I'll stay out of it...kinda.

All I was going to say was...As long as motorsport stays the number 1 priority then side issues can be got round..bike vs cars..not at croft most (not myself - I haven't got time) of the regular marshals do both.

as for payment...no I do this for love...some help sometimes(especially on long runs) is appriciated but not to be paid.

we have all sen examples of marshalling were we haven't agreed with the actions of others..sometimes it is wrong but as long as motorsport is our first priority then I hope that any such issues can be resolved without conflict..

Graham

Originally posted by Karen
(preferably in the form of an orange thong :) )

Four posts before you mentioned the thong.....you're no fun any more!:p

Karen, if you're good in a thong maybe you should consider modelling for Advanced Wear and Safety - they currently have a picture of a young lady attemping to look alluring in Nomex long johns and vest which is quite bizarre.

One has to ask the question - since a thong offers pretty limited protection in terms of area coverage, what exactly are you trying to protect... :p :laugh: :laugh:

And only YOU would be able to ask such a personal question! Of course we polite gentlemen wouldn't dream of being so bold :(

*snigger* yeah but you all THOUGHT it though ;)

Hi Folks
I'm new to this forum but I figure I'd give you my thoughts from this side of the pond.At my local track we don't get paid and I don't mind.I like the people I play with which for the most part includes the drivers and riders.We are treated very well free lunch and beer and munchies afterwards.I've gotten more tshirts in the last 4 years than I know what to do with.I love what I do but sometimes it wouldn't hurt to have some travel money.I'm a bit out of the way of everything else and I have a very long list of places I'd like to go.The thing is I think there is a shortage of marshals everywhere and paying us isn't going to solve that problem.The extra people you might get by paying them won't be there because they love what they're doing but because of the money and that could get dangerous for everyone involved.Although I do know of some places in the US that pays for working bike events.

One has to ask the question - since a thong offers pretty limited protection in terms of area coverage, what exactly are you trying to protect...

EvilPumpkin - have you never seen a forest fire???!!! They can spread and get out of control quite quickly. Better to be safe than sorry.

Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! Karen, that has to be one of the worst replies ever! The word razor springs to mind, but enough of that....:)

cdn girl a huge welcome to ten-tenths. Don't be put off by the smutty banter from the other people in the forum. Join in and give as good as you get :rotate:

Originally posted by Karen


EvilPumpkin - have you never seen a forest fire???!!!

......or a bush fire!!:eek:

Originally posted by Karen


EvilPumpkin - have you never seen a forest fire???!!! They can spread and get out of control quite quickly. Better to be safe than sorry.

ROTFLMAO :laugh: :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Ok you win - I can't top that :)

Blimey, a beaten Pumpkin...there's a first!

Yeah but you'll notice it took a woman to do it Stevo ;)

Ok, I submit, give in, cave in and all the other things men have to do regularly to/for women.

Always a thorny one this.. Personally after enduring 13 tax code changes in the last 7 months, the thought of having to declare an additional irregular income terrifies me!!!

But Seriously, I have always thought that the fact that we volunteer to stand out in the open come-what may is a sure sign of our committment.

Picture the scene: a wet and windy Donington (Not too difficult to imagine)

A lone marshal on post (again, not too ..... etc...)

You sidle up and ask him what on earth he is doing there.

Which answer would worry you?

A)"Freezing my b******s off".

or B)"It's a job innit?"

oh baby you know I love it when you get all submissive :p

*lays on the floor on his back waiting to be tickled*

Would you two like the rest of us to leave now? ;)

nah tickle his tummy piglet - it's really funny - his leg starts jerking and he makes the cutest little snuffly noise... ;)

Hmmmmmm......

Originally posted by Stephen Green
Hmmmmmm......

That doesn't sound like a cute snuffley noise? :)

I was wearing my gas mask!

um....ok.....right.....

gasmasks and thongs.

No marshals should not be paid - but by the sounds of it, some of us need some serious therapy ;)

Dear All especially the bike marshals.
I am writing this having read all the comments with reference to what I put back in Jan.
Firstly my comments may have been unjustifeid about my own observations and experiances but it was a forum that I was taking part in and pointing out a few things.
There are many things said on these forums and after all this episode I now believe the wrong things are being said and it is doing both car and bike worlds no good. Some of the things said including from myself where the wrong things to say and as the forums were set up for a place for marshals to talk about there experiences the pages seems to have turned to the odd heated battle on things.
I think what needs to be rembered is everyone with a computer has access to these pages and for new marshals this may be a turn off after what they read.
All I can say is I apologise to all in the bike marshals world as I was upset at the time with what I saw and have since then done a couple of bike meetings to get a better picture. At a recent meeting I was at I used BEMSEE as an example on how to treat there marshals and asked why the car clubs can not do this.(I give praise were its due)
I was told I upset a couple of senior people from BEMSEE and on that note please accept my apologies. My intention was not to upset anyone and some of the flack I recieved was deserved. The personal attacks on me were not as they came from people who do not know me or my experiences(I certainly do not know them).
Once again especially those involved in the bike world SORRY,SORRY,SORRY.
I would like the air cleared as I do enjoy marshalling the odd bike meeting and would still like to attend there events.
Again SORRY.
Richard S.

Originally posted by rzsio396

I think what needs to be rembered is everyone with a computer has access to these pages and for new marshals this may be a turn off after what they read.


Richard, this is an ongoing concern for all marshalling clubs but it has to be balanced against the need for existing marshals to air their views/grievances.

Unspoken issues fester and result in existing marshals leaving which is just as bad as not being able to attract new members. Sometimes all that's needed to clear such an issue is the participation of other members of the marshalling community - those outside those in your own "marshalling circle" who can offer an objective opinion and advice.

I don't think personal attacks are appropriate and there are some issues I would never raise on any public board - but discussion of marshalling issues is what all of us are here for. I personally rely on this board for getting feedback from more experienced marshals on issues I'm encountering - and, (in the unlikely event that I actually have more knowledge of something!) passing my own experiences on to others. After all, there's nothing new under the sun and we need everyone's input and feedback if we are to continue to gain experience and understanding.

I understand where you are coming from on this, but, as I understand it, this is not a marshalling PR forum, it's a forum for marshals. Pretending everything is sweetness and light might encourage a few new marshals - but as soon as they discover that, like everything else in this world, nothing is perfect, they may well become disillusioned and leave.

We all know that marshalling can be tough. We all know that there are issues. But I think we also make it clear through our participation here, the jokes and the wind ups and the discussions, that it's something we all feel passionately about and enjoy doing. As long as that message is the one that is clear, there should be no obstacle to open discussion of issues.

Well said Terri.

Don't know how I've missed this one so far but marshalls are as much the lifeblood of motor racing as any other people. Without them it COULD NOT HAPPEN.
Most circuits need around 20 people to marshal, if that, (am I right?) plus some more for pit lane etc.
Typical meeting entry say 20 * 8 races = 160 entries. Get all these to pay another £4/£5 and you can pay £10 expenses to all marshals, and include scrutineers, timers etc. etc.
I would be delighted to do this as these guys do a great job , often in ****ty conditions without much in the way of thanks...

Originally posted by JR Ewing

Most circuits need around 20 people to marshal, if that, (am I right?) plus some more for pit lane etc.


That's a very low estimate. At Anglesey this weekend, a short (around a mile) circuit with only six posts, we had just over 40 marshals for six posts. For most circuits the desirable minimum manning level at every post (manning in the general sense - many marshals are women!) is an observer, two flag per flag point (usually two flagpoints/post), an incident officer & four or more incident marshals.

To give you some idea of the numbers involved at a typical meeting on one of the longer circuits, at a recent club meeting at Oulton the following were involved:

Stewards: 3
Event director 1
Clerks of the course 3
Secretary of the meeting 2
Chief marshal 1
Chief observer 1 + 1 deputy
Chief incident (admin) 1
Chief incident (ops) 2
Chief MO 1
Race information 3
Rescue 11
Pedestrian safety 1
Radio control 2
Pits 9
Race control 3
Start line 3
Paddock/assembly area 7
Recovery 7
Judges 5
Scrutineers 10
Sound official 1
Competitors' sign on 4
Timekeepers 4
Commentators 2
Observers 18
Assistant observers 5
Flag 20
Incident 70

200 people if my addition is correct, to run a meeting with 191 competitors. £10/competitor would cover it!:beer:

And he's missed two of the most important people off his list - Chief and Deputy Chief Flag - for without them the competitors would either not know when to start or if they have incurred any penalties etc and just keep going round and round the circuit with no-one to stop them.:p

Christ, thats a lot of people. I think some of them do get paid a bit by the MSA, CoC, Secs etc.
I was at cadwell recently and they had 20 marshals - 2 per post for 10 posts and thats a long track..
Whatever, my point stands. Entering a race even at a low level realistically costs around £500 minimum (for single seaters) so another tenner to show our appreciation is bugger all

Originally posted by JR Ewing
Christ, thats a lot of people.

That was a club meeting on the short Fosters circuit - incident marshal numbers were acceptable, but more would have been useful.

The TOCA Officials'Instructions sheet for this year's Oulton meeting lists 290 people; to both these lists must be added St John's/Red Cross personnel.


I was at cadwell recently and they had 20 marshals - 2 per post for 10 posts and thats a long track..

Cadwell does seem to have a problem getting enough marshals - one problem is that, being in the middle of nowhere, there are very few people for whom it is the 'local' circuit. It's one of my favourites - we'll be there in a couple of weeks' time for the Jags.


Whatever, my point stands. Entering a race even at a low level realistically costs around £500 minimum (for single seaters) so another tenner to show our appreciation is bugger all

You'll get no argument from me on that one!

Hmmm biker bob from Kent - is this Chalkley again?

??

Blimey thats some e-cheology.

Holy Thread Resurrection Batman!

Not read all 11 pages so apologies if im repeating this:
Dead against payment though sponsored overalls/kit seem ok to me
Also wondered if a small voluntary,levy,perhaps as little as £1 could be put on race fees which could then be used to improve the facility's available to marshals-such as better huts,water taps,dedicated toilets etc-though i suspect this should really be provided by the circuits anyway.
I guess this could mean that the club racers would end up paying and the prima donnas not-but who knows?

As this thread started in 2002, it seams to me nothing much has changed.

maybe a small donation for travelling and food costs

I reaslise this is an old thread, and started long before I was marshaling.

I started marshaling knowing full well it was on a volutary basis, so have no expectations of payment. What would be good though, would be a helping hand with all the kit that is required.

I What would be good though, would be a helping hand with all the kit that is required.

i fully agree help with the cost of equipment would be the best payment

overalls £40
good waterproof jacket £30
gloves 2 pr £5
waterproof gloves £5
boots £30
this is just a small amount of gear a marshal should have and it does mount up cost wise

I think it would be a bad idea for marshals to be paid - I like to know that the people watching my back are there because they love the sport as much as I do, not just because of the money. I would like to see some contribution towards the running costs of being a marshal though.

Payment? Expenses or perks are the only options as a wage is not suitable for this purpose. Petrol is the problem financially these days, this is sure to cause some people to cut back the amount of days spent at the Circuit.
The answer is Food vouchers isseud at signing on, Clubs can negotiate a deal with the circuits. Competitors would be happy to cover that I am sure.

Sponsored Overalls can cause problems with TV and series advertisers.

However, being a member of Racesafe (Motorcycle racing) we get a lot of perks, Sponsored Overalls/Waterproofs, Hot meals/vouchers or packed lunches, free membership, great campsite facilities, and a great welcome at all the circuits involved. The whole package makes you feel appreciated.

Perhaps Car Clubs would like to look into this?

Am I allowed to post an a non-Marshall? Racers accept that without Marshalls we would be unable to race and I agree that that the package you receive from Racesafe helps towards the cost and also makes you feel valued. The difficulty is that there are a number of organisations involved in car events and someone would need to approch them with an acceptable suggestion. So, first find out what you all think is a suitable request and then present it. As this has been going on for years it will not be a quick result. Good luck with your effort.

I am in agreement with most people, some help for the cost of kit and travelling would be great but I would much rather marshal with people that are there because of the love of the sport as opposed to people that are there just for the money.

i have to say i do this for the love of the sport and no other reason, help would be good but would not stop me doing this, one thing though probable just the only thing i would like is free food.

I havent read tyhe full 11 pages (Sorry) but you could get into the problems of income tax, a profession, and litigation etc.

I do think that a small amount towards expenses wouldn't go a miss. However as most have said in this thread and previous related ones, I do it because I enjoy it and see it as a Hobby, not because i want money.

I like to know that the people watching my back are there because they love the sport as much as I do, not just because of the money.

My thoughts exactly, Beefy. I'm a newbie marshal - I've been at it for less that six months now - but part of what I look forward to is the banter among the marshals. The only people who volunteer are people who want to be there, and like you say, it's better having them watching your back instead of Joe Bloggs who just happened to be on the rota that day.

What about subsidised food? I know you do at Silverstone but it wouldn't be too hard would it?

Also the odd gift which we get now is great. The odd raffle too, although I never win bloody anything :D

Well I spend a truck load (small truck) of money marshalling, travelling back and forth to the UK about 20 odd times a year, but no I do not want to be paid.
Legal matters are my main concern.
The only thing I would accept is like in Belgium, 10 Euro or 7 Pound lunch money for the bigger events.
But I do it for the fun, not the money.

Getting paid would class it as a job..not a hobby.
Jobs come under the working time directive..
there goes a high % of marshals.
Hobbies involve pasion and doing it coz ya want to.
not coz the bank manager needs you to.

Standing in the middle of an old airfield, all day, in the pouring rain and gale force wind, waiting for a car to make it past you, is not a hobby, it's an addiction!

Standing in the middle of an old airfield, all day, in the pouring rain and gale force wind, waiting for a car to make it past you, is not a hobby, it's an addiction!

......and a terrible one at that. We laugh in the face of danger. Then we hide for a bit until it goes away.

Getting paid would class it as a job..not a hobby.
Jobs come under the working time directive..
there goes a high % of marshals.
Hobbies involve pasion and doing it coz ya want to.
not coz the bank manager needs you to.


So what do Timekeepers, Scrutineers and Doctors who do get "paid" class it as.

So what do Timekeepers, Scrutineers and Doctors who do get "paid" class it as.

thats something i couldn`t comment on as i do not know and would rather someone with the said knowledge answer.

Basically...i aint got a clue :laugh:

[quote=gachjoel]Jobs come under the working time directive..[gachjoel=quote]

Voluntary jobs also come under the working time directive for us drivers as well Gary, as you probably know. I have to declare to my company everytime I marshal & what hours, also community service, working in a charity shop, basically any unpaid job. They told me marshaling is classed as an upaid job as we are officals. If they decide to include that in my WTD that's up to them. I just get told "you're close to hours Col you're going to have to have a short week". :D :D

Col

The amount that Doctors get paid wouldn't constitute a wage (or at least not compared to what they could be earning!) and is enough to cover their costs of attending (fuel, insurance, drugs that they may provide etc). I suspect the same goes for everybody else who gets 'paid'.

i think that the driverwaving at the end of the race is nice they are saying THANK YOU for being there but dont need you this time,,, might need you next race ??

i think that the driverwaving at the end of the race is nice they are saying THANK YOU for being there but dont need you this time,,, might need you next race ??

you try telling that to single seater drivers :p

Well. The paramedic wage doesn't warrant a wage but it certainly is pocket money and the more you do the more you get!

[quote=gachjoel]Jobs come under the working time directive..[gachjoel=quote]

Voluntary jobs also come under the working time directive for us drivers as well Gary, as you probably know. I have to declare to my company everytime

Col

Eeeeerrrrrmmmm

well i told my Boss about me marshalling and he told me that as it is voluntary it doesn`t count.

To be honest all I would like for being paid etc etc, Is a free cuppa or at least the option of one.

i`ve never classed it as voluntary work.
but as a hobby.
therefore i know hobbies don`t come under working hours stuff.

a free cuppa always does it for me..not that i`m easily pleased lol

it is voluntary it doesn`t count.


I'm in agreement with you Gary but told them just incase & got that reply. It's prob a case of someone trying to justify their job. lol.
Pen pushers eh!! :p :p :p

I'm in agreement with you Gary but told them just incase & got that reply. It's prob a case of someone trying to justify their job. lol.
Pen pushers eh!! :p :p :p


and one person will read the rules differently to someone else.

juz spent 4 days at the WRC rally n got totally soaked...
not a penny in sight and the reason i went back the next day...

coz i love doing it.
even managed to stab myself in the leg.
was well p**sed off that i tore my probans

:laugh: :laugh: