Moss, Stirling (Sir)

Hi people.
I am a regular visitor to a trivia site which has a real time chat applet and voice communications as well for readers to ask questions , its fun but not motorsport based which can broaden your horizons :)

anyway I was there the other day and the question came up who won the 1950 world drivers championship , and no one knew ...well of course i jumped all over it with Giuseppe farina and won the points but as the room is mainly UK based I was very surprised at how many people said Stirling Moss.
Of course i corrected them by saying that Mr . Moss , great as he was never actually won a world drivers championship , and everyone was aghast at this , seems to me that the general public hold him such high asteem that they have credited him with at least 2 championships.

but that aside , I thought i would post a topic and get peoples thoughts on Stirling and his awesome career and why he was held in such high asteem and still is I might add :)

sadly I havent seen alot of footage of him driving , but what I have seen was pretty good but was impresses me most about him is his character , he seems a real gentlemen , very well spoken and very intelligent and knows what he is talking about on whatever it maybe he is talking about.
I enjoy listening to him talk about the old days of racing against the likes of Fangio and the way he just describes what was happening left me wanting more and i could listen to him all day , it really is a shame that i havent seen more of his career on film at all and that he never won a title is a shame.

but yet why did this man who never won a title held in such high regard in especially in England???

I dont know and thought maybe someone who perhaps is in England ( or possibly even not) and knows more about this great mans career could elaborate a bit more, or even if you a great story or memory about Stirling you could post it here and share with us all what it is about him that everybody adores .

Cheers
Marcus

He couldn't have come much closer to winning the WDC without actually winning it! He was runner-up 4 times in a row if I'm not mistaken!

He was Britain's greatest driver of the 50s,and the first one to become a household name.He won the main,F2 event at the first meeting I ever attended,Crystal Palace,Sep 19,1953. Around 50,000 people were known to turn up for what by todays standards would be a club event.I did not even know that Fangio was world champion until nearly 2 yrs later.

Ah, without doubt my favourite of them all. But why? I'm 34, and his career ended five years before I was even born.

Because Stirling, throughout his career, has backed up his extraordinary driving talent with an exemplary appreciation of who ultimately pays his wages - the racegoing public. From the earliest days in the 500cc Formula 3 cars, he would wave acknowledgement to the crowds, who would of course wave back. He would self-deprecatingly suggest that this was in order to raise his attendance money, by making race organisers think he was more popular than the next guy, but I think it was more heartfelt than that.

If he earned money by endorsing products in the fifties, he seemed to endorse the right ones to further ally himself with his fan base. I've got a Dinky Toys collectors club card passed on by a relative, which is in the form of an oldstyle car logbook, and countersigned by "Stirling Moss, Membership number 1". Guess how many miniature Stirling Mosses raced their Vanwalls and Mercedes round the carpets of fifties England...!

He had a sense of fair play. He backed up Mike Hawthorn at the Reims race of 1958 when Mike shot down an escape road and came back the wrong way. A protest and a disqualification would have been perfectly within Stirling's rights, but instead he sided with Mike. I think I'm right in saying the points that Mike saved that day beat Stirling to the '58 championship.

When Stirling was reported to the police for poor lane discipline in the Mersey Tunnel, Motor Sport magazine published the name and address of the citizen who "shopped" the brightest star of British motor racing. By 1960, this was the level of adoration for him.

And all these years later, he still has time for the fans. I can testify to this, as I know I've related in this place before. I once encountered him in the Silverstone paddock, when he had just endured a bad qualifying session in an ill-handling and recalcitrent MG B. Hot and bothered, he was leaning on his trademark motor scooter, and generally seemed thoroughly at odds with his morning. However, this was Stirling Moss, and I had a camera to hand. So I gingerly went up to him and asked "May I take your picture, Mr Moss?"

At once, his countenance changed. He made an expansive gesture with his arms, and with an "Of course, dear boy!" he stepped back from the scooter and posed for my humble little instant camera. We shook hands, and I went away confirmed in my enthusiasm for this legend of motor sport. Needless to say, the resulting snapshot is one of the most cherished items in my collection.

I've scarcely mentioned his racing. I've seen him race competitive modern cars in the BTCC - he was driving the Akai Audi 80 with Martin Brundle in the early 1980s. It was not his forte. Doorhandling with other touring cars does not sit well with his driving finesse. I'll admit I've never seen him in his prime. But Stirling Moss is still a match for most averagely good drivers. Seeing him at Goodwood in '98 taking an Aston DBR1 by the scruff of the neck and dicing with Brundle in a D Type and Tiff Needell in a Lister is one of my all time favourite memories. At 70, he was every bit as aggressive as men half his age.

And that is why Sir Stirling Moss is, for me, every bit the legend he deserves to be.

awesome TimD simply awsome , just what I wanted to hear from his adoring public, he seems be more than justa driver and you summed it up excellently

There were many - and not only Brits - who regarded him as simply the best driver in the world, certainly after Fangio retired. It was a bit like if Senna or Schumacher had never won the world championship - they would still be ranked among the greats of their era.
I can't add much to what Tim has said, except that throughout most of the '50s and into the '60s he was the best F1 driver, the best F2 driver, the best F3 driver (until 1954), the best long-distance sportscar driver, the best short-circuit sportscar driver, the best on airfield circuits, the best on open-road circuits - all at the same time.

TimD - magnificent summing-up!! With you all the way.

;)

Originally posted by marcus
....but yet why did this man who never won a title held in such high regard in especially in England???

In part because he fought that charge about changing lanes in the Mersey tunnel... but it was an era when the poms were looking for heroes, too.

He was, as he and Purdy point out in All But My Life, "the knight going out to defeat the infidel, the one who would give all, perhaps come back with the trophy, perhaps with broken limbs and bleeding nose."

Mossy had his flaws and failings, but he was human and admitted it. He drove anything he drove to its ultimate, and don't forget he was a works rally driver too... won, I think, three Coupes des Alpes in a row.

At Le Mans 2001, Moss was in a Jag C type for the historical support race in the morning. The Radio Le Mans crew told the concerned British fans that the reason for his limp was not old age, he had fallen out of a taxi on a night out earlier in the week!

After running across for the traditional Le Mans start he proceeded to do his best to run down the idiot tv crew in the middle of the track before going on to drift his C type around for the next hour, whilst acknowledging the crowd. And of course he won his class.

An absolute legend and national treasure!

(And I haven't even mentioned his victory in the Mille Miglia in 1955, at an average speed of just under 100 mph over 10 hours on public roads...)

I also think that his devotion to British racing teams endeared him to his countrymen.

Despite a few years racing for Maseratti and Mercedes, he was normally in an underpowered, overmatched British car racing the hordes of Italian and German challengers.

Originally posted by AllonFS
....(And I haven't even mentioned his victory in the Mille Miglia in 1955, at an average speed of just under 100 mph over 10 hours on public roads...)

Don't think that needs mentioning... unless there's a comparison with Nuvolari involved!

Originally posted by AllonFS
At Le Mans 2001, Moss was in a Jag C type for the historical support race in the morning.

Ah, that was some race. And the day beforehand, while the circuit was still open to public traffic, Stirling could be found driving up and down the Mulsanne Straight in his race C Type, taking part in the annual impromptu car cruise.

May I say that I have Moss autograph for sale at

http://www.geocities.com/f1autographs2001/

Originally posted by msps
May I say that I have Moss autograph for sale at

I was thinking about selling mine too... it's in a book with a bunch of other Australian Grand Prix winners...

What's a fair price, winners of the 100 Miles Road Race, 1949, 1951, 1955, 1956, 1960, 1963, 1964, 1966, 1970, 1971 AGPs, and a few others like the man who made the 1965 event a more memorable race?

And the co-author of the book will autograph it too if you ask nicely... photographs of each of the three deceased autographing drivers included in the deal, each holding the book.

I too have a Stirling Moss autograph- on the program for the 1999 Stoneleigh Kit-Car show- he was there to open the show. We found ouselves holding up the queue of autograph hunters because we said we were going to the Goodwood Revival ...

I'm sorry, but Moss is overrated. Fangio made him look very ordinary in their season together at Mercedes.

A splendid sports car driver, certainly, a cut above most in any sort of car... But he can't stand shoulder to shoulder with these giants, sorry.

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
I'm sorry, but Moss is overrated. Fangio made him look very ordinary in their season together at Mercedes.

A splendid sports car driver, certainly, a cut above most in any sort of car... But he can't stand shoulder to shoulder with these giants, sorry.

Er.............. no I'll let those who are better qualified than me improve your education Lee. :)

I just don't see where Moss is a legend. A very good driver, certainly... Better than many who do have championships to their names... But in '55, not once did he lead Fangio until the Argentinian slowed to let him pass at Aintree.

I certainly can't argue with his place in the history of British motorsport, but I think perhaps nationalism makes him stand a bit higher than he should.

But, it's just my opinion.

Curse that time limit on editing posts... But I figured I'd try and explain my reasoning.

All the other drivers I view as legends, have, well, legends written about them. Nuvolari's '35 Nurburgring and '48 Mille Miglia, Rosemeyer's '36 Nurburgring in the fog, Fangio's '57 Nurburgring, Clark leading the 3.0L cars at Zandvoort in '66 in a 2.0L Lotus-Climax, Villeneuve's 3-wheeled drive at Zandvoort in '79, Senna's near-win at Monaco in '84 in the pouring rain and his "perfect lap" at the same track in '89... Moss, as far as I know, never did anything with a race car that just wasn't thought previously possible.

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
Moss, as far as I know, never did anything with a race car that just wasn't thought previously possible.

:banghead:

Mille Miglia 1955

Argentine GP 1958

Monaco GP 1961

I think the other point is, and maybe we do see this more clearly in the UK was that his brilliance was mostly at the wheel of privately owned teams, customers of the works teams.
Again, in that era, such things took place. Rapant commercial ambition wasn't quite as sharp as it is today. It's felt that had Moss gone straight to Ferrari for example, he'd of been way ahead.
As has been said, the experts in this field would offer a better arguement (please step up...).
I was at Goodwood the day he nearly died and the fact was, he didn't need to be going as fast as he was, something like 2 seconds a lap quicker than the race leader (Hill?), but right down the field, laps back owing to early race car problems. He was absolutely flying, extreme 'Villeneuve' - tigering as DSJ called it.
When he was driving for Mercedes, it was to strict team orders wasn't it? And in those days, you knew how to behave. No one really knows what would have happened if he was let off the leash.

Well, y'know, I'm always open to new information... My opinion just, well, is what it is, at present.

Take it for what it's worth, from a guy who has never even been on a race track (flat broke). http://www.computerpannen.com/cwm/contrib/ruinkai/wvsore.gif

Originally posted by Vitesse
:banghead:

Mille Miglia 1955

Argentine GP 1958

Monaco GP 1961

So to contribute to Lee's education ;) (but I'm sure he just want us to develop on the subject :p ) :

There are lots of similitude in Moss and Nuvolari career :

- Both have been used to run some second hand and private cars and got large number of wins with such cars.

- Both have been particularly successful on tracks reputed to be driver track as Monaco and the Nürbürgring but also both have been Mille Miglia's winner.

And some other more funny :

- As already mentionned, Tazio once lost his steering wheel in a race in Italy, Moss did it also somewhere in the UK (I can be back with the races by to morrow).

And to compare Moss to Fangio and despite the fact that Fangio didn't like sports car very much, don't forget the three Stirling's wins in a row on the most selective track in the history : the Nürbürgring, one being achieved with a famous co-driver, the master himself : Fangio who drove in the 1000kms ... only [B]four laps[/] ...
I can be back with the year by tomorrow also ...

And if Moss is the first one to admit Fangio's superiority, it does not make him a backrunner for that ...

Y.

Excellent Yves, thank you for the additional info. Dare I just correct the point that Stirling Moss did not admit so much as to Fangio's superiority - rather that in his opinion, Fangio was the finest driver ever ... and that of course leaves a lot of qualifying unsaid! Look forward to tomorrow's post ...

I'll second that. Beautifully put.

Now, anxiously waiting for tomorrow!

Me too, I always try to keep an open mind. :)

Originally posted by Ray Bell
and don't forget he was a works rally driver too... won, I think, three Coupes des Alpes in a row.

Having finished three time in a row the Alpes Rally without penalty, he has been awarded with a Coupe d'or, the only second one in the rally history after Maurice Gastonides.
Paddy Hopkirk, a professionnal rallymen only got a Coupe d'Argent for three non consecutive Coupe des Alpes.

http://www.smithmaps.fsnet.co.uk/alpinerallytext.htm

Y.

I too was at the '98 Revival and remember that drive in the DBR1. It was something special. But what about his drive the following year in a 250F racing from 17th to 4th in the wet. Shows what a great driver he is even in his 70's.
I also remember in '98 I was marshalling at the old post 5, just before the left-hander at St Mary's,(now post 6). That year there was no proper tyre wall along the bank but for one section of blue/white painted tyres. I was standing there on the Sunday morning with another marshal when Stirling did some parade laps in a Ferrari GTO. He waved as he went round. On the last lap we noticed he had stopped waving. Past the flag point, didn't wave; past the observers post, didn't wave but when he came to us he waved. (There were no spectators there at that time). We were bemused by this.

After the meeting I went to the presentation where I met Stirling. Despite him looking tired he was happy to chat. I asked him about this, saying I noticed he had stopped waving until he got to us. His reply was that he had only found out that weekend where he had had his big accident in '62. It was right where we were standing, the area marked by the blue/white tyres. He just thought he had to give us a wave in case he visited there again. I just said well I glad we didn't meet up. He was very grateful to the marshals for helping the meeting go well and shook MY hand. What a gentleman. I didn't get his autograph that day; too excited meeting him. I did get it two years later at Goodwood. It's in the race card along with Sir Jack Brabham, Derek Bell and Carroll Shelby. And I'm not selling.
I don't remember his hey day. I wasn't even born when his career ended at Goodwood but what I've seen of him race in his later years, he deserves the title Legend.

Steve B

Yves,
I don't wish too sound pedantic, but the website you linked to does not tell an accurate story.
In the Alpine Rally, or to give it it's proper name the Coupe des Alpes, several competitors would finish with a penalty free run. Positions were determined by a "figure of merit" decided by the results of special stages but I don't know the details. A penalty free run earned a Coupe d'Alpes. To win a Coupe d'Or (gold cup) a competitor had to earn three successive coupes or penalty free runs. Three non consecutive coupes earned a Coupe d'Argent (silver cup).
Ian and Pat Appleyard were the first to win a Coupe d'Or with successive wins in 1950, 51 and 52 driving a Jaguar XK120. Stirling Moss was the only other winner of a Coupe d'Or with clean sheets in 1952, 53 and 54 driving Sunbeam Talbots. Maurice Gatsonides won a Coupe des Alpes in 1952 and was second overall but never a Coupe d'Or though he may have won a Coupe d'Argent.

To return to the main theme.
One reason Moss is still so highly rated was his versatility. He seemed to be capable of winning in everything:
His well-documented 16 Grand Prix wins from 66 starts.
3 consecutive Nurburgring 1000 kms.
7 TT wins.
The Mille Miglia.
Winning the Sebring 12 hours in a privately owned 1500cc OSCA beating the works Lancias, Aston Martins, Austin healeys, and cunnunghams and the semi-works Ferraris. Although he never won Le Mans he was 2nd once and always a contendor.
The Coupe d'Or mentioned above.
2nd in the Monte Carlo rally
5 World Class G speed records at over 200 mph in an MG streamliner,
etc, etc

As to popularity, TimD has said it all. He was a public personality before the term was invented. He was the first British winner of the British GP. He was the first British winner of a championship Grand Prix in a British car.

Yes I am a Moss fan and have been one for nearly 50 years. Even if he never won in a D-Type Jaguar!

Originally posted by D-Type
Yves,
I don't wish too sound pedantic, but the website you linked to does not tell an accurate story.


No problem, I gave the first link to an english web i found, sorry for the unaccurate stuff :o

I tried to retrieve a story I read about Stirling, when he was lost in a desert for many hours.
I think it was with a 300 SL but cannot get it.
Does that ring something to anybody ?

Y.

Yes, that's the 1974 World Cup Rally - the car involved was a W115-series Mercedes 280E, crewed by Stirling, Michael Taylor and Allan Sell.

The car had electrical failure in the Sahara between Tamanrasset and the North African coast, and the crew were forced to sit tight with the wreck for a day and a half before the rally's straggler-recovery crew turned up with a Land Rover.

Originally posted by D-Type
Lee Janotta, read the Stirling Moss thread if you want to get some idea of why we reckon him one of the greats. When you look at the statistics remember that his 16 Grand Prix wins took place when there were 8 or 9 races in a championship season so would be equivalent to twice that number today.

... and also bear in mind that he drove top-line works cars in F1 for only four seasons - 1955 for Mercedes, 1956 for Maserati, 1957-8 for Vanwall. He then joined Rob Walker's team, for whom he had already won the 1958 Argentine GP. This was the first win for both Walker and Cooper and was a tactical masterpiece, in which Moss successfully hoodwinked the opposition into thinking that he had to stop for tyres and/or fuel. In fact, he ran non-stop, the little Cooper-Climax being much less thirsty than the Ferraris and Maseratis. He finished the race with the fabric showing through the rubber ....:eek:

In a recent Motorsport there was an article about that first win for the Cooper. Stirling actually had someone placed at a slow corner to signal to him when the white fabric started to show through the tyres. He actually planned for that happening. :eek: With the lead he had built up he was able to back off and nurse the car home.

D-Type (cool name by the way) seems to have put it all very well. I would just like to add:
Yes, he did win 3 consecutive 1000kms at the Nurburgring, but he won it 4 times in total:
1956 - Maserati 300S
1958-59 - Aston Martin DBR1/300
1960 - Maserati 'Birdcage'
Personally, I think it's the way he won his races that made him so great. He either disappeared into the distance (eg. Pescara '57 - beat Fangio by about 4 min. I think), won in an uncompetitive car (back to the OSCA, Lotus 18 wins etc.), or came back from nowhere after an early problem ('57 Aintree, '59 Nurburgring, '59 TT......)

Whenever you read comments by the drivers who had to race against him, they all know that he was the best, the benchmark, irrespective of the fact that he never won the F1 title.

well hes a jolly nice chap.

I tried to retrieve a story I read about Stirling, when he was lost in a desert for many hours.
I think it was with a 300 SL but cannot get it.

Purely by coincidence this month's (March) Motor Sport has a letter describing the incident.

Originally posted by D-Type

To return to the main theme.
One reason Moss is still so highly rated was his versatility. He seemed to be capable of winning in everything:
His well-documented 16 Grand Prix wins from 66 starts.
3 consecutive Nurburgring 1000 kms.
7 TT wins.
The Mille Miglia.
Winning the Sebring 12 hours in a privately owned 1500cc OSCA beating the works Lancias, Aston Martins, Austin healeys, and cunnunghams and the semi-works Ferraris. Although he never won Le Mans he was 2nd once and always a contendor.
The Coupe d'Or mentioned above.
2nd in the Monte Carlo rally
5 World Class G speed records at over 200 mph in an MG streamliner,
etc, etc



That sheer versatility- apparently being willing to race almost anything (and usually win in it) is one of the things that always amazes me, particularly compared with the present day when F1 drivers in particular rarely venture away from F1. I think I read somewhere that Moss had raced something like 80-90 different types of car during his career- and it's still increasing....

Is there anyone whio isn't a Stirling Moss fan? Anyone who has a single bad word to say about him? I rather doubt it. How many drivers can you think of over the years who have endeared themselves in such a way to not only motor racing fans, but so many others. Wonderful thread. Great man.

Having the opportunity to see Moss up close in the Historics at the Australian Grand Prix every year i've got to say that the man's remarkable with the way he alway's has time for his many fan's & the way he can still throw a car around at his ripe old age all the time winning a new generation of fans.

He never really got to grips with modern technology. The story about his time in the BTCC with Audi demonstrates this. His idea of setting up was to adjust the tyre pressures. So the team would pretend to adjust the pressures by making hissing noises just to convince him that the was changing the car. Then he'd go out and race to the best of his ability.

It really demonstrated that a man of his calibre would make a car work no matter how "bad" it was. Hence the wins in uncompetitive machinery.

The other thing he never got along with was the panel bashing which became prevalent in tin top racing.

All-in-all though I believe he tried to come back from his accident too early and so the chance to put more international wins on the books was lost to us.

He is a good bloke though. I've had the priveledge of meeting him (and Tony Brooks) on a few occasions.

At a function the other day and Stirling Moss asked Ross Brawn what actually the driver did in a corner nowdays. Just opened the throttle and pointed the car where he wanted it to go? Could he slide it asked Moss?
When Ross took a moment and said 'well, yes, and no he couldn't provoke it into a slide actually, the electrics sorted it out', Stirling fell silent 'Oh ...'

Originally posted by Peter Mallett

All-in-all though I believe he tried to come back from his accident too early and so the chance to put more international wins on the books was lost to us.


Agreed 100%. I think even Stirling admits that.

In 1962 when he had his accident Rob Walker had negotiated to run a Ferrari 156 for Stirling - in the event, the deal fell through because of the shunt. The car would have been run out of Walker's premises, not Maranello, so Stirling would have avoided the internal problems which plagued Ferrari in 1962 and there's no reason to think that Alf Francis couldn't have got more out of it than Ferrari did in the second half of the season.

Overall, Ferrari had a lousy year as the team disintegrated due to the factionalism brought about by the ATS split, but at the start of the season it looked very much like 1961 all over again: after three races Phil Hill was second in the championship with 14 points. He didn't score again ....

So, what price a fit Moss in a well-fettled and sorted Ferrari 156/62? The following year Surtees arrived at Maranello and put them on the winning trail again with the 158. Then came the 1512 ....

It's one of my abiding fantasies ... Moss in a Walker Ferrari, Clark in the Lotus, Hill in the BRM and Surtees in the works Ferrari fighting it out for the championship in 1963, 1964, 1965 ....

Moss was still at his peak when Hill and Clark were coming to the fore: it's a mouthwatering prospect! My personal opinion is that Stirling would have raced in F1 until maybe 1968, so we'd have seen him up against Wee Jackie as well. But he'd have run sports cars longer than that - he always loved the long races and I can see him relishing the prospect of the 917/512 battles.

Another couple of Moss entries:
Argentine GP 59 or 60 I think: Tyres down to fabric as Moss takes first win for rear-engined GP cars (and don't mention Auto-Unions, you all know what I mean)
German GP 61: Another win for Moss in the old Cooper against the sharknose Ferraris. Superb driving and a bit of luck from the weather but still magnifcent.

It was Argentina in 1958; he caught all the opposition on the hop because they expected him to come in for tyres, but, as you say, he stayed out with tyres practically worn through. By the time they had realised, it was too late.

Agree with Germany '61; another great Moss victory.

There are several Moss candidates, 1958 Argentina being one of the ones I believe you are referring to AllonFS. Rob Walker's team tricked the opposition by appearing to plan for a tyre change, but the Cooper wheels were unsuitable (i.e. the stop would have been too long) and Moss stayed out, whilst everyone else pitted. Using oil patches to try and preserve the tyres, he just held on for the first of his four World Championship GP wins that season. Moss was probably the only driver around at the time who could have done that, and he pulled it off again at Monza in 1959 (I suspect that got Enzo's attention!). It's also worth remembering that it wasn't even a full 2.5-litre Cooper he used in Argentina, either!

Drat, Dad beat me to it!

Thanks guys, 58 it was of course. Strangely it never seems to get a great deal of attention, but both for the actual drive and of course the huge significance of the car it really stands out for me. I wonder if it is because it happened in Argentina and therefore not many European commentators witnessed it?

You're right; it does not get the level of acknowledgement or attention it merits.

A few years ago, I was testing at Cadwell Park. in front of me in the assembly area driving a sports car (sorry don't remember what) was Sir Stirling Moss. We all proceeded out and did our thing, a few laps later as I came out of Barn corner, I started to catch the sports car. As we drew towards the start finish line, a little black gloved hand appeared out of the cockpit pointing for me to pass on the inside. I passed raising my hand in acknowledgement. I wanted to stop and tell the world. This was actually a better feeling than winning my first race. Lots of drivers win races, very few have the honour of sharing the same track with such a legend.

I know this isn't "Information" as requested by John, but I feel I should share this quote I read the other day:

The 1955 Mille Miglia was won by Denis Jenkinson in a chauffeur-driven Mercedes-Benz 300SL

Some chauffeur!


In fairness to the writer, I should point out that the he does know what he's talking about and wrote this for effect


John, feel free to delete this if you see fit

That is genius.

John, feel free to delete this if you see fit

No way; it's all part of the legend! :)