early german photos

I've posted a few of my Grandfathers photos - he took them in Germany between 1934 and 1936. There's some great ones of the Avus track. They're at...

http://www.pbase.com/smarjoram/root

Incidentally, is there anything left of the Avus banked curve?

Well, the banking was there when I was last in Berlin, but that was a few years' ago now. I had just sent a post to the query about Oval Racing to say that Avus should be mentioned, so it's a nice coincidence that you should produce your grandfather's photos which look very interesting, and they are certainly not all of Avus.
I like your other photos too! Though I prefer the Revival meeting to the Festival of Speed.
Some of mine can be found on Aysedasi's website, but I am not allowed to say who the drivers are or where they were at the time, but I think that anyone who looks at these pages will have no difficulty, although Aysedasi's Le Mans followers will scratch their heads a little.

Stefan: I think you need to revise those dates!! The top three AVUS pictures are definitely the 1937 Avusrennen. The Maserati is Soffietti, the Auto Union is Rosemeyer and the two Mercedes are Lang (streamliner) and Seaman.

Not sure about the hillclimb pictures, but in the final batch the Auto Union appears to be Stuck in the 1934 Avusrennen. As the others appear to be taken from the same place, they are probably mostly of the Avusrennen Voiturette race, except for that odd streamliner, which, if it is 1934, just might be Siena's Maserati 8CM, for which the race number is AFAIK unknown.

The scoreboard picture is for the high jump at the 1936 Olympics!

Great stuff!! Got any more???

Welcome Stoffer - its about time you joined in the fun......... ;)

What a wonderful set of pictures!

"Incidentally, is there anything left of the Avus banked curve?"

When I was in Berlin some 10 years ago I visitied the place. As far as I could see there was nothing left of the Nordschleife.

By the way, the first picture in the second row, has of course nothing to do with motorsports. Its the victory ceremony for the High Jump at the Berlin Olympics, 2 August 1936.

stefan there are some excellent photos :beer: even the lemans 2001 photos are great :rotate:

This is Rosemeyer I believe at AVUS:

Originally posted by strad
This is Rosemeyer I believe at AVUS:
I think it rather could be Rosemeyer at the Nürburgring Karussell, possibly at the 1937 Eifelrennen?

I've also just come across some German photos from that era... they were publicity shots used by Auto Union, so I don't know if any of them are in magazines or books at all.

Included is one of the record car with the streamlining on the Autobahn, while there are also photos of motorcycles and their riders.

Originally posted by Leif Snellman

I think it rather could be Rosemeyer at the Nürburgring Karussell, possibly at the 1937 Eifelrennen?

I don't think it can be anyone - or anywhere - else! Quite unusual to see a shot from that side of the Karussel though - most are from the inside of the bend.

Ray - I'd be interested to see those! Could you post them here or e-mail me?

New e-mail btw: RichardVitesse@aol.com

Thanks for all the info on the pictures - it's great to find out a bit more about them. I did know that the scoreboard wasn't a motor racing one - I just put it in as an interesting date marker. Unfortunately I haven't got any more.

I reckon the attached picture is the carousel too.

Glad you liked my other photos - I did go to the revival meeting once but found it a bit frustrating not being able to get in the paddock area - I must try and get a press pass somehow. Also I really like the sheer diversity of the cars at the Festival of Speed.

I'd like to see some of the photos Ray has..

Meanwhile I've just added some photos from the Revival meeting...

http://www.pbase.com/smarjoram/root

Great photos of the Revival Meeting, I guess you were hanging over the fencing to take some of them. You must get a pass next time!

Any idea how?

Photo # 9 looks like Caracciola's white Alfa 8C2300 Monza, if so, it must be 1932. First impression is in fact hil climb, but I also would not exclude the Nürburgring, which in that time was rather narrow in some places, and allowing also the spectators to come very close to the track. High race numbers are irritating, they gad similar high numbers in the 50's, but have no info about prewar era. Anybody around having entry list of Eifelrennen 1932, or some photos to compare race numbers?
Still work on the others.

Michael, I don't think it's Der Ring - look at the trees right on the roadside. Even in the 30s, they wouldn't have planted trees that close to a circuit! It certainly looks like a Monza, but the grille detailing looks unusual - and what is that thing with a square slab radiator?

Incredible pics Stefan, thanks ! I can't help with ID but with Richard, Michael, Ray and Leif you've got an all-star team working on it !

The square slab radiator is an Austin 7 with a pretty trick front suspension. I would also say the Caracciola Alfa is on a hillclimb, but a couple of pics there seem reminiscent of the ones I recently posted her on behalf of Sat... and they were Brno. Did you grandfather go to Brno, stefan?

As for my pics, I'd be happy to post them here, but I'm not asking permission to do so. If anyone wants them to be posted, just ask one of the administrators if I can do that. They have concerns with some members being unable to tolerate the loading time of decent sized pictures... it's a situation that doesn't please me, especially as others have repeatedly asked me to post pics on their behalf, and other issues have made worse.

I won't be asking. But if I get an e.mail from TimD saying it's all right, you will have the pics.

Leif;
I knew the name seemed familiar..the when checking for some info from this great site I visit, the light went on...HAHAHAHAHA Great stuff guy, and much appriceated.
Thanks you have often been the ONLY source for some things. ;) :)

Originally posted by Leif Snellman
What a wonderful set of pictures!

Got to agree with you there, I think many would be delighted to see them...

Its the victory ceremony for the High Jump at the Berlin Olympics, 2 August 1936.

Isn't that the day they announced that the 1940 Olympics were to be held in Tokyo?

Thanks strad!:beer:

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Isn't that the day they announced that the 1940 Olympics were to be held in Tokyo? No, actually that was on 31 July. Tokio won over Helsinki, 36-27!

I also think more it's hill climb, also because the driver of the Monza (Rudi?) wears no dust cap, meaning he's on a short ride only. The Ring has been built only a few years before, so they would have cutted all trees during construction work, and there was no time for them to grow. However, if this is really Caracciola it could not be a small local event, but probably one of those counted to the championship. Anybody around having more knowledge about German hill climbing of that era? Freiburg-Schauinsland? Could be.

About posting pictures, believe this is one of the most important detail of a forum covering content like this one. So it would be strange if this needs permission. However, I can understand that posting of several large image files needs considerable transfer time with the result that the thread in question opens very slowly only. Possible solution is quite simple, just change the VB code from "img" to "url", so anybody interested can click such link to load the image, with the non-interested having no disadvantage in loading time of the thread in general.

Originally posted by Michael M
Photo # 9 looks like Caracciola's white Alfa 8C2300 Monza, if so, it must be 1932.
I should rather say: Paul Pietsch, 1934! Caracciola's 1932 Alfa had a dark radiator, no line on the side.

Wow, some great pictures there!! I love seeing photos of the old Nurburgring and Avus I find intriguing!!

I agree with Robert, the photos # 15-25 must be taken at AVUS 1934. I was rather surprised, but nothing in my archive about AU and AVUS 1934 to compare the style of the somewhat unusual font of the race numbers. However, it’s an A type, it’s wet, and therefore # 42 and # 44 must be AVUS 1934. Historical pictures, the first competition event ever for the Auto Unions!

Now it’s getting more difficult. The car with # 22 has been photographed at the same place, but obviously the road is (more) dry. Without doubt it’s a Maserati, and my first idea was a tipo 8CM. But - only 4 exhaust pipes! So it should be a 4CM, but they looked different. So dropping the exhaust and back to 8CM. There was Nuvolari with his privately entered 8CM (remember, quarrel with Enzo that year), but it’s neither Tazio nor his Maserati. Second 8CM was Lord Howe, but his r/n is known (# 48), and then there was Eugenio Siena with another 8CM. But Siena had no (blond?) moustache, and Taruffi was the first Italian as late as 1949 wearing one of these “newfashioned nonsense hard hats”. And then the # 22, not fitting into the numbering scheme of the FL race, plus the dry - or nearly dry - track. So back again to the voiturette race and Maserati 4CM. Only Maserati driver was Luigi Castelbarco, his 4CM1500 # 1527 comes close, very close, but that cars left the factory only on 8 November 1935...! The car is dark, probably red or green, and the helmet as early as 1934 points to Great Britain. No, it’s not Howe, his 8CM looked different, and as said - 4 exhausts only. Anybody able to offer a solution? May be another year than 1934? Or not AVUS but Eifelrennen??

Then we have the Bugatti with # 2. Obviously white, so most probably German entry. Could be Ernst-Günther Burggaller, Leif lists him with # 2, but are these really race numbers or only internal running numbers? If from Sheldon, you should be careful. And if really race numbers, how could # 22 fit into the scheme? And what about the second Bugatti? Race number 26, also white, for sure Photo taken from the same spot? Hans Simons?

The semi-streamliner with r/n 32 or 52, would fit into the FL race numbering scheme, and hence must be a Maserati 8CM. No info on my side about such a converted Maserati, anybody able to help?

What about the Alfa? Looks for me not like a P3 (btw, which Alfas had been streamliners besides that of Moll?), more like a Monza with exhaust on the left and driver on the right. Paul Pietsch? As far I remember the car was privately owned, hence should be white. Another mystery.

Picture no. 25 looks like an Amilcar, color seems to be white, so could be Willi Briem. Race number seems to have 2 digits.

Also strange is the other semi-streamliner with r/n 8. Low number points to voiturette race, so could this be Theo Fork’s MG K3 Magnette?

So, that’s it for the time being from my side. I have to say, very interesting job, even better than 8W. Whole Saturday morning bust, and my wife's on non-speaking terms now.
My general feeling is that this set of pictures has been taken during AVUS 1934, but the Maseratis still are a mystery. May be I have given some ideas for you to continue the research.

PS: Leif, just read your posting about the Monza and Pietsch. You could be right, but what about the Monza picture from AVUS (see above)?

Let us continue with the topic (Your photo size comments can now be viewed under Questions, Suggestions and Feedback!!!

Okay, it's finally time for me to quit this forum. The serious ones of you know where to find me.

Just for the heck of it..a picture of Rosemeyer @ Donnington
I know many of you probably have these photos, but I post them for those who don't..

Wow, I didn't realise they'd spark quite this much interest. Really fascinating stuff - although I'm sorry if I'm responsible for any marital problems.
If anybody's still trying to fathom out more - I should have said that my grandfather lived near Dresden so I imagine most of the races would have been in that general, eastern germany area.
Also, the rallying mercedes and so on - had a note saying NSKK trials - which was a sort of amalgamation of all the motoring organisations aimed at training drivers for the army. I found a bit about it at...

http://www.skalman.nu/third-reich/nskk-history.htm

Thanks - Stefan

Stefan, sorry about delaying my response to your query about the Revival meeting. Been having PC problems at home, which my youngest sorted out over the weekend! I may be able to help, but I won't know till nearer the date of the meeting. I'm not sure of the rules of the forum, but I have no problem in you e-mailing me at stoffergr@aol.com to remind me! No guarantee mind you!

Hi,
I send you a mysterious photo from Russia. 1952. On it German Silberpfeile 1930s

Nik
It looks like a baby Auto-Union which raced in 1939 and 1940. Could it have been captured by the Soviet Army and displayed in 1952? The spectators in the photo seem to be dressed in a, how shall I put it?, rather Soviet style.

Hi!
The official version such: it not early MB or Auto Union, and SOKOL-650. In USSR spoke, that it have made specially of the details, which have stayed before war. It to doon joint-stock company AVTOVELO (1945-1949) in city Eisenach. It is former factories BMW.
Actually I think, that it MB 1,5 L. Around of the automobile the sportsmen - pilots of a team of a military district Moscow. The chief by this team Vasily STALIN the son Iozef STALIN. Now this automobile is a museum transport of Dresden.
http://www.dkw-rus.narod.ru

As Nik says, it is a Sokol 650, the origins of which are shrouded in mystery, but it seems to have been built in East Germany in about 1946-47 by the DAMW concern, probably by a number of ex-Auto Union engineers. It was later shipped to Moscow on the orders of Vasiliy Stalin and raced AFAIK just once. The link to Autovello was some sort of financial tie between the DDR and USSR.

Stoffer, I presume you are one of those (and there are very many!) who believe that the car displayed in the Donington Collection really is an E-type Auto Union. In fact, it is a almost certainly a very close relative of the Sokol depicted above. There is no evidence that the E-type was ever completed, let alone "raced", although its influence can be seen in the DAMW and Sokol.

I bow to your superior knowledge, Vitesse. In fact my comment to Nik was based on a guess that the Soviet Army might have found a mythical Auto-Union! I am ashamed to say that I haven't been to the Donington Museum, though I can claim to have seen Nuvolari win the 1938 Grand Prix (though I was 2 at the time!) and I have been to some modern meetings. My parents went to a dinner at Donington Hall after the Grand Prix, and my mother sat next to Rudolf Carraciola (such a lovely man!) but how times have changed: a local club, The Derby and District Motor Club,organised a Grand Prix and the drivers attended a celebration dinner after the race together with the marshals and wives.....

Oh to have seen Nuvolari.. sigh...let alone to have spoken with Caracciola..large sigh.........;)

Strad::beer: :)

http://www.tazionuvolari.it/tartahpx.gif

They once asked on another site who you'd invite to a dinner..these two were right up on my list, along with Rosemeyer. ;)

Good choice Strad, I would have chosen the same three. Although I haven't been to the Donington Museum, I have been to the Tazio Nuvolari Museum in Mantua. It is small and delightful, no cars, but lots of interesting personal items.

Just in case you haven't seen it before, Stoffer (and others!), here is the official Nuvolari website:

www.tazionuvolari.it

Enjoy!

Yes,Vitesse, I have visited the web-site and I thought you might have "lifted" the golden tortoise from it!

Thanks Vitesse...a site I haven't been to.;)
Wonderful!

Originally posted by Stoffer Green
Yes,Vitesse, I have visited the web-site and I thought you might have "lifted" the golden tortoise from it!

Well. if anyone's got a real Nuvolari tortoise they don't want ...:)

Meanwhile, my favourite picture from the site. Total tosh, of course!

http://www.tazionuvolari.it/cervo38.jpg

No tortoise, but I do have Mercedes-Benz and Auto-Union tie pins (two of each) on a card, which were given to my father at the 1938 Donington GP. No, I am not parting with them.

Anybody notice how much Niks photo looks like the Cooper-Jap Mark III?

Interesting that you mentioned that strad, as the thought crossed my mind when I saw it as well, especially the back part with the vertical part that made me think of the white painted part of some Coopers I have seen in photos. I didn't mention this as my knowledge pales in comparison to all of you folks. Another thing I thought of was while the Auto Union of the 30's was a good 20 years ahead of the rear-engine revolution, it's size was so much different than the Coopers et al that put the final nail in the front engined coffin. This car however is much more similiar to the late 50's ones in size, but still it was 10 years or so before the mid engine thing really took flight.

I find it curious to what factors were the problem behind it taking 10, 20 years before the mid engine concept became obviously superior to front, when cars like these existed. Was it simply lack of proper development? In the Auto-Unions case, was it weight, power and tire limitations? I guess that I have to find some proper "Cooper story" writings.

djb

Strad and djb, I suggest that it looks much more like the Ferry Porsche designed Cisitalia which was built in about 1949. This was a brilliant radical design with 4 wheeldrive and a flat 12 supercharged engine with 450odd Bhp. I believe it was so expensive that it brought Cisitalia down.
Personally I can't see that the Sokol has much in commmon with the Cooper 1100, apart from the position of the engine.
As for the Auto-Unions they were difficult to drive, and only great drivers could get the best from them. Weight itself was not the problem because they were designed for a formula originally based on weight and not on engine size.

That would be this one Stoffer - very similar!
http://leo.worldonline.es/jaumepor/images/porsches/cisitali.jpg

http://www.porsche.com/english/company/history/milestones/bilder/49_foto.jpg

http://perso.club-internet.fr/flegende/images/cisitalia.jpg

That's a beauty!! :D

Vitesse
Brilliant, you have some very good sources. I shall have to learn how to post photograghs, though it would be impossible in office hours!
The Sokol is strikingly similar, isn't it?

Not the same..just similar.....

Strad, many months ago, I asked about the 500cc cars and had some interesting responses, as well as a photo of a full bodied streamlined one.

Regarding the porsche-cisitalia. I know that pre-war there had been some front wheel drive cars, but was this car very unique in having 4 wheel drive for its time? Other than the Willys jeeps, I am not familiar with 4wd stuff, and especially not anything designed for the track.
Any ideas?

In 1933 Harry Miller built two 4-wd cars which were run at Indy by Gus Schrader and Ed McDonough. Neither finished, but in early 1934 one was brought across the Atlantic for Peter de Paolo to drive. At Tripoli it was a full nineteen seconds off the pace, but still finished sixth. It next appeared at AVUS - in the race which started this thread!! - and was running quite competitively when two con-rods let go and almost sawed the engine in two, right in front of the main stand. There is an oft-repeated story that bits of the engine flew into the stand, narrowly missing Hitler: one important detail is wrong though - Hitler wasn't actually there!

I'm not sure what happened to that car, but the other one continued to run at Indy until 1937 as the 4WD Special. Mauri Rose placed it fourth in 1936.

Jeep? Jeep/

Did somebody mention Jeep?

Ray Mitchell, almost the winner of the 1947 Australian Grand Prix... strangely enough he was beaten by tyre wear:

http://members.atlasf1.com/raybell/pics/Mitchell.jpg

Oh, it had a Ford V8 engine and drove only through the rear wheels.

But in Queensland there was a car built by Snow Sefton and raced at Strathpine and Lowood, it had front wheel drive, rear wheel drive or four wheel drive according to Snow's taste on the day, used the Ford V8 engine in a Jeep... I have a photo somewhere... but who knows where?

Those 60's Indy turbine jobs were 4wd weren't they? When was it banned for Indy and F1 races?

Can anyone tell me what kind of car is that?
http://www.pbase.com/image/955630

Good on yer, Ray. Great picture of a wild device. Thanks for that one. Puts me in mind of the thinking behind the old AJB-Steyr.

Wheelie, that link you've offered up is an Auto Union streamliner from about 1936/7. I haven't my Sheldon book close to hand, so I can't say who's driving it. It's presumably at Avus. Perhaps one of our experten can pin it down more closely than I can.

Good photo, too!

I weakened... the Auto Union was identified as 1934 wasn't it?

Wheelie;
You have caused me great consternation...I have this exact picture in one of my books (and I thought in my computer) and I'll be damned if I can find it.
Our experts echo my guess...Auto-Union @ AVUS...but I know I have more but can't find it...and thus you have driven me crazy, partly through realization of how disorganized my materials is.
I would wager that Leif knows exactly.;)

Strad, the reason you recognise it is because it's one of the pictures we started this thread with!!!

Wheelie - it is indeed an Auto Union, with special streamlined bodywork for high-speed circuits and record breaking. This is a C-type, chassis number 76006/42/24, being driven by the great Bernd Rosemeyer in the AVUSrennen on May 30th 1937. He finished second in his heat and fourth in the final.

I know but I have the same photo somewhere around here with info....somewhere,,,he said looking at the mounds of material..;)

I'd be surprised if you have the photo - unless you're in my Grans' house :)

The picture of the streamliner is out there...trust me.....

I'm sorry, I think it must have been this similar pic from "The Power and the Glory"

Jeeez, the print came out real small:
Avus banking: Luigi Fagioli at speed on the North Curve in a streamlined Auto Union May 1937.........

As you can know,in 1931-1933 there was held GP in Lviv(now it's Ukraine and at that time it was under Poland).German teams also took part and Caraciolla won it twice IIRC.Besides,he said it was one of the most difficult tracks together with Monaco and Nurburgring.
Does anyone have photos of those GP?
P.S.Another variants of spelling the name of the city:Lvov(russian),Lemberg(german).

Thank you beforehand.

I've forgotten one more variant of spelling:Lwow(polish)-the most probable.
The races were titled "Lemberg GP".
Winners:1931-H.Stuck(Mercedes-Benz)
1932-R.Caracciola(Alfa-Romeo)
1933-E.Bjornstad(Alfa-Romeo)

Strad , sorry that i coused trouble and respect to all of you for your enormous knowledge about all those things. I was grown up in the 70's and thought that modern cars are state of the art but since i saw this pic i really have doubt about it...could it be that we gone backwards ?

Interesting thought wheelie. It's one of those what if questions which can never be answered properly. If the Auto Unions had raced on through the 1940s, I think most Grand Prix cars might have been rear-engined by 1945-50. Have a look at the pictures of the Sokol and the Cisitalia in another thread and seek out pictures of the unraced Alfa Romeo 512 and you'll see what I mean. It was 20 years before the Cooper rear-engined revolution happened - Grand Prix racing history would be very different I think!

Very true Vitesse...very true........
But you must understand that those cars handled horribly
Dr Porsche had discovered independent suspension, but not yet how to make it work..;)

It's said that the de Dion versions weren't that bad by the outbreak of the war...

Additionally, there were some others who saw the benefit of rear engine location... here's one on the grid at Baskerville in Tasmania in the late fifties, a car that was built about 1952 in Melbourne, the Wylie Javelin.

http://members.atlasf1.com/raybell/pics/baskgrid.JPG

The rear end included T-Model Ford parts, too...

My, it really looks tiny doesn't it? A very good visual comparison beside the front engine car beside it for the height of the driver etc. The poor chap on the second row must have been really racing on a budget--no outer body shell.

Originally posted by strad
Very true Vitesse...very true........
But you must understand that those cars handled horribly
Dr Porsche had discovered independent suspension, but not yet how to make it work..;)

Indeed, and the Alfa was reputedly a dog as well! But Coopers had eight or nine years of experience with the rear-engined layout before they decided to take Formula 1 seruiously. Auto Union had only been racing for six years in 1939, although there is a direct link back to earlier Benz Tropfenwagen.

Experience and knowledge of the shortcomings of the Alfa were part of Enzo Ferrari's antipathy to rear-engined cars. He had access to the testing data and knew it wasn't even as fast as the 158/159 series. Once he had beaten the Alfettas with the 375 and they still didn't bring out the 512 he must have thought his theory about rear-engined cars was right.

And suspension was certainly a factor, but so too was tyre technology (or lack of it) - who knows, even in the absence of sticky compounds someone might have adapted the double-wheel idea that was so common in hillclimbs of the time. Auito Union and the rest had plenty of power available - what they lacked was the means to transmit it to the road effectively.

""And suspension was certainly a factor, but so too was tyre technology (or lack of it) - who knows, even in the absence of sticky compounds someone might have adapted the double-wheel idea that was so common in hillclimbs of the time. Auito Union and the rest had plenty of power available - what they lacked was the means to transmit it to the road effectively."

Once again absolutely true...Man if they could have hooked up better.....

Originally posted by djb
My, it really looks tiny doesn't it? A very good visual comparison beside the front engine car beside it for the height of the driver etc.

This really was a clever car... the Jowett flat four was supercharged, it had originally used a motorcycle gearbox with some sort of bevel drive, but ultimately a standard Jowett box was bolted to a T-Model differential to form a transaxle. It had a de Dion rear end, and the engine was cradled to the chassis using some main bearing caps (true... it was!).

The poor chap on the second row must have been really racing on a budget--no outer body shell.

This was the apty named Bashmobile, the only photo of it I've ever seen. It had an early post-war Skoda chassis unit (they had a backbone, something like an Elan...) with a very hot Austin A40 (1940s type) engine.

Oh, yes, it got a body in the end... made of papier mache!