Formula Honda

plenty of chat about Forumla Honda (600) going about at the moment. I'm still a bit unconvinced about the series (why not race in F Fordies somewhere).. I think marshalling half hour races in the wet and James Pickford strolling off into the distance have something to do with it... but i'll take a fresh opinion this season.. so, can someone help convince me and answer the following queries?

This years calendar?
How much does a car cost (new and old)?
How may entrants this year?
Probable running costs?
Why is F Honda better than F Ford?

10 meetings, 13 races. Cadwell, Pembrey, Croft, Oulton, Mallory,Snet (2),Lydden, Brands, Donington.

New 17K + VAT. S/H 8k up.

12 or 14 definitely paid up, hopefully about 18, possibly more. (this series lacks proper publicity!!)

7k per season upwards. most expensive bit entries, testing fees. (thanks Octagon!)

for the answer to your last question, try to watch (and hear) both cars in action, you'll know. For starters:

Fraction of the cost.

14000 rpm; 6 speed sequential box, V little more than a family saloon engine/ box.

Slicks and wings.

I've driven both. For me there is no comparison.I am amazed that Honda don't get behind this, they could consign FF to the history books where it belongs. Please go and watch and make you own mind up.Better still, spend a couple of hundred or so and have a go yourself.

try to watch (and hear) both cars in action, you'll know

Ok, why are F Hondas better for spectators / drivers? I'm not sure that slicks and wings make them better to watch, but is this better for driver development?

All I think when I see FH is that I'd hate to haeva shunt in one, they look a bit on the dangerous side!

why do you say that 27Tim?

Dan, I would say it's different for driver development. A car that slides as soon as you turn it can teach a huge degree of car control technique, I think. you don't get that to the same extent with the Hondas I agree. However, where do you take that skill? there is precious little else where the cars are so 'loose'.

from my experience spectators prefer FH to FF because they look and sound like the big boys toys and the racing is generally close enough without looking stupid. Do people really enjoy watching half the field tangle wheels and crash? Maybe they do!

it's all a matter of opinion but i would say again, try it yourself, or at least watch one run and you can decide for yourself.

DSMJUNIOR,

To me they just look unsafe, I had a look at one a while back at brands and it didn't exaclty look substantial to me, not a great deal of crash protection also the drivers head looked very exposed. I wouldn't want to race one. But thats just me :)

I do admit I hardly studied it though, I could be totally wrong.

FFord consigned to the history books where it belongs?? What planet are you from?? Just one other thing DSM......what are you talking about?

I'll be doing selected races in both this year. Oulton and Anglsey. The FFord is an old one, but I won't get near newer with my budget.

As far as I'm concerned, maybe the FHonda's are a bit unsafe in a shunt, but so is the 79 van dieman I'm racing, so it evens out. If I wanted safe I'd drive the FPA, or Zip ford (no, wait, that's just hyped as safe)

If ever single seater had a spike in the centre of the steering wheel, maybe driving standards would improve, FFord only had loads of big wheels tangling crashes because of the young hot-shoes trying to prove something, fill the cars with middle aged business men, and notice how few bumps there are (CFPA??)

OK Tomgreen, you're a FF fan. tell me what's inherently good about the Formula? I don't mean it's marketing or it's position in the hierarchy of the sport. I mean in terms of chassis sophistication, engine specs. driver satisfaction, track performance, value for money and so on.

I appreciate that one good thing is that there are lots of easily affordable cars after all these years but that's not relevant to now or the future.

I'm also aware that FH is not run or promoted properly and that the cars could be improved. But if, say, FH was run as and achieved the same levels of performance and quality overall as the Radicals have in Sports, how would FF compare then?

NO, you started this by saying FFord should be where it belongs-in the history books. You should be the one explaining yourself. Just why should it be confined to the history books.
The reason i like FFord is because the racing is so good. Now you can correst me but i thought most SPECTATORS go to watch racing........
Now if you can produce a Formula Honda festival at Brands Hatch then maybe i might get off my arse and come and watch.
PS Radicals filled a gap in the market.....FH just added yet another single seater formula that will fizzle out in a few years like FPA.

I guess you don't have anything to say.

The overall quality of racing has little to do with the car being raced A full grid of FH, FPA or whatever has the possibility of producing close, good to watch racing - even cicus acts like the Legends. I wonder if you just like the accidents?

My point is that, from a technical and affordability point of view, FH, radicals and other motorcycle engined racecars make far more sense. The sad thing is that because of vested interests in the sport and the shortsightedness that Honda has always shown, certainly with regard to its cars in the UK, the ultimate potential will never be realised.

I would ask you to consider, from a competitor's point of view, the idea of a relatively simple composite tub, with small but genuine wings, durable slicks powered by any one of a range of engines with multi-valves, multi-cams, sequential box, injection, digital programmable ignition, forced induction, which can be picked up for hundreds of pounds, run all season with little maintenance and would destroy a FF on the track and be far more rewarding to drive. (bear in mind that a FH is little slower than a Zetec now, even with it's tiny engine).

And all this could be done for maybe a quarter of what it costs to race Zetecs in the UK.

I see that you're only looking at this from a spectator's point of view. in that case you're right. Full grids are essential and FH won't have that in the foreseeable because of the lack of proper marketing etc. Most spectators also go for the accidents so FF will continue to survive.

One final point. I know quite a few DRIVERS who've driven both FF and FH. I don't know any who prefer the Ford. Any drivers out there who would correct me? (polite and reasoned answers only , please)

Formula Honda: In Argentina we have (or had) a FH. It started at mid-90s and later declined; now looks dissapeared. I remember the best year was 1994 when the dominators were Esteban Tuero and Emiliano Spataro between others.

Originally posted by DSMJUNIOR
I am amazed that Honda don't get behind this, they could consign FF to the history books where it belongs.

I don't really care for the arguement over FH v FF but why do you think that FF should be consigned to the history books? Several people have asked this question, but its been ignored in replies. When you answer that question, then proceed with the rest of the discussion.

The Formula Ford cars are very popular, especially as classic FFord - it will be interesting to see if the Formula Honda cars survive!?

formula fords don't seem to be so popular this year if the entry list for the main series is to go by.

av8rirl. You're the second person to ask me to explain. Where do you get several from?

I'm sorry you're all having such difficulty understanding my argument. If you recap you will see that I have justified my statement. Once more I'll try to summarise but then you're on your own.

FF is outdated technology, irrelevant to progress witin motorsport and is maintained for reasons significantly other than the sport. There are many other (not just FH) more relevant opportunities for us all to move on to.

I'm sorry guys, if you can't make your own argument or understand what I'm saying .... I've got better things to do. Bye.

DSM - I have seen plenty of Formula Honda races.. see first post. I think marshalling half hour races in the wet and James Pickford strolling off into the distance have something to do with it... but i'll take a fresh opinion this season..

Would fancy a go in a FH, testing for a couple of hundred quid you reckon.. compares well against FZ.

You're agruement about outdated tecnology is fair enough.. but I'm not sure everyone understands what you're saying and perhaps explaination of why FF is now out dated is needed? Are motorbike engines the future of british motorsport / the car industry?? Do FH cars get updated each year - when was the car first designed / built?

FF seems the mmore progressive forumla to me.. although that doesn't mean that i think the cost is a good thing..

This is a discussion forum where such matters need to be thought through.. my mind is open to the subject..

Originally posted by DSMJUNIOR
FF is outdated technology, irrelevant to progress witin motorsport and is maintained for reasons significantly other than the sport.

DSMJUNIOR: Like Dan, I too would like to know what is out-dated about FF. I am assuming that we are all talking about Zetecs and not 1600's! Also like Dan, my mind is open to the subject. I am not involved in FF but would like to know your reasons for giving it bad press?

formula ford zetec rev to 6,000 rpm
formula honda rev to over 13,000 rpm mmm. no contenst there.

formula honda look the better with slicks and wings,were formula ford has none of that.

who ever said they formula honda looked dangerous is talking **** and should try to improve their motorsport knowledge. As formula honda look identicle to a formula ford zetec inside the cockpit.

revs have jack **** to do with the whole discussion.
I still can't see anywhere any explanation as to why FFord should be confined to the history books. So what is this technology that FH has that is so up to date then?

I AM NOT STUPID DSM BUT I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO SAY.

I'll attempt to answer the question then.

Formula ford should be consigned to the history books because as a professional series it no longer fulfills it's original purpose. The series was originally THE place to learn your trade, as we all know, so many huge F1 names have done FFord. (this is why it still has some prestige I feel, trading off it's long dead reputation, like so many F1 greats earning a living by dancing with Atomic Kitten at glitzy parties.)

The techniques employed in FFord racing are difficult to master, and have no use when you move up. A car with so little grip must be set up quite soft at the rear, for traction. This gives you a car that understeers alot. To counteract this you have to manhandle the back or the car, and slide it alot. This is very entertaining for the spectator, and fun for the driver I agree. Once you move up to.... I don't know, Formula Renault??? you cannot do this. You have much more grip, and you cannot throw the rear around and still be quick. So why did you spend the last year (several) learning how to? for the one time you get sideways in a race? Karting teaches you that to, and it's hardly work the years in FFord. Set up is learned, but not when considering aerodynamic requirement which often have to send setup in the opposite direction to the expected in FFord. How many FFord cars would run negative Ackermann for example? By learning that such things should go one way for better speed, then to be told the opposite is re-learning things that you could have jumped straight into in the first place.

Formula Ford is a very good spectator sport, but as a means of forwarding one's career, it is a waste of most peoples time these days. That is why young drivers are not doing it, and why Zip Ford is being pushed so hard. Karts, Zip, Renault. It's already carved in stone by the MSA and Mr Hines. FFord is dead already as a pro series, it just doesn't know it yet.

Oh, and FHonda is based on a hillclimber designed in the early 80's by John Corbyn. Becoming F600, then Formula Honda, it has suffered from bad promotion, and rumours of it being unsafe. So? it tells you on the ticket motorsport is dangerous, grow some balls. If you want to see what development has taken place, watch FHonda (with it's high nose, and uprated engine) this year. Matching ARP F3 times in testing last week. Still not quick enough? Watch the JEDI monoposto cars. Formula Hondas with an engine twice as big. Should destroy everything, FFords, FVauxhalls, you name it. I though it was quicker than the FPA.

Yes, I prefer FH to FF, because FH is quicker, more fun, and not a career ender. Well, unless you crash heavily, but that's the same anywhere.

If you read all the way to the end, please let me know what you think, because nobody is going to be right about this, it's all just opinions. That was mine :-)

Interesting points, jamesb, but I think a lot of people are having knee-jerk reactions about Ford. Last season the grids were capacity thanks to Jenson Button, this year, thanks to Kimi Raikkonen, the Renault grids are.
As Autosport said, Formula Ford is a victim of "fashion", and with a bit of work things should swing back in the other direction a bit in years to come, perhaps Formula Ford Junior will have to be stopped.
In my opinion Formula Ford could benefit from the sort of organisation press coverage Renault has got - controls on testing, components and development control costs, which have got way out of hand. When you can race in Fomula Renault for a similar price to Formula Ford, why bother with Ford? Renault's closer to F1.

When a driver decides which series to race in there are many factors, of which some of what I think are the most important are:

1) Price
2) Promotion
3) Hype

The first one's simple, a driver will race in the best championship possible with the money they've got.
The second one shows how much exposure a driver is going to get from a series - in Formula Honda this is zero, it's a club series with hardly any promotion at all. With Renault & Ford it's a great deal. Many more people will get to know your name if you race on the TOCA package, plus people watch out for the champions.
The third factor, hype, is what the driver thinks they can get out of the series. "Button raced in Formula Ford, he's in F1. Raikkonen raced in FRenault, he's in F1". Who's come out of Formula Honda? Compare last season's top drivers. Ford - Dahlgren's in F3, Long's in Renault for a top team. Renault - Breeze & Antinucci are in F3. Honda - Buncombe's in Renault for Saxon.

If it continues as a club series with 20 year old cars then Formula Honda will not go anywhere. It needs top class promotion, organisation and better exposure than it's got to propel drivers up through the formulae to F1.

Again if you read all this then thanks, it's only my opinion.

and there you have both sides.
fancy taking up politics Paul? we'd make a better duo than Tony and what's his name?

Good to see constructive comments

Louis,

Originally posted by louis
[B]formula ford zetec rev to 6,000 rpm
formula honda rev to over 13,000 rpm mmm. no contenst there.

Ah right, so the motor revs higher, I see, must be better then. As for there being 'no contest' I didn't realise there was one for which championship had the highest reving engine???

formula honda look the better with slicks and wings,were formula ford has none of that.

Hmmm, funny that, last time I drove a FF either the tyres were badly worn or it was on slicks.

who ever said they formula honda looked dangerous is talking **** and should try to improve their motorsport knowledge.

Personal insults, thats always constructive and helps get your point across.

formula honda look identicle to a formula ford zetec inside the cockpit.

Well thats strange, last time I tested the Vector FF it had padding on either side of the cockpit around the head in line with current saftey thinking. Still the Honda must have that too as you said they are identical. Or perhaps you might want to improve your motorsport knowledge.

At the end of the day one is a club championship with club drivers and the other a internationally renowned championship with some possible future world champions battling it out. If someone gave you the choice of free drives in one or the other...that would be a tough choice NOT! I'm not knocking it but lets keep things in perspective.

Originally posted by jamesb
and rumours of it being unsafe. So? it tells you on the ticket motorsport is dangerous, grow some balls.

Hmmm interesting comment. So you'll be racing with no helemt, belts, or fireproofs next round will you? Safety development over the last 20years has improved dramtically so why not benefit from it??? I enjoy racing for the speed, competition and the massive buzz. I don't enjoy sitting in hospital for 6months with 2 broken legs, where is the fun in that when you could be racing? Grow some balls? Bah!

a season in Formula Honda costs as little as £5,000. Where as a season in formula fords costs as much £125,000. A slight price difference there. if i had £125,000 i would never do formula fords there are far better classes available.

formula fords is a rip off, in formula where the cars look **** and are prone to accidents. Just like the one that happened in 99 where someone died and the numerous amounts of accidents that constantly occur due to interlocking wheels

http://www.geocities.com/lhsmotorsport/comingtowardscar.jpg

Loius.. hope you don't mind me using your picture from your site.. if so, I'll delete it of course..

Modern FF's are inherently safer than a FH car.. see lack of driver head protection.. When marhsalling, I'm not sure I've ever seen a FH hit anything hard.. so not completely sure. But I have seen cars with driver head protection hit tyre walls, and this has made a difference.

FF cars aren't prone to accidents, its the competitive way they're driven.. people battling to get to F1 are desperate, I'm not sure how Neil Shanahans (spelt very wrong and I apologise) accident outcome would have been any different in a FH.

FH cannot be compared to Brit FF.. FH is rated as a club championship.. So we need to be comparing it to regional FF, FV, Zip??, Monos.. how does it compare?

Don't think the photo worked anyway...

Very well put Dan. I agree 110%.

Well i see the 2001 formula honda champion has not been doing to badly in Formula Renault testing slightly faster than the Avon Junior champion i see, can't be that bader championship can it. There are some good drivers in it, probably better than some of the formula ford guys who get their rich dads to pay for their racing.

Louis, Who was the 2001 FH champ?

thanks...

Alex Buncombe

Originally posted by 27tim


Hmmm interesting comment. So you'll be racing with no helemt, belts, or fireproofs next round will you? Safety development over the last 20years has improved dramtically so why not benefit from it??? I enjoy racing for the speed, competition and the massive buzz. I don't enjoy sitting in hospital for 6months with 2 broken legs, where is the fun in that when you could be racing? Grow some balls? Bah!

Of course, that is exactly what I meant..... Lets not try to be funny here, if you were that worried about safety, and that hooked on the racing aspect, you could buy a playstation or a radio controlled car. Racing is all about the fear factor of speed... Full stop. There are enough programmes on tv about it for me to be fairly sure of that.

Yes. I agree that it's good that safety has improved, and yes I admit to buying the best helmet and fireproofs I can afford, but the risk is always there, and choosing a series purely on it's safety is a bit of a stretch. Historic racing is anything but safe, but I'm sure you'd love to drive a 1960's Lotus F1 as much as me.

As for the broken legs thing, why are you more likely to be in that situation in a FH, and not a FFord? you accept that may happen when you send for you license each year. Incidentally, if you have ever spun a FHonda, you will know that it is far less likely to hit anything hard anyway, it's lighter, and has lots of slick tyre to stop it. Once you loop it, it stops very quickly. Does the FFord?

I agree that you shouldn't really compare the 2 series as one is pro, the other club. My arguement is one is pro only because of it's history, and should really be club as well. FPA has more right to be pro than FFord, as do Tuscans. In my opinion.

:beer:

Right then.. if there's an arguement that the structure is incorrect.. what should replace FF?? It needs to be recognised on a global level and have a reputation of producing the best drivers in the world. What else can fulfill this?

I think you comments relating to safety are somewhat naive... safety is to do with common sense and continual improvement. And even in motor racing, you should take every opportunity to protect yourself. The FH was designed in the 1980's and lacks post Senna safety improvements.. it has therefore less driver protection than most other one make series.

Having marshalled for several years, sprinted last year and always hoping that I'll race - I certainly would consider which series I'd race in on safety grounds.. There are accidents I've seen which make me think carefully about this. I'm not sure you'd get me racing a FH.

But that's only my opinion!

i have had an accident in a formula honda car at 100mph at druids at Outlon Park and went straight into the barrier (as their was no run off available). I did not even scratch myself let alone have an injury, so the cars can't be that dangerous.

James, You comments strike me as bizarre on the aspects of safety.


Racing is all about the fear factor of speed... Full stop. There are enough programmes on tv about it for me to be fairly sure of that.


Its strange you need the views of someone else in a TV programme to formulate your own opinion. I race and fear only comes into it a very small percentage of the time. Perhaps if fear is a major aspect to you should have a look at your driving?


choosing a series purely on it's safety is a bit of a stretch. Historic racing is anything but safe, but I'm sure you'd love to drive a 1960's Lotus F1 as much as me.


Safety has a lot to do with it, if there were 2 similar formulas and one was safer than the other the choice would be obvious to me. Funnily enough I was having a similar conversation with an ex F1 driver a while back, whose old car was running in Boss. He said he went to have a look at it and wouldn't even consider racing it anymore purely on the safety aspect. And personally I would have no interest in driving a 60's GP car unless I wanted to experience death/broken limbs slightly more easily than I could do in a FH.

I want to make my racing as safe as possible and minimise the risks, that doesn't mean to say they are not there, but they have been reduced. Doing this does not take away any enjoyment what so ever. If that means I don't drive some machinery that I consider as unsafe its normally because its outdated design anyways. I want to be at the cutting edge and drive the latest cars, which 99% times means they are also the safest.

As I said I gain enjoyment from racing not from suffering life-threatening injuries/death.

Of course you are free to go race a historic with no belts or rollover bar where you sit on the fuel tank and that’s anyones choice, but its not one I would make. It doesn’t make me any slower than anyone else or affect my driving because I am always safe in the knowledge that if I do shunt I have done my best to take out the risks, so I’m always there giving it 10/10ths…In fact when I think about it safety is only something I think about outside the car.

How did you go in your FPA test a while back? Didn’t I read on the FPA site that you had been out? what time did you manage to do? Fun cars aren’t they eh? Plus the fact they have been FIA crash tested [;)]

Louis, Thats alright then, all accidents are the same so if you've been alright in one you'll walk from them all...

Of course guys its all in my humble opinion, I"m not knocking you, race what you feel comfortable in and I'll do whats right for me. It's all good :)

Tim what do you race or raced in? just wondering

thanks

Louis, Last time out was in FPA.

Are you out in FH again this year? If so hope you have a great year :)

Tim.

cheers, you to

Louis

I think my comment about the tv was taken out of context. It was meant to demonstrate the many medical investigations into the biological reasons for the human facination with speed. If it came across that I accept anything I see on tv without question I appologise. This is not the case or I would belive in 8 foot tall talking birds, witches, vampires and Warp engines. Please re-read my comment with this in mind... it should make a little more sense.

I totally accept your opinion Tim, though my own may differ. Your contempt for my ideas on this is also understandable, as logically I should be considering safety. I do. Though I will race a car that may be considered unsafe due to it's design, it does not mean I would get in a car I felt was not maintained. I would rather drive a 1960's deathtrap, than a FPA with a cracked sidewall for example. The reason being I am aware that a mistake could kill me in the deathtrap, whereas it's out of my hands with the tyre. I guess my outlook is somewhat different, but when you spent you youth racing, (and flying) some less that state of the art machinary, you tend not to assess the potential problems that seriously. Don't crash it, and it's safety features don't matter anyway right?

I didn't get to really push the FPA unfortuanatly. I was looking forward to the slicks and wings, as I'd not really known enough about single seaters to appreciate them in the past. Just my luck it rained, and blew a gale. My fastest time was 1:19 something I think. about 2 seconds off the fastest of the day, set by a guy who tested all day the day before aswell, and had a lot of experience. I though I did ok, for my first single seater in the wet, with a turbo (which I'd never done before), at a circuit I'd never been to, with only 1 hour track time. My data showed I was loosing 1.4 seconds to the guy in 1 corner, and if I had been less worried about the £1500 insurance excess, (that says a lot, just been preaching how I'm not too bothered about the risks to me, and then tell everyone how I wrapped my chequebook in cotton wool for the day) I would have been closer with a more aggressive line. I was actually quicker through some corners, which I thought was very promising. Wish it had been dry though, as I feel I wasted my money a bit as it was too wet, and too windy to learn much (although I did learn a bit) it was more like a fast formula ford. One thing I did learn was that my new "aerodynamically sculpted" helmet is ****, and almost ripped my head off (mild exageration) with helmet lift. Might have been the extra wind (combined windspeed about 160mph I think) but it means I need one of those ugly spoilers on the back now. Dammit!

Otherwise I was very impressed with the FPA, and palmersport. Felt I got fobbed off a bit, as I had money to do a couple of races, and got the impression I was considered to be a bit of a time waster, which bugged me, (probably the company I keep) but my money is going elsewhere now, so I'm not bothered, I get 3 times as many races in FHonda, and my mates can talk as much bullsh#t as they like without it reflecting badly on me.

Are you FPA again this year Tim? If so good luck, if not, what are you racing?
Are you in FHonda this year Louis? I heard about your accident I think. Was it the one they had to cut the car open? That was at Oulton I think. Not a scratch on the guy apparently. Could be wrong.

Sorry, with the big above reply, forgot to answer Dan.
I think FFord does not need replacing.
I see no reason why you can't go Zip, Renault, and obviously Mr. HInes and the MSA agree, as they are running that very idea as the prize for the championship winner.
Whether it works or not only time will tell, but I think they (aforementioned) are carving FFords headstone as we speak. I could be wrong, but usually, if it stinks it tends to be rotten. (except fish)

Saw these for the first time yesterday at Cadwell Park. They looked quite professional and spectacular on that circuit, though I don't know about when they get to the wide boring places.And what was the lone Yamaha doing? No doubt a left over from a previous formula?

For a single seater VIRGIN who as many want to do well. Is It really a possibility to get started in the class as a priveteer on a £6,000 budget?:banghead:

I see the Formula Honda championship is allowing other cars into the series. Is there any other cars entered yet?

Reigning Formula Honda champion Alex Buncombe was an excellent 5th fastest in today's official Formula renault test at Silverstone and was quickest overall in the day's second session.

Good stuff.

There were 19 formula Honda cars at Cadwell and 1 other Single Seater.

but other single seater cars are not really wanted in the championship.

19 is a very good grid, its a wonder why they allow others in.

They allowed in the old BRSCC/BARC Single Seater series as the only way the BRSCC would allow the series to continue, but that perhaps looks a dodgy decision already.

JSC - You could probably do it for £6,000 as long as you knew what you were doing. I think you might also find you need a feq quid to buy a car though?!

Got news about the "accident" in which a guy had to be cut out. My old "reliable" source was wrong. The accident actually happened about 15 years ago at Donnington, and yes the guy had substantial leg injuries, and had to be cut out. The reason was that he was not wearing his crotch straps, and slid out of his harness.
This comes from a very, very reliable source, ie. one of the top guys involved in Formula Honda.
Did any of you see the mess on Churchman and Corbyn's car after Cadwell? I'd say they are safer than most give them credit for.

what happened to churchman car, did he do much damage?

went off on the corner onto the start finish straight (forget the name). He hit the wall very hard, and messed up the left side of the car, front and rear. We had a hell of a job getting the car into the truck after. Told us he just pushed to hard and went off. Not many guys would say that.