Regional Formuls Ford

Let's have a good debate about FF1600s vs Zetecs for regional series as it appears that these series are finally moving towards the Zetecs.
What does anyone know and/or think?

full grid of 32 cars at Castle Combe for the 1600 races nearly every meeting and it never dips below 28, so there is no lack of interest there, maybe its the way the championship is managed or the lack of an alternative that creates this, but I see no reason to change to Zetec. Kent is best!

Matt

The races are great with the kent cars, still very close and most cars very well presented. As long as the grids are there, why change! One thing I personally dont like, is that they sound a bit like tractors!

Hi JR, welcome to the forum.
No, the tractor sound isn't very sexy is it?

Hmmmm.
Combe is quite unique I think with their very strong series.
Snetterton last weekend - Southern champs - more Zetecs than Kents which was a surprise, to me at least.
Star of Mids looks quite weak to me - reduced numbers and reduced quality perhaps (not meant as any insult to anybody). I hear Oulton still planning Zetecs for next year. Scottish series starting to take off.
Don't you think the old 1600s are getting and LOOKING pretty old now.
Maybe Zetecs would shake things up a bit and attract new, young drivers.
My prediction:
In a year or two, juniors and seniors go back to one series (with classes) and strong regional series to act as feeders/starters with classed for both Zetecs and Kents - but the Zetecs will the 'top class.'

Zetecs will be starting to pave their way through, there are now so many Zetecs for sale at present, that I think over the next year or two people will be upgrading to the newer class. Also if you look in the market place now, it is flooded with some of the earlier Zetecs and can be found at the same prices as well sorted Kents. If you look at say the Van Dieman chassis, I think (correct me if Im wrong)it has been an evolution chassis since 98, so you can buy an earlier car and update it for not a great deal.

Spinner
I'm pretty sure the 95,96,97 are all similar with just tidying up, primarily, the front end for straight line speed. The rear suspension is identical.
The 98 had a pretty radical front suspension set-up which even VD will now admit doesn't work. It is as quick as the 97 but no quicker.
The 99 was a new shape - quicker straight line again - but, initially, the front suspension didn't work that well. they altered it 4 times during the year.
The 2000 is effectively the last spec 99 with the engine pushed in more to make it very slightly shorter and with the alternator hanging off a driveshaft.
The 2001 is the 2000 with another badge. 1mm shorter - monoshock becoming more popular.
The 2002 is the 2001 - again monoshock but people starting to move away to dula shocks for better handling over the bumps (kerbs).
The 99 as such cannot be upgraded to, say, a 2001 car but is no slower to start with anyway!

:banghead: Thaks for clearing that up. I was nearlly right!?! You understand my point though I think.

The 1600 class is just about to restart (with talk of up to 20 cars by the end of the season) in Ireland after being missing for the last 2 years. Zetecs have cancelled their first 2 races of the season because they can't get grids. I certainly hope the Kents come back strongly. How much is a Kent going for in the UK? and what are the chassis and engine combinations to have? I'm thinking of the FF festival at the end of the year.

The FF1600s were out at Kirkistown last weekend. What a CLASS! :)

Some absolutely nail-biting racing - I'd love to see more of them.

The thing with the kent engined cars are that they have the right ratio of grip and power. Zetecs are way over gripped for the power they have with poeple always complaining of understeer because of so much grip at the rear. It takes a while for anyone to learn how to carry the speed into corners while keeping the front end gripping.

So, the 1600 cars are more chuckable and provide more confidence in diving up the inside or outside of people because you can be more sure of getting out of the corner, thats why its always such good racing.

you can get a good competitive car for about 5,500 thats a swift 92/93 or a van diemen 90-92. The Ray is also a fantastic car and I know of one for sale so let me know if you are interested. its a 2000 ex swedish championship winner!

Matt

The 750 motor club run a class for pre98 zetecs in the uk, and they are struggling a bit with entries. The monoposto series also allows zetecs to race in them, but again not many are out.

Also was it in the 98 season that there was a rule change, wider track/cockpit dimensions, so if a zetec class started up why not have one for these earlier cars. They may be harder to find but cheaper than a 2000/2001 chassis.

Not a bad idea Tony.
Mattray is right.
Having raced both the Zetec is a right b*stard to get into the corners without losing all the speed and requires a far more confident driver than a 1600. Go in without much confidence, lift off ...... you're gone!
My angle in starting this thread is that I think both are fantastic and I am mad on both but I do think the 1600s are a bit long in the tooth and if we moved more to club Zetecs the racing would be at least as good and more modern machinery does attract more people without doubt.
Mattray is right, the Zetec is a bit more complicated to set up but NO WAY costs more than an FF1600 to run - it should be quite a bit LESS. My experience does bear this out.
I do wonder if people who own FF1600s are really just concerned of the long-term values of their cars.........

My car is a 97 Ray and is one of the more modern cars out there not counting John Adlams Van Diemen 01 (an australian bound kent 01) The costs of running a kent is boosted by the engine builds and thats the only extra cost I can think of compared to a zetec.

Where the cost of a Zetec car rises above the cost of a Kent as far as I can see, is when people running at the front are testing to get good at driving them. They test which makes them better drivers and then spend money on tyres to make the car consistant with how it was in testing. With a kent not as much testing is needed to be fast and the tyres remain pretty constant throughout. I did all last year in a Van Diemen 89 on 1 set of tyres albeit with no testing and dry running throughout, but I won the castle Combe class B championship and came second overall.

So although running a zetec is cheaper, being competive in one is more costly because of the testing and tyre costs.

As far as the value of the cars goes, I think the zetecs are far more likely to lose value then a kent because of the newer versions coming in all of the time being supposedly more competitive forcing the costs of the older cars down.

Kent cars have been pretty stable throughout the past 5 years at about 5,500 to 7,500. and thats for cars built from 89 to 95.

Matt

How often are kent engines being rebuilt? as opposed to a zetec?

both are usually done every year but kents usually require a new crank because they crack and zetecs dont often need them. I dont think there is a lot that is done to the Zetec engine, the power change between a production zetec and race spec engine mainly comes from the ECU. The kent is a little more reliant upon a good engine builder.

I have been waiting for this thread to appear...I think that the popularity of the Kent class is returning, witness the decision a few weeks ago to boost the FF Festival this year with 'King of Kent' races, with heats and a final. Recent FF FEstivals have been spoilt by lacklustre processional races..Thats my opinion anyway!

The Zetec has a more modern engine and all surrounding electrics, systems etc.
In theory a rebuild is a waste of time as the engine is designed to 200,000 miles up the M1/M6 in a Mondeo, although people do of course love to throw their money away.
More realistically they don't go wrong but if they do, you could be looking at alot of cash for ECU, airflow meter etc. etc.
Tyres can be very cheap for club Zetecs as people often run ex-National team tyres.
The tyres lose a slight edge after about 70 miles but are then very consistent for upto another 1000 miles or so. Teams change them after the 70 mile mark and will generally sell you a set for £20/£30.

Is there any site (hopefully a good one) dedicated to the FF Festival??? And FF1600 in the UK?

No Uk site that I know of, its a shame I think it would be pretty popular.

JR, its alright saying that they last for 1000 or so after 70 miles but what happens when the people at the front start buying new tyres to be faster? everyone else does the same to catch up and the cost goes up. This always happens the more popular a championship gets.

Matt

http://www.matthewrivett.co.uk

Quite true Mattray
I was talking about the cost of competing - not winning or dominating

oh I see... I think

JR what you say is very true, the Zetec engine is capable of running up and down the motorway for 200k miles, however history has proved the Kent engine to be just as robust. What is really needed here is for someone to actually bite the bullet and re-write the Kent regs. For example, if you re-build a kent engine the regs specify that you must use an iron crank - these are becoming as rare as hens teeth, consequently cost a fortune. However, steel cranks, whilst initially expensive last for ever. This is a simple modification to the regs that would enhance the life of a very popular racing category that has given a lot of peole a lot of fun....

The iron cranks are now up to about £600!! they changed the way they were manufactured which put the cost up from the £300 they used to be. I have heard of zetecs being lifed at 4000 which seems a lot anyone know any different?

Matt

Originally posted by mattray
I have heard of zetecs being lifed at 4000 which seems a lot anyone know any different?


Do you mean 4000 miles between rebuild?

Excluding the initial outlay and tyres, the Zetec was cheaper to run that the Kent compared like to like.

Our biggest problem was just to be competitive, we needed new tyres each race, this was where it differed from Kent.

I love both Zetec and Kent , both have there place ,.
but if you want cheap and reliable you can not beat Zetec ie you can get a 99/001 Van Diemen form anything like 5/8 k
also you can pick up a good motor for top whack £2k , so you could have say a 99 Van Diemen on the button for 9k.
it looks the muts nuts and it is eligeble for loads of racing world wide, and best of all unless you shunt it it will just run and run no rebiulding the motor for say 3 seasons , thats how good the Zetec engine is.

Yes I meant between rebiulds.

I would have thought that tyres was one of the main running costs with a zetec. And with a Kent it would be the Engine. I estimate needing 2 sets for this year in the kent.

TVR
You are a top chap.
BOTH types are the best

Mattray
I am surprised and in admiration of your tyre usage.
My understanding was that later Kent cars work their tyres much harder.
One of last year regional champions told me that, with his set up, a complete set of tyres was destroyed each race meeting - apart from perhaps one of the right hand tyres (which should tell you which circuit we are taling about) and that thus tyres were the biggest partof his budget by far.
If Zetec tyres are a problem you could just limit them in 'club' series.
Like the seniors are allowed 4 tyres per meeting and the juniors 2, 'club' races could have 1 new tyre per meeting (except your first meeting of course (and again excepting force majeure)).

It's true ref: tyre usage on kent FF. I also used a 1 set of tyres for dry and 1 for wet. i used the dry set for 9 races, 10 qualifying, and 3 test sessions. Sounds a lot, but i also used them for the first race this year and won in class.

The RF89 type Kent is easy on tyres. Later models only find their additional speed through greater mechanical grip, ie. tyre wear.

Back in the old days (1980s) we had 4 national FF1600 championships supported by local series.
While we can't go back to the 4 main series perhaps, we should work on the regional series.
These series used to be seen as pukka feeder series to the nationals but not any more.
How many people have come through local FF1600 in recent years - a few - as opposed to the previous masses.
Whether Kent drivers like to admit it or not, their series become more and more clubby each year. Average driver ages are going up and up (like the lap times generally) and if something isn't done NOW, these series will die, slowly perhaps but surely! All regional champs should have Zetec and Kent excpet perhaps Combe which is not really a regional championship, more a local one (albeit perhaps strong)

Its all about the trends of the time, your right if something is not done the trend will go towards zetec cars for regional championships rightly or wrongly, but the trend of average driver ages will increase with the cost of competing. The more popular it becomes the more expensive it will get. The advantage that Kent cars have over Zetecs is that it cant really get much more expensive then it is. It is true that the engines will become more expensive as the parts become rarer but this is being looked into and a change is due soon.

And yes it is true that the more modern cars use their tyres better because they are stiffer, and have less mecahnical grip meaning that the weight is pushed onto the tyres. (my understanding of mecanical grip is that the softer the car the more mecahnical grip and the stiffer it is the less mechanical grip and the more gripis generated by the tyre)

I haven't got the goggiest but I know what you mean

So Mattray
I think we agree that:

1) Kents are easier to drive (an thus more fun for the less experienced

2) Kents generally do provide more spectacular racing

3) Kents/Zetecs probably don't cost all that different amounts to run, all in all. As time goes on more people are going to go the Jadlam route which must be more bloody expensive than the Zetecs

4) If the Kents aren't changed, things will die (slowly perhaps, but surely)

So therefore, I put my original thought that we must move to a Zetec and Kent combined route regionally to ensure strength, longevity and, hopefully, have thriving, more meaningful series again in the future.

If not, in a few years time we shall still all be on the forum lamenting the loss of these fantastic series.

I urge everyone - campaign the BRSCC for change.

Change for the Kent engine regs (marginally)

Change for Zetecs to be allowed too in all series, albeit cost controlled where possible (ie tyres)

I believe this is the only way to safeguard these wonderful championships WHICH WE MUST NOT ALLOW TO DIE!

Just look at everyone going on about Vauxhall Juniors on this site..........

Very Well put 100%

I agree with points 1 and 2 but point 3 I dont because zetec is more expensive and always will be but I guess we are going to just have to disagree with that. The regs for the kents do need to be changed to allow it to continue as it has done, and not get more and more expensive. The Jadlam route is an exception and I cant see many people doing the same when they realise the cost of replacement parts.

The main point I dissagree with you on is that to maintain the kents they need to be combined with the zetecs. Will this not just dillute the championships we have now and make it even more confusing for the spectators? How can this be a good thing?

Why not keep the strong kent championships kent based and do something to keep them strong and provide a zetec championship where there is a demand?

Just coming back to the tyre point, there is an inexhaustable supply of secondhand tyres available. The teams bin them after one race and test and would be happy to sell them on for 3/5ths of sod all. So your tyre budget for a season can be very low.

Some good points coming out here. But the kent is great for novices as any engine rebuilds can be with a little assistance be done yourself. There is nothing too complicated , no fancy, expensive and confusing electronics. A kent engine management system may consist of a £130 Lumenition Black box. As they run on carbs too any trackside repairs can be done with ease.
Both formulas have their place but please dont write off the kents just yet.

£600 for a crank........dohhh just sold a complete engine for £150.

When I did Kent County FF Zetec we were limited to 6 tyres a meeting + unlimited wets, you declared the tires you'd use a scritunering and they would mark them and take serial numbers in a little book, then compare after the race.

Use unregistered tyres without permission (qualify crash, etc.) and you were out, simple as that.

Have they lifted this rule now?

(I remember at the Festival after all was done nicking all of Van Diemens tyres out the skip, we had enough for all the testing for the following year!)

Ian-S,

The rule still exists in the Southern Formula Ford Zetec class and I think it's the same for the Kents too. It works too: at the Snett round MDR's Eddie James was chucked out of the results because he was running a different set of tyres as the ones submitted to the scrutineers.

Mattray,

Zetec isn't that expensive at all. Although I've spent more money on the car (which is only a year old) the running costs are very similar to my old Kent.

The only thing that's cost me more money, so far this season, is testing and tyres. Everybody seems to get blinded by the costs of Zetec Formula Ford by looking at the bills the National and Avon Cup teams charge.

Keith

Ahem, some agreement!
I thought the tyres were limited to 2 per meeting?
The Combe and Oulton Kent series are strong.
The South and Midlands are weak and should be more Zetec based.
Matt, the problem with the "demand" is that you can't really tell that if they aren't being run at present.
The Southern Zetecs has not really enough numbers but the Kents are struggling as much, if not more.
Let the Zetecs into the midlands as a combined series and numbers would definitely go up. It may take a couple of years but, if no changes are made NOW, the series could be dead by then.
People need to get over the new car bit on Zetecs. Look at the times done in 2001, 2000, 1999, 1998 and 1997 and you will see there has been little real improvement in speed.
The 98VD was slower than the 97. The 99 VD was said to be a lot quicker yet the Mygale won in 98 and 99 and the Mygale 99 is the same car as the 98.
The Mygale 2000 and 2001 are the same car too in reality and that car is upto current speed now.
A 96 VD is quick too - 95s and earlier are probably a bit down but even then the 95, 96 and 97 VD has exactly the same rear end!
An older Zetec can be competitive in local series - just as Matt has proved the RF89 can beat RF90s etc in Kent racing.

Originally posted by Keefyboy
Everybody seems to get blinded by the costs of Zetec Formula Ford by looking at the bills the National and Avon Cup teams charge.
Keith

That's the reason Luke is doing Southern isn't it? 'cos Martin wouldn't pay National rates?

The costs of the national series are stupid, 200k plus for the season, crazy prices.

JR Ewing, you say the South and Midlands series are weak, 20 drivers or so at each race is not weak. Its not full grids but hey how many series in the uk have full grids.

I agree with letting Zetecs in to the series. As I think I have said before was there not some big rule change in 97/98. If so have the Zetec class for these 'older' cars. The only trouble is where have all of these older zetec cars gone, yes there are a few around in the 750mc series, sprints, hillclims and Monoposto, but not the hundreds that have been made. And why has someone not brought out a series for 2-3 year old cars when zetecs first came out.

Please don't quote crazy prices, the Formula is suffering enough from 'Ford in Crisis' headlines without £200k budgets being put arround. Name one Team who has quoted that, if you can't name one please don't make things up. The factory Team may quote over £100k, maximum £120k but Team JLR quote £95k including all insurance, Marque cars offer an even cheaper deal with the Ray just ring them, I have. The senior grid at the weekend was 18 cars, same as A class F3 with more to come. Two privateer Team's and two manufacturers were on the podium in round 3

ok I might have been slightly wrong with the prices, but I am sure it is a bit more than 120k. I know from one person who compeated (ran the team) on a budget of about £40k last year and got the same results from someone who was spending top amounts. But still for what you compeating in it is very expensive, I am talking about the National zetec series here. The Junior series is a bit more cost effective. But then again you can spend what you like but if the team is not very good the young drivers will not go far. Do the prices you mention include accident damagge, because I know it is more than a grand per corner of the car to be repaired. Is that value the same for the kent engined cars??

Thing is where do all the chassis go after two/three seasons of racing, broken down for spares/scrap or left in a corner, go abroad?. Until a regional/national series takes off for older zetec chassis then the chassis will be left doing nothing.

Ian-S,

That's right mate. Luke's dad isn't willing to pay the money, which is wicked! I think there should be others like him in the same position willing to make a stand.

As far as crazy prices go, I've never heard of £200k budgets. I was quoted figures of £120k for National and £90k for Avon for 2002. However I recently heard that the cost for Senior Formula Ford for this year has been dropped to £80k. It's still pricey, especially when you consider that FFord is only supposed to be the second step of the 'Motorsport Ladder' .

Keith

A very good link nice one, but ! Zetecs dont have to be that expensive at club leval, I won the 2001 kent county zetecs on 2 sets of tyres and one test day at the beginning of the year.

Having said that I wasnt a beginner so could get away with sod all testing, I agree that to learn how to drive zetec you would need alot of running time to be anywhere near the pace.

Watching Matt at Coombe, theres no way you can get away with driving a Zetec if the way he drives his Kent, which is a shame because it looks bloody good fun.

20 cars Tony - Southern (Kent) does not have that many out and the Midlands has been bolstered for its first couple of rounds by people from Combe/Oulton using it as testing.
I think numbers will drop there from now on.
The midlands people have had some good ideas - good prize money - the relaunched Master of Mallory all skirts the point. Have 2 classes - one kent, one zetec and the numbers would be up. The zetecs are quicker so the kents would have their "own race" without being mixed up into (irrelevant) classes for the spectators but they are not so much slower as to be lapped. Ideal surely??

I agree that having another class for zetec cars is the way forward. The question is for which years, the southen series has gone the way of letting any age in, but that means buying a £10k car to be at the front(more modern cars is the quickest is not it?). I say have two zetec classes, one for earlier age chassis, say pre97/98, when ever the rule change happened. And then have a class for the cars after that, say post 98 upto pre 2001 (if the series started this year). I say use pre 2001 as the 2001 cars are still the most expensive and are still used more in the junior seriees. It will also stop the junior series runners going out and gettignmore miles under there belt, and putting off the rest of the field. Or for the midland series have just pre 98 or so cars running for a few years.

£200 K isnt far off for some lads, ive heard of tyre budgets at 55k for a season with the same driver in question (no names) spending £220k in Avon Juniors (total)
and he didnt win it, or any races for that matter

crazy but very true !!!

I dont understand Luke Hines at all, yeah fair enough not doing the Slick 50's again, but the amount of testing he's doing for the southern county and the amount of tyres ive seen him using could easily make him competitive in Juniors to do him some good, they say he's just doing it to keep his eye in while looking for other drives, touring cars etc, as luke mentioned in his interview at Snett, but he may as well just test, he wins the races so easily he's not doing any overtaking. I personally dont see the point at all, yeah he'll win a champioship but what good that will do i dont no, especially when he could have been in with a shout of the junior title.

Well thats just my opinion.

Just to let everybody know, Southern Formula Ford had 18 entries for round 1, 17 entries for round 2 and 3 and last weekend saw 16 cars entered. A couple of regulars were out because of illness but overall a pretty good turn out.

JR Ewing,

Having two classes does cause head ache for the good Kent driver. I'd hate it if my victory wasn't noticed because the Zetec boys stole all the limelight at the front of the field. This won't help to get potential sponsors either...

My view is this:

I hate to say it but the Kent series should be classed as a classic series now and have three seperate classes to keep everybody happy.

The Zetec's are fine as they are, but it would benefit from having a seperate class for Pre-99 cars. The 1999-onwards cars are quite a bit quicker.

It wouldn't hurt to encourage us drivers too. We pay way too much money on entries to get nothing back other than a poxy ten minute qualifying session and a 12 lap race. Banger racers get start money for christs sake, why can't we?

Keith

Dantley,

Just to stick up for Luke, I've tested before every round just like him. I can't comment on how many tyres his used but to be fair he can only use the same amount of tyres at every race as everybody else. So there's no problem there so far.

His very quick and that's because of one thing... experience. His had similar track time in a Formula Ford this year as me, but he has got two series of competitive Formula Ford racing behind him in 2000 and 2001.

This is where he had test after test and now he and the team have a vast amount of knowledge to look back on. So you're being a little unfair on him in, but I can see your point.

Like I said before it's not Luke wanting to do the series, it's more his dad wanting to make a point. At Snett he was more interested in beating the Avon Cup boys fastest lap rather than winning the Southern race. Besides his not racing every round anyway.

Last weekend at Brands he set the fastest lap at around a 49.3. It was a slow race but my fastest was a 49.6. His not unbeatble, it'll just take me and the rest of the field a while to catch up on his vast experience...

Keith

I respect their decision, I sure it is more his dads, I just feel that with the speed he has and the fact that without anymore additional testing on what he does for the southern champs he would do bloody well in juniors which would help him more.

I do less testing than him for junior because we cant afford it but I was still 3rd fastest at Donnington behind Smith an Clucus, our championship is also has less rounds so you could get away with even less testing.

Yeah Luke did beat our junior times at snett and everyone took note of that im sure, one thing i can see is that afetr Clucus blew his motor the track was slow but thats not taking it away from luke.

You went well on the weekend, !? nearly a good fight in the pit lane during qualifying as well, that guys in my car from last year, not that i help run him.



I was at Brans on the weekend, the track was covered in **** before the race never mind after, Graham hill must have been interesting.

Dantley,

Whoops, you must of seen me chuck the toys out of my pram too! The guy hasn't got a clue about flag signals, so I expressed my frustrations... in his face. It livened up the dull pit lane anyway!

What really p****d me off was the fact I'm in a similar postition as you, I can't afford to bend the car. Mr Bank Manager has already got me by the short and curlies and the last thing I needed was a damaged car.

I had an alright race, just a bit gutted that I spent the majority of it defending (which I hate with a passion!). Nevermind, at least Graham Hill made things interesting on the last lap!

How's the championship campaign going?

Keith

You certainly did liven up the pit lane, ! ! ! !

It is a nightmare when in the back of your mind you know you have to take it that little bit easier as to not bend it, we had that trouble last year, and some how got away with a damage free year, that was until we tried the donnington Avon Cup race and got taken out head on into the barriers at regate, that put pay to any tesing racing etc over the winter, it was 6 months before we got back out for our first test for this years Avon juniors,

we got the money at the last minute to do the first race, which was wicked but we were way behind on testing and im in a Mygale rather than a Van Diemen this year, but we ran in the top 6 at snett untill Clucus blew up literally right in front of me, then at Donni last weekend again in the top 6 and looking good with our pace for 3rd or 4th when I had my race and car wrecked by a spinning Jay Howard and Goodwin and was collected by others avoiding them.

But its good to know we can mix it with alot more speed to come if we can do more testing, we've got Knockhill Croft and thruxton later in the year tracks ive never seen never mind driven so we're gona have to try and test a them some how to make it worth while going.

Wouldn't mind doing some Southern countys as well if we get the money together.

You dont wana worry about having to defend to Chris pennigton, he's not bad at all, although i think he was expecting to be winning from the off this year, I would imagine it made his day when he found out Luke was going to be out this year.

Dantley

I had a great scrap with Chris and his one of the very few drivers in the championship that I don't mind (ie: trust!) fighting wheel to wheel with.

I agree with you mate, Chris was the favourite at the start of the year. It came as a big shock to everybody that Luke was racing in some of the championship.

Sounds like you're doing well for yourself. You'll have to get the Playstation out and play TOCA 2 or something to learn Croft, Thruxton and sunny Knockhill. It's the cheapest way!

Keith

Most people seem to agree that the Kents need to change, ie. zetecs going forward.
Why aren't the BRSCC (not SE centre) doing anything?
Maybe L Hines is trying to do a Priaulx by winning every round?

JR Ewing,

He won't win every round. His got commitments with the Zip Formula so his got to miss some. Even so, he seems to be enjoying it so I think he'll do as many as he can?

"Why aren't the BRSCC (not SE centre) doing anything?"

About what? Luke or the Championship?

Keith

Making midlands and maybe oulton zetecs as well as kents

£95k for 18 races in senior with 30 days testing
£65k for 12 races in Avon Junior with 20 days testing
This works out at exactly the same price per race and much cheaper per test and senior is a brand new car and in front of 20,000 spectators and a good support package.
Yes it includes insurance for senior, which is the same as accident damage.

I agree that as soon as regional goes Zetec the better. the cars will be worth more second hand and the Teams will be better off, hopefully passing on the reduced budget.

Just to go back to whether the Star of the Midlands is a weak series... Numerically it's a pretty low ebb, but also in terms of quality. Gone are the days of Sugden v Dean in the late 1980s, and even through most of the 1990s there were some good (mainly club) racers involved. Even worse this year is a relative lack of potential race winners.

Should the Midlands go Zetec? Maybe. There's a good spread of circuits on the calendar now so it would be a reasonably worthwhile championship. I can't see too many entries, at least in the early stages, however.

not really sure what the budget for national zetecs has got to do with the budgets for regional zetec, specially not sure what luke hines has got to do with it, when the only reason he is being forced to do the southern championship is because his dad is trying to sell his zip championship and cant be seen to be spending money on zetecs when he is trying to sell his championship as an alternative.(just look at the advert in Autosport saying do you want to save 100,000) its a tough position for luke but thats that.

it seems to me that everyone who has run zetecs is in agreement that the cost of repairing and the cost of tyres is more expensive but at the moment not a huge amount more expensive then kents. BUT as I have said it just takes a couple of people to spend more on testing and tyres and everyone will be forced to do the same to keep up. its the nature of racing thats just what happens.

and "Dantly" as far as my driving at combe goes I am glad it looks exciting but I know it wouldnt work in a zetec and I would adjust to the car.(I have worked with zetecs for the last 4 years and have had to explain this to every driver we have had, that being, adjust their driving for the car because we cant make it any less top heavy at the rear, and make it handle more like a kart or whatever they think is better)

Matt

SO do you think the Kent is a better starting block for complete beginners, I know you have to change the driving style for a zetec but having only driven zetecs i dont know much about what you can get away with in a kent,

My comment about your driving at coombe was about it being great to see as a spectator, please dont think I meant you couldnt drive a zetec, I know you can having raced you at silverstone when you stepped in for Yonny, I just think a strong field of kents is bloody good entertaiment, and that going Zetecs isnt a must.

Jon

It's ok I didnt see it as a critisism, and I really should add that that race at Silverstone was a mare for me because we had Mintex pads and they were totally glazed making it impossible for me to stop, we changed to Hawk after that and it was a different car!

With a kent you are obliged to keep the engine going by making it slide into and out of the corners, if you go into a corner keeping the rear stuck to the ground i will bog the engine and effect that lap times. This being so you can get it at all sorts of angles and not really effect the lap time the same as you would a zetec. Because from what I have felt with a zetec it takes a whole lot longer for it to come back into line once it starts sliding. (feels like there is a huge weight at the rear) I think a zetec for a beginer teaches a driver to be precise just look at the good people in national zetec they are doing exactly the same thing every lap because they know any mistake will lose a lot of time. Thats why it takes so much testing to be fast in one. In a kent you can get away with a lot more because it comes back faster from a slide.

Matt

Matt
What Mintex pads did you have? 44s or 55s?
What Hawks did you run and what were they like?
Has anyone tried EBC green in their cars?
Thanks

they were 55's and they were the metalic hawks (the blue ones) which gave so much more bite and consistent power, but they do tend to wear discs faster than most.

Matt

I tried EBC green in my FF1600 and they last about two races at the most. They wear out too quickly. EBC said upgrade to yellow if I was to try again.

Thanks
Van Diemen say to run 44s in the Zetecs.
I have previously tried EBC green and they shagged the discs

We found the 44's to be too soft and faded. We went to the 55's because of this and they were good to start with but after one use they glazed so badly they were useless. The deglazing of them involved putting them into a vice and scrubbing with emery cloth or even a file, and even this was no guarantee that they would work properly.
The hawks dont need any deglazing which saves a lot of effort and time and worrying about them working come the race. They are a lot cheaper then the Pagids as well.

Works VDs run SBS I think...

Keefyboy
Luke Hines did Combe but the Zips were at Mallory?
Maybe he is going to do them all....

So it seems that the zetec route is more expensive then the kent alternative that settles the argument from a competitor point of view in my eyes, how about from a spectator point of view? Did anyone see the races at Castle Combe on the 6th May? Which race proved to be the more entertaining the kents or the zetecs?

Matt

a loaded question if ever I heard one.......
what about on home ground, ie. Brands?

The Kents as I suggested in my reports in both MN and Autosport! I did come and see you Matt during the morning but when I came over you weren't at your spot in the paddock and by the time it got to the afternoon I was a bit busy writing!

Mattray,

Mate, the Combe Kents were wicked and I really enjoyed watching the racing. All three of you drove your socks off. I gotta stick up for my fellow Zetec racers though because there's a couple of very good reasons why the the Zetecs weren't quite as entertaining last weekend:

1. We haven't got track knowledge (practice days at Combe are plops, big smelly ones). It was my first time on the circuit in qualifying and it ain't easy to learn it over ten laps
2. There were only three that were on the pace that weekend and one of those spun to the back of the grid at the start of the race

With this in mind I'm sure you'll agree that a good scrap in the Zetec race was never going to be on the cards. But if one of the quicker cars stayed on it would have been a similar story as yours. Three cars battling for first.

Ian,

Thanks for the support mate, that report was spot on. Di you actually watch the race? If you did you would have seen Chris Pennington take the race to Luke Hines and actually overtake, more than once too.

David and Goliath stories are great to read about shame you didn't pick up on it. I can understand though, the MG Midget race, sorry parade laps, were well entertaining and more than deserved the four paragraphs it eventually got .

I invite you all to come along to Brands and then attempt to ask the same question. I'm certain you won't be able to.

Keith

Keith

Yes, the MG Midget report did go on a bit - you'll have noticed that it was a bit briefer in Autosport. Quite simply, the deadline for MN on a Monday night is 6pm (not that long after the racing has finished!). Inevitably I have to write more on the earlier races (such as the Midgets) leaving only a couple of lines for the ones at the end, like the Zetec Formula Fords, otherwise we wouldn't meet the deadlines. With Autosport it isn't quite such a problem, as that has a later deadline. In Autosport I did note that Pennington and Hines traded places until Pennington's moment. The deadlines aren't ideal, but they do mean that we get MN on a Wednesday, so we should be grateful for that. Hope that explains the 'strange' allocation of words in the report!

Ian

Keith,
You were definitly up against it if you didnt know the circuit, it is a hard one to learn and I understand the points you were making.

What do you prefere driving Zetecs or Kents? By prefere I mean have more fun driving, or feel able to give it large?

Matt

Ian,

Thanks for the insight dude. Sorry for jumping the gun!

Matt,

Kents are fun. I could make a lot of mistakes in my old 95 Ray and still bounce back, just like you did at Combe in the 2nd race. In my eyes though Zetec has a different attraction and enjoyment. You can give it large if you like and have lots of fun just like a Kent but it's slow.

If I could afford it I'd do both! I'd drive a Kent for fun and use the Zetec for competition use. Why?

First of all I've enjoyed stepping into a new car. New suspension, new aerodynamics and a strong engine makes the money I've spent at it all worth while.

Secondly you can't make a mistake in a Zetec. Strange enjoyment but it's really helped me drive a consistent race mistake free. If you lose ground it's very tough to regain, especially when slipstreaming comes into effect (like at Snett).

Thirdly I can compete at the World Final aka the Formula Ford Festival this year. I know there's the King of the Kents Knockout but there isn't any works teams to upset. I want a crack at the big boys!

That's why I'm into Zetec Formula Ford and as much fun Kents are I won't be swapping championships... just yet.

Keith

What happened to the reports on Monoposto, you dont ever see anything hardly on it, and they have just as good racing and just as big grids. More seems to get written about southeren ff, and they arent really even a national club championship. Hardly fair really.

Probably because the race at Combe was about as exciting as watching paint dry, no offence like.

Southern FFord is visiting Brands, Snett, Combe, Donnington and Lydden. Sorry, we don't visit Knockhill but hat's pretty National if you ask me...

Keith

Fair dos but the Monos are generally well worth watching and do have consistently large grids

JR,

Large grids? You only need six quick drivers to make a race worth watching. Just because it has a grid of over twenty doesn't give it the right for extra editorial content. At Combe all I saw was parade laps with the best part of the race being the scrap for second place (featuring just three cars).

Keith

Spinner

I think you'll find that Mono gets just as fair a crack of the whip as any other championship. Taking the bank holidays out of it (see above), we'll generally give more space to the most entertaining races (because there's more to say!) unless there is a clear 'feature' race. Very occasionally there may be pressure to lead on a certain series, eg. Zip Formula having its own sidebar in MN at the Mallory meeting the other week, as MN support it. The race itself was pretty average...

Without checking back I can't be sure but I'm sure that I've given Mono a fair amount of space in the past.

The reason I asked Keith is that I feel the most important thing when racing is to enjoy yourself, and having raced Zetec I enjoy myself much more in kents! I know that I would probably have enjoyed myself more in zetecs had I had the time to test them but to justify the money spent doing that would be impossible!

Fair enough if you think you can get up their with the "big boys" good luck to you it wil be as hard as I am sure you know it is! I think I will stick with me kents until I find the money to do Zetec with plenty of testing and lots of racing so i can be one of the big boys!

Thanks Matt,

We know its going to be hard, it already is in the Southern series! But we'll be there or there abouts at the Festival.

If you do get into Zetecs make sure you get loads of test days sorted, that seems to be the way to find time...

Keith

Thats the reason I am sticking with Kents! Testing costs too much with tyres etc. this is the main reason that I have been campaighning for the Kents to be maintained and helped rather then the zetec cars bought into the regional championships purely on expense!

From Working with Zetec teams I know how much it takes to get fast in a zetec as I said before noone has ever got in a zetec and been fast without loads of testing! Ant Davidson and Button both did a year testing before doing TOCA because their management knew whats its like!