Marshall Respect rumours

Heard from a valuable source that for once a driver was heard saying that he respects the Marshal`s for there hard work and effort.

The driver concerned was new BTCC star Carl Breeze who is driving one of the pug 406 for team Halfords VLR.

My source was standing next to him in the canteen queue at Oulton during his race weekend in the Michelin Porsche Cup where he suffered terrible luck. She said that Breeze was applauding the hard work that the Marshal`s perform over the weekend and how they are often slagged off by certain drivers.

This kid seems like he has his feet firmly on the ground and after his domination last year in clinching the Formula Renault Championship, I hope he becomes a fan`s favourite in the BTCC! Haven`t felt this excited about a new BTCC driver since Jimmy Thompson hit our tracks. What do you think to this, will you be cheering for this new BTCC star?

It's always nice to get positive feedback from drivers - they are, after all, the reason we're there. Well that and doughnuts :)

I'm intrigued Arsenal - what's your relationship to Mr. Breeze? You certainly have been busy publicising him today :)

I was wondering whether Arsenal was on some sort of commission too...

I'm also wondering if Mr. Breeze at the ripe old age of 22 would appreciate being constantly referred to as "the kid" ;)

I must admitt Carl is a really nice guy!! one of the nicest drivers I know! xx

It would be interesting to find out how many drivers even realised we are on post !
They never ever seem to see the yellow flags, according to them....
I have had the pleasure of talking with drivers, and two years ago had a chat with a Mr O`neill, he had just planted his MGF in the copice gravel,all i can say in true Tim nice but dim stylie, " what a bloody nice bloke "

Originally posted by Arsenal

The driver concerned was new BTCC star Carl Breeze who is driving one of the pug 406 for team Halfords VLR.
will you be cheering for this new BTCC star?

Something must be wrong, a BTCC driving saying good words about marshalls. Probably not taken his unhappy pills that day. I don't marshal BTCC any more after Messers Harvey, Cleland and Warwicks comments about the marshal, plus there is too much standing on ceromany for Touring cars which I hate. I digress, Carl will now have a new fan in me.

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/Gif/homjump.gif

Originally posted by andrew_powell98


Something must be wrong, a BTCC driving saying good words about marshalls.


He's not the only one! Paul O'Neill came to the fire training session at Oulton on the Sunday morning. Maybe you'll have to start doing BTCC meetings again!:)

I stopped BTTC meeting s for similar reasons, plus the fact that as an obsrever I felt our integrity was being comprimised by the series coordinator.
Interesting coments re new drivers perhaps I will try and fit in another one soon.
By the way, drivers in Canada have to do 1 meeting on post to get their licence, perhaps the MSA should make it compusory, not just voluntary as it is at present.

It's compulsory to do a day on point here in Australia to get an upgrade to national license, too. Yet to have a driver spend time on a point with me who hasn't said one of: "wow, I didn't know you guys worked so hard", "Why is that not a yellow flag?", "You guys are crazy!" (typically said when on a point like Old Start/Finish at Sandown where cars get to within 2 feet of you and the Sports Sedans are out...) or "I'm really having a great time."

A good one i got was a Formula Vee driver who said "I have a greater appreciation of you guys". The day we get respect is the day we get payed to do this.

Paul O' Neill was sporting a Marshals club car sticker during his Oulton Race, which hw went on to win. He even said nice things about us on TV. Carl is a nice young man (I sound old there!!) and has been encouraged by some frindly marshals from his home town so he knows how hard we work. Id like to see both these guys do well.

I think that Mike Petch had a bit to do with that. He managed to get them on both egg astras although they had said they would only put them on the one.
do you think that we could get them on the williams and Mclaran at the GP??? (i dont think so but its worth a try

I had a couple of interesting conversations with rallyX drivers at the weekend.

When they retired they were retiring at the far end of my post in a nice off track safe area - however, they all insisted on coming and standing at post with me even though I told them they were safer where they were! (is this a driver thing or a guy thing? ;) )

The conversation that sticks most in my mind is one which went along the lines of "you know, don't think I'm not grateful you're here - I really am - but I have to ask this. Are you insane?"

:laugh:

Originally posted by Arsenal
Heard from a valuable source that for once a driver was heard saying that he respects the Marshal`s for there hard work and effort ..... new BTCC star Carl Breeze ... Breeze was applauding the hard work that the Marshal`s perform over the weekend and how they are often slagged off by certain drivers. HAH!

Actions speak louder than words and in my opinion Mr. Breeze's actions over the weekend just go to prove that his words are cheap.

What happened?

Carl Breeze spun off in the gravel beside me and got out of the car as I went over to assist. He ran right past me as I was calling "Excuse me, excuse me please, I need to speak with you - OI DRIVER, COME BACK HERE PLEASE!". He looked back at me and I politely gestured for him to return but then he noticed some of his mates on the other side of the fence and ignored me. Apparently the rescue crew chief managed to collar him for a little while, but after a few quick medical check questions he disappeared again. Despite several calls, he didn't come back.

His car had been left in gear and we had nobody to drive the car back in. It ended up being towed very slowly to paddock with a rescue crew member steering who then had to return to post before racing could continue. As you know, we had enough delays over the weekend without this wally adding to them.

I understand that the guy is only a rookie, but for goodness sake, has he got any cop on at all?

Doesnt matter if he's a rookie or BTCC champion. It only takes common manners to answer a marshall who is only trying to help you. I was on post with WW while he sodded off and left her and the rescue crew to move his car.

Well Graham Saunders was cool. I even had to tell him to stay in the car as we were going to give it a couple of tries to get him back on the black.

Ahh, but does Graham Saunders have a little friend doing PR type stuff on websites such as this one spreading false claims about how wonderful he is? No disrespect intended to either you or Graham Saunders, you understand, I'm glad that he was so nice to you and I'm sure that this would indicate that he is probably an all-round nice guy.

The point is that while I have come across ruder and less respectful drivers than Carl Breeze, Arsenal is obviously somebody willing to spread any kind of BS in order to promote this driver cum family member. And in this case, she has just been proved wrong.

Can you report him for this? I personally think he should be reprimanded/fined/endorsed/strung up for delaying an entire race meeting!

Originally posted by Chris Y
Can you report him for this? I personally think he should be reprimanded/fined/endorsed/strung up for delaying an entire race meeting!

The person/people I want to hang up are the ones that decided it was OK to send out the safety car half way through the RT2000 race to neutralise the race so that some of the TOCA people could drive their cars across the circuit so they could go home.

Oh, and they didn't actually wait for the end of the train. There were still cars catching up when they released them to cross the track.

Plus there was the car in for a pitstop who didn't know there was a safety car situation (a ridiculous safety car situation) and came out to meet with a load of trucks crossing the circuit in front of him.

Plus a few minutes later when the safety car was legitimately requested as there was a VERY dangerous situation - that safety car was denied.

Was that the muppet that went darting across the track and jumped up on the bank opposite the end of 12?

I saw him do that and we were wondering where the hell he'd come from - white race suit?

we got reprimanded for putting out a white flag when the med car was out during one of the SC sessions in the 2nd BTCC race - because we'd been told it wasn't necessary before the race - but the stupid thing was out in FRONT of two of the production cars - and it looked like any other car apart from the tiny green light on the top - which wasn't flashing anyway....

No - that must have been a DIFFERENT muppet :laugh:

The Carl Breeze muppet was wearing a black and yellow racesuit.

ah rite - so many muppets, so little time... :p

I never got a chance to talk to you yesterday evening - what was the deal with your fire?

Not big, just a little smouldering fire, only needed some foam - it was Carl Breeze's car!

I kinda wish now that I had used powder instead - miaowww :p .

LOL - well you'd have been doing it "by the book" now wouldn't you......

I'm just sorry that Arsenal will probably never read this as she only stuck around long enough to promote Carl Breeze.

Yeah, WW, and a damm good waste of some fine foam aswell :laugh:

I'm a bit new to this motorsport game (I'm driving in my first full season) and on my first race I noticed that as I pulled into the pits (last) all the Marshals were clapping me through, despite a nervous and probably somewhat hopeless drive and not at all in a patronising way.

It's actually only since discovering and reading this forum that I realised that you didn't actually get paid for it. Now, I knew a lot of Marshaling was voluntary, but I sort of assumed this was for classic rallying and the like and anyone marshaling at a circuit like Brands or Rockingham was bound to be on the payroll - how wrong I was, apparently...After reading the forum, I still don't know if that's a good or a bad thing, but I'll defer to your better judgement and say it should remain voluntary. (so where does my race entry fee go?)

Given that and the fact that you folks seem to get about as good a treatment as my particular championship from the organisers (i.e. camping in the outer paddock etc..etc..) I can only surmise that you must really, really love motorsport and for that alone you have my upmost respect.

I'll be about here anyway, but next time I'm out racing you're all welcome over to my Land Rover for a beer and a chat (can't quite budget for a keyring each yet;)

mmmm beeer :beer:

You at Anglesey next weekend by any chance Rich - cos if you are you're going to regret that statement! :)

Richy-Rich,

Those marshalls clapping you on was myself and wickedwitch. We were watching you race and thought you were brilliant - doesnt matter whether you came first or last - we thought you were brill.

We actually discussed clapping you when you came round - and we hoped you wouldnt take it in the wrong way. Im glad you enjoyed your race and hope to see you again next year ;)

I was stood on the outside of Paddock when Breeze dropped in to build sandcastles at the end of the sprint race. Poor lamb wasn't happy at all and was of no help at all to any of the marshals who he proceeded to stomp away from... what an utter ******.

Seems maybe I was stood near some of you lot at the time then!

The clown in the white suit might have been Muller ??

don't think so - muller came off round the back of Tarzan and this was later on in the day too....

Who was the mysterious man in white - the amazing bouncing driver....will we ever know.....?

:laugh:

Heh, I never regret giving away beer, it all comes back in one way or another.

Next time I'm out will be Mallory on the 14th July.

no no no - come to Anglesey - we need beer :beer: :)

What sort of beer?

beer that's paid for by someone else - DUH! :p

Originally posted by Craig Antill
Seems maybe I was stood near some of you lot at the time then!Yes, that was me and Shinners waving at you when Lorna and redshoes were visiting us. I hope you enjoyed yourself and I agree totally with your character analysis of Carl Breeze.

Richy, was that you in the Legend #11 then? Shinners and I thought you had done really well on Sunday and were disappointed with your placing but felt that you had been very unlucky and deserved acknowledgement for a race well driven. We didn't know who the driver was and, as Shinners mentioned, we were unsure as to how our applause would be taken - I'm glad you realised that it was genuine and took it in that spirit.

If your anything like me you dont know were everyone has finished so I just clap them all. If they finished then that cant be bad

Hmm, I dunno if that was me you're talking about. But never mind, I still think it's a nice thing to do.

Is this the clown we're talking about ? After this little performance he stomped off in a huff, leaving his car where it was and in gear!

http://www.yorkcityracing.com/images/galleries/photos/2002/rounds09_and_10/craig/breeze1.gif (http://www.yorkcityracing.com/images/galleries/photos/2002/rounds09_and_10/craig/breeze1.jpg) http://www.yorkcityracing.com/images/galleries/photos/2002/rounds09_and_10/craig/breeze2.gif (http://www.yorkcityracing.com/images/galleries/photos/2002/rounds09_and_10/craig/breeze2.jpg) http://www.yorkcityracing.com/images/galleries/photos/2002/rounds09_and_10/craig/breeze3.gif (http://www.yorkcityracing.com/images/galleries/photos/2002/rounds09_and_10/craig/breeze3.jpg) http://www.yorkcityracing.com/images/galleries/photos/2002/rounds09_and_10/craig/breeze4.gif (http://www.yorkcityracing.com/images/galleries/photos/2002/rounds09_and_10/craig/breeze4.jpg) http://www.yorkcityracing.com/images/galleries/photos/2002/rounds09_and_10/craig/breeze5.gif (http://www.yorkcityracing.com/images/galleries/photos/2002/rounds09_and_10/craig/breeze5.jpg) http://www.yorkcityracing.com/images/galleries/photos/2002/rounds09_and_10/craig/breeze6.gif (http://www.yorkcityracing.com/images/galleries/photos/2002/rounds09_and_10/craig/breeze6.jpg) http://www.yorkcityracing.com/images/galleries/photos/2002/rounds09_and_10/craig/breeze7.gif (http://www.yorkcityracing.com/images/galleries/photos/2002/rounds09_and_10/craig/breeze7.jpg) http://www.yorkcityracing.com/images/galleries/photos/2002/rounds09_and_10/craig/breeze8.gif (http://www.yorkcityracing.com/images/galleries/photos/2002/rounds09_and_10/craig/breeze8.jpg)

(Click thumbnail for larger image...)

What a ****!

PS Sorry for the number of photos; I just thought it would amuse you if they were posted on this topic.... especially the last one when someone finally catches up with the little prat :)

LOL - I hope the "****" was meant for the boyo in black and orange and not for our very own muppetrescue! :)

NICE pics Craig :)

Great pics Craig! :)

Oooh... do we know him, EP ? :) I was amazed at the amount of people who we knew at Mondello on the marshaling side... just like to say thanks for a great weekend guys!

Aah, thats the Muppet alright ! Great photos Craig :)

Well, I guess he is rescuing a muppet...

I meet carl when he was still a kart racer nice to here he has'nt changed his views of us marshals He always waved at the end of every race.A very nice man one in a million.
Next time you speak to him,tell him Stevie Murray said hi!..be safe..

Stevie, it's nice to hear that he can be nice and that you have seen his good side, but I have to say that he didn't wave to me as he abandoned his still-in-gear, gravel-bound car while I was asking him to return.

I must say i think you guys are a bit out of order calling Carl names when most of you hardly know him. Hes a really nice guy and has respect for marshalls, you must undrestand the guy has landed in the gravel, he has the famous red mist clouding him, the last thing hes going to do is be polite!!

I have experience of drivers with "red mist" and how they behave, however most do not abandon car while still in gear and ignore marshals calling them back and not return when this has obviously delayed proceedings as a person with other duties to perform must take time out to steer car while being towed. I think it's out of order for a relation to this driver (Arsenal) to come onto this forum announcing that the guy has such respect for marshals merely in a transparent effort to promote him.
If claims are going to be made & he doesn't live up to them then obviously there is going to be a backlash. IMO he set himself up for this and I (being one of the injured parties) need feel no guilt at all for saying exactly what I think.

BTW pitpopsie, I'm sorry if the above sounds a bit harsh - it's not directed at you but merely the cynical self-promotion effort. I guess I hate to see someone using a good forum for such cynical reasons.

oohhhh someones pants are in a knot! I KNOW him and am nothing to do with his promotion or anything like that I know him as a mate and Ive worked with him.

I never said that you were a part of his promotion - however I did say that Arsenal was & I stand by that statement.
I understand that his being a friend of yours makes you want to defend him and that's a good thing. You obviously have seen a side to him that he didn't display last Sunday and I realise that according to your recommendations and recommendations from others on this forum that he's probably a nice guy most of the time. But surely you can't condone his actions on this particular occasion.

I suppose he must have been having a bad day, please trust me though, hes a good person and im sure he didnt mean to be rude.

Understood pitpopsie :)

I promise next time I see him I will mention the above. he's not usually rude probably stressed. And no i'm not a relative either just someone who's followed his career the last few years, from his home town, and also a marshal.
Could we possibly consider this closed now, I think Carl has been bashed enough now for his mistake and I will mention it to him.

Good call! xx

Originally posted by pitpopsie
I must say i think you guys are a bit out of order calling Carl names when most of you hardly know him. Hes a really nice guy and has respect for marshalls, you must undrestand the guy has landed in the gravel, he has the famous red mist clouding him, the last thing hes going to do is be polite!!

pitpopsie, everyone is entitled to their opinion based on what they've experienced - if you want to set them straight based on your own experience then fine - but please don't a) give people grief for their opinions and b) excuse someone's bad behaviour based on "red mist".

The next question is nothing to do with Mr. Breeze, but is meant as a general observation and a genuine question - please take it as such.

If a marshal decided to have a "red mist" moment it would certainly not be excused, so why should it be excused for a driver?

Whilst what you say is very true, everyone does make mistakes. A few years back a very well known hillclimb driver had a 'red mist' moment when a pheasant ran out in front of his cars (although to be fair he still did what the marshal's on post told him too). Since then i got to know him much better and he is one of the nicest drivers i know as well as being one of the few drivers to say thank you to us peasants after an incident and at the end of the meeting. 'Red mist' isn't an excuse but bear in mind you might have caught a driver at a bad moment. Still there should be someway this could be brought to organisers attention so he can be disiplined for it, not that half the organisers would care.

Understood icklimp - and as I said, I'm not referring to this one specific incident but in general - I've recently heard "red mist" being used to excuse a number of things including some very dangerous driving.

Why is is that one driver who comes off in a race will hurl abuse at you, the spectators, the car etc. and storm off and never apologise - and another driver in the same race - who's been doing considerably better until they come off - is very nice about it. Surely if one can do it, the other can as well?

At what point do we stop excusing bad behaviour (of any kind - again, this is GENERAL not directed at any driver) because of "red mist". If you get a red mist in any other form of sport and break the rules as a result, you get penalised - why is motorsport different? Hell you can't even get away with it in real life. Drive up someone's backside as a result of roadrage and then try to play the "red mist" card in court and see how far it gets you.

The fact of the matter is that no matter how wound up someone is, there are certain rules of acceptable behaviour. Drivers have to adhere to them when they're not on the racetrack so how is it some of them are incapable of doing so when they're ON the racetrack?

i've been fortunate in that when i've had a problem with abusive drivers/muppets i've been able to talk to the clerk of the course who has in turn disiplined the driver and made it clear if it happens again they will be excluded from the meeting or following meetings, both times i've done this have been small club meetings. the problem is at the larger events when you have no immediate recourse to an authority figure who is in a position to do something about it, this is something we should try and address because at the end of the day your neck is on the line for whichever idiot decides he/she wants to shout and yell because they were unable to control their car. the trouble is how do you make the organiser's do something about it, any ideas?

EP, nice to see you! Well I sure got you going on that didnt I!

I dont like my FRIENDS being reffered to as: "what an utter ******"(Craig Antill) "Little Pratt" (craig Antill) and "****" (evilpumpkin).

you actually give marshals a bad name! No wonder drivers dont respect you when you talk about them in such ways!

I actually think EP is one of the best marshals around here.
Testify girl...

She's only telling it like it was. If the driver involved was being promoted as the marshal's friend then I think it only fair to mention an incident where his behaviour is the complete opposite to some of his PR.

pitpoopsie - attack the post, not the poster, always a good rule to follow on a forum. Especially since one of those you're attacking is the owner of the forum, you know, the guy that pays for this service.

I've got to say that I've only taken part in 4 races so far... Those being Pembrey, Cadwell Park and Oulton Park (this weekend Croix) in the Ginetta Championship and I have utter respect for the Marshals and the job they do- otherwise there wouldn't be any racing!! Hopefully will meet up with a few of you on here as we'll be at Croft and Anglesey soon. At the end of the day the Marshals have a tough job to do and there have been quite a few occasions when fellow competitors haven't concentrated on the flags being shown.

Plus overall they are working (for nothing) to ensure that the race meetings go ahead safely. I am looking to carry out a day of Marshalling to complement my licence signatures and to gain a bit of better insight into 'the other side' as it were. I think someone made a suggestion that Drivers should Marshal once a year - too right then they'd gain a better appreciation of what it means to Marshal, plus this would also boost the low numbers of Marshals that we seem to have at the moment.

I've only had one 'incident' (so far) where I came off the track, but luckily could restart it and carried on.. (at Oulton Park in Testing, a couple of Friday's ago... ) The session got 'Red Flagged' - so that the tyre wall which I 'kissed' could be checked.. Totally my own fault - pushing far too hard too early on..

EPS
:-)

if only there were more drivers like you, which club did you race at cadwell with? i think it should be mandatory for drivers to do one day's marshallling a year to get a license for next year but few of the drivers agree, they don't see why they should spend all day on the bank in the cold with no facilities and not even get paid for it.

It was the BARC. It was one of the events this year which was almost cancelled or was going to be possibly shortened... In the end it ran without hitch or problem and we had an excellent race - I even managed to overtake two people!! Although this might have had something to do with the hash I made of the start! The Tasmins were there as well and had an awful race start - the weather was very changeable... it was on the 26th of May

i've missed loads of meetings at cadwell this year and the weather is always changable, are you due back at cadwell this year?

Unfortunately not :-( great circuit - looking forward to going back next year. :-)

Next race is at Croix - what's the deal with Marshal's at this circuit? - still coming from the UK?

Then, Croft, Anglesey, Snetterton, Silverstone, Mallory Park and Thruxton.

Originally posted by pitpopsie
EP, nice to see you! Well I sure got you going on that didnt I!

I dont like my FRIENDS being reffered to as: "what an utter ******"(Craig Antill) "Little Pratt" (craig Antill) and "****" (evilpumpkin).

you actually give marshals a bad name! No wonder drivers dont respect you when you talk about them in such ways!

pitpopsie since you've never marshalled with me you have absolutely no idea what my skills may be or whether or not I give marshals a bad name and I find it very odd that you would make a reference like that with no basis of knowledge whatsoever. It's a very dangerous comment to make.

You certainly had no objection to me posting when I was posting in defence of you - but the second anyone says something you don't like you seem to feel the need to launch a personal attack. This is not a good way to get yourself taken seriously. If you are unable to conduct a discussion without making personal comments, you're never going to get your point across. Right now you have not changed my view of this driver based on what I've heard - merely confirmed that view based on his choice of "FRIENDS".

Incidentally, it would also help your "argument" and I use the term loosely, if you got your facts straight. I never referred to the driver in question as a "****" - I simply queried whether Craig intended that term for him. I DID refer to him as a "muppet" however. As far as I am aware, Craig is familiar with this driver and is therefore entitled to his opinion whether or not it co-incides with yours.

Originally posted by ginettag27
[BNext race is at Croix - what's the deal with Marshal's at this circuit? - still coming from the UK?

Then, Croft, Anglesey, Snetterton, Silverstone, Mallory Park and Thruxton. [/B]

As far as I know, clubs take their own marshals to Croix - Bemsee certainly does.

What are your dates for Oulton & Anglesey? We'll probably be marshalling at one or both of them.

I was posted with WW on the day this incident occured and I must admit he was rude to both my incident officer (WW) and to the Chief of our rescue crew and the crew in general.

As far as Im concerned he was downright ignorant on the day in question. Basic everyday good manners cost absolutely nothing.

Thanks Shinners for your comments.

Please note that the following post is not directed at you.

:)

OK - ENOUGH. I find myself agreeing with manicmarshal and pitpopsie in that this discussion should probably be closed as it has just turned into attacks on other posters and a rehashing of former comments.

Carl Breeze did what many other drivers have done before and what many other drivers will continue to do in the future. These actions are in my opinion disrespectful to marshals ONLY in their thoughtlessness and NOT in a deliberate attempt to be disrespectful. I admit that Carl Breeze did not deserve the amount of criticism that he got here (instigated ashamedly by me).

The only reason I bothered to single him out in this instance was because of the original thread post by Arsenal. I felt that Arsenal had used this forum in a "promote & run" exercise. My postings were meant as a response to Arsenal only but the whole thread now seems to have gotten out of hand. I wanted to point out the contradiction in what Arsenal had posted and in what I had witnessed. I think that this contradiction has now been well and truly pointed out.

Obviously, some forum members' feelings have been hurt in my little crusade and for that I apologise. It was not intended.

After reading all this I was wandering around the TOCA forums and found this thank you note in the TOCA radio threads......


FROM eaves for number 1
Senior Member

Registered: Mar 2001
Posts: 1101
I have to say many thanks to Alan for inviting me in on the interview with Carl Breeze on Sunday morning, let alone giving me the chance to ask him some of my own questions. I hope I didn't embarrass myself to much! It really was a fantastic opportunity to see what goes on behind the scenes.

Barbara, the lady representing Halfords, was also incredibly nice to me, and talked to me for a few minutes after the interview about the team and Halfords involvement with VLR.

However, this wasn't quite the best part of my weekend. The best part was half an hour before the feature race, when I was walking through the paddock, and someone came up behind me and said "Hi Matt, how are you doing?". When I turned round, i was shocked to see it was Carl Breeze, who must have had so much on his mind so close to the start of his 'real' debut race, and after what had happened in the sprint. He then chatted to me for a couple of minutes about what had happened to all three Halfords cars in race one, and what he hoped would happen in the feature. Some other drivers wouldn't have even remembered me, but to come and chat like that was reallly something.

What a great guy he is

Hmmmmmmm.....Dr j & Mr H me thinks!

Perhaps, as stated earlier, when he's highly focused and keyed into a race he's not the same thoughful person others see him to be when he's out and about in the paddock...never mind...I personally find all the drivers to be reasonable people, but even reasonable people under presure can be erratic ( like my dodgy spelling ), Presonally I don't like Muller because he's a sulky frog but hey, when I've taken his picture he's been nothing less than charming and helpfull....please don't beat me up again....no more posts in the I hate Muller thread - Rambo started it - Honest guv.