Costs of Racing

Good day, Gentlemen (and ladies)...

Being a long-standing spectator (sitting sometimes ;) ) I've often wondered just how much it costs to race the cars I see. I'm not talking about Tuscans or stuff like that, but proper club (historic) racing where you get your hands dirty and swear a lot.

It seems from those I've had contact with on the 'Net and off that there's a definite trend for racers to have jobs in the computer industry, usually at management level or above. Do you really need to have a 'big job' to race without losing your worldly possessions? Or does it just get you a bigger motorhome?

And does it, all things considered, cost more to race a historic than a modern car (parts, development, etc). Or conversely, because a modern car has had less time for development, does this make it a more difficult proposition?

Andrew Guy (http://www.tintinracing.com) - he he!, keep plugging it, keep plugging it - is a computy developer dude in London and he gave me some figures for racing his Talbot Sunbeam. To me, they were FIGURES (in capital letters, mind). Yet he races a small(ish) car in a small(ish) championship - now don't all you CSCC chappies start attacking.


Okay - I'll come clean. If I can hoard enough moolah and find a job (not necessarily in that order) I'd like to take to sprinting, hillclimbing or race in one of the Castle Combe series in 2001, with my brother. Nothing spectacular - just me, Andy, a Mini (possibly) or an old TVR (dream on...) and a back row grid position at every race. Oh, and the all-important grin (maniacal or not). I happy bunny I shall no doubt be.

Can anyone suggest a good way of starting the climb from watching to doing? Car, series, expenditure involved and so on...

I *may* be able to extract sponsorship from a couple of sources, but I'm not betting on it. Will most probably be me against the world.

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If I can get an idea about this, I can figure out now whether it's a dream that can't be fulfilled so I don't get me hopes up. It's improbable anyway, because I spend so damn much on film each season taking piccies of you lot! ;)

BTW: I live in England. In Dorset, so Combe nice and local and cool (and cheap, I presume).

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PS. How the hell do you afford those massive motorhomes? Sponsors? It's funny when a 36 footer with all the trimmings turns up towing a battered Mini.


Cheers,

A sad little wannabee

Hi Graham and Merry Christmas.

Not sure if you’re posting this in the right place but we can move it elsewhere if necessary. Also we may be just talking UK here so if David Patterson wants to join in I’d be more than happy to hear his views.

I’m not sure that you need to be a high roller in the computer industry, (although that would certainly give you a large amount of free time) to be an amateur racer. As you can tell from my website I certainly don’t work in the computer (ing?) industry.

You do need to have a good job that pays a reasonable wedge. When I raced Metros I was pretty quick and only failed to win the championship because of my job, which meant that I missed the last three rounds of the championship due to overseas travel. I finished second in class and fourth overall. So the job actually stopped me from achieving. Hey Ho. My sponsors had a good time though.

For guidance. To put a competitive car on to the CSCC Group 1 grid will set you back 15 to 30 K (Sterling) and even then you don’t know if you can beat the others because skill and talent come into the equation. However its definitely cheaper to run with the CSCC than (say) the NSCC, which is possibly the only viable alternative saloon car championship.

With the CSCC you can run as a team and a mini cooper (S?) would fit into the historic and post historic championships. The BARC is starting a championship for sports cars which will be based on the Group 1 regulations and will pass over to the stewardship of the CSCC once it is up and running.

As to starter championships, within the UK there are many choices. The 750 MC or the MG Car Club have many various championships of which the MG Car Club Metro and 750 MC Stock Hatch Championships are possibly the cheapest starter championships of them all. You have an affinity with Castle Combe, however it caters (very ably) for local championships and does not usually carry a round for the championships, which I have mentioned. If you want to progress beyond novice, I would not recommend a single circuit championship.

On th subject of TVRs. There is a Tuscan for sale in this week’s Autosprout for Pst 25K. Not bad value but if you bought it you’d spend another ten K just getting on to the track. (New engine, tyres, springs etc.).

If you ask Florian how much he and his team have spent on racing he would probably cry before revealing the total cost. He may have a sponsor but you still need to spend money before you get that support.

We’re lucky because we race at Spa Francorchamps and other great tracks so Brands Hatch and Castle Combe don’t have to feature so much in our racing lives. (Great tracks but awful organisation).

Don’t give up though. As long as people like us put themselves through purgatory to fund their racing, the circuits will stay open. If we don’t then we’ll be left with Touring Car (mostly “yawn” but good tv) and F1 (quite a lot of “yawn”).

Incidentally, I’m not sure about your reference to “Small Championships”. The Group 1 championship regularly fills grids which is more than can be said for the Tuscans, MGFs, Combe GTs etc.

Looking forward to seeing some replies from this.

Cheers ;)

Peter,

Thanks for replying, and merry xmas (again).

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WEBSITE
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If you ever need a spruce-up give me a shout. Would have to be in March, though - other sites to do first...

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CHAMPIONSHIP
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I think I'd be looking to run in a Castle Combe series to both keep travel costs down and to learn the racing art by driving the same track, thereby gradually honing skills and being able to try new things each time. Of course, I'm only guessing at this so anyone who runs a car at Combe might like to give me a few pointers....?

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CAR
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It's probably folly to suggest this, but I don't think it would be practical or wise to start with a ultra competitive car. The way I see it (at first anyway) is the slower you go, the more time you have to work on skills and the softer the inevitable impacts will be. After a time I'm sure it will be a constant quest for 'more speed, more speed' but to begin with I'm quite happy to sit at the back and watch what everyone else does.

Most likely car is one that is interesting (therefore NO GTis), does not have a boy-racer-esque body kit (no Fords), isn't ugly, handles quite well ... I need go no further than to say it would almost definately be a Mini. Love 'em, you see. Would probably be non-Coopered to keep initial cost down.

If we/ I did go the Mini route, I'm not sure whether I'd go with my heart with an old Mini, or go for reliability and possible greater ease with a newer Mini (say, a couple of years old). I suppose it would depend on what cropped-up and how it looked from a finance POV.

An old TVR might be very cool on track and satisfy our Blackpool allegiance, but there are few prepared racers and we've no experience of their mechanicals or even how they handle. I'm talking about a Vixen or Grantura - Andrew Guy advised me a while back that there are very few championships for M-series or Wedges (discounting the new Tasmins). I also think that race parts for such cars would be both rare and expensive, so therefore not an option at the moment (sigh).

However, having said that, I see in Motorsport this month there's a yellow race-prepared Vixen (HSCC-spec methinks) but it's far too expensive for my non-existent funds.

I could never bring myself to sit in an MG Metro - I'm of an age whereby I've seen (and known) the sad boy racers with blacked-out windows (etc) on the roads, so draw parallels. Metro isn't 'historic' enough for me either (unless a 6R4, but that's another story...). I like my chrome!

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COMBE
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An affinity with Combe? Probably. It's the nearest track to me, it provides excellent racing and is ideal for my photographic adventures. I don't like the biting cold, though - someone plant some trees, for God's sake.


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AUTOSPORT TUSCAN
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I've drooled over Tuscans (and T70s, M8Fs, Miuras, Lotus Cortinas, TGP machines, ...) for sale in Autosport or Motorsport for nigh on 7 years. The one you point to had not escaped my attention. ;)

But the chances of purchasing it (or any other Tuscan) are as remote as winning the lottery. Besides, I'd certainly not wish to race a TVR-engined Tuscan - I've been bred on the sound of a Rover V8! I'll go out of my way to hear one - trips to see my step-brother are ALWAYS punctuated by a quick blast in his wedge, with him driving sadly :(

It was excellent when Andrew introduced me to the blokes of RKP Racing (website coming soon) while they were running the engine of their Rover SDi. Grin Factor 10!!

There have been several Tuscans (RV8-powered) advertised in recent months, and all have been around £15,000. That's about £13,000 too much :) But who knows what I might afford if I find a job. Yeah... 'if'. Anyone got too much cash...? ;)


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FLORIAN AND HIS MINI
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I think it is the travel costs that bump up Florian's budget. He said to me in a recent mail that Blighty is a kind of hotspot for historic racing, so I suppose if he lived here he could race for less. Perhaps Brits are living in the past ;)

I don't want to live anywhere else if that's true!


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ZZZZZZZZZ
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I agree wholeheartedly with the statements about Tourers and Boremula 1 (or Boredom Factor 1) :D


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CSCC
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Your club seems quite good, but it is relatively small when considering the other saloon racing options that Andrew could have competed under BRSCC or BARC. On an exposure scale, it doesn't seem particular big - certainly, I'd never heard of the various CSCC races I saw at Combe until Andrew contacted me. Perhaps that's an indictment on me, but in my defence I've sampled a large array of series since 1992/3 at all sorts of levels. Perhaps it is the fact that you only returned to Combe this year after so long a gap that explains my ignorance ;)

Tuscans have qualifying races in order to fit all the cars in!

Thanks.

Oh Guys, it is the worst topic I never seen on 10 tenths :)

Hopefully for me, my dad is paying most of the budget of our racing season. My father and I are not involved in the real preparation (mechanic) of the car but our sponsor is our preparator for the moment but we have to pay entry fees, fuel, tyres, trips, hotels, insurance....
I can say that a FIA racing week-end in excellent condition is about 3 000 £ but for 2 drivers. Some of my friends in this serie spend the double (we don't have the same lorry). Unfortunately, this serie is expensive because if you want to be competitive you need to hava all the best parts for your car. I wouldn't say a word of the price of the car but it is not reasonnable for a Mini.
I have got some friends who are racing in France for 400£ the race and with a Mini at 4 000 £ so it is up to you and to the money you want to put in racing.
Cheers.

Graham,

Greetings from someone in exactly the same boat as you. I've got Lister-Jaguar dreams and a Reliant Robin budget.

End of last year, December, I think, Classic & Sportscar magazine ran a feature on Doug Rhodes, who prepped a fabulous looking Ford Anglia for the Goodwood meeting on a tiny budget. True the car was not the fastest on the grid, nor the most reliable, but it gave him the experience of racing in one of the premier meetings on the calendar - against club drivers and ex F1 stars.

Since the article, though, a note of caution. Last summer the car was rolled to oblivion in a Silverstone gravel trap. It's a bit like the stock market. You put everything into your investment, and there's no guarantee you'll get anything out.

I tend to agree with Peter on the circuits. If the car you wind up with is street-legal or better still light enough to be legitimately trailered by a road car, there is no reason why travelling costs throughout the southern half of England should be bad.

I met a man last year who carries his Lotus Elan on a trailer behind a regular saloon. No idea of his job or budget, but he has a young family who come with him to meets, so it can't be costing a kings ransom.

In short, years of following club historics about from Oulton to Brands has assured me it can be done. Now it's just a question of choosing an affordable car that does it for me. At the moment, I'm starting to swing towards a HSCC spec 70s Roadsport. That's anything from VW/Porsche 914 and Porsche 911, through Lancia Fulvias and Betas, and I even saw a Lotus Eclat racing last year. Good series. Be interesting to see what you eventually go for.

How about a TVR 1600M for starters?

Just remembered.

One of the fastest cars in the Pirelli Porsche Championship was made of bits from a trashed '77 911SC and a wrecked '83 Carrera. If your shell preparation is up to scratch, that's got to be a good budget way to start.

And before anyone squeaks, no I'm not advocating welding two halves together...

The mechanicals from the wrecked faster car went into the sound shell of the abused one.

Graham,
May I suggest another form of racing classic material ? Cheap, great fun, and CLOSE racing ;)

BANGER RACING! - go on, you know you want to!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Graham:


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CHAMPIONSHIP
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I think I'd be looking to run in a Castle Combe series to both keep travel costs down and to learn the racing art by driving the same track, thereby gradually honing skills and being able to try new things each time. Of course, I'm only guessing at this so anyone who runs a car at Combe might like to give me a few pointers....?[QUOTE]

You can always do that at other tracks. As I sid you cant progress beyond novice unless you race at more than one circuit.
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CAR
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It's probably folly to suggest this, but I don't think it would be practical or wise to start with a ultra competitive car. The way I see it (at first anyway) is the slower you go, the more time you have to work on skills and the softer the inevitable impacts will be. After a time I'm sure it will be a constant quest for 'more speed, more speed' but to begin with I'm quite happy to sit at the back and watch what everyone else does.

Most likely car is one that is interesting (therefore NO GTis), does not have a boy-racer-esque body kit (no Fords), isn't ugly, handles quite well ... I need go no further than to say it would almost definately be a Mini. Love 'em, you see. Would probably be non-Coopered to keep initial cost down.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It doesn't matter how old the original car is. If you want to race you will need to renew everything.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
I could never bring myself to sit in an MG Metro - I'm of an age whereby I've seen (and known) the sad boy racers with blacked-out windows (etc) on the roads, so draw parallels. Metro isn't 'historic' enough for me either (unless a 6R4, but that's another story...). I like my chrome!

It depends what you want to do. If you want to race you'll drive anything.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
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CSCC
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Your club seems quite good, but it is relatively small when considering the other saloon racing options that Andrew could have competed under BRSCC or BARC. On an exposure scale, it doesn't seem particular big - certainly, I'd never heard of the various CSCC races I saw at Combe until Andrew contacted me. Perhaps that's an indictment on me, but in my defence I've sampled a large array of series since 1992/3 at all sorts of levels. Perhaps it is the fact that you only returned to Combe this year after so long a gap that explains my ignorance ;)

Tuscans have qualifying races in order to fit all the cars in!

Thanks.[/b]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The CSCC Championships are administered by the BARC which is why we don't race at Combe very often. We also need to run qualification races at the more popular tracks. You are typical of the average Autosprout reader in that Marcus Pye and his merry men consider Fford, FVauxhall, Tuscans and other semi-professional championships as Club racing. Therefore Club racing never gets coverage. Doesn't stop us enjoying ourselves though.

Hope these "quote" things work. ;)



[This message has been edited by Peter Mallett (edited 26 December 1999).]

Florian,

How much does competition insurance cost in France?

Andrew Guy mentioned it's too expensive for him over here - is that what other British racers find?


Tim D,

My budget at the moment will not even stretch to a Robin.

I like Anglias but a bit ugly. Well... a lot ugly. That front grill and raked back window - yuk! But supposedly a fun little car to race. Like an A35 I suppose.

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http://www.british-motorsport.co.uk/photo/combe_02_10/paddock/anglia_red_blue.jpg
Ugleeee...
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http://www.british-motorsport.co.uk/photo/combe_02_10/paddock/mini_cooper.jpg
Oooooooooh. Aaaaaah. Eeeeeee. Mmmmmmmm.
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http://www.british-motorsport.co.uk/photo/combe_02_10/track/camaro_blue.jpg
I'd like to race this 'un...
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Judging by the prices quoted for Anglias in Autosport et al, you won't be seeing me in one anytime soon.

I think it would be road-legal - couldn't afford a trailer. Well, I could borrow my cousin's (he uses it to transport his classic tractor to shows) but it's a bit wonky, so wouldn't really trust it all the way to Donington or wherever. The only problem I foresee in driving me car to the track is the inevitable stuffing of said vehicle into the scenery by a cack-handed driver (me). Wonder if Andy's AA membership covers racing accidents... ;)

HSCC, huh? If you've 8K, there's a TVR Vixen for sale in Motorsport.

TVR 1600M? Well... being a Blackpool devotee, I've already looked at that for racing. Unfortunately, I don't see too many race-prepared Tivs - preparing one ourselves is a non-starter.

Perhaps I should persuade my step-brother to 'donate' his 350i ;) Should have the grunt if we fit a rollcage and other necessities... ooh, the noise! [bliss]. Unfortunately, I see the mixture of too much power, an undeveloped chassis, a leaden right-foot (just to hear the rumble) and the proximity of tyre barriers may *just* nip this idea in the bud :)

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http://www.british-motorsport.co.uk/photo/combe/pics/350i_white.jpg
[drool] - a Tiv like my brother's, and yes, I'm jealous.
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How about an old FFord? Anyone here race one? Come in Tony Harman...
http://www.british-motorsport.co.uk/photo/combe/pics/fford.jpg
This isn't Tony, but Richard Carter (thanks to Lee Purnell for telling me)

*** Does anyone here know about sprinting or hillclimbing and whether it's worth considering for a novice season? ***

Craig,

I couldn't stand smashing up the cars I love. To see Minis, Escorts, Jags and others being wrecked forever by silly people with tattoos is enough to make me cry (sort of).

How about lawnmower racing - got the mechanic (Andy) and parts (he mends mowers all day) already. I could get everything trade-price as well. He he! I think I'll investigate....

Other than that, there's offroad trials. Our orchard is now the home not only of three Morris Minors, a BMW 1000 motorcycle and a classic Fordson Major tractor, but also of a V8 Landie in need of LOTS of TLC. Cousin's bringing over a bloody knackered Porsche 944 (or something like that) next week - shall push it into the ditch! ;) I hate Porsches. And Ferraris.

Or there's karting, but that seems so childish. Autograss, autotests or even a few track days in brother's Tiv (yeah, right!). Or Andy's Mini... (erm, maybe not)


NB : if anyone is getting sick of me illustrating posts with piccies, kick me squarely and surely in the head (virtually).

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
I couldn't stand smashing up the cars I love. To see Minis, Escorts, Jags and others being wrecked forever by silly people with tattoos is enough to make me cry (sort of).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You'd not cry - the material is at the end of it's life anyway, and the banger track is a simple diversion from the road to the crusher. A hell of a way for old 2.8 Grannys and big Jags to go out!

Talking of karting... Watch the classifields forum later this evening... may have something to interest you... ;) And, no, it's not at all childish (unless you went in the cadet or junior classes!) - it's just a blinding day out with fellow petrol heads, and a good reason to go to the pub for a jolly on the way home!

Er Graham blokee.

Gonna move this to "Other Classes" because I think we've strayed from "Historics" here. Good pics though. Keep it up ;)

Peter lad,

Tracks : budget very low, Combe near. Combe also have selection of series for different car types - saloon, sports, single seat. Okay? ;)

Why can't you progress? Regulations, or is that just the perception of established drivers? Surely not elitism?

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Whatcha mean by 'renew' everything? I'm aware of the work needed to change road car into racing car. Anyway, I'd be looking for a prepared car, rather than doing this myself. Maybe when the old mechanical skills are up to it, I'd then look to upgrade the car and prepare it to my specs.

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If I want to race, I'll drive anything? Peter, you don't know me at all... For example, I was walking home from my aunt's house. I met someone I knew who offered me a lift. The car was a KA. I declined the lift... Principles and bias towards ****e cars rule my life ;)

I'd rather *not* race than turn up with a boring car (from every POV) that's more suited to carrying shopping. Therefore, I'll be looking for a *car* rather than a mobile swollen bruise.

Umm... when did I say Tuscans (or FFord or FVaux) were club racing? A budget of £70,000 for an 'arrive and drive' season is not exactly grassroots. I've watched REAL club racing for all my spectating life. And REAL club racing involves doing your own dirty work, sleeping in a tent and mortgaging your house to afford 'that new engine I've wanted'. I read Autosport and Motorsport regularly. Autosport I read from the back forwards, falling asleep when the eponymous characters "F" and "1" are mentioned. Motorsport is hardly more than a photo album nowadays, but then, it gives me the fix of historics I need.

Club racing never gets coverage? I remember Steve Higgs (you must know him...?) telling me that club racers are the worst people for promotion. They whinge that there's no coverage, yet do nothing to remedy it. Like race reports - Steve received an email from a Fulda Fiat racer bemoaning the fact that there were no reports of his series on The Grid. Steve politely asked him to send him some... silence. I hope, Peter, you are not like that...

In my opinion, club racing is the best form of motorsport. Therefore, there's nothing other than that on my site (with some Tuscans because... well, you know about that!). I'm showing the cars I love to watch, and all the photos (**** because I am also) are available for club racers to use free-of-charge. Plus I offer free websites to club racers, so I'm doing my bit for you lot. Plus I pay the entrance fees and keep Kodak in business (who sponsor quite a few blokeys) :)

Peter - you seem to have an affinity with the words "wrong", "end" and "stick".


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Craig,

Okay I was being silly.

Karting - maybe fun, but not quite my cup of tea. Of course, I'm talking about actually racing them for real, rather than challenging your mates to a race at the local indoor kart track (mentioned in mail, Craig).

I'd rather spend money keeping my arse away from the track surface, rather than moving it nearer. I'll have enough time to contemplate the qualities of tarmac when I'm barrel-rolling into Camp...

http://www.british-motorsport.co.uk/photo/combe_02_10/track/roll_2.jpg
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The Ghost of Christmas Future (for me)

hello Graham, go for it is all I have to say.
Be warned, the Castle Combe championships are ultra competitive. Just take my mare Rick for example.
He is a good driver, but as is the case for many I would think, his money is just not endless enough to compeate wiht the likes of Tim Hanlon and the like.
Formula Ford? I wouldn't even bother. Those guys have been developing their cars for years, even those at the back of the grid.

Sure Graham, but what better (or cheaper) way to pick up the basics ? You don't think that Senna, Schumacher, and all the others who started in karts did so for any other reason than the fact that they're an ideal medium to learn... There's no point spending a couple of grand and getting out on the circuit if you've not got a clue!

Go to http://www.ten-tenths.com/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000028.html if you're interested... ;)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
They whinge that there's no coverage, yet do nothing to remedy it. Like race reports - Steve received an email from a Fulda Fiat racer bemoaning the fact that there were no reports of his series on The Grid. Steve politely asked him to send him some... silence.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

haha!! That's the way of the world on the net i'm afraid, Graham. People see it as a one way medium - they think that people like you, me or Steve are providing a service such as the beeb, or Autosport are providing, and that it's a disgrace if we don't have everything to their liking...

Sadly, they are very rarely keen enough to actually get off their arse and do something to help us improve the situation... which, usually, we would be delighted to do!

Lee,

Yeah, the Combe series are all pretty well contested, but it's a convenient circuit (which I love) and for a while I'd be content just pootling around. Then if I'm half decent, maybe I'd do a series that takes in other circuits.

FFord : in which case I'd buy a developed machine for about £4000 (I wish). But then again, I've never been a fan of single-seaters. I'm a saloon and sports man(?) at heart.


Craig,

Oh dear, your Dad selling a kart is he? I'll have a look but I AIN'T RACING ONE :)

I need something I can (a) look at admiringly, (b) hear the engine without thinking there's a swarm of bees nearby and (c) dice with other interesting machines in a warm, dry cockpit.

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'Net ****box
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Yeah, I know.

I think Steve also meant that club racers were useless at promoting themselves in the 'real world' too, but I take your point.

At least all the blokeys I've had contact with concerning these website jobbies have been enthusiastic about the idea. I suppose if they weren't, they'd never have contacted me...

Insurance for an event is about 1,5% of the price you want for the car : for example if you want 10 000 £ for your car in case of accident you will pay 150 £ for the event insurance (this is for historic racing and a short race race : max 1 hour).
Go in historic Graham and fight against Peter.

I see. ONLY £595.

In my present (very) trim financial state, that's about ... ooh ... 100% too much ;)

However, I shall nudge a few peeps I know and maybe get some interest from them.

Florian,

Dunno about competition insurance in Blighty. Maybe Peter knows.

As for racing him, I'd be like the supreme general directing the battle - i.e. several miles behind the front line. Possibly limping, mad as a hare and suffering from syphilis (and that's just the car).

I suspect Peter would be the captain in the front line using his wits and tactical skill and experience to foreclose the day's skirmishes in his favour.

I would think anyone who dismisses Karts without even trying one doesn't realise just how fast or how much fun these things are, for about $7000nz i will have a Kart which will hit 135mph+ and will be within a second of the outright lap record (also held by a Kart)and not even the top bikes and 600hp trans-am cars will get close to that,i have tried Bikes,off road racing(in cars),dirt speedway(in a contact class),none of it is quite as intense or gives you the sensation of speed that a Kart does.

Graham, I am not sure but i would think that it is probally cheaper in the short run to buy a proven race car than to start from scratch, especially if you have limited race car preperation skills.
The race parts are so expensive and you will probally have to pay a pro to prep the car for you?
The Fiat racing challange is the exception there, have you been to their official site?
Well worth a visit.
Back to Combe, Paul Gardener. Close to the championship in class c, in a suzuki swift was selling his car for about 5 grand.

I knew you'd get more response in this forum. The regs state that if you compete at only one circuit you can't progress beyond novice. When you race you get a signature for every finish. If they're all from the same track you don't qualify for an upgrade.

My point about coverage comes from my years writing and promoting myself and championships. I bemoan the fact that our club championships are not covered in enough detail but if you run in a semi-professional championship you get all the coverage you want. Ergo. There is no national coverage for club racing.

If you look at Autosprout this week (Xmas edition) you will find the elitists promolgating the idea that club racing is not promotable and that we (club racers) shouldn't expect spectators at our events. We should pay all the costs in our entry fees and spectators should be allowed in for free. Make your own minds up about that one.

My point about preparation was that any car (even one thats prepared) should be totally rebuilt by you before being raced. You will then know a) it meets the regs, b) its safe and c) the engine/gearbox etc. have really just been rebuilt not advertised as such.

Back to publicity. The perception given by the mags is that TVRs, MGFs etc. ar club racing. I didn't think that you personally felt that way. ;)

Good point Peter.

Got to know your way around your car before you trust your life to it. No matter how sharp a prepared race car looks when you get your hands on it, until you've taken it apart, you'll never be sure you've removed all the gremlins.

Case in point. There is a car advertised in Autosport this month. Looks sharp. Very sharp. Really quite enticing.

But I saw the hard front-ender it got at Donington this year. It appears ready to race, but I for one would put a stress tester on just about everything in front of the bulkhead.

And no, to protect the vendor's blushes, I'm not going to snitch on which one it is.

One final thought - race tuition. I haven't looked into it, but is it not the case now that in order to even get an entry accepted for a race, you have to have a certificate from a recognised race school.

Safety first, but that's even more money gone west...

Graham,

This thread is entitled “The Cost of Racing”. In fairness I don’t think you’ve had a straight answer to the question but there is another view which is the VALUE of racing. But that is purely personal.

The Cost:

Homelife suffers. Families split up and the bank manager spends a lot of his time asking for his money back.

I know you don’t like Metros but here is what it cost me for virtually two seasons of racing.

Entry fees - £300.00 (Five events. All other fees paid by sponsor).
Car £2,500.00 (New brakes, rollcage, seat, harness etc.)
Engine £0.00 (Sponsor paid)
Tyres £200.00.
Overalls etc. £350.00.
Fuels and oils (say) £200.00)
Travel costs £0.00 (Paid by sponsor)

Sale of car at end of ’93 season £2250.00.

That is about a tenth of what it costs to race in the Group 1 Championship and yes I really do need a sponsor but the nature of my work precludes me from making long term plans.

Picking up on the insurance angle, I think you can see that it is just not good value. If you pay £10,000 for you car and another £200.00 for each event you can see that the insurance costs would make the cost of competing even more prohibitive.

“Pootling around”

Believe me you would never be happy to do that. Just “being there” is not what it’s about. It’s about competing so please don’t let anybody convince you that it’s different. I am lucky in that I race at one of the most famous and charismatic circuits in the world but if I were to be too slow you’d never get me out there.

Leading the Field:

As to being the captain and leading from the front. I refer you to my above comment. You need to practice and unfortunately my job means that quite often my first race is half way through the season. That means I’m half a season behind and not used to the car. So I tend to be playing catch up in a big way. Still things do change.

Kart Racing.

If nothing else you get a good grounding from this discipline. Don’t dismiss it because if you can’t control one of these you’ll never control a Tuscan.

Buying a proven car (Lee):

Have to repeat myself here and say that you still have to spend an awful lot of time and money to make sure its right in all departments.

Fiats (Lee):

Sorry I forgot about this one but Lee is right. It’s a competitive, fun championship.

Entry acceptance (Tim):

Actually Tim you can’t race without a licence and since ’94 the only way you can gain said licence is by attending an ARDS (Association of Racing Driver Schools) course. So, technically, you are right. ;)

The Fiat challenge would be about £3500 for the car, buy or build so it depends on your own preferences. That is just for the car mind, ontop is things like entrie fees etc.
They may not be the most sporty car, which seems to be a neccesity for Graham, but they can lap the same pace as a Porche 924!

God, where do I start?!

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Warwick,

Umm... how much? $7000 New Zealand dollars?

What is that in good old Sterling? Probably the equivalent of 7000k too much. That seems an awful lot of money for a small bit of metal with an engine stuck to it (joking!).

I'm just not a kart kind of bloke. I love cars - therefore I want to race one, or not at all.

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Lee,

I would probably need to employ a restoration company to cope with my regular stuffings ;)

Seriously though, yes I'd need someone to do rebuilds of engines, but my brother and I are sufficiently minded to deal with mechanical breakage/ replacements and possibly setup of the car. Anything we didn't know, I'm sure we'd pick up fairly quickly ... erm, maybe ...

Fiat challenge? What, Fulda? Went to their site about 6 months ago just before I launched my (first) site.

What is a Suzuki Swift? And is it ugly? (if it's a Suzuki, why do I bother asking that question?)

The car I race doesn't need to be very sporty. Overall, it needs to be interesting, not ugly and relatively inexpensive. Actually, I find it is usually the slowest cars that provide the best racing.

When I say interesting I mean it should not be bland and boring. A car with some character. I don't want to put another **** car on the tracks because I've spent 8 years puking when Hondas, Fiats, Toyotas et al pass by. I couldn't do that to fellow spectators...

I don't need to have a car that 'can lap as fast as a Porsche 924'. That seems like a boy racer boast. Now then, if I could race against (and hit) Porsches, I'd be in there like a shot! ;)


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Peter,

Ah yes, Andrew (Guy) said something about signatures (10?). Isn't that a bit silly, because novices wanting to race have to stump up a bigger budget when they're learning, if they want to get rid of the Devil's Mark. It seems to me (the ignoramus) that this isn't very conducive to getting more people into racing.


Promotion : so you're gonna write reports and articles for The Grid next season, then? ;)
And get your mug/ car featured in Clubman's Corner, a (possibly) free profile service for club racers to attract sponsors and increase public awareness. I don't think Steve (Higgs) has worked out all the details of that yet.


Autosprout(?!) : Must have missed that. Sure you're not twisting someone's words? Anyway, club racing is supremely promotable due to the fact that it is superior to most 'higher' formulae (Boremula 1 is less than nothing, of course), provides amazing racing with interesting cars, provides business to hundreds of development, preparation, parts and car companies, it's relatively cheap, has a friendly atmosphere in the paddock and (mostly) on the track, keeps the circuits in use between 'headline' events, is the breeding ground for new talent, is a useful r&d tool and is just ... cool. I love it :p


Preparation : at present, a total strip-down and rebuild is a bit beyond the capacity of Andy and I. It's know-how rather than tools and space that's the problem. Andy must have every tool ever made, and we've a workshop to use (if he shifts his Mini outside) but neither of us (especially me) has the knowledge of the finer points of car construction. We're okay with "how an engine works" and what various bits do, but not to the point where we'd find it easy to take stuff out and put it back again without having bits left over :)


TVRs : back to my favourite subject :) , the new Tasmin series will be 'club racing' to the letter. It's entirely geared to putting safe, fast cars onto the track for a reasonable amount and to race at an affordable level. Only a few mods are allowed by a couple specialist companies. I think you have to be a TVRCC member to compete, but don't quote me on that.

If anyone has £6500, consider racing a Tasmin and be safe in the knowledge of immense photographic and grinning/ waving/ cheering support by a silly fellow bedecked in Silverstone and TVR merchandise :D

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Tim D,

I take your point about safety. Very important. As I say above, we are not up to the job of a full rebuild. But Andy may be able to rebuild it with the help of the classic road/ racing car restorer who works across the road from him. That's a long-shot, but worth a try.

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Peter again,

Homelife : well, we live with our parents. I'm not going into details but suffice to say I have some carer responsibilities at home. Other than being around should I be required, Andy and I can work away to our heart's content in the workshop.

Bank manager : I don't intend borrowing money for racing. If I can't afford to race, I'll spectate, however disheartening that may be.

Costs : I think Andy and I might not commit to a full season at our first attempt; rather selected races nearer to home to keep costs down.

Martin Haven told me that two drivers cannot share a car and earn collective points. I presume that is to preclude wealthy drivers bringing a 'ringer' in to get some good results...?
As far as I understand, Andy and I could share a car yet our points (as if) would be separate in the championship. Is this correct, and are there any series that allow collective points from two drivers?

Pootling : I agree that I would be unsatisfied with a back row start, but I think that it would be safer and cheaper to aim low(ish) to begin with and keep my nose clean (not stuffing the car at the first race). Then I can learn at my own speed without trying to keep up with other cars, possibly overstretching either car or talent.

Napoleon : Okay then, compared to me you'd be the dashing captain ;)

Kart : I WANT TO RACE A CAR. I have no designs on Tuscans (yet) - the semi-professional drivers have a hard time controlling those beasts. I wouldn't mind (in about my fourth season or so) getting hold of an older Rover V8-powered Tuscan to race in Combe Special GTs or similar, but that depends on moolah (as always) and ability.

ARDS : Didn't Autosport or Motorsport run an article on ARDS last week/ month?

Please explain to us why it is so vital that you race a car which you like the look of...

What is the exact reason for wanting to go racing ? To get out there and compete, or to compete for the 'best looking car' award ? Maybe you should consider car shows or cruisin', if it's the latter ?

If you do seriously want to get out there and race but can't afford it, let's go back to thinking about racing on the ovals. There are other classes than bangers you know - and it'd be a hell of a lot cheaper than circuit racing.

How about join me, Invader & Sparky when we go on our planned winter excursion to an oval race ? (if we ever get it sorted!) There's no way you could call a Brisca F2 car a toy! (although maybe you could a Brisca F1 ;))

Where is it you live again ? Is it anywhere near Ringwood ? I'm sure my old mate Reg would be pleased to see us...

(sigh)

The aesthetic qualities of cars is a subject close to my heart (you must know this by now). The world's roads and tracks seem to become ever-more ugly places, so I wish not to add to this by racing a (in my opinion) dog's dinner of a car.


EXACT REASON FOR RACING :

1) To partake in the entertainment of racing that I've enjoyed from the wrong side of the fence for 8 years.

2) To revel in the competition between like-minded petrolheads, make some friends, expand my knowledge of both the racing art and the mechanical side of things and to provide the same enjoyment for others that I have felt myself.

3) To have something to share with Andy as brothers; something we can do together and possibly involve nephews when older.

4) To find a release for energy stifled from looking after my father, and to get a break from the strain involved.


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Craig, you do me no justice when you propose it is "the best-looking car" I want, and that I should perhaps go 'cruisin'. Nothing is more abhorrent to me; indeed, there is no human lower than the attention-seeking imbecile called 'boy racer'. Thankfully I never see those ****e Fords with "MOTORSPORT" emblazoned down their tacky sides at meetings.

If the funds can be found, I wish to RACE. But I wish to race REALISTICALLY and not bite off more than I can chew. To be overly optimistic might ruin my enjoyment and possibly disuade me from continuing.

I wish very much to race on circuits (I just do), but in the coming year I'll have a look at other types of racing - what I really want is some advice from a hillclimber or sprinter, which seems eminently more suitable for a novice with no talent to mess around in first.

Various members of the TVR Car Club bang on about their sprinting, but (a) I don't have a TVR, sadly, and (b) they seem to have unlimited funds as you might expect.

I do (or did) have a couple of friends who raced Escorts in Autograss, which seems quite accessible, but if I can obtain sponsorship moolah I feel certain that they'd want more exposure on proper circuits. I'll have to investigate further next year.

What the arse is a Brisca F2?

As you well know by now, I'm a Dorset blokey. North Dorset. Near Yeovil. Nowhere near Ringwood.

Of course aesthetics matter.

If I was a competitor, I would race a goodlooking car.

If everyone was satisfied with running an ugly machine, we would all still be supporting the Renault 5TS championship.

But we aren't, and designers in their infinite wisdom have given us shapes we can fall in love with, from a Porsche 917 to (ulp!) even a Mini Cooper.

Graham, as if to negate everything I just said, didn't I read in another posting that you had a couple of Moggie Minors knocking about? If so, they're eligible for Classic Saloons, and you could learn your preparation skills on those.

But I'll admit that they aren't the most svelte of shapes ever to hit the tracks.

I'm afraid you're living in a dream world there, Graham!

You want to race, but you're doing it mainly to entertain, to meet fellow drivers and to have a good time, and to have a bit of fun working on the car.

Coupled with the fact that you have almost £100 to spend, you're looking in the wrong place. Circuit racing is not for you.

Short oval racing (doesn't have to Brisca, but that is big in your part of the world with Bristol, Taunton & Ringwood within easy driving distance) is one major area you need to look at. Basic classes include Brisca (the traditional stock car), saloon stox, stock rods (non contact), hot rods & national hot rods (built to standards which will put the vast, vast majority of circuit cars to shame! However costing big bucks...)

BTW, this is a Brisca F2 car - no one could say it don't look like a race car - there's no doubt what it is!

http://members2.clubphoto.com/dave87765/brumf2_BriSCA_F2_-_Birmingham_-_2310/icon2.jpg

This is a white top - in other words, a novice. To enhance the enjoyment of the driver and the spectator they start at the front of the field with yellows, blues, reds, etc behind. Champions & superstars start at the back of the field (and often still win!)

Come on you old tart, get yourself out to an oval and meet some of these 'real clubbies' you keep harping on about - you know, the man in the street.

Graham, I know where you're coming from. Your resources and preferences sound very similar to mine, so i hope I can give you helpful advice rather than tell you you're wrong about everything. Rest assured being competitive is fun and winning is more fun than coming last, but coming last is heaps and haeps more fun than watching, believe me i know. If you don't like sports cars/open wheelers or karts or speedway/ovals, don't be pushed into it. You'll enjoy your racing a lot more if you race a car you like. when you're on a very tight budget, like mine, travel can kill you. stick to your local track and save plenty of $$$. Definitely get a 4 cylinder car, bigger, heavier cars with powerful engines cost a lot more to race, this is a fact. Minis are fast cheap and fun, they're cool too, so you should definitely consider one, or what about an early Cortina or RWD Escort? Classic Saloons are a great class for people on a budget. Here in Australia I race in historic Touring Cars, (very similar to Classic Saloons), my Datsun cost me just $5000 to buy and prepare for my first race, that's about GBP2000. A season of racing, six meetings with 3 or 4 short races per meeting, 2 or 3 practice/test days, regular maintenace and licence/registration etc. costs me just $4200 (GBP1680). Hey I never win races but because the car is nearly standard, it's very reliable and consistency pays, I won last year's club championship, primarily because i never DNF'd. If money is very tight and you have no experience I would strongly recommend a season or two of hillclimbs and sprints before your first race. That's what i did and it costs about a quarter of what it costs to go circuit racing. Also, my car is street registered and i drive it to the circuit, this saves me a fortune on tow cars and trailers.

Hi Graham old (?) chap,

You make some startling points that suggest that you don’t really have the commitment for racing. I’m sure that’s not the case but to illustrate my point I’d like to relate my experiences.

When I was but a lad I had the go faster 1500cc Anglia. Thought I was the fastest thing on four wheels. I took the Silverstone racing driver’s course and as often as funds would allow took part in some FFord races. (School cars of course).

Money soon dried up and I decided that I should go out and work for a living. All of which meant that my dreams of track stardom came to nought. I have always been a MG fan and when I bought my current MGB in 1985 I met a man by the name of Barry Sidery-Smith. He, it transpired, was and still is the Chairman of the MG Car Club MGB C V8 Championship. He knew of my interest and indeed my photographic skills so invited me along to “Oily rag” for him. This got me track passes so I also took piccies and sold them to the drivers. My ambition was to build a road-going Modified MGB for Class B of the championship. The cost of this was at the time prohibitive.

As a MG Car Club member I got to meet loads of enthusiasts and one of them (Steve Hall) was developing a championship for MG Metros. (I know, not your or indeed, my favourite car). However I gave you the costs for starting in that championship and because I was as good as some and better than most, I attracted some sponsorship.

I always liked the Group 1 Touring Cars and when I discovered the CSCC upon my return from Vietnam in 1994, I considered building and running a Dolomite Sprint. (Just like my hero Gerry Marsh). However the Taxman got involved and I settled for a Capri. I like Fords but the Capri was not my first choice of car. I rebuilt the beast and raced it at Brands Hatch. I finished fifth in class and so decided that with time I could develop the car. The red Capri is my second because the first took to the public enclosure at Cadwell Park in 95.

So I guess what I’m trying to illustrate here, is that we always need to compromise if we want to do something badly enough.

Now lets review your recent answers. (You post 28/12 @ 22:00)

NZ$7000.00 is approx. £3500.00. So you could probably build a (previously developed) car for that, including the purchase cost. Lee’s point about a Fiat would appear to fit this bill.

A Suzuki Swift was the car to beat in the early 90’s Group N Saloon Car Championship. It’s obviously not a bad car.
It used to be 11 signatures and no, it’s not silly. Even if you have upgraded you still need to visit the Clerk of the Course upon your first visit to a circuit. I had to at Combe in October. The point is that just learning one circuit means that you don’t get a good idea of changing surfaces or varying types of corner. I think the minimum is four circuits but I need to check this.

Promotion? I already write articles for my local newspapers and my progress reports also go to Autosport/Motoring News/Classic Cars etc. Unfortunately these publications are like you in that they much prefer to write about the expensive (attractive cars) end of the market if at all. When I was PR co-ordinator for the CSCC we appeared on TV twice. So I think I know enough about promotability.

Take a look at Club Autosport and tell me how much of it is devoted to “real club racing”. Don’t think you’ll find much about 750mc, CSCC, MGCC or any of the others. You will find a lot about Palmer Audi and Tuscans and the like. That’s my point. The average punter doesn’t know what club racing is because nobody gives them any info. Ergo they’re not likely to surf the net looking for something they don’t know exists. Its as promotable as the big mags want it to be. You see club racers don’t pay for their promotion unlike the bigger semi-pro championships.

You must never consider entering a race without being as certain as possible that the car meets all the technical and safety requirements. That’s preparation.

Your general points in reply to me:

Homelife. I was thinking more about divorces etc. All very tacky.
Bank manager. You will certainly be the proud owner of an overdraught if you want to compete. Don’t worry though it tends to go away as you get older and earn more money.

You can enter a car as a team and each earns individual points. You also earn points as a team for the team prize. The CSCC championships run this system but I’m not sure who else does.

I didn’t say you wanted to race Tuscans. I meant this as an example. ;)

Your response to Craig’s “Aesthetics” question (28/12 22:57) is an example of my point about commitment. In this world nobody cares what you race as long as a) you are competitive and b) you don’t get in the way if you’re not. If the chance presents itself I would go for it. That’s commitment.

The remainder of your response is (forgive me) naïve and romantic. I race because I want to, not because I want to please a crowd.

Personally (I know David P says differently) I would not recommend hill climbing as a starting point because even if you are competitive you would still need to take an ARDS course and start all over again before you were allowed on a circuit. Those are the MSA rules.

TimD makes a good point. I would love to race an Aston Martin DB5 but I can’t afford a wheel let alone a £60K engine! There is an A60 for sale, which is prepared for the Classic Saloon Championship. An Interesting and pretty damn competitive car £3500.00. Otherwise look at those Moggies and call me because I can put you in touch with a real Moggie enthusiast.

I don’t know enough about short circuit to comment but you need to be really very aggressive even as a novice. Is that you?

Responding to David P. It may be that the Oz regs are different to the MSA. In which case you can progress without travelling to other circuits. Not so here I’m afraid. As to sticking to Combe and racing an Historic/Classic. Do they run such championships there? If not I fear you are already looking at a bigger budget for more recent machinery.

I don’t mean to be hard-nosed with my reply but I do think you need to understand what it’s about. It’s about getting out there (wherever) and racing. You don’t know what the outside of a car looks like when you’re in it so why worry? The chances are that the spectator (s?) won’t be looking at you anyway (unless you’re winning). ;)

Oh and on the subject of Ford. They have done more for all aspects of Motorsport in this country than any other motor manufacturer. Also, it’s probably because they provide parts in abundance and relatively cheaply that we can race them as well as modify them a la “boy racer”.

This post is taking over all my time :)

Anyway, let's start replying...

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Tim D
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Whatever anyone says, I'm not going to race an ugly car. I despise ugly cars on the road, so I'm definately not going to throw down my principles very easily.

Yes, I want to race (badly, in both senses) so if an ugly car is available I shall wait and save my money for something more suitable. That's just common sense ( my common sense!).

Moggies are cool little cars, are I think were quite innovative for their time. Issigonis designed it, didn't he? A what was that other car he designed... ;)

We have three knackered Moggies in the orchard, rusting away slowly. They are technically owned by my cousin but he's not bothered about them so I expect should we want to, he'd give us what we want. However, my brother bought and restored Berol, my sister's white Moggy, about 5-6 years ago to near concours condition (has original leather seats) and it's stayed in the shed ever since - never driven. I'm not sure whether Andy would want Berol to do any active service, but then I'm quite persuasive :) The more I think about it, the better it sounds...

Not svelte, but not bad-looking.


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Craig
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You again! Harping on about ovals... ;) :D

Okay, I'll try next year to pop down to Honiton and watch some oval racing. I can see bangers when I like up on Warden Hill, but I've seen that loads of times.

Reasons for racing : surely those are some good reasons, nonetheless...? People go on about motorsport becoming too commercialised - would you rather I was in it to make money (not that it's easy)? Everyone can have his or her reason for racing, so why can't I race for pleasure and to give some enjoyment back such as that I've had over the years?

Where did I say I had £100? If you read my first post, you'll notice that I'm talking about racing ONLY if I find a job and can afford it. Andy would be putting some money in, and I hope to persuade some relative's businesses to sponsor us as well - quite probable, in fact. I would imagine that, all things considered, I would have around 5 or 6 grand to play with - that is purchase of a car and preparation for the first race. After that it may or may not be a case of racing when the money is available. Realistically, I would aim to attend half of the races in a season.

Do you want me to race ovals because you like that and you know I'd give you free tickets?? :D


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David
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I agree with all you say, but wonder if there are regulatory and economic differences between USA(?) and Blighty. For instance, Peter has pointed out the factor of race signatures - is this the same over there? Plus I presume that, with a larger racing population, you may have more racing cars for sale with consequently lower price tags. What about running costs and entry fees?


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Peter
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I make some startling points, do I? Well I aim to provide enough fuel for you... ;)

I think you would find me a terribly committed racing bloke - in fact, I think once started I may not be able to stop. I just have a different outlook, different experience and more complicated reasons for taking to the track.

I'm capable of compromising in certain areas, but not so in others. I'm not stupid; I just want to do something I'll enjoy as much my way as possible. If I come a cropper, I'll expect you to dispense the righteous verbal kicking.

Headstrong I certainly am, which obviously increases my determination and resolve to see things through once started. I'm not rushing into this, am I? If I was, I'd probably be talking about racing next year which is just dumb.


Suzuki Swift : but WHAT does it look like, and how does it sound? It's not that smallish, characterless blandmobile usually decked in white and blue? Or that nasty **** with four small round headlights?


I have a choice : either jump in and buy a car I'd be embarrassed to turn up with, or wait, save some money and buy a car I really like, with better bits. If that's stupid, my respect for racing drivers has just gone down.


Okay, I understand about the signatures now.


Promotion : umm... I wasn't attacking you or anything. I was just asking whether you'd be helping Steve promote club racing next season.


WILL YOU STOP SAYING I PREFER TO TALK ABOUT THE EXPENSIVE CARS!!!


Autosport : about 30% of the Clubsport section, I'd say, is true club racing. There are so many series in Britain that to talk about every little championship, however great, would bump up the price of the mag far beyond that which peeps would pay. Autosport has to balance between the 'headline' series like Boremula 1, Snoring Cars, F3000 and GT and National/ Club championships enjoyed by fewer numbers.

Why it is enjoyed by fewer numbers is hard to say : perhaps it is a combination of factors such as a large difference in numbers between active spectators, armchair enthusiasts and 'spectacle' worshippers; then you have the catch 22 situation of smaller series having no TV coverage, so peeps remain unaware, so the TV companies don't need to show them; then there *may* be a general apathetic response from club racers to aggressive promotion; then you have manufacturer involvement, whereby it doesn't pay to sponsor or support series known to few of the public, probably due to reasons above; perhaps it is also an inherrent human characteristic to search for luxury or the exotic - the cars that they see every day may not appeal to a larger audience, so it is only the enthusiasts that spectate and support.

I'm guessing here, of course, because I'm not involved at the sharp end.

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Homelife : I'm not married, nor is Andy. No probs.


Moolah : I believe that I may be able to cover the cost of purchase, preparation and repairs for, say, 8 races depending on car, championship and travel. I would only borrow if it was an ABSOLUTELY LIFE AND DEATH requirement.


Points : Sounds good.


Aesthetics : I care! After all, who's bloody racing the damn thing?


I shan't get in the way. I'll have probably have met the tyre wall by the first corner.


Race reasons : I thought racing because I wanted to, would go without saying.


Hillclimb/ Sprinting : I presume that in America it is a different set of rules and stuff. Plus, I expect there's far more hillclimbs and tracks because they have room and money.

I wouldn't mind having a go at sprinting though. It seems a good way of learning car control, if nothing else.


Moggie enthusiast : what? That bloke with the beard who was racing at Combe? I've seen him at races quite a few times. Speaking of Moggies, there's a renowned Moggy restorer/ seller or new 'uns in Martock about 15 miles away. Went there a couple of times to buy bits for Andy. I think they race a couple of Moggies, but in what championship I don't know. It may be banger racing, for all I know.


Aggressive in what way? Physically, I'm not aggressive. Quite the opposite in fact. Mentally, I'm more determined than aggressive. I'll do what I want to do, but I'm not going to **** on someone else to do it.


Spectators : obviously you spend too much time in your car, rather than with spectators. Personally (and from my experience of others), spectators are just as interested in the bloke a couple of laps behind as the one streaking away into the sunset. For example, most of my photos show those in the back half of the grid.


Ford : maybe, but they still make butt-ugly cars so they are to be despised... :) There is no need to release a car that looks so utterly ***

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
You again! Harping on about ovals...

Okay, I'll try next year to pop down to Honiton and watch some oval racing. I can see bangers when I like up on Warden Hill, but I've seen that loads of times.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't Wardon Hill one of those dodgy dirt tracks ? Hardly the same! Let us know when you're going down to Honiton - not been there yet, so could be fun :)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Do you want me to race ovals because you like that and you know I'd give you free tickets??
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Hardly! I do love the ovals but, for one reason or another, i've not been for several years. Free tickets ? You've obviously never been! You only have to know the person on the gate and you're in for free anyway! Or you can just circumnavigate the security altogether... :)

No. I just think, from the arguments you are putting forward, that it really would be the way to go... especially your desire to entertain the public.

The guys on the ovals are the most friendly racers out there, and it'd be an ideal way to get into the sport. Ask the Warwick family...

Or the McKellar family... ;)

Or the McKellar family... ;)

What the hell happened there?

Anyway, I'll think about it - got any moolah statistics for ovals?

Most importantly, can I race a Mini? ;)

Or, my favourites... Barry Lee or Robbie Collard (a true privateer who came very close to winning the Vectra Challenge and getting a ride in BTCC 2000...)

You can race a mini... as long as you're under 16 ;) Mini-stox they're called... Seriously, yes, I do think i've seen minis in the (I may be wrong here) stock rod class. ie non-contact

As far as readies goes, you'd be best off chatting to one of the guys who race. Take a look at http://www.ten-tenths.com/links/Sport/Stock_Car/Short_Circuit/ for links...

I've just checked...

Mini's can be raced in 1300cc Stock Cars - this was, a couple of years ago when I last went anyway, the best looking class as far as fun and competition goes... Looked great fun, and a 50th of the price of running a big stocker such as a Brisca F1/F2 or Spedeworth Super Stox...

Okay, I'll admit it - it does sound interesting. But if I can afford to race on circuits, that's what I'll do.

If not, it looks like I'm off to the ovals...

Graham and Peter, yes there are a few differences in regs between Australia and UK. In Aus it's a piece of cake to get into sprints/hillclimbing, you join a club, pay a small fee, fill out a form and you get a licence. It's much easier than getting into circuit racing. In Aus we only require 5 signatures in a year to get a licence upgrade. In Sydney and Melbourne, there are several circuits to choose from, but in some states there is only one circuit for 1000km, so in those states you can get all your signatures from one circuit.
Graham, if you're only interested in being a clubbie and racing just for the fun of it, you don't need to worry about upgrades. the first step i suppose is joining a club, so find some that appeal to you, go along to a few meeting nights and find out if they're what you're looking for. If at all possible go for circuit racing not speedway/bangers/ovals. I suggest Peter's CSCC is worth a good look, i still suggest a Mini or early Cortina or RWD Escort. You're right new Fords are butt ugly, but Mk I & II Escorts and Cortinas look just fine.

Blimey Graham you certainly got this discussion going, and got tons of advice into the bargain. Well here my ten pennies worth, (bang goes the racing budget again)
"What does racing cost" ? TIME and Money, well from what you say you've got time (but you'd be surprised how much you need). Money, well you've seen you can pick up prepared cars from £3k - £4k but you would have to be prepared to do some work on them, (I agree that you are better off buying your first racer ready prepared, you are going to have enough to learn as it is), are you mechanically competant ?, you don't have to be the worlds best race prep artist just careful and have some common sense and a thorough approach. If you love Mini's and want to race one then do just that, I think if you choose something just because it might be a bit cheaper then you will never be really happy with it and won't give it your best. There are a number of places you can run Mini's, a friend of mine is doing the Mighty Mini's championship and having good fun at a reasonable cost. Mini's are still probably the cheapest car to make competitive.
It does cost a lot to win, rebuilding engines, using pro set up companies, the best of everything, BUT you can do it all yourself and still not come last by a long way.
Here are some finance ideas;
Purchase of car - £3-5k
Prep of car for 1st season £1k (to include the bits you didn't notice were broken when you bought it)
Trailer £500 (You NEED a trailer, driving the car to the meeting is OK but how do you get home when you've stuffed it at the first corner ?)
One offs; ARDS course - I'm not sure of the cost of this, probably around £350
Clothing/Helmet etc; usual advice - get the best you can, around £600-700 total.
Club memberships - could total £150
Running costs - basically a penny more than you've got. Look at approx £130 per meeting entry fee, tow car and race fuel (Dorset to Combe return maybe a tankful ?) these are probably your biggest individual costs per meeting. I reckon if you are doing a club saloon championship most things on the car should last about a season, it really depends on how highly tuned it is and how stressed the parts are, (and the driver) Overall I would guess your other costs "could" be kept below £1k for a season.
Last season I spent approx £3k (I get a company car so no fuel costs) in 8 races including a gearbox rebuild (Hewland so a bit pricey). My current mount is a Classic Formula Ford, (miles cheaper than the HSCC Historic FF, knock a zero off the price), before that I did Clubmans B Spec with the 750 M/C, (a very good club, their Stock Hatch class is v.cheap). Before any of that I started off in in Minicross and then Rallycross (in a Mini !) because I couldn't afford the circuit racing. Before I could afford any of that I spannered for somebody else that could.
Sponsorship - got some - great.... but don't rely on it, make sure you can afford it yourself first, the sponsorship money can be used for all those go-faster bits and driving lessons you will realise you need after the first meeting.
If you fancy having a go then do it, whatever it takes.
If you're still not sure then come over and spend an evening helping me prep the car, or come along and spanner for me at a meeting. (We're not at Combe until Oct though)

You were quite right that wasn't my FF in the piccy - far too modern. If you can tell me how to post one I'll do it (sometime).
See you on the black stuff TH