TONY C: Give it another tug son..

Tony Cockhead, oh Cochrane has come up with another classic Tonyism...

It seems as though he's decided on next years calendar, without consulting anyone...

1stly he wants to go back to the October long weekend, which is fair enough i guess. The problem is that is the same weekend of the NRL/AFL grand finals, thus attendances would be down.

2ndly, in his infinte wisdom he has decided to set a date THE SAME DAY AS THE GOLD COAST INDY!!! But wait for it, it gets better...He then sent a request to Bobby Rahal for Cart to move their date!!!

from AA:
"Bobby's initial reaction is why don't you guys just move, (your date) which is fair enough, if i was in Bobby's position i would ask the same thing. It is a little hard for American's to get their head around the fact that we are a bigger championship in this country."


!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-Ah, doesn't the Gold Coast Indy get over 200,000 people, making it bigger than any SCS event, by a good 150,000??
-Ah doesn't channel 10 broadcast the event, if given a choice, Indy would always get priority.
-Ah, who's going to race with you Tony? People like to watch support classes you know, and most of the good ones are scared of the Gold Coast concrete...
-Ah, this isn't super touring that you are trying to **** off Tony, Cart is a million times what V8s are or will ever be.

I think it is time Cochrane sat up and smelt the coffee. If only Cams could step in and do something, but we now all know that Cochrane is the boss of motorsport in the Southern Hemisphere now....I just hope Cams sue the pants off em..

yeah tony does struggle with some of his ideas, sure scs seems to be getting bigger and bigger, but setting dates for races cant be that difficult here in oz (vs f1, cart, they dont worry about bike gp or wsbk)...theres 52 weekends a year tony, work it out.....winton rocks and is in my opinion the best scs race (great weekend in the bush) in victoria, i wont be a happy chappy if this race is lost to an overseas venture.

I hear ya gomick ..winton is the only track i get to each year ..if we lose its round then im gonna be ****ed.

as for Tony asking rahal..thats a bit rich isnt it..why would he even consider running against CART..there is no way channel 10 would be able to cover both races to a good level..tony my boy lay off the wacky tabacky and just play it cool dude

It's a shame I can't be at home just for this. Crash Test, would you kindly laugh at Cochrane twice as much and give him a DC wave, just for me?

Gladly:)

If Winton loses its round there would be something wrong....look at how much they have upgraded the place, simply to keep their SCS round...

Shades of Tasmania a couple of years ago?

Nearly 4 years ago this classic thread was started and in 4 years NOTHING has changed with TC or Avesco.

Tony C got rejected. He was having a **** and his hand went to sleep.

Is it just me or does TC seem to think that he speaks for and understands what the average Aussie and the World Wide audience want...

Maybe him and the several shiney bums at Avesco and Tega need to get off them( bums that is ) and mingle amonst the "average Joes" and get the correct information.

Who ever feeds TC his info does so from an ivory tower far far away from any where I know.

If you send suggestions to Avesco you get no reply or some lame excuse as to why that wont work or told that its not what fans want. Send them some critiscism or a highly opinionated letter as to what you think of what they are doing and you get a reply almost immediately and its not usually a nice one.

AVESCO want money and lots of it they want it from teams sponsors and anyone else - they forget that we the average joe are paying good $$$$$ to see their show and buy the merchandise and that some of us have lived and breathed this sport for many many years- possibly longer than Tony has been at SEL / AVESCO and some of us and I am pleased to say all of us here at Ten Tenths for example know what we like, we dont like, and what we want from our racing obsession for our money. Weve all been here long enough and enough about the sport to know what we are on about. I for one have been a fan of Aussie Motorsport and especially Touring Cars etc since I was 5 in 1977. Thats a lot of years and Im only a youngster some others here could give a lot more imput. TONY LISTEN TO THE FANS.

Originally posted by Crash Test
1stly he wants to go back to the October long weekend, which is fair enough i guess. The problem is that is the same weekend of the NRL/AFL grand finals, thus attendances would be down. Best news I've read about Tony in years!!! I've been waiting for bathurst to go back to the "REAL" weekend since the 2L race stopped.. Plus it is only up against NRL.. not AFL!! Bring it on!!

Yeah have to admit V8's back on the long weekend is the only thing he has got right.

But its not - it is the weekend after the post that refers to that is 4 years old

Gonya Toolman... surely you could have come up with something more recent!...

I probably wouldn't post something to this extent these days as it seems that Tony C has buttoned off a bit on the volume control, and really doesn't have to tell anyone to stick it anymore. That said, I think the China experience is going to be a bit of an acid test...

if it goes ahead anyway..

Just bale up TC or Kelvin in the paddock. They do sometimes frequent with the great unwashed... charity work I think its called ;)

Cochrane is on the TV playing with himself agian. Telling the world what a great venue Oran Park is. He is a boof head

Telephone call for Mr Perich... AV Jennings sir...!

Time for Cochrane to go

Originally posted by GTRMagic
Just bale up TC or Kelvin in the paddock. They do sometimes frequent with the great unwashed... charity work I think its called ;)

I thought it was Court ordered community service.......

oops thats a Rick Kelly if ever I've heard one...

I like the way TC keeps saying it is all too hard to go to Tassie because he can't get Govt backing to upgrade Symmons Plains.....in almost the next breath he was rabbitting on about how successful street circuits are crowd wise....and then (after the initial design exercise) how easy they are to set up!!

Well if that's the case why isn't there one being run in Hobart this year??!! (as much as I would like money plowed into an existing circuit first, get some runs on the board, with the long suffering fans)

Highlight of a boring show was Murph saying "yeah! lets go back to Canberra! (maybe a warmer time of the year would be good next time round and maybe a more appropriate set of streets!):rolleyes:

Originally posted by The Tool Man
If you send suggestions to Avesco you get no reply or some lame excuse as to why that wont work or told that its not what fans want. Send them some critiscism or a highly opinionated letter as to what you think of what they are doing and you get a reply almost immediately and its not usually a nice one.

AVESCO want money and lots of it they want it from teams sponsors and anyone else - they forget that we the average joe are paying good $$$$$ to see their show and buy the merchandise and that some of us have lived and breathed this sport for many many years- possibly longer than Tony has been at SEL / AVESCO and some of us and I am pleased to say all of us here at Ten Tenths for example know what we like, we dont like, and what we want from our racing obsession for our money. Weve all been here long enough and enough about the sport to know what we are on about. I for one have been a fan of Aussie Motorsport and especially Touring Cars etc since I was 5 in 1977. Thats a lot of years and Im only a youngster some others here could give a lot more imput. TONY LISTEN TO THE FANS.

Today, Tony C suggested that listening to the fans, as represented in arguement by Paul Gover, was emotive arguement and dismissed it.

btw - Paul, I'm sorry for everything I've said about you :)

Heh - you know why Tony Cochrane was similing through most of the show? Because both we and he can say whatever he likes, and people will still queue up to give money to him. Credit where credit is due, to be able to put yourself in such a position is pretty exceptional.

Originally posted by Falcadore
Today, Tony C suggested that listening to the fans, as represented in arguement by Paul Gover, was emotive arguement and dismissed it.

btw - Paul, I'm sorry for everything I've said about you :)

I thought Paul was closer to the truth about what the fan wanted than anyone on the show before only to cop a serve from TC...Looks like Paul may read this forum...wonder if TC does ?

TC has to air his ideas in an open public forum. He hasn't got Bazza to consult with now, before he opens his mouth.

Originally posted by TerryK
I thought Paul was closer to the truth about what the fan wanted than anyone on the show before only to cop a serve from TC...Looks like Paul may read this forum...wonder if TC does ?

I'm sure Paul Gover has other means of keeping tabs on the pulse rather than the time consuming task of scouring internet fora. Journalism is an extremely time poor profession.

That AVESCO and a lot of other V8Supercar people keep close tabs on Conrods forums is public knowledge, by extension you'd think quite a few would read here to.

The biggest problem in that regard is, while almost every other motor racing series accepts and uses fora as a positive thing, yes even Formula One I can attest to from years of working with Atlas, V8Supercar has taken a uniquely negative view and have been taken fora far too seriously, as if they are gospell in life.

Seriously there's more than a few in V8s who need to build a bridge.

Falc- absolutely, you'd be surprised who reads the various forii around the joint, and how easy that can catch you out ;)

Can I make this generalisation- people who get on forums are more towards the hard core person rather than towards the "Joe Boofhead" side of the audience. Maybe TC really talks to the VB-swilling-show-us-yer-tits majority rather than the people who are more into all sorts of motorsport?

Yes, the term "motorsport" gets used an awful lot when it's really V8 Supercars that he's on about.

Good on Paul Gover anyway for stickng up for us "little guys" only to get shot down in flames...:banghead:

Originally posted by Crash Test
Falc- absolutely, you'd be surprised who reads the various forii around the joint, and how easy that can catch you out ;)

Can I make this generalisation- people who get on forums are more towards the hard core person rather than towards the "Joe Boofhead" side of the audience. Maybe TC really talks to the VB-swilling-show-us-yer-tits majority rather than the people who are more into all sorts of motorsport?

As a generalisation of a generalisation, sports promotion is very like politics. The hard core fans, like hard core Liberal or Labour voters, don't need special attnetion because you've already got their vote regardless.

Tony Cochrane is after the swinging voters. They're the people he wants and needs to get trackside.

I don't think Paul Gover was shot down in flames, rather attacking TC & exposing his true arrogance for us all to see and hear. If anything it has made TC more of a boof head and total fool than I had thought previous.

I hope one day it all comes crashing down on him and reduces him to the **** ant he really is.

TC looked like a ravinig fool today . He won't listen to his paying fans and in the end HE could cause the death of this class

Originally posted by Crash Test
2ndly, in his infinte wisdom he has decided to set a date THE SAME DAY AS THE GOLD COAST INDY!!! But wait for it, it gets better...He then sent a request to Bobby Rahal for Cart to move their date!!!

from AA:
"Bobby's initial reaction is why don't you guys just move, (your date) which is fair enough, if i was in Bobby's position i would ask the same thing. It is a little hard for American's to get their head around the fact that we are a bigger championship in this country."


Given that Rahal is now in IRL I'm stunned that TC would even ask him.

Tony Cohrane dismissed his line of questioning as emotional and rhetorical. At least he tried. The Tasmania thing seemed to get under his skin quite effectively. The AUSTRALIAN Touring Car Championship also touched a nerve.

stmook- hrmm, check the date on that original post, it was from many years ago ;)

Originally posted by The Tool Man
If you send suggestions to Avesco you get no reply or some lame excuse as to why that wont work or told that its not what fans want. Send them some critiscism or a highly opinionated letter as to what you think of what they are doing and you get a reply almost immediately and its not usually a nice one....

...TONY LISTEN TO THE FANS.

Boycott buying team merchandise, and tell them why. Then we'll see who TC listens to...

Originally posted by Falcadore
As a generalisation of a generalisation, sports promotion is very like politics. The hard core fans, like hard core Liberal or Labour voters, don't need special attnetion because you've already got their vote regardless.

Tony Cochrane is after the swinging voters. They're the people he wants and needs to get trackside.

Ok so they keep an eye on Conrod so one would guess this forum would get equal viewing, we get drivers using their real names on both Conrod & ten tenths & I guess some using a handle as well then why not listen to the fans.

We should be racing in Tassi long before going off to China. What if Winton gets dumped ? Is TC only going to go to track that bend over & come up with the largest amount of cash ? Has the sport got that low ?

I've had to mop the floor myself actually after the Supercar/CART/Bobby Rahal line too.

Shows how hardcore some hardcore fans are really......

I thought it was funny later on at the end of RPM when Bill Woods said that Eastern Creek better watch out as instead of going there to replace China they will be either going to Tasmania or NZ for another round.
So how far after the superstars show on monday was RPM filmed or is it live?

Originally posted by colinbond
Time for Cochrane to go
Colonel Klink runs the show & he wont stand for any critism
from the unwashed masses, after all, they "no nuthing" & only contribute the "folding stuff":banghead:

Originally posted by Mattracer
Tony Cohrane dismissed his line of questioning as emotional and rhetorical. At least he tried. The Tasmania thing seemed to get under his skin quite effectively. The AUSTRALIAN Touring Car Championship also touched a nerve.

Maybe TC and a former pig farming prime minister have gotten together on subject of the limitations of being Australian :P

Originally posted by TerryK
....We should be racing in Tassi long before going off to China. What if Winton gets dumped ? Is TC only going to go to track that bend over & come up with the largest amount of cash ? Has the sport got that low ?

As the Crash suggested, there are 2 billion Chinese and around 2 hundred thousand Tasmanians. You do the math.

Originally posted by Falcadore
As the Crash suggested, there are 2 billion Chinese and around 2 hundred thousand Tasmanians. You do the math.

But would the Chinese go to watch Falcons & Commodores race?

Dunno, but fractions of fractions of billions are still a lot.

Originally posted by Falcadore
Dunno, but fractions of fractions of billions are still a lot.

There might be money to be made 1st time around when the Chinese come to see what's going on but don't know about the 2nd time could go either way.

Do the locals have the disposable income to go and spend on noisy taxis?

I still think they should have a race around the outside of Hong Kong island. Awesome piece of road in parts, ready made audience of a few million. Put that in yer pipe Bernie! ;)

Originally posted by Crash Test
Do the locals have the disposable income to go and spend on noisy taxis?

I still think they should have a race around the outside of Hong Kong island. Awesome piece of road in parts, ready made audience of a few million. Put that in yer pipe Bernie! ;)

Yeah Crash, it might be a nice run around the island but will it last?

I think we all agree that the Soopertaxis are on to something special (like NASCAR) where they appeal to the masses. But, to guaranty some longevity, TC needs to be really careful about how he deploys the teams that made him famous. I suggested Long Beach for an overseas destination noting the common interest between the two nations. I also recommended a Hobart street race for the Taswegians AND
a bunch of mainlanders who would travel over to see the spectacle.

Maybe TC needs a lethal injection of common sense!

:bag:

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4
Yeah Crash, it might be a nice run around the island but will it last?

I think we all agree that the Soopertaxis are on to something special (like NASCAR) where they appeal to the masses. But, to guaranty some longevity, TC needs to be really careful about how he deploys the teams that made him famous. I suggested Long Beach for an overseas destination noting the common interest between the two nations. I also recommended a Hobart street race for the Taswegians AND
a bunch of mainlanders who would travel over to see the spectacle.

Maybe TC needs a lethal injection of common sense!

:bag:
Hey guys, why not a street race in downtown Bagdad? That would get everbody's attention for sure!:laugh: :laugh:

How fast do you reckon an armour-plated all wheel drive Supercar would be anyway, carrying the bulletproof glass?

and god forbid what the top ten shootout would be like :)

It might at least prompt Seton to put on a full face helmet at last.

Originally posted by marcus
and god forbid what the top ten shootout would be like :)

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Thanks Marcus!

It would be very interesting to see just how much AVESCO pays in a dividend/dispersal of profits to shareholders each year, perhaps shareholder SEL for example?

Mike

Originally posted by TerryK
But would the Chinese go to watch Falcons & Commodores race?
If they could capture 1% of the market for China that would be at least 10 times that of Tassie,again it is numbers.

Funny isn't it how everyone is soooo keen to jump on TC's back and yet both Ford and Holden ,the companies that own the championship to the point of dictating weather another manufacturere can join in are able to allow the series to ignore such a booming market as Tassie

How many people who are keen to email,write to or chain themselves to the AVESCO truck over tassie have complained to either manufacturer about where the championship is going,me thinks none :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Show us the numbers and the money and we'll go to Tasmania - but like it or lump it -if you don't have the figures - go start your own series.

That sounds just like TC line the pockets first the good of the sport last.:laugh: :banghead: :laugh:

The Grumpy1 :) :)

Originally posted by Anthony Cochran
Show us the numbers and the money and we'll go to Tasmania - but like it or lump it -if you don't have the figures - go start your own series.

Like Ross Palmer did? Funnily enough, Mr P did not insist on putting "his" cars on street circuits left, right and centre, getting various state and local governments to cough-up heaps of dough to help pay for it and cut business out from under the noses of circuit owners/promoters who actually try to make some sort of living out of their rapidly devaluing pieces of real estate.
It concerns me that, one day when the street circuits have mostly lost their appeal and the race teams need somewhere to race, there will be few proper circuits left for them to race on.
In other words, short term success is not necessarily a good thing for long term security.
It worries me to a degree that even the temple of Australian motorsport, Mount Panorama, might not be as long-term as some would like to think because it is not getting sufficient numbers (read: dollars)compared to some other events.

Originally posted by stoned pony
Like Ross Palmer did? Funnily enough, Mr P did not insist on putting "his" cars on street circuits left, right and centre, getting various state and local governments to cough-up heaps of dough to help pay for it and cut business out from under the noses of circuit owners/promoters who actually try to make some sort of living out of their rapidly devaluing pieces of real estate.


And isn't that series just ticking along nicely,you could fit the entire field of NC cars on a Finemores car transporter and shuttle the fans to the track in a Greyhound bus.
Slip over to the PROCAR site and see all the happy campers pinching themselves with glee,$45 to get in at Oran Park to see a tad over half a dozen cars ripping around,no real TV deal to speak of and certainly nothing in time for anyone that wasn't related to a board being able to secure a sponser
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Threads with tittles like
Oran Park ticket prices

This from some rally dude
a MR Ed Ordin.....
"I am a huge Nations Cup fan but I really think that the cattagory either need serious work or needs to be put to rest. Remember when we had Vipers, Cup Cars, Challenges and Diablo that were all competitive. The Oran park round is embarrising."

Can NC adopt a new style.......

"it is clear to all of us (NC fans) that the decline of the catagory is mostly due to the huge costs of acquiring and running the cars."

Oh yeah what a model to compare with
:banghead: :banghead:
Do you think that the tracks that have a round would have spent $$$$ on facilitys if the threat of losing a round wasn't real?????????????
If fans/public and competitors in other classes really want these facilitys then why don't they attend any races and pay the true cost of opening the gates???

The point I was making, Onlooker, was in response to friend Cochran's post.
True, Procar is not as successful as SuperDuperCars but at least Ross Palmer is giving it a go and using existing circuits rather than making demands for an increasing number of street circuits or, on the other hands, demanding big upgrades on established tracks.
I think it is also fair to say that Nations Cup is not the only category Procar runs and the other categories seem to have good numbers.
Palmer and Cochrane are both dictatorial in their attitudes but I would suggest Palmer has a degree of benevolence that seems to be lacking in Cochrane.

I don't think that PROCAR have that many options as far as where they can race,from what I understand PROCAR are unable to get anyone to pay them to come to there venue and as such hire the race facility themselves and act as there own promotor,tracks wont take a punt on them and so they have no choice.
How do you imagine that helps motorsport in general?As far as the track is concerned it is the same as hireing it out to the Lower Mountains Motorcycle Club?
It is just not compareing apples with apples.I see strong parallels with teh end of 2 litre here.
You would have to say that the Porche guys are generally well to do guys that love racing,so they are not dills and can see a sharp bussines idea,how fast did they abandon the ship when the chance came to do CC with AVESCO?

Do I need to point out which series is the more successful - ours or Procar's?

I rest my case.

Mute point but AVESCO has no control over CC.CC is a support event controlled by Porche and Michelin.

The Grumpy1

Shouldn't it be about making every category successful, not gloating about who's is better than who's?

Very good point, Racer.

Hello Tony,

Great to see you bite the bullet and walk into the lions den. This forum is like life, you meet all kinds of people here.

But to my question, what is AVESCO doing about camping facilities at the mount? Officials have put up with a bunch of rubbsih for years and please don't just say its the local council, CAMS, NSW Govt, Feral Gumment or Intergalactic Council's problem.

What is AVESCO doing?:rolleyes:

Ok China has gone this year why not have a one off round in Tassie to test the water,put up with temp garages and slight track upgrades for one year show the government down here what they are missing out on.We now have three ferrys coming in. Over Easter they brought in 12 thousand people from Vic and NSW so that can only help, tell the goverment that this is a test and see what happens.

I would have thought that camp amenities were the responsibility of the track owners, not the category promoters. Next thing you will want them to do up the dunnies at Oran Park, access to QR, and put in a swimming pool at Hidden Valley!!!

Originally posted by White Knight
I would have thought that camp amenities were the responsibility of the track owners, not the category promoters. Next thing you will want them to do up the dunnies at Oran Park, access to QR, and put in a swimming pool at Hidden Valley!!!

If the facilitys are so bad why camp? I mean it is a once a year thing and people always complain that the camping is shocking,How does the camping compare to the Sandown 500 facilitys? or any other track for that matter,yes I accept that it isn't the best but hey if you choose to "enjoy" a race in a particular way then embrace it.All to often people hark back to the "good old days" but seem reluctant to fully experience it:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Imagine the uproar if they fully revamped the camping area and then whacked up the fee's to match.I would have thought that given PROCAR use the track the most they should be the ones responsible for the upgrades,after all they are on the track at least 3 times as long and require more officials.:angel: :angel:

Originally posted by Onlooker
SNIPI would have thought that given PROCAR use the track the most they should be the ones responsible for the upgrades,after all they are on the track at least 3 times as long and require more officials.:angel: :angel:
Ahem, it certainly wasn't PROCAR who *****ed about the state of the pits and corporate facilities, hinting that the V8s would stay away if things weren't improved. That little dummy split has cost NSW taxpayers and the local council big bucks, some of which just might have gone into reasonable upgrades to camping facilities.

Also, last look of the maps showed Mount Panorama a little bit further out of town than Sandown, so that comparison is a bit of a dud too.

Originally posted by Bigguy
Ahem, it certainly wasn't PROCAR who *****ed about the state of the pits and corporate facilities, hinting that the V8s would stay away if things weren't improved. That little dummy split has cost NSW taxpayers and the local council big bucks, some of which just might have gone into reasonable upgrades to camping facilities.

Also, last look of the maps showed Mount Panorama a little bit further out of town than Sandown, so that comparison is a bit of a dud too.

As most of us know Big guy TC jumps up & down expecting every one else to put money in for upgrades so he can make even more money....He really beered me off with his dummy split at Bathurst..what a ****.

Originally posted by White Knight
I would have thought that camp amenities were the responsibility of the track owners, not the category promoters. Next thing you will want them to do up the dunnies at Oran Park, access to QR, and put in a swimming pool at Hidden Valley!!!

Naaah, all too hard.....although Bazza did get the dunnies fixed at Barbagello!

Its all about the power of persuasion, if the people in their ivory towers stepped down once in a while to see the squalour that is the Officials camping area and facilities maybe we would miraculously get some action (DGMW, I am mighty grateful for the provision of the campsites..)

Originally posted by White Knight
I would have thought that camp amenities were the responsibility of the track owners, not the category promoters. Next thing you will want them to do up the dunnies at Oran Park, access to QR, and put in a swimming pool at Hidden Valley!!!

Considering Cochrane credited himself/AVESCO with Hidden Valley, QR, Wanneroo and Oran Park pits etc..etc.. and he will no doubt credit himself with the new Bathurst pits despite not contributing a dime........

But, in many ways i do agree with you. In a normal world it should be up to the people that own the track to do that kind of work.

Regarding the camping facilities, they have been exactly the same for decades, and really is unlikely to change, but i doubt many people are going to stop camping there.

Originally posted by Bigguy

Also, last look of the maps showed Mount Panorama a little bit further out of town than Sandown, so that comparison is a bit of a dud too.

But there are more motels within 10 km of the track than at Sandown isn't there?

Not necessarily stick up for TC here, but for a long time some permenant track facilities havn't been very good, the V8's have gone to these circuits and made the money from the largest drawcard in Aussie motor racing, this of course has generally been plowed back into the circuit which benefits the local racers.

Along comes TC, spends a few years boosting the profile of the V8's (remembering it has to compete with other sports for sponsor $ and our $), then demands that circuit facilities be improved for both spectators and competitors, I can't see a problem with that.

Why should AVESCO pay for the upgrades? there job is to market V8's which they have so far done succesfully. You wouldn't expect the Rolling Stones to pay for upgrades to the Sydney Opera House if they played there.

In the end its all busines now, businesmen now own some of the circuits, they are there to make money from it one would presume, If AVESCO were to pump money into circuit upgrades, then you would have to expect them to be repaid with some sort of profit share.

And what would be wrong with that, Kieron?

AVESCO chips in to help pay for upgrades, they take a share of the profit from ALL meetings held at the track.... i don't see a downside, UNLESS the prices to use the circuit skyrocket as a result of an AVESCO cash injection.

This way, Cochrane gets the facilities he wants, and the circuits don't have to go nearly broke tring to bend over backwards to please AVESCO, and being seen by some of their regular/local users as pandering to the V8s at the expense of everyone else.

Of course, this assumes that Cochrane would allow other classes to use "his" tracks at a reasonable cost.

Its pure and simple really, the circuit owners pay AVESCO to have V8s at their track, so it should be the circuits that have to ensure that amenities are up to scratch. The F1 circus don't pay for upgrades to Albert Park. If they were not happy they would simply go elsewhere.

But it's a bit rough when AVESCO put it all back onto the curcuit owners to spend (in most cases) in excess of at least a million dollars, and only threaten to NOT turn up if it's not done.... do any circuits have long-term contracts with AVESCO to at least allow them to have a chance to recoup the cost of jumping through all the hoops to put on the V8s?

I understand the sentiment of "you want us, you pay", and that's great for F1, because the whole city/state defrays the costs to a degree. Here, wer'e talking approximately similar numbers for individual circuits to come up with. Surely it can't be that far fetched to ask AVESCO to contribute in some way to the tracks and facilities they use?

I'm sure the AFL & NRL put money back into venues & facilities... that's the way i'd expect this to work as well.

Originally posted by V8 Superdave
And what would be wrong with that, Kieron?

AVESCO chips in to help pay for upgrades, they take a share of the profit from ALL meetings held at the track.... i don't see a downside, UNLESS the prices to use the circuit skyrocket as a result of an AVESCO cash injection.

This way, Cochrane gets the facilities he wants, and the circuits don't have to go nearly broke tring to bend over backwards to please AVESCO, and being seen by some of their regular/local users as pandering to the V8s at the expense of everyone else.

Of course, this assumes that Cochrane would allow other classes to use "his" tracks at a reasonable cost.

Nothing wrong with it Dave. But the economics have to work for AVESCO of course.

Out of interest, who has payed for what upgrades at the various circuits that have been asked to lift there standards by TC?

Wanneroo - wasn't it VB who chipped in?
Bathurst - local council?
Others (i'm not sure who else)

TC/AVESCO has an opportunity to put money into a circuit if he/they want.

There is 25% of shares in the company that manages Queensland Raceway currently "For Sale".

Rumoured price is around $1.5M for the 25%.

Any takers out there?

Upgrades? WTF! You have to be kidding!
What gets upgraded? The VIP suites!
Who gets the advantage of the upgrades? The VIPS!
Do the tracks ever get improved (improved, not changed) No!
Do the fans ever get anything out of the upgrades? No!

how many more stands were at adelaide? they made improvements to the track (turn 8) well.. tried to anyway..

I've been going to the Wanneroo circuit since 1977 and can tell you now that its been vastly improved in the last few years as a direct result of V8SC's, and ALL to the benefit of the spectators and competitors.

We have some people that really have no idea here. AVESCO looks after V8 Supercars. They do nothing for any other forms of sport (all they do is suck all of the blood out of other categories) and they do nothing for permanent circuits. I wonder where the next lot of V8 Supercar drivers will learn their race craft if all of the permanent circuits disappear.

pete55 I have heard the same sort of arguement before. What is AVESCO CAMS?. No they are there to look after V8Supercars. The only way they "suckdry" other catergories is by being successful. Sponosors love a catergory that is promoted well and is popular. Talking to competitors in other forms of motorsport, you get the distinct impression, that a lot of that lack of success lies in poor management(Speedway being a classic case)

Originally posted by White Knight
The F1 circus don't pay for upgrades to Albert Park. If they were not happy they would simply go elsewhere.

Maybe not Albert Park, but Bernie chipped in for Silverstone.

Hmm, how many rounds of the V8's do we have now compared to pre AVESCO?
How many V8sc rounds are there at permenant circuits compared to pre AVESCO?

Then we have the Konica series running at permenant circuits.

I'd say overall, AVESCO has increased the amount of races at permenant circuits and with the Konicas, introduced a stepping stone for new younger drivers to enter the main game. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the current crop of V8SC drivers are the youngest group in Aussie touring car history.

Isn't there something inherently wrong with a system where the promoter can simply demand (in some cases) outrageous amounts of money be spent to upgrade specific facilities at various circuits, just to continue to keep coming back?

This induces circuits to go all out to retain the V8s, and the local club people tend to be ignored to a degree, in that they're simply told they'll have to live with whatever disruptions to their programs in order for the V8SC to get what they want. Then the prices go up, and we as fans complain that all the upgrades seem to be for the VIPs (i take your point Kieron about Barbagallo... seen no track changes, but yes there ARE new pits, and a shyteload of corporate area, and one new entrance for Novus corner).

Then what happens if the circuit fails to comply? They lose the round (point: bet it wouldn't EVER happen at EC), the fans miss out, and TC gets an overseas street race, which makes AVESCO more money still.

He cares nothing for the RACING, or the fans of this sport, only for ways to extract absolute maximum cash.... what happens when he sees the bubble has burst, and moves on? Has anyone thought that far ahead? He buggers off, with an armoured car full of money, to rape his next cash cow, and the series we (mostly) love is left to wither, or flail about on it's own (because you can bet he'll tie up the naming rights, it'll have to be called something else).

My point is that other governing bodies for sports actively assist venues with this sort of thing, and Cochrane seems to think it's an affront to dare to request AVESCO do the same thing. He seems to think it's perfectly legitimate to lay down the law to track owners and fully expect them to bear the entire cost of him "gracing them with his presence". This costs millions of dollars, and i'd suggest there are some circuits which would barely be viable after jumping through Cochrane's hoops... don't the owners have the right to expect to be able to make a fair profit from the V8s? Or is it only Cochrane who's allowed to rape and pillage the wallets of the punters?

As someone asked somewhere else, is there any way to replace him, with perhaps someone who understands the sport, and will plan for longevity of the sport overall, not just make it look good on paper for possibly prospective buyers?

V8Superdave, he is following NASCAR's example to the Letter. He expects , like they do someone else to upgrade or build the tracks and they come and administer them. Bernie has put some money back into tracks in the UK, but is far from vast.

Kieron, on your point about the amount of rounds we have now compared to pre-supercars you'd be suprised at how comparitive the numbers are. In '92 which was the last year the Group A's ran there were nine rounds all held at permanent circuits plus they had Bathurst & Sandown which were not part of the championship which meant eleven races all up with ten at permanent circuits & one at Bathurst, when you take in to account that Sandown held two races we had eight permanent facilities hold events. In 2004 we have twelve races confirmed at this point with nine being held at permanent facilities, two on street circuits & then one held at Bathurst & when you take in to account that EC holds two rounds that means that only eight permanent facilities hold events, based on those figures i can't see where AVESCO has improved things for the promoters of permanent facilities.

V8 Supercars and Konica might have good fields but what has happened to the other categories. There is only so much corporate sponsorship available in a country like Australia and V8's seem to have soaked most of that up.

Exactly.... Cochrane's attitude is "If i can find a way to make more money than you, i'll bury you to do it, and be damned with what happens to the face of motor racing".

Somebody explain to me how that's good for the sport? Coz as i see it, it's only good for those involved in V8SC, and AVESCO in particular.

Sure, it gets the V8s lots of money and exposure, but almost all other categories get shafted, and then where do the recruits come from?... oh, i know, let's pay EVEN MORE money and import drivers.... what a *******g joke.

His myopic vision and sigle-mindedness will be the death of the other categories in Australian racing, and it seems that most are happy to let it go on, as long as they get to see their beloved Falcadores run.

I love seeing the V8s race, make no mistake, but it IS important to take care of the other racing categories as well, from amateur and club level up. If Cochrane's allowed to continue his monopolisation of money for racing in Oz, there won't be anything left worthwhile looking at, because they won't be able to afford to run at the same circuits, and in some states, that's the only place they CAN run.

If this was happening in a football team, the media and fans would be all over this like ants on honey........

V8Superdave, it is up to the other catergories to start getting into the Limelight. They have to organise something that will interest sponsors. As much as I do not expect AFL to try and promote Rugby League in areas where League is weak. Do not expect Cochrane and AVESCO to nuture other catergories The only way they do now is indirectly,by having them on as supports. Non-roadracing is also starting to come back(i.e. Drag Racing). We need more disciplines in motorsport to ptomote and organise themselves properly.
V8Supercar is doing what NASCAR is doing in the US. The same arguements are also being used there. Unless someone does a "PROCAR", Australian Rally, Targa Tasmaina or Bikes, then V8Supercar will keep on getting stronger.

Originally posted by pete55
There is only so much corporate sponsorship available in a country like Australia and V8's seem to have soaked most of that up.
Ey?? I don't know if I totally get your drift here. Whose fault is it that sponsors want to get behind V8s? Maybe if other classes built up to the level that the V8s are at, they would get the corporate backing.

Just going back a bit to 1992. The national classes competing were Group A touring cars, Formula Brabham, APCC, Sports Sedans, Formula Ford, Auscar, Nascar, and I suppose to an extent there were also the super trucks.

In 2004 we have V8 Supercars, Konica V8s, Nations Cup, GT Performance, APCC, V8 BRutes, F3, Future Racers, Aussie Racers, Carrera Cup, Historic Tourers, Formula Ford, Lotii, Commodore Cup, and I suppose later in the year F4000 and Trans Am/Sports Sedans.

8ish versus 16ish.

Would it be fair to say that with the growth in V8 Supercar there has been a growth in popularity of the other categories, and subsequently more money going into the sport.

The V8 fraternity are far from perfect, and they have done things wrong in the past, but can they be blamed for other categories not being as popular as they are?

Isn't that cause for concern? Is that how we want things to happen in this country?

For some smarmy money hungry prat to do NOTHING for the sport as a whole except steal the limelight and sponsorship, and line his own pockets? He's sure as hell not putting anything back, and his focus is on creating a commodity he can sell for the best price. Make no mistake, that's going to be what happens at some point.

He has no interest in furthering motor racing, in fact he couldn't care less, he's only concerned for what his BUSINESS is doing.

This is exactly the same kind of thing as a large supermarket chain opening a new store, and killing lots of small businesses. They couldn't care less, and neither does Cochrane. What happens to the competition doesn't interest them unless it impacts on their profits. The businesses might not be related, but the concept and attitude is identical.

And is anyone attempting to do something about it? No. We sit and say "That's the way it goes, and it's up to the other categories"....

Well exactly what can they do, if, as has been pointed out, the sponsorship pool is heavily tapped by V8SC? It's pretty hard to materialise a truckload of money, and do deals, when your'e running a poor second to Cochrane and co. He's in the power position (and doesn't he know it), and there's really only Ross palmer in anything like a position to offer any sort of reasonable competition. It's great to support Ross and others, but how long will that go on for if Cochrane continues as he is currently?

Add to this the ridiculous situation with events not being able to be held at non-CAMS affiliated tracks for some stupid reasoning of only CAMS can provide the insurance, or some such prepostorous other furphy.... how in God's name can anyone do anything about it?

I'm steamed about this, but i just don't know where to go or what to do for a solution.... is it worthwhile getting a bunch of people organised through forums to look at this and investigate? I'm happy to do what i can, but in all seriousness, i'm just an armchair punter with no involvement apart from spectating. I'd be happy to be contacted by anyone who's already involved, or can give some direction to what needs to be done to raise the profile and scope of the problem.

I don't doubt that Cochrane has done wonders for this series, but it's now at the point where his efforts are going to (if they haven't already) damage other racing, and that should not be allowed to happen, just because a business man wants to make more money.

Originally posted by V8 Superdave


For some smarmy money hungry prat to do NOTHING for the sport as a whole except steal the limelight and sponsorship, and line his own pockets? ..

..I don't doubt that Cochrane has done wonders for this series,


So which one is it? :banghead:

Sorry AJ.....

I was trying to get at yes, he HAS raised the profile of the sport, but whilst focusing on maximum dollar exctaction for his company. He's not done this benevolently, it's purely a money making excercise. Not accidental, but only for a specific purpose, a means to an end if you will. The next sentence though, AJ gave some context.... "but it's now at the point where his efforts are going to (if they haven't already) damage other racing, and that should not be allowed to happen, just because a business man wants to make more money"

Am i oversimplifying things? Seiously. I have a view, and i'm pretty strong in that view... am i failing to see other parts of the puzzle, am i too focused?

So far, people have been happy,with the improvements but now, when there's the outcry against Cochrane for the whole China and ignoring the fans thing, he basically pulls the "It's my series, and i'll do with it what i want" line.

I'm not saying that the sport being more popular as a result of his efforts is a bad thing, quite the reverse in fact, but if nothing's done, or he's allowed to continue in the way he currently conducts business, this series will be nothing more than a peak in his profit graph, before he moves onto the next project. He sees the series as his personal property, when clearly it's NOT.

That's NOT how i want to see the Supercars, neither do i want them to go (nor do i believe it's necessary to) overseas in order to continue to be great. I reject Cochrane's assertion that it has to happen. Home rounds will be replaced by overseas rounds, because i doubt there's the flexibility for teams and TV deals to extend the current season, and your'e not going to slot in overseas races as well as the current series rounds.

His reasoning for going overseas is that AVESCO gets a bigger slice of the action. Again i ask, do the TEAMS get paid more for travelling overseas, or is it just that the cost of travel and accomodation is borne by the local promoter? No increase in revenue to the teams as such, simply a reduction in the cost of attending that round.

So, again, where's the benefit? Cochrane tells us there's a "massive" audience in China, but refuses to back this up when asked repeatedly with any kind of figures which appear anywhere but inside his own head. I'm willing to be convinced there's an audience, if i'm shown some sort of projections, but until then, it's just someone telling me porkies to get his own way. I still don't believe the series needs to go overseas though. NZ excepted. At least we KNOW howe popular the series is there, and the fans support the racing when it's there.

exactly, who knows? if the series goes over to china, the people there spend up big on merchandise and millions of them watch the telecast/view the race, then wouldnt it be a good thing? Not for the people that lose a round here, but are we being greedy expecting the promoter to shell out their own cash to fix up rubbish tracks?

Do you think the teams will order and take with them 20 or 100 times more merchandise in the hope that the Chinese will want to be seen in it. I doubt there will be a big percentage of Chinese at the event, more likely expats and foreigners.
Also we are a small country, we don't have millions of dollars to spend on tracks. But if AVESCO sucked a little less from the tracks they might be able to upgrade them some more.

Originally posted by pete55
We have some people that really have no idea here. AVESCO looks after V8 Supercars. They do nothing for any other forms of sport (all they do is suck all of the blood out of other categories) and they do nothing for permanent circuits. I wonder where the next lot of V8 Supercar drivers will learn their race craft if all of the permanent circuits disappear.

:beer: I dislike street circuits, they don't give anything long term back to the sport as a whole, nowhere for driver training, road car evaluations, track days, car club drive days, testing facilities for the professional teams (in any category). Adelaide is OK, it has the heritage from the AGP and is a good circuit as circuits go.

Originally posted by V8 Superdave
neither do i want them to go (nor do i believe it's necessary to) overseas in order to continue to be great. I reject Cochrane's assertion that it has to happen. Home rounds will be replaced by overseas rounds,

NZ excepted. At least we KNOW howe popular the series is there, and the fans support the racing when it's there.

At least Ford/Holden are sold in NZ and there are some top line NZ drivers in the series.

I don't accept the idea that because it is an Austrlain series and it should be about Austrlia, (and NZ;) ) it is i some way regressive and backward-thinking to keep it here, call the the ATCC amd race on permanent circuits. What's wrong with that? Despite what many would have us believe , motorsport is not as widely accepted in the 'burbs as we're told. The vast majority of people in society just "don't get it" when it come to motor racing and despite the massive crowds at street circuits like Sdelaide and Indy, we're preaching to the converted anyway or the come latelys who don't know much except that "Skaseie drives a red Holden and MarCUS:rolleyes: drives a blue Ford, like tricky dicky used to."

Re the number of rounds today and in 92 . In the early 70s , 73 , 74 I think , you had the the 7 round ATCC , the 5 round manufacturers championship , which included Bathurst . You also had the South Pacific TC , run in conjunction with the Australian rounds of the Tasman Championship and also 4 or 5 round Sun 7 series run at Amaroo Pk . Plus you could run Touring cars in the Toby Lee sports sedan championship at Oran Pk which was 4 or 5 rounds as well . So you had a potential 24 meeting you could race or spectate at .

How many do we have today ?

Originally posted by Conrod Kieron
Hmm, how many rounds of the V8's do we have now compared to pre AVESCO?
How many V8sc rounds are there at permenant circuits compared to pre AVESCO?

Then we have the Konica series running at permenant circuits.

I'd say overall, AVESCO has increased the amount of races at permenant circuits and with the Konicas, introduced a stepping stone for new younger drivers to enter the main game. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the current crop of V8SC drivers are the youngest group in Aussie touring car history.

In 2004 we have 14 Championship rounds.

1996: 10 round ATCC, Sandown & Bathurst, AGP, Sunbelt Indy, Mobil NZ Series (16 meetings)

1986: 10 round ATCC, 6 round AEC, AGP, 5 round AMSCAR Series, plus i suppose you could include the Nissan-Mobil 500 Series. (so effectively 23 meetings, as one of the AMSCAR rounds doubled as ATCC round 1)

1987: 9 round ATCC, 5 round AMSCAR Series (included 1 ATCC round and 1 endurance race), 2 Australia endurance races, the Oran Park Silver Anniversary race (won by Steve Reed :)) Sandown & Bathurst, Calder WTCC, plus you could probably include the 4 Nissan-Mobil 500 races held that year, and the AGP (effectively 20 meetings)

Your are right about the age factor, there was a time when the average age was around about 40.
--------

It is all well and good to say Konica's race seperatly as well, but their crowds rarely break 4 figures. Is it really a good thing that we have just one series that can attract more than 10,000 people to a race?

The other thing is that no longer can a promoter just put on a race and hope for entries, you have to pay the category management before anyone will attend (though to be fair that implemented by TEGA in 1994, which effectively killed the AMSCAR Series on the spot)

Talking about AMSCAR , how many of the main teams do you reckon would still support a similiar championship now? You could probally pencil in Mal Rose and Mork but I doubt that to many of the current teams would be to concerned about attending, or if they did it would be a full test session complete with shock changes mid race!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wakefield Park is trying to give a rebirth to something resembling AMSCAR with the Touring Car challenge, for everything NOT permitted under V8 Supercar rules.

There must be dozens of EB-EF-EL and VP-VR-VS Commodores not doing a lot in sheds these days...

That isn't really what I had in mind, a bunch of old old race cars that have no budget and running parts that havent seen a crack testing in ages all breaking down and sliding off the track,we may as well just run 2 litres

No I mean full house BA's and VY's sponsered by magor companies and crewed by proffesional staff.

Originally posted by Onlooker
No I mean full house BA's and VY's sponsered by magor companies and crewed by proffesional staff.

We already have a series like that, it's called the V8 Supercar Championship Series. You've not heeard of it???

It was in relation to an AMSCAR series

I'd go for that. Then we could have all endurance rounds for the V8 Supercar Championship.

I never understood the point of the AMSCAR series. What did it mean?

Originally posted by Onlooker
That isn't really what I had in mind, a bunch of old old race cars that have no budget and running parts that havent seen a crack testing in ages all breaking down and sliding off the track,we may as well just run 2 litres.

Well actually Super Tourers are welcome in the Wakefield Touring Car challenge, as are Group A cars of all shapes and sizes. I think it's a top idea nad vastly preferable to leaving them sit in sheds.

If you think an EL Falcon is an old, old car, I suggest you get along to the next Historic Race meeting held in your area. I think you'll be very surprised.

dont see many historic endurance races though do we?

Onlooker, there are already too many catergories, we do not need another one.

Originally posted by DAVID PATERSON
I never understood the point of the AMSCAR series. What did it mean?

Not too sure what "Amscar" stood for but in reality it was the the forerunner of the Konica Minolta series run on a "control" circuit ie, Amaroo. I later times, it was a race test session for GMS/Winfield Racing.

Originally posted by Onlooker
It was in relation to an AMSCAR series

Racing in another series would be a contravention of V8Supercar testing rules.

So in answer to your question, and since you don't count the Wakefield series, then the number is a big fat zero.

The teams you mention as being AMSCAR potential don't fit into your defintion of non-Wakefield spec cars do they?

Originally posted by Onlooker
That isn't really what I had in mind, a bunch of old old race cars that have no budget and running parts that havent seen a crack testing in ages all breaking down and sliding off the track,we may as well just run 2 litres

No I mean full house BA's and VY's sponsered by magor companies and crewed by proffesional staff.

There are only two (three) series where you can race BAs and VYs, The V8Supercar Championship series, and the two PROCAR cagtegories, GT-Performance and APCC. Oh and the Brutes too I guess.

Originally posted by DAVID PATERSON
I never understood the point of the AMSCAR series. What did it mean?

The original AMSCAR series was a descendant of the various single circuit touring car series running around the country, the last of its breed in that regard. For a long time it was a three litre series, leaving it a Capri/RX3 series and later RX7s, until Frank Gardner lobbied the BMW 635 into the series in 1981, to the complaints of the Capri and Mazda drivers, who were already being put under the torch by the Blurbird and Pulsar turbos. The Falcons and Commodores were let into the series in '83, hell Moffat and Fury were fighting out the '83 championship, it seemed pointless to keep the V8s out by now. The series ebbed and flowed until the final series in '93 where it was staffed by Gibson VPs, Gardner M3s, the Forbes VP for Crompton and the many varied Sydney privateers.

The concept was revived by the ARDC in 1997 during the time AVESCO decided to isolate V8 touring cars from ARDCs big cash cow, Bathurst.

The main attraction of the AMSCAR series in the 70s and early 80s was that it had a better TV deal than the ATCC. At a time when TV coverage of an ATCC round depended on a promoter doing a deal with a TV station for the one particular event, the AMSCAR series had live or same-day coverage of every race on ATN-7.

Even in the years 7 were covering both with equal emthusiasm, the series still presented great TV, good prizemoney and another chance for a race, which really is the point of everything isn't it?

I may be wrong, but wasn't the 3 litre series different to the AMSCAR series, at least in the late 70s? There was the Sun 7/Rothmans and later Better Brakes Touring Car Championship for the 3 litre and lower class cars, and the AMSCAR series for the big cars? That of course changed in i believe 1982, when the ARDC were pushing big cars not only for Amaroo but for the James Hardie as well.

If a good TV package and decent prizemoney was offered, i don't see why teams wouldn't compete if something like that could be organised (along with contractual obligations to AVECSO sorted out).

Originally posted by Robert Ryan
Onlooker, there are already too many catergories, we do not need another one.

With you 100% that there are 2 many classes , but I don't have a problem with another series for the cars.
Look I have no dream of it happening,just thinking aloud when someone included the AMSCAR championship in there tally of races in years gone by.

The reason that I didn't go for the older cars is that neither did the AMSCAR, they were current cars fielded by current teams,Nissen was a big supporter of it. :) :)
I would like top see a few more cars I guess,and some drivers with miles on the board,then open up the grid spots for Bathurst and let the cars line up around the corner again.:beer: :beer:
I know it wont happen but it would be nice to see 50 touring cars head up the hill again:beer: :beer: