Ff1600

What is happening to FF1600??

At the end of last year you couldn't move at the Festival for 1600s but now we have the Brands series with six runners, Midlands with about a dozen, Combe with slightly less than before and only Oulton still with its usual 4,612 entries in 18 classes.

Where have all the cars/ownders/drivers gone? Why?

Before someone suggests it I am sure that there is more to it than just £15 or so on some race entries....

I was wondering the same thing!

FFord has always been one of the best formula to marshal and spectate, good close racing with pretty evenly matched machinery, allowing the skill of the driver to come to the fore.

There must be hundreds of cars in garages just begging to be used?

hundreds of championship fees, travell costs, race costs, transpoder costs too !

oooh and club memberships too

It's a bit like being a marshal then? :)

At Oulton there is only 2 classes as in 2002. Class A for post 86 and class B for pre 87. So far for this weekends meeting there are 33 cars entered, so at least in the North-West the class is still strong.

The cost of FF1600 has been driven up if you wan tto be at the sharp end, with the advent of Zetec Chassis (15,000 instead of 6,000. This os coupled with the tact some people have been doing it for 20 years, it makes it a rather unattrative proposition to new people. Why spend 20,000 a year winning a FF1600 championship, against people with illegal chassis, bent engines (probably half the grid!), and people who were doing it before your were born, Kestenbaum, Wills etc. You can do Formula Zip, or Radicals or mono for that sort of money. FF1600 needs to get back to its roots. No bent engines (maybe check them at start of season and seal them?), Proper Kent chassis, no Zetecs! Big grids, lower entry fees. FF1600 used to be the best racing by a long shot, but people throwing too much money at it, with illegal cars are killing it!

A Zetec RF00 roller is about £5,000 with conversion costs of about £1,000 plus engine - that's not £15,000??

15 probably is a bit on the otimistic side, but a roller is at leat 9-10, conversion kit is 1500, engine 2000, New bodywork(some is different)300, new dampers(can't use 3-way) and modifications to geabox £200. Total: 13,000. A very competitive VD RF90 with engine is 6000-6500.

A Kent car from the factory, new is 27,500

I can tell you of at least 4 RF00 cars available right now for £5k - perhaps plus a little bit.
I've been offered one recently c/w Scholar engine, ECU, loom, Ohlins, Madins, spares for £9,000. Nobody wants the ****ing things!

For FF1600 you want the Bilsteins, Wellers and the only new bodywork you need is the engine cover...

The new Kent price you have quoted is for an Aussie spec car I think, which is not eligible for UK FF1600, hence Jadlam had to make some significant changes to their cars last summer.

I am not convinced that the Zetec conversion is quicker. It should corner quicker being very wide track but straightline speed is down as the car is wider and also with the ******* great sidepods that MUST be run for the UK regs.

(I have also heard that the BRSCC are very seriously thinking of banning such conversions from most series as this would **** off about 4 people but allowing them to run is ****ing off dozens of 90 to 95 owners)

That price is UK spec not aussie, VD can do them. I think they must be faster, probably not a huge amount thought, 0.5 sec? The wider track and stiffer chassis should make the handling a lot better, I wouldn't have thought that they are any slower in a straight line than a 88-92 Reynard, as thay have large side pods too. Admittedly the Swifts/VDS are slippier.

I can't understand how they get away with the wider track?

I spoke to ed moore at silverstone he said that he had not gone as quick in hes rf00 as he did in his 93 swift at castle combe!

I spoke to him too, to be fair he said he was still trying to find his feet. They are definately quicker, Just look at Gavin Wills, The guy in the brands Championship (can't remember his name!) I think Gavin wills is around 0.3s quicker so far, but he will get quicker.

JR EWING


I will buy one of those cars for 5k

Have two for that price, a spare!

Gavin would still beat most quys just with his experience and car set up knowledge

Ill sell the old rf92 and buy 3

He would always be near the front, but the are s of mids people that are close this year, and he didn't whitewash last year with his swift.

You need to pay bold now then

don't know About Ed at Silverstone but he did some great laps at Combe, last meeting. he is normally quick (as you say even in his swift) however he glided past me on rails if thats finding your feet.......(plus it was a very cold morning)

Wills will be beaten at some point this year, Daly, Dawkins, Jackson are all very quick. Wills Can't win the championship I don't think because he misses too many because of Ascar.

Looks like we all need to raise are games and show these old boys

theres now more jackson is there and whos dawkins?

darcym are you doing the king of kent at silverstone gp?

Forgot to add that the RF00 weighs a LOT more than say an RF90-92 which also makes acceleration poor.
You must remember that the guys running the converted cars are very experienced and qucik and also have top engines/new tyres. They'd all be quick in more 'traditional' cars.
The Aussie spec cars have no sidepods and lighter uprights a la Zetec RF01 onwards.
While the Reynard 87F to 92F series had wide pods they are overall over a foot narrower than the RF00 - it's an illusion because the Reynard is a narrow car - trust me, i drove a works-assisted Reyanrd FF1600 in that period.

Anyone who doubts the price of Zetecs I know that Steve Magill is selling a roller with a full C-dash/logger. He will take £6,000 cash I think - £4,800 without the dash or wheels. That's on Bilsteins.

Joh Loebell of Medina had a couple but I think they've gone. John Uprichard will get you a roller for less than £6,000 and Des Donelly will sell Charlie's white RF00 for £6,000 or so - as he bust all four corners off at the Festival this car has all new suspension and half new bofywork so is in good nick...

The other problem of the RF00 etc. is the ****ing price VD charge for w/bones and sidepods. Take a whole side off and you're looking at about £3,000!

I agree the reynard is a better car it looks fantastic on the track in good hands

Originally posted by copse
theres now more jackson is there and whos dawkins?

They say Jackson may be back for more, hes said he is leaving before, Justin Dawkins, he has been in the top four in the last 3 races, was second to wills a mallory last month, hes quicker than Jackson. I think he is the youngest driver on the grid?

how old is he?
and we will see at cadwell this weekend its a hard circuit so experience may help and does anyone know who is doing gp race?

So you must be Mr dawkins then? Welcome...

no not me

Im not, too much $$$$$$. I think he is about 18/19. Hes pretty quick. Theres no testing before Cadwell, so unless hes tested ages ago hes going to struggle! althought I don;t think he had driven silverstone national before, but still finnished fourth, holding off Jackson for most of the race. He beating Kestenbaum!

Personally I have found that the difference between a newer Kent car say a 97 like mine and a pre 90 like my old 89 Vandiemen are that ultimately they are about half a second different on similar tyres BUT a newer type car and I include the 00 Vandiemens in this, tend to use the tyres much harder so get the best out of new tyres. I found about .5 or more when I could put new ones on.

There are plenty of people who can beat these in the 00 Vandiemens Daly is one of them! I don’t think these cars are unbeatable its just a shame that they mean the budgets are going up because people feel they have to spend more to keep up, which is probably true for the above tyre reason

You Midlands kiddies are certainly on the ball. Just remember back in the mid 90s, peopel were doing the Star of Mallory and doing 48.2s race in/race out. A few of the old boys would make mincemeta of today's field - Gavin Wills included (who i think would go quicker in his 92)

Mattray - what are you doing this year - did I see your dad sprinting at Silverstone? Are you coming out for thge Festival (I heard gavin's going to be on holiday...)

Doh!

hahaha thats a shame I was looking forward to getting my own back on him!!

Yup dad was sprinting he did really well getting a 4th he is getting to grips with having the engine behind him and seeing him Brake exactly where I told him to fully locked up and still making the corner made me so proud!!

I wont be racing until I can afford to do it properly I underestimated the tyre cost last year especialy considering the damage I had. Its shocking how much moving out of home costs!!

what were you doing at Silverstone?

So mattray, are you saying a newer car (RF90 on) with new tyres is 1 sec quicker than than RF89 with new tyres but only 0.5 secs when tyres are a bit worn??

At Silverstone I was just watching, having been bored at home . Sprints are always good for looking at cars as there is such a wide variety and there were a couple of good BARC single-seaters too, although I am not sure how competitve the drivers are..

errrm I am saying that on similar tyres (old) the new cars are about .5 faster then the pre 90's and when the new cars have new tyres, and the old cars are on old tyres they are a full second faster. BUT if they are both on new tyres I should think the gap remains about .5 maybe a bit more but I dont think a full second.

make sence?

Originally posted by formulafordster
Why spend 20,000 a year winning a FF1600 championship, against people with illegal chassis, bent engines (probably half the grid!)

I missed thsi earlier...

No way would Neil Bold do an illegal engine and I seriously doubt Martin at Auriga would either.

I remember a few years ago at mallory one driver raising merry hell about bent engines when he meant that he was **** slow coming off the bends and was thus overtaken, but he wouldn't have it and eventually went off to do 6 volt wheelbarrow racing or something where he is equally uncompetitive!

Originally posted by mattray
errrm I am saying that on similar tyres (old) the new cars are about .5 faster then the pre 90's and when the new cars have new tyres, and the old cars are on old tyres they are a full second faster. BUT if they are both on new tyres I should think the gap remains about .5 maybe a bit more but I dont think a full second.

make sence?

yes thanks.

I'm interested as I'm rebuilding an old RF88 which I am going to make a 'comeback' in although I'm thinking I'll do the Classic series on the continent where they run ACB9s or Dunlops with the original profiles

No im not! I don't race s of mids. Rf88 shouldn't be far off a 90-92? only the gearbox might not be as quick? Wot did you used to race JR?

Been some great threads on this of late of late and this is another. Some very good views, I think the only sad thing about these cars the budget increase.

In some ways I enjoy the tussels of 2 good drivers one in a zetec style car, the other in the standard post 90 cars, the zetec guy under pressure to win (as he is in the better/faster car) and the other guy spured on to show up the other car who on paper should win. could be the making of some great races. Assuming I where good enough I would think twice about buying one of these cars

a.) Cost
b.) running cost
c.) every win I get will be undermined by the fact that I won people in lesser cars
d.) every loss will be rubbed in my face beaten by lesser kit
e.) If I won a championship in the current situation (zetec chasis being slated) I would never be the guy who won the championship, I'd be the guy who needed the flash car to beat the others

Quite a bold and brave move to run one of these cars in the current climate sort of like putting your name on the line of being good.....but not good enough if you don't win.

I do think it is a beat of a "play on words" though as these cars are not really kent cars, however does liven things up, X was in the better car, X was cheating, etc etc

Bring it on !

Originally posted by formulafordster
No im not! I don't race s of mids. Rf88 shouldn't be far off a 90-92? only the gearbox might not be as quick? Wot did you used to race JR?

Serious FF1600 in the late 80s then a bit of FVL and Class B F3 until ran out of talent (not that long)!! Since then a bit of occasional fun , mainly FF1600 and a bit of Zetec.

As Mattray may remember I am a fan of Zetecs but I am annoyed at:

A) people converting Zetec cars to a period class/formula
B) other people assuming that these cars must be quicker which I'm certain they aren't - they're just driven by good drivers
C) People assuming an RF00 conversion is expensive as I know I could do one for the same price as good SC94/5 would cost. It might be a touch more cash only but it would be a fully rebuilt car which is worth pounds anyway

There is a place for Zetec cars and there is a place for FF1600 cars - just as there is a place for FF2000 cars.

FF1600 should have strong regional series and a mini national series.

If budget is really such an issue for people I can assure you that a Zetec costs much less to run (unless you keep breaking corners off) as the engine doesnt need rebulding every 10 to 20 hours of running (more like 100) and second hand, good tyres are available for beer tokens. I mean you can buy a good 96/97/98 VD for a good couple of grand less than any reasonable RF90.

Finally, back to 1600s I am sure that nothing is quicker than a well-prepared Van Diemen RF90 which was the best, most-forgiving FF1600 ever built. Not any Swift 92-95, Not any Zetec conversion and certainly not the RF91 or RF92 (nightmare monoshock car).

NB The 88 will never be as quick as the 90 onwards but it came cheap (2 grand) with a buggered engine an dthe Eorp series has an 88 cut-off. They are so keen they will spot me even with a wide-track RF89 set up. The 88/89 will just not work it's tyres as well as the all pushrod cars can and the MK9 is a slower changing gearboz than the LD200, hence that series 88 cut-off.

**** me, i love Formulae Ford I do!

Ive just finnished rebuilding an RF86, and hope to do s of mids, can't wait they are such a good car! Wots your real name JR if I may be so bold!

Sorry, I've upset people on here before with my 'keeness' so I must remain JR Ewing which offers no clue.

Doubtless you know what a good car the RF86 can be (probably the best handling after the RF90) and such a car, driven well, will clean up in class at Mallory - although it's a shame they don't have more Class B cars. I always think it's such a shame that the split isn't pre-90 but they won't do it because the Reynards had identical chassis from 1987 to 1992, just slightly differing bodywork. Interestingly, Reynard made a load of cars in 1990/1 and there was a big demand a few years ago for FF89 chassis plates for the pre-90 Superclassics and Class B at Combe...

The RF86, of course, is the last car that has the drivers feet infront of the wheel centerline. The 87 was an 86 with a bit added and front pushrods and was an abolsute nightmare to drive compared the the 86...

I'll keep a quite lookout for soem new chap in his RF86. Good luck. Without knowing your experinece and encouraging you to kill yourself by going too quick too soon a 48.5 is possible in a very well prepped RF86. I think sub-50s will win the class now?

Well ive raced a bit of go karts, so no really experienced, I have been an armchair S of mids watcher for some time now, and it looks as though your right, a 50 is about fast enough. I mean with theright driver an 86 looks as though it could challenge for the overall podium, I mean apart from wills the other front runners this season only seem to be doing 49.3s regularly, sometimes faster but no lap after lap.

why do you think that lap times have incresed so much round mallory compared to their hayday? i mean it can't just be the drivers, because some of them know their way around, wills kestenbaum etc?

That's right. They CAN turn quick laps but not one after the other which is always a dead giveaway...

The 'hayday' had Dunlop tyres which were shaved when new to bedome very much 10 lap specials. Also the engines then were built to a slightly higher spec, much higher price, - it was the equivalent of Zetecs today. A few years ago when Russell Dixon and then Mike Bennett won, they were in the low 48s (and they didn't do anything much in Zetecs speedwise). Even Phil Leach managed mid-48s. Without insulting them, I don't think today's drivers are quite as good although doubtless still competent and worthy competitors. I've no doubt the Oulton boys are a bit quicker.

So it is the drivers, not the avon tires or something?

No the ACB10s are better alround tyres and far more consistent. We used to spend a fortune on Dunlops and always had to bed them in while testing because half of them were ****!

The only thing I don't like about the Avons is they're really awful in the wet and the car is so unstable compared to say a Zetec. In fact driving a Zetec in the wt is a bit like driving an FF1600 on ACB10s in the dry...

Surely then Kestenbaum is not a quick as every one says, because as far as i know he hasn't broken into the 48s this year

He's probably rusty - he's been away in older, less able classic cars - it takes seat time to get it back. I can assure you that Stuart is very, very quick, although he is getting older so who knows. BTW, I am not him. I think he hold the class B record in an FF84, something around 48.4, doesn't he? The Reynards 87-92 were identical chassis but they were all based on the 83FF whne VD produced a car that was as pleasing to look at as an Allegro Vanden Plas, had the same top speed as a Lada Riva and handled like a Maxi (on full tanks).

Mind you, you could convert a 2010 Zetec or whatever car but still won't beat jamie Spece's Quicksilver special from 1992.

I don't know he may do, people tell me hes one of the quickest, but he seems a bit lackluster this year, don't know why, he finnishes normally 4th or 5th. I take it you are refering to the RF84!

Ive never heard of that, what is it?

No the RF84 was a jewel compared the RF83. You don't see many 83s around as they were all buried to avoid offending people (irate drivers mainly). Funnily enough Everyman Racing School has a fleet of the old dogs...

Quicksilver were special American engines imported by the Swift works team in the early 90s. They weren't allowed to touch or even see the internals - a slight oil leak or an over rev, back on the plane they went!

I'm going to bed now but, in Class B if you follow any advice some like Stuart K gives you you will be on the right track.

Thankyou, I must sleep too!

I do think people are missing the point about "kents". I raced in 90-92 in FF1600 - in the 92 meeting at Mallory the slowest time was a high 48! You were on the resereve list if you were in the 49s. I appreciate the top boys were running very strong engines, but even my leased scholar (£1/mile) was good enough for mid grid. I just think the level of competition means that you will never see those times again. give you another idea - pole at Cadwell was a 1.32 (warren hughes) - I qualified (my first ever race) in the 34s and was pretty much last. i am sure a 34 would walk the race nowadays. If you put this year's FF Zetec runners into kent cars those times would come down again.

Also, the zetec conversion busines. firstly, when I came back racing last year I looked at kents - they are way too expensive. You can buy a good 2000 car (ie Steve Magill's is the ex-franchitti chassis) for nothing and convert it for a bit more than JR says (you need to change sump/enginve cover/wheels/pipes/looms/exhaust etc etc). But why? Run in Zetecs - they have proper tyres (you can buy good 10 lap old ex-national slicks for about £30 a tyre), engines are long life (same rebuld costs) good grids in the SFFC and getting better in NFFC and you can buy all the spares from the big teams for buttons. The accident costs are the same as an FF - the only rip off is the nosecones which are £600 each. I think you must be mad to enter FF1600 because you think its cheaper!

BTW I run in SFFC

Mallory 92 times were on Dunlops!!

Really, what does, say, an RF01 lower front wishbone cost?

about £280 (i think!) can;t believe that its that different in price as contruction is basically the same process as a 91 wishbone. However, there is a man in Aussie - who happens to come over to the UK a bit, who may make them cheaper...!!! Aussie $ is pretty good versus the pound !!

An RF90/91 bottom front is about £105.

You must have too much money - lol.

There is too much costly bodywork on a Zetec, sidepods etc, and the spares cost a fortune compared to FF1600s.
A major problem for someone with a trailer is carting around slicks/ spare slicks/ wets etc. At leats in FF1600 you have one set on the car and one spare set to be carried around for wets/damage replacement.

The only thing wrong with FF1600 is the engine costs.

What we should have is FF1600 chassis with a controlled 1600cc Zetec engine. Cheap and mega!!

...from Van Diemen??? That is bl00dy cheap for essentially what is the same item.

I hear what ur saying about the tyres - i wish we had one type only - they should have based the zetec formula around an engine that fits all chassis - or dare we say it - scrap Zetec and move back to kents and single tyres. The only way FF will be the way is used to be is to have the same formula at national/european level as at club level. It will never happen tho'..

Shame, its still the best entry level formula..

1) VD don't do spares for those older cars. There are a few providers which amkes more of a competitive market for prices (which are still fixed). A w/b costs around £15 to make, max.

2) 'Apparently' Zetec will end after 2004 to be replaced by a new Ford engine. At that stage FF1600 will still be strong but Zetec will be perilously weak and will be like the BARC Renault series...

could you send me a private email with details of these guys who can maek wishbones .... tkx

I had heard that about zetecs - hopefully we will get some clarification from ford before the 2004 festival!!

Firstly it is great to see so many people passionate about FF1600. I am going to reply to this thread and comment on various issues that people have mentioned - please don't feel that I am attacking any individuals, merely stating my opinion as one with experience of FF1600 and a true enthusiast having grown up in the scene and followed it all my life!

Oh and by the way I am Ed Moore. It would be great if those participating in this thread let everybody know there names - I hate not knowing who people are in these forums! We all share the same interests after all!

Sorry to have to start with you JR EWING! I believe that FF1600 is still pretty strong, the Southern series was quite weak already last season and the King of Kent’s entry for Silverstone on Monday is strong, despite clashing with Combe. Any minor downturn is surely due to the economy - entries in many other classes have suffered much more than FF1600.

FORMULAFORDSTER - the newer cars do not cost £15K or even £13K (I know having spent a month converting one). Also you do not need anywhere near £20K to compete for a Championship. My Father and I run my car in our spare time and thus our running costs are very low compared to running with a team - for us this is much of the fun of racing.

I personally like racing against the old hands - in my opinion it gives the racing more kudos and respect in the motorsport environment. It is good for youngsters to be able to try and beat fairly well known quick drivers.

Also Formulafordster I would say that the majority of people are running legal engines - you don't need to cheat to be fast and I am sure someone like Neil Bold/Scholar/Auriga would never turn out illegal engines. To go quickly you need a good legal motor, well sorted car, good tyres and a talented driver.

In terms of competitiveness of older vs. newer cars then just look at the lap times achieved so far. Wills and myself have not moved the goalposts. Last year my fastest official time at Combe in a '92 Swift was 71.9 sec (pole for last August I think) and so far in my '00 VDiemen it is 62.6 sec (fastest lap last time out). The new car is very good and lovely to drive but the times tell the real story! Gavin would still be winning in his 92 Swift and in fact he was beaten twice last weekend by Peter Daly's '89 Reynard (as I had been after being on pole at Silverstone the other week!).

Also Formulafordster the cars are well within the legal requirements for track width as printed in the official regulations that haven't changed for years. Converted ex Zetec Vectors are wider still.

Don't forget that this whole ting about ex Zetec cars has been around since Zetec came into being in 1993. For example Swift SC93F's are ex Zetec chassis, as are 94's, 95's, 96's, 97's etc. At Combe even Roly Hamblin's 1996 Swift is an ex Zetec car and the works assisted Ray I drove in 1997 was based totally on the Zetec design.

Van Diemen spares for the newer cars are dear, but there is so much stuff around now that it's easy to get 2nd hand and pattern parts cheaply.

In reply to JR Ewing again (sorry!) regarding Mallory in the mid 90's compared to these days, I did the odd meeting back in '96 and '97 and generally was faster than the regular runners there, winning races, setting poles and fastest laps. I won there twice last year and have to say that the level of competition at the front was pretty similar. Although maybe I am slower than I was after my break from racing!

Once again sorry for singling out the odd persons postings, but I felt this was the only way to offer my opinion.

At the end of the day racing is about competition and fun. I didn't intend on buying a '00 chassis this winter, but after seeing them advertised cheaply felt that they offered great value and look fantastic. I was always of the opinion that it was good that Jon Adlam had bought new cars and that this was supporting FF1600, otherwise the category would eventually simply become another historic series.

Hope to see some of you on Monday – do come and say hello.

Ed Moore

Oh just one other thing.

The Mallory Class B lap record I think is held by an old Karting mate of mine called Gary Powell. If my memory is correct I think it is around 49.5 set in September 1996, the same day I set the fastest race lap at 48.49 (again I think!). Stuart Kestenbaum doesn't hold that record, fine driver that he is.

I don't think we're disagreeing on a whole lot there Ed. I'm just concerned at being less numbers for such a good formula.

We seem to agree that a converted RF00 is not necessarily quicker than a good 90-95 car etc.

While a lot of Swift 93-95 cars are converted Zetecs, they were really designed as Kents and the designs altered to suit Zetecs whereas later cars (roughly 96 on) have the design basis in the Zetec formula. Also with the change of sidepod regs for all FFs from 1996 on I don't really think you can compare a SC93 with an RF00...

My opinion is that the Midlands series is not quite as strong now as it was back in 98 when you had the new Ray. Good drivers that they may be now (probably Gavin most of all), I think Mike Bennett and Russell Dixon from that period were consistently quicker - but that's just my personal feelings of course. Maybe it's just that there was a bit more strength in depth back then when now only really Wills and Daly are right on it?

Do you think you'd go quicker back in the Swift you've been trying to sell fro quite a while now? If so, why not return to it and flog off the RF00??

As soon as I saw Gary powell I knew that was right!

49.44 in Sept 96 in a Reynard 84. Pale yellow I think it was? (and in need of new bodywork!) The car was still running in the late 90s with a driver who got to about 52 sec laps - the one I mentioned well above who moaned about bent engines!

Haha I knew I was right about Gary - he and I raced Karts in the early 90's and he was a good guy. He was run by Colin Thorpe - another nice chap!

And yes we are in agreement about a good few things.

A chap is supposed to be buying the car next week - but there seem to be a few timewasters present, so if he brings me the money then all well and good, but I am not despereate to sell - Autosport keep putting the ad in, I only paid for 3 weeks!

My new RF00 is far too pretty to sell. My pace is more dependent on the time I have available to prep my car - I am far too busy with the business, as is Dad with the Farm. Need a good new helper - any offers?!

We even have a 1980 Swift DM3 that is an ace car in Classic FF1600 that if we had time we would wheel out. It's the last car my Dad made.

Both Peter Daly and I were well below Mike Bennett's Silverstone Int. lap record the other week and the only times I struggled with Russell Dixon was when sorting out the all new Ray which was in 1997, once sorted it was easy! (not wishing to sound big headed but that is the truth).

Perhaps the strength in depth is down a little, but it will come back I am sure.

Here's hoping for a little good fortune on Monday!

I raced in that race at Silv Int'l back in 1998 and it rained like a monsoon in the morning and was still a bit damp in the race so I should think you did beat his time...

It was hard to though!

So go on JR who are you? We must have met at some point?

The 1997 Silverstone National lap record is still in tact I think?

Actually I think I was wrong. It p*ssed down in Friday testing and on the Sunday when Jos Vertsappen did some demo runs in the Stewart-Ford but Saturday when we ran was the only good day. The track was very green though and Bennett won easily although I do now remember a highlight being his awning collapsing in the paddock...

That was the first ever FF1600 race on the Int'l track and I don't know how that new lap record has stood up since but I always thought he was a damned quick driver.

I can't say who I am due to having upset a few people on here before...

No worries JR! If you are around at a meeting when I am please do come and say hello - I promise not to reveal your true identity - I am sure we could both bore Britain with facts and figures about FF1600 over the last few years! That would be before my Father staretd on about stories of the good old 70's, "heats, finals, cheap entry fees, racing on a Saturday, Sunday and then on a Monday all over a Bank Holiday weekend at different circuits!"

I am not one to come onto these forums often, only when someone draws something to my attention and I feel strongly about something and I am extremely passionate about FF1600! I have seen the consequences of what can happen on web forums, so always am careful before I press send. Already someone has *****ed about me on another thread!

Right must dash and all the best to all!

Ed

Hello every one again, Ed you have made some good points, particularly about the series evolving and not becoming a historic championship. It thought be an Idea to have pre 87, pre 93 and post 93 classes in future? just so as 88-93 cars do not become worthless in years to come, because regardless of speed people will always want newer cars. What really p*!?#s me off, bearing in mind the close racing we have had this year in FF1600, is that people ignore it and go and race ARP, MG midgets and formula mini super something or other!, or formula Vee!! I mean I know i am biased, but with close competitive racing that does not cost the earth, Why the **** does anyone want to go and race anything else!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ed,

in the longer of your posts you said you fastest time in the swift was 71.9 seconds....I am hoping you mean 61.9 seconds, as I have you down as a 1:12.3 on one of my old timesheets

surely 1:12.3 is 71.3? I think the 61.9 was a typo or set one morning before he woke and got up

sorry - I got my own question back to front too

No wonder FF1600 is going down the pan!

only joking!!!!

Ok folks the thread trying to identify the Stig from Top Gear threw up some interesting names, how about trying to work out who JR Ewing is, shouldn't be that difficult, he's given us enough clues including racing in FF 1600 in the late 80's, FVL, and an ARP with a Spiess engine. He obviously knows about Kestenbaum so I'll try Don Hardman as a starter but not sure if Dons ever been involved in ARP. I must have driven against the mysterious Mr Ewing at some point in my career. Anybody else like to have a stab in the dark.

Sorry chaps!

Too many typos!

Best official time in the Swift was 1:11.9 sec - I think it was in qualifying last June at Combe for the F3 meeting and so far best official time this year is 1:12.6 last time out.

Certain that its not Don Hardman - he is off in Ireland working at he moment.

Thanks,

Ed

Leave me alone!

It could be Don, because he also did that race on the int'l circuit back in '98, wasn't that the day diana died? But Ed is right, he is away working all this week. I did think he might be stuart Kestenbaum for a bit, but i don;t think he has ever branched out into anything but FF.

I HAve got it I know who you are JR!

Can I have one clue? Are you a member of the BRDC?

Originally posted by edmse
Certain that its not Don Hardman - he is off in Ireland working at he moment.

Cause we all know that they don't have any PC's in Ireland!!!!

Apart from the race cars direct site, is there a good site (with pics) that I might be able to pick up an post 90 Swift of Van Diemen?

There is formulafordsforsale.co.uk or you can call Adam Jackson on 01543459957 because he is selling his RF91, which is a good car, same the engine is bent! You could also try Fastroadandtrack.com

How much does Jackson want for it?
I know of a RF90 that might be available....

I think he wanted 7750 for it, although i think he will struggle, its still cheaper than nel Plimmer's car was though! Didn't Phil Leech have an RF90, what happened to that?

£7,750 sounds a lot but you get what you pay for. David Wandless wants £8,000 for his. I'd have thought a good RF90/1 would be £7,000 tops or £5,000 plus for one that needs work - like new bodywork/engine rebuild....

[i]Didn't Phil Leech have an RF90, what happened to that? [/B]

Wandless car.

I agree, that sound about right 7000, 5500 for one a bit rough. Do you work in motorsport JR?

Look mate, if someone wants to be anonymous I think there wish should be respected....

No offence..

Martin O'Connell?

Ok Sorry, where is this RF90 u know is for sale?

Trevor Stiles Racing down near Brands

How do you think the best FF1600 drivers of today would go in national Zetec?

no more than OK

Surely Peter Daly would be up there?

FF1600 front runners in nationals - they would be nowhere.

If you look at our champs (SFFC Zetec) Chris Pennington won the southern kents a few years back and runs at the front of our series. Our first race at Donnington when the nationals used it as a warm, a young guy driving for JLR walked it - Chris qualified 8th (I was 9th) with the best of the "regulars" being 7th!! So its fair to say we would all be cr@p unless we entered in the spirit of testing every week and spending £100k a year !!

Jeremy Walker

Its a shame, because "back in the day" locals used to give national guys a hard time around "their track". Maybe in a few years when regional Zetec has found its feets we will see a few wildcards giving the nationals some presure?

"Back in the old days" it was much more popular and cheaper for Joe Blow to compete, even in regional championships. You had a lot more competitors and therefore more chance of some talented drivers coming through.( I think Joe Blow these days is relegated to his play station) You also see in the main Championships young drivers who have been Karting (semi pro.) since year dot which has increased the divide between them and the true enthusiust.

..the zetecs are a "wierd" car in terms of getting them to work. I am not sure whether you can get them to go quickly without the huge amount of testing the national boys do. The kents are miles more driveable and easier to get into and go quickly...

eg - Luke Hines raced in our series last year and would do mid 48s at Brands and mid 11s at Snett in our races (on the whole the best of the rest were 1 sec or so slower). He jumped into the JLR car for the Snetterton TOCA meeting and was dong mid-high 9s and was up the front (I think England won both races though).

I know for example to do a 1.16 at Snett in a kent is about the same as a 1.12 in zetec, but a 1.12 is THREE seconds off the national pace!!

I personally think that kents will always be the clubmans series - and the various zetec clubman series will be just that. Not a progression or traiing ground for the future stars. Shame, having race in the COB in the late 80s, it wasn;t that far behind the national level and you had clubman at the front of that series (mssrs Bull, Hall, Heyden etc etc etc)

What an interesting thread I have started here.

I o wonder if there will be a non-regional period class again for these cars. I hope so but if broken dwon by years, RF00s and the like may not be allowed??

Without wanting to blow my own trumpet, A good ff1600 driver can go well in Zetecs.

I tested for Kevin Mills racing in December in his 2001 Zetec car at Donington Park. After a wet morning I set a 1.13.7 lap time on a track damp in places and on old tyres. I believe this was under a second off pole for the juniors and would of been good enough for 2nd/3rd for the regional zetec championship.

I am also pretty sure John Hutchinson went pretty well when he did a Zetec round at combe a few years ago.

Stuart Gough

would love to have seen a race report of Johnny Hutch in a zetec.

Hi. Im thinking of buying a FF1600. Opinion seems varied on which would make the best choice. Does anybody have views or info on whether a Vector would be a wise purchase?

Don’t know much about the Vector chassis. I think you always have to look at what’s doing well at your local circuit, knowledge available to you about setup and also consider the ease of getting spares. Don't think there are many running Vectors so you may have to carry spares around with you, as opposed to running in a Swift, Reynard or Van Diemen where there tends to be a supply of spares at every race.

Vectors are good, very well built cars. They were effectively pretty much the same car from 1993 through to 2000. Spares are obtainable but as Goughy says you will have to cart them round. If you get a good price on the car, I'd say it's worth it - good roller 3,750??

Originally posted by goughy
Without wanting to blow my own trumpet, A good ff1600 driver can go well in Zetecs.

I tested for Kevin Mills racing in December in his 2001 Zetec car at Donington Park. After a wet morning I set a 1.13.7 lap time on a track damp in places and on old tyres. I believe this was under a second off pole for the juniors and would of been good enough for 2nd/3rd for the regional zetec championship.

I am also pretty sure John Hutchinson went pretty well when he did a Zetec round at combe a few years ago.

Stuart Gough

I'm sure you could go well in Zetecs Goughy but I wouldn't take test pace as a forgone conclsuion when the team wants you to pay to race with them...

Also, John Hutchinson went well at a track where Zetecs had - at that time - never previously raced and he was something of a specialist at that track (Combe), so while he did well it should be taken in isolation...

To go back to JR's original question, I would like to add my own experiance, having enjoyed competing in Pre'90 then Superclassic for several years, several factors made me, question the merits of FF1600, these were (in no particular order) rising entry costs, annual engine rebuilds becoming ever more expensive as poor quality components became the norm, no slur on the engine builder but a crank every year and a difficulty obtaining blocks. And the championship being used as one of races at most circuits by circuit specilists pot hunting rather than competing in the entire championship. Since I opted out the championship died and now there is no national FF1600 championship, perhaps the BARC could be persuaded to add a championship for pre Zetec chassis to run along side thier Classis FF championship, and could I suggest that a control steel crank be permitted to reduce engine rebuild costs?

Sounds good Barny - have you suggested it to the BARC. I have suggested something similar and they are responsive. Enough people could make them do it. They don't want to tread on BRSCC toers but THEY don't offer a nationla FF1600 series so it wouldn't compete directly. A differnet club will also dter the pothunters etc.

It’s difficult to know if that’s what people really want. For sure I would have done it this year but I really think FF1600 is now a club formula with club drivers (not to say there is anything wrong with that) with the exception of maybe 10 drivers or so that would like to race in a national championship.

If you look at the North-West Championship I race in while we get good numbers at Oulton, we struggle a bit for numbers at Anglesey as people cannot afford it in terms of time away (they are 3 day events with testing) or money. The championship coordinator has been keen on us racing at Donington too, but the response from drivers as not been great, so we do not race there. The difficulty as always is money, money, money.

I think you must have a point goughy, I have always liked the variety of racing on different circuits, it is all part of the fun, but looking at the grids at Combe & Oulton they are doing something right, travel costs are probably the next largest expense after entries and engine re-builds.

I think there is great potential for a National type event, but it will only work if the entry fee is lowered. this is the only reason grids are so small at places like brands. Combe grids are always large and they pay less for entry. I know this issue is on another thread but to me anyway thats what I think stops alot of people from last year racing.

The entry fee's for the URS FF2000 championship run by the BARC are £135, for that you normaly have a 20 minute practice, 12 to 18 lap races and the use of garages if available, I realise it is supported by URS, but it makes the BRSCC championships look very poor value.

Originally posted by JR Ewing
Forgot to add that the RF00 weighs a LOT more than say an RF90-92 which also makes acceleration poor.
You must remember that the guys running the converted cars are very experienced and qucik and also have top engines/new tyres. They'd all be quick in more 'traditional' cars.

They only weigh 6 kilos more than a 90-92 John the problem with them is you need to put in a 10-31 diff instead of the 13-36 I have strugled to get mine of the line all year so over the winter it will be changed.But saying that I have enjoyed driving the car this year as it is so stable and very easy to drive,this year they have started to be quicker than say the traditional cars we keep finding little mods to improve them.The down side is they are just so expensive to repair.

Originally posted by JR Ewing
Forgot to add that the RF00 weighs a LOT more than say an RF90-92 which also makes acceleration poor.
You must remember that the guys running the converted cars are very experienced and qucik and also have top engines/new tyres. They'd all be quick in more 'traditional' cars.

They only weigh 6 kilos more than a 90-92 John the problem with them is you need to put in a 10-31 diff instead of the 13-36 I have strugled to get mine of the line all year so over the winter it will be changed.But saying that I have enjoyed driving the car this year as it is so stable and very easy to drive,this year they have started to be quicker than say the traditional cars we keep finding little mods to improve them.The down side is they are just so expensive to repair.

you can say that again!!

I did twice Dave.

Interesting that this thread has been resurrected and JR Ewing was trying to stay anonymous in the earlier replies. This was all five months before I discovered the time consuming pleasures of ten tenths, but at least his identity is now common knowledge.

I don't know who he is ?

Neither do I.

:)