FF1600 conversions

I think we saw CONCLUSIVELY at Combe yesterday, via Messrs Mills and Parsons, that converted RF00 and RF01 chassis will never be a match for Van Diemen RF90s and RF91s, and Swift SC92 to SC95s.

The rules for 96 on with regards to sidepods and all the attendant aero drag and weight of these cars will always make them slower in a straight line no matter how much better they corner.

Then CONCLUSIVELY at Mallory park the next day when gavin wills Won the second race bay an inormous margin to Peter Daly's well sorted Reynard, Wills led the first race also but retired because of overheating. Wills; car is also a RF02, not an RF00 as previously thought.

Ahhh, but Gavin is a night and day better driver and is not at the times being recorded in the period 1995 to 2001 or so...

Wills can do 48.6s, not a million miles away. Kestenbaum surely would be of similar ability? he was no where near.

Until people start beating the lap records (Jamie Spence at Mallory is it??) then that car and driver set up is proven to be better. Yes I know they are works cars with works drivers.

Its swings and roundabout really, the older cars have all the setup data and built for the engine and to use treaded tyres, but they are getting a bit old now (repair/materials wise), worse areo, torsional ridgidity, etc.

whilst the newer ones have better drag/aero figures, wider track, better torsional ridgidity, and are fresher chassis (again materials wise). they will suffer from the fact that the cars are not designed to use treaded tyres and there for the setup data is not readily at hand.

In the end it will come down the who has the most money, and who can drive. It would be nice to get a works driver to play in both types of cars and get a true comparison. IMO

I think there is much more to it than that.

I think it depends on the car chassis RF90/01 Swift 92 etc etc, the driver, and how good the conversion is.

eg: if a great driver put in a good laptime in an RF90 and then swapped to an RF01, I personally don't think it would make much of a difference over 1 or 2 laps as a good driver can cope with small niggles. However a race distance and pace is more telling than a "lap record".

Also I wonder how much difference the quality of the conversion, and setup, the newer cars arn't designed for Kent engines or as Tony said treaded tyres.

Having said all that, it was a joy to watch the RF90 and Swift92 battle on Sunday I think if anything it is proof that in the right hands they can more than compete.

I think its more a case of the Zetecs just not being there development wise. I think that very soon they are gonig to start to take large chunks off lap records.Its just a case of adapting the setup to the tires.A new chassis is always going to be better than an old one, over time they just soften up. This is coupled with the wider track and a stiffer chassis anyway.

It must stop because when there is more info availiable and they are sorted you are gonig to have to have one to be competitive. This means that we will have regional Zetec championships running alongside Kent championships, with exactly the same cars! just different engines. What is the point? We may as well have one or the other.

Wills is already going quicker this season in his RF02 than his swift, and its got miles of development to go. I knnow he would be at the front anyway, but thats not the point. It has to stop before it gets out of hand

Originally posted by Tony_Simpson
whilst the newer ones have better drag/aero figures

I'm not so sure about that with the sidepod rules for later cars.

Yes the newer cars have a larger frontal area but with the knowledge that the designers would have gained they should have a lower drag figure.

I expect that they newer cars generate a little downforce with the sidepods (as far as I remember they are slightly groundeffect style), so again it is swings and roundabouts with it all.

Think the pods are a deffo disadvantage, they are huge flat-bottomed barges...

The advances in chassi design, not to mention damping and the gains made elsewhere in the aerodynamics easily outweigh the large sidepods.

I think a point to note is that the class keeps up to date as regards appearance. Old cars tend to look a bit dated and tend to be kept not as nice looking which leads into a downward spiral as far as a professional approach is concerned. Newer cars look better for sponsors (HA!) and engender better preparation.

No matter how careful you are, older cars get flakey paint on the chassis, the alloy parts corrode blah de blah..

I'm not saying it should all be new cars, but don't knock em.

I'm not knocking them at all, I just think the sidepod regs since 96 mean they just can't go that quickly. I think even Gavin realises that it's no quicker than his SC92 but perhaps he's hoping to sell some conversions??

Well round Mallory it IS quicker than his swift was, At Combe he is still slightly slower, but hes onlt tested there once! We need some way to distinguish between kents and Zetecs (apart from engine!). Having the same cars as Zetecs is Bull***t. I tell you what JR, go onto the Vee thread and see if you can pursuade them to start using new FF chassis too!

If Kents is dying, this will not help. Look at from an outside point of view. I can race Zetecs with slicks and 150hp or I can race kents for the same price, same chassis and 110hp!? We need one or the other or have a difference between then, i.e. chassis and engines.

swings and round abouts on the costs.

eg: a zetec engine doesn't need a rebuild as often, however a front wish bone costs 3 times as much as a non zetec chassis. They (for me anyway) are 2 seperate entites, and I am not a fan of the conversions eg: kent cars ended in the mid ninties (so I understand) then zetec became the national formula ford....and cars started being developed for zetec championships, thats where the kent cars should end (on the entry list) when zetec took over as the main championship should be where the kent chassis "class" ends.

If you have a zetec chassis why convert it to kent ??? surly it is easier (and less expensive) to go and race it in a zetec championship ? and there cannot be much pleasure in beating kent chassis knowing you have far better machinery ? I know if I entered a championship and won it (dreams do happen) I would feel a lot better winning it in a kent against kents, than a zetec against kents. I do enjoy this topic there are so many points of view.

Perhaps there should be a cut off date for Kents, say up to 1995 it worked well for a while for the pre'90 championship.

Lets face it Kents are a classic class now keep Zetecs as a seperate class, people can choose which they race.

If we're not talking about races/championships specifically for classic cars then why have a date cut-off for an entire class? One of the options intended for Formula Ford from the start, and still available should anyone wish to try it, is to design/build your own car. :o

Well, it worked for Adrian Reynard! :) :)

There should be a cutoff because the stopped building them! Can you do the BARC FRenault championship in a carbon-tubbed Tatuus?

If someone wants to design a new car, race it in Zetecs!

Whats to stop a manufacturer designing a new chassis just for ff1600?

Whats the point? its not a current championship, to be fair its a classic championship. People do not design new cars for VSCC events do they? FF1600 should be a low cost formual, newer cars raise the game, and the budgets.

So if I write my chassis off, I've got to buy another old one, and not an identical new one? A new model of chassis will cost about the same as a new replacement chassis from say, Swift.

to draw off what i said earlier on this thread, if a BARC Frenault driver bends his chassis, can he go and get a brand new carbon Tatuus?

FFord is supposed to be on relativly equal terms, new cars make a mockery of this.

Having rich people come in and dominate this way is madness. Gavin Wills spent 20k on his conversion, which was a brand new 02 car from VD. If we use the same chassis in Zetec as well as FF1600, kents will just die because there will be no point in racing the same cars with less power, which are more expensive to run.

Not only this, its a sporting aspect, do you enter stock hatch in a brand new Focus RS against 2.5GTIs, gofs etc? of course not, because its not sporting. People like this must be stopped, these new cars are giving them an easy loophole.

Every single S of Mids 'Kent' Driver wants it to stop. Similar in fact to the mono guys wanting a certain team manager to take his works car away.

Is gavin' really an 02. I can't see much point as he'd have to retrofit 00 uprights and brakes and the chassis are almost the same anyway.
Has he got £20k then to invest? If so, he MUST be looking to do conversions for punters to get his cash back.
I have the idea that it was not quicker than his 92 but he might need to try a bit more to make it appear so...
I don't think we should make any age caps as, contrary to some opinions, FF1600 is not a classic class and, if it becomes, so that would be the beginning of the end of it.
I still think the cars are no quicker than VD 90/91 and Swift 92 to 95s but people must relaise that the newer cars are run with the highest budget, the best engines, and the best drivers.
KartingDad, Mr G?, I think you should check the cost of a new Swift chassis (£2,500??) to a Van Diemen Zetec one (£5,000?)...

Formulafordster and JR Ewing,

I have very similar views to yours of these cars are a different "class" to the RF90's and SC9X's etc however, myself being quite inexprienced I was missing 1 vital factor which was pointed out to my at a race this weekend. FF1600 NEEDS new cars coming in... if it doesn't get new cars coming in then it will become a "classic" series. Which as JR said it is not. I understand that the price of a lot of the zetec parts are coming down due to the national championship using them for 1 race then throwing them out....in a few years I suggest the market will be flooded with parts unless VD do something VERY different. This does put a slightly different slant on things, especially if the serires is to stay alive.

I would also like to know where Kartingdad shops as to pick up a swift for 2.5K and a zetec chassis for 5K seems a real bargin. I could use a shop like that for parts.

In Australia, we are still running the Kent engined cars, and the latest truly competitive chassis we have here is a Van Diemen RF01... this model was built by VD with a special update kit especially for the old Kent engine, and have won the national series here last year, the year before and likely will this year as well.

The rich kids, and those with talent seem to have a mindset here that the latest cars are guaranteed to be faster... having said that, there is a racing team in Western Australia called Fastlane, who have taken a VD RF94, and put a wide track front end on it, and the car is substantially more stable, and faster to boot....

I guess it depends who is preparing the car, and the talent of the nut behind the wheel... just like any motorsport

I shop at Swift. Check out their price list - new chassis, painted, £2850.

If people start trying to make it an 'economy' class, are we going to limit tyre to say 3 sets per season or something equally as daft.

In general, the faster you want to go, the more money it costs. If you want to run at or near the front, the class is so competitive that you almost always have to go that extra mile, spend those extra pounds, take that extra time in the workshop to get there.

I suppose a good driver helps as well, but if he hasn't got the equipment, he's fighting a losing battle.

Originally posted by kartingdad
.......
In general, the faster you want to go, the more money it costs. If you want to run at or near the front, the class is so competitive that you almost always have to go that extra mile, spend those extra pounds, take that extra time in the workshop to get there.



And you'll never be able to stop this. The best you can hope for is a class where the rules make the return for extra cash very small, so the talented racer on a low budget still has some chance of success.

Darcy M
We're talking bare chassis costs, not cars or rollers here.
The Oz spec '01s etc. are different and run narrow pods which are not allowed in Europe. Initially, I think, Jadlam ran them but were forced to change to the wider pods last summer...

Originally posted by darcym
Formulafordster and JR Ewing,

I have very similar views to yours of these cars are a different "class" to the RF90's and

I don't think I do have that view. I don't believe the newer cars are quicker really...

The only way to tell is by one driver with a purely objective stance doing a proper back to back test with some decent mileage, not just a hop in and I'll give it ten laps.

I think that FF1600 has only ghot a future as a classic series.

Answer me this:

What is thpiont in Zetecs and Kent using the same chassis?

But the chassis are the same, just as the pre-2001 (pre-monococque) F Renault cars and older FF2000s were the same too... It's just a bit of framework with someone in it. It's the rest that makes up the difference, bodywork, suspension, wings etc..

There is no point in running Zetec and kent championships together surely? If the front running cars are the same model!? They will look more or less identical! Kent has a place in motorsport, but as a classic series surely? If the front running cars are going to be the same, except for the engine, then people will choose Zetecs, and kents will die die out. We already have a series for these cars. There are many Kents availiable, we don't need these 'sportsmen' in their new cars.

Wills IS quicker than last year, and his car is de-valuing oldercars, which, in 2 years will not be able to compete with these cars, which are in the same class.

I have to admit, after speaking with a few more experiened FF1600 racers at the weekend, I am changing my tune to the fact that the zetec class chassis should be welcome in FF1600, what about if I was to make my own chassis designed for a 1600 engine and abiding by the regulations ? (this is the argument that got me) would I be allowed and right to enter.....yes, so why not allow the Zetecs in the are the next progression of a Formula Ford chasis, they use the same engines as the kents, the same wheels and treaded tyres, in short the abide by the rules so let them run. As time goes on the price will come down (I am told it is doing already) and Rf90's and the like will be less and less common and for example the RF01 could be the "Car of choice" or perhaps even a Mygale chassis ?? If they abide by the rules....let 'em race. JR thinks they are not faster, and a couple of weekends ago, parsons and mills beat a few of these cars, it is doable. For all the arguing this is the only real response..... at one point a Swift 92 would have cost the same as an RF02 and been leading edge ??

Its a good point, What narks me is that it makes a mockery of those who try hard in there 90-92 cars.

More to the piont its never slow people who get these cars to get them nearer the front, its the people who should have moved on a long time ago. Mallory Park is a small pond, and Gavin Wills is a big fish, an RF02 is a bigger tail fin!

JR, y does he have to change his uprights etc?

You cannot moan that people are spending lots of money on new cars if you had the choice to buy a b reg merc or a brand new one what would you choose? New rf02 are good for the championships, if u took them away u would have even less cars out there. I think you should be able to run what ever new or old every body has the same options its not like theres only 3 rf02 for sale . all you need is the money

Originally posted by formulafordster
Having rich people come in and dominate this way is madness. Gavin Wills spent 20k on his conversion, which was a brand new 02 car from VD.

ah ha ha ha ha haaa ha :laugh:

Gavin rich? 20k?? dont beleive all you hear in the paddock. Hes never had that much money - he bought two F1 Simteks for less than half that. Sorry just dont beleive that story.

Where is Swift nowadays btw? still with Coopers?

I got it from a pretty good source, I wouldn't expect him to lie about that, Havoline have put up a bit of money for him this season. Still with coopers as far as I know. Gavin may not be bernie, but he is rich by FF standards. His RF02 was NEW from the factory. Theres a fair chunk of your 20K

Why can't zetecs and 1600 use the same chassis? its only like any 1600/2000cc classes currently racing anyway.
If 2 classes/more cars use the same bits, then surely costs can decrease for both classes.

As far as I can see from the majority of posts on this thread, people seem to be afraid of the unknown or are looking after their patch or investment only, rather than looking to the long term viability of a particular class. I suppose the same arguments were being bandied about 10 or 15 years ago each time there was a major change in chassis design. As in life, look forwards, not backwards!(Unless your'e going sideways).

I think you'll find Gavin's car is a 2000 zetec chassis converted - I shared a garage with them at the start of the season and his mechanic talked mt throught the conversion process. Also, have a look at the back of the chassis - I think you'll find its the same as the 99-01 series and not an 02-03 series.

Also, costs of conversion (are not cheap) but not the levels some are talking of. I know of several 2000 cars you can buy for around £5k and then it is somewhere between £3-4k to convert them (depending on how good you are at wiring etc) - You then need to add a engine. As good 92 V-Ds are going for something like £8k complete - this is not massively more expensive....and you have a fantastic resale value as people all over the world (eg NZ/Aus/US/Canada etc) all want the latest spec V-Ds in kent form. Without sounding harsh, I think people should just accept the new cars will refresh the whole kent scene (who knows if they are quicker or not) due to the fact that new-sh cars are now availible.

for the record, I am prob going to convert my 2001 zetec over to the kent at the end of the season..

Good points JNW.
I don't think it will cost that much to convert, certainly not an RF00 where you can use the Zetec brakes and uprights. Gav's car is most certainly an RF00 but perhaps it was an old chassis that he bought new and cheap from VD in 2002?
Strange how people just don't want Zetecs and the situation is only likley to remain the same when the current Zetec engione is phased out next year. Zetec cars will have nowhere to race hardly and FF1600 conversions should be had in their hundreds.
Perhaps this can help with a King of Kents National Series which I'm sure is what the likes Wills, Cottrell, Adlam, Moore would like to do anyway...
It's also surprising that nobody at Oulton, an FF1600 hotbed, has committed to such a car...
Finally, recent rumours suggest that the BRSCC are considering doing something about these cars and I think time will tell and maybe the BARC could be thinking of an FF1600 series too?

IIRC Gav's RF88/9 and Swift SC92 were acquired at favourable rates from the respective factories for the express purposes of him winning Combe championships and highlighting the cars to potential customers, which he did. I also recall an offer from VD around the end of 91 to get a VD for 92 for Combe but he decided not to, and then they repeated the offer a year later but got topped by Robin Webb at Swift, hence the ex-works (Mcauley??) Swift 92 that won the Combe championship in 93 and Kent festival in 94.

Dont forget Gavin beat people like Mcnish and Higgins in his 1st year of junior FF - he was a potential international level racer at that time.

If he IS so good, y doesn't he just move on? or will he be out of his depth elsewhere?

ten years ago maybe - dough-ray-me I'm afraid!

why the hell should anyone move on from FF1600?? The racing is stil the nuts..I raced FF1600 90-92 and we always had to race against the older guys who were good enough but hadn't had the breaks to make it further up the ladder - its part and parcel of the game. Do you think Ayrton Senna was bleating on about the age and experience of Rick Morris, Jim Walsh etc etc....

Originally posted by JNWRF01
why the hell should anyone move on from FF1600?? The racing is stil the nuts..I raced FF1600 90-92 and we always had to race against the older guys who were good enough but hadn't had the breaks to make it further up the ladder - its part and parcel of the game. Do you think Ayrton Senna was bleating on about the age and experience of Rick Morris, Jim Walsh etc etc....

I hear ya there! Bob taught a generation at Combe, and similarily someone musta taught him (the visigoths? team genghis khan?) :laugh:

Originally posted by ghinzani
I hear ya there! Bob taught a generation at Combe, and similarily someone musta taught him (the visigoths? team genghis khan?) :laugh:

altho not all the lessons will have been good.... :(

The reason why these people don;t move on is thay are afraid they can't cut it elseware. Do they do home to ther wives and say, yep won another one in the class I have been racing for 15 years in my car which is over ten years younger than everyone, with my 3 mechanics by my side?

Originally posted by formulafordster
The reason why these people don;t move on is thay are afraid they can't cut it elseware. Do they do home to ther wives and say, yep won another one in the class I have been racing for 15 years in my car which is over ten years younger than everyone, with my 3 mechanics by my side?

I take it you got beat then? :laugh:

Originally posted by ghinzani
I take it you got beat then? :laugh:

I take it you don't have a constructive answer then?

I take a kicking off these cars on a regular basis (and many other non-zetec class cars) however it would be very good to beat one, very satisfying.

I do get beaten 40% of the time. Beating one is ace, but its still winds me up that these pot hunting dads in better cars come and play with amateurs. Beckham doesn;t play in a sunday league team, because he likes the scene!

Why don't you just try a bit harder?

Better than that, I will convert a Zetec, oh thats right I forgot I don;t have money to burn, also I cant aford to crash it because the parts are more than twice the price, Never mind Gavin will have fun going round on his own, I will rind Eddie Irvine to see if he wants to join in, like an '87 FF reunion!

Originally posted by kartingdad
Why don't you just try a bit harder? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

F'Fster - without sound patronising, I would get someone to coach you who knows FFs - its the cheapest way to beat newer cars and will cost you a lot less.

I think most people who race FF1600 are not doing it for anything else apart from enjoyment - it is the best racing bar none - and most of them could cut it at a higher level. If you took away people like Stuart Kestabaun where would FF be?? Motorsport will never be fair or equal..

...also, whilst you keep on bleating like a little girl - look at Jonny McGall - turns up in an old shed of a motor and nearly wins the FF1600 festival.

The nature of the games is that it is all things to all men...drive a little quicker..

uh-oh!

I don't believe the newers cars are quicker, but ewven if they are we are talking a tenth or two - if you're seconds off the pace you need to work on yourself and the set-up before switching chassis.

An RF86 can do sub-49 at Mallory, well set-up and well-driven with no problem...

Keep trying Fordster, when you've been at it a few years you'll be amazed you ever struggled at all...

I agree with JR there marginally quicker by a small fraction i've seen certain drivers in old rf89's keeping up with newer much newer cars with good drivers and beating them. to me its satisfing turning up on a low budget and a pre '90 car and keeping up with high budget teams. And i think people dont move out of FF1600 because it is so much fun and a hobby not a career.

Surely the idea of FF is that ARE faily equal. Wills' fastest lap is 3 tenths faster than last year, so far he has gone quicker at every round.

Richard has the key point. From what I am reading there are 10ths in it, and beating a car which is better machinery much be a great buzz, more so if it has a good driver in it.

Scince I started racing FF1600 I can honestly say I don't think I have had as much fun (ok some races are dissapointing) but thats part of the fun of it "being cheated" out of a position (or in your head at least) or crashing out when you swear you where on a hot lap etc etc.

Speaking to a couple of more experienced people this w/e has really changed my view on this, I still think people set them selves up for a fall eg: "He only won 'cos he was in a zetec chassis" or "he should have won...he's in a zetec Chassis" but I understand and appricaite more the costs, benifits to the series, benifits to the racing and how much / little difference they make. The fact that this thread is happening and the thought (or sometimes lack of it) behind the responses is a good point and proves how alive FF1600 is and can be. I doubt there would be a thread that said "RF90 - wins again" with this much debate.

Fordster, might be the car or might be he has more confidence ie its in his head. only he knows. If you believe you will go faster chances are you will. If you cant join them beat them.

Also it depends on driving style - if you like chucking the car around and bashing wheels and kerbs get a rocker car like a Reynard ff82-whenever (89?) or a Van Deimen 85-89 or Swift DB3 - 91, - but on the other hand a VD 90-92 or a Swift 92-95 is more of a finesse car but ultimately quicker over one lap... but the big but here is that FF isnt about being quick over one lap, its being able to fight and pass other cars.

A certain driver turned up in a 95 Swift last year for the last 4 rounds of the northern series.

He won 3 and came 2nd in the other. He was still on his novice plates. When his engine went to be rebuilt in April (after 3 rounds) rather than it being a 'cheater' as paddock gossip allegedly had it, it was in fact so tired it cost £2500 to sort.

As I said before, just try a bit harder and get your driver to think! For instance this season this same driver blew his start in the wet and dropped from pole to about 9th or tenth by Old Hall. By the end of lap 2 he was second.

I always say to my driver, "if Senna could get the car round faster, why can't you?'

I'm not trying to blow a trumpet, but it's nearly always the driver, not the car.(Within reason).

That'll be your son then, will it?

It all sorta points that way doesnt it!
JR do you ever do any work? or are you on call from work constantly like me? the oil business never stays still....

JR - bad guess, it was me mum in disguise!

LOL.

Most people seem to agree then (with some exceptions):

The newer cars are not that much quicker, if at all.

The newer cars are good for the class longevity and serious credibility of the class

Most people don't want these to become another 'period' class

Anyone with half a brain loves FF1600, including spectators

FF1600 has the closest racing you can get

Originally posted by JR Ewing
LOL.

Most people seem to agree then (with some exceptions):

The newer cars are not that much quicker, if at all.

The newer cars are good for the class longevity and serious credibility of the class

Most people don't want these to become another 'period' class

Anyone with half a brain loves FF1600, including spectators

FF1600 has the closest racing you can get

Next to karting :p

Thats another point.
The Zetec cars with the wider sidepods make it less likely that you can interlock wheels and provide better side impact protection which must be safer for all concerned.

If every one agrees JR why was the pre'90 championship succesful untill they allowed later cars in?

Thats got nothing to do with it. On that basis the pre 87 championship at Oulton would be full......but it's not.

I did say most people Barny.

I'd love to see some good, thought out alternatives suggested by those 'anti' people...

In starting this thread I realise now that I looked 'anti' myself but I am not. Nor am I particularly 'pro' - I am just pro FF1600 in general as I belive it to be the best racing there is, full stop. I love owning a car for which there is a race somewhere in the country pretty much every weekend if racing takes my fancy...

I have been reading with interest all your comments and JR seems to have summed it up very well.
As i caused this problem introducing the new cars i would like to put over a few points.
I bought a new KENT 1600 FF car in Feb 2001 from VD ,Not a Zetec conversion.It is quicker in the right hands than a RF90/92 OR swift 92 but they are 10 years old it would be interesting to compare against a newly manufactured 90 car.We all use the same tyres ,engines, total weight and regs .We have massive side pods.
What i like about the cars, safer, easy to work on, look fantastic and lovely to drive.We have had some success with this car because it was driven by the best drivers.
We have so far converted a further 4 cars, 2 which are being exported to Australia ,the chassis is the same for either Zetec,kent, USA 2000,the main difference being in engine mounts,so far the newly converted car is not quite as quick as the original car, yet!
If anyone is interested i can supply update conversion kits to convert existing cars the cost varies depending on how far you want to go.We paid £5000 for the Zetecs we have converted they were in poor condition like most of the Zetec cars racing.So it is not in the region of £20000.
Kent racing will go on for another 30 years plus how long the Zetecs?Kent racing represents better value for money hopefully if we can get the national series running next year more new type cars will be out there. i agree have a different class say post 97 year,this will include some very fast Ray cars.The King of kents has been well supported, and at Brands later this year the number of Kents will easily out number the zetecs.If anyone wants ant info please contact me direct. jadlam.racing@btinternet.com

Nice one, and good info. Thanks.

One thing that does concern me that we have seen in the King of Kent races is too many classes, like pre-74, pre-81, pre-90 and post-90.

Adding another would be negative IMO.

Too many classes tends to devalue the whole thing and make sit like Monoposto or something where 80% of drivers get a trophy. Fun in some way, but competitive racing NOT and deeply satisfying NOT.

If enough cars came out to play,we could have 2 races similar to what they do at Oulton!
The BRSCC's competions manager John Ward organised the mini series King of Kents. Quote "this series of races is a half way measure for 2003 and depending on the demand and the response for these events the BRSCC may look at the posibilty of making this series into a mini championship for 2004" So please contact John and express your feelings and commitment for Kent racing for 2004.
01732 848884 john.ward@brscc.co.uk

Today. In Autosprout, Swift Cooper are going to do £3grand update kits for Swift 92s and 93s to counter the evil of the dark empire (late model VDs).

now that is interesting news. I wonder what that entails.

Bodywork ? wishbones ? etc etc. I wonder if it will change the cost of parts as there are likley to be an excess of parts at the start of this idea.

Originally posted by JR Ewing
Today. In Autosprout, Swift Cooper are going to do £3grand update kits for Swift 92s and 93s to counter the evil of the dark empire (late model VDs).

I'l do it for 2k! I've still got the CAD designs somewhere on floppy...

So its your fault the Swifts ar so slow? (Only joking!).

Would a VD01 Zetec converted to 1600 be competitive?

I am not for or against the idea of conversions etc, but I think it would be good if there was a championship catering for the older cars only, then people have a choice, either race against cars of similar design or go and play with late cars. As has been said ealier, the early chassis are getting tired, so they could race on a level playing field.

Dont get me wrong I have raced an beaten (occassionaly) far later cars run buy teams, and have had a great deal of satisfaction from doing it.

I too like the whole Kent scene, but do you realy think it can last, gven he age of the engines, Fords lack of support etc. as a current formula, it is like F1 running the Cosworth DFV.

Originally posted by kartingdad
So its your fault the Swifts ar so slow? (Only joking!).

Umm no I just worked on setting up the design office when it moved to Plymouth - blame Mark the designer.

bailey?

oui

I'd say the 92 and 95 Swifts were very good cars, the 93 , 97 & 97 not so good at all!

Interesting, Ghinza, I've always thought the 94 the pick of the bunch. The 95 is the same but just a bit heavier. Your thoughts?

yes you can see I wrote that in a hurry as I wrote 97 twice and 95 instead of 94 - apologies!
so its 92 & 94 good and 93,96 & 97 bad! 95 pretty good, won British Champs after all.

kartingdad had better sell his 93 and 95 then.

remind of the differeneces between the 94 and 95 Ghinzy

All things considerd what would be your preferred choice of FF1600, considering performance, ease of set up, maintenance etc?

Swift SC94 without question. Also a bit roomier than RF90/1s if you're not jockey sized...

Now ur askin - I was only involved from 96 onwards but from what I recall mainly bodywork and IIRC some things like wishbone dimensions but a lot of those Swifts were surprisingly interchangeable - sometimes I think manufacturers only change cars so that they can sell people new parts, not to actually make them go faster!

There was a fabricator there called John who came down from Chesterfield with Swift and he had an almost photographic memory for Swift parts going back to DB3's etc - any time I couldnt i.d. a piece I'd show it him and he'd know it straight off.

Have you ever seen the original FF Dave Bruns designed, I think it was called an ADS (?) over in the states - it came out in the late 70's and its just way ahead of anything else at the time - you can also see the Swift lineage in it but I think it was like twice as much as any other FF available at the time.

We did a few 96 Kents - the first one went out to SA for Thomas Scheckter and I think he kept stuffing it 'cos I took lots of spares packages out for transportation to SA!

ghinz, I am intrigued at your thoughts about the 92 and 93 Swifts, cos I have always been under the impression that they were pretty similar, the main difference being the strength of the chassis, the 93 being a bit stiffer. Tell me more.....

zetec or kent? customers always preferred the 92 to the 93 kent as it was too much of a man for the job, whereas it maybe was'nt quite all that for a zetec
compromises I think were made as it was the 1st zetec and nobody really understand quite how pendulumous the zetec lump would be

I'd go for an absolutely spot on set up RF86 with the best engine i could afford, and hope for the best...........

good the 86.

Best ever VDs? 90, 86, 89

I'd say the 85/86 from a looks point of view, but an RF90 black bomber would run it close - 89 bit ugly really compared. Then again I thought the RF84 was pretty....

it was compared to the RF83

Originally posted by ghinzani
Then again I thought the RF84 was pretty....

Are you wearing Ross Brawn's glasses???:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Originally posted by Séamas M.
Are you wearing Ross Brawn's glasses???:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: quality, haha! Then again I must be because I thought Dave Coyne and Gareth Rees were very fair and sporting when driving FF cars...:laugh:

I've always wondered why people at Castle Combe and Oulton seem to go mad for Swift SC93s when I always thought the SC92 better and the SC94 and SC95 much, much better.

I think the Swift 95 seems ok!

My esteemed opinion is that a Swift 94 chassis built up as a 95 is the best FF1600 overall and I can't see the wide pod new cars matching it as it had pretty wide track even then, 5'9" or so...

JR how do you mean an 94 built up as a 95, also how are they to work on, can you change the engine without removing the gearbox, and are they easy to set up?

really easy to work on, why would you want to change the engine the hard way, and yes, dead easy to set up.

The SC94 was, I think, such a good car that they had the old problem of having to make 'improvemnets' to sell loads of new chassis the following year. Mainly small changes - some worked, some didn't but veyr little difference.
The cars are substantially the same but the 95 chassis weighs more than the 94.
Hence, you can take a 94 chassis and put all the later spec suspension on it and it will have the best Swift handling with the lightest weight.... but we're not talking a massive differnece here at all.

I also seem to recall the cars as being easy to work on as being quite spacious and wide when compared to the lovely RF90...

As KD says, why would you want to try to take the engine out without rolling the back end off??

Thanks for the info KD & JR, I got used to taking the engine out of my Reynard so simple and quick, compared to my currenet Van Dieman were you have to remove the entire rear end ,split the engine from the block and then having to check the set up on completion so more difficult and time cosuming especialy single handed in a small garage.

Just reading the different points of view in this thread its the most interesting one I have found.

I think this year will show how the conversions compare,I feel lucky to have one we shall see.

i think i might make my own car, follow the regs and whip yo' asses............... or would that be unsportsman like


i also picked up on the fact that someone in that thread seemed annoyed that peeps were hanging around too long in the series, instead of moving on up the slope, maybe not everyone wants to, and you cant tell me the appearence of folks like Gordon, Mularkey, ocasionally Neild etc, somehow detracted from the series, just because they had been there a while........ i doubt they do, simply because they make it more competitive, if no one got a jump on the rest of the feild, how would people improve, remove the carrot and the donkey stops....

Only if you drive a Lada lol...

that was written last summer, the early parts of this thread, fast forward to the end of the season and the zetec conversions werent quite as earth shattering as first invisaged, with the older cars still easily pulling there weight (or lack thereof compared to some conversions) will be interesting to see how much extra time there is when the zetecs get themselves dialed in

Originally posted by formulafordster
I think its more a case of the Zetecs just not being there development wise. I think that very soon they are gonig to start to take large chunks off lap records.Its just a case of adapting the setup to the tires.A new chassis is always going to be better than an old one, over time they just soften up. This is coupled with the wider track and a stiffer chassis anyway.

It must stop because when there is more info availiable and they are sorted you are gonig to have to have one to be competitive. This means that we will have regional Zetec championships running alongside Kent championships, with exactly the same cars! just different engines. What is the point? We may as well have one or the other.

Wills is already going quicker this season in his RF02 than his swift, and its got miles of development to go. I knnow he would be at the front anyway, but thats not the point. It has to stop before it gets out of hand I dont know about large chunks but over the season I can see the 2000 cars coming on a bit in all the different regions.

It looks like a lot of newer cars running at the sharp end in australia.

Has any one heard when the Swift update kit is ready and what has been changed?

Originally posted by blue nose
Has any one heard when the Swift update kit is ready and what has been changed?

Wheel spacers to make track 7ft 6.
Should be about 4 seconds quicker and ready 'any day'

I expected it to have an extra two wheels fitted at the front?

I had a good look at the RF04 Kent today its a nice car. The new PI dash looks interesting and very easy to read at a glance.
The two off them will be out at the weekend it will be good to see them together on the track. Are there any more 04s out this year?

yes George McAlpin has bought an RF04 Kent to contest in both mondello and kirkistown

After a good test in Rf00 today I went quicker than my old Swift,considering the seat time I have had in the VD (just two days)compared to five years in the Swift.
So in my own opinion the conversions are a step forward at Anglesey,I am hopeing Oulton will be the same.