FF1600 new rules for 2004?

A rumor spreading about the ff1600 faternity is that rule changes for 04 have already been agreed!
These changes have been led by a coombe regular (ED)and consist of
a)min weight of car to include driver at 500 kilos ( wonder if that might help the heavy zetec conversions?!?)
b)a class structure of
pre 74
74-81
pre 87
pre90 (note no introduction of a pre98 class as requested by regular runners - funny that!
c)A tyre chioce of acb9 or acb10 and dunlops for pre74

what on earth was wrong with the standard ff regs - the converted zetecs conform to the regs so thats fine why change something that isnt broke, 1600 works because its simple and one of its main attractions is the level playing field a choice of tyres is stupid either acb9 or 10 but not both - all this has obviously been driven to favour zetec conversions by people that dont know or understand what 1600 racing is all about - lobby your organisers to realise this before its too late

I don't want a Pre 98 class - I want to race against the zetecs ! so no problem with the classes.

where did you get this information ?

I'll ask Ed about it on Saturday

Will be interesting to see what he says about it,
I assume this is to accomodate 75kg drivers, maybe is would be best to leave the rules as they are as in only weighing the car, this might encourage some drivers to the gym!? as I said it will be interesting to see what he says!

Bill

classes seem to be sensible &in line with kok, pukka kent cars are designed to run at 420, they will only really benefit with heavy drivers, it does seem to favor the conversions who incidently i welcome as a breath of fresh air. Tyres need to be one spec though , maybe it is time for a change, the Avon ACB 09 does last longer,is cheaper and better in the wet.

ive heard a similar rumor let us know what ed says

What's the problem?

Current regs say 420kg for the car. This is hardly fair if you then have a 17yr old driver of 55kg against the likes of myself (90kg plus kit). An overall weight is better and will allow lighter cars like RF90s to be EVEN more competitive. 500kg for car/driver sounds MUCH, MUCH better and fairer.

The tyres is to allow more people to run, ie. if your car is in Euro or Historic/Classic ACB9 set-up you would be able to run it without buying new wheels, tyres and having a totally different set up.

The class structure seems fine. I'm confident my Swift SC 94 could beat a post-95 car (Zetec) with their very wide pods etc. The only thing I'm not sure about is a pre-90 class and a pre-87 class - seems a bit close together and the 89s are damn quick cars anyway.

Perhaps they mean Combe will stick at pre-90 and the others will stick at pre-87. Are these regs for some sort of National series?

So, what's the problem?

Roll on the 500KG rule! Im 6'2" and weight 85kgs, so that will help me know end!

Originally posted by vd man

b)a class structure of
pre 74
74-81
pre 87
pre90 (note no introduction of a pre98 class as requested by regular runners - funny that!


What about the 91, 92,93 kent engined cars then??? Surely a pre Zetec (94 the year they changed) class is needed for the slightly newer cars.

rumors seemto be true - co ordinator for NW series has had contact from someone from SW centre who will co ordinate all ff championships next year! AND - ALLOY CALIPERS AND DAMPERS WILL BE ALLOWED NEXT YEAR Only need 4 grand to "upgrade" my 2 84 reynards my 90 VD my 93 VD, just shows what happens when the cider sets in thanks SW!

So John Hutchinson and Ed Moooooore were having a good race at the Carnival this weekend, what year Van Diemen is John driving? does this show that you can give one of these newer cars a good race with an older car? goes to show what a good driver can do in an older car!! all this rubish about rule changes and these newer cars being too fast and unfair, just frickin drive faster!!

Matt

yea mattray i agree but why change the rules, the current conversions conform to the current regs and thats fine ,they have made a lot of effort to conform and i take my hat off to them,they set themselves up to be beaten which makes great racing , i am not against racing them at all just rather it be to FF rules not some mono/ZIP type of nonsense dreamt up by someone with no understanding of the ethos of FF.

I agree with everything above - esp the weight changes - but keep the alloy dampers and calipers out of it. THe free dampers have ruin Zetecs (the big Zetec teams have damper technicians). Just keep the rules as they are this season - allow a free choice of tyres inf you want - and ammend the weight (500kgs is fine).

I do have a vested interest - having spent a fortune in new bits to make my 2001 V-D in full kent spec (ie steel everything!)

Everything seems fine to me in FF1600. The older cars and newer cars are equally competitive. The weights (and tyres to some degree) seems common sense, but ALLOY CALIPERS AND DAMPERS.

What **** thought that up?

Will they still ban dampers with remote/seperate reservoirs?

Prob is JR - is that as soon as you can get ally dampers made up with internal reseviors you are talking £1100+VAT per damper - as quoted to me from Mr Ohlin.

The whole point about FF is that its meant to be a club spec series. If people, like me, want to convert a zetec then we should spec-down our cars and not make the 99% of FF owners spec up to Zetec. The only person who who ebenfits is the guys converting their Zetec. Pointless.

Or Mr Mick Ohlin?

Originally posted by darcym

where did you get this information ?

I'll ask Ed about it on Saturday

Well Darc??

I harldy saw Ed all weekend, I spoke to him once in passing as he was lining up to go out to the grid, and due to getting ready myself that was a short conversation. Bottom line is I didn't ask him, due to not seeing him.

However he does read the board I am sure he'll chirp up.


The question for me is...."why change the rules at all" it seems to work so well as it is. Convert the zetecs to kent if you want, but leave them the same spec, leave the tyres and weight alone...I am only saying this because of how close and fair the racing seems at the moment, the cost is acceptable. Why break a winning formula ?

You must be slim!

I agree with darcym leave it alone it is a proven formula and works well. as for the weight thing, no one has ever moaned before, if your tall and built wide then i can understand but dont think rules should change when a gym membership would help. and if you dont fit in one race another formula? i just think if it aint broke.....

You must be slim too RMR!

The wieght thing is a good idea surely as it equalises, equalises drivers and potentially chassis. Some older drivers would not hit the weight limit if they lived at the gym.
If you were quick but beaten by an eight stone teenager I think you would then agree...

In the past I have questioned if Zetec converstions are in the spirit of FF1600, but as mattray says above, Ed Moore and John Hutchinsons battle proved how evenly matched these cars are, great race, shame the way it ended.

I agree leave the calipers and dampers alone, but the combined weight limit will make the racing even more closer and won't cost anything.

I have been known to eat a pie or too JR....so not that slim.

2 points, which have been touched on.

1.) the zetec conversion against the kents, after an interesting conversation with a zetec converter earlier this year, I am now of the opinion...so what, John hutchinson and Ed had a great battle...the end. Ed converted his car to kent spec and they where matched well be the drivers. For me this shows no reason to change the weight.

2.) Bob Higgins is 6ft something and won championships and recently did a few come back races and got second ??? Gary Marsh is 6ft something and no feather weight (bad wording) and won the combe B class championship in an RF88/89 (can't remember which car)

there are a couple of other drivers who are not what I would call Hugo Boss models around the gut area but they race well, so I am not sure that the weight change would make a massive difference, and just cause more headache setting up the car.

With that in mind I don't really care about the weight rule, I would just rarther see it stay the same, because of how well it seems to work currently.

As long as the actual "Kent car rules" stay the same I don't care that much about the weight.

would not call hugo boss models, that should read.

I am turning spell checker off it never works

Do any other formula (apart from F1) weigh car and driver?

I don't think the weight is a big issue but I do think it's fairer and will cost nobody much money.

Apart from that leave it like it is. Changing brakes, uprights and dampers is a joke!

I do wonder if these changes are designed to bring out more cars and encourage more Zetec conversions. This makes me wonder if the BRSCC are mistakenly confusing their current lack of 'customers' with a lack of chassis?

Originally posted by Barny
Do any other formula (apart from F1) weigh car and driver?

Yes. Like Monoposto, 750MC, BARC etc. etc.

Agree totaly JR on all points, do the BRSCC never take thier head out of the sand?

Originally posted by JR Ewing
Yes. Like Monoposto, 750MC, BARC etc. etc.
BARC FF2000 weigh car without driver

re; URS FF2000 - alright, but plenty do and it seems common sense in a club formula.

Thanks for your agreement/compliment!

Yes it does make sense, the reason I asked if many other formulas do weigh car and driver, is that if it is becoming the norm, FF1600 might as well fall into line with the rest.

Keep the FF1600 regs the same.
The only reason i can think they want to change the regs is so that Zetec 01/02/03 can be converted cheaper , at the moment if you have a RF01/2/3 you need to change all the uprights to fit steel callipers total cost £2k!!!!
I think the rule 420kg car min,driver 75kg min, would be great.a few years ago we did some back to back tests at CC,adding 10 kg lead, cost 0.2sec a lap.Surely the only guys who can change the rules are FORD,does anyone know or is it all rumours?

10kg = 0.2 seconds! i cant believe its that much.

can show you the data Rich
10kg = 10 bags sugar or 10lt fuel
i've never sent a car out overweight, maybe the driver!!! just spend time on your car.Make sure you do a good job on the Swift.Also why are most of the very quick drivers small.eg
MR,JF.DM,JH.

fair enough.
yeah will do, cheers.

blimey on my maths that means some combe front runnedrs could do a low 1.10!

interesting facts Jon. agree with you on the 75kg min driver weight if it was going ahead.

Zetec's have always run a car+driver weight limit - as I am hardly Twiggy or a Hugo Boss model, I think this is the only fair way to go. We have guys in our series who are 8 stone - so if 10kgs is 0.2sec then that is a huge amount of time lost before you even go racing. The "go down the gym" arguement wears a little thin I think.....

How do we get the BRSCC to assess the level of support for a weight change..??

Working on that theory how much os a differance would alloy dampers & caliprs make, or is there another advantage other than weight saving?

Ed and the Hutch had agreat battle at coombe john is no more than 60 kg drippin wet if the weight min was 500 he would have to add 20! yes 20kg to his car, when you bear in mind his car is an ff1600 and was designed to the regs why should he suffer an the conversions benefit?
Has any one taken into account the safety implications if a heavy driver further lightens his car to be closer to 500kg, scruts will have to be on the lookout for missing tubes and paper mache chassis - or is that just the quest!

I don;t think the idea is to benefit or punish the conversions or otherwise...I think the idea is to level up driver weight a bit more...I have always thought that Caterham have the best idea - and that is to weigh all the drivers at the end of the season - take an average and then make that driver weight for the following season. Could be easily done for the KoK at Brands or Silverstone in the coming weeks..

I perfectly understand it is difficult to add 20kg to a car (and there are soome safety issue also) - but it does level up the playing field massively.

Keep minimum car as it is 420kg ,only change min driver 75kg .

I am sure the BRDC are reading the above with interest!

We had this (mass) debate in classics a few years ago, with almost a 50/50 split on going to 500 Kg inclusive (the split depending on whether people thought they would gain an advantage or not). But in the end, we thought it was FF1600, so stay at 420 Kg car only - the simple solution. I agree there are safety implications if people are encouraged to keep taking weight off the older cars, on a budget !

Out of interest - how many people would agree to 420kg car and 75/80kg driver min weight. To be honest if you are less than 75kg you have a damm sight more amounts of places to add lead or a heavier floor etc etc.

For the record I am happy for 420 car and 80kg driver min weights.

JNW, I think you will find most people are happy with that, except the 'little ones' who are say only 60 Kg !

I agree with JNWRFO1 keep the min car weight at 420, a min driver weight of 75/80 will not really make any impact so is hardly worth doing, my main concern is that it seems nobody of any note has been consulted about major changes.

I think I am missing somthing here!
if we keep the car the same at 420kg then everyone can leave the car alone.
But
If we have a minimum driver weight of 75kg do I have to carry 25KG in my pockets???

I doubt that 10kg makes 0.2 secs a lap, it may do with the same driver driving the same but line up 5 drivers all weighing 10kg's more then the next, all capable of equal lap times, I wonder if you would find 0.2 between them?

If they want to make it car plus driver to allow for a driver to be 75KG then fine I will put a bigger battery in a heavier floor and probably a bit of lead under the seat, then I will learn how to drive it with the extra weight.

John when you did this test did you change the set-up at all when you added the weight? ie. spring lengths on the front to get rid of the droop, ride height at the rear and damper setting to speed up the re-bound with the added weight??

Matt

sorry I meant 15KG in my pockets not 25KG I aint that light!!

Zetecs have a minimum weight including driver or 525KG
So I guess your saying keep the minimum weight of the car at 420KG to stop people doing silly things to lighten cars if they are 90KG drivers.

sure whack it to 500KG's including driver, I cant see many people having to change much, I will be happy to carry more weight , I bet you will find the people at the front are the same and the people in the middle are the same and yes those at the back are the same!

Matt

Just to clarify - in Zetec the cars have to be 450kg min (which is not as easy as you may think to get to) and then the driver element is 75kg. You get weighed with and without the car - and they did keep a log of drivers weights.

I totally agreed that the people at the front will still be the same - and it really won't effect that many people - but it will just level the playing field for everyone.

If Kents do go this route - you can add 8kgs just in the tye of calipers you run (we have had to change to the smallest to get the RF01 down to the weight) - so am happy to sell the heavy calipers!

For the record - the rumours of Ginster Pasties and Walls Pork Pies sponsoring my car for next season are unfounded and untrue!

Originally posted by spearce
We had this (mass) debate

Very good!

On a FF1600 theme, check out otem 2436612985 on ebay.

Any more news on the Swift 92/3 update kit, will they be using it in anger at the FFestival ?

They are still claiming it will make a 'significant' difference with a smoother body and wide w/bones.

I can't see it myself as the body can't be much smoother whne you are using the same chassis (!) and the suspension will just me nore like the 94/95 surely.

At £3,000 a go, the cynic in me (never far from the surface) has to wonder if this may be 'utilised' to fund the updated 2000 year model Zetec they are supposed to be running next year??

Yes, I can't see them selling many kits at £3k a time either, lets face it that's almost 50% of the value of the car. They'll need to use a very quick diver to show it off!

Basically £3000 is pretty much the conversion figure for a 2000 Van Diemen from Zetec to Kent. It is not the price for a 2001 conversion though!! Ouuchh!