Nw Thumbs Down To Ff1600 Regulation Changes Fror 2004

THUMBS DOWN TO FF1600 RULE CHANGES FROM THE NORTH WEST

At today's Oulton round, the drivers and team principals in the Opal Telecom North West FF1600 Championship held a meeting to discuss the proposed regulation changes for 2004. This meeting was also attended by BRSCC Officials and a representative from the scrutineering world. It was agreed to present the feelings of this meeting to Steve Burns at the Festival, for further cosideration by him.

To this end, the following "petition" was raised :-

WE, THE UNDERSIGNED FF1600 DRIVERS AND TEAM OWNERS, THOROUGHLY OPPOSE THE TECHNICAL REGULATION CHANGES WHICH ARE PROPOSED FROM 2004, REGARDING THE ADOPTION OF ALLOY DAMPERS AND BRAKE CALIPERS.

WITH REGARD TO THE WEIGHT LIMIT, THE REGULATION SHOULD STAY THE SAME, AT 420kg, CAR ONLY WITH NO ALLOWANCE FOR THE DRIVER BEING MADE.

WITH REGARD TO THE USE OF AVON ACB9, ACB10 AND DUNLOP TYRES, FURTHER ENQUIRIES NEED TO BE MADE BEFORE A DECISION CAN BE MADE ON THE TYRE TYPE.

###############

53 Drivers and Team Principals were approached to sign the petition. 51 did so, the other 2 were in favour of the all up weight limit, but not the rest, so refused to sign.

That is 96.23% opposed to the changes from the largest regional FF1600 contingent.

So, as many stated at the meeting, IF IT AINT BROKE, DON'T FIX IT

I was there and Diz is right.

Once you start introducing tyre choice, if you want to be competitive, you will have to ensure you have the optimum tyre for all conditions. As far as I understand, different tyres have different diameters, so to swap tyres, you will also have to swap ride hieghts, gear ratios blah de blah.

A lot of these changes seem to me to be to having spent a let the heavier Zetec cars get on the pace. Well I appreciate that having spent a few quid converting a car that wasn't built to the ff1600 regs comply, you'd want it to be invincible. But to try to get the regs changed is absolute farcical.

I am 100% behind evolution of regs in a sensible way, and yes, fine, run a 01'Swift by all means. But don't try and get the rules changed to disadvantage the 100's of competitors who are happy with the racing they have, and the traditions built up over decades just so you can run a 'hybrid' car.

As far as a Zetec car being too heavy, well thats nonsense as well as I understand it, a certain 01 Van Dieman is right on the weight limit anyway. Fantastic work and preparation. So no need to change the weight limit.

To add the equivalent of one and a half cylinder heads in weight to a non Zetec car is impractical and dangerous.

Blathering now, but I am sure you get my points!!

Thank you for the interesting information. Unfortunately the Midlands do not have a race until 2nd November.
Does 96% represent a majority?

Well it does from the N/west championship. I cant think that the Midlands guys are that much different from the good looking northerners! Can't vouch for the lager sipping southern girls tho! (only joking)

Oh by the way, why would a team with a 1600 car want to swap to ally shocks and calipers? So they can buy more lead?


I don't think so.

So are the resons behind wanting to change to Alloy dampers and Calipers to enable Zetec conversions to A)get down to the correct weight or B) to make the conversions costs cheaper?

Apart from the weight advantages are there any performance advantages to be had by changing the dampers and calipers to alloy ones?

Matt

I was there at the meeting too. All I can say, is that if the reasoning for allowing alloy shocks and calipers is to keep the cost of Zetec conversions down, why? Anyone that can afford to buy a Zetec and convert it can at least afford 4 steel bodied shocks and 4 calipers. I heard today though that it isn't that easy. I believe the calipers on the Zetecs are unlike the AP ones for the 1600's. They bolt to the uprights differently, hence, the uprights need to be re-engineered on the Zetec. I dare say this would push up costs. Anyone who know Formula Ford will know that if one person buys these shocks/calipers, everyone will have to buy them.

Same with the tyres. Are we going to have to carry multiple sets depending on weather conditions????????

It's not only multiple sets of wheels and tyres, but different ratios, and you will need to change your ride height setting as well as far as I am aware.

Please, please, just keep it simple, as the class was always meant to be.

Sounds good to me. The one thing that will come out of this that always comes out is "You can't please all the people all of the time". Why don't the powers that be just say that there is one option tyre for all forms of Formula Ford 1600. I know lots of people will have to make changes, but one controlled tyre for all will do away with a lot of hassle and mis-interpretation.

The only reason i can think they want this rule change, is for the SFFC 1600 regs for the last 2 years they have alowed alloy callipers & dampers in their regs.Why i don't know.

What exactly is an 'ALLOY DAMPER?'

Is it the insides or is it the casing. If the casing, where the **** can I buy a steel one today as they are all alloy!

I'm also certain that some cars running in the NW series have alloy cased dampers.

Mond you, one car is an RF96 with narrow pods which is NOT allowed either.

For the record - the Zetec conversions. By allowing ally calipers allows a cheaper conversion for the VD 2001+ - as you don;t have to swap the uprights. But the 2001 car also has the floating discs. I ended up swapping uprights, calipers, discs, and wheel studs - not a cheap job.

THe weight limit is achievable with some clever engineering, good (new) bodywork and a light floor.

I would be very happy to have an inclusive weight limit - but think its madness to start allowing ally calipers/dampers etc etc in a CLUB series.

JR - Avo make steel bodied 2 way adjustable dampers.

Avo on an FF1600??? - nothing like a bit of quality engineering!

Whilst conversion cost may be cheaper for a Zetec car, it would then conversley add costs to a Kent car, with the added hassle of adding lead. Fantastic idea.

Still confused - what is an alloy damper? Casing or internals?
What 92 on Swifts run steel casings?

Has to be a steel casing

Hmmm, Who runs late Swifts with steel casings then?

Ours does.

You must be one of few.

Its only because steel ones make the car faster than ally ones, but don't tell anyone.

Any requests for changes must be fully investigated and reviewed before being written into the regulations. It is through forums such as this that a large number of opinions can be expressed.

Rest assured that the final regulations will be representative of the majority of drivers. I look forward to hearing from as many competitors as possible in order to obtain a balance of opinion, and was dissappionted that I could not attend the meeting at Oulton Park last Saturday.

Hopefully, we can all work together to produce a set of Technical and Sporting regulations that will allow FF1600 to continue long into the future and provide enjoyable, competitive and cost effective racing for everyone involved.

well as long as the final decisions ARE based on the opinions of the majority of drivers.

I would expect COMPLETE transparency before any changes are made, and not hustled through to massage someones ego as seems to be the case with other championships.

If the BRSCC are really keen to promote larger grids, they could always try reducing their entry fees.. LOL!!

Eibach also make steel shockers and before anybody moans about getting steel calipers they are off the shelf at Questmead.
Steve, nice to hear you are prepared to listen to anybody , i am sure by the end of the weekend you will be fed up of the quote ;- "it aint broke" perhaps more than 5 mins doing the job might have been helpfull to earn a little respect and trust from competitors before you re invent the wheel

keep it clean and polite!

Hear hear Dhart who ever you might be (laughing to myself)

just one of the 51 signatures at Oulton! LOL glad your not going to Brands - ive run out of valves!!

I know, I owe you some anyway + your master switch. Have you got a spare engine 4 sale, ours has got a hole in it now!

Its a long winter something will turn up,if anything comes up i will call you,sounds like a complete bottom end though Boldy will sort it - just leave your cheque book with him!

Anybody fancy a drivers meeting at Brands this weekend? It would be nice to put faces to some of the names.

Ole JR can wear a mask, if he is determined to maintain his anonymity.

Nice to see Steve Burns is now a 10 tenther

And my shirt!!!

There are many manufacturers still making Steel Shocks. You can still contact SACHS in Germany. They are still producing them and if you know anyone that has any worn ones lay around (I can name one person that has about 4 dozen of them - don't ask me why - he doesn't throw anything away) they will service them for you. Back to the AVO's, they are a very good Shock. They may be cheaper than most, but at no quality drop off. In fact, when Gary Jones won the Oulton championship in his Swift '92, I believe he had Avo's all round.

The thing about FF1600 is that they are developed to the nth degree, why start chucking extra variables into the pot? It can only detract from driver performance as people play 'catch up' to latest technology.

Keep it simple folks.

If Steve Burns is reading this

Why is changing the rules even being considered ?? what has prompted this ?

there have been some good grids this year.

My real cost this year was testing. I managed to run 1 test because it is just silly at over £200 for testing.

The cost of running the car was lower in general, and without the help I use I could get that down more, however I can't get testing fee's down.

Something else for the pot.....

I heard a rumour that the Swift '92 is getting a retro development for next year. If they start chopping and changing rules, does this mean that the team who have done the development work will be out of pocket as the enhancements might prove to be a waste of time?

don't think so as the swift kit was supposed to be designed for this year, so it should conform to the current rules, and therfore not be wasted.

If people will buy it at 3K per go, is another thing. rule change or not.

£3000????

That's a bit steep.

There is an update kit for the Swifts to bring them up to 95 spec I believe.

If you think about it, 1995 was the last year of FF1600, so therefore those cars were the culmination of years of development.

Zetec cars had a different set of parameters to work to (heavy, tall engine etc.) and to reverse engineer them to 1600 spec is cherry picking on design tweaks.

Well, thats fine by me, but don't change the 1600 regs to accomodate the zetec conversions.

John Loebel showed what can be done at last weekends Oulton meeting in qualifying, so why change the regs?

You could argue that 'cos of the 'superior' design of the Zetecs,(which is why people are trying to convert) the ff1600's should be allowed either reduced weightor the zetecs to run with a weight penalty to compensate for their 'inferior' chassis design.

Well, that's going to happen, isn't it? NOT.

just leave it alone.

the zetec/swift/rf90 racing at combe this year was fantastic.

Correct.

Diz,

what the heck have you started here? Clearly cake shortage syndrome. (In joke I'm afraid!)

Hello Kartingdad

Why mention cake in this thread?
It is however mentioned in Walshy's new thread Car vs Car

Regards

Diz {easily recognised by the buttercream around his lips}

Is the car designed for the championship or the championship designed for the car?

Leave it alone the cars are designed for the championship under the current 1600 regulations, if people want to get a car that is incorect for those rules then it's their problem to sort it so it complies. If this means they have to spend thousands then they knew that when they bought the car, or at least they should do.

Matt

perfectly articulated matt, monoposto caters for the type of racing these changes would encourage - it aint broke!

I see you've managed to get your caps lock off dhart!!! LOL

do you think this thread will make any difference to the BRSCC's intentions?

Perhaps a few emails to John Griffiths might be more benficial. Of course, if you are really desperate/ thick you could try the MSA. HA!

Any proposed regulation changes are only considered when they are requested by the competitors. We have been asked to look at the possiblity of allowing alloy components and combined car/driver minimum weight limit by a number of drivers (not fair to mention names). As organisers we have a duty to investigate any reasonable request, but the final decision of course must be in the best interests of the majority. The majority are certainly voicing their opinions, which is great and will enable us to provide an informed answer to those who have requested the changes.

Steve:

Weight changes = common sense.
Alloy dampers = who cares, like it will make any difference, if cars down South have them then lets keep 'em.
Alloy calipers = ditto dampers, although I have some reservations about the effects of a reduction in unsprung weight.

Steve, I understand your reluctance to name drivers, but how aboutbeing specific on numbers? It could be only two drivers that have caused this furore.

I'd like to add my comments to this

I see these proposed changes being aimed at two areas:-
1. To allow easy transfer between different championships
2. To allow easy and cheaper integration of Kent engined Zetec designed cars

My feelings are that we have:-
1. Perfectly good, time proven national regulations for all pre Zetec cars
2. The Zetec problem is separate and so is the solution

I race a pre 87 car and I am concerned that any potential changes will involve extra costs and work which need not be necessary. I don't want to have to change the standard spec to be competitive or have a variety of tyres to choose from, I want a control tyre for the class. (It might be hard but if you want to compete in a championship you need to comply - not change the regulations to suit all possible variations. If people want to run with small changes do they have to be eligible for championship points?)

We have recently seen the effect of uncertain regulations on entries. The Opal Telecom championship that I am in is popular and successful so I don't want to see this spoiled. I would like to see the 2004 situation cleared quickly and any changes being left until they are properly sorted out - to 2005 if necessary.

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but I just thought you NW chaps would be interested to know that a petition was being touted around the Brands Hatch paddock yesterday requesting that a driver weight limit be imposed for next season in FF1600. Figures quoted were 420kg car weight and minimum driver weight of 75kg. Does this mean that the North/South divide has been decided even before a wheel has turned in anger??? Over to you lot then!!!!

No

I have details of this counter petition.
Funny how some names signed the NW one against, but now are signing Ed's in favour. Mind you, the NW one was weight and alloy bits, not weight alone.
On the alloy front, all were opposed

strange how selective things are....i was at brands all weekend.....never got asked to sign ...for or against....but then this whole joke of trying to change whatis allready well sorted has been started with just a couple of people with god knows what for motives....no i dont think we the competitor have been asked or informed ....as allways we find out here first.....just who are these people requesting the changes and why....something that seems to have been started for just a few then brought to the attention of the majorty smacks of deciet.... it aint broke so dont go there..........

Hi all,

Just to let you know that the petition was available to sign yesterday and I have to say that it was hard for me to speak with everybody and sorry if you were not asked. I had limited time on my hands. But for your information this is the text that many people agreed with:

Proposed Car & Driver Combined Weight Rule

Currently under discussion is a combined car and driver weight rule, which may be implemented in 2004 for the Formula Ford 1600 class. A meeting was held at Brands Hatch with the BRSCC, various team owners and interested parties on October 18th. It appears that a few individuals are very keen to obstruct this rule change that is designed purely to make racing fairer for all.

Under this proposed rule, the car will still have to be 420KG or more, but the car and driver combined weight will be either 495Kg or 500KG. The idea of this rule is to make a more level playing field for 'average and heavier' drivers when competing against much lighter, smaller drivers in a low power formula.

It is important to remember that FF1600 is about fair competition in relatively equal cars. The light weight drivers have a considerable advantage at the moment (0.2sec per lap per 10KG at most circuits). This situation does nothing to encourage the more mature newcomer into racing FF1600.

'I agree that a car and driver combined weight rule would be fair and good for the future of FF1600 and should be implemented in 2004.' END


I have to say that I have never been in favour of changing FF1600 at all with regard to technical regulations, but have always felt that the weighing of car and driver would be fairer for all.

Best regards,

Ed

I can't see what you guys are all wound up about anyway. The changes to the weight / alloy technical regs, would be just as equally unchecked as the engine capacity and cam lift/profile is at the moment. I know a "FF1600" that pulls 7500 rpm and he still hasn't been caught out. No point in having Tech regs that aren't enforced.

I was thinking about this last night and how many front running drivers are actually under 75kg? i can think of 2, how many overall??? is there anyone specific that this is aimed at.

Lardy people with a lardy Zetec!

yeah but if only a couple of drivers (unless there are more?) weigh under 75 then whats the point of it? most people weigh 73kg + anyway. thats what i mean is there anyone specific this is aimed at ie, light drivers? unless im missing something? just interested thats all.

Good point insider, lets seal a few engines & diffs.
On the weight issue you are right Rich most of the guys are 75/80 and signed for 75kg some were slightly under ,it would not make any difference to them,they all want a level playing field thats why we race FF1600.The only guys who would not sign were the really small guys or their mates.If it does not make any difference to performance, why are they against it?

Looking at what most people put on the petition said they wanted 80kgs for the driver, this is 12.6 stone.

So a fair amount of drivers would be affected, and would result in a more level playing field, just what FF is all about

The lighter drivers, of which there are quite few actually, would have to go and buy lead to put into their cars.

Where do you put say 10kgs of lead where it is safe in the event of an impact and doesn't upset the handling balance?

If the Zetec drivers are so concerned about it then they should lose weight from their cars. It can and has been done.

If I was to convert a Zetec, I would do it in the knowledge that it would be diifficult to get it down to th 1600 weight limit, not complain that my car was too heavy and so can we change the rules please to help me!

Perhas the weight limit should be raised for zetec cars as they allegedly handle and have better traction. Now THATS unfair surely?

Just for info KD i have converted 5 zetec cars and they all come in 419/425 kg .So where do you base your idea that zetec conversions are heavy?

So is it 75 or 80? i never saw it or was ask to sign one so i dont know?

I'm also interested on the point kartingdad raised about where to put the weight. ok you could install a bigger battery but mine is aleady a 30, so where would i put the ballast safely and would scrutineers be hot on this to make sure it is safe. i suppose lead under the legs is best?

Theres a few places, I have lead behind my seat, bolted through the floor under my knees, and a load more bolted in the nose box.

KD its not about Zetec drivers complaining, its the ones who think its unfair that they have a disadvantage to others because they are heavier.

It is no big deal carrying lead in your car, and there are loads of places it can go, of course it will affect your handling at first, but you can adjust the setup to improve this.

Oh well, I was wrong then. I thought the zetec cars were heavy. Thanks for putting me straight.

Still, I dont see why I should have to buy lead to help heavy people. Perhaps they can buy the lead for the lightweights then, after all, it's for their benefit I suppose!

i'll start a petition with you k'dad!! anyone over 80kg chips in for lead for us 'lightweight' <12st :)

Originally posted by kartingdad
Oh well, I was wrong then. I thought the zetec cars were heavy. Thanks for putting me straight.

Still, I dont see why I should have to buy lead to help heavy people. Perhaps they can buy the lead for the lightweights then, after all, it's for their benefit I suppose!

Lead isn't that expensive KD! This is nothing to do with cars, its drivers.

Why should someone who is 15stone have a disadvantage to some one who is 10stone, merely because of the way they were born or the way they are built? I take it that Stuart is less than 12.6 is he?

Originally posted by kartingdad
Still, I dont see why I should have to buy lead to help heavy people. Perhaps they can buy the lead for the lightweights then, after all, it's for their benefit I suppose!

I've got a sack of spuds for you to use anytime kdad.

Stuart who?

Gough

I never told him kd!

Never heard of him - are you sure its not JR? Mind you, I just notice he's offered me his brain as ballast!

If you used my brain you'd be well overweight.

It seems to me that the people who oppose the drivers minimum weight are the ones who will have to put ballast on their cars.

Its either because:

You do want to loose the advantage you have?
or
You can't afford the lead?

Which one?

i'm still confused to who we are refering to with this advantage? which drivers are so quick because of the weight? who's against it also?

Don't get me wrong there will no be a big advantage, as John A said, about .2s for every 10kgs, but it will level things out a bit, and most people seem to be for it.

KD is against it.

I'm just awkward - perhaps the heavies should go truck racing. LOL!!!

I think it would just make it a more even formula, and it won't hurt.

Originally posted by kartingdad
I'm just awkward

No!?

Don't want to pay for ANYTHING which decreases the performance of the car, and which also is yet another thing which puts lap records and such farther away from reach.

You might as well say as well as being heavy, i'm also old and those light young drivers have much better reactions than me and better eyesight, so they should have rubber steering columns and wear fuzzy glasses. Oh, and the light young drivers are generally skint, so as I'm a rich old person, have some of my money.

What I'm trying to say is where do you draw the line with natural abilities and attributes. If a driver wants to move into a different class he won't have the nanny welfare state that is the FF1600 to mollycoddle them.

Far better to enforce the rules you have without putting new ones in place. And let me tell you, once you start trying to factor in a drivers weight, there will be alls orts of problems, such as different scales, don't go for a wee before you race, don't sweat during a race and don't scare yourself too much either...

Just stop messing with the rules please.

Don't want to pay for ANYTHING which decreases the performance of the car, and which also is yet another thing which puts lap records and such farther away from reach.

You agree weight makes a difference?

Uneccesary weight does. Where do we stop?

There's always been heavier drivers, so why cjange it now?

I mean, poor old JR has just stated that his brain alone would make us 'well overweight'. So perhaps a lobotomy might help him....

if your aim is to make it a LEVEL playing field, as you say then the only fair way is to take the weight of the heaviest driver and have everyone ballast UP to his weight....just another change for change sake it aint broke

So overall, those with midget drivers want to keep their weight advantage unlike the main pro Formula Ford.

Hopefully common sense will prevail...

Actually, it's those with drivers that train and keep their weight down to be as competitive as possible want to keep their advantage that they have worked for......

Or those who work hard in the office all day to pay for their racing, and can berely fit the gym in?

KD - that is a very small minded view....nature dictates people are all different shapes and sizes....lucky you that you were born smaller than average!!

......or indeed both your sons are, or have the time to spend all day at the gym.

JNWRF01 - never saw any RF01 FF1600s at Brands. What happened?

Jr - so here's the story - spent 3 months waiting for conversion kit to turn up - give the car to JA to put together - get to the point of fitting the exhaust (the last part pretty much) they have sent a FF2000 not a FF1600 exhaust!!! So to the back of the queue again!!By the time I race it there will be a pre2002 class!!

Both my drivers are 6'2" tall actually. They don't spend all day at the gym either.

and how much do your sons weigh?

Thats a bit personal isn't it?

Not really, are they above or below 12.6?

If you would like This weight allowance for the driver, please email Steve Burns @ BRSCC.
If you like you can just paste this to save time.

Dear Steve,

I would like to pledge my support to the proposed change of rules regarding weight in FF1600. I would like there to be an 80kg allowance for the driver, to give a more level playing field.

Kind Regards
You

His email is steve@brscc.co.uk

80kg! thought it was 75?

One the petition it gave you the option of both, if you would prefer 75, change the email to 75, although I think 80 would be more realistic.

ah right i see, was never ask to sign it so didnt know that.

I think they had trouble geting round everyone, but if you email Steve Burns it will have the same effect.

I went looking for you 3 times rich to get you to sign,your team mate Matt did not sign.

I read with interest - and have been asked to point out:

If ballast is run it means all we will do all day is queue at the scales.
The only way for this to work would be to have scales in the pitlane (F1 style) and weigh cars during practice as well!

Do people want to sit in the scrutinnering queue for longer periods of time at every meeting?

The cars are weighed after each race anyway. Monoposto have shown that it can work in a club series.

In fact it should speed things up as all you will need to do is drive on and off the scales instead of getting out of the car for it to be weighed.

Hasn't this weight issue been discussed enough now, there must be more worthwhile things to talk about ............

We will still have to get out of the car as its an 80kg allowance, rather than total weight.

All you need is some scales for the driver to stand on when he gets out!

No time lost at all.

Dreaming.

I'll think you'll find out next year if you get to Zetecs Mr Kdad that you'll have more to extend your grey matter than this.

In actual fact what happens, of course, is that a driver is weighed, kit on, at his first race and the scrutes then note what min weight his car should be for the rest of the year.

The list is published to competitirs and if there's any protests they simply reweigh...

Hardly rocket science is it?

knock it on the head the rules have worked since 1967 it's
probabley been the most succesfull formula ever' stop trying to wreck it and let it go down tubes with all the other failed formulas.

Explain to me whoever you are how having a weight allowance could wreck the formula?

I certainly hope so, I've been falling asleep for the last 5 pages....

Mind you, I've still son MKII to race in a 95 Swift next year. Seems like I could be a bit busy.

Still, should be worth the weight....haha.

PS Why does everyone take this forum so seriously?

well said spearce,Steve Burns post "2004 BRSCC FF1600 Championship" surely puts this to bed, it has been agreed to run the current Ford motor co ff1600 regs with no variation, we all (wether we like it or not) now know the regs nice and early for 2004 , those wanting weight changes have a full season to lobby and put their case forward

So if theres no problem why change it ??????????

So the Combe and SFFC runners with alloy calipers will have to remove them then?
Thats bound to please them, especially with the SFFC only getting half a dozen entries or so.

JR, maybe just maybe its because of the spurious reg's that SFFC "only get half a dozen entries or so" ??????

Or maybe they are all too heavy....(too many jellied eels and shandies) and can't get in a car.

maybe it because it cost 190 quid. wish as much effort went into petitioning entry fees as it did this weight thing. i want more people to race whether their 60kg or 90kg

JR I think you will find that Combe forbid alloy calipers. As far as I can see, Steve Burns has made the issue amazingly clear, the regs remain the same as present at every circuit bar Brands (SFFC) and surely this forum should now be consigned to the history channel, unless there are some insomniacs who require night time entertainment to aid their sleep....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I think they should change the weight and I run a F3 car with 30 kgs of ballast in so It cant be that hard to put 10 kgs in, any one thought of running a bigger battery or even 2?

am I not correct in thinking that if the minimum weight rule is altered it has to be with the approval of Ford Motor Co? if this is the case, would this not have to implemented world wide?

Originally posted by verglas
JR I think you will find that Combe forbid alloy calipers.

Yeah, apparently they used to though and Brands copied them but Combe then dropped it. God knows why they were ever allowed and I would not be in favour of allowing them but, playing devil's advocate, if those who've had them on for few years are not likely to want to change and, unless theyt use the internet, nobody will likely ever tell them of the change anyway.