Toleman TG280 (and Lola T850 & T860)

Further to Dan et al seeking info on the Ralt thread
Here's what I have so far on Toleman's F2 cars

This is largely only 1981

TG280
01 1980? 1981 Carlo Rossi
02 1980: Henton 1981: Sewi Hopfer
03 1980? 1981 Spirit: Spare car early season
04 ?
05 1980? 1981: Jim Crawford

Unknown number
1980: Docking: Rothengatter; 1981: Docking: Spare car

1981: Chris Cramer

TG850
01 ?
02 Spirit: Kenneth Acheson
03:Spirit: stefan Johansson
04?
05: Guido Pardini
06 Freddy Schnarwiler

Any advance?

Chris

Chris etc

I suspected this one might start soon ??

Without any research at all, I guesstimate there may have been 7 TG280s made in 80 - perhaps 5 for works team, 4 used as F2, the final one as a test bed for the Hart F1 engine. Plus 2 for Docking Spitzley (DS) in 1980. Chris, when you refer to Spirit, do you mean DS, as the Wickham/Coppuck Spirit team didn't start until the winter of 81-82.

Works ran Henton & Warwick, all year, DS ran Huub originally, Stohr joining later. I think Colombo's Sanremo late season 80 car was ex-works. Possibly one other driver in one of the DS cars late on, only guessing on this.

In 81, most of the TG280s were sold on, Cramer/Crawford/Hopfer etc, Lola built, perhaps another 6 T850s. One to Sanremo for Pardini (Colombo ket his TG280), one Schnarwiler, possibly 3 for DS, (Acheson + Johnanson). IIRC DS used a 'TG280B' at some point in 81, maybe an ex-works 80 car, perhaps an updated T850.

For 82, a variety of these cars were used again, some to US for CanAm. The DS cars were, I think, re-christened 'Toleman DS1s', for Tassin, Rossi.

Any more info, I stress this is 'off the top of head' stuff !!

Chris,

TG280/10 was underneath Jim McGaughays' Lancia 037 GT car, quoted as ex-Cramer. I think 09 was also used on the hills aswell (Peter Kaye / Godfrey Crompton?). I think 09 was in anAutosport advert at some point, I'll see what I can find

Godfrey Crompton reputedly had two ex-Henton TG280s on the hills in 1981. One was driven by Chris Cramer, and became the McGaughey Lancia GT, the other, said to by #5, was driven by Crompton himself and Peter Kaye - later Ray Rowan and Terry Clifford into the 1990s

I can just visualise Chris rubbing his hands in glee with all these different threads going solving all sorts of querys.

Toleman TG280, actually entered as TA 280 , HU-2 was with Peter Williamson at the Australian Grand Prix for Atlantics at Calder Park Victoria November 7th. 1982.

The car was on a new local Liston / Fisher tub following a fairly impressive accident earlier in the year at Oran Park.
However Williamson was at the 1981 Australian G.P. Nov.1981 , and whilst no. ch.no. recorded it is the same car.

Bryan.

Bryan, the HU2 no implies the Willaimson car was a Lola buiolt one, rather than a 'real' TG280. I'd seen it described as a Toleman T860, is the FAt version of the 1981 T850 F2 car. Any more info on this one?

Dan.

What do you mean any more info.???
If I presume correctly , what happened to it.???
Sorry I should have advised that the car is still here, and has never left.
Paased to Ken Shirvington , who still retains 2003.
Have I answered your question.

Bryan.

Bryan

Thanks for reply, what I meant was, do you know whether the car was built by Toleman or Lola, ie a T850/860 or a TG280. You said you thought the latter, but the chassis no implies a Lola car.

After a bit of gleeful hand-rubbing I thought I'd throw my bit in on the Williamson car - which seems to have been a T850 because it's described by NZ Motoring News in the Calder report for 1981 as being ex Rothengatter. But when in 1981 did Huub get his hands on a TG850? [I don't have F2 results to hand]

Chris

Chris

Don't think Huub ever had a T850. In 1980 when he was at Docking Spitzley, he had a 'real' TG280, alongside Stohr. In 81, fro memory he had a private March 802, updated to 812.

So if the Wiiliamson car was ex-Huub, it can only have been a TG280. I still have it described somewhere (can't remember after this time!) as a T860. Does anyone have Lola records to tell us how many of these were ever made. Again from memory I recall rumours that Lee-Davey was looking at one for UK 81 Atlantic, which never happened.

So if none went to the US, its possible the Williamson car was the only one built, or if this isn't a Lola, that no proper T860s were made. I realise the difference twixt an F2 and FAt was minimal by then, but for the sake of accuracy...

Huub drove a TG280/T850 in a Japanese race in September 1981. Acheson drove one, may have been this one, at the next race in November

Having just looked at JAF's site, Rothengatter & Acheson used the same race number(26), but since my Japanese translating isn't too hot generally (OK, it's non-existent), not sure about entrant/type.

I own TG280/01 I bought it from Alberto Colombo in Milan in 1985 he was then doing 3000 with a pair of March 85B's and my car was painted silver doing over head shots for watch commercials on Italian TV . It was the car on the front cover of Autosport in Feb 1980 when Stephen South was pre-season testing at Goodwood ( He then took a Mclaren contract, crashed a Can-am car and lost his leg from the knee down ) So Henton & Warwick went on to finish 1/2 in the 80 F2 European Championship my car was the spare up to August sold to Colombo who drove it himself and rented it to a number of mostly Italian rent-a drivers, it was still doing F2 in the 83 season - so both the first and last Toleman to run in F2

Richard

Fascinating, what do you, or intend to do, with it?? How was Colombo to deal with, I always rated him as a very good midfielder in F2 from 74-82-ish. Cars always very reliable, almost 'un-Italian like'. Is your car in good nick, I gues there are few places it can run these day competitively, ie not really BOSS material, too young for Historic F2. Is it in Toleman colours or SanRemo ?

As an aside do you know what South is up to these days, I'd read that he wants to put his racing career behind him completely, and is a little bitter about how it ended for him?

Colombo's race shop was a sectioned off part of the family factory which manufactured chrome wire wheels for mopeds - by the million ! We dealed through an interpreter who when asked what the last 5 mins gabble was all about " oh he said yes " So a bit difficult to say really but they all treated us very well and appeared charming. When we went to Monza something must have been lost in translation - they seemed to be under the misaprehension we were F1 "Talent Scouts" and fell all over us with hospitality.

We met the Benetton racing finance manager who asked us who they should sign for '86 - Berger or Patrese ? we both said Berger.

The car is original and perfect in BRG I've been waiting for a historic series for this era of cars - which has never turned up.

I think you summed up Stephen South's position perfectly

Hi.

I am fully out of my depth with these cars , however while trolling for Brabham info. I came up with Autosport Feb. 7-1980 , with a big feature on the new Toleman TG280 and advises 4 to be built , with one kept for development and testing.
Also the article advises an RT2 [ modified ] was used in 1979 ? to test the Pirelli tyres and other Toleman ideas.

Don't know if above is a help or not.
Bryan.

Bryan,

That is all quite correct.

From Motor Sport December 1980 pp1896,1897,1905,1906.

This table reproduced from p1906.

Chassis produced All TG280-Hart
C1: Original prototype and separately maintained test car. Sold to Alberto Colombo.
C2: Derek Warwick's race chassis, scheduled for sale end of 1980.
C3: Docking/Spitzely team, driven mainly by Huub Rothengatter of Holland.
C4: Most successful chassis for Euopean Champion Brian Henton.
C5: Team spare chassis, fully race prepared at each event.
C6: Docking/Spitzely for Italian Siegfrid Stohr, winner two championship races.
C7: Black, sold to Japanese private customer complete.
C8: Constructed for Ford Germany and Zakspeed to test suitability of 1.4 Zakspeed turbo BDA (developed from Capri German championship engine) and delivered to Harold Ertl.
C9: Turbo development chassis for works to accommodate Hart turbo motor.

The article notes that the works cars had completely revised suspension during the season but the Docking/Spitzely cars remained unchanged.

There's nothing helpful in the article about the RT2s.

Allen

So that seems to give us:

C1: Works 1980 - Colombo 1981 - Hinton 1985. Retained 2003.
C2: Works 1980 - Hopfer 1981 ...
C3: DS 1980 - DS spare 1981 ... ?Can-Am ...
C4: Works 1980 ...
C5: Works 1980 - Crawford 1981 - ?Crompton ... Rowan/Clifford ...
C6: DS 1980 ... ?Can-Am ...
C7: Japan 1980 ...
C8: Zakspeed/Ertl 1980 ...
C9: Works turbo test car 1980/81 - ?Crompton 1981 ...
C10?: Cramer 1981 ... McGaughay 1985 ...

Allen

Allen, very interesting, especially the Zakspeed/Ertl car. So the works team had 4, DS 2, one to Japan, plus 2 'test' chassis. I wonder whether in the light of this article, there really was a no 10 car?

Jeremy's memory is pretty good, so perhaps the McGaughey Lancia was built on an ex-Cramer tub, built well after the other cars.

Didn't Jo Gartner also have a TG280 in 1981, I wonder which car ??

Dan,

Combined with my memory( and notes, but thanks for the compliment!) found this: http://www.homepages.hetnet.nl/~scorpion037/racing.html#GT037

I think the car was advertised in Autosport after Cramer had finished with it, I'll try and find it, and see if it confirms the chassis

I was just reading the 1982 Can-Am review in OnTrack and noticed that the two Can-Am TG280s were run by Alan Docking in 1982. So that would appear to confirm where C3 and C6 went.

I also noticed Hopfer advertising his TG280 in OnTrack in late 1982 as being suitable for Can-Am.

Allen

A number of TG280's competed in the British Sprint Championship in the late 80's early 90's. Terry Clifford had one, Richard Ayers??? another, Nigel ???? had another and won the championship with one. Sorry I'm a bit sketchy on this as I was ony 10-12 at the time. Perhaps someone knows where these cars went?

James,

Nigel Bigwood was the name you're looking for, and Richard Ames was your question mark.

However, I can't get you much further on which chassis these were.

Weren't some of the TG 280s/ 820's converted by Ray Rowan to Roman hill climb cars. "Race Car Wharehouse" appear to have a couple of "Tolemans" for sale.

mcgaughy GT car was jimmy jacks car
allegedly sold to scandanavian when he was finished with it
BP works cars
3 were used 2 for BH 1 for Delboy
the roman hillclimb cars are not tolemans they are toleman tub skins and associated parts left over from the car buld programme ( commonly known as spare parts) from BS fabrication shop that Ray used to start the roman car buld with
u could say a roman is a toleman like you could call a toleman a ralt RT2 !
RR did have some parts to actually build 2-4 "tolemans" Ames had 1 ran in BP colours in mid 90`s
1 or 2 cars are in usa running in BP colours

This is not my field of greatest expertise, but my notes on the hillclimbing Tolemans are as follows:

1981
Godfrey Crompton T280 No.5
Crompton T280 (No.10) driven by Chris Cramer

1982
Godfrey Crompton and Peter Kaye T280 No.5
Chris Cramer T280 No.10

1983
Jimmy Jack T280 No.10

1984
Ray Rowan T280 No.5

1985
Ray Rowan T280 No.5

1986
nothing known

1987
Richard Ames T280 No.5

1988
Terry Clifford T280 No.5

1989
Terry Clifford T280 No.5
Nigel Bigwood TG290

1990
Terry Clifford T280 No.5
Nigel Bigwood TG290
Richard Ames TF290

1991
Terry Clifford T280 No.5
Richard Ames TF290 and/or T280

1992
Terry Clifford T280 No.5
Richard Ames T280

1993
Richard Ames T280
Richard Fry and Richard Brown T280 No.5

Note: T280 No.5 may have become the first Roman in 1985

"Note: T280 No.5 may have become the first Roman in 1985" NO this did not become Roman its a toleman and still is:banghead:
see my comments above -a roman is not a toleman:eek:
the 290 Ames car was sold to Boss racer then traded out later and broken up:(
motor ft200 sold off the remains where for sale a years ago
these cars had no plates:confused:

Calm down Drifters!
I know the later Romans weren't Tolemans, but as this car was retubbed in 1985 I wondered if it might also have been renamed.
Happy to accept my suggestion was wrong

i know yr not a scouser with the "calm down calm down" comment next thing u will be giving me the "fair dinkums":angel:
yr probably right 05 being retubbed as the man had the parts to do it:D
a roman was quite different when u got into the nitty gritty of the parts
it was easy to say it was a toleman tub but there where a few differences to the degree u could not revert a roman to 280 chassis etc:banghead:

Without wanting to get my head bitten off (!), was the BOSS racer who had the Ames car Colin Stone, or was his Toleman one of the original TG280s?

Jeremy, thanks for filling in my question marks.

I remember talking to Terry Clifford at Silverstone once (mid 90's) and he was talking about taking his TG280 BOSS racing but I don't know if he ever did. Anyone know? Colin Stone rings a bell, but don't know if it was Ames' car.

J

yes colin stone had ames old "toleman" and JJ if u read what i had stated earlier answered the question befroe u asked it

no terry never did race in boss in any car

Well I did read what you stated but since you weren't specific... If it had answered the question I wouldn't have had to clarify it.

Bye.

"RR did have some parts to actually build 2-4 "tolemans" Ames had 1 ran in BP colours in mid 90`s"
from earlier posting:laugh:
dont forget hillclimbers share cars so not all cars are sold on some perhaps satyed in "ownership" buy other drove them:)

Out of coincidence, I received my copy of Speedscene last night and in it was a picture of Ray Rowan driving the ex-David Render Toleman. Is this a genuine TG280? It was entered as one at a couple of meetings this year. If it is, I wonder which chassis it is?! This car has been competing in hillclimbs and sprints for a long time.

car still owned by DR used by ray fpr donkey`s years
not sure if it is true factory car or 1 of his "tolemans" made from the spares he bought- will ask him later

Just picked up this ancient thread. I have noted the chassis numbers/owners and will set in train the update of the British Sprint Championship Archive.

You can find the archive on www.britishsprint.com and before you ask I am not going to do one for the Hillclimb Championship! :cool:

Some details concerning Hillclimb and Sprint Tolemans.

1986 Ray Rowan shunted his Toleman at Doune. The TUB was a write off.

Ray Rowan then buys from Lola the following:
a) A Spare TG280 production tub (T850)
b) A half finished TG280 tub
c) Various suspension components
d) A selection of panels held in store for repairing tubs.

Ray Rowan then set about rebuilding his TG280 around the spare tub.

Rowan then builds up the hal finished TG280 for David Render which becomes TG87/1.

Rowan then uses the spare suspension and chassis panels to construct the Roman IVH.
:brm:

Ray built 2 "romans" and 3 or 4 "tolemans" from the bits he had and SPA made some more tub skins when he needed them for cars or repairs

They are all Ralt RT 2's anyway.

AB

blox are they! uprights are different tub is different suspension has large rockers on rear with dampers on top of gearbox
from 20 feet it may look ralt is but they are totaly different cars desgned and built by 2 different sets of people
after the RT2 hart car of 79 ralt went with honda and built cars for them to race for the next 4 seasons

Come on Kevan not so.

Rory Byrne worked alongside Ron in designing the RT2 of which only 4 were built in 1979 exclusively for Toleman. One more was built in 1980 for Gary Grove who ran it with an enveloping body in Can Am.

The car was then developed further by Toleman in 1980 and built by them and then as customer cars by Lola in 1981 as T850s. Richard Barnes then bought all that was left at Lola and the two Romans were born. One Hart 2.8 powered and the other CV powered. The 2.8 car eventually becoming CV powered through the late Mark Colton and then John Fellows who I think still has it. The other one went to Tony Marsh from RR and to then I do not know where.

Ralt did not do F2 in 1980 as you suggested because of the agreement with Toleman but resumed in 1981 with the RH6 Honda. Mike Thackwell won at Silverstone & Geoff Lees was Champion, the first for Ralt, with wins at Pau, Spa & Donington.

AB

So the Tolemans were Ralts because they were a development of the Ralt RT2? :rotate:

That's like saying all Williams Grand Prix cars are really March cars because Frank Williams ran a 761 in 1976 and produced the FW06 in 1977 so it must have been a development of the March! :laugh:

Surely the Tolemans were more Lola than Ralt?

a ralt is a ralt
a toleman is a toleman- 2 seperate cars- go fit a ralt part to a toleman then tell me if it fits!
The tubs follow ralts concept the body follows rt2/3 4 lines
the wheels are ralt drive pegs 1 end march the other end al uprights are different castings the wishbones are different
Lola built the toleman cars under a licence agreement for Toleman cos they went into F1 and could not carry out the work

next you will be telling us the Longhorn Indy car is a williams FW07 (but thats another thread for someone) or Maurer 81-83 cars are really chevron!

You are being too pedantic. My point is that the RT2 was a clean sheet of paper car designed by Ron together with input from Rory Byrne exclusively for the use of Toleman. When they were run in 79 Toleman developed them themselves. The car we know as a Toleman was not a clean sheet but an evolution of the RT2. Yes it is different but it was not a completely fresh design.

Steve Wilkinson grow up. That is not like saying a March 761 is a Williams I know the differnece. Lola came after Toleman not before so how can it be more Lola?

It is exactly the same point as in another thread on Pilbeams. Early Pilbeams and Ansons were all evolutions of the BT38 not something fresh out of Mike Pilbeam's or Gary Anderson's/Bob Simpson's minds. That is the only point I make about the Toleman/RT2.

Where shall we go next? Meaning of life or what is a Bowman realy?

AB.

Always thought of them as Archers! :rofl:

Off to listen to the compendium edition.

How is that fine Reynard of yours Steve?

AB.

Up for sale! Interested? :cool:

Now let me see. If my theory af evolution is correct. Your car was last owned by Martin Groves and before that Paul Stoddart so it must either be a European Minardi F1 or an NME engined Gould. Of course I am interested!

AB.

Well don't just sit there! :cool:

My turn to be pedantic - :) - there were three different designs of rear suspension for the RT2 [depending on when they were built] and two for the TG280 - and they are all different! Let me know if you need pics.

being pedantic is what motor racing is all about
yes derek yr right re 2 different set ups on front as well as rear of tolemans or shall we call the cars ralts !
If we are on the subject of what makes a car what do we call the mexican f2 cars circa 89-94 then?
these where space frame cars that looked just like rt4 with the body on
not sure who made them or whetehr they used any ralt parts
or the south african Lant
is that a ralt built under licence or a copy of a ralt or is it a Lant cos they made enough parts differently from ralt to make it a breed on its own
ive not seen 1 close up to check
there is also an ozzie car that looks like RT4 with its bodywork and follows ralt lines
cant think of its name ( cmon Brian its the yellow car) i have fotos somewhere
on the subject of Bowman - can we a credit that to being a ralt?
it may have used ralt uprights wheels etc but what do we call the van diemen f3 car of 93 then? that used ralt uprights & wheels
and on the subject is the ralt RT37 F3 car or or RT23 f3000 car really a ralt
it wasnt built at weybridge and designed by Ron it was March
and before anyone mentions that all ralts are really Brabhams !!

Now back to the story on RT2s - with much help from many of you on 10/10ths I think we've concluded there were six RT2s built by Ralt Cars Ltd -
- 152 built for Toleman in 1979, sold to Mel Lahner in South Africa, crashed, stripped and became basis for the Lants
- 153 also Toleman 1979, sold to Peter Lovely for Gary Gove to drive in 1980 CanAm races, then owned and raced in CanAm by Jim Trueman, then Eddie Wachs, in storage for many years, now in Detroit for historic racing
- 154 Toleman 1979, sold to Genoa Racing and appeared in later CanAm races driven by several drivers including JM Fangio II, now in California for historic racing
- above three all had a unique rear suspension with outboard springs/shocks and a complex multi-tube support frame
- 172 - built in 1980 as a CanAm car for Bill Blackledge, rebodied at least twice during its CanAm years, now owned by me and being renovated for historic races
- 181 - built for Cassani Racing Team in April 1980 for European F2 races being driven be several drivers including Rad Dougal and Manfred Winkelhock: the car later had an extensive career in CanAm format in Interserie races in 1980's [Binder, Hardt etc] and is now for sale in Germany
- 172 and 181 had early RT4 rear suspension with outboard springs/shocks and 'tea-tray' support frame
- 278 built in 1982 for Wyatt Stanley and raced by him and possibly others in UK races, exported to US in 1990's and now active in historic races. This car had the later design of RT4 rear suspension with inboard rear springs/shocks mounted vertically and operated by rocker arms.

All had Hart engines except the Cassani car which ran a BMW.

There may have been other RT2s built from 'spare' tubs but the above are the only ones known to have been built by Ralt.

If anyone wants pics showing the almost total difference in chassis design between RT2s and the Tolemans - let me know.

Derek

Side issue - I got great amusement some years ago from a lunch table expert at work who informed the group that the new Mercedes engine for CART was going to be so much better then the Chevy it replaced. Since it was my boss I didn't have the heart to explain that it was still an Ilmor and only the name on the cam covers [and the source of funds] had changed.

Derek, any idea on the possible chassis number for the Martin Chittenden 2.0 Ralt-Hart RT2 run by him in the 1989 British Sprint Championship? He only ran in a couple of rounds in July/August then the car disappeared off the map!

Thanks. :)

Driftwood,

The yellow car I presume you are trying to think of , is Vivian King's Galloway HG1 BDD Atlantic , one of the various cars built by Harry Galloway , starting with of course a clubman , in this case the Hargal.

Bryan.

thats the car
i must say u took our time in replying did u get up late this morning??!!

any idea on the possible chassis number for the Martin Chittenden 2.0 Ralt-Hart RT2 run by him in the 1989 British Sprint Championship? He only ran in a couple of rounds in July/August then the car disappeared off the map!

this car is i think is the wyatt stanley car (now in usa) it was owned by mr lane sold circa 94 to mr williams raced once Boss silverstone 95 DNF
then sold to usa circa early 96 car was red

Driftwood - thanks for the info.

The Roy Lane connection is spot-on as Martin used to spanner for Roy.

:cool:

Don't know about the hillclimb connection but the later history definitely fits. The car is frequently vintage raced over here - I know it well - in fact I have a small part of it on my workbench right now [borrowed it last July and forget to return it!].

car not hillclimbed -sprinted
( ive given up loaning parts to people for that very reason!! )

Don't be pedantic, Kevin - hillclimbs are just sloping sprints.

Hillclimbs - Sprints that go up hill! In some cases only slightly! :rotate:

Sprints - Speed events mainly on racing circuits or old airfields.

So remember, Hillclimbers may do it up hill BUT Sprinters do it Flat Out! :cool:

Allen's brilliant site has now done the '81 SE Asia Atlantics. This shows the Williamson Toleman as 'T860-HU5'. Unless there were 4 other T860s built, which I think is very unlikely, we must assume the car was numbered in the same sequence as the F2s, the T850s.

Given that this car raced later than the F2s, can we assume that only 4 T850s were made. Perhaps these were 2 to Docking Spitzley, and 1 each to San Remo and Freddy Scharwiler.

Does this make sense ??

Allen's brilliant site has now done the '81 SE Asia Atlantics.All credit to Chris Townsend.

This shows the Williamson Toleman as 'T860-HU5'. Err, no it doesn't. It shows it as T850-HU5.

Allen

Sorry Allen, you're right.

However, still on this car, Bryan M higher up on this thread has the Williamson car as -HU2. Its also described as ex Rothengatter, which I doubt. Any more thoughts anyone ? Also were any other Toleman/Lolas used in FAt anywhere else in the world in period ?

Dan

I think that HU5 might be brain fade on my part [as my numbering of the Williamson car came from Bryan before this thread started...] I'm now scurrying back to my notebooks to check!! However, it was not an F2 chassis, Rothengatter had raced it in Japan.

Chris

fyi the f2 280 toleman car used in japan is sitting in the museum there and i have plate foto as well !!

All,

My identification of the Peter Williamson Toleman from the Australian Grand Prix is taken from Australian Motor Racing Annual 1982/3 where the chassis no. is given as TA860-HU2 ,is also in attendance at the A.G.P. Nov. 1981 and was Toyota powered as opposed to the Cosworth BDD's of everybody else.

Chris, this is in all the photocopies on the way to you via big silver bird.

Bryan.

[QUOTE=Chris Townsend]Dan

I think that HU5 might be brain fade on my part [as my numbering of the Williamson car came from Bryan before this thread started...] I'm now scurrying back to my notebooks to check!! However, it was not an F2 chassis, Rothengatter had raced it in Japan.


Chris, do you mean it was an Atlantic tub, ie T860 not T850 ? I'd thought you meant it was an F2 car that Huub had raced in Japanese F2 at the end of 81.

All fixed. It now reads "Toleman TA860 [HU2]".

Do we know anything about 860 HU1?

Allen, other than I doubt it ever existed no !

Lola records show six T850s and two T860s:

HU850/1 - Japan (Nova Eng)
HU850/2 - Docking Spitzley
HU850/3 - Docking Spitzley
HU850/4 - Japan (Nova Eng)
HU850/5 - San Remo
HU850/6 - Mader/Schnarwiler

HU860/1 - Haas (25 June)
HU860/2 - Peter Williamson (16 Sep)

Hoshino drove for Nova, Stefan Johansson and Kenny Acheson (and others) for Docking Spitzley and Guido Pardini for San Remo. San Remo appears to have kept theirs for another couple of seasons and one of the DS cars also reappears in 1982.

Allen

Allen, I think San Remo kept using Tolemans until 1983, Roberto del Castello amongst others. Docking into 82, with Tassin and Rossi, or was he San Remo ?? They mixed and matched the TG280 and T850s, gradually modifying them into 'Toleman DS1s', still Hart powered.

The Haas T860 is interesting, did it ever race over there ?

The Haas T860 is interesting, did it ever race over there ?A surprise to me too. Maybe Chris has spotted it.

T860-HU1

OT 20.5.81 p.5 DSR tested a Toleman-Lola T860 at Mid Ohio in the week of Aug 3. Jacques Villeneuve did the driving'
Juan Cochesa 17th Road America 1983 in T860 so presumably this one as the Williamson car is a given at this date.
f/s OT 13.4.87 chassis no given as HU1, 'Villeneuve history'

Chris

Sorry, Cochesa result should be 1982, and there may be a few others as my results for that year still have some gaps.

C

C8: Constructed for Ford Germany and Zakspeed to test suitability of 1.4 Zakspeed turbo BDA (developed from Capri German championship engine) and delivered to Harold Ertl.
C9: Turbo development chassis for works to accommodate Hart turbo motor.

The Hart test car Henton described as the fastest thing he had ever driven at Goodwood, but had no brakes. I always thought it a shame they didnt enter the mulletta into F1 instead of the Belgrano, with pit stops a year ahead of Gordon Murray it might have been competitive despite the Pirellis - being so small and bereft of tankage it may well have qualified better anyways.

So Zakspeed were thinking of F1 far earlier than 1984 when they debuted their car then? Who knows more about this programme?

Some details concerning Hillclimb and Sprint Tolemans.

1986 Ray Rowan shunted his Toleman at Doune. The TUB was a write off.

Ray Rowan then buys from Lola the following:
a) A Spare TG280 production tub (T850)
b) A half finished TG280 tub
c) Various suspension components
d) A selection of panels held in store for repairing tubs.

Ray Rowan then set about rebuilding his TG280 around the spare tub.

Rowan then builds up the hal finished TG280 for David Render which becomes TG87/1.

Rowan then uses the spare suspension and chassis panels to construct the Roman IVH.
:brm:Steve

We never really did finish this conversation.

The car that Rowan crashed in 1986 appears to have been TG280/5 so its rebuild is still TG280/5 presumably. This car goes to Richard Ames for 1987 (Mason p372) and, as you say, the Toleman TG87 is then produced for Render who raced it through 1990. Rowan planned another car for himself in 1987, a Toleman-DFV but I don't think that appears. That projects turns into the Roman IVH I guess.

But then Nigel Bigwood has a Toleman TG280 for 1988 and I don't know which car that is. Bigwood runs this car in 1989 and, as a 'TG290', in 1990.

Richard Ames sells 280/5 to Clifford for 1988 but then also has a 'TG290' for 1990. Not the Render TG87, not the Clifford car and not the Bigwood car so what was this one?

Any ideas?

Allen

allen the real car is tg280# 5 that ray had
the last car that Ames had was a bitsa car Ray built 4 of them in BP livery he sprinted race dat thruxton once sold to colins tone for BOSS then part ex for f1 car to Bill Hall
that car was then sold to chris perkins who sold of fteh hart and ft200
chassis was then sold to A N Other and now its back with RR
the render car is a car built in the final 4 cars that ray built for m the pile of left over parts some had tubs made by SPA for him
he made the Roman with the left overs of those parts
the Bigwood car- wa sthis the dfv powered car?
Ray has the last toleman built car not with FT200 but FGB had the larger gbox fitted for larger engine if not dfv car its 2.8 hart that was fitted
DFV toleman was for the old fella that still hillcimbs Tony Marsh ( goes to show that we can still go racing when many have given up!!!) Now Allen go make the list up you want to make!!:xmas4:

Yes, the Bigwood car did have a DFV in 1991 but it had a 2-litre Hart when it first appeared in 1988. Was this a Rowan car too?

allen the real car is tg280# 5 that ray had
the last car that Ames had was a bitsa car Ray built 4 of them in BP livery he sprinted race dat thruxton once sold to colins tone for BOSS then part ex for f1 car to Bill Hall
that car was then sold to chris perkins who sold of fteh hart and ft200
chassis was then sold to A N Other and now its back with RR
the render car is a car built in the final 4 cars that ray built for m the pile of left over parts some had tubs made by SPA for him
he made the Roman with the left overs of those parts
the Bigwood car- wa sthis the dfv powered car?
Ray has the last toleman built car not with FT200 but FGB had the larger gbox fitted for larger engine if not dfv car its 2.8 hart that was fitted
DFV toleman was for the old fella that still hillcimbs Tony Marsh ( goes to show that we can still go racing when many have given up!!!) Now Allen go make the list up you want to make!!:xmas4:

The car that Tony Marsh ran was the ex-Bigwood car however it was by this time fitted with a DFL rather than a DFV.
:cool:

Yes, the Bigwood car did have a DFV in 1991 but it had a 2-litre Hart when it first appeared in 1988. Was this a Rowan car too?

Yes! In fact Ray Rowan effectively ran the car for Bigwood, attending all the British Sprint Championship rounds that didn't clash with the British Hillclimb Championship week-ends.

Once I have the time I will try to compile a brief history of the Rowan cars!

:cool:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/143/359555171_b178e2caac.jpg?v=0

Longleat House 1990

What about Toleman TG280 driven by hungarian Pap Laszlo Kalmandy in 1996 in hillclimbs?
http://work.vrchy.com/toleman.jpg

Another datas -
Pedrazza, Toleman TG280 (1983),
Wenk (1986)
Kiss (1987), Nagy (1994) - probably Kalmandy car on the pic, I think it could be ex-Pedrazza car

yes it is the Pedrazza car i have the car info ex works team car it is for sale
if anyione wants a works car contact me
ran hart in 1980 then converted to BMW

Tell us more drifty

car left uk to austria circa 81 ish & raced in interseries with PRC and bmw
m12
then it went behind the curtain circa 92 ish now sitting in a chums shed now fir sale asa roller

Pedrazza used March F2 (late 79-80), 81?, PRC-March (82), Toleman (83), PRC-March 812 (84) etc with PRC cars

car left uk to austria circa 81 ish & raced in interseries with PRC and bmw
m12
then it went behind the curtain circa 92 ish now sitting in a chums shed now fir sale asa roller

Would it have been the one sold to Jo Gartner for the 81 season, if so an ex- Docking TG280 I think.

nope!!!

Not strictly on topic, but related:

I have Royale RP21 Chassis No. 33 as owned and raced by Bob and Ted Toleman / Alex Hawkridge in 1976. Fully restored in original Toleman colours (2 shades of blue with orange stripes). The car can be seen in action at the Harewood Hillclimb last weekend at:

http://www.whatnonegatives.com/2007/070513_hare/at_HTML/index.htm

If anyone has any photos of early Toleman racing efforts, I'd like to see them!

Andrew

G'day,

I'm helping someone build a replica of a Toleman TG280 by constructing some 3D models for him using TurboCAD. Unfortunetly I know little to nothing about F2 in the 80's or Toleman in general and I was searching for some info including rules and regulations to the series for 1980 when I came across this thread. Anybody got any info? Just about anything at all will be much appreciated, esspecially the dimensions of various parts of the vehicle, namely the chassis, regulations the car met and any interesting pictures, esspecially hi-res.

Thankyou in anticipation.
Tom

why build a replica at a cost of £20k or so when you can buy a real car with history for less

Well as I mentioned this isn't actually my project and I'm really just doing some independant research so I can be as acurate as possible. The main reason I offered assistance in the design was to improve my skills on CAD and, like everyone else, I'd like to be able to build, at least help build a real live racing car.

I can entirely see your point but for me this is something I've been very interested in for a while, its a chance to get some experience and some preperation for a Motorsport Engineering course in University which I hope to be attending in September as well as redesinging an important piece of Motorsport history without actually putting myself out of pocket.

Hmm your at across roads
Can i suggest the viability of actually working with someone who owns a period race car and assist in that restoration/ rebuild project where you can draw off the real car for your cadcam skill/training and then u can assist in "bettering" the original design

we know today the defects of some older race cars and can correct some errors ( mostly in the aero package) working on maybe some suspension pick up points or even on the construction of say engine fitting kit parts chassis stiffness crash structure etc

Im afraid spending £10-20k building a replica of a 1980-85 F2 car would not be financially viable with the end product selling for less than it cost or what you can buy a period "history" car
If your going to spend hard earned $$££ on building a replica car race make it a model you could never afford like porsche 917 or williams FW07 !!

Maybe the next option is to purchase an old unrestored or even crashed car to work from maybe this covers the cadcam training and the car rebuild side in 1 hit
What Uni are you at? maybe we can direct u towards some local racers
I have car down here that needs rebuild work but if your in Lockerbie your too far away

why build a replica at a cost of £20k or so when you can buy a real car with history for less

Kevan - have you got a Toleman for 20? - Derek

Driftwood, I believe the guy I'm doing this for (Kurt) is in contact with you at the moment looking for similar information, I guess you're telling him pretty much the same thing?

I can completely understand what you mean about it being better to restore a car but that's really Kurt's decision, I'm just looking for something rewarding to do over the summer. Even if he does decide to restore a car or ditch the project all together I still think it would be good practice for me to have created and shown him what the car will look like in 3D, give him an idea of how much work it will take and then he can choose to continue or take your advice.

As I see it I have nothing to lose doing this, I'm not putting any money towards it and I can gain alot of experience on CAD from it, plus I get an idea of what the cars looked like before I was born and perhaps learn something from what they achieved and where they fell short which should ultimatly help me in the future.

If I can get the grades (2 Bs) I should be off to Oxford Brookes Uni and if you're in that area I'd be glad to help you restore yours.


Ignoring the actual car building part for now and focusing on the design, I'm still struggling to find any information at all on the car so if anyone has any... Just about anything at all will be much appreciated, esspecially the dimensions of various parts of the vehicle, namely the chassis, regulations the car met and any interesting pictures, esspecially hi-res.

There was a guy at Goodwood on Friday taking intricate measurements and making detailed drawings of the Matra MS80. I wonder if that was for a 3D model.

I'd done such a lovely job, I didn't have the heart to tell him that the car he was measuring was the third of two.

allen i have 2 more in the cupboard what colour shall i paint them!!
re Toleman yes Kurt ha smumbled about a car
still cannot see much point in building a replica of car that had 12 offical t280s made then another 5-10 made via lola as t281 cars!
i have many fotos of toleman cars with body off if u want to have fotos PM me yr address and i can mail them to u
Derek
if u want a real T280 call me i have 3 cars u can have and ive sold the most important t280 ever built 4 years ago

Help, confusion here Tom I only want to make a small scale model :p in whatever scale it will be 1:18, 1:43 etc. Mostly because there isn't one at the moment and I want to see how all that CNCing works.

@drifty: Of cource I'm not going to build a replica that would be ridiculous:rofl: That's why I contacted you.

I must admit i have not seen toleman models
seen some march 782 792 822 models from Oynx and Tamiya:D

I must admit i have not seen toleman models
seen some march 782 792 822 models from Oynx and Tamiya:D

True that why I want to see what I can do with some old fashioned skills + Tom's 3D drawing + a CNC machine.:rotate: Toleman seems to be a good first choice because of it's clean body shape and information available.

Sorry about that, didn't really understand what I was designing because I'd be drawing it full scale anyway then scaling it down using the miracle of computers. I put replica because I wasn't sure if it was supposed to be working or just for show or just a model...

Toleman TG280 cars
C1: Works 1980 - Colombo 1981 - Hinton 1985. Retained 2003.
C2: Works Warwick 1980 - Hopfer 1981 .82 Pedrazza then to Hungary
C3: DS 1980 - Rothengatter DS spare 1981 ? Can-Am ...Eddie wachs?
C4: Works 1980 .Henton now in Oz..
C5: Works 1980 Hentons ( 2nd half of season car) - Crawford 1981 - Crompton .Rowan Clifford ...now Terry Fisher 2006
C6: DS 1980 .-Stohr Can-Am ...Eddie wachs?
C7: Japan 1980 ...Takahashi races thru 81 & 82 still there in museum [COLOR="Magenta"]also 2 toleman cars race in 1984 2 drivers have cars with BMW power Sakamoto twice & Fujiwara once both run at the last round ( so where did the other car come from?
C8: Zakspeed/Ertl 1980 ...
C9: Works turbo test car 1980Gartner in 81
C10 Cramer 1981 ...Jimmy Jack then as Lancia GT car for McGaughay 1985
C11 Richard Fry hillclimbing with FGB gearbox 2.8 Hart power
T290 cars
1 to Richard Ames Colin Stone Bill Hall sold to Perkins then broken up remains of car sold to USA 2007
1 to David Render sold to usa 2007
1 to Nigel Bigwood tony Marsh
1 ?? now in a a garage
1981
San remo enter TG280 #1 for Rossi
Sewi Hopfer races #2
Jo Gartner races Toleman TG280#9
Wyatt stanley races TG280which car is this a DS car?
Jim Crawford Plygrange racing - 05 henton car
DS enter #3 for Londono -Bridge
Johansson appears at Mantorp park in toleman not Lola car #4? or mis print for #3?
Japan #7 for Advan Takahashi with Hart engine
Rothengatter races toleman with Hart engne 2nd to last round then
last race of season Acheson appears in a Toleman with Honda enginewhere did this come from?

Missing cars
it appears Eddie Wachs may have had 3 Toleman can am cars ( I believe he buys the Docking Spitzley team cars of 2 Lola T850 and 1 toleman TG280 or 2 TG280 and 1 Lola? ) he retains 2 today and 1 car is racing in usa as F2 car with no plate but it came with some body panels with livery from the can am cars

Jan Theulke races TG290 in 1983 entered by Erwin Derichs poss Gartner#9 car?

Romans
2 cars built 1 destroyed 1 remains with John Fellows 2007

Lola T850
factory records show six T850s and two T860s:

HU850/1 - Japan (Nova Eng) - Hoshino only 1 car ran all year in 81 butNakano & Suzuki race in 82
HU850/2 - Docking Spitzley - Acheson
HU850/3 - Docking Spitzley -Johansoon
HU850/4 - Japan (Nova Eng)- Hoshino only 1 car ran all year 81 but Nakano & Suzuki race in 82However no races in 83 and most of 84 but Tasumi races a car once
HU850/5 - San Remo- Pradini in 81 - Del Castello in 82 Dacco in 83
HU850/6 - Mader-Schnarwiler poss Hagenbauer in 82?

HU860/1 - Haas (25 June)
HU860/2 - Peter Williamson (16 Sep) now in Oz
Docking Spitzley
enter cars in 1982 as DS1#2 & 3 for Tassin & Rossi but also run Lola 850 hu 2 as well and Toleman Tg280#3 is a spare?
Is the DS1 a Lola car with mods or a new car? as they had T850 Hu2 & 3 i suspect they are Lola /toleman cars with mods
1981 or did they modify toleman TG280#3 to a DS1 car?
On paper toleman and lola are the same cars except the bodywork differs
DS team had
Toleman TG280#3 & 6
Lola T850 hu 2 & 3 so DS1#3 could be either car!! I guess I will have to ask Alan next week

T860 - HU2 has previous in Japanese F.Pacific before it is sold to Williamson. Believe it to have been used by Rothengatter in Japan, at least that's what New Zealand Motor Action says about the car.

Chris

Romans
2 cars built 1 destroyed 1 remains with John Fellows 2007

The first Roman to appear was on the hills in 1988. It had a 2.8 Hart engine and was nominally called the IVH - NB Rob Turnbull shared the driving duties.
The pair also ran the car in 1989. Rowan continued with IVH through to the end of 1991 when he sold the car to Mark Colton. Colton ran the car initially with the Hart engine (1992) then for 1993 it was converted to Judd V8 power by Rowan and Colton campaigned the car through 1993 & 1994. For 1995 Colton switched to the MP72 Pilbeam and removed the Judd engine from the Roman. Meanwhile Rowan had built up another Roman (VJ) which was campaigned sporadically by various drivers including Rowan and Mineef.

Tony Marsh bought IVH and fitted his Cosworth DFL for 1996 after he shunted the Toleman TG191 DFL in 1995 - the TG191 being the ex-Bigwood car.

John Fellows first appeared with the Roman VJ in 1997 still fitted with the 3.5 Judd engine.

:cool:

well done steve
chris u reckon hu2 was the car Huub raced in japan with hart 420r in the F2 race then?

Toleman TG280 cars
C5: Works 1980 Hentons ( 2nd half of season car) - Crawford 1981 - Crompton .Rowan Clifford ...now Terry Fisher 2006
C11 Richard Fry hillclimbing with FGB gearbox 2.8 Hart power
T290 cars
1 to Richard Ames Colin Stone Bill Hall sold to Perkins then broken up remains of car sold to USA 2007
1 to David Render sold to usa 2007
1 to Nigel Bigwood tony Marsh
1 ?? now in a a garage
1981


TG280H-C5 - this car was initially run by Ray Rowan from 1984 to 1986. In 1987 Richard Ames drove the car in the BSC. In i988 Terry Clifford bought the car and ran it from '88 to '92. In 1993 Richard Fry mad an appearance in the car.

TG87/1 - This car was again initially run by Ray Rowan in 1987 before David Render took it over. Render drove it from '87 until '93.

TG280-?? - Nigel Bigwood appeared in a Toleman Hart during 1988 and '89

TG290-?? - Nigel Bigwood switched to a 290 for 1990.

TG290-?? - Richard Ames drove another TG290 during 1990 & '91.

TG191-?? - Nigel Bigwood appeared in this Cosworth V8 powered Toleman in 1991. It was then sold to David Render who used it in conjunction with TG87/1 during '92 & '93. The car was sold mid-way through 1993 to Tony Marsh who used it for the remaider of the season and through until 1995.

:cool:

So Steve
Toleman built 11 official cars
All in all Ray assembled by hook or by crook 5 cars and retubbed chassis 5
making 16 "Toleman" cars and Lola made 6 F2 and 2 F atlantic cars
the final total of cars of that design being 24

does TG191 still exist today?
Roman IVH -still around?
TG87/1 Render 2.8 litre car this is the car Ray was using till last year in club sprints now sold to usa?

So Steve
Toleman built 11 official cars
All in all Ray assembled by hook or by crook 5 cars and retubbed chassis 5
making 16 "Toleman" cars and Lola made 6 F2 and 2 F atlantic cars
the final total of cars of that design being 24

does TG191 still exist today?
Roman IVH -still around?
TG87/1 Render 2.8 litre car this is the car Ray was using till last year in club sprints now sold to usa?

TG87/1 was the car Ray was using in the British Hillclimb Championship up until last year. Didn't know it was sold to the States though!!!

Roman IVH has been stripped of its engine & gearbox and is currently "for sale" although who would want it I am not sure!

I believe TG191 was the one crashed and written off by Tony Marsh. He then bought IVH as a roller and installed the DFL & Hewland from TG191 in IVH.

:cool:

TG87/1 was the car Ray was using in the British Hillclimb Championship up until last year. Didn't know it was sold to the States though!!! top secret info if i told u more i would have to kill you !

Roman IVH has been stripped of its engine & gearbox and is currently "for sale" although who would want it I am not sure!always 1 out there who wants a car !!
if a man has a dfl and hewland lying around he could rebuild the car for historic hillclimbing in 15 yrs time!!

I believe TG191 was the one crashed and written off by Tony Marsh. He then bought IVH as a roller and installed the DFL & Hewland from TG191 in IVH.

TG280-?? - Nigel Bigwood appeared in a Toleman Hart during 1988 and '89

TG290-?? - Nigel Bigwood switched to a 290 for 1990.

TG191-?? - Nigel Bigwood appeared in this Cosworth V8 powered Toleman in 1991. It was then sold to David Render who used it in conjunction with TG87/1 during '92 & '93. The car was sold mid-way through 1993 to Tony Marsh who used it for the remaider of the season and through until 1995.Could this be the same car throughout, updated for 1990 and re-engined for 1991? Steve - are you able to ask Bigwood? And can he recall where the TG280 came from before 1988?

Allen

Could this be the same car throughout, updated for 1990 and re-engined for 1991? Steve - are you able to ask Bigwood? And can he recall where the TG280 came from before 1988?

Allen

Unfortunately Nigel is no longer with us.

All the cars (if there were multiple cars) came from Ray Rowan.

Maybe Drifty could ask Raymondo next time they are chatting?

:relax:

Ah yes, sorry.

Difficult to keep up with all recent posts. However a couple of items. First what are "TG290s"?? Second I thought we'd established elsewhere that Wyatt S never in fact raced the Toleman he entered in early 81 or 82. He did appear once only, albeit in an Ralt RT6 or similar.

TG290 is a made up name for the cars built out of spare parts from the factory
Ray Rowan cleared the dead stock made these cars for hillclimbers
the toleman run was 11 cars 9 race din F2 2 went hillclimbing
lola built/made 5x T850 under licence in 81

1 car had DFL fitted
with the odd spares left after the "toleman" tg290 cars where built Ray made the Roman using some uprights and tub skin bits with SPA making more parts and the final tubs for the 2 Romans but they are 2 totally different cars
They have DNA to toleman f2 cars car but are not toleman modifed cars

as we discussed earlier in detail the f2 cars plus the 4-5 hillclimb sprinting cars and more can be added if someone needs more info
only 1 roman exists
bored now can we have some photos please

Further to Drifty's notes below:

1) The TG290s were the Tolemans built up by Ray Rowan from the spare tubs/chassis.
2) The Romans were the cars that Ray Rowan built from the spare bits (i.e. not full tubs/chassis) plus what he had made-up by SPA.
3) There are two Romans left that I know of (one in Yorkshire that is in bits and minus its engine & gearbox, the other a complete car which hasn't competed for many years).

On the photo front I have loads of stuff on slides which I will hopefully digitise over the Winter IF another project doesn't take up too much of my time!

PS How did I ever find time to go to work!!!

TG290 is a made up name for the cars built out of spare parts from the factory
Ray Rowan cleared the dead stock made these cars for hillclimbers
the toleman run was 11 cars 9 race din F2 2 went hillclimbing
lola built/made 5x T850 under licence in 81

1 car had DFL fitted
with the odd spares left after the "toleman" tg290 cars where built Ray made the Roman using some uprights and tub skin bits with SPA making more parts and the final tubs for the 2 Romans but they are 2 totally different cars
They have DNA to toleman f2 cars car but are not toleman modifed cars

as we discussed earlier in detail the f2 cars plus the 4-5 hillclimb sprinting cars and more can be added if someone needs more info
only 1 roman exists
bored now can we have some photos please

PS How did I ever find time to go to work!!! what is that?
I believe John took the roman out recently !!

amendments on the extra cars built
I was with Ray strapped to a chair spot light in face mole grips on finger nails and he finally confessed
The Bigwood car was with 2.8 Hart then sold to Tony Marsh with dfl power
That car is later sold less engine and a 2 litre motor was poised to be fitted but car never ran and is still in black bodywork as a roller

2 more cars ran1 wa sthe BP liveried car ran by Ames in sprints then colin stone in BOSS
that car was then sold broken up for engine and gearbox now sold to usa as a pile of spare parts
the third car is the Render car with 2.8 Hart now in usa
so 3 cars built from the dead stock Toleman /Lola parts not 4 !
Romans
1 car still complete
other car was cannibalised for engine and gearbox for another project car
tub still around somewhere

So, to modify Steve's histories:

TG280H-C5 - this car was initially run by Ray Rowan from 1984 to 1986. In 1987 Richard Ames drove the car in the BSC. In i988 Terry Clifford bought the car and ran it from '88 to '92. In 1993 Richard Fry mad an appearance in the car.

TG87/1 - This car was again initially run by Ray Rowan in 1987 before David Render took it over. Render drove it from '87 until '93.

TG280-?? - Nigel Bigwood appeared in a Toleman Hart during 1988 and '89

TG290-?? - Nigel Bigwood switched to a 290 for 1990.

TG290-?? - Richard Ames drove another TG290 during 1990 & '91.

TG191-?? - Nigel Bigwood appeared in this Cosworth V8 powered Toleman in 1991. It was then sold to David Render who used it in conjunction with TG87/1 during '92 & '93. The car was sold mid-way through 1993 to Tony Marsh who used it for the remaider of the season and through until 1995.TG280H-C5 - Rowan from 1984-1986 - Richard Ames 1987 - Terry Clifford 1988-92 - Richard Fry 1993 ...

TG87/1 - Ray Rowan 1987 - David Render 1987-93 ... now in USA with 2.8 Hart

TG280-?? - Nigel Bigwood 1988-89; then as T290 in 1990; then as TS191-DFL in 1991 (- Render 1992-93) - Tony Marsh 1993-95 ... later sold less engine ... now a roller in black bodywork.

TG290-?? - Richard Ames 1990-91 ... Colin Stone for BOSS ... later broken up and sold to USA as spare parts.

Have I got that right?

not quite
TG290-?? - Richard Ames 1990-91 ... Colin Stone for BOSS ... later broken up and sold to USA as spare parts.correct= 1 of the later built cars
TG87/1 - Ray Rowan 1987 - David Render 1987-93 ... now in USA with 2.8 Hart another of the later built cars & always been a sprint car sold with the remains of the above car

TG280H-C5 - Rowan from 1984-1986 - Richard Ames 1987 - Terry Clifford 1988-92 - Richard Fry 1993 ...this car is the TRUE toleman ex henton 2nd half of 1980 F2 season car now with Terry Fisher- Ray will confirm car was shunted and had new tub fitted

TG280-?? - Nigel Bigwood 1988-89; then as T290 in 1990; then as TS191-DFL in 1991 (- Render 1992-93) - Tony Marsh 1993-95 ... later sold less engine ... now a roller in black bodywork.initailly I had listed as 2 seperate cars but they are in fact 1 car as it went from Hart power to DFR then proposed hart power again but car never ran



Tolemans chassis 10 and 11 where built by factory for hillclimbers with FGB gearboxes
9 cars raced in F2
2 went hillclimbing
3 cars later built from spare parts from the factory
6 cars built by Lola as T850/860 cars under licence
Total cars built that look like Tolemans= 20

http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/1272/tg28001xg2.jpg

I was sorting through some of my photos and that got me wondering, as I was always curious about the Roman I saw at Wiscombe Park in 2006. Bob Penrose was driving - in the programme it's listed as a Roman Mk5 with a DFL engine.

Pic: http://www.flickr.com/photos/cabrinigreen/2934387030/

I've gone through this thread so I gather there are currently 2 Romans, one complete (Roman VJ?) and one a tub (Roman IVH?). Could anyone help with the competition history of this particular Penrose car? From this thread (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=80104) I gather Penrose acquired the car for 2006 from Rob Romeril (who google tells me was active with it in 2002 (http://www.harewoodhill.co.uk/Hwoodgallery/Hwoodgallery2002.htm)). Am I to assume this car is the Roman VJ, so currently (or as of 2007) owned by John Fellows? Cheers ;)

I was sorting through some of my photos and that got me wondering, as I was always curious about the Roman I saw at Wiscombe Park in 2006. Bob Penrose was driving - in the programme it's listed as a Roman Mk5 with a DFL engine.

Pic: http://www.flickr.com/photos/cabrinigreen/2934387030/

I've gone through this thread so I gather there are currently 2 Romans, one complete (Roman VJ?) and one a tub (Roman IVH?). Could anyone help with the competition history of this particular Penrose car? From this thread (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=80104) I gather Penrose acquired the car for 2006 from Rob Romeril (who google tells me was active with it in 2002 (http://www.harewoodhill.co.uk/Hwoodgallery/Hwoodgallery2002.htm)). Am I to assume this car is the Roman VJ, so currently (or as of 2007) owned by John Fellows? Cheers ;)

No the Bob Penrose Roman and the John Fellows car are two different chassis.

The Fellows car is currently for sale less engine whilst the Penrose car is in bits at Steve Owen's OMS factory. Penrose had Steve Owen use the car as a Parts Bin for the OMS that Bob now runs.

:cool:

fellows car is a ray rowan built toleman used by tony marsh dfl etc

fellows car is a ray rowan built toleman used by tony marsh dfl etc

http://photos-e.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v150/125/90/826713559/n826713559_237204_6010.jpg

Ray Rowan driving the John Fellows car in the 60th Anniversary Meeting at Shelsley Walsh.

Thanks guys, that's perfect. So much information here and still I got the two mixed up! Shame the car is now in bits. Cheers ;)

Another photo of Roman IVH - http://www.flickr.com/photos/si558/1524062711/

which car is in bits? the Roman Fellows has is complete

which car is in bits? the Roman Fellows has is complete

The John Fellows car is complete less engine whilst the Bob Penrose car is the one in bits.

:cool:

Yeah, sorry if my comment following the picture of the Fellows car caused confusion. I meant it's a shame about the Penrose car. ;)

ok im clear now
yes Fellows is putting the judd cv motor from roman into the reynard 93d car he has
how long will it be before there is a classic/ historic hillclimb series for the older cars

ok im clear now
yes Fellows is putting the judd cv motor from roman into the reynard 93d car he has
how long will it be before there is a classic/ historic hillclimb series for the older cars

2009 :cool: