FF1600 Tyres

Not much FF1600 chat over the last couple of weeks so I am going to post some discusion.

Would it be a good idea to limit the amount of sets of tyres used? I have spoken to a number of the guys at the sharp end of NWFF and they have been using a set per meeting and both the people I spoke to said they had done that because the other was doing it!!! If I was fighting for the title then maybe I would have done the same but if we limit a set of tyres to 2 or maybe 3 rounds then would that not save people a lot of money? If that was the case then they would still be on the same amount of rubber each and the driving would still do the talking but with between £350 and £700 more in the pocket?

This would be hard if you went to race at Combe for example as it would only be a one off race but you would not be going for the championship so you would not need points so you could do what you wanted.

Also I think I remember back to the good old days when NWFF raced at the big events at Oulton park such as BTCC etc. Why can't we get to do the same again. We offer full grids and great racing at grass routes level. Same for the Combe boys (and girls if any!). Would the paying public like to see great races such as ours as well as the big boys on a race weekend? NWFF has a lot of history at Oulton and a chance to race in the big weekends once in a while in front of 15 - 20,000 fans would be great.



:beer:

I think a new tyre only has a real, as opposed to psychological advantage for a couple of laps in the dry, with more tread its bound to be better in the wet.
I heard somewhere that its not just additional heat cycles that make them harder, but exposure to light over long periods. Maybe this is why 'last years tyres' are useless.
I can always give a good home to nearly new tyres.

Originally posted by Redracer57
and great racing at grass routes level.

Grass routes? You're supposed to keep it on the black bits!:p

In the nwff zetec championship last year the drivers were allowed 2 new tryres per round, ie a new set for each double header. This did keep the costs down. I think they should go even further to try and get more drivers in the championship. It will be good for the sport.

Zetecs can spend as much as they like!!! The more ££££ it is the more people stay in FF1600. In NWFF 1600 you could have a new set for qualifing and a new set for the race if you really wanted to waste your money. I would like to see all drivers agree to use only 1 set for 2 meetings.

Originally posted by Redracer57
I have spoken to a number of the guys at the sharp end of NWFF and they have been using a set per meeting and both the people I spoke to said they had done that because the other was doing it!!!
Chris,
1. A number of people makes it sound like more than two [which I agree is a number]
2. Who would police this? Your Regional Representative nee Co-ordinator will be too busy eating cake! :laugh:
diz

the top 3 all used new rubber for each round. You could take the serial numbers from the tyres and do a quick check before each qualifying and/or race. Maybe anyone found guilty will have to supply you with loads of cake!!

It's a bit different in class B then - I used three sets all year, for the first time. Four tyres were changed due to damage.
BTCC seems such a lot of hassle now that I'm not sure I'd want to do it (paddock in Northwich?) but the F3/GT meeting would be great.

You will not be able to do this on the grounds of safety or legality of the tyres. What are you going to do in the wet? Are you going to force someone to race on tyres which have substantially less tread than is safe? What will you do if the tyres wear down more quickly and are not legal for use in the last race for which they have to be used. Sounds good but almost impossible to enforce bearing in mind the above.

What does a new set of FF control tyres cost these days ?

Too bloody much......!

The idea redracer has has some merit but, alas I think would be difficult to police. It would be like trying to curb the amount of testing that goes on. I'm sure you'd agree that in addition to new tyres, the amount of testing that was undertaken by the top 3 in the nwff championship it could also be said was a factor in their success?

Perhaps we could limit testing to "official" tests only ie a set number of days for nwff only? I fear another can of worms?

I agree that the kudos of racing in front of a huge crowd for a headline meeting would be great, but I fear in practice not an experience that would benefit any of us. If I recall correctly, the nwff once ran as an invited event to a BRDC meeting at Oulton a few years back which I think was an F3 meeting (cue brackets from Diz here if I've got my facts confused: it's been a while since I've said that phrase!!). The paddock was so full of transporters and motorhomes and hangers on etc. we were forced to park outside the paddock with the general public!

Originally posted by swift
If I recall correctly, the nwff once ran as an invited event to a BRDC meeting at Oulton a few years back which I think was an F3 meeting (cue brackets from Diz here if I've got my facts confused: it's been a while since I've said that phrase!!). The paddock was so full of transporters and motorhomes and hangers on etc. we were forced to park outside the paddock with the general public! Ah! it must be late and Mrs swift has gone to beddy byes, allowing him his late night play on TT. I don't remember the headline event, but we were parked up on the entry road just over the Bailey Bridge and a letter from God was needed to get into the Paddock. My highlight of the weekend was Nicola F. shooting through the parked FF "Paddock" on her moped, not stopping when she got to the entry road and falling off it in avoiding a spectator on a road bike. I helped her to her feet, before I realised who she was :laugh: She wasn't hurt - fortunately - just her pride.

It would be nice to get in front of a big crowd for a change. I think the Silverstone FF1600 race earlier in the year was in the F3/GT meeting but was last race at 5.30pm. It is always nice to race in front of a crowd but if we end up being last race with the chance of not racing and placed out on the grass at Druids then maybe we should stick to our nice little meetings like we had this year (as long as they are not all in August Diz...!).

Originally posted by Redracer57
(as long as they are not all in August Diz...!). I like August !!!!!!!!! :D
Please don't shout at me, I'm very sensitive to criticism I only Regionally Represent the series. Calendars are put together by HQ, so badger them

no shouting Diz just having a laugh!! I have got more chance of my 2 year old nephews listening to me than HQ.

How about banning 'pro' run teams? That should save some folk a few quid. LOL

The Combe championship gets a slot om the F3 and GT race weekend. On the first running they ran on the Saturday so as not to upstage the Slick 50 Zetecs, and I think they have run at the end of the day on Sunday as well although as a non championship round this year.
To get back on topic, limiting tyres is a good idea, especially for the newer cars which tend to use their tyres far more than pre 90 cars. However policing such a move would be a nightmare, and drivers who cherry pick races would be at a distinct advantage imho.

It's the nature of the sport that those dedicated enough will spend what it takes. If control tyres lasted longer it would be in all our interests (except Avon).
The arguement against this would be with harder tyres times would be slower...but it would be the same for everyone, and as for the wet they are already c..p so it wouldn't make much difference.

true verglas but if you are cherry picking rounds then you are not going to win the championship. But the rule would still apply as they would have to use the one round old set in the second cherry picked race when the other drivers maybe able to run a new set as they are just about to start the 3rd round of the Championship for example so the cherry picker will be on old tyres and the championship racers will be on new. It works both ways!!

How about getting Avon to lower the tyre prices - development is halted on them, and I refuse to accept it costs almost £400 to make a full set. The mark up must be pretty big. That way you could if you wanted to change the tyres more often at a much less cost and those who are nuts enough to buy a set a race won't get an advantage as the lesser people who change them say once every 4 will be able to change them once every 4 instead of 1 or 2 sets per season. I know its the opposite of what your saying but could make a good move less money = the lesser funded people to run on the same set for less money or change them more on a more regular basis like the better funded teams for the same ammount of money as they have paid in the past.

While Avon have the monopoloy on the tyres (I think Avon are good and there should only be 1 controled tyre) they can charge what they want

simple all use ACB9's like FF1600 cars were designed to use
they work as well virtualy bald as brand new with bonus of being able stay on the track in the wet.

I thought we where on ACB 9's although I could be wrong I never paid attention to the numbers I just took them to the Avon truck and said "more please"

I think we run on ACB10's

Historics (i) run on ACB9's, pretty much most things else in the Uk run on ACB10's the ones which were originally designed for the Zetecs.

Hi Jason...wasn't your car designed for Firestone Torinos?

Quiet Mr Jones, more like roundish pieces of wood !!
Your showing us all your age again.

For 'modern' FF1600's the regs say ACB10's, so no choice.

Both ACB9 and 10's are allowed in Classic FF and not much to choose between them, people have won races on both types of tyre (wet and dry !!). Personally, I prefer the feel of the car on 9's, and they seem to last longer.

so the 10's where for the zetec's then, I am guessing they are the zetec "wet" tyre ?

If so the point is still valid. Bring the cost down on the tyres.

No the zetec's have slicks and a proper 'wet' racing tyre, which are much better than 9 or 10's in the wet.

The ACB10s were used by Zetecs in 93 only and given up as 'unsuitable' I think.

Darcym.......your right it's the profit that makes them expensive. I wonder how the control tyre is chosen and who does the choosing. Without doing the sums it must be a massive contract, with all of the advantages of a guarranteed monopoly

When the Zetec's were intro'd in 93 they ran the Dunlops, they then shifted to the ACB10 tyre for wet and dry and then shifted to where we are now in terms of a standard slick and wet. FF should run on ACB9 - the same as the old Dunlops, as this was the best tyre for all conditions - and they did not fade during its wear life.

It seems stupid for a runners in a local clubbie series to be throwing new tyres at a FF1600 - surely these people would be better off in something faster that suits the larger wallet. Also, why not introduce a set number of tyres per meeting then everyone is level.

It does beg the question, that running with a professional team, new tyres every time you leave the pits - exactly how much is a budget for leading NWFF??

I just think that the problem as Redracer pointed out is the budget of some people. The bottom line is "if you can't afford it - don't do it" but thats not really the attitude I enjoy seeing. I would rarther be beat by someone and come second, for example, than win because the better guy doesn't have the budget. Others feel differently.

As the ACB 10's (I thought we where on 9's) do not get developed any further, in that we have been using the same rubber compound for years (or so I am told) then there should be no further need for development/testing funding included in the price. This is a club sport and I am sure that by now using this tyre in the pro series (national formula ford) for a couple of years will have re-couped the initial development costs. Therefore we as club racers should see the benifits of being club racers. eg: second hand car parts from the national series, pre developed / tested tyres from the club series. With this in mind I cannot accept that it costs Avon almost £400 to make a set of these tyres, therefore I can only assume that Avon are making a MASSIVE profit on the tyres, and while they have the monopoly (I am not saying the shouldn't have the monopoly) they can charge what they want. Running on controled tyres is supposed to be safer and cheaper....I have no doubt it is cheaper than the national series, but as I said earlier this is club racing, not professional.

I think FoMoCo do the choosing, and include in their regs. But no 'choosing' has been done for about 10 years now!

The ACB10 were only given up for slicks as Vauxhall Jr was faster so they wanted to make the Zetec compete so they went to slicks

OK - how about this for a rule for a club series - only 2 new tyres per meeting. Anything which involves marking tyres or recording serial nos every meeting will be a nightmare for the scrutes ???

Policing any tyre limiting rule will be difficult and time consuming. Given the reliability and consistency of the ACB9 over its life surely it would make sense to change they official tyre and there reduce costs for all competitors.

..... provided people don't moan about needing new gear ratios, revised susp geometry, etc. There is quite a big difference in diameter, ACB10's being smaller.

ACB10s 'look' better too!

My old primary school headteacher had a 1910 Riley and, thinking back, his tyres (like 28 inch) remind me of ACB9s/Dunlops.

till your in gravel trap cos u got no grip in the wet maybe.

come on Diz lets have your 2 peneth you must have woken up by now it's about the time the scousers go owt on the prowl likkkke.

With ACB10's is it legal to use 4 fronts in the wet ???
Would need to raise the ride height a little at the back first !

And mess with your ratios again stick with 9's

I just heard a reportedly true story that the bomb squad were about to blow up Diz' car in Toxteth. Just in time he returned and asked what was suspicious about it...........it had a current tax disc!!!

As well as bits of icing and marzipan scattered around the driver area thinking it was full of semtex.!!LOL

Originally posted by kartingdad
How about banning 'pro' run teams? That should save some folk a few quid. LOL I don't recall Ralph turning up to help any Van Diemen driver. :laugh:

Originally posted by StephenRae
Hi Jason...wasn't your car designed for Firestone Torinos? You swine Jonesey. Just got home from work and find you have already put young Minshaw in his place.

Originally posted by spearce
OK - how about this for a rule for a club series - only 2 new tyres per meeting. Anything which involves marking tyres or recording serial nos every meeting will be a nightmare for the scrutes ??? How would you police this one Steve?

Originally posted by jminsh
come on Diz lets have your 2 peneth you must have woken up by now it's about the time the scousers go owt on the prowl likkkke. I'm up very early, I've got a "proper job"

Originally posted by diz
Just got home from work.

Chief taster at Mr Kipling's i take it:D

Only joking have a brill Christmas J.

In terms of policing - I can tell the differece between new and 1 meeting old tyres !!! But agree somebody's got to take the trouble to look at tyres on every car in the assembly area before start of Q. Have another cake .....

A few points chaps.

1. From Steve Burns - new FF1600 Co-ordinator for all regional series :

2004 technical regulations will be as per the Ford Motor Co. regs so any new
'Zetec' chassis will have to fully comply with the FF1600 regs.

Regarding tyres, having taken advice from Avon, Ford and a number of team
managers and chassis builders it is intended that Pre '82 cars will use ACB9
or Dunlop (as most of them use these already) and Post '81 cars will run
ACB10. I hope that this clarifies the situation and allows everybody to
continue using what they already have.

2. COST of TYRES:

Avon ACB10s' are made in Wiltshire and sold in the UK at a fixed price.

Avon ACB10s' are made in Wiltshire and exported to South Africa - where they are the control tyre - and sold there for approximately 50% of the UK price.

I don't profess to know much about "big business", but how does this stack up ???

Anybody thinking about shipping a container full from Jo'burg to the UK? Could be a nice little earner. T'would be easier to skip the shipping bit and buy them cheaper from Wiltshire though.

Put me down for a set at SA price then please Diz, cheque or cakes ???

Any contacts for ZA Diz as the old Man's racing our Mustang over there in Jan i'm sure you could fit a few sets inside for the return journey.

I'm sure Avon will correct the price malady by doubling the S.A. price.

Originally posted by diz
Just got home from work.

Chief taster at Mr Kipling's i take it:D

Only joking have a brill Christmas J.

That's you off Avon's Christmas card list.

From a post I made yesterday about National Driver of the year and posters bemoaning big spenders getting success.
###################
All the leading lights in every formula spend the money. That is where "success" comes from.

In 750F, Maestros, XR2s, FF1600 etc., the rebuilt engines, new tyres, testing, etc., pays dividends for the spenders.

It is no different in F1. If Minardi could spend as much as Ferrari, they would be up there at the sharp end.

Pure driving ability in a poor car that only ever sets wheels on a circuit for a 15 minute qualifier and short race will never show the drivers true potential.

Sad, but true.
###################
This is sort of relevant to this thread.

I see your hash (#) keys got stuck again Diz.

Must be Liverpools drug culture!!!! ha ha .

Careful there or Diz will give you a smack. (only £40)

Originally posted by jminsh
Must be Liverpools drug culture!!!! ha ha . Seems to be "have a go at diz day today"
Have a smiley from the scouser you :censored:
Still any publicity is good publicity, so keep the banter going and keep NW FF1600 in peoples minds.
Must go now, I'm off to start a cake thread.

BTW, I'll be at the Autosport Show on the Friday only. If you don't bump into me there, leave my cakes on the BRSCC Stand [I'll call by at regular intervals to collect and consume].
:D Sorry I can only find a smiley with it's mouth wide open, I need one with a mitt shovelling cake into it.

tyres should be limited to twelve sets per season

blue nose that is a new set per round and does not solve anything...

spot on redracer: I thought the idea was to curb costs not increase them. I don't think I've used 12 sets of tyres in my entire racing career!!

Anyhow, I've just thought of a brilliant idea of how to police the issue of limited sets of tyres. Why can't the tyre manufacturer's dye them in a different colour?

I can see it all now: you can't race with them red tyres because it says 'ere that today's colour is definitely green........!!!!!!!!!

lol what a site.......30 FF1600 coming down the avenue at Oulton with blue tyres. The spectators will all be sick!!!

Maybe limit the sets to 4 NOT 12 this is club racing not National Zetecs.

Just make the tyre compound harder and have dedicated wets as they are so much safer.

nothing will change...and to be honest. I am getting past caring.

Things like weight limits are moaned about because certain drivers at too heavy... this sort of rubbish is "considered" yet club fee's of £100+ tyres at £400 per set, increasing race entry fee's and this sort of things are limited to chat on this message board.

As Diz said let the rich kids through money at the racing....its even more sweet to beat them. Money will always favour the kit the racers use, and if they have that much money to blow a set of tyres per weekend then let them go race in the national zetecs.....or would they have to get by on skill there.

Lets stop try to change things and go racing (BTW I think the tyre limiting is a good thing - but nothing good changes only petty things like weight limitations)

In Zetecs we had things called Tyre forms. On these forms we put the registration numbers of the 2 nominated spares that were to remain spares for the season until such a time that they were needed. (Thruxton) we then had the registration numbers of the 4 tyres we were to use that weekend, and that was it. if any numbers were different then we would be in trouble.

In 1600 to make it safe in the wet we would just need to carry 2 sets, (which most do anyway) register them on the form which can be got from Brian at Avon, and make one set the dedicated wet and one the dedicated dry. it then gets confusing as to when is it allowed to use the wets i spose so maybe its not as simple as when I started writing this!

Bloody hell just let people spend the money if you cant afford it then at least you know why your slower nothing worse then being slower and not knowing why!

matt