Knickerbrook chicane

What do we have to do to get rid of the Knickerbrook chicane, And turn it back into a real corner.

Aren't chicanes a wonderful invention, they really add to everyone enjoyment and improve the racing no end. To those cynics who say that it just a cheap,lazy and unimaginative way to slow down a dangerous part of the course rather than redesign it, I say no....
To those who have not driven Goodwood (yes I know it has one chicane but it does not seem to spoil the flow) or Castle Combe or Oulton (pre - extra chicane implementation)you do not know what you are missing.

Come on Diz your the fountain of information about Oulton.

Knickerbrook chicane is a good challenge keep it how it is.

I do not see a chicane as a challenge for any racer.
It in my veiw it spoils the flow of the cir.cuit

I do agree but Knickerbrook chicane is quite good as it is so important to the lap you have to get it right. I am not sure if you know BN but it is a new one this year?

Any chicane is a stop and go penalty

it is not like a normal chicane as it opens out and you have to get a good exit to get a good pull all the way up Clay Hill

I would still like to take it with just a little bit of a lift

you maybe could but you would need to miss it out!!!

Exactley ? the chicane should be missed out

Having never driven the track without the chicane or even with the old one, i know i am talking with a bit of inexperience. However the new chicane, which i have driven, does seem to represent a new overtaking area. Also agreeeing with Redracer, it is a very important part of the new circuit in getting a good lap time. In addition to that, even tho it may slow the lap down, knickerbrook has caused a fair few accidents in the past and if this chicane can help the racing spectical (with a new overtaking opportunity) in adding the new chicane, whilst making it safer, then i am all for it.

good words dave

Thatis valid point D-Marshall. But Druids has had its fair share of accidents but would you want to put a chicane half way though it?

Knickerbrook was made in to a chicane after the Paul Warwick crash and i was at the corner when it happend and it was aweful. I will all remember it for all the wrong reasons. It was taken flat out without any space to expand the run off. it had to happen some time. Druids is not as fast by any means so it is not needed

Racing to me is how fast you can get from a to b with out slowing down for c (chicane)

Blue nose, i agree that Druids has had a few accidents in the past but i don't think it needs a chicane as it isn't as dangerous as Knicerbrook flat out. I understand your point about chicanes slowing down racetracks and in some cases i agree with you! I doubt anyone would want a chicane in Druids but i do think that knickerbrook needed one and the new one does no harm at all for the racing.

Pauls accident was not a result of the Knickerbrook corner it happend before he arrived. I as a racer like high speed corners, Island is taken flat and there is not many accidents there to my knowledge.I just think there should be an opption for us to try a different format ie the Bikes do not use the chicane.

it may have happend before but he was killed because he was doing 160 mph with a run off of about 30m.

I do not want to try an organ doner machine (Bike) to see what Knicker is like flat please let it be four wheels.

if they got rid of the road behind we could extend the run off and run it at full speed. Imagine coming in to druids after taking KB flat!!! They would then put a chicane in there!!!

I am not against altering circuits where there is a really obvious danger, but a chicane is not the way forward it is just a cheap way to slow it down. If there is a problem then re-design it. Otherwise there will be an incessant creap towards a circuit dotted with chicanes.In the words of Sir Stirling Moss, chicanes are rather "micky mouse".

Druids is lift at 6800,Knicker was a lift for 30 years when men were men in lesser machinery that hurt when you did get it wrong!

Kickstart I could not have said it better?

Kickstart, the new chicane at knickerbrook is not just to slow down the racing as the old one was. However this one has a genuine overtaking opportunity at it, in a place that can be seen by a large amount of the spectators. I couldnt think of a better way to improve racing while making it safer. This is just my opinion.

Knickerbrook is more Minnie mouse?

I understand your point D-Marshall I just think that a flat Knicker would favour the brave and add to the enjoyment of the croud and the racers enjoyment

I agree with David. I really like it as it is a good overtaking point on entry and exit

But would you like to try it flat?

I think its about time we put Jamie Spences Record to bed?

I would love to try it flat but it will not happen!!

It would if we the racers wanted it to

we want to race on the full circuit but they still only let us race on it once. See J Minshaws point on another thread

Once a year is a crime I think our man Diz should sort this out with the powers that be.Who else thinks so?

BN, a flat knickerbrook would be great for all drivers but i do not think it would be great for the crowd with the drivers flying past in single file. Also the full circuit is fantastic from a drivers point of view, but no spectators see us go round island or shell.

should be 50/50 with the Fosters - the other one is ****

When its a full circuit race drivers are turned away because of full grids if it was 50/50 its true it would be more revenue for Octagon The point the croud can not see 30% of the track is not our fault, But in my veiw the croud would still prefare a high speed corner to a minnie mouse one

My daughter has just pointed out to me that croud should be spelt crowd!!!!!!!

I still like the inter circuit Ive done a 1.29 6 in practice pity it was not in a race.

what is your fastest lap on the fosters circuit on ACB10's??? Truthfully

1.4.2 but this year there has been no rain as such just lots of grippy rubber or so i am told If it stays the same this year I can see the times droping into the 1.2odds

I will have to say I don't believe you unless it was on slicks as we had a strong year this year, much faster than when you won and in perfect conditions Hutch got pole with a 1.31.2.....1.6 seconds slower.....

hopfully by me but who knows lets keep our fingers crossed

Ask Stuart Sanders or Rawstern I did it 4 laps to gether On inter they have it on data logger I will better it this year

just remembered the circuit changed last year as KB was made a lot longer and slower

you have not raced on the new circuit? I hear John Loebell is running you?

HAHA thats why it should be removed and made back into a mans circuit

This thread is what racers think of Knickerbrook chicane any views?

Why not take out all chicanes and then we can have oval racing.

Originally posted by blue nose
[BI just think there should be an opption for us to try a different format ie the Bikes do not use the chicane. [/B]

Bikes didn't use the old Knickerbrook chicane, but they do use the new one.:(

You have lost me on that one?

Thanks DB I stand corrected.
I have never used KB without the chicane,But drivers who I know did enjoy the experiance.

I know chicanes are naturally unpopular with racers, but Oulton was left with little choice on whether or not to put the chicane in at Knickerbrook. The deaths of Andrew Colson and Paul Warwick at the corner was leading to calls for the circuit to change or be closed. These were lead by Derek Warwick, who had considerable influence at the time, and the Chester coroner also criticsed the circuit's lack of safety emasures, particularly the run off and entry speed into Knickerbrook. I know I would rather have a circuit, albeit with chicanes, than no circuit at all. Any series of fatal accidents at a track will always lead to changes, as was clear post Imola 1994. The sport will nearly always yield to outside influences when the newspapers are criticising them following an accident, they have little choice. However, I am not a racer, and I know this thread is directed at them in particular.

Originally posted by blue nose
Any chicane is a stop and go penalty Not, in my opinion, all of them. Thruxton makes for superb overtaking opportunities. Obviously I am talking from a spectator's viewpoint, not that of a driver.

More like Thruxton, fewer like Knickerbrook perhaps? Now who in the circuit design thread can analyse what makes one different from the other?

Regards

Jim

Well said mcurtis26.

Chicanes for racers may make the track less appealing but safety is of the utmost importance too.

I am related to the Warwicks and only last year did I have the courage to go down to Knickerbrook as I hate the circuit.

For you racers out there I can understand the thrill and buzz of going flat out but please remember those of us who are left behind after a fatal accident.

For me, I think chicanes have the potential to seperate the men from the boys as much as any other corner. It takes a lot of skill and commitment, (although a differents sort of commitment to taking druids well for instance is needed)to get through the chicanes well, and looking at the new knickerbrook chicane it really adds to the lap.

Drivers who are confident in there car, and where they can put the car, take chicanes in there stride as well as looking at them as excellent overtaking oppourtunities rather than a hinderance.

I have to agree that chicanes don't always take away from the excitement of a track. The Goodwood chicance always made for good racing. I'm sure anyone that was at Oulton when Paul died would agree that the Knickerbrook Chicane should be there.

Originally posted by blue nose
I just think there should be an opption for us to try a different format ie the Bikes do not use the chicane.

Since the new chicane has been in use bikes do use it although the person after whom the chicane has now been named only raced on it at one meeting.

Brands Hatch Leisure then decided to name the chicane, not the corner, in his memory in August 2003 and it should now be referred to as Hizzy's chicane.

:p :D :p :D :p :D :p :D

Why is it that so many contributing to this thread seem to think that the only option to slow down a dangerous part of a circuit is a chicane. I agree with all who say that Knickerbrook was clearly a dangerous corner pre- chicane because the lack of run off was totally disproportinate to the speeds of cars at that point. If there was ample run off and/or a suitable gravel trap then there should not be a problem.
If we racers/officials/spectators etc do not put pressure on circuits to re-design where necessary then eventually we will have circuits dotted with chicanes. I point in particular to Mallory Park, which is one of my favourite circuits, but in my view the esses are dangerous because of the lack of run off space versus the speed involved. What do we think will happen when someone is killed or seriously injured there - you bet - a slow speed chicane, unless a re-design for the better occurs. The corner onto Snetterton's main straight is a clear case in point, was dangerous and has been re-designed and is still far more enjoyable to drive than a chicane.
I do hope that I have not offended anyone - just my passionately held views - there are no winners when a fatality or serious injury occurs

I agree with JnrJnr. A chicane is as much of a challenge to get right as any fast corner. That's the whole point of a race circuit. Varying corners at varying speeds. If it was just about flat out speed, you could go and do Drag Racing. If the circuit has a chicane, then we use it. Make the most of what's in front of you. That's the challenge. Another point would be if every corner was flat out top speed, overtaking would be tricky.

It's not about how big your b@lls are Bluenose. Every racing driver out there can go as fast as each other. The challenge of racing is getting the car set-up for the variety of corners on a given circuit.

Anyway, what's this car I have heard you have bought?

I would still like the option for us to race without the chicane Mr Barfoot an co all enjoyed it the way it was.

I know what you mean, but that's the way it is and we have to make the best of it. It's a tough Championship now. Do you think you are up for it?????

I cant wait to get in the new car and go for it!!!!

incidentally, when is the first black dog day at Oulton again?

Derek Bell went through Knickerbrook without the chicane in the Le Mans Bentley at the Gold Cup meeting 2003 at quite high speed and it was scary to watch, and I assume he was not close to full speed. We were also there in 1991 when Paul Warwick crashed. I can sympathise with the wish to bring the old corner back but it's a bad idea and it isnt going to happen.

And that Speed6 wasn't going that fast..........
You could hear the engine was off cam all around the circuit.
He was tippy-toeing......

I am not proposing that a chicane is the only way to make a dangerous corner safer, but it tends to be the option that many circuits take as it is generally the quickest to implement, which often occurs when there is a knee jerk reaction following a fatal accident. However, I still think that the chicane should stay. With Oulton's future currently being uncertain with the sell off by Octagon, they are not likely to invest the amount of money a re-working of the corner would need, and just removing the chicane is not an option, as a bad accident is likely to do little for the marketability of the circuit to potential buyers.

Realistically, there's absolutely no way that the safety guys and the circuit inspectors at the MSA would even contemplate removing the chicane at Knickerbrook. Especially in light of the terrible tragedy that occured there. I agree with the thoughts of Walshy & Jnr Jnr, a chicane should be regarded as another challenge just as any corner, hairpin, kink , blind brow etc. Surely there should still be the "buzz" of getting the chicane right as any other corner? I suppose in a way we've been fortunate that over the decades Oulton's track hasn't been radically altered yes, I know it's had to keep pace with the increases in demands for safety, but I think it still retains the "character" and presents the challenge that it always has.
You've got to face facts at the end of the day: racing cars corner quicker now, than they did then. I can't be precise with a date but I think early 60's Stirling Moss just failed to set the 100 mph average lap around Oulton: compare that with the average speed of a FF1600 today with 2 chicanes: we aren't that much slower and he was in a F1 car! Circuits have had to change to continue functioning. You can't turn on the TV these days without being bombarded with adverts for accident management companies:"Have you ever been injured in an accident?". How soon will it be before these people have an impact on our sport?

Swift, I suspect that the first legal actions you will see in motorsport (if there have not already been some)will be caused be dangerous driving that leads to the death or serious injury to another competitor. Before anyone jumps up and down please imagine for a moment that your son or daughter is racing and is deliberately knocked off the track by another competitor and suffers serious injury, what other option does the family have if the injured person has a family to support.
In my professional life I have seen several young men who have suffered horrendous and permanent injuries, mainly in rugby, due to the total disregard of the rules of fair play by others.

you could well be right there kickstart. I do believe that there has been one case of a race school settling out of court with a client who crashed one of the school cars. This being at least 12 months after the incident. there may well have been more.

I dont like the new chicane. It's higher speed than the old one, and the corner begins earlier. This reduces the breaking distance and the length of the straight over hilltop, in theory, actually reducing the overtaking opportunity to overtake, but probably (all you racers out there feel free to comment) adding more enjoyment & flow to teh track.

Originally posted by O'Schumacher
I dont like the new chicane. It's higher speed than the old one, and the corner begins earlier. This reduces the breaking distance and the length of the straight over hilltop, in theory, actually reducing the overtaking opportunity to overtake, but probably (all you racers out there feel free to comment) adding more enjoyment & flow to teh track.

In theory, possibly.

However, if you are going to be doing any passing into druids (which is rare in its self) it is done well before the braking area because the possibility of two cars going round druids side by side is not a nice thought.

If your not alongside by the top of clay hill, passing into druids is virtually impossible regardless of entry speed unless you are passing a much slower competitor.

I think the current chicane layout is an excellent substitute to what was a very dangerous corner.

Was KB really flat in pre-chicane days? It seems a bit unlikely to me. I think the present chicane is better than its predecessor, but, I'm with you Blue Nose, the less chicanes the better.

used to perfer (I nearly put "like"!) the old version of Knickerbrook chicane... It was a lot more challenging, at least in a technical way.

The runoff is no where near enough to use on the run from Foultons, but probably not a lot different from the amount at the Esses at Mallory, which some catergories take with a lift or even flat (K-sports). Not sure what that says...

I believe the bikes now do use the new Knickerbrook chicane on the full circuit - I remember Superbikes going through there last summer - they call it/its now called Hissey's?

Knicker Brook in a FF1600 was fourth gear, with, in my case a firm brake....maybe thats where I was going wrong.

I'm sounding like a right doubter of everyone today, but are k sports really flat through the Mallory Esses Graeme? If they are they must also be flat through Gerrards as it is faster than the Esses and aproached slower. Pole in a BARC Renault is high 44's, and we use the brakes into the Esses.I thought K Sports were slower than that. If they are flat everywhere except the hairpin I would expect them to be faster than us.

I tested a K-sports last year - Gerards was a dab and the Esses a good, firm brake; although I was told just a lift for Gerards I couldn't get my head 'round it in just a few laps - my time was 51 seconds. But Dan Eagling's pole the previous year was significantly faster - 46/7 seconds IIRC - it is said he was flat from hairpin to hairpin. K-sports only have 120bhp-ish though, and I think most usually lift or brake for the Esses.

Yes, that explains it. I, for some reason, thought they had more grunt than that.

People who find it hard to use their brakes effectively and accurately always seem to bleat about chicanes, hairpins, difficult corners.. LOL

I would suggest a fully committed driver is using just as much skill and panache around a chicane as one that thinks you have to be doing 120mph inches away from death to be a good driver.

Oulton has both types of corners, and so in my view represents a good balanced challenge.

Perhaps when BN has driven thru the chicane in question he might modify his viewpoint.

But fast corners ARE more more fun...

Try this: name you favourite corner. And if its not a "fourth gear" corner (those of you with lots of gears can extrapolate), I'll eat my balaclava!

Third gear, Hall Bends at Cadwell.
Start eating.

I personally am a big fan of the second gear hairpin ant Oulton.

Would you like dressing and fries with your balaclava sir?

Chicane at Rckingham is 3rd, thats a great corner no matter what anyone says.

4th gear flat out in a FF1600 at Spa's Eau Rouge takes some beating. Also to say in a saloon Knockhill's chicane is good for some 1 wheel racing so it goes to show that chicanes are good fun as well sometimes

Eaten balaclava or not, I find when talking corners with other drivers, virtually without exception their favourites are corners like Church at Thruxton, Craners at Donnington the Esses and Barcroft at Croft etc. I don't think it has anything at all to do with braking ability, it is made up from what you drive, what gives you satisfaction and simply what "turns you on". I personally get very little thrill from braking hard, but I certainly get a lot of thrill from going through a fast corner

Chicane at The Rock (does anyone actually call it that?) is a great corner - but is "fourth gear". Hall Bends? Okay, I'll have a nibble. The second gear hairpin at Oulton (Island rather than the "third" gear Shell I guess)??? - whatever turns you on!!! I've used (overdrive) fifth at Eau Rouge occasionally to try and carry more speed :)

The old-shape Bus Stop at Spa was a good chicane as is Croft, so it is possible, but they still aren't my fave corners. So what makes a "good" chicane?

The ability to be 'creative' with them and to allow overtaking.

I've been trying to think of a Chicane I class as good. The nearest I can get is the one at Croft opposite the pit road and only because it is so flaming difficult to get right. The one at Thruxton has been there as long as I have known, so I don't resent it too much. The Combe chicanes seemed a diabolical intrusion and I haven't been there since. Maybe the dislike stems from knowing what the circuit was like before the addition of the chicane.
Perhaps a "good" chicane is so sweeping that it is flat in fourth and called Esses.

Spa is a mega circuit.Eau Rouge flat,There is nothing like it,You can not wait for the next lap!!!! You just do not get the same thrill at the bus stop!!!

Craner curves at Donnington - mega

.

Bob - maybe you're right about chicanes which are a later intrusion - I never drove Combe pre-chicanes and I almost like them.

The Combe chicanes ARE pants.

Was that a bleat?

Absolutely not. Usually leave that to scousers. LOL

Originally posted by blue nose
Was that a bleat? diz exercises great restraint, refrains from any sheep jokes and withdraws as quickly as possible. :laugh:

You just do not get the same thrill at the bus stop!!! [/B][/QUOTE] .

Especialy when ewes ram a another Merlyn up D arce and are left wid owt ur deposit !!!!!LOL

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Jase.

I don't like chicanes, Knockhill is challenging, its so off camber on the exit that, if you get it wrong you have a sort of delayed action accident.
Couldn't the old K B have been tightened up? This would have achieved the same result.

They did - they put a chicane there!!!!!!!!! 3 corners for the price of one. Some folk are never satisfied.

Lodge at Oulton is always a good corner. Good chances to overtake. Good entry. Fantastic exit through Deer Leap and is probably the most important bend on the circuit as it dictates the start of your next lap. And that's a second gear corner. I agree with most that the fast corners are the real fun ones, but as I said previously, anyone can go fast. The corners such as the chicanes and hairpins, the technical ones are the ones that satisfy when you get them right. You actually gain most of your time on a lap with how you approach these corners.

So what's wrong with any chicane? Circuits have various tests for a driver, straights to test their speed, corners to test gearing and chicanes to test handling. Try the old 'Ring if you really want to show to handle a track, it has all of these in abundance and the fun isn't diminished. OP will continue to be the best we have in the UK to put these to a driver, even after the good doctor takes charge!

Its true any one can go fast exept my nan,But I would bet money she would be on the pace through Knickerbrook.

Your Nan wouldn't be a former tyre dealer in Manchester would she? No but seriously, the new configuration is a great spectacle for the speccys and gives three chances to overtake whereas the old one...well need I say more? See you on 28/2 at Wigan and none of your elbowing folks out of the way!

I lost the deposit an a bit more Jase!!Hahahaha More tea Vicar