the big flips in F1

Ive been trying to find some footage/pics on some of the bigger incidents in F1, particularly the "flips" that have occured.

I have been able to find bits and pieces for the Monza flip (fittipaldi?) from ten years ago.

What I would really like to find info on is a big flip that occured in the 70's, I think, possilby at Kylami. Does anyone know what year it was, the driver, car,etc and where I could possibly find pics and or footage.

Any Info would be much appreciated

Cheers
Hoffy

Hmm - the last thread like this got a somewhat frosty response - not unreasonably in my view - try the Australian equivalent of Men & Motors TV or look out for the Haynes crash videos.....

Thanks for the pre-warning.

Let me put on the record that I have NEVER (except for say a Demo Derby at the local Speedway) attended a Motor Sport event for the crashes. The spectacle of racing will always appeal to me, instead of the heart break of a serious crash

That being said, lets face facts here, crashes are something that happen in F1. I am not trying to glorify these incidents, I am more interested in the why then the wow.

I think it was Spanish GP in 69 that the High wings on the Loti broke (Hill and Rindt). Do a search on Google, or perhaps not.

Or else try Merc and Le Mans from a few years ago, - but not 1955 though, eh!

I know some pilots say any landing you can walk away from is a good one, in the above spectators were killed and the authorities took notice - Racing is still banned in Switzerland after 1955 Le Mans, and after Spain 69 High Wings esp. onto the hubs were banned (cf Lotus 88)

Why - Get your aero-dynamics wrong or run in to the back of someone and you become a pilot with no joy-stick. Where, and on whom, you land is in the hands of the gods

Didn't Brundle walk away (well run to the pits!) from a nasty looking one in Austrailia a few years ago.

Brundle wrote about that shunt in the Observer [Sports Montly supplement] couple of weeks ago.

Can't think of anyone taking flying lessons at Kyalami in the 70s.
In addition to the 69 Spanish GP where the wings came off the Lotuses
there was Rolf Stommelen's crash also at Montjuich in 75 when the wing
came off the Hill Lola. Was there something about that circuit, which
was pretty bumpy, that imposed loads not registered elsewhere?

One that I remember was Patrese's Williams at Estoril (in 1992, I think). He was challenging Berger and about to pull out when Gerhard pulled across to go into the pits. Patrese hit the back of the McLaren and flipped over, just missing a bridge. He got out shaken but unhurt. I think the accident had a bigger impact on Berger who thereafter always tried to make it very clear when he was going to come in.

Fittipaldi's was at Monza in 1993. He hit the back of his team-mate, flipped, and landed on his wheels and crossed the line.

Am not sure about Kyalami though.

Thanks anyway guys

It may not have necessarily been F1, but Im sure it was a formula car (or at a long shot a sports car)

I remember seeing footage for this some time ago, where or when I can't remember (possibly an early "Havoc" video??). I do remember the footage was very grainy

The reason I say Kyalami is a from memory it happened on a long down hill straight section.

Didn't Manfred Winklehock have a big flip/crash over a crest in an F2 race sometime in the late 70's? Think that was on a 'Best of Havoc' video which i saw years ago... Sorry, don't know any specific details on the year, track etc.

I'll try and dig the video out - dunno if ive still got it though!

Originally posted by hoffy
Thanks for the pre-warning.
I have NEVER attended a Motor Sport event for the crashes.

Originally posted by hoffy
(possibly an early "Havoc" video??).

Just the video's then :rolleyes:

hoffy, you're not thinking about Tom pryce's fatal accident at Kyalami in 1977 are you? There's some pretty nasty gruesome footage of that awful crash available, which I personally have no wish to see again. That occurred on the main straight approaching the first corner, involving a marshal running across the track But I don't beleive the car flipped, just out of control for obvious reasons...

What about Ricardo Patrese in 1991 at Estoril? That was seriously scary!

Originally posted by Peter Mallett
What about Ricardo Patrese in 1991 at Estoril? That was seriously scary!
Peter, I think you meant the accident in 1992 that krt917 mentioned.

I think Jeremy's right that hoffy could be referring to Tom Pryce's tragic accident at South Africa in 1977. I have never seen the footage, and after reading people's comments who have seen it, I don't wish to :(

I dont think its Pryces as having unfortunately seen the footage he didnt flip.

Ive got a feeling it may be Manfred Winklehock at the Nurburgring in F2 as it fits the desciption mentioned.

no, wasn't the pryce incident.

Probably the Winklehock one at the ring.

And no, I dont own any Havoc vids. ;)

They actually used to show it on a loop at a night club I used to go to a few years ago

oh thanks for the info guys, I can now go and search!!

Originally posted by Patrese256
Peter, I think you meant the accident in 1992 that krt917 mentioned.

I think Jeremy's right that hoffy could be referring to Tom Pryce's tragic accident at South Africa in 1977. I have never seen the footage, and after reading people's comments who have seen it, I don't wish to :(

Sorry, hadn't spotted the previous reference. And yes '92.

Most races Andrea de Cesaris was in involved a flip too.....;)

I'm no historian, but I can't recall any big flips at Kyalami either.

I was on the pit wall at Kyalami during the Pryce accident down the main straight, but (thankfully) i didn't actually see it happen. Only saw it on TV two days later. It was horrible. Those days TV producers really had no clue about people's feelings. I remember the same clip repeated over and over...

Now can we kill this thread?

Pierre,

You certainly put the case for closure but there is an interesting point to this. Peter Collins lost his life when his car "flipped" at the Nurburgring in '58. But it was due to mechanical forces.

When one looks at the others mentioned in this thread it is clear that rather than a mechanical impact the "flip" was caused by the very thing that should keep the car on the road. I mean the aerodynamics.

In the case of Hill and Rindt, the loss of the wings turned the car into a flying machine. Patrese was unfortunate in that he rode over the back wheel of Berger's car and his wings (which were not removed) apparently acted in the opposite way to that which they should.

I agree with your general point Peter, but am not sure if it specifically applies to the Patrese accident. I may be wrong, but I thought that in such a case the wings just wouldn't do anything. Once the car is at a certain angle (in this case due to riding over another wheel) the air will catch the large surface area that is the bottom of the car and flip it over, irrespective of the aerodynamics (except, possibly, cars with ground effect).

Any thoughts?

Originally posted by paulzinho
I dont think its Pryces as having unfortunately seen the footage he didnt flip.

Ive got a feeling it may be Manfred Winklehock at the Nurburgring in F2 as it fits the desciption mentioned.

Yes, Paulinho, it was Manfred Wilkenhock's March 802-BMW who took off at the Nürburgring in a race for the European Formula 2 Championship in 1980 - conveniently, at the Flugplatz.


Originally posted by exilegaas
I think it was Spanish GP in 69 that the High wings on the Loti broke (Hill and Rindt). Do a search on Google, or perhaps not.

(...)

Yes, that was the 1969 Spanish Grand Prix.

Let me ask a very pedantic question: why people write "Loti" as the plural of Lotus? As far as I know lotus is not a Latin word, so "loti" should not be its plural - but rather lotuses...

Or not?

Cheers,

Muzza

P.S.: English is not even my fourth language, so I guess I am not in the position to question you, exilegaas - take it as a mere curiosity of mine... :)

Blimey, how many languages do you speak!!

As a Dutchman it’s not always easy to understand what a discussion is about when people use these strange words. It may be easy if English is your (first) language, but it’s not easy for me to understand. It’s such a shame. I always understood that this is an international forum and that we are supposed to use English as the common language on this forum. I noticed once that one of the moderators warned somebody that contributions should be written in English. I always try to do my best. But sometimes I don’t understand what (English) people are ‘talking’ about because they mock up their own language. Please, pay attention to this.

Oh, and yes, I think this 'big flip'thing is about Winkelhock on the Ring. I have it on (a Havoc) video and whenever I run this video it allways amazes me how he get's away with it.

Ops... I did not mean to start a big discussion on the plural of the world "lotus" - even though I would sincerely appreciate if one of you that speak English as your mother tongue could clariry that. It is a curiosity, that's all.

Paulinho, I speak five languages and I can understand/chat other two. Rather than resulting of talent or skill, this is a consequence of the many moves my family did when I was young - and later, as an adult, I engaged in an international career that made me hop continents a few times too. So learning a new language, although always a pleasant activity, stemmed out of survival needs...

(I am answering in the form of a posting rather then by private message as my original remark, intended to be somewhat self-deprecating, now seems arrogant as I re-read it! My apologies for that.)

Muzza, perhaps I was overreacting a bit, sorry for this. I'm not pointing on you for this, so please don't feel it as I attacked you on this. I just get a bit frustrated that sometimes (as I feel it, to many times) contributors use strange words. It's not easy for seomeone like me (not having English as a first language) to understand everything. I think the strenght of ten-tenths is that it CAN be an international forum, for people who understand the basics of the language.

I think that is fair enough Dutch chap. We do need reminding sometimes because it is very easy to get carried away, and become careless, when we are having a good debate. I have a huge amount of respect for anyone who can speak several languages as I have never been very good at them myself (a problem I think that I share with many Brits).

As for 'Loti'; this one interests me too. I have always thought that it was Lotuses, but even in commentaries they sometimes get called Loti.

I believe that the "Loti" references are an affectation or maybe shorthand. "Lotuses" looks a bit clumsy in print.
As far as I can remember, journos started using it years ago in race reports and it's sort of stuck.

Hey, Dutch Chap,

No problem, absolutely! I did not feel "attacked" by you at all - quite the opposite: I understand your point, and I think that the tone of my first message is the one that was incorrect.

Thanks to krt917 and johnw for their considerations on the "Loti vs. Lotuses" question.

Cheers,


Muzza

:banghead:Loti/Lotuses - whatever, but you did know what I meant, and it would have been enough for a search on Google.
A pic - mid air (http://www.atlasf1.com/2000/spn/preview/jones.html) :(

A search for Le Mans CLR Mercedes 1999 gives TheFlying Merc (http://www.968.net/images/images/FlyingMercedes.mpeg) mpeg, based on the EuroSport TV Transmission :eek: