Frank Sytner Group A BMW 635???.

I have recently acquired a Group A BMW 635 that Frank Sytner brought to New Zealand in 1985 or end of 1984. As the car is currently being given a birthday I am keen to find out any information regarding it's history and past liveries. My early information is limited to the car being a factory built car in 1983, no. E24 RA1 22, and was supplied to BMW France for the national series. I believe Frank Sytner may have campaigned the car in Britain in 1984, before bringing it to New Zealand. To my knowledge the car was white in colour. Can anyone help me with any information that may relate to this car???

Is this a LHD or RHD variant Dougal M, a RHD Sytner car in the hands of Charlie OBrien made it to Bathurst in 1985...

The car is still LHD and I believe the car hasn't left NZ since 1985. It has passed through the hands of Graham Lorimer and Ken Smith prior to myself...

In 1986 a silver 635Csi in the colours of DSIR NZ appeared at Bathurst with Graham Lorimer and Phil Mhyre aboard.

The race results are Here (http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jong/Races/1986%20Bathurst.html), the team ended 20th outright..

Dougal, I can get some materials from Autosport, let me know if you need it....

Thanks Fausto, anything would be appreciated.....

If it's the one he drove in the Donington ETCC round in 1984/5 I may have some photos of it. I think he used a regular BTCC car fitted with long range tanks. Since '84 was my first season as a spectator I may remember that incorrectly, though.

The car still has a long range tank in it, so well may be the one. I would appreciate any photos. The car was raced to a 2nd place in the 1985 Wellington Street race which was held in January of that year, so any action in your country would have had to have been in 1984. This 2nd placing has been queried over the years, as the time keeping system threw a leg out of bed in the last laps and it is now thought the car actually won the race, but the boys in the Volvo 240t got the claim to fame....

This would have to be imported late ,85 in 84 BMW UK campaigned two 635 but RHD for Vince Woodman. James Weaver run by Dave Cook & Pete Clark. A further one was built by Ted Grace.raced in 84 by ? ? Not sure
Synter drove lhd 635 in some of the ,85 etc events so it would have been imported for Bathurst 85. If a French car it would have been a Rene Metge car

Dougal, you're a lucky man - I'd love an original racing 635CSI. Hope you have Jeremy Walton's book on the 6 series; it does have one picture of Sytner driving a LHD 635 in 1984, in white, carrying the race no.9 and various sponsor decals - Chartered Trust Finance, GSI Systems, Radio Trent etc, as well as the Sytner Alpina logo across the top of the windscreen.

Thanks Norm, there were 25 cars built by the factory in 1983, of which 4 went to BMW France and I assume all 25 were in LHD. Certainly there were some RHD cars built in Britain and also several cars built in Australia by Frank Gardiner with JPS sponsorship, though some of these were LHD. I believe there was 2 main teams in France at that time.

John Turner ... oops you could be right here. The Ted Grace car I mentioned above could be the car in your picture. It was campaigned by amongst others Hans Stuck in ,83 sposnsored by Charlsemore a Coventry BMW dealer. However this would not be the car Dougal has. A trip to the loft to get the old Autosports is required.

Maybe you would not think I was that lucky if you could see how many pieces the car in right now.
I have the book on order John, but I'll hurry the bookshop up a bit now, with that piece of news. This may well be the car in question. Unfortunately Frank has had so many cars over the years, he can't now remember which was which!! Thanks for this information.

The Hans Stuck car was later owned by Nigel Smith here in the UK. I remember doing some laps of a local airfield in it

I hope i can be of a little help here.

The car Frank ran in 1983/84 was a left hooker i believe. The CC (GB) run cars were indeed right hookers. One was sold to Mike Newman who ran it in '85/6/7 BTCC. One may have gone to Brian Chatfield. The spare ex Eggenberger car, don't know where it went?

The lhd car was i think totalled in the 1984 TT at Silverstone (the infamous 'dead' car park at Woodcote) by Whizzo Williams. This was rebuilt and may well have been run by Frank in '85 BTCC again, prior to being sold as you have mentioned. I am not sure which of the two cars is yours, Dougal

Frank entered a second car in that race and for the last 2 BTCC rounds driven by David Sutherland ( not sure which side the driver sat on in this one. Ted Grace built Sytner's cars for him.

The Hans Stuck/Cheylesmore car that was driven by Stuck in '83 was driven by Jonathan Palmer at the '83 TT and was then run by Bob Sparshott in the '84 BTCC for David Kennedy.I think this is the one that Peter Buxtorf pranged at Thruxton before Nigel Smith had it?

Hope history helps sir and good luck with the car, must be fab!

Sytner must have still had 2 635s in 1985, as he ran a pair at both of the British ETCC rounds that year- the second car was for Hamish Irvine and- I think- John Clark at Donington, and leased to a pair of South Africans (Tony Viana and can't recall the other) for the TT

Originally posted by GTRMagic
In 1986 a silver 635Csi in the colours of DSIR NZ appeared at Bathurst with Graham Lorimer and Phil Mhyre aboard.
The race results are Here (http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jong/Races/1986%20Bathurst.html), the team ended 20th outright..

According to a 1986 Bathurst annual, this was an ex-Eggenberger 1983 car, which had been driven by Graham Crosby in NZ before Lorimer bought it- but there's a photo of the car in the book which shows it as rhd. Did Lorimer ever own more than one 635?

The same book refers to John English and Glenn McIntyre running an ex-Sytner 635 (but again rhd) at Bathurst that year- leased from Charlie O'Brien, and one of a pair (one rhd, one lhd) originally imported by O'Brien and Erle McRae for Bathurst 85 and the 86 ATCC.
If both of these were ex-Sytner (I've got the corresponding 85 book which might help, but it's at my parents', 200 miles away, so can't look it up...), could one be the lhd car as described by chunterer?
Dougal's mention of the car being raced at Wellington in Jan 85 might possibly rule that one out, as it only leaves 2-3 months for it to be rebuilt after the 84 TT shunt and shipped to Australia

The good news is I've found the photos.

The bad news is they're no help, sorry. Lots of Bastos Rovers, Schnitzer and CiBeEmme 635s, Volvo 240Ts and even a few Alfas and Toyotas. Sadly Frank's Beemer appears in only one picture, from the back, three quarters obscured by a Peugeot 205. About all I can tell you from that is that the back was plain white.

Thanks for youe efforts Woolley.
KA - there is an Ex-Eggenburger car in NZ - it is the first of the 635s, a T car, but not sure if it is factory car no. 1 or not. This car is left hook as well.
Thanks chunterer - you guys have certainly followed your racing well over the years. I have a feeling that Frank ran 2 cars in 84. This car is fairly straight for a racecar so possibly isn't one that had a decent hit, but may just be well repaired. I've not heard of Ted Grace, but I like his tastes is race car construction....it still has the electric windows in it!!

Dougal M. I have just found a photo of Frank's car taken at Brands Hatch in August 1984. It is definitely LHD with all the sponsors logos mentioned above.
Drop me a PM and I will email the photo to you.
Cheers
Glyn

Don't know if this helps, taken from the stands at Silverstone, spring 1985. BTCC support race to the International Trophy, the first ever F3000 race. Excuse the fence blocking the view.
Frank is alongside Barry Sheene's Supra.
Just noticed in the background, the guy to the left is the late Derek Ongaro from the RACMSA, with Barrie 'Whizzo' Williams - who is probably telling him a joke knowing Whizzo!

Taken from the 1984 Marlboro Championship Finals Programme. This looks to be the same car as Andrew has posted above. Sytner chasing Dave Brodie's Colt..somewhere at Silverstone earlier in the season

This one is from 1983. British GP Programme. Again a left hooker. Sytner is entered as car 19 Grace International Racing. Hans Stuck is entered as car 20 Cheylesmore BMW

Thanks for all photos posted.
Andrew's photo if taken in Spring 85 (assume this to be March->May) probably rules this particular car out, as my car was in NZ doing the Nissan Mobil 2 race series of the Wellington Street race in Jan 85 and Feb 85 for the final round at Pukekohe. I have yet to verify that the car has remained NZ since, but believe this to be so.
Chris's first photo looks to be of a different car as the signage seems to be reversed on the side of the car - Chartered Trust Finance being on the front guard as opposed to the rear and Sytner on the rear instead of the front, although it isn't hard to change signage, especially if any repair took place. This car is a good possibility.
Chris's second raises a few problems in that I have no idea how long the car was in France, though possibly I might have something on that soon.
Great to see some of these photos.
Many thanks...

I may be wrong on the date thinking about it. It could be 84.I'll have to check the race programmes when I get a chance. Which year was it when Sheene raced the Supra?

Andrew, the pic of Sheene & Sytner on the grid fits for 1985 according to my programme and grid notes.

Yes Sheene raced the ex Percy Supra in '85.

Dougal, no worries mate. I used to love Group A and this is why i got so into motor racing to begin with.

The TT shunted car of '84 was most probably rebuilt and judging by Andrew's picture at Silverstone, could well be it, as it just has the look of some tampering about it?! However i don't have the facts, sorry. If this is the case then it won't be the one you've got!

Out of interest, what's the colour scheme on yours at the mo?

I suppose there is also an outside chance that Fearless Frank himself may know what happened to the 635's?

Mike Newman still owns his ex BMW GB car

Hi Chunterer,
Below is the cars current appearance...

Sorry, having large amounts of operator problems (beginners incompetence) attaching an image..will try more!!!

here is a shot of Frank at the August Bank holiday round of 1984 at Brands Hatch.

Sorry about the quality of the photo, still a bit to learn about posting these on the forum.
BTW, many thanks to Snapper Baz and falcemob for resurrecting a thread in Motorsoprt Art & Photography which has allowed me to post this.
Glyn

That looks like identical livery to the Donington one I have, although the amount of car in my picture makes it hard to tell. I'm failry sure the ETCC round I was at was '84, but not positive - it was the first 'proper' race I ever went to following the rallysprint the previous Autumn.

Sytner first drove a 635 at Silverstone on 12 June 1983. This is what Autosport had to say about the car.

Frank Sytner pronounced himself well pleased with the way his BMW 635CSi ran at Silverstone in last Sunday's Group A race, and is looking forward to the rest of the season.
The race was not without its problems, though, as the car was a real handful to drive. "It was understeering through every corner," he said.
The car has been built with full ETC rounds in mind and has on-board jacks and a full quick refuelling system. Sytner plans to take in most of the remaining rounds of the British championship as well as the TT, where he will share the driving with Brian Muir. Muir, who was on hand with advice at Silverstone, has done most of the testing of the car.
But no amount of testing can throw up problems like a race can. The car is left-hand-drive, and Sytner could not read his pit board properly! "All I could see was the car's A-pillar and part of the board. On more than one occasion I thought I was on my last lap. We shall just have to get a bloody great board for next time..."

In the Autosport season review there is this about the car.

Sytner's car was prepared and run by Ted Grace Racing who, united with Malcolm Gartlan, made a welcome return to the series. Until Sytner's backing arrived - and effectively saved the car from being a permanent non-runner - it had been hoped to run the car for Brian Muir. Muir did get to drive the car - in the TT - but tragically died on his way home from that meeting after a heart attack.

Malcolm Gartlan that was involved with Galaxies and ex Alan Mann Mustangs and Falcons in the sixties?

Oh and Dougal, sorry you're having probs posting images, i'm not an expert unfortunately!

Hope you can get a couple on soon?

Glyn's post above may be helpful?

Couple of photos of Sytner, the first from the 1983 TT, the second from the BTCC race at Donington in May 1985 during the ETCC meeting. Hope they are of use.

Donington 85...

I saw the 635 at Puke in 1990 in a club race -the owner had visions of granduer on its value when i spoke with him
ie wanted the $$$ A FULLY RESTORED CAR WOULD MAKE FOR WHAT LOOKED LIKE A VERY TIRED CAR !!
NOT SURE IF KENNY SMITH STILL HAS 1 635 TO SELL OR IF ITS THE CAR YOU NOW HAVE

Dougal M, I have a really good pic of your car at the 85 Welly street race, coming out of the hairpin, if you're interested in seeing it. Was this car later painted yellow?

You should speak to David Towe. You'll find his details here. He owns an ex JPS M3 and has a very good knowledge of the 635s and the M3s, and their woven histories.
http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=1078079#post1078079

Check out the 'Historics Awesome Stuff' thread under Australasian Touring Car area on this site.

My dad has been helping Mike Newman with his 635CSi this year. Its going to be out at Donington later this year. My dad used to mechanic for Mike back when he was racing in BTCC untill he set up a Formula Ford team with Jonathan Lewis.

I'll try to get some information about it. Has anyone got any pictures?