Brabham BT21

This will probably instigate a full scale survey of pre BT28 Brabhams, but...
Can anyone help with the identity of this particular BT21

1967 Lythgoe for Alan Rollinson, then used by Dave Berry after Rollinson was injured at Ingliston [nearly typed Islington, it's hairy up the Essex Road...]
Probably delivered early season

1968 Goodwin Racing for Cyd Williams

1969 Intially retained by Goodwin then sold to John Buxton

Kept by Buxton to January 1972 when he has the car for sale in Autosport, then to Bob Howlings
Buxton ran it in F.Atlantic in 1971, hence my interest.

Chris

I have an ex-Rollinson B21 (the ex-Rollinson B21?) with Spencer Elton in 1972, then Gerry Wilkins 1975.
Cue Ted Walker?

So many Rollinson BT21s!

I think this is a different car [Possibly BT21B-28]
1968: Lythgoe for Rollinson once he gets better
1969: Norman Foulds
1970: Bob Howlings [MN 26.3.70, p. 19] then to Spencer Elton
1975: Gerry Wilkins

Chris

at least I tried

1967 British GP Silverstone - David Berry in the Frank Lythgoe Racing BT21
1968 British GP Brands Hatch - Berry in Lythgoe BT21 when he finished 8th.

Sprint BT21 Chassis
Yeovilton 29/03/70 Spencer Elton 1.6 Brabham-Ford/Vegantune TC BT21C-6
Curborough 18/04/71 John Ravenscroft 1.6 Brabham-Ford/Vegantune BT21A-9
Curborough 18/04/71 Tony Bradwell 4.5 Brabham-Oldsmobile BT21 Quattro
Thruxton 08/08/71 David Pullen 1.6 Brabham-Ford TC BT21B
Yeovilton 25/03/73 Spencer Elton 1.6 Brabham-Ford/Vegantune TC BT21/30
Curborough 15/04/73 Ron Hartley 1.6 Brabham-Ford BT21A
Oulton Park 03/04/76 Dennis Chorley 1.6 Brabham-Ford TC BT21B
Blackbushe 20/08/78 Leslie Stone 1.6 Brabham-Ford BT21B
Ramsay Road, I-O-M 20/06/87 Robin Boucher 1.1 Brabham-Ford/Holbay BT21
Curborough 21/04/91 Tim Barrington 1.6 Brabham-Ford TC BT21C-6

November 2004 Motor Sport and Tim Barrington has the BT21C up for sale.

Any help in identifying Chassis Numbers on the above would be appreciated.

Brabham mechanic Bob Ilich returned to WA with a BT21 in bits. Raced it successfully with great duels against Craig McAllister in a Macon F2 & Elfin 622 but it had an argument with the armco just in front of the old tower at Wanneroo - driven by Col Eckert (?) at the time - no idea what happened after that.

We have at least 6 BT21 series cars over here , but to keep Chris in suspense I will list slowly.

One will sort out one of your sprint cars , namely BT21A-9 .

Sold new to Tony Griffith August 1967 , and quoting letter from Mr. Griffiths to the then owner Max Lane of Ausrtralia , dated 6th. March 1984.
Used mainly for hillclimbs , but from time to time used in races at Silverstone. Eng. was Ford Vegantune Twin -cam, 1588cc. British Racing Green [ specifically Winkleman green ] with a white nose band.
The car was sold in June 1969 to Tom Elton who owned a B.L. dealership in Westbury Wilshire.

We also have a letter dated 6-6-1984 from George Thornton at Brabhams advising car sold to Mr. Griffiths on 5-8-1967 , with eng. no. C13670609 and gearbox no. H5/163.

In the period 1969 - 1974 the following owners , John Brown, John Ravenscroft and then Rodger Hartley .

We then have a letter from Geoffrey Jackson advising he purchased car from Roger Hartley on 7th April 1974 complete with eng and gearbox, he sold car as a rolling chassis to Peter Bloore , date not specified.
He also advised another name connected with car prior , that being Chris Court. Jacksons letter dated 2nd August 1985.
Peter Bloore appears to have owned car 1981-2 thence Chris Crawford 1982-4 , then purchased by Max Lane from Australia , the restoration was primarily done in the U.K. before the car came over here , Max Lane owned the car untill 1991 , when it was sold to Junee resident Mike Broso , who used the car continuosly untill sold to Canberra resident Ron Coath who retains.

Bryan.

Bryan & Steve

Chris Court ran this BT21A in 1970, according to my notes from MN

Chris

Cavvy,

Yes the Bob Illich car has always been known as a BT21B.
Bob worked at Repco engines and also at Byfleet, and during 1968 built up the car and returned to Australia with the car, it was at that time fitted with a very rare Cosworth S.C.B. a 1500cc version of an S.C.A .

No chassis plate known to have been fitted , but always known by it's AM number 283.

Through various hands as you describe and at this time and since circa 1984 with Bill McCrorie , who obtained the originall Cosworth SCB and refitted it to the car.

Bryan.

Thanks Bryan,
I knew the powerplant was different but the years.....

I threaten to get to a historic meet in WA in 05.

BT21C-3,

A bit light on early history , as it is an ex U.S.A. car .
Letter from Fred Opert 2000, advises almost sure one of the cars he bought in in 1968, appears to have gone to ,
Coleman.
Campbell.
Mike Whelan.
Mike Fitzgerald.
Wayne Taylor [ restoration 1994-8 ].
Mark Leonard 1998-99.
John Ashwell 1999 , resident of Casino , N.S.W. Australia.

Also in letter from Opert, he advises he had his own special car which would have been ch. no. 2,3,4 or 5, this car had a Hewland Mk 7 , 6 speed and an 1100cc Cosworth S.C.C fuel injected engine.

BT21C-12.

Another U.S.A. car , seems to be new to Mr. C.H.Adams of Springfield Illinois .
Returned to Australia in March 1983 with Gary Simkin , when he returned from working in the states , sold to George Goodare of Sydney , rebuilt and used in Historic racing ever since , 1989-1995 Mr. Howard Blight of Sydney, 1995-1998 Mr. Rob. Bailey of Victoria , 1-12-1998 to Mr. Nereo Dizane [ the late ] still with his estate.

Prior to Howard Blight car was owned by Peter Addison of Sydney .

Bryan.

Bryan,

John is a Dr in Lismore....search using his name on AtlasF1....he is also a lucky lucky boy after the shunt at Turn 9 Eastern Creek in front of me....:-(

CH Adams would presumably be Charlie Adams who drove a BT21C in the Continental Championship in 1968. See here (http://www.oldracingcars.com/F5000/results/result.asp?RaceID=B268) and here (http://www.oldracingcars.com/F5000/results/result.asp?RaceID=MI68).

Allen

Charlie Adams indeed used this car all the way into 1970 in FB races I think - either that or he gets another BT21C, which seems perverse...

Didn't solve the Buxton car yet, but as Brabham built about 100 BT21s in various guises I'm sure we've got hours of endless fun to go with this thread!

Chris

According to F1R F3 Fact Book 27 March 1967 Silverstone A Rollinson is in BT21-18. Entered by F Lythgoe. However, 23 June 1968 Cyd Williams is shown as BT21-49 so I'm not sure where BT21-18 fits in 1968?


RAP

RAP, who is the entrant on the Cyd Williams 21-49 in June 68?
Is it Goodwin Racing or Frank Williams?

Chris

23 June 68 Mallory Park Cyd Williams Goodwin Racing BT21-49
20 July 68 Brands Hatch Cyd Williams Goodwin Racing BT21-49
14 Sept 68 Oulton Park Cyd Williams Goodwin Racing BT21-49
All per F1R F3 Fact Book

RAP

The following is a list of drivers/entrants/chassis types from the three Formula Three races I saw in 1967/68:

15/07/67 Silverstone - Push Rod Trophy Race

Ken Crook - Bernard Lewis Racing - BT18
David Berry - Frank Lythgoe Racing Ltd - BT15
Barrie Maskell - A.G.Dean (Racing) Ltd - BT15
Peter Westbury - F.I.R.S.T. - BT21 Felday
Derek Bell - F.I.R.S.T. - BT21 Felday
Alan Rollinson - David Bridges - BT21 Holbay (stated as being a 'new' BT21)
Peter Gethin - Sports Motors (Manchester) Ltd - BT21
Chris M.M. Williams - Chris Williams Racing Ltd - BT21 Holbay
Graham Coaker - driver - BT18
Chris Meek - Gilbert Baird - BT18
Peter Gaydon - Special Motor Racing Team - BT18
Chris Jackson - Barry Payne Auto Services - BT21 Holbay
David Morgan - driver - BT10/15
David Williamson - P. & M. Racing Preparations - BT18
Mike Walker - Frank Manning Racing Ltd - BT21
Peter Fattorini - driver - BT21
Richard Knight - Winfield Racing Organisation - BT21
Mike Knight - Ian Walker - BT21
Michael Keens - driver - BT21
Harry Stiller - Lucas (Engineering) Ltd - BT21
Tetsu Ikusawa - Motor Racing Stables - BT21

25/05/68 Monte Carlo 10th Grand Prix de Monaco F3
Wayne Mitrchell - Paul B Watson
Carlos Giro - driver
Renne Ligonnet - Pennelier Racing Organisation
Jean-Pierre Cassegrain - BP France
Patrick Champin - driver
Alain Franceschi - driver
Philippe Vidal - driver - BT21
Jean-Francois Gerbault - driver
Harry Stiller - Ken Bass Racing Limited - BT23C Lucas (F2 ex-works/Troberg)
Philip Tose - Ian Walker Team Celerity
Peter Westbury - Ian Walker Team Celerity - BT21B IWR
Richard Burton - Frank Williams Racing Cars Ltd
Michael Keens - P & M Racing Preparations
David Williamson - P & M Racing Preparations
Peter Gethin - Frank Lythgoe Racing Ltd - BT21B
Francesco Ghezzi - driver
Ulf Svensson - driver - BT21B Lucas
Egert Haglund - Team Baltzar Racing
Per Jonas Qvarnstrom - driver - BT21B Lucas
Peter Korda - The Jurg Dubler Racing Organisation
Bernard Baur - Midland Racing Team Switzerland
Georges Schafer - Wicky Racing Team
NB all unassigned chassis were either BT21 or BT21B!

20/07/68 Brands Hatch The Clearway Trophy Race
Kinny Lall - Paul B. Watson - BT21
Tony Lanfranchi - Alan Fraser - BT21
Richard Burton - Frank Williams Racing Cars - BT21B
Tetsu Ikusawa - Frank Williams Racing Cars - BT21B
David Berry - Frank Lythgoe Racing Ltd. - BT21B
Michael Beuttler - driver - BT21
Barrie Maskell - driver - BT21B
Michael Keens - driver - BT21B
Peter Westbury - Ian Walker Team Celerity - BT21B
Alex Trotter - P & M Racing Preparations Ltd. - BT21B
David Williamson - P & M Racing Preparations Ltd. - BT21B
Cyd Williams - Goodwin Racing - BT21

RAP

Sorry, more questions! Is 21-18 the only Lythgoe car in 1967 used by Rollinson, or is a number given for that new car highlighted by Steve as appearing in July? Or is there a late season car? 49 is the highest chassis no I have for BT21s.

Is a number given for the 21 used by George Lewis in 1968 which was also entered by Goodwin Racing?

I think that 21-49 is likely to be the Buxton car. This car is now in the USA and the owner had remarked that it was 'ex Williams' but I'm guessing now that this could as easily be Cyd as Frank!

Chris

Unfortunatly F1R book has no chassis numbers for BT21 for any date in 67 other than 27 March so can't help with first Q

BT21 numbers in 68 are -
35 Cassegrain 23 June
32 Jacobsson 23 June
49 Cyd Williams 23/6, 20/7, 14/9
15 D Powell 23/6
5 N Foulds 23/6 ( D Bridges Rcg)
20 H Ganley 23/6
46 P Tose (I WAlker/Celerity) 23/6
42 K Lall (P WAtson) 20/7
12 M Beuttler 20/7
2 N Goodwin (Goodwin Rcg) 20/7 & 17/5/69
16 J Campbell 14/9

43 R Burton (F Wiliams) 20/7 Listed as BT21B in one place but BT21 chassis number so could be either? I have BT21B as a mark up in my Prog (I was there)
Doesn't really answer any of your questions I'm afraid but of interest anyway, I hope.(Don't worry about asking - pooling our info is the only way to answer some questions),

RAP

On the subject of BT21 production numbers, I have a production list from MRD dated 13 Sep 1967 that lists 2 BT21s from 1966 and 47 from 1967. Up to that point, just 10 Ford 1600cc libre BT21As had been built, a single F3 BT21B and the Ford 1600cc libre BT21C was shown as at "Drawing Stage".

However, a handwritten note at the foot of the page if headed "Additional cars built Aug Sep 1967 to 16th Jan 1968" and shows a single F3 BT21 under the 1968 column.

For comparison, the Lawrence book (p205) shows production as 4 - 45 - 1, so at least it agrees on the single 1968 car.

So if 50 BT21s were built, I'd expect the highest number to be 50 or 51.

Allen

OK

I think I solved my query about the Buxton car.
There are several more obscure BT21s in Atlantic still to work out, but I thought that I would have a stab at working out those 50 or so BT21s, based on RAPs chassis numbers and my own notes from the press about who bought whose car:

BT21-1. December 1966. to Frank Williams used by Viannini in Temporada.

2: December 1966. Charlie Crichton Stuart in Temporada, then to Natalie Goodwin as her own car. Retained to end 69 then to Tony Birchenough.

3: Jan 67 Felday for Derek Bell. 1968 Jeff Holdrup

4: ?

5: March 67 Anglo Spanish Racing for Adan Czartoryski. 1968 David Bridges for Norman Foulds

6: ? By 1970 in Australia with Graham Baker

7: By 1968 in NZ with Graham Harvey

8: By 1969 run by Bill Stone with t/c engine

9: March 67 Anglo Spanish racing for Brian Classick, 1968 maybe Peter Hanson, 1969 to Cam Mackenzie [Canada] for FB races and still in Vancouver or thereabouts today

10: ?

11: March 67 Kurt Ahrens, 1969: Willi Deutsch

12: March 67: MRS for Harry Stiller and Tony Lanfranchi, sold to Charles Lucas and used by Stiller, Bev Bond and Lucas. 1968 Mike Beuttler, 1969 sold to Fred Opert along with Jupp's BT21

13: Probably not built

14: ?

15: March 67 for Peter Westbury, 1968 Davey Powell, 1969 - 70 Ronnie Mackay, 1971 Vivian Candy

16: March 67 Richard Burton, 1968 John Campbell, 1969 Campbell to Wayne Mitchell and then on to James Hunt. 1970 Terry Harmer

17: ?

18: March 67 Lythgoe for Alan Rollinson and then Dave Berry

19: March 67 Ian Walker Racing for rent a drivers including Revson, Nunn and Hitchcock 1968 Phil Tose [still owned by Walker?] then 1969 Mike Stow and also used by Graham Coaker and David Cole

20: March 67 Howden Ganley, retained 1968

21: March 67 Mike Keens

22 - 27 not a clue

28: Winfield Racing for Mike Knight then 1968 to Len Gibbs and retained

29: April 67 Mike Walker, 1968 - 69 Chris Court

30: Chris Lambert with FVA engine. 1968 damaged in trailer accident, sold damaged to Joseph Erlich and rebuilt for Bev Bond/George Dixon, may not race in this format, 1971 Jonny Dimsdale for Atlantic races

31: April 67 Ulf Svensson

More to come

My period notes say Harvey's car was BT21A-7, which is presumably a different beast from BT21-7.
Baker's was the ex-Harvey
Bert Hawthorne's car, landed NZ about November 1967, was said to be BT21-9 - maybe it was BT21A-9?

FRom F1R Fact Book 27/3/67

BT21-4 Derek Bell
BT21 - 13 Rollo Fielding
BT21-14 Chris Williams

Agreed re 5, 11, 12, 15, 18, 20, 29.

With due thanks to who ever took the notes !!!

All, especially David. BT21A .? BT21.? -7

The ex Graeme Harvey car is in Australia.

Called out as 1966 build , 1st event December 1966 at Pukekohe, thence to Les Jones 1967-8 , then to Graham Baker 1968-70 , thence Allan Rhodes 1970-3 , then Russell Noble 1973-5 , then Neil Whittaker 1975-2001, sold to Robert Hands of Melbourne .
David do you concur.?
We have A.M. number but no chassis no.
Car is now for sale via Len Selbys site in the U.K.

If David agrees then you have chassis -6 idle again.
My build sheets advise ,

BT21 x 49 in 1966. as F3
BT21A x 10 in 1967 as F.Libre.
BT21B x 30 in 1968 as F3.
BT21C x 19 in 1968 as F.Libre.

Total of 108 cars , plus at least 1 x backdoor car I have already listed.

BT21 - 48 , sold new? to Frank Williams [ less engine but with MK 4 Hewland , we have the AM no. on car , and it appears this went straight to the U.S.A .
Has been in Australia since 1999, chassis plate is on car , and history back to early 1970's .

An advert in Autosport Nov. 9 1972 ,BT21A , page 51, John Wingfields sucessful race winning Libre car , a genuine works built car , not to be confused with a converted F3 , for sale.

Bryan.

BT21C-17 ,

New to Malcolm Eaves , but did not appear untill Prescott Spring meeting 1970 , apparently due to Ron T. not wanting to build it with the Buick eng , and when it did appear the eng. bay [ from memory ] was BT23C.

1971-1973 Peter Boshier Jones with Buick.
1973-1979 Nigel Pow with 5 litre quad cam Repco.
1979-1981 John Harper .
1981-1983 to Les Wright in Australia.
1983-1987 to Clive Osborne in Oz .
1987-present back to Les Wright Oz.

Bryan.

Called out as 1966 build , 1st event December 1966 at Pukekohe, thence to Les Jones 1967-8 , then to Graham Baker 1968-70 , thence Allan Rhodes 1970-3 , then Russell Noble 1973-5 , then Neil Whittaker 1975-2001, sold to Robert Hands of Melbourne .
David do you concur.?
Close
First event with Harvey at Pukekohe Dec 1967
Then (in seasons):
1967/68: Harvey > Jones March
1968/69: Jones > Baker April
1969/70: Baker > Rhodes late
1970/71: Rhodes
1971/72: Noble
After that it gets confusing, as many parts were used in the construction of the Noble sportscar which raced the following season, and till 1978, and ultimately ended up with NZ Brabham collector David Manton.
The bits not used for the sportscar were built into Neil Whittaker's FF, which he raced from 1973, IIRC, and owned for many years afterwards - 2001, if you say so.
I don't know which parts went into which car, so can't be sure how much BT21 (or BT21A) remained with Whittaker

Rest of BT21s so far!

32: 1967 Egert Haglund, kept by Haglund early 68 then to Eddie Jacobsson; then 1969 to Richard Scott, run by Williams and updated to BT21B. Sold to Bert Hawthorne when Scott got his Chevron. Run by Hawthorne in UK F3 races in 1970. This is not Hawthorne's Tasman car I think.

33: 1967 not sure, but appears 1968 Race of Champions run by Lythgoe for Gethin with a BMW 2 litre in the back, so maybe a Lythgoe F3 car in 1967. Run by Millar with the Beemer still in it in 1969 Libre races

34: Don't know

35: April 1967 for Cassegrain, run by Lamplough, so maybe he owned the car. Cassegrain again in 68

36: Williams team car to mid 69 then sold to Canada and used in FB. Maybe Bruce Jensen's BT21 in Canadian championship

37: Ingvar Pettersson 67 and 68

38: Lars Lindberg 1967

39 and 40 : Don't know

41: 1967 FIRST for Mac Daghorn to replace early season car, 1968 to Alan Deacon for Libre

42: 1967 don't know. 68: Kenny Lall

43: 1967 don't know. 68 Williams for Burton, so maybe a Williams car in 67

44: 1967 - 68: Juoko Valli, 1969 Jonas Quanstrom

45: Not known before March 1971 when Jeff Uren has it for sale in Autosport, so maybe the Uren team car all the way back to 68 at least when Uren runs "Pele" [not the Pele]

46: 1967 don't know, 1968 Phil Tose entered by Ian Walker, so maybe a late season Walker replacement in 67

47: Don't know

48: Williams to USA thanks Bryan! Would the known history back to the early 70s include anything that might interest someone researching the history of Atlantic and FB races?

49: 67 perhaps Lythgoe mid season replacement used by Berry and Rollinson, 68 Goodwin racing for Cyd Williams, 69 Goodwin then sold to John Buxton, retained by Buxton to end 71, F/S Autosport Jan 27 72, then to Howlings. Owned by Lou Pavesi, California, at some point, now owned by Bruce Mansell.

New cars in 67 still to be accounted for:

Charlie Lucas
Tetsu Ikuzawa
Peter Fattorini
Mervyn Wingfield
Sports Motors: Gethin
Winfield: Tico Martini
Woodward
FIRST: Mac Daghorn [early season]
Jurg Dubler [badly damaged in the Casserta F3 accident]
Williams: Mauro Montagnani
Williams: Ole Vejlund
Kurt Lincoln
Carlos Gaspar
Lamplough: Phillipe de Henning
Bridges: Malcolm Foulds
Silvio Moser
Jorgen Ellekaer [maybe Williams]
Alain Franchesci
Mike Hiss [FB]
Fred Opert [FB]
Joe Grimaldi [FC]

The 21A advertised by Wingfield is probably 21A-12
1967: Stockbridge: John Fenning 1968: Stockbridge: Fenning-> Nick Williamson 1969: Nick Williamson->Robin Darlington->Jim Charnock Run by Wingfield at Thruxton FL 22.5 [MN report says it's ex Charnock]

Chris

Chris,
I wasn't being devious when I posted re. BT21-48 , as this is what I have been advised , but as a formal application hasn't been recieved , and knowing the owner , may not progress for years is best I can do at the moment , and as it appears to have always been a Twin-cam car it should help someone.

David, I have just re-read Vercoe's version of events , and think we have two distinct cars , both of which at one time were with the same person, i.e. Russ Noble. and the owner may have histories of two cars intertwined.

Bryan.

Chris,

Vercoe's book also advises BT21-19 was bought back from the U.K. by Bert Hawthorne , and first race at Timaru Feb. 1968 . But this doesn't work with your call out of BT21-19.
In Oz in period we had no permanent resident BT21 series cars , they have all migrated in since.

Bryan.

Chris,

BT21-48 is the car owned by Bruce Mansell , not -49, as far as I know.

Bryan.

Bryan

Vercoe never struck me as terribly reliable, especially when Allen and I looked at F5000 cars. I haven't looked at the 1967/8 races yet, and don't know what Hawthorne drove in UK in 67, but in 68 in UK he uses a BT21B which is then sold to Ed Reeves for the 69 British season. He then takes what my notes record as 'the last one built' of the BT21Cs - so BT21C-19?. F1R has this chassis no in its Tasman book [don't know how reliable that is!] and it staying downunder with Cary Taylor in 1970.
What might confuse Vercoe is that the BT21B which Hawthorne buys in the UK to race F3 in 69 is ex Graham Coaker. [AS 6.6.69 p. 2] But this is NOT, as far as I can tell, BT21-19, which is also raced by Coaker in 69 [when it belongs to Mike Stow], and which has been updated by then to B spec. Rather it is a genuine 21B. In Sept 69 it goes to David Martell [AS 25.9.69 p. 24]

I would have to have a good look at MN and AS late 67 to start getting further on this at this end. My guess however, is that Vercoe took 21C-19 and extrapolated back that this had always been Hawthorne's car and that he'd just upgraded it. He actually gets through at least four Brabhams between late 67 and Sept 69.

Chris

Chris,

We have agreed before on Vercoe's info being a bit suspect , I would tend to believe that the car is probably BT21C-19 , most people don't have a clue that there were so many different BT21 varietys.

Bryan.

Would you believe varieties.

Just went back to my earliest (pre-Vercoe) records to check the number of Hawthorne's NZ BT21, and find I don't have one. I do however have it listed as a BT21C: this could be a later description, perhaps after an update (Hawhorne did wok at Brabhams after all, and could easily have brought home an update kit at some stage).
I always believed the car he raced in NZ was brand new, and not one he had raced in the UK. It was landed in November 1967 but there were problems with Customs and it did not race until Feb 1968

Chris,
I have BT21-47 at Silverstone in 2000 presented as the ex Tony Trimmer car that he used as a Formula Ford.
Ian

Interesting, according to a piece on TT in Motoring News that was ex Williams (a wrecked Ikuzawa car from Oulton) which Trimmer rebuilt in the evenings for nothing. 1969 sold to Martin Grant-Peterkin and retained in 1970 [MN 26.2.70 p.7]
I'd be surprised to learn that the plate was still on it, but will pencil 47 in as the Ikuzawa - Trimmer car

Chris

BT21-47 is now back with its second owner Martin Grant -Peterkin.He re-purchased from Mattthew Watts after Mattew had retired the car ,after racing it for several seasons in Historic formula ford .Whilst in Mattews ownership he re-united it with Tony Trimmer who helped with the shake down tests.It still retains its plate.

Can vouch for bt21-47 being driven very quickly by Mr Watts during his ownership and also being involved in a very spectacular aerial display a couple of years ago in a hottly disputed Formula Ford race at Silverstone.

Thank you James. I will remind Matt of this when I see him this afternoon.

I can remember reports in period saying thatHawthorne's BT21 in NZ was a new one he built up while working at Brabhams. It was supposed to have had a six speed gearbox from one of the 66 Brabham Honda 1.0 F2 cars.

So far the following remain unidentified:

BT21A - Sir Nick Williamson then to Howard Bennett
BT21B - Bryan Brown then to Peter Blankstone who installed a Hepworth 4-w-d system
BT21B - John Barr with 1.0 engine (1970)
BT21B - Roger Hickman with 1.0 engine (1970)
BT21/BT23 - Roy Lane
BT14/BT21 - Roy Lane then to Jimmy Johnstone (NB not the BRYAN ECCLES car)

NB BT21A-9 went from Tony Griffiths to Gray & Agnes Mickel before Griffiths bought it back. He then sold it on to Tom Elton.

FYI - I have BT-21 Chassis no. 23. Though the Arch Motors number stamp is long gone from the frame (assume from some amount of contact with the armco over the years by previous owners - though I shouldn't talk having not helped matters by spinning her into the pit wall at Brands last July ;) ), the FIA papers and history indicate that the car was built in 1967 as a screamer and since then converted to twin cam spec.

Expat

Does the log book identify the first owners?
Any idea when the twink was installed?

cheers
Chris

Chris,

Unfortunately there is no history on this.

Regards,

Expat

Can anyone help me with any history of my Brabham BT21A-2. please? The data prior to 1990 I have seems confused. I am also interested in any photos etc. indicating original colours.

rb

Most 21As were sold in America for the FB series.
I only have limited period information for a very few British based cars.
What names and other data do you have on the history? We may be able to join the dots with known 21A users where I don't know the actual car

Chris

Chris,
your post of 12Dec04 refers to BT21A-12. I believe, and my papers support it, that it is in fact #-2. I do have a picture of the car with John Fenning at Prescott. There is a "Supplied by Frank Williams" decal on the side of the nose. Other owners listed are John Longfield, Jim Charnock,Robin Darlington, Steve Malins, Harvey ????,Roger Murray, Graham North and prior to myself, Stephan Foster. It may have been that the car was originally in F2/Libre spec. but competed in several different specs. It has the original number gearbox but is known to have had the original (?) TwinCam replaced with a Fiat twin cam in a sprint form before being returned to its original and present spec.
At present I have only a couple of B+W photographs and some race reports from Autosport in the '70's. If there is any interest, and I knew how to, I would post some past and present photographs.
I only came across this site a couple of days ago. I must say how interesting it is. The depth of knowledge staggering and I have only visited this historic forum so far!
Regards

rb

I'll have to go back into my Brabham notes file and see where my original note of this car being chassis 12 came from.
My ownership trail for it in period runs Stockbridge Racing late 67 for John Fenning [and I understand it to be new at this point], sold by Stockbridge to Sir Nick Williamson mid 68; Williamson to Robin Darlington to Jim Charnock during 1969; kept by Charnock for a couple of years and then turns up at a libre race at Thruxton, May 72, described as owned by Williams [presumably part of a deal] but driven by John Wingfield.

Both Ted Walker and Bryan Miller can probably help here with their extensive Brabham records!

Chris

My dad has the history of this car, I will ask him. From memory it was the first car to have willans harnesses installed by J Fenning. It was always a Twincam F Libre from new, I don't recall it ever racing in f2, just club racing and then hillclimbing by a guy called Harvey Hodgson from Blackpool. Original colours were the same as works Titan F3 cars. Ted put my dad on to it in about 1987 and he bought it from Mr Hodgson as rolling chassis with Hewland mk 5 gearbox.

Roger. I told you all this months ago when I gave you some photos. You should repaint it metallic blue as it was when owned by Stockbridge Racing .( John Fenning)

Hello James,
Thanks for the confirmation of much of the informatiom given to me by Ted W. I briefly met your father at Silverstone last October. I hope to be able to find time to contact him as I have his race results etc with the car. I have considered repainting the car but your comparison with the works Titans confirmed what I feared it might be mistaken for.
It is the period of ownership prior to John Fenning that is unclear. That is 1. Tony Griffiths. 2. John Brown. 3. John Ravescroft. 4. Frank Williams. A lot of changes of ownership in a very short period!
Many thanks for your interest.
Regards

I assume - who was it that said never assume? - that it was a mistake when you listed 'John Ravescroft' as one of the owners? It was in deed JOHN RAVENSCROFT who shared the car with his dad Arthur. :rotate:

BT21A-9 was used by the Ravenscrofts throughout 1971. At the end of the season it was sold to Rodger Hartley who used the car during both 1972 and 1973. It then passed out of the Sprint and Hillclimb disciplines or at least the competitive reaches. :cool:

The Graham Harvey BT 21 that went to NZ was also painted in the Titan colours when it ran in it's first season in NZ. I had the idea that it was a second hand 21A but the details here seem yo be different.

At the Historic Races at Queensland Raceway last week-end, a BT-21C was advertised for sale as:- "1968 Brabham BT21C, ex-Phillipe de Lespernay (USA), ex-Russ Baldwin (USA), unwanted restoration project."

Can anyone shed any light on this car or it's history.

What engine/gearbox should it have?

Thanks

Maybe T54 can tell us more?

Allen

Maybe T54 can tell us more?
Allen
Does he post here, or only in The Other Place?

You may be right David. I swap about so much I sometimes lose track.

Spook,
Who has the car advertised , so I can try and keep records up to date , I know of a Russell Baldwin from Newcastle [ N.S.W. ] who had/has the Proton, an Errol Richardson built BT23B replica badly damaged many years ago when a radius rod pulled out , but that car is local only.
Bryan Miller.

Bryan, I only have a name and phone number - would rather not post this information until the identity of the car is confirmed.

If you send me a PM, I'll send you the contact details.

Spook,
Will enquire now that I have a name , the penny drops from a conversation with the gentleman a few years ago.will advise .
Bryan.

Can anyone help with contact details/history/fame of "Phillipe de Lespernay" or "Russ Baldwin" ?.

Phillip de Lespernay goes under the handle of T54 on the Atlas TNF site.

Hi spook

I have contact details for Philippe de Lespinay (note spelling) but your PM folder is full so I can't send them. Please email me at allen@oldracingcars.com.

Allen

Hi, I am John Lindsay and am restoring a BT 21 which was imported to the US in 1967 or 1968 and has not had the chassis number identified yet. It was bought in the UK with a fuel injected SCA and Hewland 6 speed .I understood it was hillclimbed. In 1970 it was the US FC national champion driven by Mike Rand.
I thought some Canadian results would help.This is from RPM, The History of Auto Racing in Quebec 1970.

Le Circuit Continental Formula B
St Jovite Aug 1, 1970

2 # 75 Alan Lader BT 29 Fred Opert
3 # 57 John Marshall Brabham Team Sury
4 # 36 Matt Spitzley Brabham Spritzford Racing
6 # 71 Nick Craw BT 29 Fred Opert
7 # 67 G Baker BT 29 Graham Baker MT
9 # 5 B Robertson Brabham Fred Opert
12 # 72 Evan Noyes BT 29 Fred Opert
14 # 7 Randy Lewis Brabham Randy Lewis
17 # 15 K Husband BT 29 K Husband
19 # 41 Bruce Jenson BT 21 C JenMac Racing
20 # 38 Fred Harris BT 29 Fred Harris
DNF # 59 Sandy Shefard BT 29 Sandy Shefard
DNF # 32 Al Justason BT 23 F Al Justason
DNF # 10 John R Babchek BT 21 C Babchek Racing
DNF # 54 Randy Fraser BT 29 Fred Opert
DNF # 11 Syd Demosky BT 29


Le Circuit Formula B
St Jovite Trans Am Aug 2, 1970

1 # 5 B Robertson BT 29
8 Al Justason BT 23 F
9 B Fox BT29

JRL,

Welcome aboard.
Sounds like it would have been an F2 car in U.K/Europe , but the 1 litre F2 stopped at the end of 1966 , to be replaced with the 1600cc FVA cars in 1967 , so with not many F2 BT21 cars out in 1966 we may have a chance of figuring out whose it was in period.
Most of the 21's would have been F3 , but Chris or Ted may have other information.

Bryan.

Bryan,

The special case of the SCCA 1100cc FC cars converted from FIA spec I would think were primarily F3 cars. Like my Modus, the brakes, Mk g'box, wheel widths etc were more condusive to the conversion than a F2 car would be. Most F2 cars came over here to become FB cars w/ carbed 1600 twin-cams.

John,

Hi and welcome to the group. Good to have another familiar voice on the list. Have you contacted Mike Rand about the car. My car was Mike's mount 10 years later in F Continental and his earlier Modus served him well in 1977. Mike still had a nice combined file on the pair of Modus, including some of the research he'd done to determine they were good cars. He may well have a file on your car too.

Roger Sieling, Ohio

Thanks for the warmreception.
Mike was very helpful supplying some pictures and stats. he raced the car for Springdell Racing ,which was Chuck Schroedel and Joe Grimaldi who also had an Brabham BT 18 with an SCA . My car was converted to an FB in 1971 with a TC etc.
Bryan is correct about the F2 cars before 1967 as they had MAE /SCA etc and Hewlands and wider tires.I'm having the same problem with a Cooper T75 (?) that had an SCA that raced in Canada in 1969/70 as a FB. This would be a 1965 car or maybe a 1966 one. The rivets are still there for the chassis plate but no plate.
Its too bad that a lot of chasis plates disappeared , I assume to avoid taxes when they were shipped.
There were a few Modus Atlantics owned in Canada.Actually one sold on E bay last year
John

John,

Are you sure you're not thinking of a GRD that was way out in Newfoundland or somewhere equally as remote? If you are correct about Modus in Canada, do you have any names or where they are?

Roger

Roger

John,

Does the frame have the AM number still on it .??
Any idea who purchased the car from the U.K and from whom.??

A Modus on ebay , that's sad. Should be a law against it . Racing cars deserve much better.

Bryan.

Bryan
The AM number isnot there but Mike Rand says he was not surprised at that. While rereading a Competition Press , Jan 23,1971for the umpteenth time I may have found an ad for my car
Brabham BT 21 B , 10" and 8" wheels, Hewland 5 speed, Lucas Downdraft , won last NE National ( SCCA) of 1970. $ 4195.00
Joe Grimaldi
The Race Shop
239 Greenwood Ave
Midland NJ
The results show that Mike Rand won the race therefore probably the same car. i was told by Chuck Schrodel (Springdel Racing)that Grimaldi had bought the car while in England in 1968 and that the car had been advertised in the racing press. It was raced by Schroedel in 1968.
In the same issue Springdel has BT 9- 15 advertised for $ 1250.00

Roger
I think you are right about the GRD , I saw it advertised here as a Modus but it was in Newfoundland.

John

John,
And I think you're right too. I think it may have been advertised as a GRD Modus or something like that. There is a thread on this list about the car or maybe it is the Lotus 19 owned by the same fellow who bought it.

Roger

Hi, While searching Goggle I came across this thread and would like to join in as I just purchased a Brabham BT21 AM 177, no tag. I would like to find out what the history is on this car and a possible chassis number. I picked up this car in Los Angeles last Wednesday and headed directly to Wayne Mitchell's for a quick lookover. The fellow I purchased the car from, purchased this car from someone in Riverside, Ca. That is all I know at this time. The car suppposedly has been in storage for over 30 years still on Firestone Supersports. Tim Osborne (BT21-9 AM175) was up to my shop on Sunday and gave me all of his research material. Interesting that my car, Tim's and another car from LA, BT-21A-7, AM227 (race-cars.com,archive) all have the same roll bar conversion. My car has the Wayne Mitchell front upper link/trailing arm (BT-23) conversion. The original wobblies are 8" front and 9"rear. F-3 Girlings all around. Everything else is basic BT21. No motor or gear box. I plan on a Lotus twincam and Mk8 hewland which I already have. Any help would be appreciated. I thought I was coming up with some info till I found this thread. I am amazed at the depth of information you guys possess. I have already been in correspondence with Allen Brown concerning my 67 Eisert - Harrison Special Indy Car. I started Vintage racing 10 years ago in a Elden PH10 Boat tail. I recently have been driving a Macon MR7B Formula Ford. With a bit of luck, I hope to have the Brabham ready for this racing season. Again thanks for any help you might be able to share. Is there a possibility that with Tim's BT21-9, AM 175 and my AM177, that my car could be BT21-11, Kurt Ahren's car?

Thanks, AL

Hello and good to have you here.

From info in front of me it is not BT21-10 .
So a definate possibility is BT21-8 or BT21-11.

The name of the person you purchased car from may be of assistance , if the car has not run since circa 1975 or thereabouts we may be able to back track into the U.K.

Bryan.

Bryan do not understand how you can assume this.My records show 21-10asAM178 BT21-11 asAM200. BT21-12 as AM185.

Ted,

I was afraid it wouldn't be that simple. Oh well. I purchased this car from Dan Longacre in Dan Point, CA. I will email Dan and try to find out who he got it from. It was fun researching Kurt's history anyway.

Thanks,


AL

Good morning Ted,

I am assuming nothing , simply looking at the fact that this time for a few chassis numbers it may be that they all came out with very close and consistent AM number to plate number sequences.
I take it you have nothing on BT21-8 / AM number.

Bryan. Do you mean the the Lamplough F2 car.If so ,no I havnt.BT21-9 is AM 175. TED

Ted,

Do you have an AM number match by any chance for my BT-12-23?

Regards,

Apologies, that of course is (1967) BT-21, ch. no. 23.

Thanks and regards

No. Would be interested what you know about the cars history.

So Ted, any idea what the chassis number is for my BT21 - AM177?

AL Murray

Hi fellas,
I'm new to this so give me a break if I stuff up.
Talking to Ron T of Brabham some time ago, he told me that the chassis number and the AM numbers had no direct correlation. Arch made the frames and just stacked them up, and as the were needed they were just pulled at random.
I guess you have got to believe the boss!
Bryan, you will be pleased to know that contrary to popular belief, the BT21 #48 / AM199 car is nearly finished and you should have a log book application very soon. History of the car pre mid seventies when it was sold by Lou Pavesi in the USA still unknown, other than the Frank Williams ownership as a roller with Mk4 box when new.
Also Bryan, the Costin-Nathan sports racer arrived in Botany Bay on the weekend. Just another piece of something different to liven up the M&O grids!
I'm enjoying this so keep it up guys.
Bruce Mansell, in Sydney.

Hi fellas,
I'm new to this so give me a break if I stuff up.
Talking to Ron T of Brabham some time ago, he told me that the chassis number and the AM numbers had no direct correlation. Arch made the frames and just stacked them up, and as the were needed they were just pulled at random.
I guess you have got to believe the boss!
Bryan, you will be pleased to know that contrary to popular belief, the BT21 #48 / AM199 car is nearly finished and you should have a log book application very soon. History of the car pre mid seventies when it was sold by Lou Pavesi in the USA still unknown, other than the Frank Williams ownership as a roller with Mk4 box when new.
Also Bryan, the Costin-Nathan sports racer arrived in Botany Bay on the weekend. Just another piece of something different to liven up the M&O grids!
I'm enjoying this so keep it up guys.
Bruce Mansell, in Sydney.

Welcome Bruce...look forward to seeing you hanging it out on the track :chflag: ...but as for giving you a break, no way, we change down and accelerate right past you if you stuff up :laugh:

Hi guys

I appear to have stuffed up something in my records and would appreciate your advice.

Frank Williams took a Brabham out to Tasman in 1969 for Malcolm Guthrie. I have it in my notes as BT23C/12 with a FVA but I'm told by impeccable sources (Bryan and David) that it was a BT21B. The "FVA" may even turn out to have been a Vegantune twin-cam so I've really made a mess of this one.

Can anyone tell me more about this BT21B? Do we know where it came from or where it went or its chassis number? And was it really a FVA?

Thanks

Allen

For the benefit of ten-tenthers other than Allen...
Guthrie's Tasman BT21B was c/no 24, fitted with a twincam engine (not an FVA)
Don't know its history before then or immediately after, but it turned up in UK historic racing about ten years ago with Bob Birrell squeezed into its cockpit

Thanks David.

No deja vu! :rotate:

I have the guthrie 21b as chassis 14.Guthrie sold the car to matt spitzley who ran a team with henry ford junior. the car ended up back in ireland in the mid 80s was raced by bob birrell and it now raced by richard kendall.

Hi Ted

What did he sell it to Spitzley for? Still with its twin cam as a Formula B or did it return to F3 spec?

Interesting that you agree on the Bob Birrell bit but not on its chassis number.

As you're typing again, does that mean the cast is off?

Allen

I have the guthrie 21b as chassis 14.
So do I
The Guthrie Tasman BT21B was however 24 ;)

:rotate:

Allen,

Yes it was fitted with a Vegantune Ford Twin-cam , not an FVA , so 0 out of 2 .

Regards Bryan.

:bag:

David. Done it again !!! YES ITS 24.Im not doing this anymore until Im back with 2 hands.Alan Matt ran it as an FB car just as it came from Guthrie.Yes plaster removed yesterday now in even more pain!!!!!

I have BT21-49 AM frame #299.
It was sold to Frank Williams (the Sir Frank Williams) ex factory complete with Hewland gearbox but without engine. The ownership from then to around 1975 is what I am after.
It was sold then with Lotus Ford twin cam power FB guise by a race car dealer in the USA. It's history after that is well documented.
Bruce Mansell

Bruce,
You have me a bit confused,do you own BT21-48 on frame AM 199 and BT21-49 on frame AM 299 ?
Regards,
Ian

I am seeking help with the history of a Brabham BT21....AM288

Back in August last year this note was posted on this thread.

"At the Historic Races at Queensland Raceway last week-end, a BT-21C was advertised for sale as:- "1968 Brabham BT21C, ex-Philippe de Lespinay (USA), ex-Russ Baldwin (USA), unwanted restoration project."

Bryan Miller told me of the car and I ended up buying it. I have started on its restoration. Already the frame has had around 60 hours of work on it. It was bent and twisted very badly. It had evidence of some basic repairs at some time. In speaking with Bill Schlossnagel, who worked on the car in Russell Baldwin's ownership, he told me that he had replaced a couple of tubes, but that Russell did not go on with it. He still had a record of the car being in his workshop almost 20 years ago and had recorded a number of BT21C-14 but with the 14 crossed out and a 12 written beside it. However -12 is recorded as belonging to Nereo Dizane and lives here in Australia. Bill doesn't remember where these numbers came from. Russell does remember checking with a Brabham historian in the UK and being told that -12 was a car in existence in Australia

I have spoken with Philippe, Russell and another subsequent owner John Delane. Philippe told me he bought the car around 1984 to remove the gearbox and some other parts and sold the rest on. He said the car was light blue when raced as a single seater in the US and he bought the original bodywork for it in his ownership and that now remains with the car. It came to him as a sports-racer with an ugly yellow and red body, which he threw away. At that time John Hafkenschiel inspected it in Philippe's workshop and recorded that the AM No. was 288 and that it was a BT21-C, there was no chassis plate attached to the car. Philippe bought the car from the Northwest area, and there is a tag on the throttle cable with an instrument company in Portland Oregon on it, which would indicate this. Philippe remembers that it wasn't raced by anyone of great note, in his opinion.

Russell Baldwin did some research on the car that noted previous owners but this now appears to have been lost and Russell doesn't remember any of the details. In 2001 Russell sold the car to John Delane with the help of Jim Hall. After John sold the car, it came here to Australia and I subsequently bought it.

Any help anyone can give with the car's history would be very much appreciated

Ed Holly

Sorry Ed I have looked at my list and have no no AM288 listed. Its in the right sequence for a BT21.

This thread now locked - see here:-

http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=80407

JT