Formula Atlantic Database

I thought that I would update people on how the project is going to provide a full database of Atlantic races worldwide, posted on oldracingcars.com

Hopefully this will lead to even more information coming my way, but my main comment is one of surprise at how quickly information has come in, and how much detail we've got. Allen already has a load of stuff that needs posting, and there should be more to come soon. I've managed to identify cars that early on I thought would remain mysteries forever, and build full databases for overseas races that were so obscure I wasn't sure they happened.

In the next few months I expect to finish
Canada: 1972; 1973; 1974
N.American series 1976; 1977; 1978
Australia 1981
S.Africa 1977
Britain 1973; 1974

British races are hard to complete without programmes, because race coverage and results usually stop at top 6. RAP; Dan Rear, Adam Ferrington and others have been an immense help here, but the following is a list of 1971 - 1975 where there are gaps. If anyone can help with copies of these, please get in touch

1971

Oulton Park, 21.3
Mallory Park, 28.3
Castle Combe, 12.4 Arco Trophy
Brands Hatch 30.5
Snetterton, 31.5
Snetterton, 27.6
Brands Hatch, 4.7
Castle Combe 24,7
Snetterton, 1.8
Mallory Park, 15.8
Oulton Park, 28.8
Castle Combe, 30.8
Brands Hatch, 12.9
Silverstone, 3.10
Castle Combe, 9.10
Snetterton, 10.10
Mallory Park, 24.10


1972

Brands Hatch, 5.3
Mallory Park, 26.3
Brands Hatch, 3.4
Mallory Park, 30.4
Snetterton, 7.5
Brands Hatch 28.5
Mallory Park, 29.5
Silverstone, 10.6
Brands Hatch 25.6
Snetterton 9.7
Brands Hatch, 30.7
Mallory Park, 27.8
Silverstone, 28.8
Brands Hatch 26.12 [run with F3]

1973

Brands Hatch, 18.3 [Yellow Pages R2]
Mallory Park, 6.5 [BP R5]
Brands Hatch, 28.5 [Yellow Pages, R4]
Thruxton, 29.5 [Non championship]
Mallory Park, 24.6 [BP R6]
Croft, 1.7 [BP R7]
Mallory Park, 21.7 [BP R9]
Silverstone, 28.7 [BP R10]
Brands Hatch 12.8 [BP R11]
Snetterton, 27.8 [BP R13]
Brands Hatch, 15.10 [BP 15]
Snetterton, 28.10 [BP R17]

1974

Silverstone, 31.3 [MCD R1]
Snetterton, 14.4 [John Player R4]
Silverstone, 12.5 [John Player R6]
Oulton Park, 27.5 [John Player R7]
Silverstone 30.6 [MCD R3]
Thruxton, 7.7 [MCD R4]
Brands Hatch 20.7 [John Player R9] British GP Programme
Silverstone 28.7 [MCD R5]
Mallory Park, 11.8 [MCD R6]
Phoenix Park, 7.9 [John Player R11]
Mondello Park, 15.9 [John Player R12]
Brands Hatch 29.9 [John Player R13]
Mallory Park, 13.10 [MCD R7]
Snetterton 27.10 [MCD R10]
Brands Hatch 3.11 [MCD R11]
Thruxton 16.11 [Non Championship, Wella Hair Care Trophy]

1975

Brands Hatch, 2.3 [Southern Organs R1]
Snetterton 29.3 [John Player R3]
Silverstone, 4.5 [John Player R6]
Brands Hatch 18.5 [Southern Organs R2]
Mallory Park, 15.6 [John Player R8]
Brands Hatch 13.7 [Southern Organs R3]
Silverstone, 3.8 [Southern Organs R4]
Snetterton 10.8 [Southern Organs R5]
Brands Hatch 14.9 [John Player R12]
Brands Hatch 21.9 [Southern Organs R6]
Oulton Park, 4.10 [Southern Organs R7]
Thruxton 12.10 [Southern Organs R8]
Thruxton 19.10 [Astor Club F.Atlantic race]

Chris

I presume Autosport and Motoring News have been consulted for those 71-75 British races?

To date most information has either been gathered from the racing press [Autosport/Motoring News for UK] and local newspapers [really useful in Canada and S.Africa, and the Vancouver Sun in particular is a gift for races at Westwood]. On top of this there've been useful feeds of memories, programmes and race organisers' information sheets from spectators and former competitors.

Chris

I might be able to help with some of these. What kind of info are you looking for?

Rob

Check your PM - I've given details!

Chris

Chris, Herewith Snetterton 27-10-74.

2 , Pinch [ Plant ] Ltd. Drv. John Nicholson , Pinch Lyncar 1600cc.
5 , Southern Organs Int. Racing Team [ Drv. Geoff Friswell ] March 73B , 1600cc.
8 , STP Racing Team [ Drv. Peter Wardle ] STP Surtees TS 15 ,1600cc.

4 , Ken Bailey Lola T360 1600cc.

10 , The Chequered Flag [ DRV. Ray Mallock ] Brabham BT40 , 1600cc.

13 Southern Organs Int. Racing Team [ Drv. David Morgan ] Chevron B27 , 1600cc.

14 , Custom Made/Harry Stiller Racing [ Drv. Alan Jones ] March 74B, 1600cc.

21 , Wella Int. Hair Cosmetics [ Drv. Ted Wenz ] Wella March 74B , 1600cc.

22 , Rapid Movements [ Drv. Matt Spitzley ] March 74B , 1600cc.

32 , Pinch [Plant] Ltd. [ Drv. Peter Williams ] Chevron B27, 1600cc.

36 , Team Modus [ Drv. Tony Brise ] Modus 1 , 1600cc.

51 , Team Castrol[ Drv. Andy Rouse ] March 73B,1600cc.

65 , Roy Baker , MRE FA 7H , 1600cc.

72 , Derek Cook , Chevron B27 , 1600cc.

71 , Mangels Racing [ Alex Ribeiro ] GRD A 75 , 1600cc.

44 , Graham Eden Racing , [ Drv. Tony Trimmer ] Brabham BT40 , 1600cc.

Chris, found another programme.

Oulton Park, 4-10-1975 , Southern Organs .

1, John Nicholson , Modus M1 / Pinch Plant LtD. Orange

10, Ted Wenz , Wella - Lola / Wella International Hair Care. White.

14 , Val Musetti , March 74B/Bernigra Ice Cream , Red.

15 , Nick May , Lola T360B / Dave Price Racing , Black.

17 , Derak Cook , Chevron B29/ George Cooper Lubricants, Blue.

18 , Richard Morgan, Chevron B29/ Driver , no colour listed.

20, P.R. Sharp , Lyncar FA005 / Driver , Green/White.
[ This is presumably Phil Sharp from New Zealand.]

24, Alo Lawler , Chevron B29 / L&B Excavations , Green.

25 , Bob Muir, Birrana 273 / Bob and Marj Brown. , Green.

30, Mike Franey , Chevron B27 / Samatco Ltd. White /Black

40 , Brett Riley , Chevron B29 / Driver. White.

45 , Steve Carvill , Surtees TS15/ Peter Wardle , Blue.

57 , Rowland Remeeus , Chevron B27/ Ashtune Race Hire , Blue.

58, Tim Brise , Modus M3 / Team Modus , Orange / White.

Chris this I believe is the late season car that was different to the mid season car , and should be the one that went to Purley for Macau , and never heard of again.

59, Gunnar Nilsson , Chevron B29/Ted Moore Rapid Movements , Yellow.

63 , Richard Pierce , Chevron B29 / Driver , Red.

64 , David Winstanley , Brabham BT35 / Piccadilly Radio Racing with Roosters Club. Blue .

I swear the above is true and correct.

Bryan

Many thanks. Re the Oulton race 4.10.75 I know that Sullivan used Tony Brise's regular car [what ever that meant at this stage of the season!] but DNS after stuffing it. I don't know if Tim Brise actually appeared at this race, but will be investigating further. Will try and find time to go through 75 Atlantic and F3 before Christmas to trace Modus histories.
I think the Modus that Purley took to Macau stayed there. At Batu Tiga, 24.4.77, there's a guy called Abadilla with a Modus.

Chris

Guess what I've been doing! Chastened by Chris's comments, I've dug the 1974 UK results out of my ever-growing pile of things to do and it turns out it's virtually ready to post. I had just needed the date and circuit of Round 5, the event between Snetterton on 14 Apr and Silverstone on 12 May and I've just dug that out of Autocourse. In doing that, I noticed that I'd almost omitted the Phoenix Park and Mondello Park heats so I'll just go and recover those from Chris's spreadsheet.

Then onto NZ 79, 80 and 84 and Aus 81. :rotate:

Allen

OK, that's the 1974 UK season posted. Twice actually, as Chris sent a new spreadsheet just as I was posting the results from the first one!

Allen

I should add that this is just the John Player Championship for 1974,
going up at the moment.
I'm still working on the MCD one which may take rather longer.

Chris

Chris T: from your wants list I have the following programmes in my collection:

12/05/74 Silverstone
20/07/74 Silverstone
29/09/74 Brands Hatch
04/10/75 Oulton Park

What would you like? Photocopies of the relevant pages or will it do if I just type them into an e-mail?

Steve

Photocopies or scans are better than pasting in material [unless you are in Australia like Bryan - lucky b*****d].
Oulton 4.10.75 was one that he just sent by e mail, so unless your copy has annotations [and there were extra runners in that race, not in the programme] you probably don't need to send that one.
The others, however, are a great contribution to knowledge!

Check your Private Messages, I've sent you my address.

Chris

Chris
Was it you I sent the two Canadian results sheets (1976 Mosport, 1977 Trois Riviere)?
If not I can!
Derek

I can provide the following Brands Progs (all have lap charts)
30 May 71
5 March 72
3 April 72
27 May 73
2 March 75
18 May 75
PM your address and I will copy to you

Derek

You did indeed send me that invaluable information from Trois Rivieres and Mosport!

Chris

RAP

Many thanks, check your PM for my address

Happy new year
Chris

There are two problem car identities that someone might be able to offer insights on.

These are
1: The Reg James Brabham BT28 from 1972 - 74. This started life as David Purley's F3 car, and I'm wondering if F1R noted its number during its F3 career.

2: The Mick Jones Merlyn Mk14 from 1972. I'm presuming this to be the car used by Mike Frazer in libre races in 1971 and before then it must have been an F3 car. I've been tracing F3 Merlyns in the vain hope of finding what this car might have been. However, the only chassis numbers I have are for Pablo Brea's works car [235] and Champin's [208]. I think that the Jones car might have been EITHER Quentin Fraser's 1969 F3 car [itself ex Lanfranchi works car 1968] OR an ex Fraser F3 team car from 1969 used by Ray Calcutt and Harry Stiller. [Lanfranchi used this car once for Fraser in 68 on Boxing Day]. Does F1R F3 book have anything on Merlyns? Does anyone have observations on this car? We've not yet discussed Merlyns!

Chris

... We've not yet discussed Merlyns!

ChrisOh yes we have. Remember the Merlyn Mk21 (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56898&highlight=merlyn) thread? Clive was very helpful on that car and I'm sure could help on Mk14s too.

Allen

F1R has Purley with BT28-38 (sighting 22 Aug 70)
Merlyn info is thin
- 17/5/69 P Champin 169-FF-69 entered by Motor Racing Enterprises
- 13/9/69 H Stiller MK 14 wks entry 140-F3-68
RAP

Just about to send 1971 UK and Canada to be posted and wanted to do two things

Repeat request for information; results sheets; programmes; time sheets

AND

I am starting to put together car histories for Atlantic formulae and wondered if anyone had pictures of the following, that they would be happy to see posted
Chevron B29s in UK, Ireland and S. Africa in particular
March 712Ms either in F2 or Atlantic guise

Chris

Hi Chris

I still have those NZ and Australia (80/81/84 IIRC) seasons to do. Could you send the latest versions you have of those spreadsheets too please.

Thanks

Allen

Call for photos

Thanks to some very kind souls the picture database to go with the car histories - which will, eventually, be linked to the race results on oldracingcars - has made dramatic advances. Oddly all those pics are from North America. This is a plea for colour [for preference] pics from the UK, NZ, Aus and S. Africa. I'm especially looking for Chevron B29s and Ralt RT4s, because those histories are quite close to being ready.

Please get in touch if you have anything helpful

Chris

Does anyone have any information on Formula Atlantic Races in Indonesia or Malaysia in the seventies?

A little from Malaysia;
1979
1st May; Penang

1st Ken Smith (NZ) March 78B Castrol #11
2nd Grahame Lawrence (NZ) Chevron B48
3rd Pocolo Ramirez Chevron B40 #88
4th Naireing La Merced (PI) Chevron B35-team Goodyear #22
5th Diana Poon Brabham B40 #32
R Albert Poon Chevron B40 #66
NS; Chong Kim Fah Chevron B39 Team Rothmans #21

6 May Kuala Lumpar

1st Smith
2nd Lawrence
3rd A.Poon
4th La Merced
5th Ronco David March 76B Team Goodyear#29
6th Kim Fah
R Ramirez

23 Sept Selangor

1st Andrew Miedecke (AUS) March 76B
2nd Smith
3rd A.Poon
4th Ramirez
7th Tiff Needell (GB) March 76B Team Unipart #4
R;Sony Rajah March 73B Team Unipart#3
R; Cherie Schloemer Chevron #99
Crashed ;Lawrence

Rob, I presume the Lawrence B48 was actually one of the v rare B49s, as mentioned on the "Other Chevrons" thread ?

Dan

Indeed the Lawrence B48 is B49 chassis 4.

Adding a little more on S.E. Asian races

Macau GP 16.11.75

1 John McDonald Ralt RT1 [5]-Hart 420R 40 laps
2 Kevin Bartlett Brabham BT40-BDA 38
3 Steve Millen Chevron B20 [20.72.09]-BDA
4 Ken Shirvington March 732 [9]-BDA
5 Kiyoshi Misaki
UNK Theodore Yip Elfin
UNK David Purley Modus M3-BDA Team Harper [described as 'ex Brise' was this the car that went to the Domingo brothers in early 1976 or the car used by
Nicholson in South Africa? Took pole


R Vern Schuppan March 722 [40]-BDA 33 Engine
DNS Vern Schuppan Ralt RT1 [9]-Hart 420R Engine
DNS Max Stewart

Chris,

We now resume the great Modus debate.

Purley's car is as far as I can figure the late season car as used by Brise from the British G.P. and onwards and also by Tim Brise once / twice and possibly Danny Sullivan .
This is the replacement for 022 which went to John Nicholson for late 1975 Southern Organ's rounds and then to New Zealand for the 1977 series , not to be confused with the Domingo car in Sth Africa which supposedly was built up incorporating parts of 022 as well .
The fact still remains that my brother has 022 with it's chassis plate intact, which takes me back to my belief that Brise had 3 cars in 1975.

Bryan.

Chris,

Further to this , what is your source for B20-72-09.
This is the car now owned by Harry Hickling from Canberra, and is definately ex Millen , but as far as I can remember we could get no further than either chassis 8 or 9 .???

Bryan.

Bryan

What is the evidence for the Macau car being 022 rather than 020?
I agree that Brise might well have used three cars in 1975.
009 written off after Brands accident 13.7.75
020 Gygax new at British GP, perhaps destroyed by Danny Sullivan in practice at Oulton Park 4.10.75 and used by Brise in interim.
022 Brise new at British GP, then to Nicholson. Rebuilt after Nicholson's accident at Oulton 4.10.75. After 4.10.75 it seems as though Modus have no intact FAt monocoques. However, a week later Nicholson and Richard Parsons appear at Thruxton. It's at this point, I'd suggest, that 022 gets a new tub and the other "022" [what becomes the Domingo car] gets built for Parsons using the ex Brise running gear from 009 plus bits of 020 and 022 [Nicholson]
Am going to do a full breakdown on Modus Atlantic cars soon and post on Racing a la mode.

Chris

Chris,

We have crossed lines, I believe the Macau car is ex Brise , however not 022 , but a car built up as per Autosport report and just finished in time to get to the British G.P.for Brise to enter but not race due to his accident in the Hill F1 car , however at the same meeting Gygax is in the ex Brise Atlantic car. Which may/may not well be an amalgam of the Gygax/ Sullivan Monaco cars from one week earlier , at which meeting Brise's converted Atlantic to F3 car was also damaged.

I have never been able to ascribe a number to the Purley car.

Bryan. Sincerly hoping everyone that is on this Forum is O.K.

I met Adam F last night for first time, he promises to look into some 'mystery' Atlantics for me/us, eg the Goodwin Racing Argo JM9 from 1981, and some 782/79Bs.

Chris, If you are compiling Modus Atl data, I should advise you that I have found 041 still with the original owner, who quit racing at the end of the '76 season, went back to school and got a real job that he has become absorbed into. As far as I know, it is not for sale. I have asked for some photos and they were promised but never materialised.

I've never been able to find any race history w/ SCCA, and that may be because it raced professionally that one year, end of story. The car is still in the USA.

Roger

Reading thru' some 1978 A/sports, the Bowtell and Rhoddy Harvey-Baillie Marches crop up.

Was Bowtell's an original 74B, I have my doubts, and if not, anyone know any history here. Bowtell later got what he called a 77B, which I think was different to the '74B', it looked a bit like the de Dryver '778' from 1977. The latter seemed to disappear after 77, anyone any clues.

The RHB car was described as a 712/76B, again anyone know anything on its provenance ??

Dan

The Bowtell 77B car may have been a real 77B - ex Patsy McGarrity.
Harvey-Bailey's 712 presumably ex F2 car, but there are plenty of candidates.

Regarding Argos, believe David Sears may have the sales records
The Goodwin Racing car is the least of the mysteries. There's the new car used
by Nick May at the end of 1979 - which is not the ex Kennedy F3 car used earlier
by Rick Gorne; then there's the car advertised at the begining of 1980 by Dave
Rackham, which seems to have been bought new for that year but never raced.
What ever became of that?

Chris

Chris I reckon there was only ever 1 JM5 Atlantic car. I suspect it was used by the works/May as a test at the end of 79, then sold to Mike Nugent who had it in ireland for a year or 2.

Don't think Rackham ever raced it, though I recall the MN/AS reports that he was going to. Rackham, IIRC, was a karter then FF man, of whom great things were expected. He started 79 in F At with the Druid, got an old B29, then the ex-Keke B42 if memory serves, never really shone in any of them.

The Argos that more interest me are the 2 JM9s from 1981, the Goodwin car, and the Tyrrell Arnold Irish one.

Dan,

Given his purchases of other cars out of Ireland and Scotland , Graeme Brown who bought over here my car and 73B-8 , also bought into Western Australia in the early 1980's an Argo , which I believe was a JM9 , didn't last long and reportedly destroyed not long after. May be one of your cars.

Bryan.

In my Argo excitement, I forgot the Bowtell '77B' matter ! Chris, which 77B that Patsy M had do you think could be this car. The only March I remember him in was the ex-Surer 772P in '78, which later went to Kim M for Aurora in 79.

After this was bashed up in a Libre race by David Ward in mid-79, it was rebuilt into a 782/79B and used by Kim (I believe its now in the US). So I don't see how it could be the car that Bowtell had in 1980-81, which had the 'classic March' nose and rounded sides. A similar mystery March, to me at least, is the red Martin Watson '77B'.

Dan,

Given his purchases of other cars out of Ireland and Scotland , Graeme Brown who bought over here my car and 73B-8 , also bought into Western Australia in the early 1980's an Argo , which I believe was a JM9 , didn't last long and reportedly destroyed not long after. May be one of your cars.

Bryan.

Bryan, it could well have been, maybe the Goodwin one, as I think the Arnold car raced in Ireland after its 'debut year', 1981. Though at least one 1981 Argo went onto the Hills here, i'm pretty sure this was a JM8 F3 car. Did one also get a Rover V8 in too, I'm dredging the memory here!

The records for the 1971 Atlantic season in the UK are pretty much ready to post, but there is one race in particular which is causing grief as it's so poorly documented in comparison to the others.
this is the round at Oulton on 28 August 1971, and unusually run as two heats with
an aggregate result. The race reports are more cursory than usual. [A shame as this race was won by Peter Wardle, his only win in Atlantic I think]
Does anyone have a programme? Even better, results sheets?

Chris

Hi Chris, It wasnt actually my only win as we did ok with the Surtees TS15 subsequently, but it was the only time I won in my Lotus. I not only have the programme from that event but also the results sheets from both the races. It was a two race event with aggregate result. I finished thrid in the first part having had to make a pit stop to secure a loose rollover bar stay, some 55 seconds behind Vern Schuppan, bit it poured in the second race and I not only pulled back the deficit but went on the win by a minute and 8 seconds from Peter Hull (driving an F3 car on skinny tyres) and Vern a further 17 seconds back, so overall I won by about 30 seconds from Vern. A fun race!
Best regards,
Peter

Fantastic!!

Peter

Hi. I didn't realise you looked in on this forum.
Getting the record straight I realised that I missed your win in the Surtees at Brands
in August 73, and a pretty impressive run of placings with the car over several years.

I've sent you a private message about the Oulton Park race, but it's great to have someone who took part in so many Atlantic races contributing to the debate. By my estimate only Ray Mallock, Alo Lawler, Cyd Williams and Vern Schuppan did more, worldwide.

Chris

Hi Chris,
It would be interesting to check those totals. I did virtually every race from when it started to the end of 1975, then ran Steve Carvill in 1976 as I couldnt figure out how to run the Series and drive at the same time dammit! I just did some Aurora races, often beating F2/F5000/and even the odd F1 car with my Atlantic spec TS15 which was fun. Incidentally one of the Surtees I owned is now running in the historic F2 category by John Elliott, repainted in Matchbox colours. I dont know what happened to the other two.
Atlantic restarted of course a couple of years later and ran into the 1980's but I dont think it ever again had the illustrious range of named drivers as it had in 1974/5!
Best regards,
Peter

I think John Elliot has a spare chassis as well.

Can anyone help with race reports for the following?

Oulton Park 4 May 74. I need the Autosport report from 9 May 74 [have MN]

Montreal 12 June 82
Mid Ohio 27 June 82
Mosport 12 Sept 82
Any of the inaugural WCAR series rounds of 1983 and the race at Lime Rock 4 July 83

Adelaide 3 November 85 [support race to the Australian GP]

To date all the US results have come from On Track/Formula/Race Car
If anyone can help with race reports from Road and Track [if they did any], Competition Press/Autoweek from the early 70s on, and from any Canadian magazines after 1975 they'd be much appreciated.
The adverts for formula cars from the same magazines are also invaluable

Chris

Can anyone help with race reports for the following?

Oulton Park 4 May 74. I need the Autosport report from 9 May 74 [have MN]

Montreal 12 June 82
Mid Ohio 27 June 82
Mosport 12 Sept 82
Any of the inaugural WCAR series rounds of 1983 and the race at Lime Rock 4 July 83

Adelaide 3 November 85 [support race to the Australian GP]

To date all the US results have come from On Track/Formula/Race Car
If anyone can help with race reports from Road and Track [if they did any], Competition Press/Autoweek from the early 70s on, and from any Canadian magazines after 1975 they'd be much appreciated.
The adverts for formula cars from the same magazines are also invaluable

Chris

Chris, I have on loan from Roger Clark, that May 74 A/S. PM me your home address, I'll post a copy to you.

Dan

Chris,

I was a guest of Nissan at the Mid-Ohio CanAm race late June/ early July IIRC, so was probably same meeting as the Atlantic race you need info on. I may have some photos, as I should have had a good 200mm lens by then. But the highlite of the weekend was seeing the 1st ever SVRA vintage race at Mid-Ohio, which became an annual stand-alone affair later. This was a pivotal weekend in my life, as I pretty much at that point, decided to retire again from stage rallies and move on to vintage circuit racing.

I probably have a program and entry list, but where is another matter. The photos may be a lot easier to find. Only problem is we only went on Sunday, and often the support races are on Saturday.

Can anyone help with race reports for the following?


Montreal 12 June 82
Mid Ohio 27 June 82
Mosport 12 Sept 82

... and from any Canadian magazines after 1975 they'd be much appreciated.

The adverts for formula cars from the same magazines are also invaluable

Chris

Chris:
I have Montreal, Mid-Ohio & Mosport in ASC :D - patchy but winners were Tim CoConis, Dave McMillan and Whitney Ganz respectively. I'll scan them and send them "across the Pond".
Cheers.

Hello Guys.... apologies if I have entered the wrong chat room.... I found this site through oldracingcars.com.

I am seriously thinking about buying an historic single seater for next season and in the course of my research i came across the 'Atlantic' thread and remembered that I almost bought an Atlantic Brabham back in circa 1980.....

It was for sale at a garage in Raynes Park near New Malden Surrey for 1500 quid, which at the time was somewhat beyond my meagre means despite my best efforts to buy it.

I remember it was BRG and was advertised as the 'Feltham Glassworks' car... I think it was probably a BT 30, but I could be miles out on that one......it was over twenty five years ago!

If anyone on the forum knows anything about it, I would be very interested to get further information..... I always felt it was the one that got away!

Thanks in advance, kind regards

I think you have found the right place Nino.Though the period you refer to-from the 79 UK revival- has hardly been discussed yet.No mention of Brabhams,but I seem to remember a green BT30.Will dig out my records...

Think I have found what you saw.1973 -Robert Salisbury drove a BRG BT35 entered by Bob Gerard-race#20.

Brilliant! Thanks for your quick reply!

Perhaps it was a good job I didn't buy it as I see from your records it non started the race...

I am sure (at the time) it was advertised as a Formula 2 car, but I remember the seller saying it had been converted from a Formual Atlantic.

I have made a note of the chassis number (43) and will keep a look out for it, but I guess it would have been updated to BT 36 spec?

Thank for your help!

Brilliant! Thanks for your quick reply!

Perhaps it was a good job I didn't buy it as I see from your records it non started the race...

I am sure (at the time) it was advertised as a Formula 2 car, but I remember the seller saying it had been converted from a Formual Atlantic.

I have made a note of the chassis number (43) and will keep a look out for it, but I guess it would have been updated to BT 36 spec?

Thank for your help!

Isn't the internet wonderful.....!

A bit of further web research and I have found the very same car currently for sale.

It's owned by Nick Overall the HSCC chairman and for sale at 35K.

Any opinions on the relative merits of a BT35 v a BT 36 in todays historic racing scene?

Re BT36 V BT35

Apart from a BT36 being an F2 and BT35 being an F3/Atlantic there is very little difference in appearance and design mainly just the bigger and more shapely side pods on the BT36 to accomodate the larger F2 spec fuel tanks. The chassis are practically identical.

From a performance aspect it all comes down to what engine you run. The rules in Historic F2 and HSCC DBT permit you to use an atlantic engine or and F2 spec engine in either chassis. Most of the BT35's use a 1600 BDD Atlantic engine however some have had 1600 short stroke BDA's installed which is the accepted f2 substitute for the F2 FVA. A BT36 should have the FVA or a 1600 injected BDA, which is what mine has.

A BT36 will always be more valuable than a BT35 with it being an F2 and the relatively low number made (12 I think) however a BT35 is just as useable and accepted in Europe and UK.

Second call for photos please. Great thread. :cool:

Second call for photos please. Great thread. :cool:

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/swhillclimb/images/5-picture3.gif
Above: Sir Nick Williamson in his Brabham BT35X with FVC engine at Doune.

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/swhillclimb/images/8-picture2.gif
Above: Richard Shardlow in his Chevron B25 at Harewood.

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/swphotographic/images/4-picture3.gif
Above: Tony Griffiths in his Brabham BT38 at Harewood.

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/srwquiz/images/3-picture3.gif
Above: Martin Steele in the Lyncar FAt at Prescott

:cool:

Re BT36 V BT35

Apart from a BT36 being an F2 and BT35 being an F3/Atlantic there is very little difference in appearance and design mainly just the bigger and more shapely side pods on the BT36 to accomodate the larger F2 spec fuel tanks. The chassis are practically identical.

From a performance aspect it all comes down to what engine you run. The rules in Historic F2 and HSCC DBT permit you to use an atlantic engine or and F2 spec engine in either chassis. Most of the BT35's use a 1600 BDD Atlantic engine however some have had 1600 short stroke BDA's installed which is the accepted f2 substitute for the F2 FVA. A BT36 should have the FVA or a 1600 injected BDA, which is what mine has.

A BT36 will always be more valuable than a BT35 with it being an F2 and the relatively low number made (12 I think) however a BT35 is just as useable and accepted in Europe and UK.

Thanks for your information.... sorry I am still getting up to speed on this subject, so may need a bit of guidance I am afraid!

I think F2 changed to 2 litre in 72 and most cars ran 2litre FVCs in period. If I understand you correctly, nowadays in modern historic racing competitors are allowed to use 1600 injected BDA's as an alternative to the 'more expensive to run' original FVA's. Have I got that right?

Is a 1600 injected BDA engined BT35/36 competitive in historic racing.... I am assuming it would be competing against later 2 litre BDG engined cars?

Please feel free to point me in the direction of any useful websites, where I can gather more information on historic Formula 2 racing. Thanks in advance!

Yes f2 went to 2000cc in 1972, most teams used a bored out BDA to 1790cc or 1850. A few used FVC's but the BD were more universal from 72 onwards. In 73 the BMW M12 came out and practically finished Cosworths domination of F2 overnight, barring a few exceptions.

Yes the 1600cc injected BDA is pemitted as a substitute for an FVA although in reality there is little difference in the running costs, the FVA is just harder to get hold of.

A BT35/36 1600cc injected BDA wouldn't be in the same class as a 2litre f2. Both Euro F2 and Derek Bell Trophy have seperate classes for 1600cc and 2000cc F2. BT35/36's ar relatively competitive within their class are a bit on the heavy side compared to a March 712 or Lotus 69 which are the acknowledged class leaders.

From a personal point of view if I had a BT35 I would use it in the Atlantic class with a BDD. It wouldn't be much slower than a 1600 F2 and cheaper to run.

Yes f2 went to 2000cc in 1972, most teams used a bored out BDA to 1790cc or 1850. A few used FVC's but the BD were more universal from 72 onwards. In 73 the BMW M12 came out and practically finished Cosworths domination of F2 overnight, barring a few exceptions.

Yes the 1600cc injected BDA is pemitted as a substitute for an FVA although in reality there is little difference in the running costs, the FVA is just harder to get hold of.

A BT35/36 1600cc injected BDA wouldn't be in the same class as a 2litre f2. Both Euro F2 and Derek Bell Trophy have seperate classes for 1600cc and 2000cc F2. BT35/36's ar relatively competitive within their class are a bit on the heavy side compared to a March 712 or Lotus 69 which are the acknowledged class leaders.

Thanks for clarifying matters..... as it turns out the BT35 that I was stalking has been sold.

You mention brabhams being on the heavy side.... are we talking mega differences or just a few kilos? The reason I ask is that I have a fuller figure myself (16 stone+). Would I have to be on a permanent diet to be able to have any hope of running vaguely near the the front of the field?

Could anyone point me in the direction of the Historic Formula Two web site, asI have not been able to find it so far with a google search.

Thanks in advance.

Could anyone point me in the direction of the Historic Formula Two web site, asI have not been able to find it so far with a google search.

Thanks in advance.

One of our favourite sites here:-

http://www.oldracingcars.com/f2/

Unfortunately there is'nt an F2 website, although there is some info on the HSCC website. They run the F2 championship now.

My BT36 weighs about 470kg which is 20kg over the 450kg limit.

Haven't had time to read this whole thread, forgive me, but enough to still be little awed that some of you guys are collecting these things, and restored I take it. Where do you run them and how often do you get to do that? If I'm way-off or it's already been covered, excuse me.

Frank wrote - ".......but enough to still be little awed that some of you guys are collecting these things, and restored I take it. Where do you run them and how often do you get to do that?"

Frank - there is a very active Monoposto racing group here in US/Canada racing similar cars although our cutoff dates are slightly different so the most popular makes/models are somewhat different from UK/Europe. Go to monoposto.com or svra.com (look up event reports and pics done by Canadian Bob Harrington). Events in Canada are in the east - where are you?

James wrote "I would use it in the Atlantic class with a BDD. It wouldn't be much slower than a 1600 F2 and cheaper to run."

Two questions - why slower? and why cheaper to run?

I've run both and found both the hp output and maintenance cost are identical. Only difference we've found is that the carbs on a BDD are more fiddly to tune for driveability but since we generally keep within the 7000-9500 range it's largely a non-issue.

Derek

I've never run an atlantic engine so it was a bit of a guess. The 1600 BDA on Lucas Injection revs to 10k and produces 245/250bhp, the atlantic motor revs to 9k and produces 215bhp, or thats what I was led to believe. The big difference is the bore and stroke. The BDD is the standard road car BDA bore and stroke, wheras the Euro F2 regs permit injected F2 spec BDA'S to use the FVA bore and stroke which is considerably shorter, allowing it to rev higher. This results in more rebuilds as the life of the engine is less.

I've never run an atlantic engine so it was a bit of a guess. The 1600 BDA on Lucas Injection revs to 10k and produces 245/250bhp, the atlantic motor revs to 9k and produces 215bhp, or thats what I was led to believe. The big difference is the bore and stroke. The BDD is the standard road car BDA bore and stroke, wheras the Euro F2 regs permit injected F2 spec BDA'S to use the FVA bore and stroke which is considerably shorter, allowing it to rev higher. This results in more rebuilds as the life of the engine is less.

The biggest impact on the power output of an Atlantic engine was the fact that it was limited to production BDA valve sizes ... I do know that for certain 'cos I used to build them.