Circuit de Catalunya

So, watching the GP today, confirmed me in two things.

1) Circuit de Catalunya is a really dull and repetitive circuit
2) Overtaking occurs very seldonly

So, i made an edit ;).

http://img145.echo.cx/img145/3943/catalunya9xl.png (http://www.imageshack.us)
Thanks to ImageShack for Free Image Hosting (http://www.imageshack.us)

I decided to give the track some more edge and variation, and enhance the overtaking possibilities.

So, first change is in Elf. I slightly tightened the first corner, and thus also the second, to enhance overtaking possibilities. I dont like the fact that Elf as it is is not quite a chicane, but not quite a normal corner. My changes wouldnt damage the run into Renault too much.

Repsol is really too dull, and to compensate for the lack of esses in the circuit, i decided to put in a whole new section. It's a tighter Repsol, leading into a downhill acceleration through some esses, ending in a decreasing radius turn at Seat.

The runin to Wurth has been straightened, and Wurth itself is now a new corner combo, much like Club at Silverstone. Looking a second time, the exit might be drawn to tight, but i dont wanna change it now.

Campsa is left unspoiled, La Caïxa is back to the old, better version. I'd love to change Banc Sabadell, but there isnt really room enough, and honestly, i dont really know what to put in there. It could perhaps be loosened slightly.

Europcar has been made a chicane. Now, some of you might be ready to blame me as a heretic for this, but this change actually serves not only one but two good purposes. It'll se plenty of overtaking, and it'll bunch up the cars somewhat, giving them a good competitive blast through New Holland, very slightly tightened on the entrance, and it'll be easier to follow the car in front through and down to Elf to make a good move to overtake.

So, thats my five cents, i know i changed a lot, but honestly, Catalunya is a very dull sequence of very similar corners, which isnt of much variation, excitement and challenge to the drivers, and it doesnt produce overtaking nor any other kind of excitement to the viewers.

On the topic of overtaking. I'm not sure you've helped that much. The tightening of Elf has helped, but I think the final corner will still have the same problem. Ideally it would be a really easy corner that is just full throttle from the exit of the previous corner. I think the previous corner is a little too far away for that to be the case.

Here's my take:

http://img78.echo.cx/img78/7920/catalunya5iy.jpg

Most of the changes are fairly self-explanatory and obvious, but anyway, I've got time on my hands, so why not :) ;)...

Don't see any reason to change Elf, I actually quite like that pair of corners, it's quite unique - nice medium-speed flowing chicane. And the lack of passing into it isn't it's fault, it's New Holland's. Renault is obviously a great corner, so didn't even consider touching that :)

Got the inspiration for the changes at Repsol from you TR, but refined and gave it my own personal touch - went for a more open/flowing set of esses. I don't really find Repsol too dull, but agree with you on the lack of esses on the circuit. Plus, Seat isn't really much of an overtaking spot anyway, but feel like it would still be possible for lapping backmarkers. The right hand sweep before it makes braking a bit more interesting, and for overtaking the driver making the move can just keep straight and aim directly towards the apex. Overall though, if this makes the place more mickey mouse, it's entirely optional, I don't care for it much.

I've never really liked Wurth, I've always found it an awkward and unneccessary kind of corner. Perhaps the sweep before and kink after it have something to do with the way my mind views it. Anyway. With the sweep before it, I though why not just continue it right round to the exit, bypassing Wurth itself. So I did ;) It's now a very fast sweeper, and heading uphill, so hopefully one of the most fun corners on the circuit now.

The next change was one of those I felt most necessary. Passing around this circuit it seems has always been hindered by the fact that the two longest straights are preceded by far too fast corners for drivers to be able to follow (Campsa and New Holland). Thus these are the big problem areas. By tightening Campsa (the loss of a nice fast corner is made up for by the changes at Wurth), getting a run into La Caixa should now hopefully be a lot easier.

At the last section of the lap, it's all change. I hate the new La Caixa, it's typically Tilke (although the second part which makes the entry to Banc Sabbadel trickier is admittedly interesting). But it doesn't improve passing a bit IMO, so why not loosen up the flow of the circuit by reinstating the old one - much better :)

I've always thought of Banc Sabbadel as being too long, mid-speed, monotonous, and, well, plain boring. So to add a bit more variety to the track, I've given it it's first double apex. This also might have a slight positive knock on effect which works with the next change...

The final two corners. Inspite of being nice and high speed, they've always been corners to nowhere, particularly as far as passing is concerned. So I've blasted Europcar and made a gentle sweeper, and inserted a tighter corner. Passing might be possible here, particularly for last lap lunges, but it's main purpose is to give that all-important lead out onto the main straight.

And that's it. Think I've slowed the circuit a wee bit, but hopefully the changes won't be too frustrating for the drivers, and should pose a nice challenge and maybe quite fun :)

Passing at Elf, Repsol, and the old La Caixa doesn't seem to be horridly difficult in relative terms. From Repsol to Seat, and Banc Sabadell to Europcar, there just isn't enough distance to make passing all that possible, so I wouldn't mess with those. It is possible to get a good tow through those last two corners and down to Elf. If you tighten New Holland, you may bunch the field, but you also give the leader a better chance of getting a jump, which will obliterate any chance of passing at Elf, at least for that lap. Modifying La Campsa may mess up the line into La Caixa, and it will effect the run that the pursuer has, and detrimentally so I suspect. You break the tow that the following car may have heading into La Campsa, and you disrupt the flow on the back side of the course. I just don't see there really being any worthwhile changes to be made.

A major part of the issue is almost certainly due to the fact that the teams do so much testing at Catalunya, and as long as that is the case, the racing there will probably resemble a parade signficantly more than it would if that testing was not so frequent.

Here is what I would do to the Circuit de Catalunya (I posted a similar looking circuit way back in 2003). First, I extended the run to Repsol, and made Repsol tighter to look more like Seat. I then rounded out the Wurth complex, just because I'm not really a fan of the current configuration. I reinstated Nissan, but reprofiled. I tightened the right hander, but instead of rejoinging the track like it used to, I created a straight leading into a left turn similar to the previous turn. Bu doing this, La Caixa becomes a little faster. I also moved Banc Sabadell closer to La Caixa, which will hopefully make the complex of La Caixa and Banc Sabadell tougher to negotiate. The final change to the track is at New Holland. I made it tighter, hoping to bunch up the cars to allow for slipstreaming down the main straight, and a passing opprotunity at Elf. Because of the reprofiling of New Holland, I reprofiled the pit entrance, and reinstated the pit chicane, although it's tighter than the original. Hopefully, my ideas will improve overtaking areas on the track. What do you all think?

Any thoughts on my edit?

It's got it's good and bad parts. Got mixed emotions about tightening Repsol - I quite like that corner, reminds me of Parabolica, but I guess it would maybe improve overtaking. When it comes to Wurth - you darn copycat :p ;) Nah, like it. Combination of new Wurth and easier Campsa might make for a nice fast section. But don't like your Nissan idea - looks awkward IMO. Quite like what you've done with moving Banc Sabbadel. Bit unsure about New Holland. Can see what you're doing, but looks a bit "street circuit 90ish" to me.

I think the trouble with Montmélo is that you can't really improve it without really hauling the whole thing over. After seeing about a dozen GP's there, I'm still not sure whether I like the track or not. It has it's good points -- Elf and Renault, for example -- but the overall look of the track isn't very good.

By the way, isn't there talk of a new track being built near the Madrid airport. Judging from the map of the city I've seen, there's quite a bit of room west of the main airport.

The only change I would possibly make would be TR's Elf edit, only because it's bad to have a straight that long and not have a good braking turn at the end. Otherwise, I don't really see any problems with the rest of the circuit.

Elf works well as it is, and is a nice quick esse. Mandretti, I don't think you'll be able to pass at La Caixa anymore.

Repsol is the only corner you can change at Barcelona

Richard, I did this back in Aprli 2003. This is my original edit to Barcelona, so don't say I copied you. As you can see, I based my newer design on this track. You can see that Renault was cut off, nothing was changed, it's because of the old 400 by 400 rule we had for posting pictures, it just wouldn't fit.

By the way, check out this (http://www.circuitcat.com/catalan/circuit/imagenes/mapag.jpg) map.

Elf works well as it is, and is a nice quick esse. Mandretti, I don't think you'll be able to pass at La Caixa anymore.

And you can pass there now?!

I think it has a worse problem than the first corner maybe, in that you rely even more on aero grip for Campsa possibly than New Holland, and there isn't the length of straight to allow slipstream to come close to redressing the balance.

I actually think Mandretti's edit is pretty sensible, certainly more or less what I would have done.

I've seen some passes at Elf, including DC's outside move on one of the Ferraris, I belive, in 2000. The straight is long enough that even if you don't get a dynamite run out of New Holland, you can still get a relatively good run into Elf, which may allow you to pass. BTW, what is this fascination with merely trying to add overtaking opportunities?

I dunno, but its easy to get absorbed in I agree! :laugh:

Normally I like to get as good a circuit in as possible, and if there are good overtaking spots in there then that's a bonus, but sometimes I'm just as guilty of getting into the 'lets make passing places' mindset as anyone else...

EDIT: as it happens I think you may have mistaken me, I was talking about passing in La Caixa since you mentioned it of Mandretti's edit, not Elf, but it doesn't matter ;)

La Caixa is a harder place to pass. The straight leading to it is not as long as the start/finish stretch. The racing line has to cross from the left to the right, rather than staying more or less in a straight line on just one side. Also, Campsa can muck up a good run down that straight, though not as much as a tighter corner would. With Campsa, it's a fast corner with an exit that shows whether you have understeer, or it catches you out because you've simply gone in too hot period.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v452/pirenzo/mapag.jpg

My go. As I said, very similar to Mandretti's except I wanted to leave New Holland intact for other series.

Hmm... interesting view, P. Good argumentation, too. :)

Well, you can't accuse me of copying anyone: I've kept Würth and lost Campsa! No, I haven't lost my mind.

I started by making Elf a hairpin (I like overtaking!). That rather leaves no choice as to what the next corner is - it has to be Würth; having a virtual straight to Campsa would make lap times way too short. Indeed, to get the lap times back up to a sensible level, I next inserted a Würth 2, opening out onto a short straight to where Seat is now. Seat would become a pathetic bend worthy of the Hungaroring, but would nicely create no easy line into a slow 90-degree right-hander to get back onto Renault. This would then open out onto what every good circuit needs: a decent back straight. I'm probably in a considerable minority in liking how La Caixa's been tightened - this would make even more sense after a long straight - so I've tightened it even more. This leaves the problem of Banc Sabadell - I've turned it into a Rivazza-style double-right (although this is probably only marginally less unsatisfactory than the original). The last two corners get what they've always needed: banking (I've also made Europcar a lot less tight). This should lead to some great side-by-side racing.

Plan B: introduce Indy racing to Yurp.

Now that IS and interesting edit! The complete blasting required that has been mentioned earlier - finally someone's had a go!

There are a few subtle things I don't like about it, but it's sure got potential! I'll do an edit-in-edit tomorrow evening maybe :)

thats intresting very intresting ! i actuley like it !

In my edit there are a lot of changes, which create a new passing opportunity and they keep the fluent style of Barcelona

I'm not too keen on your reprofiling of SEAT nor Caïxa, but your new Campsa, and the new section thereafter is really, really great - fantastic actually ;).

Interesting change, Ricardo. Not Repsol and Seat, but Wurth and Campsa. I think there'd be room for these changes, too. I'm not entirely sure about gradient, though.

I think there'd be room for these changes, too. I'm not entirely sure about gradient, though.

Ah, that might be a concern. Concerning you'd need quite a lot of runoff for the new Campsa, i'm not sure if it'll be able to be there without disturbing the motorway right there.

Anyway, one could always move the section some way towards Wurth. That'd leave more opportunities to make Caïxa more interesting too.

my favourite corner on this circuit is the chicane after t5 ... its gone :(

Chicane after T5?

Ah, nice to see this thread again!

Chicane after T5?

Probably Wurth.

In my edit there are a lot of changes, which create a new passing opportunity and they keep the fluent style of Barcelona

I quite like it. I just don't like the bits you left alone.

Now that IS and interesting edit! The complete blasting required that has been mentioned earlier - finally someone's had a go!

There are a few subtle things I don't like about it, but it's sure got potential! I'll do an edit-in-edit tomorrow evening maybe :)

It's been a month - any chance of that edit-in-edit?

... you'd need quite a lot of runoff for the new Campsa...
That's indeed a problem. Consequently, I don't think Ricardo's change can be implemented as is, but the general idea should be possible. Perhaps the run towards the new Campsa should be a bit shorter.

That's indeed a problem. Consequently, I don't think Ricardo's change can be implemented as is, but the general idea should be possible. Perhaps the run towards the new Campsa should be a bit shorter.

I think Lustigson is right.
For this reason i have made an edit of my barcelona proposal.
Hope it's better.
There is also a chicane before the last corner to slow down the cars.

It's been a month - any chance of that edit-in-edit?
Kinda forgotten what it was exactly I was going to do! But remember it was a fair bit of reprofiling, break up that (too long) backstraight, and stick a set of esses in there somewhere, so here's what it came out like:

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/708/jamcatalunyaedit0jd.jpg

Actually, just had a bit of an "outside the box" idea...

ACW

With Elf and La Caixa being relatively slow-speed exits, medium/high speed overtaking into New Holland and Campsa might be possible. Side-by high-speed running round New Holland and Europcar, a mad dash for the brakes into Banc Sabbadel, and flat out downhill through Renault could make for some spectacular viewing!

As far as I can see, a bit of reprofiling of Wurth and Repsol would be needed, and the obvious problem of changed run off areas.

What do you reckon? ;)

These are the critical areas in Ricardo's design:

http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/646/catalunya9rp.th.gif (http://img65.imageshack.us/my.php?image=catalunya9rp.gif)

I've taken the liberty of tightening Repsol, too. ;)

IMO, i still prefer ricardoreyes' original track, with a shortened run to Campsa - make it 150-200 metres shorter and you'll have a perfectly functional track - with some nice climbs too :).

As far as concerns ricardoreyes' last proposal, i dont really dig the idea. The new change at SEAT isn't for the better, and the chicane at New Holland certainly isn't.

Lustigs track is pretty interesting, though, i like that little section between Campsa and Caïxa on ricardoreyes track, that you left out. I also dont fancy tightening Repsol, but that's a predictable lustig-move (no offense there ;))

Ok Guys, i'm either gonna get shot down in flames, or hailed in a blaze of glory for this edit.

It is a total revamp. First of all, I should say that it is loosely based on this design by Daniel Stafford, as featured at Conrad's; Fantasy Tracks;

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/5763/danielstaffordcatalunya3ul.th.jpg (http://img209.imageshack.us/my.php?image=danielstaffordcatalunya3ul.jpg)

I think you'll agree with me, that this circuit would be way too long now. I loved what he did at the top of the circuit, and I had a go at incorporating a similar idea into my edit, whilst also reducing the length.

I am not a big fan of the original circuit at all, and IMO it needs a complete revamp, I feel that there is no corner worth keeping really.

Therefore, I produced this;

http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/3169/catalunyavariant1grandprix3pj.th.png (http://img363.imageshack.us/my.php?image=catalunyavariant1grandprix3pj.png)

Let me give you a quick tour;

The main straight cuts off at the current first turn of the national circuit. From what I have seen of the circuit, there is quite a gradient change between the main straight and the straight just opposite it after Seat on the real course. I thought this national circuit first turn would make for an interesting spectacle, and perhaps promotes the overtaking.

I then eased Wurth, making it a flat left - before heading on upto a new Campsa corner. A left hander, which takes the drivers onto the new section of the circuit. It's up through the gears, through the Renault kink, before another passing opportunity up at the Repsol hairpin.

A long backstraight follows, before the fast multi-apexer at Seat (this corner would require a lot of run-off). It would be approached at a similar kind of speed as that of Spoon corner at Suzuka.

This corner eventually wraps around into the Vidal (named after the young Frenchman who lost his life at Nissan) - hairpin, another passing spot. The Nissan straight then follows, and this is a continuation of the Nissan corner, but rather than jinking left - it heads straight down, before a fast left at La Caixa, and the final New Holland Corner.

As far as I can see, there are four major passing spots. And high speed and challenging corners, with heavy gradient changes - it would be fabulous.

If space became an issue, the pit straight could be moved to up between Repsol and Seat.

Here is the national circuit;

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/4409/catalunyavariant2national3ss.th.png (http://img294.imageshack.us/my.php?image=catalunyavariant2national3ss.png)

This basically cuts off at Campsa, and rejoins the Nissan straight. This uses the original Campsa/Nissan section of the current circuit, rather than the newer version introduced in 1995.

I took the liberty of creating a Google Earth overview, please read the notes they help it make sense;

http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/3175/catalunyagoogleearthovervjpeg7.th.jpg (http://img53.imageshack.us/my.php?image=catalunyagoogleearthovervjpeg7.jpg)

---

Any comments would be greatly recieved.

Sorry but am not a fan of that at all. The 2 corners before the main straight are quite something & it would be a shame to get rid of them. I will do an edit later.

I thought about trying to include the final section. I might try and do it, see what it looks like.

And here it is; I just changed Banc Sabadell.

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/6952/catalunyavariant1rgp8hx.th.png (http://img211.imageshack.us/my.php?image=catalunyavariant1rgp8hx.png)

Here's my go!
http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/5943/newcatalunya5dc.th.png (http://img453.imageshack.us/my.php?image=newcatalunya5dc.png)

hmm I don't know. Nothing you can do to that place to make it look "right" imo.