Group 5 BMW 320's.

Can anyone help with information no matter how small or seemingly unimportant about the wonderful BMW 320 E21's which raced in the Deutsche Rennsport Meisterschaft(DRM) from 1977 to 1982. These cars were the M3's of its day and many were produced by a variety of teams, had numerous drivers and ever changing colour schemes which make them very difficult to follow. I am helping to try to identify the providence of a number of well used and travelled cars and any help would be more than welcome. Thanks in advance.

Oops!! You can tell I am new at this game! I put my name when posting the thread where it said title, instead of the title of the new thread!! I will get the hang of the technology in the end! Please look under Ian Beckett21 for the intended request!

Ian, threads merged; hope that's O.K, and welcome back to 10-Tenths!

Look forward to seeing the responses here; have a bit of a soft spot for these cars myself!

There was an artist/industrial designer that created the actual shape of one, it was more 'organic' then the factory cars. Anybody know the name of the artist? I remember seeing a book of his designs years ago, and sure enough the car was in there.


robert

Alex Elliot is your man.
Posts here sometimes, so try a search.

Hi Ian.. One of these cars briefly passed through my hands a few years ago.. Never really got round tro serious research but I did aquire a number of books, period plastic "kits", photos, resin kits, posters, period magazines etc... If you're in the process of building a collection then let me know if you're interested in this sort of thing.. My collection also includes much the same for the Werks CSL Batmobiles..
Jeff

Dear Jeff, I would be extremely interested in anything to do with racing BMW's. Can you let me know some more details? I am trying to unravel the histories of the 320 as I said in the original thread but I also collect scale models,photographs and race reports from that era. I look forward to hearing from you.Cheers Ian.

Hi ian!.. I hope you don't regret asking that question!.. I have a pretty big collection !!.. Most of its in storage at the moment, but give me a couple of days / the weekend to dig out some stuff.. I'll take some pics and email them to you.. Rather than bore the forum (?) you might be best to email by PM .. BTW, where are you based? jeff

[QUOTE=Jeff Barley]Rather than bore the forum (?) /QUOTE]


Wouldn't be a bore, these cars were interesting and I would also like to know more. We saw a few here in the States, but I know little about their European history.

robert

Hi Robert!.. I do have info in my collection covering the US exposure of these cars.. ie Citibank etc etc, plus race programme from the US.. I'll let Ian have first refusal on what might be of interest to him and then let you know in case anything else might be of interest to.. No doubt Ian and you will debating the history of these magnificent cars, but I'll have to bail out of detailed "chats" because of our new arrival !..
Plus I guess we have all suffered from "misinformation" in the past and how critical it is to avoid passing on info that is actually only part factual or is believed to be "the truth".. What I'm trying to say is that I don't want to start reciting "facts" from memory and run the risk of misleading anyone simply because I don't have the time to re-check my facts before I "post them".. However..That said I owned one of the Gp 5 European cars..plus what might have been an ex-Werks CSL.. Plus a werks E30 M3 (One of the Linder Team cars from 1990 DTM)..plus an E36 Supertourer (Swisss series)..plus a ex Gp2 320.. All of which have now been sold, so you can imagine I gathered quite a lot of info on what was a broad collection of BMW's.. Afraid a divorce put paid to that little lot, but boy was it fun!!!

Just a quickie,

A club racer called Brian Chatfield successfully ran an ex Peterson 320i in uk special saloons for a number of years in the 1980's. I've got a picture of it hanging off the back of a trailor at Donington in '85 sbut unfortunately haven't got a printer/scanner so i can't post it on here for you!

I don't have any contact details for Brian, but the moderators might have a clue? I would imagine he would be a good source of info on these cars, or try the BARC at Thruxton circuit, he might be a member?

Dear Chunterer, thanks for the reply. I think I was at that meeting. Brian Chatfield also ran an ex-Zakspeed M3 in club events and I have a snippet of information in my files that he may also have had an ex_Stuck /Schnitzer 320 at some point in time. Does anyone have a contact for Brian? Anybody know anything about this or the whereabouts of any 320 group 5 cars in the UK? I am a little surprised at how few responses I have had so far. Is there really so little interest out there? Thanks Ian.

Dear All, in my haste/keyboard incompetence, I said that Brian Chatfield's M3 was ex-Zakspeed. It was actually ex-Alpina, one of the vivid green cars raced in the DTM in 1987. It is important to correct errors on these forums because comments can soon become fact! Bye..Ian.

Ian, I don't think it is a lack of intrest. As I work in Germany, it seems even the Germans don't know where all those 320s are.
Most of the "big ones" are probably tucked away in some garages over here.
Two or three group 5's occasionally appear at smaller races, but who the original drivers were I don't know. (repainted)

You're right Eddy V; it's definitely not lack of interest; just lack of knowledge. Also, of course, some of the historic threads tend to have a slower response rate than say (for obvious reasons) the F1 threads.

Ian, don't lose heart; we may still tease some more info. out on this; it might just be slow burner. In the meantime, if you can post any new information on here as it comes to light, it may trigger other memories and responses.

With regard to lack of knowledge: I think the first appearance in States was Watkins Glen six hours, with Peterson and Villeneuve, and then a year later the McLaren BMW, the CitiBank car, appeared in IMSA, first with the atmo engine, and soon followed by the Turbo, which McLaren and Busby raced. Was the McLaren connection only in the States, and I believe McLaren developed the Turbo engine? On the Europe cars that may have been Turbo, was that the same engine, or was it developed independently of the McLaren USA version?


robert

The first appearance of a 320 turbo in US racing was at Road Atlanta, April 1977, 3rd round of the IMSA series. Hobbs finished 4th o/a in the main race. Its blown 2-litre engine was developed by McLaren Engines in the USA.
Another 2-litre 320 turbo was seen at Brands Hatch and this was built by BMW Motorsport in Munich.

Hi!

I've done some digging aroud the subject also: there were 2 Gr5 cars in Finland in late 80's and they were sold to UK. One was works junior team car with 2.0 16v n/a engine and the other was a Schnitser 1.4 8v tbo (later upgrated to 2l tbo). The latter car was for sale about a year ago in UK.

Does this help anyone anyway?

The first appearance of a 320 turbo in US racing was at Road Atlanta, April 1977, 3rd round of the IMSA series. Hobbs finished 4th o/a in the main race. Its blown 2-litre engine was developed by McLaren Engines in the USA.
Another 2-litre 320 turbo was seen at Brands Hatch and this was built by BMW Motorsport in Munich.

Thought 2 x 320 turbos came to Australia for the Frank Gardner/Alan Grice factory backed team - am I right? Ex Hobbs rings a bell.

Hi!

I've done some digging aroud the subject also: there were 2 Gr5 cars in Finland in late 80's and they were sold to UK. One was works junior team car with 2.0 16v n/a engine and the other was a Schnitser 1.4 8v tbo (later upgrated to 2l tbo). The latter car was for sale about a year ago in UK.

Does this help anyone anyway?

Did Brian Chatfield get one of these over here (UK) ??

i was wondering that as well - Brian's car which he raced in Special Saloons had the 2 litrre engine i think - i think he may also have put a Hart F2 engine in it to 'save' or replace the original Beeem unit, but i don't know that for sure.

I remember Brian's car was a sort of Red and Silver livery, but i think he resprayed it?

I saw Brian race the car at Thruxton in 1988 (?) in a BTCC supporting Special Saloons race. The car was plain white that day.

I would really appreciate it if anyone has pictures of Brian Chatfields car.It was an ex-HAT car from 1977 used in the DRM series by amongst others, Ronnie Peterson. The car was then sold via Tom Walkinshaw to a chap called Gerry Tyack from the Cotswold area He ran the car at the Prescott hillclimb in 1978 still in the colours and sponsorship as it had last raced in Germany. The car then passed to Brian Chatfield who had it from 1984 to 1988 when he used it in Club events. During this time, Chatfield also acquired a second car, supposedly ex-Schnitzer? Does anyone know any more or even the whereabouts of these cars today?

Memory fades with age, but Brian definitely ran the car in the Combe GT series for some time and I <i>think</i> it's the one he ran in Thundersaloons when I was doing it in late 80s. I'm sure it was white.

Brian ran, amongst other businesses, a vehicle dismantlers and a 4x4 dealership in the Trowbridge, Wiltshire area. He may still be here, but I haven't heard of him for some time. Try tracking him down via Combe circuit?

I remember watching Peterson in (that?) car in '77 at the Silverstone 6 hours in the rain. Great memories!

The car you remember at the Silverstone 6 hours was the Faltz car of Ronnie Peterson and Helmut Kelleners. The car was bright orange and sponsored by Jagermeister. The car brought to Britain by Gerry Tyack and then sold to Brian Chatfield was white with blue panels.

The car mentioned above has been restored and I have recently purchased it as a rolling chassis. I plan to fit a M12/7 F2 motor as it originally ran in the 70's. The gentleman I purchased it from also has some knowledge on the car from Finland.
The car is at present all white.

It is difficult to say "where the cars are" as many were built by private teams from production shells or upgraded from Gp.2 cars, even after the end of Gp.5 as such. A few were "re-shelled" with E30 shells to create newer specials. Post-1976 Gp.5 cars are hardly ever allowed to race anywhere so these cars don't show up in historic racing much.

The 320 Bmw Cars Ran The 2 Litre F2 M12 Engine In Europe In Dtm And Group 5 Races With The Group6 Wsc Races The Bmw Team Had Petersen Cheever In The Junior Team In Usa They Ran Turbo 1.4 Engines
I Recall Gerry Tyzac Sprinting Group 5 320 Bimmer In The Late 70`s

Chatfield Raced His Bimmer In Thundersaloon And Coombe Gt Races
He Shared His Car With The Greek Guy And He Has 320 As Well He Claimsto Be The Sheckter Car In His Garage In Greece
Ive Seen Some Cars For Sale But Most Are In Collectors Hands And Race In The New Timer Races In Germany

DW, the original Junior Team 320s in '77 were for Surer, Cheever, Winklehock (Manfred). Ronnie wasn't a 'junior' by then !

As Dan mentioned earlier today,the Junior Team created for the 1977 German series comprised of Eddie Cheever,Marc Surer and Manfred Winkelhock. They perhaps showed a little too much enthusiasm and a lack of experience in the early season races and to curb some of this 'macho' behaviour, the BMW management put Hans Stuck,Ronnie Peterson and David Hobbs in the three cars for the Diepholz round where would you believe,Peterson crashed out! This trio were named the Gentlemens Team by the management! Stuck won the race and Hobbs was fifth. The cars were then passed back to the Juniors for the rest of the season and all three went on to race 320's the following season for different teams before moving to F1 and sportscars.

Dan i was a junior when the lads where racing i saw cars at BH 6 hr races !!
cheever was 17/18 at the time when he raced the cars

The first appearance of a 320 turbo in US racing was at Road Atlanta, April 1977, 3rd round of the IMSA series. Hobbs finished 4th o/a in the main race. Its blown 2-litre engine was developed by McLaren Engines in the USA.
Another 2-litre 320 turbo was seen at Brands Hatch and this was built by BMW Motorsport in Munich.

Hmmmmm...'not positive, but I attended the 24 heures of Daytona (first race of the IMSA season) in '77 and I seem to recollect Hobbs starting a 320it..didna finish tho'... :?


Ahh-ha! T'is so (Hobbs, Posey, and Peterson; 40th)... http://www.wspr-racing.com/wspr/results/imsa/imsa1977.html#1
:nyah:

The first race of the '77 IMSA season was indeed at the Daytona 24 hours and Hobbs together with Ronnie Peterson and Sam Posey drove the car but retired. In Jeremy Walton's Unbeatable BMW book a photo caption does state that the turbo engine made its debut at round three-Atlanta and the 1978 IMSA yearbook states that at Daytona the car ran with a standard 2 litre motor which left it way behind the turbocharged Porsches. This lack of power seems to have accelerated BMW's decision to go down the turbo route themselves some time before they did so in Europe. In the US,Mclaren Engines prepared the motors while factory built units were used elsewhere.

Hi, it's great to see there is still interest in the G5 era. Can anyone point me towards some good books on the cars or championships? Were any yearbooks ever issued perhaps for the DRM?
I am slowly building a collection of reports programmes etc on the 76-81 era - does anyone know where I can get hold of the timing sheets, hourly reports that were issued at the races? Would the race organisers have records of these?
Sorry for all the questions!!
Regards
Geoff

i bought a book on bmw cars in german good fotos f2 and Gp 5 cars
rolf heggen
fazination rennstruccke
isbn 3430 141958
i found it thru abebook.com
rare book so get yr weekly beer money out and brace yrself!
im sure the germans have year books if u look on some websites u will see results

The first race of the '77 IMSA season was indeed at the Daytona 24 hours and Hobbs together with Ronnie Peterson and Sam Posey drove the car but retired. In Jeremy Walton's Unbeatable BMW book a photo caption does state that the turbo engine made its debut at round three-Atlanta and the 1978 IMSA yearbook states that at Daytona the car ran with a standard 2 litre motor which left it way behind the turbocharged Porsches. This lack of power seems to have accelerated BMW's decision to go down the turbo route themselves some time before they did so in Europe. In the US,Mclaren Engines prepared the motors while factory built units were used elsewhere.

Correct, it was the atmo engine at Daytona and Sebring.

In fact the 320 did not race at Sebring in 1978 presumably because they were converting the car from 2 litre to the turbo engine. The track at Sebring was known to be a car breaker and not really suitable for a vehicle in its infancy?

I thought I recalled seeing the car there and went and looked at wspr-racing.com. They show 320i with Hobbs, Klauser and Minter in 38th position? That was the same McLaren entry that was entered at Daytona 24?

robert

There is a confusion of years here! The season we are discussing is 1977 and the Citibank 320 did not race at Sebring. The following year they were indeed 38th in the hands of Hobbs/Minter/Klausler.

OMG! Thanks, you are correct, I was all over the map on the year :o

robert

Happy New Year everyone! I am hoping to build a model of the 320 sponsored by JPS which raced in Australia in the early '80's. Does anyone know of sources of photo evidence which would be helpful to me? Thanks in advance Ian Beckett.

the team was run by frank gardener
1st port of call will be any Ozzie touring car year end book bathurst books and the ozzie year end annuals
try collectors car books at silverstone chris has many books
if your really stuck there are 2 or 3 shops in Oz i bought some books in 1990 in sydney after i had been to bathurst
PM me and i can get my buddies down there to sort this out

there may be an ozzie touring car website woth fotos off hand not come across any
i have been to FG musuem in Brisbane now sold school to Merc benz he may own museum still i will ask my brizzy mate who took me there

Happy New Year everyone! I am hoping to build a model of the 320 sponsored by JPS which raced in Australia in the early '80's. Does anyone know of sources of photo evidence which would be helpful to me? Thanks in advance Ian Beckett.

Ian, try here (about midway down the page).

http://www.autopics.com.au/cache/searchl-ncache0public_nameLIKE_bmw_name_0-0.html?cache=no

I seem to recall the JPS team having a second car which appeared in 1982-83, driven by Jim Richards, which was turbo charged and raced in Sports Sedan events. I think Richards was leading the '83 championship before being involved in a massive crash moments after the start of the Adelaide race. Then the same car was rebuilt and raced at Sandown in '83 as normally aspirated when the World Sportscar championship visited Aus.

There are no photos of the Richards car (or is it the Grice car with different bodykit?) for some reason on the Autopics site, but email them and they might have some photos which could help.

I have several photos of the car(s) from my Australian Motor Race annuals, but I don't have them here. I'll get them in a couple of weeks from storage and let you know.

Ian, here are a some interesting photos and info from the USA competition.

http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/Mid-Ohio-1977-08-28-photo.html

http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/Daytona-1977-10-26-photo.html

http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/Laguna_Seca-1977-10-09-photo.html

http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/Sebring-1978-03-18-photo.html

http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/Mid-Ohio-1978-08-27-photo.html

http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/Daytona-1978-11-26-photo.html

http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/Riverside-1979-04-22-photo.html

http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/Mid-Ohio-1979-07-15-photo.html

Hope these are of some use, if you haven't already seen them.

And here are some more.............

http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/Havirov-1978-05-21-photo.html

http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/Piestany-1978-08-06-photo.html

http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/Havirov-1979-05-27-photo.html

http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/Havirov-1981-05-17-photo.html

http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/Havirov-1983-06-19-photo.html

http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/Nurburgring-1978-04-02-photo.html

This one is a good one.........

http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/Nurburgring-1978-04-30-photo.html

and.............

http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/Nurburgring-1978-10-01-photo.html

http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/Hockenheim-1980-04-13-photo.html

http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/Norisring-1980-06-22-photo.html

http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/Zolder-1981-03-22-photo.html

Ian, try here (about midway down the page).

http://www.autopics.com.au/cache/searchl-ncache0public_nameLIKE_bmw_name_0-0.html?cache=no

I seem to recall the JPS team having a second car which appeared in 1982-83, driven by Jim Richards, which was turbo charged and raced in Sports Sedan events. I think Richards was leading the '83 championship before being involved in a massive crash moments after the start of the Adelaide race. Then the same car was rebuilt and raced at Sandown in '83 as normally aspirated when the World Sportscar championship visited Aus.

There are no photos of the Richards car (or is it the Grice car with different bodykit?) for some reason on the Autopics site, but email them and they might have some photos which could help.

I have several photos of the car(s) from my Australian Motor Race annuals, but I don't have them here. I'll get them in a couple of weeks from storage and let you know.

Looked in the annuals - one car went to (Beric?) Lynton & when raced the rear guards differ from the car as it arrived from the US.
There is a photo of the Richards car at Sandown but it is side on & black in colour so very difficult to pick - maybe the Richards book has something - anyone?

Hello everyone, just to try to keep things from dropping off the radar, I wondered if anyone had had any sudden flashes of inspiration regarding my original requests on these cars. Certainly enough interest has been generated by the number of folks who have visited the thread but things have gone a little quiet! All for now Ian.

A very old topic but still.... Actually there was three group5 320s in Finland.
That BMW Motorsport jr.team car (driven 1st by Tuisku Urpiala) is/was said to be ex-Ronnie Pettersson and was finally sold to some collector or such in UK along with the 3rd car. That one came from Sweden without technics and was paired with Volvo B23 in here. As said, it went also to UK
The Schnizer Turbo (driven here by Nicke Wiik) is somewhat questionable, but at some point it was rebuild to original shape by MAT (Mäkelä Auto Tuning) and as far as I have been told, then sold to USA. Maybe to same address as ex-Bächi Sauber BMW M1 (original !!). The buyers are very much bussiness secrets and untill the owner comes to publicity himself, it will remain more or less mystery what actually happened to those cars.

Hi Don,
I can confirm that all 3 of the Gp 5 320`s came to England. For your info see below;

1/ The ex Schnitzer 320 turbo car you describe (chassis # I have somewhere...) was bought by someone here in England who then sold it to me & I then sold it to Steve Elliott (no relation to me...) who sold it via auction to a dealer in France. My investigations showed that it was a real car that Schnitzer built in late 1976 (must be the first one they built...) & they used through a period of a few years on & off before selling it to Albrecht Jrebs. He had Warsteiner as sponsor in 1979 or 80 (?) It still had the Wagenpass but I don`t know how accurate it was.

2/ The `ex BMW Junior Team` 320 chassis # E21 R1 22 actually wasn`t. Although it was built in early `77 there was no trace of BMW actually using the car in that season. It is possible it was loaned to another team, HAT, Faltz, etc....but it was then sold to BMW Sweden who raced the car in the World Championship in `78. The car is still here with me waiting for restoration.

3/ The last 320 was a mystery to me . I bought the car from John Westman,
When I got the car it had an old Schnitzer 16 valve engine from a 2002 rally car. I assume this was the car that had the Volvo engine ? I found pictures of the car racing at Spa when Kenneth Liem & Christer Simonsen owned it & it had a Schnitzer engine back then, 1982 I think. Eventually I found that it was once painted gold & also found that it was built by GS Tuning. This led me to Jorg Obermoser who confirmed that GS Tuning built his Warsteiner 320 in 1977. So I am thinking that it must be that car. It is still sitting here waiting for some attention !

i hope that solves some mysteries.

Regards Alex.

Very big thankyou...:rotate:
May I ask if you could provide me some photos of those cars (2 and 3) for my net project (www.geocities.com/supersaloon2000).

Did the car number 2 also came from Westman ?

I love the DRM. I always seem to like the warsteiner sponsored cars. what is ironic though is that Jörg Obermoser was known as the 'fanta-king' and that he apparently didn't like beer at all. You got to admire the fact that he was sponsored by warsteiner for most of his car, including his TOJ sports cars. The Warsteiner brewery was right on his companys doorstep.

I have been on a few german forum but no-one seems to know what happened to all the dozens of group 5 cars. Only other 320 is the fruit of the loom car, which is in germany in a private collection, it will probaply never be raced again.

http://www.lisa-race.de/Gruppe_5_DRM/Galerie_DRM/DRM_Galerie_5/B2066.jpg

Only other 320 is the fruit of the loom car, which is in germany in a private collection, it will probaply never be raced again.

http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/1978/Nurburgring-1978-04-02-056.jpg

Do you mean that car ? I understood that it is the same car which nowdays rests in Alex's garage. It is clearly a GS Tuning car and said to be driven by Obermoser.

Only other 320 is the fruit of the loom car, which is in germany in a private collection, it will probaply never be raced again.


Sorry chaps I meant ONLY OTHER 320 I KNOW OF is fruit of the loom, or at least it was with JB racing in germany then sold to a private collector. I gather it's not with Alex otherwise I'm sure he would've listed it.

The fruit of the loom car was driven by Höttinger I believe. Indeed it is a GS tuning car. Alex's GS tuning car is as far as I understand the warsteiner Obermoser car.

I wonder what happened to the other DRM 320, the privateer cars, were they all butchered up and fitted with other engines gearboxes etc...

The (Bruce) Lynton car was the Frank Gardner (god-awfull) creation. It was built by Frank because he could build a better "mouse-trap" than the factory and take advantages of the Sports Sedan Regs in Australia at the time! It was a pig.

It went form JPS BMW (Grice) to John Briggs (who spent a bag of money at K & A) before being sold to Bruce Lynton then (maybe someone else) then Geoff Munday, unsure from there but ended up with a rotary in it (in NSW) and from all reports, Frank's chassis was still having trouble with that amount of torque!!!!!

The genuine (McLaren) Grp 5 chassis that Grice imported went from JPS (Richards) to Robin Doherty to Rob Burns to the US many years ago!!!!

Hi Camaroz,
The spaceframe 320 built by Gardner I think ended up in Hong Kong but is now in NZ being restored I think.
Regarding the other 2 cars that were in Australia they were not ex McLaren but came from Jim Busby in the US. One car returned to California years ago as you say & is now being restored. The other car I brought to England about 8 years ago & is now being restored in Sweden.

Alex

To see some 320 Group 5 cars in their later competition lives try the following site....www.graf-vlad.de Look for Galerien on right side of screen then scroll down to Bilder von Norbert Vogel.Scroll down through the Opels etc until you reach the BMW's.You can click on the photos to enlarge them. Ian.

Hi Camaroz,
The spaceframe 320 built by Gardner I think ended up in Hong Kong but is now in NZ being restored I think.
Regarding the other 2 cars that were in Australia they were not ex McLaren but came from Jim Busby in the US. One car returned to California years ago as you say & is now being restored. The other car I brought to England about 8 years ago & is now being restored in Sweden.

Alex
Further to Alex's comment on the space frame 320, I think it was actually discovered in a sad state in Pattaya, Thailand near the Bira circuit in the early 90's and I believe was purchased with a bunch of ex-driving school single seaters, then bought to HK and stored and then to NZ. So someone possibly raced it in Thailand after Australia. I think it still had the rotary in it when found.

what Gp5 car did Gerry Tyzack have in the late 70`s early 80`s i saw it at the Brighton Speed trials he also had a 328 and a 3 litre CSL

Brian Chatfield raced a Gp 5 car in the late 80`s/early 90`s i found a photo of it last night going thru my pile of old race photos

Hi Driftwood,
The car Gerry Tyack had was then sold to Brian Chatfield, he had two 320 Gp 5 cars. The ex Tyack car was chassis #E21-R1-7 and was originally the Hohmann Auto Tecnic car that ran in the DRM in 1977 & was driven by Ronnie Peterson among others. I think Tom Walkinshaw originally brought the car to the UK as he was a good friend of Petersons, I have a letter from TWR stating this. So he must have sold the car to Gerry I would guess early 1980`s. The car is now in the hands os a fellow contributor to this forum, Adrian B.
The second car Chatfield owned was also an interesting car. it was chassis # E21-R1-12 & was the Junior Team car driven by Eddie Cheever for all of the DRM races in 1977 except the first race at Zolder (where he destroyed another car...) and the race at Diepholz where Hans Stuck drove the car in the `BMW Gentlemans Team` when the `Juniors` were banned for one race. is became the BMW Italia 320 & raced in the World Championship by Osella with Francia and Cheever driving.
Fortunately both cars have their original ` ONS Wagenpasses` with their history contained within.

Regards Alex.

Thaks for info i often wondered what car Tyack had and where it went
where is the 2nd BC car now?
I remember as a sprog watching the BMW Junior team at Brands Gp 5 6 hr race in 76 or 77

Hi folks, I just noticed the thread and thought I'd contribute with a copy of an email I received some time back re the JPS cars. Pip in the email is Pip Barker ex spannerman of Team JPS BMW and Ludwig (Goofy) is ex BMW motorsport Germany F one team engine builder and JPS BMW engine builder and driver, but I'm probably telling you stuff that you guys already know. Can I email a pic to someone of a JPS car for someone to post as I can't?
Cheers
David

Hi David,

We met at ECR 2 yrs ago when Pip introduced us.

Some of those ten-tenths guys are still confused about these cars so I thought you would provide this info and pic.

The 320 2 litre was used for display only by JPS team until 1 only race in JPS colours, WSC 1984 Jim/Tony.

I prepared and raced it after that for Glenn Molloy until it was sold and dismantled. I first raced it in form you see in 3 of these pics (FIA GP5 Spec).

We ran the car in 1984 when I broke the Amaroo under 2 litre first time out.

It was changed to Aussie sports sedan specs (narrow 10" wheels) and painted light blue with some lighter Kevlar panels I made from orig moulds.

Although only 2 Litre and using old used tyres off Jim's 635, I always made the division one sports sedan final at Amaroo in the national televised events usually finishing in the top 10 against the likes of the Monzas,Tommos merc, the Jag etc. One pic shows a Young Brad Jones (with hair) getting into Tommo's Monza!

Frank asked if we would help him keep Ludwig interested in staying around ( I think he was thinking of going back home). We agreed to manage him through a process of 5 races to get a race licence and make a name for him in the car. (For Ludwig we imported sticky New Avons for almost every event!)

As agreed, Ludwig was entered (and dominated) in club races to get a licence and progress off his provisional "P" competition licence.

I resumed my driving of the car and continued to develop it in set-up and minor tweaks. The car was easily 3 sec quicker than any other 2 litre sports sedan at Amaroo so the challenge was to keep lowering the lap record which I did over a 5 year period.
Frank was delighted that it was never butchered and was one of the only cars he had ever sold which was developed to go faster. Usually, when a new buyer could not go as quick, the first thing they did was "Fix the car".
We stopped racing it around 1988/89 when the necessary mufflers to meet noise restrictions killed the horsepower. It made all its power between 7500 and 9500 rpm and was measured at 145dba. The car was sold to a Sydney collector then stripped for rebuild but was again sold, then in parts. I went Porsche racing

Molloy also had one of the turbo cars, the last one JPS ran which Jim drove, pic # iii. It is the one from the AIR accident rebuilt lighter and stiffer. You can see it actually had a type of ground effects from this rear shot. It was LHD with a Getrag Box. I drove it with a faulty boost Gauge which meant we were unknowingly running 36 pounds, enough power to spin the 19" x 16"wide soft Dunlops the entire length of O.Park 9500 RPM in 5th which the gearchart said was 175 MPH. We did some demo laps for sponsors etc 45sec lap from standing start.

We sold the car to Rob Doherty, he sold it to Rob Burns who sold it to USA. Last I heard it was running in Historic IMSA.

The other turbo, which Grice drove, was spaceframe with a Hewland Transaxle. Last I saw it was running a Mazda rotary a few years back.

There was also a yellow rodenstock sponsored space-frame Schnitzer car in 79ish. I don't think it was a big succes as they were rarely seen or was it destroyed or something?

Alex can you shed any light on this car?

Schnitzer built this dramatically lower car during the first half of 1979 and hoped it would give Manfred Winkelhock an advantahe over the Zakspeed Capri of Hans Heyer.The car was tested by Winkelhock at the Salzburgring track but appeared to offer no real advantage and the car was not raced until Marc Surer ran it at Hockenheim.Over the winter it was further refined and in the 1980 DRM series two cars were raced By Hans Stuck and Walter Brun. Stuck had some success but the car never gave the leap in performance that was hoped for it.A car was sold to Karl Oppitzhauser from Austria who ran it in a variety of events in vivid orange with white spots! He also bizzarely used it on a hillclimb event with a downhill skiier strapped on the roof! I think Schnitzer retained one car which raced in Thailand(?) driven br Roberto Ravaglia in'84(?) sponsored by JPS in their black with gold pinstripe colours. I do not know of the whereabouts of either car today(anyone know?) Pictures of the car can be found on the Racingsportscars site and also on Oppitzhausers own website. I hope this helps.Ian.

Hi Driftwood,
The second of the BC cars I owned for a time & ran it at Le Mans Classic, it now has a new owner in the USA where it will go when I have finished a few jobs on it.
It was quite interesting when I stripped it to restore it I found that bulkheads & some of the floor were aluminium, but were obviously made using the production pressing & pop-riveted to the body. When painted black they just looked like all the others.
Alex

Don

i looked at your webpage www.geocities.com/supersaloon2000
interesting cars!!-is it possible to give the info in english

I seek info on 1977 78 79 BMW 320 i ownership of a car i have to restore
I seek info on Gustav Fischer he raced a near dayglo red/orange Bimmer in 1978
I would like to find out any info before the car gets painted in the "wrong" colours
Car was possibly Warsteiner Obermoser car but Jorg said his car from GS Tuning was used in 1978 by Marcus Hottinger in Fruit of the Loom livery and both Fischer and Hottinger race at the same events in 2 or more occasions

1 is Fischer still around?
2 who did he get the car from and who did he sell the car to?
3 Kenneth Lim had a car in 1982 perhaps in the ownership chain of this car again any info to get the car from Fischer to Lim?

I think a german speaker is required and a collection of the german autosport mags for weekly news reports comments and maybe for sale ads to get the info

Hi Driftwood,Fischer's car was self built using the remains of one of the Junior Team cars,the one crashed by Eddie Cheever at the opening round of the '77 DRM at Zolder.I have been following the Group 5 320 since its first race and sadly this is one of the cars with little information available about it.I have virtually all the race reports of the DRM series from German magazines of the day,I also speak some German and I have come up with very little and have not been able to track down Herr Fischer.I look forward to seeing what your search can find.All the very best with the rebuild,I envy you you ownership! Ian.

Thanks Ian
any new son Obermoser car being the fruit of the loom Hottinger car in the private collection?
do u have any more photos or info on Herr Fischer BMW car
any more info on the car being built rom the remains of Cheever car
ie was it a motorsport shell or a std shell Fischer bolted onto with motorsport kit and the cheever running gear
maybe u can PM me with yr email address so yoiu can send me directly some pics scans DNA samples !
I downloaded some 77 78 BMW car pics from the RSC site and i can see variations in front wheels arches rear arches and oil cooler ducts plus rear wings front air dams
The 2 Fruit of Loom cars of Hottinger and Krebs in 78 have different front wheel arches

@Driftwood I will have a dig through my 1978 magazines!

Regarding the fruit of the loom cars, there is a Heidegger version and a GS-tuning version.

Heidegger version first appeared 1977, driven Peter Schneeberger.

GS-tuning; well you already know, really.

Thanks Kurt
yes i have found 1 foto Schneeburger heidegger car

There is a mention of a 1975 Fischer-Technik 2002, must be one gustav fischer's cars. It was sold to the same private collection as the hottinger car near niederaula, germany. Look here: http://www.jb-racing.de/fahrzeug/fzgarchiv.htm for more DRM 320s

Look red one here; GS-tuning built car, however it is from 1979:

http://www.lisa-racing.com/Gruppe_5_DRM/Galerie_DRM/DRM_Galerie_1/DRM_79_34.JPG

In the back a red 320 I've never seen before
http://www.lisa-racing.com/Gruppe_5_DRM/Galerie_DRM/DRM_Galerie_1/DRM_79_27.JPG

who is driving this car in 79?

Norisring 1979:First place is Hans-Georg Burger in GS Tuning car,sponsored by Glysantin.second place is either Walter Brun or Edy Brandenburger in Abel Lepitre(champagne) car,they were teammates and had same sponsor and finally is Wolfgang Braun in GS Tuning car backed by Fruit of the Loom.

is wolfgang braun in the car Hottinger raced in 78 or the Kreb car?

The car Braun is driving is that used by Markus Hottinger in 1978. During the '79 season it was also driven by Michael Krankenberg/Albrecht Krebs and at the final race by Franz Grassl.

Driftwood, until now I haven't found any clue in my german 1978 magazines for the car your restoring. The magazine tend to concentrate on the top half of the field (logically of course). But I will keep browsing.

By the way what engines did GS-tuning use? Schnitzer based their engines on the 1502 series if I'm right. And heidegger used their F2 engines, which were said to be the most powerful in the field??

1977 warsteiner car was GS tuning owned car Jorg Obermoser told me he rented the car in 78 fruit of loom sponsoered teh car for Hottinger to drive
this car is now reputed to be in a private collection

then we get this anomoly in the car being built from bmw works of cheever crashed in 77?? the parts where fitted to a new chassis and built up this info is according to Ian Beckett ( need to re read his earlier posting to see where he gets this info form) so far all i have is 1 foto of the car racing in 79? in a bright dayglo orange colour and this colour is evidenced on the 2 doors under 3 other coats of paint
sadly the shell was sand blasted many years ago and repainted
there appears tobe avoid in the car owners dates from this period until 1981 when kenneth Lim races the car in 1000 km silvertsone event

so any fotos and info is appreciated to create the chain of events but i think we will also need telephone numbers to speak with previous owners mechanics preperation garages

I think there where around 20 Gp 5 BMW cars racing around this time some will be crashed some will go off to Mountain races so later years the number of cars racing will drop off

keep the info coming guys as i want to start strip rebuild and paint the car ( 1st job!! ) may still plump for Gold warsteiner livery as it looks good but i know purists will scream its not correct but if the original warsteiner car is now blue fruit loom livery and in a collection it will be " ok" ? !!!!!!!!

Ian Beckett said earlierFischer's car was self built using the remains of one of the Junior Team cars,the one crashed by Eddie Cheever at the opening round of the '77 DRM at Zolder.I have been following the Group 5 320 since its first race and sadly this is one of the cars with little information available about it.I have virtually all the race reports of the DRM series from German magazines of the day,I also speak some German and I have come up with very little and have not been able to track down Herr Fischer

Im assuming the car raced with BMW M12 engine with Fischer
later the car raced with Schnitzer engines probably fitted in Scandanavia
t is my plan to fit M12 unless you find other info to contest !!

Driftwood,
it is always possible to see what engine the car is using, if exhaust exits on drivers side it is M12 if on the other side then it is a Schnitzer engine.
Alex e

Any stores/privates still selling bodyparts?
Or have production forms?

Jan E 28,
what exactly are you looking for ?
Alex

Mainly fenders and frontspoiler/plate.
I hope to find some parts for sale, so I dont have to produse myself.

Hmmm, noe edit?

GS Tuning`s style (Warsteiner) is of most interest. But any will do.

I will be able to help you with all of that style, including rear wing / bootlid. It will take some weeks though. Where are you located ?
Alex

See PM

Well driftwood, I have found some 1978 results for you, Fischer finished 14th in the championship. With a 4th place at 'Flugplatz Mainz-Finthen', two 6th places and at kassel-calden and the GP Deutschland support race. And a 7th place at the Avus ring in Berlin. I have found no photos sadly, but you should ask well-knwown photographer Ferdi Kräling, he has a website and is bound to have some photos. If you're having trouble with the german language, give me a shout I will help you.

thanks
ive googled and sent him an email in english

Driftwood make sure you used this email address: info@kraelingbildagentur.de

Because I think the one from the site which is on top at google.com doesn't work (barchetta.cc)

yes i found that address on his main website

So I quess this is the ex-Wiik Schnitzer Turbo?
http://www.coys.co.uk/auctions/lot.php?auction=48&id=38731&PHPSESSID=2ce9a1003ebb4700baaf503b19cc47a4

Interesting story Coys wrote about the rodenstock car, but as determined on this topic not really its genuine history; "..1977 by Schnitzer as the gold 'Warsteiner' car, driven by Jorg Obermoser..." how is that possible as Obermoser's car was the GS-tuning car? And then in 1979 becoming a Schnitzer car again.

nothing unusual here with auction house descriptions
basically any old **** will do so long as you can drag buyers to the auction room to buy!!
believe auction description at your peril!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

One of the golden rules for car auctions seems to be then; always research for yourself then!

Driftwood I have finally managed to get a photo of your Fischer car, I hope you don't have it yet.


http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/8973/lat7jwjivv9.th.jpg (http://img262.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lat7jwjivv9.jpg)

Again, image far too large; see FAQs:-

http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/faq.php?faq=vb_read_and_post#faq_faq_post_pic

thanks for foto
this is the only foto have of the car
would be great to find some more

Hello everyone,this is also the only picture I have ever had of the Fischer car,it comes from an article which focused on the companies who were responsible for painting the then current crop of cars running in the DRM and other series of the day.I found this site yesterday which may be of interest... www.ditech-produktion.de They are a company in Germany who specialise in slot car bodies but their boss is also a Group 5 fan.At the moment some of the cars featured are not up and running but the 320 and the 320 flach(lowline) are.Enjoy and Happy Christmas to you all.Ian.

As a small note ,the air dam on the car is still in Junior Team colours from 1977,the Fischer car being based on the wreck of Cheevers car from the '77 Zolder race.

I noticed the cheever junior colours as well. I am wondering in what extent parts of this car were used by Fischer? The whole frontal area on the Cheever car is totaly crashed.

I want that BT55 model from the Ditech model site, but it doesn't have any suspension, I would have to produce that myself...

Am I right in saying:

http://www.cokebottle-design.de/graf-vlad/motorsport/bilder-n-vogel/BMW-320-14.jpg
This was Chatfield's Cheever 'junior team' # E21-R1-12 car?

And this one, the HAT #E21-R1-7 car, but with the front spoiler from the junior team car? :

http://www.cokebottle-design.de/graf-vlad/motorsport/bilder-n-vogel/BMW-320-13.jpg

Kurt,
I am pretty sure both of these pioctures are of the HAT car. The bodywork / colour was changed quite often. I can check some pictures.

Regarding the Fischer car, I think he must have used the suspension mounts that are weded to the body from the damaged car. As it was the same as on factory cars but the bodyshell in general was very different & probably constructed from a new series bodyshell. Also a lot of the bolt on parts, pedal box, steering column, roll cage, etc....were all original motorsport parts. As was the suspension, brakes, etc....but I suppose you could buy these off the shelf at BMW, assuming you could afford it ! Probably the reason the parts were taken from the crashed car in the first place. As Cheevers car had not even completed one race the parts were probably in very good condition.
Regarding the `Warsteiner` conection with the other `Rodenstock` Schnitzer car now in France, I think the confusion arrises from the fact that after Schnitzer sold the car to Krebs he was sponsored by Warsteiner & the car was in similar gold livery to the Obermoser car.

alex

Kurt,
Regarding the `Warsteiner` conection with the other `Rodenstock` Schnitzer car now in France, I think the confusion arrises from the fact that after Schnitzer sold the car to Krebs he was sponsored by Warsteiner & the car was in similar gold livery to the Obermoser car.

alex

Yep, I think that's the case. Rodenstock Schnitzer has very unique front spoiler - wheel arches compination that seems to separate it from other 320's. Obermoser's car ain't even close to it -although if Schnitzer really rebuilt the car...

Ian thanks for the info
re teh front air dam i can only surmise the part was a "spare" that Fischer acquired with the parts he bought or possibly the whole wreck to reshell
If only we can locate Gustav Fischer- you cant beat hearing it from the horses mouth!!
I am in a dilema
If i rebuild car as per the foto it doesnt get people wetting their pants but if i repaint in warsteiner colours it will BUT i will have people saying but its no the real car thats in fruit of the loom colours in a private collection!!

so guys what would you do

no i am NOT going to paint it in BMW colours thats what sad lonely people do!!

Forgot to add, Krebs ran his `Warsteiner` 320 3-4 years after Obermoser ran his so there should not really be any confusion betwen them. & as has been said the bodywork really is quite different.
Alex

Driftwood, I think Gustav Fischer is/was part of the family who owns the Fischer Mess- und Regeltechnik GmbH comapny, as he once entered a 2002 with 'Fischer regeltechnik'.

Regarding the paint, originality is always best. But on the other hand as it borrowed so many bits from the Cheever car why not give the BMW colours a go? Most of those are in museums, aren't they? so it would be good to see one on the track again.

Thanks for info i have found website sent email with car photo
next week i will ask my german friend to call them to harras!!

not tto keen to run in pukka BMW colours for fear of being accused of being a total wnkr!!:>)

I've been going through some race programmes that I still have from the early days, I found that Gustav Fischer lives (used to live?) at Oberkochen.
When searching on the net it shows a Fischer Haulage company and a bit further down an email address. Maybe with some luck the right guy? He looks the right age anyhow.
www.fischer-spedition-oberkochen.de/seiten/kontakt/team.php?

thanks Eddy for info i have sent email with car foto to this company as well
i will get my friend to call next week and see if he is the man i seek

Thanks for info i have found website sent email with car photo
next week i will ask my german friend to call them to harras!!

not tto keen to run in pukka BMW colours for fear of being accused of being a total wnkr!!:>)
I think it would suit you drifty......:rofl:

i can see i will have to send round my russian friend to see you
Irma Gonachopabolokoffa

Hmmmm, I think this thread maybe due for some editing! ;)

On a more serious note, this subject is ripe for the Chassis Archive but it would be good to get some chassis numbers to go with some of the histories.

i can see i will have to send round my russian friend to see you
Irma Gonachopabolokoffa
I remember him in Interserie in the 80's............:laugh:

i would like to see some under body cockpit photos does anyone have any to post or mail me?

I have found some photos of various parts of a GS tuning car, I don't into what extent they're useful for anyone on this board, let me know.

On another note, what to the Wiik Schnitzer car? Which was the ex-Ertl/winkelhock car. Is this the car Ertl raced later in the season, after Schnitzer his old car to Franz Albrecht?

Kurt,
RE the Ertl car, I assume you mean the Sachs car from `78?
If so there were 2 of them. The Wiik car was not one of them though. Schniter used one car (Sachs,,,) until mid-season `78 and then built another for the second half of `78. The second car from `78 was then used for the first half of `79 (Winkelhock / Rodenstock..) Then they used another car for the second half of `79. This was the Wiik car, which at the end of `79 was sold to Krebs who raced the car with Warsteiner as sponsor.

Alex

where would these 3 cars be now?
also is the 2nd Schnitzer car ( 1978 part 2 used 1979 part1 ) the Rodenstock car that steve elliot had now sold to Guikas

OK, That's very interesting Alex; that would mean Franz Albert's 1978 Schnitzer car was Ertl's car in the first half of that season. Or that is what the november issue of rallye racing said.

The 2nd schnitzer car must've been the one that was for auction not long ago at coys, as discussed in this topic before.

3rd car is said to be with a private collector in Finland, isn't it?

3rd car is said to be with a private collector in Finland, isn't it?

No. All "Finnish" Gr 5 320s has left the country.

Yes I suppose Franz Alberts car could have been the first Sachs car, But I think this car is now in Switzerland.
The `third` Schnitzer car is here in England, Schnitzer sold the car to BMW Hong Kong after Macau 1980 (which it won with Stuck driving....) & the car spent many years in Asia racing until it came here about 10 years ago. It was never in Finland. I understand that when new cars wre built mid-season the old ones was retained as a spare until the end of the season.
Alex

Thanks for that explanation alex E, very interesting stuff!

Driftwood have you made any progress with your car? You should finish it before the DRM revival in August;)!

not started the car rebuild too busy with new workshop £ being spent there!

Hi, Does anyone know the history of BMW 320 Turbo : E21-R1-23 ?

Hello,can you give a little more information as a starting point? Thanks Ian.

where is the car now
what livery any history to add

Driftwood, I have been searching for a photo of your 320, I contacted an amateur photographer in Germany as I thought he must've had something in his archive (I got some real grp5 treasures from it). He searched thoroughly but couldn't find any. I may have another chance with another amateur who has an archive of 20000+ photos of the era.

I hope DWADWA posts something back, would be an interesting addition to what info there is at the moment.:)

Hopefully I will be posting some info' on the above car tomorrow.Kurt,any chance of seeing some of these photos or getting an address? Ian.

thanks for info
can u send me any fotos your man has of cars with interior shots under body/bonnet for reference
if he has any of naked ladies lying across the bonnet best post here!

if he has any of naked ladies lying across the bonnet best post here!

Haha, didn't know the DRM was that glamorous!

Chassis 23 was the HAT(Hohmann Auto Technik) car which they built over the winter of 1977/8.It was raced by Manfred Winkelhock in the 1978 DRM series backed by Wurth,race number 50.The car was the well known one which was white with red and black panels and stripes.For 1979 the team seemed to lack sponsorship and struggled with reliability problems eventually pulling out of the series.The car was driven at the opening round at Zolder by team boss Hohmann and then by Harald Grohs.The car had by now been updated with different arches and was white and black.The team was disbanded although I think this car was raced once at the opening race in 1980 by Helmut Topfl but was never seen again.Hohmann had by now emigrated to Calgary in Canada and took the car plus loads of spares with him.The car was sold to a small team in Calgary and was raced in club events in the region.It eventually found its way to a well known BMW expert in North America Ray Korman who restored it to look like the Citibank sponsored car which had raced in Imsa.He then sold it to a dealer in New Zealand who had it for sale for some time.The car has recently been acquired by Singapore BMW fan and team boss of the Petronas Z4 car David Wong.He is going to restore the car hopefully in Wurth colours and hopes to have it on display at this Septembers Grand Prix.Amazingly this car has now spent time in four continents,Europe,North America,Australasia and now Asia.I wonder how many other cars have that distinction and such an interesting background? Ian.

Ian, that's a great story! Good to hear it's back with somebody who intends to properly restore it.

Funny thing with this car is that it first actually ran with a Schnitzer turbo engine. Which kept breaking down. At the Nurburgring Eifelrennen in April team manager Dieter Basche had enough of this when the cylinder head played up again during qualifying. He made the decision to return to the workshop convert their car to their in-house developed turbocharged formula 2 engine. All that in just 17 hours, in the process mad Winkelhock broke the lap record for 2 litre cars.

I had considered that NZ car but owner wanted la la money for what was an unrestored car that didnt have obvious history with it
i saw it was worth half what he asked if wind was in the right direction and i was in a good mood
Mr W has the funds to do the car justice and I am available at short notice to test drive tha car at Sepang !

I agree about the price although I do not know what David actually paid.The guy in NZ certainly had it for sale for a long time and because it was very different looking and had no history attached to it in the advert,the origins of the car always puzzled me.We now know that it never had any connection to David Hobbs as was hinted at and what really threw me! To Driftwood,I also put a new thread on this forum yesterday called New photo site? If you go into it and put Avus 1978 into the search box you will find a couple of pictures of your car although sadly from some distance away.I have still not been able to find anything else on your car. To Kurt,any chance of the address of your amateur photographer? Ian.

i can see 1 poss 2 pics that might be my car
Yes Kurt any news on your contact for more fotos

I have already asked the photographer for your car drifty; he sadly hasn't found any. But he surely has some underbonnet pics of many 320s. I got some lovely paddock shots of the Zakspeed Capris. Here is his email address: micha2158an at aol.com . Be prepared to part with a few pounds, but that surely musn't be a problem when you have grp5 320 yourself;).

Those flickr photos are indeed interesting, there are a few rare shots of the back of the field. Lovely Hatje 2002 turbo, wonder happened to that white escort though:drool:

Micha is Michael Rabsch,I have used him for over a year now and his photos are wonderful,crisp and full of detail.I have probably bought 200 from him and have another order in at this moment! I am sure that anyone into this era of motorsport would find his photos a delight!Ian

Be prepared to part with a few pounds, but that surely musn't be a problem when you have grp5 320 yourself. its due to the fact that i have parted with a few pounds to get the Gp 5 i now cannot aford to part with a few pounds for fotos donatations gratefully received

Ian can i ponce some from you? see PM

Another question about the GS-tuning car; why did the GS-tuning team fit the car with enclosed rear fenders at the hottest race of the season, the norisring? Seems like madness to me.

I came across these the other day, maybe they would be of some help.

http://www.my2002tii.com/bmw_racing.htm

great photos on that site thanks for link ive mailed the guy see if he has any pics of my car

http://www.race-cars.com/carsold/bmw/b320x1/b320x1ss.htm

Which one was this?

The history in this advert is largely fictional! Sheckter never drove a 320,the car was not even homologated until 1977! This car was built by Faltz Alpina and its first owner was the Greek BMW dealer.Car never raced in this livery to my knowledge unless in very small club events. Extremely high price was asked for the car and perhaps because of this I do not think it was sold.Would love to know its whereabouts today.....anyone? Ian.

nope car never sold its stil in greece in red livery covered in dust i saw it in 01/2 he still says its jody driven car and wants lala ££ for it = owner is a cable ****** !

i am not sure if he drove car in UK races in 88 89 or if he drove the Chatfield car in thundersaloons ( what u say Alex?)

I do recall a Greek sounding name pedalling a 320 over here in some series or other? Wss that the Chatfield car then??

The car in question was built by Faltz at the end of the `77 season out of spare parts & as Ian cays was sold to the Greek BMW Importer. And I agree that Jody Scheckter never drove a 320, a CSL yes, an Escort yes but not a 320.
I think this car did come to England and raced in Thudersaloon or Modsaloons in the `80`s. But it is possible the Greek chap who drove it was acutally driving one of Brian Chatfields cars. As I think they were friends.
The ad suggests the car is in England ??
alex

car is in basement in greece covered in dust

While pottering around the net this morning I discovered that in Octane magazine the replica of Schnitzer's Wurth/Rodenstock ex-Winkelhock car is advertised for sale, for £184,500! Where do these people get their ideas of valuations from? The car was incorrectly described as 1976 when in fact it was 1979,you would think for that money the vendor would get it right!!!

Yes, you're right Ian! The information is even available for free in this forum! The vendor must either be blind or stupid (well probably not actually, as I doubt someone stupid has a grp5 320 standing around, that's wrong as well actually as driftwood told us:cool:)

Actually now we're talking about South-Africa(n), I remember seeing a report of a group 5 race there, BMW works cars were there (?), Zakspeed also shipped a converted grp 4/5 escort there in 1977.

Ian he is french so what would u expect!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hello Kurt,for the 1977 Kyalami 1000kms the following cars raced....Heyer/J.Sheckter (1st) in Zakspeed Escort,usual colours but sponsored by Findlaters;Hezemans/Hahne/Joest (2nd) also in Zakspeed Escort;Grohs/Hottinger (3rd);Winkelhock/Surer (5th);Stuck/Peterson (retired crash);The last three were in the 320's raced in the DRM as Junior Team cars and were in their usual colours but with backing from Standard Bank.Ludwig/Ertl ran one of Schnitzers 2002 turbos but retired.They were the only Group 5 cars in an otherwise local entry.Hope this helps Ian.

Thanks Ian! I knew there was a Scheckter involved in this race, I saw a photo of it not long ago in some kind of magazine, however I wasn't sure if he drove a Ford or BMW, now I am. The 'other' Scheckter was in a BMW, though not a 320. By the way the J. Scheckter/Heyer escort is most propably the car that was at the techno classica 2008, now in 'mampe' livery.

Another question about the GS-tuning car; why did the GS-tuning team fit the car with enclosed rear fenders at the hottest race of the season, the norisring? Seems like madness to me.
As luck will have it I'm just working on the 1977 season. GS (and others) changed their cars from universal form (could also be used for long-distance racing) to sprint form to lose a little weight - the cars with the works kit were far over the minuimum weight. Part of this was the removal of the hydrolic jacks, and removing every possible part from the rear to the front. The radiators therefore (oil as well as water) were moved to the front, so the rear fenders could be closed.

Long shot here, but by chance has anyone seen or does anyone know anybody who has parts from the big rear window that Busby (in the USA) or later, the Schnitzer / Rodenstock car used?
Thanks.

Having followed these cars since they originally raced I have no idea where the actual cars are.I suspect one of the Schnitzer cars is still with Oppitzhauser in Austria but have no proof.I think the Busby parts were sourced in the States as it had no connection to the Schnitzer cars.Interestingly another car had this type of rear screen fitted ,the GS Tuning Jagermeister car but only at the Essen Motor Show in 1980 and never raced. Ian.

Ian can you do me some BMW fotos on a CD for me??
Have you actually compiled a data base of every race and car used sold each year?
anyone have interior cockpit and engine bay period fotos at the track or from magazine articles
Im sure the german race mags must have done a few articles on Gp 5 cars

Having followed these cars since they originally raced I have no idea where the actual cars are.I suspect one of the Schnitzer cars is still with Oppitzhauser in Austria but have no proof.I think the Busby parts were sourced in the States as it had no connection to the Schnitzer cars.Interestingly another car had this type of rear screen fitted ,the GS Tuning Jagermeister car but only at the Essen Motor Show in 1980 and never raced. Ian.

I own and am finally restoring the Busby tubeframe car that was brought back from Australia to the US in the early 90s.
As I understand Jim and his team developed the large window, ran it here in the states and sold the moulds and parts to Schnitzer in 79 or so and they ran it in Europe.
Here is alink to some pictures of 320's with the aero windows.
http://munsty.smugmug.com/gallery/4941940_kCHA4#295581105_44kni

do you have a large window on the car now?
If so we have poly carbon window suppliers here who could make a mould and supply windows

i recall the car for sale last year tried to get info on it but the guys at race-car.com where not pro active it is interesting that you say the car is tube frame not road car shel as the advert did not specify that

do you have a large window on the car now?
If so we have poly carbon window suppliers here who could make a mould and supply windows

i recall the car for sale last year tried to get info on it but the guys at race-car.com where not pro active it is interesting that you say the car is tube frame not road car shel as the advert did not specify that


Actually the car is semi tube frame. Jim had a early car and when BMW released this car to him (it was the last 320 built) he knew the chassis flexed
so the first thing they did was clip the front, ran it then cut the floors out and tubed the car from fron to rear.
Jim says that this car is night and day from the 003 car (Hobbs lightweight 320) much stiffer and better handling.
And, no, I dont have anything but the window mounts, the special trunklid and window were gone when I got it.

Maybe this will get this thread going again,
I was talking to Jim Busby about the sale of his two cars to Frank Gardner when
he told me that when they packed the cars and spares into two shipping containers headed to Australia, 1 container = 2 cars and an assortment of spares 1 container =
all the other spares including something like 15 engines and everything else they had to run the cars. the container with the spares disappeared, where are all those parts? keeping in mind this was 30 or so years ago.
just thinking.

I assume teh container arrived in Oz
lest assume some engine sblew up car crashed parts get used up
then some motors get sold off and some parts get sold back to EEC car owners?
that could take care of 50% of the parts leaving the rest with the 2 cars in Oz?

any more news info on BMW Gr 5 cars chassis numbers photos
anything from the DRM festival in august?

@Drifty, nothing has been announced until now about DRM Revival at the Oldtimer GP. I always get the press information but until now nothing has come in.

I fear next year will be another year without Gp5 cars, last year they only allowed a few Porsche 935s, no other Gp5 cars. Why? I haven't got a clue, their are some running 2 litre division cars around which want to get out and play, but the organisation said no:rolleyes:

Mnsty,
I still have the original bootlid from one of these cars that used the long window, the same as in the picture of your car. No perspex though.
Alex

there must now be enough DRM/Gp 5 cars "running" to host a demo drive cum race
i see no reason why Gp2 and 4/5 cars cannot be in the same race until there are sufficient cars of each category to warrant a stand alone race in the future