Shellsport International Championship 1977

Thanks to Jeremy Jackson, the 1977 F5000/G8/F1 series results will be on OldRacingCars.com soon.

I have a few mystery cars that I hope you guys can help me with:

* Nick May - Graham Eden Racing Sana-BDG at R1 and R2
* Derek Cook - Chevron B27 (another one?!) at R1 and R2
* Rob Moffat - March 73B at R1 and R2
* Rob Moffat - #28 March 74B at R11 and R12
* Philip Guerola - #30 Wimhurst LP2-BDA at R4-R7 (entered as Wimhurst F2)
* John Bowtell - #76 March 74B at R9 and R12
* Howard Rose - #77/#42 March 753/76B at R10-R12 and R14
* John Ravenscroft - #43 Surtees TS15 at R11-R14
* Martin Birrane - #63 Chevron B29 at R11
* Terry Fisher - GRD 372-BDA at R12

Presumably Moffat's 73B and 74B are the same car but so we know which car? And is the Fisher car the ex-Russell one as has been suggested before? Were there really only two Sanas?

Any thoughts?

Allen

I always thought there were only two Sanas built. Cyd Williams confirmed this to me a few years back. I have the 'Autosport' colour centrespread somewhere showing both of them.

Allen

Do you mean the 1977 G8 series? [78 was F1/F2 only and few if any of the above ran in it]

Birrane B29 [29.75.17] ex Williams
There were only two Sanas RD9 originally FAt and RD11 originally F3 though later ran as Atlantic.
Cook B27 [27.74.08] he'd owned this car since April 1975. In 1974 he owned a different one [chassis 14] which went to Hugh Munro in 1975 [though Cook drove it at 1975 British GP meeting] At one point in 1975 Cook owned March 75B-U1; this Chevron; the ex SDC/Crawford 74B built from spares, wrecked on debut; and Chevron B29-75-29. By early 1976 this and an F1 Williams were all he had.
Ravenscroft 15-006 I believe, ex Wardle-Carvill
Moffat's car a 73B [all 74Bs in UK accounted for and rest in USA/Spain] Don't know for sure, but my money on it being the ex Lucas/Bailey/Rouse car. Moffatt was Australian. Does anyone have anything on him there?
Bowtell, not a real 74B either. Remember the car as dark blue, with a 75 nose and side rads, and very slow.
Rose's car had a 753 plate [I noted the number but can't find my old note book!]
Was white, red and black I think [I have somewhere quite a lot of paddock photos of these cars]
Fisher's car is probably one of the Saunders or Russell GRDs from 1976. [both were originally 372s]

chris

:o Yes, 1977 :bag:

That will teach me to try to 1977 Group 8 while also working on 1978 USAC. One's little brain gets confused.

Thanks for all this. So do you know if this Sana is the RD9 or the RD11? One of them (this one presumably) was destroyed in a fire wasn't it? And the other one became the Barton I think, but I don't know which way round they were.

Allen

I think I've answered my own question. Autocourse's results summary calls it a RD9 at Mallory and Snetterton.

Only one problem left: what on earth was the Musetti March that Divi drove once? It can't have been 742/U1 as that was already in New Zealand wasn't it?

Allen

Allen, didn't Val hire out his F2 March (s) a few times in 76/77, after he'd got the ex Walkinshaw 752 GA. Why was Divi in the car anyway, was the Surtees being readied for the GP or something, rings a vague bell with me.

The Moffat car was a bit scruffy, I recall seeing it/him at R1. He ran it with just one helper I think, out of a well-used MRE Transit van. Even by the, pretty low, standards of G8 in early 77, the outfit looked well out of place ! As both he and Rose were Ozzies, it wasn't the same car was it ? And the Bowtell car, what was it originally. I agree it wasn't up to G8 level, but in clubbie Libre, it went quite well.

Finally, a teaser, who the heck was 'Rikky Pearce' ? He was entered in early 76 G8 with a Surtees TS16, and some 77 races in the Heavens 762 I think, did he ever start though, and where did he come from/go to ?

I've finally had a chance to get back to this.

The Divi March was bothering me still.

According to Autosport, Divi was driving the F2 March that had proved uncompetitive in Thruxton qualifying the previous Saturday. (This is the Easter weekend of 1977.) Turning to the Thruxton F2 report, it calls Musetti's car a March 762 but says it was "updated". The F1R black book calls it 742-U1. I don't have Motoring News for 1977.

As I understand it - mainly by reading through Chris's research - Musetti had three Marches:
* A 73B in 1974, updated to 74B in 1975 and to 752 in 1976 with a Swindon BDX.
* 742/U1 in 1975 and 1976, also with a Swindon BDX
* 752/15 in 1976 and 1977 with a GAA V6.

Presumably the Thruxton/Divi car is 742/U1 but we have that as the car that goes to Howard Wood at the beginning of 1977. So does that mean Divi was in the 73B/74B/752? Or could it be that the 73B/74B remained an Atlantic car throughout and that was the one that went to New Zealand?

Or isn't it as simple as that? :rotate:

There's a photo of the Divi March in Autosport if that helps at all.

Allen

I found this here (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=758442#post758442) on the March 772-05 thread back in October 2003.
Dan

Nothing yet on the Westwood/Hull/Templeton/Lawler cars.
Too busy working! I suspect that those might have to wait till after Christmas.

However, the Musetti cars are a bit of a specialist subject:
Going into the '76 season Val has two cars
One is the ex Stan Matthews March 73B rebuilt as a '75B' or '74B'
the other is a 742 [and interestingly in the light of the current e mails it is described as being built around a 732 tub]. This is 742-U1 in the F1R record. He does use both cars in early 76, but one is only raced at the Thruxton F2 meeting and in Libre races, and perhaps the Oulton Good Friday G8 race to bed it in for Thruxton, and the Snetterton round R8; the other gets outings in G8 Then he gets the 752 with the GAA engine from Walkinshaw. At that point he has three cars hanging round. I guess he then sells 742-U1 quite late in the season because this seems to have been the car entered for Walkinshaw at R9 Brands Hatch at end August and it may even appear in the last G8 race of the season.

Motoring News identifies the Wood car in NZ as ex Musetti, and the plate U1 suggests it is the 742 as the Matthews 73B was a regular series construction [I'm fairly sure]. However, don't know what happened to the Matthews car. Val Musetti is still around and I'm trying to get in touch through contacts in the film business.

ChrisAlternatively, could it be Val's Atlantic car that he sells late-ish 1976 after acquiring the 752/GAA? If it was 742/U1 that he sold to New Zealand, then his 1977 F2 car must have been the old 73B. That doesnt sound right, does it? Why sell a F2 car to an Atlantic competitor and then convert your older Atlantic car to F2?

I never did trust chassis plates :)

Allen

Does Val's mum or sister still have the restauramt just off Picadilly ?

Val still works in the film business according to friends of mine in the industry.
Runs a stunt firm.

The 73B was more complicated - it's got a Stan Matthews 732 underneath it!
Also, there are more spare tubs involved. At the British GP support race of 1975
Musetti is described as having a new tub on the 73B. This is, I guess, 74B-U1,
but in a 1976 MN feature where he says he has two cars, one of them is
said to be basically a 732 tub. [Which also makes sense in terms of a prototype car
like U1]. I'm confused and I bet Val was/is too.

Chris

His telephone number is here (http://www.stuntnet.co.uk/contacts.html).

Allen

I never thought to look him up on IMDB (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0615651/). What a career! From 1962 to 2004 (and presumably still more to come), he's been in a mass of Bond films, and other films from Superman II and Nuns on the Run to Aliens3 and An American Werewolf in London. On TV, he's appeared as an actor in Dr Who, The Avengers, Callan, The Professionals, Minder, Bergerac ... in fact just about anything where a character needed to throw himself down a flight of stairs or fight an alien.

So I guess the chances of him remembering which March was which in 1976 are pretty slim, aren't they. Failing to qualify at Thruxton can hardly rate as the highlight of his career!

Allen

I'm in regular contact with Stan Matthews ( lives in Cape Town now ) but he admits he has forgotten an awful lot about his racing days, indeed he last raced in that '73 season, but I could ask if he remembers where the 73B went. Interestingly, he told me that by good fortune in having a supportive patron, he never ever spent a single penny of his own money on his racing career! How many drivers would give for that now!

Hi Andrew

We're also enormously keen to know whether that was a brand new 73B or whether he had an older car updated. Also, if he happens to have kept the chassis plate as a souvenir, or kept the March invoice in a scrap book ...

(I know, I know, but one has to ask!)

Allen

Hi Allen

I'll ask but chances are he won't have invoices etc as everything was bought for him.

Absolutely right, a ten-to-1 chance at best but it's amazing what people have but don't think to mention until you ask them.

Om one occasion, the daughter of a well-known mechanic from the 1960s, now sadly deceased, said "I don't suppose his old notebooks with all the details of every car he worked on would be any help would it?"

Allen

Allen/Andrew

Stan Matthews' 73B was certainly built on his 723 - originally delivered March 1972.

Hi Chris

Do we already know the chassis number of the 723?

How on earth should we be describing this car through 1973 and 1974? At first a "723/73B" or is it "73B [723/x]"? And then "723/73B/74B"?! Any sort of "system" starts to really struggle with cars like this.

Allen

Hi Chris

Do we already know the chassis number of the 723?

How on earth should we be describing this car through 1973 and 1974? At first a "723/73B" or is it "73B [723/x]"? And then "723/73B/74B"?! Any sort of "system" starts to really struggle with cars like this.

Allen

Allen, on the BMSA website we have adopted a 'simple'(?) strategy, if a car goes through a series of modifications then we (a) retain the original chassis type, then (b) add the latest modification level. Thus the Baker car would start as a 723, then become a 723/73B finally becoming a 723/74B. All the time the original chassis number would be associated with the car.

I have found it very difficult to get to the root of the changes and work out why there should be a change of 'type' - e.g. which of the following should require a type upgrade (a) a car running no chassis modifications but later bodywork or (b) a car that runs unaltered bodywork but has later rear suspension fitted?

It is a minefield! :banghead:

Sounds like a solid strategy. One wrinkle worth mentioning. If, let's say, a 73B hadn't been modified with 74B parts but just renamed, there is a case for putting the driver's name for it in quotes. For example, Lawrence had a BT29 that he always entered as a BT30. So I called that Brabham 'BT30' [BT29/23]. So Musetti's "74B" could even be March '74B' [723/x].

However, I think it does work best to just go with March 74B [723/x].

It must seem pedantic to be worrying about such details but recording tens of thousands of results for thousands of cars is only possible if you have a detailed system to apply. It has to work for F1 Eifellands, 2-litre Chevron sports cars, Indy Gerhardts, Val Musetti's Atlantics, Moleba FCs and even Leda LT27s that become McRae GM1s mid-career.

Allen

For example, Lawrence had a BT29 that he always entered as a BT30
Make that "occasionally" entered as a BT30

(sorry)

Sounds like a solid strategy. One wrinkle worth mentioning. If, let's say, a 73B hadn't been modified with 74B parts but just renamed, there is a case for putting the driver's name for it in quotes. For example, Lawrence had a BT29 that he always entered as a BT30. So I called that Brabham 'BT30' [BT29/23]. Allen

In the above case I would be tempted to ignore the BT30 references and plump for JUST the BT29/23. After all the car is a BT29 and perpetuating the myth that it is anything else just confuses everyone.

As I said previously 'it's a minefield'!

:error:

We know the chassis nos of only a very few of the March 723s. Matthews' is not among them.

As far as 'evolution' of cars is concerned, I agree with Allen. Type number should be whatever it gets entered as and then in the chassis number you put the original type number as well. So Musetti's 1975 Atlantic car might be March 74B [723-5]-BDA
having been 73B [723-5] the previous year...

chris

Allen, on the Val F2/At Marches, you ask why he would deal with the cars as he did, I suspect by that time, early 76, the cars were pretty much interchangeable weren't they? Anyone know why Divi hired it in the first place, and finally, 'Rikky Pearce' ???

We know the chassis nos of only a very few of the March 723s. Matthews' is not among them.

As far as 'evolution' of cars is concerned, I agree with Allen. Type number should be whatever it gets entered as and then in the chassis number you put the original type number as well. So Musetti's 1975 Atlantic car might be March 74B [723-5]-BDA
having been 73B [723-5] the previous year...

chris

Why do the modifications take presedence over the origins of the chassis?

I understand why you wish to keep the link to the chassis type as entered but after all the car is still a 723 and not a 73B or 74B. Surely the origin is more important than the upgrades which are tenuous to say the least!

:Shrug:

Why do the modifications take presedence over the origins of the chassis?

I understand why you wish to keep the link to the chassis type as entered but after all the car is still a 723 and not a 73B or 74B. Surely the origin is more important than the upgrades which are tenuous to say the least!

:Shrug:Good point. It depends on the car. A Chevron B23 that's been updated by someone who bought some second-hand B26 bits is still mostly B23 so I'd call it a B23/B26. A 723 that went back to the factory and was rebuilt with all the 73B bits and was thereafter called a 73B is about as much a 73B as any other 73B. You could call it a 723/73B but I can see good reasons to just call it a 73B. The origin is preserved by quoting its original chassis number, so 73B [723/5] as in the example Chris quotes.

I don't know how updated Matthews car was and I don't know whether it went back to the factory. Whether that one was is a 723/73B or a 73B is too fine a judgement for me. As it was always entered as a 73B, I'd go with that personally. If someone else described the same car as 723/73B, I wouldn't argue with them.

A good example is the Williams FW05/1 from 1976. That could be described as Williams FW05 [1] (the contemporary description), Hesketh 308C [1] (the F1R revisionist approach), Williams FW05 [Hesketh 308C/1] (which is what ORC says IIRC) or even Williams (Hesketh) FW05 [308C/1] (the Time and Two Seats approach). All have an arguement in their favour.

When Derek Cook later entered Williams FW05/3, which never was a Hesketh, as a Hesketh 308C despite it being unmodified from its Williams spec, every system probably falls flat on its face!

Allen

In the above case I would be tempted to ignore the BT30 references and plump for JUST the BT29/23. After all the car is a BT29 and perpetuating the myth that it is anything else just confuses everyone.

As I said previously 'it's a minefield'!

:error:I did exactly that for a while and got three emails telling me that I was wrong and that Lawrence had a BT30. Somebody even sent me a scan of the entry list to prove I was wrong.

All very well-meaning emails and I thanked each one but a reason why contemporary descriptions shouldn't be completely ignored. For example, F1R call the Lec CRP1 a Pilbeam. That may be strictly correct but I wouldn't take that approach. The Time and Two Seats approach of putting the actual constructor's name in brackets is a good one in this case.

The other reason for sticking with the conteporary description is that you run the risk of extrapolating. For example, I once "corrected" a Lola T330 back to Lola T300 at a number of races only to learn later that the T300 owner had indeed bought a T330 at some point during the season. I then had to go back to original sources to unpick my changes. If I'd "corrected" T330 to "T300/T330", my task would have been so much easier.

Allen

Here are a couple of shots of Stan Matthews' March 723 / 73B.
Stan e-mailed me these pics for a painting I am doing for him. He did however lay them flat on a table and shoot them at an angle. I've tried to straighten them up in photoshop from a 45 degree angle using the 'skew' and 'distort' tools, not too bad but might be a few things look out of place perspective wise. No idea who took them but both at Brands.
723 F3 1972

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/921/bh72f3march7231cz.jpg

73B F.Atlantic 1973. Stan switched to an Ensign from May '73 onwards.

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/3205/bh73fat73b6my.jpg

Those are remarkably different cars - radiators resited, front-facing roll hoop supports, different cockpit surround, different nose, plus different engine of course and 'box presumably. How much of it was actually the same? Just the tub? Even the tub?

Allen

Allen agreed re the 2 photos. To most people, certainly tech-numpties like me, they appear to be completely different cars, hardly anything looks the same. Presumably the lower pic shows the car in the guise Val M bought it?

I would guess the only bit of 723 used would be the tub. The tub looks outwardly similar in both shots.The cockpit surround of the 73B would be completely different - total new bodywork design and switch to front rad of course for F3 and Atlantic in '73. However the roll hoop is the confusing part. Was the tub for the 73B fitted with a brand new hoop? I've got a colour front on shot too - also straightened in photoshop.
Will post in a mo.

Again, no idea who took these and straightened in photoshop.
Not this first one though, still at an angle on the table as Stan shot it. It shows the 723 with bullnose, as some had in '72.

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/451/bh72f3723bull3pw.jpg

Stan in 73B leads Cyd Williams' BT40 at Mallory.

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/5161/mp73fatsmcyd0fd.jpg

Quite remarkably different!

The Wimhurst raced by Philip Guerola was built by Len Wimhurst using (I believe) the running gear from Guerola's Brabham BT30. Car was later raced in FAtlantic bt Richard Piper. Last I heard of it was in 1989 when Roger Fullager raced it at Lydden with a modified FF2000 Pinto and called it the RJF.

This has got me thinking. Stan started the '72 F3 season with the 723 shown using the 'bullnose' as most did. Later it changed to the nose shown in the first picture.
How sure are we Chris/Allen that Stan's 723 did become 73B? Reason I ask having looked at Autocourse '72 results and through Gerald's F3 site ( race reports I assume taken from Autosport/MN?), Stan reverted to his new F3 Ensign for the Silverstone club circuit race on Aug 28th. The day before (27th) in the March, he was involved in a 10 car shunt at the start at Thruxton. Therefore I assume he had 2 race ready F3 cars at end of August - both were in same green/yellow livery. A pretty good debut race in the Ensign, 2nd to Williamson in his heat, 8th in the final.
However for the next race at the Palace 9th Sept, Stan was back in the repaired March again and throughout September at Oulton and Thruxton. 1st of October at Mallory it was the Ensign again until the end of the season. Gerald's report of the 22nd Oct race at Brands states that Nick Crossley was making his F3 debut in the ex-Stan Matthews March 723. Did Nick buy it or did Stan Matthews Racing hire it out?

So was the 73B a pukka Atlantic car from new? - did Crossley use the 723 into '73 in F3? - I think I need to ask Stan if he remembers. Stan did indeed start the '73 Atlantic season with a 73B, but as I said, in May reverted to an Ensign, all cars in the green/yellow livery. He had his final race of his career in the Ensign later that year.

Thanks Tim. It was new for 1977, I think.

Allen

Hi Andrew

I think you could have something there. If you've found a suggestion that the Mathews 723 had been sold by 1973, we need to look at this afresh.

Allen

Actually guys, my mistake. I have the Atlantic cars about face. At the start of 1973, when Stan moved into Atlantics, he stuck with the Ensign marque, having used an Ensign in the latter half of '72 in F3.
He switched to a 73B for the second half of the '73 Atlantic season. If 73B was his 723 and not sold to Crossley, it sounds like it was converted as results were not happening with the Ensign Atlantic car, or a new 73B was purchased.
Interestingly though, his entry in the programme 1973 Sept 30th Atlantic race at Brands is listed as 'March Ford BDA Richardson 723'.
So to confuse things further, was his Atlantic Ensign built using his 1972 F3 Ensign also?

Thanks Tim. It was new for 1977, I think.

Allen

The Piper Wimhurst was out in Atlantic in 1980 and, I think, occasionally in 81 too. Seemed to disappear after that.

regarding Nick Crossley, just looked in the 1973 7th April Silverstone Int. Trophy prog, Crossley was in F3 with a 733 (P&M Racing Preparations) so looks like he was in the Matthews 723 for the one event at end of '72. Would he buy it just for the one race though or rented it? Or could he even have shunted it testing in the winter so bought a new 733 for the new season instead?

Couldn't it have been the same car Andrew?

Again...possible Dan. Perhaps we need to find out if '72 and '73 tubs were infact similar or close. Andy Gilberg's 'marchives' site any use?

Gents,

As I have a March 74B perhaps I can assist especially re forward roll bar supports, this is a triangular steel plate that folds over the inside of the tub about 9 '' long on the top which has a boss as part of it to take a 3/8'' u.n.f. cap head bolt , this whole assy is very well rivetted to the tub on the horizontal and sloping vertical sides of the tub.
The only safe way to install is to remove the bag tanks [ a pig of a job ] so that the necessary holes may be drilled to take the rivets .

Re-positioning the radiator requires nose sub. assembly frames , brackets etc , alloy radiator front to rear tubes etc.

Rear wing is via the famous March ''monster bracket '' which carries wing , wing adjuster, oil tank , battery, and catch tank.

In period all achievable , simply go down the road to March and purchase all components and convert , however to go from 723 to 73B as is indicated would entail the following, full new set of body panels , rear wing assembly , front to rear water lines and fittings , car has also lost it's 8.0'' front and 10.00'' rear wheels [ March ] and gained front 10.00'' Melmags and 14.00'' rear [ look like Compomotives] , re-do tub , remove old bolt in roll-over bar and install new to take support braces , also I think battery would have to be re=positioned and new cables, etc. etc.

A hell of a lot of work , maybe the car went back to March or dare I suggest Ecurie Santos and could have been traded on a built up old 732 tub in the best March tradition.

Don't have def. knowledge of F3 spec. brakes , but F/Atlantic had vented front discs and 4 pot calipers and solid rear discs and 2 pot calipers , F3's may have only had solid discs and 2 pots all round.

Bryan.

Further to the above the gearbox on the F3 would have been a MK 9 Hewland , which you could try and make live with a BDD but as many people found out not really a good answer , the FT200 was the box for F/Atlantic and if this was also changed you then need a different adaptor plate to go with it .

Bryan.

I think that a number of 73Bs were built by kitting existing cars.
Certainly Mallock's Chequered Flag car was made out of Beuttler's 712M-5 and
Rajah's first car out of 712M-7.
Robin Smythe fitted a BDA to his March 723, though I don't know what bodywork it ran.

Matthews' Ensign is described as a 'LNFB/73' in some reports, and I think it was a new car, but perhaps with a trade in on the F3. One reason for the switch to March was that at Croft 1.7.73 Matthews 'destroyed' [MN] the Ensign and put himself in hospital with crushed vertebrae. [Oh, I remember that feeling]
Entered at Oulton 7.7. in 'March 723' [programme] but obviously DNA - and that entry would have been made prior to writing off the Ensign. Reappears Silverstone 14.7 [a rapid recovery!] with what programme and press calls a 73B. MN says 'brand new'. However, ad in AS at end of season, by Matthews, says the car was
built up at March by his mechanics. I've got a couple of unattributed notes where the press says the car is his 723 kitted.

Chris

Interesting. Clearly quite a 'kit' was needed but can't see any reason to doubt what Matthews said in his advert.

We really need those 73B production records, don't we?

Allen

Grovelling apology time
For example, Lawrence had a BT29 that he always entered as a BT30.
I checked a few NZ programmes from when Lawrence was running the Brabham and you're right and I'm wrong - he always entered it as a BT30 :error:
(My excuse is that I knew it was a BT29 so presumably didn't upload the BT30 reference into my personal RAM)

No problem. Good of you to check.

Allen

With Chris's advice that Matthews guys built it up at March I believe we need to accept the fact that the car is a 723 updated to 73B specifications .
Lets say Matthews has 2 mechanics go down to March , with a price already agreed for the changeover to F/Atlantic which may include trade-in for old F3 bits surplus to requirements , maybe it would cost 1/2 the price of a new car , certainly a viable way to go .
In regard to the incorrect callouts in period of owner/drivers updating their cars , I believe the only way out is to call it what it actually is [ i.e. how it started life ] e.g. BT29 chassis zzz , and a note stating car also referred to as BT30 in period.

We have a BT6 here that became a BT18 and then a BT36 simply by changing body panels, by the time it was a BT36 !! it was running in Amaroo Park clubbies but with a MK4 Hewland and a 1300cc pushrod Ford , a far cry from a correct BT36, which it didn't even fully represent as it only has a BT28/9/30/35/36 nose cockpit section but no large side tanks.

Bryan.

I'll definitely ask Stan next time I speak to him. Off topic...again...I'm pretty sure he had just the one mechanic though in F3, think it was a guy called Roger Chalk? My father was Stan's mechanic when he raced in special saloons in 68/69. In '69 he simultaneously went to the JRRDS at Snett doing races in an FF Lotus 51 and learning how to keep it on the black stuff (there same time as Emmo).

I picked Simon Hadfield's brains on the 723/73B issue this evening and he advises that the tubs were quite different at the front so quite a bit of metalworking would be needed to take the 73B bits fit the 723 chassis. He thinks it more likely that they had a new 73B tub and added the running gear off the 723. The uprights would have been the same - just about the only thing that was.

From 1973 onwards, Simon advises that March tubs varied less and less from year to year, right through until 1980 when ground effects, as he put it, "buggered things up".

If that's right, and Simon does know this stuff very well, the differences between a 73B and a 74B would have been relatively minor.

(By the way, he occasionally 'lurks' here so mind what you say.)

Allen

We can say 'Thanks Simon, see you at the Stoneleigh historic show' Well done Allen.

I found another reference to a Musetti March: Autosport 6 Apr 1978 p58 mentions "Bill Wood (ex Val Musetti F2 March)". In the results (p59) it's called a March 752. Wood appears on other occasions in 1978 and the car is sometimes called a 762 but this is the only mention I've seen of it being ex-Musetti.

This makes me even more confident that the car that went to New Zealand was the 73B/74B and the car that stayed in England was the 742/752/762. So this Bill Wood car would be the one Divi had used briefly the previous season.

Has the NZ car been positively identified as 742/U1?

Allen

Allen, up in our hot topic thread , I asked how do I find the old B29 thread , that is where we were discussing it.
I did the eligibility inspection on March 742-U2 in Sydney at BMW dealer Rob. Shields premises in 1997 .

The paperwork submitted called out 742-U2 and I would have without fail verified that number on the ch.plate during the inspection.
The history given by the applicant is as follows , all in N.Z. Reg Cook , John Doey[ Dozy] ???, Ken Smith , John Mackinlay, thence to Rob Shiel in Sydney , no dates for the NZ stuff at all.
Chassis plate was fitted and the tub carried 732-69 under the roll over bar in the usual position.
Cams requested proof of early UK/European history as car was fitted with BMW M12/7 2 litre , but no evidence to support that it was a car originally run as F2 , the car was then sold to the U.K and one posting on the B29 thread is by the then current owner of both U1 and U2.
Further , another competitor in Australia wished to purchase car and sent to Duncan R. an enquiry re the car , also listing 742-U2 as the plate no. , Duncan replied that he could find no trace of the car in his records , however that 742-U1 was fully marked as a works development chassis.
Bryan.

The paperwork submitted called out 742-U2 and I would have without fail verified that number on the ch.plate during the inspection.
The history given by the applicant is as follows , all in N.Z. Reg Cook , John Doey[ Dozy] ???, Ken Smith , John Mackinlay, thence to Rob Shiel in Sydney , no dates for the NZ stuff at all.
Chassis plate was fitted and the tub carried 732-69 under the roll over bar in the usual position.
Cams requested proof of early UK/European history as car was fitted with BMW M12/7 2 litre , but no evidence to support that it was a car originally run as F2 , the car was then sold to the U.K and one posting on the B29 thread is by the then current owner of both U1 and U2.
Further , another competitor in Australia wished to purchase car and sent to Duncan R. an enquiry re the car , also listing 742-U2 as the plate no. , Duncan replied that he could find no trace of the car in his records , however that 742-U1 was fully marked as a works development chassis.
Bryan.
My notes, taken when the car first appeared in NZ for the 1977 international series, describe the car as a 75B and list the number as 742/1, it having apparently been converted to Atlantic spec in 1975. I can no longer recall whether I read that number off the chassis-plate or whether the owner told me. It is possible one or other of us left off an extraneous 'U' but I doubt I would have done that if I had read the number.
Reg Cook raced the car in the 1977/78 NZ season and then retained it unused until it was sold to John Gobbe (pronounced Gobey) in 1982
The good news is that Howard Wood, who first raced the car in NZ, is now a 10 Tenths member so may be able to enlighten us

David and Allen,

This is perplexing , my brother had dealings re his 772/77B which had also been through the same source and they had added a BMW badge to anything that stood still on the car , which led us astray, the same source later advised my brother they had put the badges on '' because it looked good''.
I needed to talk to this gent again re. another matter and he advised he had another March that they were '' restoring'' , however he was unable to advise details.
I have to say this out loud now , anything that has been in N.Z has to be treated with great caution. Apologies David.
The garbage we were ''fed '' re. my brothers 772/77B was to make it more saleable , linking it to Desire Wilson.
Something here is not correct , David would not have made a mistake , and I saw the plate .
Perhaps we can get in contact with the gentleman who posted an enquiry re both 742-U1 and 742-U2 as he advised he owned both.

The only other possibility is that the owner advised David , but gave him the wrong number .
Bryan.

Curiouser and curiouser.

Sorry if I'm going over old ground but how was this car linked with Musetti? I notice neither of you mention anything about its pre-1977 history. Is the only link to Musetti the number 742/1?

Allen

Allen,
Chris's post # 10 on the Chevron B29 thread.
Bryan.

Chris's post # 10 on the Chevron B29 thread. ... which is here (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=586859#post586859) and says:Howard Wood is described as racing a 75B in the '77 Tasman. Motoring News in UK said this was ex Val Musetti, meaning that underneath it all was either the ex Stan Matthews 73B [itself possibly built on a recycled 712M] or a 742 tub of indeterminate provenance.Well I'm confused (again). If that car was being called a 742, it clashes completely with Musetti's F2 going to Bill Wood. Unless he had papers for the F2 car and not for the Atlantic and a chassis plate swap helped him export the car. Much as I don't like that theory, I can't see any reason why Musetti would sell his F2 car to Howard Wood as an Atlantic and his Atlantic to Bill Wood as a F2.

Allen

Allen,
Post 205 in the Chevron B29 thread is from the chap that at that time owned both 742-U1 and 742-U2 , U2 being the ex N.Z./ Aust. car.
Bryan.

Allen and Bryan

I don't think that Musetti's cars had that stable an identity. In summer 75 he
had one car, built from the ex Oates 73B [itself ex Matthews 723]. He bought a
"new" tub for this, because the report in MN on the British GP says it was this that
was wrecked when he and Cook collided in practice at the British GP meeting.

By the start of 1976 in a MN feature on Musetti it remarks that he has two cars, but that they are effectively bitsas. One of these is the 742 that gets hired out with BDX engine. However, the second of these cars - which at that stage he's using in libre - can't yet be the 752 [chassis 15] with GAA engine, because Walkinshaw is still selling that at the end of April 76. Once he gets that running mid 76 one of the cars becomes redundant, but I guess it's the 723/3B/4B as he continues with the "742" in libre and rents it.
I think we can identify one car going in to Musetti, [the Matthews/Oates car] but there are also a load of spares and he's making them into bitsas. I've always been somewhat sceptical of that claim that Wood had an identifiable chassis, though not that it was 'ex Musetti'.
The March records say that 742-U1 went to David Franklin in December 1975, and this would then have a traceable UK hillclimb history for a while which would preclude it being a Musetti car. 742-1 went to Japan new and looks as though it was Kazuyoshi Hoshino's car into 1976.
In the UK Musetti wouldn't have needed a plate, and he didn't race abroad. But he might have needed a plate to export a car and simply made one up then - putting it on the Atlantic car [which by this time has a rebuilt "new" tub from mid 75 - the 732 tub Bryan observed, which in itself suggests a rebuild as the Oates 73B should have had a 723 tub [or older].
Bryan - I remember with the Saunders 75B which came into NZ at the same time you were shown NZ government registration docs, because all cars had to have them, which fully detailed the import. Were these available for "742-U1 and "U2"

Chris

Hi Chris

You mention that you've "always been somewhat sceptical of that claim that Wood had an identifiable chassis". Howard Wood or Bill Wood?

Also, you mention that that Musetti's Atlantic car should have had a 723 tub or older. I recall discussing this with Simon Hadfield after those pictures were posted of Matthews' very different 1972 and 1973 cars and he expressed doubts that anyone would attempt to built a 73B out of a 723 as the tubs were so different. He thought it much more likely that Matthews would have been provided with a new tub for that exercise so it is possible that a tub stamped 732 is from the original 73B. We have seen F2 tub numbers on Atlantics before haven't we?

Simon may spot this thread and put me straight on this.

Allen

Allen

Atlantic Marches [73B onwards] were normally built on the F3 tub.
A lot of 73Bs were kitted older cars [admittedly usually 712Ms] but Robert
Smythe seems to have converted his [though he might have run a t/c rather
than BD series], and we have an observation of 733-7 as Spitzley's "74B" with BDA.

If an F2 tub appears it indicates to me that something's gone wrong in the car/scenery relationship. Also, F2 tubs [742 at least] could go the other way. One of Depaillier's crunched tubs goes to Dyfed Roberts to rebuild the ex Jose Santo 733.

I meant Howard Wood. I think that Bill and Howard both get ex Musetti cars but we aren't going to be able to put clear identities on them, and we can have almost as much fun with the coincidence of Woods as we are with BT28-2; BT28-20 and BT29-20 seemingly having the same owners!

Chris

OK, in that case I agree with you that the 732 tub in Howard Wood's car must have something to do with the "new" tub in 1975.

I think I will make a cautious change to my G8 results to connect Divi's 1977 outing to Val's usual F2 car. We don't know what it was but at least we can be pretty confident that it was the same car. As it's usually called a '752' or a '762', it probably neither of those!

Allen

Allen/Chris,

Two answers, 1] no N.Z. vehicle registration papers were offered in regard to 742-U2 .

2] my own March 74B is on tub 732-26 .

Bryan.

March 742-U1
We purchased what we understood to be 742-U1 an ex March development car from Val Musetti in late 1976. Even then the provenance was a little hazy due to the permutations and combinations of Musetti's various cars.

If it helps identify the car, as purchased it was fitted with what appeared to be a 75B shovel nose and cockpit section grafted to a F3 type "louvred" engine cover all in a deep red .It had an Hewland FT200, the "old monster bracket" rear wing mount, Melmag wheels and the engine frames had been hacked about on the exhaust side presumably for a different engine/ exhaust.

At the time of purchase both John Anderson who owned the car and I were working for Alan de Cadenet.After Le Mans 1976 we built a number of Formula 1 film cars based on old MAE type F3 cars for an Al Pachino movie called "Bobby Deerfield" (which mercifully sank without trace).As part of that exercise we had been given a full set of the latest March F1 bodywork and I raced off a mould of this for a body which we subsequently fitted to 742-U1. We also bought a pile of stuff from Ron Dennis who was winding up his Eddie Cheever F2 operation and we fabricated everything else we needed to make the car as close to the latest specs as possible.

However we always described the car as a 742 which we sold at the end of the series to Reg Cook who ran the car in the local Gold Star series.The car ended up in pieces in Cook's workshop for a number of years.

Further to my last post I have been doing some thinking/ digging regarding the 5 Marchs in the 1977 NZ series.
1. Ken Smith: March 76B- 20.
2. Richard Melville: March 76B-14.
These two cars were brand new, ran as a team and had a new tub in the transporter which I think they used at some stage.
3. Howard Wood: March 742-U1 as discussed
4. Alan Crocker: described as March 74B. Alan ran this car in a few British Altantic races in 1975 and I think it was ex Ted Wentz. He sold the car to Ken Smith after the NZ series who would have traded it on.Incidentally Alan still competes in Euro Historic FF using a Ray.
5. Dave Saunders: described as March 75B. Was based on the old 722 type narrow tub and damaged before the Pukekohe NZGP round. Dave Saunders was a Nicholson McLaren Engines employee and as such well able to build/ source anything needed to update the car.

.....we always described the car as a 742
...though the 1977 Stuyvesant Series programmes list it as a 76B :rotate: