Pre War Saloon Cars

Survival of Pre War saloons, particularly from the Vintage era, on the more sporty chassis, is fairly low. Unfortunately, when it comes to restoring them, so many owners have the saloon bodies discarded or scrapped and choose to put replica open touring or sports bodies on. It is therefore all the more splendid to find one of the survivors in good health. Here is a Vauxhall of the 1920's with such body. I'm guessing this maybe a rare saloon bodied 30/98, but I don't actually know for sure. Can anyone tell me about it and who the body was by?

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/4791/vsccsilverstone230405054b8xt.th.jpg (http://img78.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vsccsilverstone230405054b8xt.jpg)

John
I am guessing, but I think this is a modern recreation by Nic Portway. I have seen the actual vehicle before and it has featured in VSCC Bulletins but I can't immediately lay my hands on the authority. Will look further - beats watching telly!
Tony Hodson

Tony, thanks; I'd love to learn more. If it is a recreation, it's highly commendable that it should be one of a saloon rather than the usual more sporting or touring body.

I think I can award myself 10/10 - it's not often I get these things right!

According to VSCC Bulletin Autumn 03 the car is a 30/98 (which you knew) No OE278 which was a rusty chassis 5 years before that, restored by Mr Portway with a body of his own design. As you say a commendable effort in these fake sports car times.

It looks as though the photo was taken in the barren wastes of Silverstone so you may get the chance to speak to the owner at the next April meeting. Seems an ideal mode of transport to me!

Tony Hodson

Thank you Tony, and a great effort by Mr Portway. The picture was indeed taken at Silverstone at the VSCC meeting there last April.

Another taken on the same day. This time built a bit later; early 30's (so just post vintage?) Lagonda but I don't know the model type. Anyone like to enlighten me, please?

http://img342.imageshack.us/img342/7886/vsccsilverstone230405046b6rb.th.jpg (http://img342.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vsccsilverstone230405046b6rb.jpg)

It looks like a two litre low chassis model to me - the same chassis type as used by Captain Hastings in the Poirot series on TV. If so, they are good on styling (long bonnet, low rakish lines etc) but sadly lacking in the power department!

Duncan :)

Edited to add - Nic Portway is married to Judy Portway who has been on the VSCC Committee, and is daughter of Kenneth Neve one of the "names" in the early days of the Club. Both Nic and Judy are excellent approachable people that have put a lot into the Club.

Yes, very elegant Duncan, but agree it would be underpowered with only 2-litre engine. What about this one? A couple of years later than the above model?

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/6967/vsccsilverstone230405040c9id.th.jpg (http://img519.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vsccsilverstone230405040c9id.jpg)

Later still, a circa 1937 Aston Martin 15/98 4 door saloon beautifully restored by Dr. T.C. Rollason. As if Aston's aren't rare enough, very few saloon examples survive, so another well done, this time to Dr Rollason!

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/4566/img665b8xr.th.jpg (http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img665b8xr.jpg)

Rather grainy picture of a 1939 MG SA taken at Blindley Heath in July 1988:-

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/2849/img674b5sj.th.jpg (http://img148.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img674b5sj.jpg)

How about this lovely 1935 MG KN Magnette saloon, photographed at the big MGCC International gathering at Silverstone, last weekend:-
http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/3817/silverstonemgcc24june2006147b6.th.jpg (http://img76.imageshack.us/my.php?image=silverstonemgcc24june2006147b6.jpg)

http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/751/silverstonemgcc24june2006146b6.th.jpg (http://img68.imageshack.us/my.php?image=silverstonemgcc24june2006146b6.jpg)

http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/618/silverstonemgcc24june2006148b0.th.jpg (http://img68.imageshack.us/my.php?image=silverstonemgcc24june2006148b0.jpg)

http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/2073/silverstonemgcc24june2006145b9.th.jpg (http://img76.imageshack.us/my.php?image=silverstonemgcc24june2006145b9.jpg)

For obvious reasons, I have removed Peter Prosser's telephone no. from the history board, but if anyone has any of the information requested, please post it here and I will ensure that it is passed on.

Here is one from the Winton historic races last month, a Triumph. Perhaps someone will be able to identify it, I don’t know what model it was, and there was no indication of what year it was manufactured as it is on a club permit not normal registration.

http://thumbs.fotopic.net/954030000829.jpg
Link to larger photo (http://gallery128870.fotopic.net/p30829954.html)

ps I am still working on a thread for the cars at Winton, I have put the photos up, and written the posts but the links I had used were incorrect so I will have to re-do them when I get time. In the meantime the gallery can be accessed via the link above.

As an excuse for resurrecting this thread, I've noted that Stanley Mann Racing has an original saloon bodied 1929 Bentley Speed Six for sale for a very cool £375K!

Another from the April 2006, VSCC meeting at Silverstone. This is a Riley; I believe a 9 Monaco from what; around 1930?:-

http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/3103/vsccsilverstone23040504hs0.th.jpg (http://img120.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vsccsilverstone23040504hs0.jpg)

Just looked through some old photos John, however no prewar sporting saloons to be found, only some non-sporting ones eg Rolls Royce, Model T Ford. That is unless you consider hotrods to be sporting saloons? ;)

As an excuse for resurrecting this thread, I've noted that Stanley Mann Racing has an original saloon bodied 1929 Bentley Speed Six for sale for a very cool £375K!
Until it gets removed from the Stanley Mann site, here is a photo to add to this thread

http://www.stanleymann.co.uk/sales/uv1928_s.jpg

Ah, but did you get his permission? I might have to remove it, otherwise!

Hmm, reply might incriminate methinks... sorry about that! Next time I will post the link.

A couple of photos I got Sunday were sedans from the thirties (not quite Vintage era but still prone to losing sedan bodies), a Riley Kestrel, Bentley and Vauxhall. No info on the first two cars so I am guessing, but I think the Riley might be a 1937 model, and the Bentley a 3 ½ or 4 ¼ litre Derby built car (the radiator looks different from the earlier cars). The Vauxhall was a 1932 T80B Silent Eighty. There were a few Vintage cars, but they were mostly tourers!

http://images.fotopic.net/ylkry8.jpg
http://images.fotopic.net/ylkryc.jpg
http://images.fotopic.net/ylkryf.jpg
http://images.fotopic.net/ylkry7.jpg

That Bentley is interesting. Certainly a later style rad. but the body looks pre Derby to me.

What a monstrosity the Big Bentley saloon was. Neither wonder it put WO into liquidation. I have driven one. You need to be superman to turn the steering wheel. Its very cumbersome to drive, ok it will touch ninety on a motorway at about 4mpg, It creaks like an old boat, you cant park it unless you have a warehouse and
unless you spend close to 1m$ you are not likely to get near a Concourse De Elegance. Even then the french and dare I say Americans were at the peak of their coachbuilding so it looks very dated beside the more exotic machinery of the day. It may be nostalgic (British) tractor engineering but it serves no purpose. Its an expensive folly that will give some new owner (probably under 5' ) a feeling of masculinity.
When WO went to earn his crust at RR, he had an involvement of sorts with the Derbys. What wonderful cars they are and some of the bodywork produced is exquisite. A light lovely sports saloon, easy to drive and park, lively performance with near 100mph on tap and still you got over 20mpg. All of the successful British racing drivers , speed record holders had one as their everyday transport . Even Bira had a few. Eddie Hall campaigned them sucessfully. A far cry from the 8 litre truck that in my book at over £300k should be nearer £75k. A few brave men have tried to knock them into specials and using the 3 litre chassis a few managed to construct some rapid specials but they are only specials that other than the BDC sprints cannot get an entry now at any events.
Love stirring it up.

http://www.webentory.com/billboards/1675/5671.jpg

A Derby Bentley

What a monstrosity the Big Bentley saloon was. Neither wonder it put WO into liquidation. I have driven one. You need to be superman to turn the steering wheel. Its very cumbersome to drive, ok it will touch ninety on a motorway at about 4mpg, It creaks like an old boat, you cant park it unless you have a warehouse and
unless you spend close to 1m$ you are not likely to get near a Concourse De Elegance. Even then the french and dare I say Americans were at the peak of their coachbuilding so it looks very dated beside the more exotic machinery of the day. It may be nostalgic (British) tractor engineering but it serves no purpose. Its an expensive folly that will give some new owner (probably under 5' ) a feeling of masculinity.
When WO went to earn his crust at RR, he had an involvement of sorts with the Derbys. What wonderful cars they are and some of the bodywork produced is exquisite. A light lovely sports saloon, easy to drive and park, lively performance with near 100mph on tap and still you got over 20mpg. All of the successful British racing drivers , speed record holders had one as their everyday transport . Even Bira had a few. Eddie Hall campaigned them sucessfully. A far cry from the 8 litre truck that in my book at over £300k should be nearer £75k. A few brave men have tried to knock them into specials and using the 3 litre chassis a few managed to construct some rapid specials but they are only specials that other than the BDC sprints cannot get an entry now at any events.
Love stirring it up.

wonderfull words on the Derby Bentley for the 10 10th forum. I still didn't manage to take mine to the track as transport ,to add a bit of Raymond Mays feel (he had 3 Derby Bentleys!!!) ? As I would say its the BMW M5 of the 30ties but then with style.

Get it out on the track.

There are a few out and about and they do very well. My Derby isnt a saloon its a drophead and it did 3 Montes in the nineties , the trans pennine and numerous club events. I took it to Klausen this year as a spectator and it just sailed past all the other prewar stuff and a lot of postwar chicanes.

Roll on the summer.

Hi roadmap, what model do you think the car above is? I had a short ride in a Derby Bentley a few years back, it was just through town so I didn't get a real feel for the car. Comments that the 6cyl Bentley saloons were outdated are not surprising given they were quite similar to the original 3L car from several years earlier, effectively stood still while others advanced.

I cannot tell. Its a WO , it might be original and you have to ignore the mascot and cannot see a rad badge, as they mean nothing if its a rebuilt car anyway. It could be any of them. It looks quite a high line and doesnt look to long so could be a speed 6 but there again if its a special, who knows.

The 3, 4.5, 6 and 8 litre cars did suffer from unimaginative bodywork design in the latter years with exceptions but the 8 litre folly and the final pedestrian 4 litre on the huge 8 litre chassis finally killed them off.

The UK car manufacturers forgot the one cardinal rule in the business that the only constant factor in the car business is that it changes and if you dont change then you dont survive.

Thats why today we have foreign owned cars being manufactured in the UK. Ironically a lot designed by British designers. A little known fact is though that we export more cars today then we ever did.

In the Vintage Sports Car Club display at the Philip Island historic races was this Alvis sedan, I think it was around a 1938 model. It was in very much unrestored condition...
http://images.fotopic.net/ymwjt8.jpg

http://images.fotopic.net/ylkryf.jpg




I think you'll find it's a Four litre Bentley. The unsuccessful last throw of the dice for WO's Cricklewood business which had a pushrod six cylinder engine, for reasons of cost, not ohc. No one wanted to buy them but allegedly they were far better to drive than their reputation suggests .... I suspect they probably drove something like Mr Roadmap's Derby - or like my own 3 1/2 litre drophead which while smooth and easy and quite rewarding to drive doesn't want to go anywhere near 100mph.

Interestingly the car next to it had a similar problem (if I'm right that is). Pre 1937 sporting MG's were all OHC engines then, when the T Type was introduced, they went to pushrod engines. It was approx 20 years before they brought out the twin cam 1600 MGA thus returning briefly, to their mechanical roots.

Thanks Edgar.

I actually had a ride in a prewar Bentley sedan a few years back at the Steam Rally in Echuca (Victoria), it was just getting a lift back into town as I had travelled to the rally in a friends Bristol 401. A bit out of my automotive every day to say the least!

Edgar you were spot on. I saw the car again on the weekend (at the owners' property, a very nice shed just down the hill from his house, which has his 3 pre-1904 cars, the Bentley, Vauxhall 30/98, Bugatti type 35, Mercedes Benz 540K and a few others)

It is a Bentley 4 litre on the 8 litre chassis, with body #1000 by Freestone & Webb

Of course! :cool:

That's not a bad collection your man has got there! Though pontificating and rambling, I think I'd want to swop the 4-litre Bentley [no real Bentley steam train torque] and the Vauxhall 30/98 [no front brakes even if it's a later car with drums and linings at the front] for a 3-litre twin cam Sunbeam which was one of the great unsung Vintage cars. Or maybe a Voisin 'cos they're just so funky! [Yup, that's the right word for a 1920s Art Deco car!].

Then I've always wanted to own a Bugatti [I nearly bought a horrid home-bodied Brescia in the mid 90s] but I'd settle for a type 37 [4cyl] plus cash to run it rather than a type 35 [8cyl] 'cos surely there's only half as much to go wrong? There are certainly only half the plugs to change every time you want to take the car to the shops!

As for the 540K, I grew up with a 38/250 SSK in the family and a 380K and I couldn't possibly make use of any Grosser Merc because I haven't got an HGV1 licence!

Not half bad at all I'd say! I agree it isn't an example of the best Bentley but they don't grow on trees after all, and it is a most practical car too, being one of only two closed cars - the other a Riley Kestrel I neglected to mention earlier. He said he had an offer on the Riley, or rather an expression of interest I suppose as I got the impression he could have named his price, but he told the fellow "you've picked the wrong car - that is the only one my wife can drive", having the pre-selector gearbox of course. I agree wholeheartedly on the choice of the Sunbeam, I have seen a few and they are great, a case of less is more.

Here is a car from last weekend at the Winton historic races - a Lancia Lambda. The car is known as "the suitcase" because of it is black leather and very square - I believe it even has had a novelty handle mounted on the roof to complete the joke at one time! I passed this car on the highway on the way home, I would estimate its cruising speed at approx 50mph.
http://images.fotopic.net/yn0fp9.jpg

The characteristic Lambda trunk shape can still be seen.
http://images.fotopic.net/yn0foh.jpg