Chassis History Archive Project

The problem with threads as long as this and the Chevron B29 one is I , and possibly others forget exactly where we are , a case in point being a BT29 I have been advised of landing in N.Z. recently , BT29-41 to be prescise , without trolling all the way back I am unable to remember if we know about this car. Bryan.

Bryan, if there is any way you can suggest we can split these long threads to make it easier for you guys to refer to, let us know. I'm certainly happy to set up a specific thread for example on an individual chassis number if there are enough posts on it. You just name it and I'll try to split the relevant posts out.

Hi John

Thanks for the offer. The difficulty will be where some individual posts make reference to two subjects. Could they be duplicated if necessary?

For example, we might be able to work out a separate thread on BT30s need to contain posts 1-13 plus 15-18 etc but a separate BT35 thread would need posts 11-15 plus 17-18 etc. If that sort of split would be possible, I'd volunteer to spend some time going through the posts trying to figure it out.

The alternative would to create a new BT30 thread and a new BT35 thread (etc) with fresh posts that sum up where we got to with this thread. The latter is probably no more work but would give us a better foundation for taking the research forward.

Allen

Kind of scary when you actually look through this thread. Some of the digressions would need their own threads too: e.g. the Moser BT30/BT36 story.

There's some really valuable stuff in here if we can only get at it.

Allen

Right, you give me a list of the threads you require, and if you can, also identify the posts (long job, I know!), then I'll split them out. Where a post is relevant to more than one thread, it may be that we will simply have to copy that post across from one thread to the other.

John

Thanks for offering to do this. Greatly appreciated.

Is there a way to get the whole thread onto a single page? I don't seem to be able to get more that 40 posts at a time. I'd be skipping up and down so much this would be quite a pain.

Bryan, Andrew, David, Chris, Ted et al. Are you happy for this thread to be chopped up like this?

Allen

Bryan, Andrew, David, Chris, Ted et al. Are you happy for this thread to be chopped up like this?

More than happy
Especially if some postings can appear in more than one thread

More than happy
Especially if some postings can appear in more than one threadI just worked through the first 100 posts to see how hard this would be and there are a lot of posts that would need to be split or duplicated. Originally I was thinking about just quoting a post - e.g. allocating a post in a new BT35 thread but quoting it in a new BT30 thread as well - but as I went through there seemed more where a split would make more sense.

So far, the threads would be: BT30s (34 posts), BT35s (39 posts), BT36s (44 posts), BT28s (7 posts) and "the Render Brabhams" (8 posts). The fact that those add up to 132 instead of 100 shows the amount of duplication.

I'll keep going to see if it starts to make more sense.

Allen

It would make my life much easier if we dealt with volume producers
like Brabham, March Lola and Chevron in specific model threads

Chris

It would make my life much easier if we dealt with volume producers
like Brabham, March Lola and Chevron in specific model threads

Chris

Agreed! :coffee:

Is there a way to get the whole thread onto a single page? I don't seem to be able to get more that 40 posts at a time. I'd be skipping up and down so much this would be quite a pain. Allen

Allen, no I don't think there is a way of getting more posts on a single page. I can when splitting the threads, but I still have to scroll down, and I only see the first line of each post which doesn't always help.

I've split this off so that guests and other posters don't get fed up with us discussing the process rather than see info about the chassis. I'm also sticking this up until we have agreed and completed the task. I think there are too many of you interested in this to take this discussion off line by PMs.

So far, the threads would be: BT30s (34 posts), BT35s (39 posts), BT36s (44 posts), BT28s (7 posts) and "the Render Brabhams" (8 posts). The fact that those add up to 132 instead of 100 shows the amount of duplication. Allen

Plenty of work here but I don't mind splitting these off. My main concern is the number of duplicates that you refer to, identifying them easily and then trying to slot them in chronologically. However, I do think this is all worthwhile. I just think that we need to take a bit of care and it might take a while to get all the threads up the way you want.

Hi John

You're not kidding about it being a lot of work. Tedious, unexciting work too!

I've got as far as post 445 so I'm well on my way. The problem has turned out to be those posts that list, for example, every Brabham in sprints or in hillclimbs as these need to appear in several of the new threads. One of those was my fault!

I think we'll have threads for: BT21/21B/21C/21X, BT23/23B/23C, BT28, BT29/29X, BT30/30X, BT35/35X, BT36, BT38/38C and BT40; and then separate threads for the David Render Brabhams and the Silvio Moser Brabham and finally one for "Unidentified Brabhams".

I'll type up all my scribbles tomorrow and pass them to you. The we can debate how best to make the changes.

I am very grateful for your willingness to do this John. I'm sure you know how many hours work you're letting yourself in for.

Allen

:faint: :runaway:

Seriously though, I want to get it right, so we'll get one up and running; probably the BT30 thread because that is where Bryan started it (actually it's all Bryan's fault because he went berserk and kept adding new model types! :laugh:), check that we are all happy with it, and then move on to the next one. One step at a time eh?

John,

Many thanks for agreeing to do this and whatever you chaps decide will be O.K. by me, I would offer to assist but I haven't even figured out how to post smilies yet.

Regards Bryan.

And don't forget the BT9 [I think] that became the Alan Minshaw Blackjack FF1600. I'd still like to locate that one

To be fair Bryan wanted to put the 23s into a new tread and I jumped the gun, on reflection of course a thread for each as Allen is doing is the ultimate. With luck I will have some small updates on 30s.

O.K. it's all my fault , I can take it , I have broad shoulders .

The biggest nightmare will be the beloved Chevron B29 thread , that one goes everywhere and then some.

Bryan.

Well, Bryan, I'm happy to help turn all these threads into properly structured archive material in order that 10-Tenths becomes a leading source for historians and researchers!

I also think that I have worked out a way of avoiding the cutting and pasting of individual posts which have to go into more than one thread, by copying the whole thread to a 'Holding' area for me to work on without moving the original thread.

I'm just sending the breakdown to John. You may be able to hear the shriek all the way from Spaulding...

Allen

Or Spalding, even! I'll start tomorrow; I propose to title each one in a standard way - 'Brabham BT?? - Chassis History', if that's OK?

John, perfect.

Finally, after about 8 hours work, I've posted the first BT (30) thread. This proved far more difficult than at first envisaged as the split thread mode does not show the post numbers, so I had to print the pages off (64 of them!) and number them up manually and then check them against the thread.

Allen, I have 'pruned' the posts a bit more than you suggested, in an attempt to:-

1) Keep the thread as close to purely BT30 specific as possible, without however, hopefully damaging the continuity.
2) Eradicate references to posts and comments that are no longer on this thread

Note also that:-

1) I added posts 140-144, 161, 163-169, from the original thread, which didn't appear on your list, Allen
2) That if any of you want me to change, add or remove any of the posts, you must give me the numbers from the NEW thread, as obviously, with the exception of posts 1-13, they will now differ from the originator thread.
2) That if I have 'pruned' too much and you are unhappy that the relationship to the BT35/36s is lost, I can do this again (The really hard work has already been done!), but we can always post links if absolutely necessary.
3) None of your posts have been lost - the bits I have edited out will reappear in the appropriate other BT threads.
4) I have received emails from a few of you and will take on board your comments as I prepare the appropriate threads. If I haven't done as you asked or requested, it will be because I have a query which I will get back to you on.

If any of you can let me know what you think, before I carry on with the others, I'd appreciate it. You can post it here, unless you want to be too rude ( ;) ). If you are happy with the outcome, I'll get on with the BT35 thread tomorrow, and that will be the two most difficult (sizewise, anyway!) threads out the way.

I'm going for a lie down, now! :)

You're a hero John. The new thread is much more manageable at only two-and-a-half pages and should enable the experts to sum up with a "where are we now" post. Bryan or Andrew are strongest on this subject, I'd guess.

1) I added posts 140-144, 161, 163-169, from the original thread, which didn't appear on your list, AllenThe reason for that is that I'd suggested putting the entire conversation about the two Moser cars (posts 140-170) into a separate thread because all 31 posts were relevant to his BT30 and were also relevant to his BT36. If people think it's better split between the BT30 and BT36 threads, I won't argue.

I estimate the BT35 thread at 123 posts and the BT36 thread at 133 posts plus whatever it gets out of the planned Moser thread. After that it's plain sailing :rotate:

Thanks

Allen

Rather than having this debate on the Chevron B29 thread itself, I thought it had suffered enough.

I had a quick browse through the thread and although it's a little shorter than the Brabham thread, it ranges over many, many subjects. Should we try to break it up like the Brabham thread or do we take a more pragmatic approach and just try to prune some of the more distinct subjects out of it, for example the Modus or GRD content?

Do we see how much value we get from the Brabham thread breakdown first?

Allen

The reason for that is that I'd suggested putting the entire conversation about the two Moser cars (posts 140-170) into a separate thread because all 31 posts were relevant to his BT30 and were also relevant to his BT36. If people think it's better split between the BT30 and BT36 threads, I won't argue.

I estimate the BT35 thread at 123 posts and the BT36 thread at 133 posts plus whatever it gets out of the planned Moser thread. After that it's plain sailing :rotate: Allen

Sorry, Allen, as I was scrolling down the list, I kept seeing posts about a BT30 which I thought you had overlooked. Comes of concentrating on one chassis type, I guess.

Yes, I'd overlooked the number of BT36 posts. Never mind, we'll get there! Might take a few days, to get it all sorted though!

Personally I think that the B29 bits and bobs should be in one thread. Then someone needs to look at what is left and decide if it needs further splitting. :innocent:

I make these comments in the full and certain knowledge that as I am not a moderator it will not be me! I have great admiration for John for taking on the Brabham Thread. Give the bloke a week or three to recover before driving him into the dark recesses of the Chevron B29 thread! :beer:

There be dragons! :ill:

Ah, appreciated, at last! Thanks, Steve. I'm happy to break any of these threads down if it makes them more suitable and accessible as archived research material, but as you say it needs to be done properly over a reasonable period of time for me to retain my sanity .... oh, wait, that departed years ago! :rotate:

John,

Massive job , thank you very much , I will start making notes and do an update on the BT30's when the thread is unlocked.

Thanks again , also Allen.

Bryan.

I'll unlock it shortly if everyone is happy with it as it is, and I've added one post that has been requested.

John/Allen/ Steve, et al .

The B29 thread would be nightmare , the first person that stuffed it up was ME [ sorry about that ] by posting March stuff , then Chris T. got carried away and was joined by David Mc . in very short order.
It only lasted about 4 posts before it degenerated with Modus/ March other Chevron types etc , if definate specific items can be found a home , maybe hive them off , but at this point we really have March stuff scattered far and wide and nowhere to place them . The Modus stuff would be O.K. as we have a long lost thread for them.

However to give John time to return to saner levels , lets see how the Brabham split up goes in the next few weeks.

Regards Bryan.

Right, the requested post has now been added, and the BT30 thread is open for business. I'll keep it 'stuck' up until someone posts on there because if I 'unstick it now, it will disappear off the page!

Personally I'd like to make the B29 thread into something specifically about Chevrons. Taking the Modii to their own home should be easy enough; other
material could go to the Formula Atlantic Database thread; and then maybe
we'd need a general March Atlantics thread. [could we have Marches by specific
model number when you've got people calling their 712M a 762 because its got a
shovel nose?]

Chris

It really needs someone to go through and identify which posts could/should move.

Allen

The BT35 thread is now prepared as per the same criteria/parameters as the BT30 thread. A couple of recent posts have been added, as requested. If you guys are happy with it, I'll unlock it tomorrow.

Looks good to me.

Thanks John.

Allen

Allen,

I will volunteer to go through B29 thread and advise John Turner what Modus specific posts could be shifted , we can remove them and then see what we are left with , will need a few days , am scheduled to be painting Kitchen and dining rooms this weekend.

Bryan.

Right, Allen, your vote of confidence and no adverse responses, means, I've unlocked the BT35 thread. On to the next one.

BT36 thread now ready. I'll unlock it tomorrow, if all O.K!

I can see you're all out there, so I'll take this opportunity to say that I think we should do this with all the single seater threads where chassis numbers and their history has been discussed.

You're a brave man! Bryan is already hunting down the Modus stuff in the Chevron B29 thread and there may be other bits that can be surgically removed into a thread of their own. Let's see what he comes up with.

Allen

As per my brief I went trolling through this thread , and as Steve Wilkinson suggested there certainly are dragons present.

Re Modus , john Turner , if you see this can you advise , Chris started the thread titled ''Racing a la Mode '' is it poss , with Chris's o.k. to re-title ??? to Modus and Argo racing cars history , or similar , as therein is a fair bit of stuff on Argo's and to my mind anyway they are Modus MK 2 ????
This thread is now down on page 9. Anybody have a problem with that suggestion.??

Further , Good old Dan Rear started '' another Chevron thread '', I don't dare look to see what is in there yet , but maybe that needs to be amalgamated with the B29 thread to make it even longer , ha ha ha.

Bryan.

I think the "Another Chevron one" thread might benefit from renaming too. Isn't it the thread covering the B48 and after?

Allen

I have no problem renaming the Modus thread if Chris agrees, and, the new title is a more accurate description.

No problem, other than time and patience! I'm now unlocking the BT36 thread. Incidentally did you realise that Chris had started a BT40 thread here:-

http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63115

I suggest you may want me to merge that with the BT40 posts that you have noted for the new thread.

I think the "Another Chevron one" thread might benefit from renaming too. Isn't it the thread covering the B48 and after?

AllenJust had a look. It's here (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45474). It covers the B42s as well. There is a little Ralt, a little Lola and a little B25 but nothing that can't be trimmed out into another thread if we're feeling really, really tidy one day.

Allen

We should keep the conversation about breaking up the B29 thread here or we're just making the B29 thread even worse.

I'd also like to get the Tui thread (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68672) renamed to match the others. And the Winkelmann-Palliser thread (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1543209#post1543209).

Allen

Well spotted John. There is also a Brabham BT21 thread (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62829) to which the same question must be applied.

Allen

All the BT40 posts from the big Brabham thread pre-date the BT40 thread so I think we'd be safe to merge it.

Chris - what do you reckon?

Allen

Better still Allen, can we perhaps discuss all the thread breakdowns on the one thread at the top of this page, please? I'll rename it accordingly. In fact, I'm inclined to merge the last few posts here with that one.

Pretty much the same story with the BT21 posts in the big thread and the BT21 thread. Just one post post-dates the creation of the BT21 thread and I think that one will plug in fine.

Again, I'd get Chris's thoughts first.

Allen

Fine. Why not merge them all.

OK, now done. I know it looks a bit messy but I'm sure you all know what you are talking about even if I don't. I was just getting a bit concerned about clogging up this forum with too many discussions about what we are going to do with the thread topics rather than the topics themselves. I'm sure you understand!

There is a Brabham BT38 thread (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63597) on page 8 as well. I had a look at the dates of its posts and they'll work quite well if merged with the 16 BT38 posts out of the BT28/29/30/36/38 thread. All but one of the 16 posts pre-date the thread and the other comes after it stops.

Allen

All the BT40 posts from the big Brabham thread pre-date the BT40 thread so I think we'd be safe to merge it.

Chris - what do you reckon?

Allen

Allen, I haven't waited for Chris reply, because given what we are doing here, I think it likely that he will agree and logic dictates that we apply a consistent approach in the formatting (however, if he doesn't, I have retained copies of original). I have removed a few posts from his old thread (Ralt RT1 stuff, which itself could form the basis of another thread) and now merged with the posts you highlighted from the 'BIG' thread.

The one post left intact in all these new threads so far is yours of the 7 Nov 2004 referring to sprints. However, I'm now thinking that it should be pruned in each to the specific chassis model. It is an interesting subject in itself and the original while post could form the basis of Brabham BT Sprint cars, especially if we could get some pics to go with it.

There is a Brabham BT38 thread (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63597) on page 8 as well. I had a look at the dates of its posts and they'll work quite well if merged with the 16 BT38 posts out of the BT28/29/30/36/38 thread. All but one of the 16 posts pre-date the thread and the other comes after it stops.

Allen

Ok, no problem, I'll do the BT38 thread now! Should be here within the hour!
Can we get comments on all these threads please, because I din't want to leave too many 'stuck' up. Thanks!

John

I'd prefer we didn't have a thread on the Brabham Sprint cars as it will draw attention away from the model-specific threads. But yes, please do prune down each version of the 7 Nov post to take out models not relevant to that thread. Please leave the mystery cars in each version of the post.

Thanks

Allen

Can we get comments on all these threads please, because I din't want to leave too many 'stuck' up. Thanks!I'll put an explanatory post on the new BT40 thread as soon as you unlock it. Andrew has prepared something on the BT36s so I'll leave that one to him.

Allen

John

You anticipated my thoughts exactly on BT40s.
I think a separate RT1 thread would be a good idea.
We do have RT4 already somewhere, don't we?

Chris

OK, BT40 Thread open for business!

John

I'd prefer we didn't have a thread on the Brabham Sprint cars as it will draw attention away from the model-specific threads. But yes, please do prune down each version of the 7 Nov post to take out models not relevant to that thread. Please leave the mystery cars in each version of the post.

Thanks

Allen

OK, I'll get pruning!

John

You anticipated my thoughts exactly on BT40s.
I think a separate RT1 thread would be a good idea.
We do have RT4 already somewhere, don't we?

Chris

Excellent, thanks, Chris.

Well there's a Ralt RT4 thread here:-

http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76157

I've already sent a copy of this thread to the 'Cutting Room' following a comment made, I think by Bryan, that it was a mix of 'Historic Racing Today' and 'Motorsport History' re Ralt chassis. I'll split it, in due course.

John

I'm part way through "Another Chevron one". It's a nightmare!!

Allen

After taking a good look through Another Chevron one (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45474) and also Chevron B48 (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68835), I can't see any way of making a coherent story out of any split of those threads. The "Another Chevron one" thread is unable to focus on any one subject for more than about two posts and a large proportion of the posts address several subjects or address a car where we simply don't know whether it was a B42 or a B48 or a B49 (or a B46 or a B47). However, the basic gist of it is B42s, B48s and B49s. The Chevron B48 thread does at least stick on its subject.

I hate to say this, but the best idea I can come up with is to:
1) merge the Chevron B48 thread into "Another Chevron one"
2) rename it "Chevron B42, B48, B49 and other late Chevrons"
3) lock it!
4) Encourage someone to start new threads on the B42, B48 and B49 along the same lines as Chris's new B20, B25 and B27 threads, starting with a summary of what we know.

Or are 3) and 4) a bad idea?

Allen

Or, as Steve has just suggested on the thread, have just two new threads, one on the B42 and one on the closely-related B47, B48 and B49 models?

Do I assume that there are a lot less Chevron chassis per model type?

Just let me know how you want to play this and I'll sort it.

John and all,

Chevron B29 thread.

Modus items, pages , 35, 36, 37, 39, 40, 42, 43, 45, 47, 61, 72 but with bits of everything, 104, 110 , 283, 288 the last 3 need to stay and be repositioned as well. Same goes for 72 .

Argo's , 448-458 inclusive.

Ralt RT1'S , 297-304 inclusive.

Tiga's , 402-409 incl, 412-416 incl. 418, 420, 421.

Bryan . finished painting duties , had a few hours to kill.

Thanks, Bryan. I'll complete the Brabhams before I move into these.

Yes , for sure John, I just had the time available so got that one out of the road , it can sit for however long you wish.
Bryan.

OK, now done the BT21. Substantial pruning of the posts identified from the originator thread, including the removal of one post which no longer had a relevance (after the pruning!) but the 'other' proper BT21 thread needed very little work indeed, but I have kept a copy of it since there is a little bit of Modus stuff in there, as well.

BT21 Thread now also unlocked.

BT23 ready and unlocked. Allen/Andrew/Byan, please check and put your usual 'marker' in so that I can 'unstick' it!

BT28 ready and unlocked.

I've also added a post each to the BT38 and BT40 threads, in accordance with a request from Andrew.

Just the BT29 and Unidentified threads to go!

Gentlemen, I hope you are checking these threads thoroughly, especially those posts that I have edited!

I hope Chris doesn't mind but I have added 'Chassis No. History' to the titles of his Chevron threads in order to get some consistency, and to readily identify these from any other similar threads.

BT28 ready and unlocked. Ready but locked?

Ooops, sorry! Sorted!

All new threads now running on the Brabham BTs. I reckon I spent about 20 hours altogether, so with all the time you guys have also spent, a fairly large piece of work, but worth it I reckon. Now the Chevrons?

I'm unsticking the original big BT thread, but will put a note on and lock it; don't think we want any more posts on there! Any non chassis, general BT discussion should be the subject of a new thread.

John,

Thank you very much for the work you have put in , it will make life a lot easier and will assist in progressing our investigations.

Bryan.

Thanks, Bryan. I forgot to add that the original thread remains intact and is a complete record of every post, so if I have missed anything out, or over edited, just let me know and I can rectify!

Thanks very much for all this work John

Will your closing note on the original thread provide links to all the new threads?

Allen

I haven't created specific individual links but have pointed to the generic title. Take a look - is that O.K?

It'll do. You're making them work though...

How about making a Lola T450/T550 thread next out of The T450 thread (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45296&highlight=T450) next?

I reckon it needs posts 15, 16, 17 (split), 18 (split), 19 (copy), 27 (copy), 28 (copy), 29, 30 (copy), 40 (copy), 41 (copy), 42 (copy), 70-75, 76 (copy), 83, 89, 90, 114 (copy), 118, 121 (copy), 129 (copy), 130 (copy), 131 (copy), 142-156 and 169 (copy).

Then I could add the T450 and T550 Lola records I got at Huntingdon today. :)

Allen

Allen,

That's a bit of good work getting the records , what do we do with Col. Haste's T460 stuff , I haven't looked to refresh myself , but there is certainly T360 stuff and maybe T450/550 in there as well.

Bryan.

Sorry Bryan, I've called that thread "The T450 thread" in my post above when it's actually the "F/Atlantic T460 info required" thread that Colin Haste started. Everything that's left after the T450/T550 material is removed makes a solid T460 thread.

Is there a second T460 thread somewhere?

It'll do. You're making them work though...

Mmmmmmm! There are 9 separate threads and maybe I'lll get around to putting links in, but I don't think that thread will be first port of call once word gets around.

Now, are you asking me to do the Lola T450/550 thread next? For consistency and to identify it for what it is can I add Chassis No. History to the title? There is method in my madness; I'm looking ahead a bit!

Incidentally, as well as Chevron stuff, I think we should be able to do a Ralt RT1 and RT4 one as well, igf you are interested.

Hi John

My concern was an owner finding the old thread through a search, wanting to add a "you'll never guess what I've bought" and finding it locked. Not worth worrying about though.

Yes, the T450/550 thread would be a "Chassis No. History" thread like the other recent ones. I found Chevron B35 posts in that T460 thread as well, despite Chris having also started a B34-B39 thread. However, the T460 thread, once the T450 posts are trimmed, makes a good Lola T460/T560 "Chassis No. History" thread.

I'm going for the lowest hanging fruit at the moment. :)

Allen

Ok, l'll get around to putting these links in; I'm good to you, aren't I?

Right with the Lola's, I trim as per your earlier post so that we have an individual Lola T450/550 and a Lola T460/560 thread.

Also if you want to identify any 'stray' posts like the above mentioned B35 posts, I can copy or move them into the relevant threads, although I would only suggest we do that if said posts are relevant to the chassis history and don't duplicate info already contained there.

The stray Chevron B34 and B35 posts are as follows:

42 (copy/split up), 43 (ditto), 45, 47, 48, 49 (split), 59, 106 (copy) and 108 (copy).

They are relevant and are not direct duplication. Chronologically the bulk of them go before the February 2004 "Chevron B34-B39" (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50751)thread so Chris may not want that B34-39 thread messed up.

By the way, the search facility won't see "B34-B39" as a match to a search for "B34" or for "B39" so it may be better to write the thread name as "Chevron B34 B35 B38 B39 - Chassis No. History" (as it doesn't include the B36 sports car or the B37 F5000").

Chris - are you happy with this change?

John - if I created a list of all the new "Chassis No. History" threads and their URLs, could we have (locked) sticky called "Chassis No. History index" so people have an easy way of seeing what topics have been started and what haven't?

Allen

John - if I created a list of all the new "Chassis No. History" threads and their URLs, could we have (locked) sticky called "Chassis No. History index" so people have an easy way of seeing what topics have been started and what haven't? Allen

I have no problem with that short term, although I'm endeavouring to seek a better long term solution!

I've been through this thread and the following have been mentioned and are outstanding:-

1) diz popped in a while back to mention the BT9
2) Chevron B29 - breakdown? (everyone?)
3) Modus and Argo racing history (Bryan)
4) Tui thread to be renamed? (Bryan)
5) Winkleman/Palliser thread to be renamed? (Bryan)
6) Allen's option around thread splits for Chevron B48s etc plus Another Chevron One plus merging?
7) Lola T450/550 & T460/560 threads? (Allen)
8) Rename B34-39 thread, (Chris?)
9) I need to check whether I have left in the mystery BTs on your sprint car post, Allen; not sure I did!


I'm not going to do any work on this for a few days, as I'm away from midday tomorrow for 48 hours or so. I can probably start again on Monday, so you have a few days to decide which you want me to progress first etc!

I think 4 and 5 were my idea. They aren't really working chassis by chassis but both have the potential as progress is being made offline. I would like to adopt them into this overall framework that seems to be emerging.

Another renaming to add to the list: my March 802 thread.

Allen

Sorry Allen, I was going from memory; call it a 'senior' moment!

If you look at the top of this forum, you will see a new sub forum. I have requested that it be in alpahnumeric order, so that we don't have to index it. I'm about to put a few in there to check all is OK.

John

Very interesting approach. That will certainly make them easy to find. Does this mean they will no longer appear in the main forum index or will they still be there but with "Moved" next to them? And will they still come up if you search the main forum?

Can anyone add a thread to that forum or would a thread need to be moved by you?

One minor point, which I should have spotted earlier, is that I'd personally prefer "Chassis History" to "Chassis Number History". It's the history of the chassis that we're concerned about, not the number that it might or might not have worn. The Zerex is a good example of a numberless car but we're also researching many Brabhams and Marchs where we may never know their number.

And it's one word less, which is always good!

Thanks

Allen

Allen,

1) They should appear in the main forum search, but I will check
2) At this stage, anyone can add a thread, but clearly we reserve the right to alter the title so that it is consistent with the alphanumeric format, or to move it back into the main forum if it doesn't fit. Also because of the (ours/yours?) aims, posts should ideally be factual with not too many off topic remarks or too many exchanges of pleasantries etc. I'm hoping this will create a seriously useful tool for you guys!
4) There is, of course, no reason why you shouldn't start a thread in the main forum and we can move it to the sub forum suitably (if necessary) edited/pruned later
5) I was going to remove the 'Chassis No. History' part of the thread titles, anyway, in the light of the sub forum title. Do you want me to ask that the sub forum title be changed to your suggestion as well? (That is something I can't do myself)
6) I'll leave the redirects in the main forum for the time being (in which case the search will show them, anyway)
7) Are you happy with the altered colour scheme; that's how it has arrived but I understand it can be altered? Personally, sepia, brown and cream seems appropriate for history (reminds me of old photos!) but can be changed.

Finally, I was really hoping you guys would approve of this addition because it is the work we have been doing together on the Brabham stuff that has sown the seed in my head and driven this. Hope the idea was not misplaced. Any changes you would like to see, other than those above, just let me know, and I'll see if it can be done!

As I said yesterday, I'm off for a couple of days from later today, so I won't be able to respond to anything until late Sunday or even Monday, so don't worry if you don't see all the changes I've referred to above until then.

Hi John

I think it's looking good so far. I'm can't tell yet how it's going to work in terms of "findability" but the level of organisation we now have is a huge step forward.

Thanks for doing this.

Allen

5) I was going to remove the 'Chassis No. History' part of the thread titles, anyway, in the light of the sub forum title. Do you want me to ask that the sub forum title be changed to your suggestion as well? (That is something I can't do myself)Yes please.

What do we think of moving the GRD thread in here? Even the ASD thread?

Allen

Ok, request now submitted for the removal of the word 'Number' from the sub forum title!

I'll have a look at the threads you have mentioned.

There seem to be at least 3 GRD threads. May need a bit of work and merging before ready for the sub forum?

Also not sure about the ASD one at this stage. I'll take your combined advice on this.

This seems like a good candidate although I haven't gone through the thread itself.

http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53758

This seems like a good candidate although I haven't gone through the thread itself.

http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53758

Definately include this thread.

I agree

There seem to be at least 3 GRD threads. May need a bit of work and merging before ready for the sub forum? Hi John

Yes, three of them!! The main thread is the [/url="http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61248"]Mo Harness[/url] one and should be the basis of a new GRD Chassis History thread. The GRD 376 (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66444) thread is straightforward and can merge straight in. The GRD 372 and 374 (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57976&highlight=GRD) one is a little harder. Most of it is before the Mo Harness thread started but some of the Oct/Nov 2005 posts will be in amongst the main thread posts. The only issue I could see was that Chris's post of 2 Nov (#35), which is talking about the Williamson 372 in the posts above, will get separated from them by quite a way. However, it still makes sense as a standalone post so I don't think it's worth worrying about.

The last four posts of the GRD 372 and 374 thread can be deleted as they are just pointing out the existence of the Mo Harness thread or duplicating posts. Apart from that, all three can just be merged together.

The merged thread will be a great resource.

Allen

OOOOOOH pretty brown colours, makes a change from staring at blue,

Seriously , just great .

Bryan.

OOOOOOH pretty brown colours, makes a change from staring at blue,

Seriously , just great .

Bryan.

The brown palette is far easier on the eye. How about a Motorsport Green banner heading? Or is that too controversial?

:cool:

As referred to in the suggested guideline, this is the place for you to:-

1) Provide your suggestions about how we ensure this thread stays true to its aims, and how to improve it
2) To highlight any posts that you consider should not be here because they are irrelevant or inappropriate.

Interesting idea, Steve!

OK, as you can see I'm back now, so I'll try and make a start on the suggested threads for edit/transfer, tomorrow!

A comment on your guidelines: opinions are an important element of establishing the truth and must be allowed if not encouraged. The important thing is to make it clear that it is only an opinion.

A better rule would be "quote your sources". A comment "Bill's car went to Joe" is not as useful as "Bill told me that he sold his car to Joe" or Autosport (12 Apr 1973 p12) says "Joe was driving his ex-Bill car".

Allen

Thanks, Allen, I thought that would require a qualification, so happy to amend!

We need to bear in mind the size of images that should be kept to the rules of the website and identified in the website FAQs. Please make sure that an image is not so large that it distorts the rest of the page, or better still, post it as a thumbnail. Andrew, in accordance with this, I'm afraid I'm going to have to reduce this image ....
....http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=1551646#post1551646
...... to a thumbnail. Sorry!

Please ensure that any images posted are free from copyright,and if not are posted with the copyright holders permission(as Allen Brown has done with me )

Ted, that is, of course, one of our website rules anyway, but as images may become, I hope, an important and integral part of this archive, I'll add that to the 'Please Read First' thread. Many thanks for reminding me.

It seems sensible to change the thread name and move it here.

GRD threads now merged in accordance with Allen's advice. Let me know if any further pruning is required. The original threads remain in their entirety in the main forum, so we can edit as much as we like here, without losing any posts from the site.

How about making a Lola T450/T550 thread next out of The T450 thread (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45296&highlight=T450) next?

I reckon it needs posts 15, 16, 17 (split), 18 (split), 19 (copy), 27 (copy), 28 (copy), 29, 30 (copy), 40 (copy), 41 (copy), 42 (copy), 70-75, 76 (copy), 83, 89, 90, 114 (copy), 118, 121 (copy), 129 (copy), 130 (copy), 131 (copy), 142-156 and 169 (copy).

Then I could add the T450 and T550 Lola records I got at Huntingdon today. :)

Allen

OK, I did this, but was unhappy with the end result. I was concerned that the discussion between several posters (including me!) over the value of the car purchased by Thomas lola's Dad brought only dubious, if any, value to this particular thread. Also his understandable response to a post by dereklola is irrelevant since Derek's post was no longer on this thread. I have therefore edited Thomas' post drastically, and removed the following posts relating to the issue. I'd also like to severely edit posts 22 and 23 and dispense with post 24 altogether, since this is about thread is about the 450/550, not the 460. Any thoughts?

I'd also like to severely edit posts 22 and 23 and dispense with post 24 altogether, since this is about thread is about the 450/550, not the 460. Any thoughts?I don't understand. Posts 22, 23 and 24 all relate to T460s so they should stay where they are.

I hope you haven't been confused by the horrible error I made in the post you quote - which should say:

How about making a Lola T450/T550 thread next out of The T460 thread next.

So the posts you are taking out form a new (F2) T450/T550 thread while what's left behind becomes a (Atlantic) T460/T560 thread.

Sorry about that mix up.

Allen

http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41138

The Lotus 35 thread - there are some mentions of other models, but not many.


Paul M

I don't understand. Posts 22, 23 and 24 all relate to T460s so they should stay where they are. Allen

Sorry, but I think I have confused you now! :) The post numbers I am referring to are in the new T450/550 thread (have you looked at it, yet, Allen?). They do indeed relate primarily to the 460, and should be left in the original thread, which is why I'm asking the question. I haven't sorted the main thread out yet!

http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41138

The Lotus 35 thread - there are some mentions of other models, but not many.


Paul M

Paul, yes, looks like a good call! I'll have a proper look, shortly!

I see Simon's chipped in to start a thread on the Merlyn Mk6 which I hope we can help with. I'd really like to see some more sportcar chassis history on here. B6/B8, B16, B19, Ginetta G12, Lotus 23, Brabham BT8 etc?

OK, now I see it. I had the default "in the last two weeks" setting so I wasn't seeing some of the older threads that you've now moved across.

The posts you refer to are talking about the David Render cars and I think they can stay put. Render's "T460" was actually a T450 and his "T560" was actually a T550 so they need to be in the 450/550 thread. I'm just about to "reveal" what I learnt at Lola about the T550 and the T560 which will straighten out a lot of the confusion.

Because the way the search works, can the thread title be "T450 and T550" please? The search won't give you "T450/550" in response to a search for either "T450" or even "550" as it sees "T450/550" as a different word. Ditto the T380/390 thread please.

Allen

The Lotus 35 thread took a bit more work than expected, and I have also separated out a small thread on the 44. There is also a lot of very good info. on the 41 in the original 35 thread, so I'll sort that one out, too.

After taking a good look through Another Chevron one (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45474) and also Chevron B48 (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68835), I can't see any way of making a coherent story out of any split of those threads. The "Another Chevron one" thread is unable to focus on any one subject for more than about two posts and a large proportion of the posts address several subjects or address a car where we simply don't know whether it was a B42 or a B48 or a B49 (or a B46 or a B47). However, the basic gist of it is B42s, B48s and B49s. The Chevron B48 thread does at least stick on its subject.

I hate to say this, but the best idea I can come up with is to:
1) merge the Chevron B48 thread into "Another Chevron one"
2) rename it "Chevron B42, B48, B49 and other late Chevrons"
3) lock it!
4) Encourage someone to start new threads on the B42, B48 and B49 along the same lines as Chris's new B20, B25 and B27 threads, starting with a summary of what we know.

Or are 3) and 4) a bad idea?

Allen

Any decision on this yet, folks?

This looks like a good candidate but might need some splitting out, particularly as there are references to T55s as well:-

http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41483

I have taken the gamble of moving a few 'standalone' threads into here and hope you agree with that. Some are clearly awaiting updates! There are others which could be suitable that I haven't yet moved because they don't really appear to have enough 'meat' on them.

Good thread on those early Lolas. Best of luck working out what to call it. Maybe you can model the name on the March 73S - 74S - 75S - 76S - 77S etc thread!

I see it ended with me failing to fulfill a promise. Again!

Allen

Allen, you're not the only one! Bryan needs to be looking here! ;)

http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=1278429#post1278429

As you can see, I've started to add a few pics; not only to illustrate the models but help to keep track of where some of these cars are now. I hope that you think this is a good idea, as I am building up quite a collection of (my own!) pics that I'm happy to put on here, as long as no-one expects professional quality!

Allen, now I have split out the T450 & 550 stuff out from the main T460 thread, do you agree that most of the remainder, having edited out B35 posts and other extraneous material(!) should be called the 'Lola T360, T460 & T560' thread? Also are you happy for me to do this without any further input from you? Is everbody else happy with what has been done, so far?

John

I'm not sure whether the T360 stuff belongs in that thread long term. There is also this brief Lola T360 thread (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=77114&highlight=T360) from December 2005 that would make a better home for trimmed out T360 information. Or, to make life easier, we could just leave the T360 stuff embedded in the T460/T560 thread for the time being (as it predates the T360 thread) but use that thread just for T460/560 information from here on. So we'd have separate threads going forward for the T360 and for the T460/T560.

But yes, I am completely happy for you to do this without further input. I am very happy with what's been done so far. It's really working out well.

Allen

What about the Modus thread (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37030)?

Thanks, Allen. I'll try to sort that Lola thread out. If I can separate the T360 out, without losing too much continuity, I'll then see if I can fit it into the T360 thread you mention.

I haven't forgotten either that there is still some outstanding action on threads discussed earlier in this thread. I'll get it all done ...... in time!

The Modus thread was one of them!

As you can see, I've started to add a few pics; not only to illustrate the models but help to keep track of where some of these cars are now. I hope that you think this is a good idea
Much appreciated, puts life into what can get a bit dry at times.

John,

I agree with Allen's post above, there is enough T360 stuff to stand alone, the T460 's should stay with the T560 , as there is only one T560 built .
Please see email re your above message , copy it to Allen if you wish.
Bryan.

I'd also like to get the Tui thread (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68672) renamed to match the others. And the Winkelmann-Palliser thread (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1543209#post1543209). Allen

Now done, but I haven't checked them for editing. Do I need to?

John and all,

Chevron B29 thread.

Modus items, pages , 35, 36, 37, 39, 40, 42, 43, 45, 47, 61, 72 but with bits of everything, 104, 110 , 283, 288 the last 3 need to stay and be repositioned as well. Same goes for 72 .

Argo's , 448-458 inclusive.

Ralt RT1'S , 297-304 inclusive.

Tiga's , 402-409 incl, 412-416 incl. 418, 420, 421.

I haven't done this yet because it is, I think, the toughest yet. I have to print out the B29 thread and manually number the pages (as per the BT thread), then split this all out from several copies of the original thread sent to my 'Holding' area (what I call my cutting room!). I have, however, made a start and created an Ralt RT1 thread, using the 'Ralt RT1s down under' thread as the platform. I have already merged a couple of relevant posts in there from another thread, so that is likely to be the next one to appear!

Wasn't there a thread on the Brabham BT14. I'm sure I remember starting one and getting a fair way with it but I can't find it now.

Anyone else remember that one?

Allen

I can't find it either, Allen, but in searching, I found the Birrana thread which with a bit of pruning and editing has proved a very suitable candidate here, so that is now done. Complete original left in main forum, locked with a link.

My search also took me to Irish Formula Atlantic thread which has loads of RT1 stuff in it, so a copy of that has gone off to the 'Cutting Room', too!

Ralt RT1 now here! What fun that was merging posts from 4 different threads. Needs someone to collate all the data and do an update, I think!

Ralt RT1 now here! What fun that was merging posts from 4 different threads. Needs someone to collate all the data and do an update, I think!Great work John ... but ...

there is also this RT1 thread (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56450&highlight=RT1) and this even longer F2 RT1 thread (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47762&highlight=RT1). Neither of those appear to be included. The latter thread doesn't stick to F2 Ralts at all and wanders all over the RT1 universe.

We really must learn our lesson of only one thread per model!

Allen

Yes, I have to say you guys do seem to go off thread topic on a regular basis! However, with this new forum there's going to be more self discipline, isn't there? :laugh: Seriously though, the temptation will be less here because of both the format and aims of the forum. I'll merge those two RT1 threads in, no problem ........ in due course!

Another candidate: a very good Lyncar F/Atl chassis history thread (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74159).

It is probably me , but where can I find the original uncensored B29 thread .???

Noted, in future thumbs it will be.

I guess that now this research has moved up a notch or three its time to get serious,

Where I have listed
1970 Driver A
1971 Driver B
I have assumed that its understood that A has not necessairly sold to B

Also
1970 Driver A
1970 Advertised by Bob Howlings
1971 Driver B

same applies again, for instance Howlings may have had it on consignment and Driver B is now leasing it from Driver A

When I post something, -assume nothing!

It's here Bryan:-

http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1542278&highlight=Chevron+B29#post1542278

Completely unedited and still open!

John, thank you.
Bryan.

I've now edited the RT2 thread and placed it here. Do you want me to keep the Lant RT2 thread separate? It's here:-

http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68198&highlight=Lant

The original RT2 thread is fully intact on main forum but closed.

I've also added the ARGO and Talbot 90 & 105 threads here.

I've now edited the RT2 thread and placed it here. Do you want me to keep the Lant RT2 thread separate? It's here:-

http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68198&highlight=Lant

The original RT2 thread is fully intact on main forum but closed.

I've also added the ARGO and Talbot 90 & 105 threads here.

Johnh, the Lant RT4 thread MUST remain seperate as they are a different manufacturer. It would be OK if they were 'built under license' but that wasn't the case.

Steve

Fair enough, but I guess a tidied up version should be in here.

Ralt RT4 now in but its a 'bitsa' from plucked from 3 threads; hope it makes sense.

Incidentally, can I make it 'Pilbeam' only, as this is the chassis history forum? Also is it ARGO or Argo?

Ralt RT4 now in but its a 'bitsa' from plucked from 3 threads; hope it makes sense.

Incidentally, can I make it 'Pilbeam' only, as this is the chassis history forum? Also is it ARGO or Argo?

John, by all means make it PILBEAM.

As far as I know it is Argo!

:)

After much work, Modus thread now in (Bryan, I have kept it separate from the Argo thread, as I think that would have got swamped if merged with Modus - is that, OK?)
Also put a reworked Ensign LNF3 thread in here. Both the original Modus and Ensign threads remain intact in the main forum.

John,
There is also this brief Lola T360 thread (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=77114&highlight=T360) from December 2005 that would make a better home for trimmed out T360 information. Allen

I've finally caught up with this one!. Now merged in its entirety into the T360 thread here. However, I have left the complete original in the main forum with a link to here and closed it.

Another candidate: a very good Lyncar F/Atl chassis history thread (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74159).

Now done. Also prepared a trimmed Chevron B42 thread!

Now this Chevron B34-B39 thread that Chris started? It intrigues me since half the posts seem to be about B40's and B42s, so apart from splitting threads out on those two, I've had the audacity to split out the B35 posts! I reckon of the original thread, there maybe 2 or 3 posts not covering those three types! I have however left the original thread complete and open on the main forum!

:rofl: That's pretty typical of us. It's a good thing we've got you to look after us!

Allen

Thanks, Allen; as long as you trust me not screw up! :laugh:

Hi John

Can we pull across the Lola T280 thread and the Toleman TG280 / Lola T850 - T860 thread? These last three models do belong together as the T850 and T860 were Lola's production versions of the Toleman.

Thanks

Allen

And I thought I had earned a rest! ;)

The Lola 280 thread is massive, of course, and at a first glance probably needs some editing. It also carries posts on T380 & T390 (I'll put these in the appropriate thread if anything new in them) and also T282, T286 etc. Should these be split out? Whatever happens here, for this thread to be a good source of info. and research it needs some worthy to do a summary, and for a layman like me to understand also the differences between the types if you advise that the above models that I have identified should stay in the thread, an explanation of those differences.

Right, off to look at the Toleman thread!

Hi John

You had earned a rest but...

The T280, T282, T284 (if it existed) and T286 belong together as we never really established the boundaries, if any. Lola records list all on the same page which is good enough for me. There may be a handful of T380 and T390 posts but I'd be surprised if there were many. I'd expect it to be a fairly cohesive thread and need little editing.

I did a summary at http://www.oldracingcars.com/Projects/LolaT280.htm which probably needs a bit of a refresh.

Allen

I've moved the Toleman thread across but it does confuse me, since references are made to Ralt RT2s and the fact that Toleman's built cars apparently using the Ralt as a basis. However, as I understand it they also modified Lola T280's to become TG280's and that presumably then Lola took these mods on board to build their T850 and T860 models. The point here is that since I am an interested enthusiast but unlike you guys, not an expert, I use myself as the barometer for other enthusiasts and readers to judge whether it is clear. Basically, if I don't understand it, and on the basis that you don't think I'm a total idiot (I know, I know, it's debatable!), it needs clarification!

The Toleman TG280 was a development of the customer Ralt RT2 that Toleman had used in 1979. So yes, references to the RT2 are inevitable.

The Lola T280 was a completely unrelated sports car 8 years earlier. The '280' bit is just a concidence - well not a complete coincidence because I noticed it when seaching for the TG280 thread.

Allen

OK, thanks, Allen. I should have noted the dates re the T280! So on what basis did Lola take on the construction of the TG280 as their T850 and 860 models? Was it a mutually convenient commercial deal - Toleman didn't have the build capacity and Lola needed to generate additional cashflow?

Yes, exactly that, a commercial deal that suited both parties. Toleman were off to F1 and didn't need the distraction. Lola hadn't had a decent F2 car for quite a while. As it turned out, they still hadn't.

Allen

OK, thanks again, Allen!


Hi John

You had earned a rest but...

The T280, T282, T284 (if it existed) and T286 belong together as we never really established the boundaries, if any. Lola records list all on the same page which is good enough for me. There may be a handful of T380 and T390 posts but I'd be surprised if there were many. I'd expect it to be a fairly cohesive thread and need little editing.

I did a summary at http://www.oldracingcars.com/Projects/LolaT280.htm which probably needs a bit of a refresh.

Allen

Ooops, missed this one. I'll move it across. I do hope that with all these threads there will eventually be summaries where none existed before and updates, say on an annual basis, at least, if necessary!

Yes, exactly that, a commercial deal that suited both parties. Toleman were off to F1 and didn't need the distraction. Lola hadn't had a decent F2 car for quite a while. As it turned out, they still hadn't.

Allen

The way I saw it is similar, but after 1980 there was big interest in customer TG280s for 1981, so it made sense to satisfy this demand. The cars weren't that bad in 1981, they did win a race after all, Stefan J, which most F2 cars never did. They were run by a good team, albeit without the big bucks of the Ralts/Marches/Maurers that year, and with less experienced drivers after all.

I've now copied the Lola T280 thread in here, but have removed posts 341-347 as they brought nothing to the history. They are still in the original (locked) thread, if you want to check them out!

I've got a few posts sitting in the 'Cutting Room' on the Ralt RT3 and Brabham BT6. If anyone has some good info. on either or both, I'll set up threads on them to be developed.

Oh, and I know I sound like a broken down record but is anyone out there able to start an informative Chevron B6/B8 thread. I'm advised that there were originally 44 of the original B8s so it would be good to identify these and note any 'additions'!

I've finally started to do some work on the Chevron B29 thread which seems to have more posts in it about other marques than Chevrons! As you will have noted, I have split out the Chevron B29 posts and set up a separate thread in here; that seemed fairly straight forward. I have also split out posts on the March 705 and 712M; again fairly straightforward.

Now the potentially contentious one which I have just moved here - March 73B - 74B - 75B - 76B - 77B. Very difficult since the posts concerned were so much intertwined with other March models I'm not sure it has worked. I'm trying to create one for 722,732,742, 752, 762 etc but not quite sure how it will pan out. I need your help here; if they don't work, please tell me; I can easily merge them back together or edit them appropriately!

The 'original' B29 thread also has plenty of Modus stuff which will probably augment the existing Modus chassis thread. Also I think some Argo posts.

Now the potentially contentious one which I have just moved here - March 73B - 74B - 75B - 76B - 77B. Very difficult since the posts concerned were so much intertwined with other March models I'm not sure it has worked. I'm trying to create one for 722,732,742, 752, 762 etc but not quite sure how it will pan out. I need your help here; if they don't work, please tell me; I can easily merge them back together or edit them appropriately!

Possibly try to keep all the posts together for each year's production fo f2 and FAt cars (e.g. 732/73B and 742/74B). There were a lot of cross-over cars that were F2 that raced Atlantic and vice versa.

:ill:

Thanks, Steve. I have just added the 722, 732, 742 etc thread. Have a look at it. I have left in some cross referencing and also bits of F3 (for want of elsewhere to put them) but if no good, I can rework it. Keeping cars to single year's production may well be possible, although I have noted several posts referring to upgrading to later year's specs!

Allen, Bryan, Chris, Ted, Andrew, Dan, et al, any comments?

The Marches are a nightmare! Chris and Dan have developed a good handle on many of them but it's the toughest subject to organise.

I think the connection between, say, the 73B and the 74B is stronger than between the 742 and the 74B. In other words, a '74B' was more likely to be an earlier 'B' updated than a 742 converted. So I think the way you have them at the moment is probably best.

We may be able to split the 722 out at some later point as it was that year's FB/Atlantic car and also the F2 car. And there were nearly 50 of them!!

Allen

John,
I have been all the way thru the 73B/74B etc. and that doesn't appear to have lost anything in it's ' translation' , as a matter of fact I found it fairly easy to work with.

Off to the F2 cars now.
Bryan.

Allen and Bryan, thank you! I await your judgement on the F2 cars, Bryan!

I had thought about splitting the 722 out but decided not to at this stage. However, compared to what I have had to do with the Chevron B29 thread up to now, I would imagin eit will be relatively simple!

I think that the Chevron B34-39 is ready for splitting.There is some pretty good info on a number of the individual type numbers so worth doing. If I get no objections, I'll do that tomorrow. I will fttb, leave the original thread intact however.

John,
After I posted the other day on the B34-39 thread , I felt it was ready to move.

John

Could we move in the Lola T60 thread (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41483)?

Allen

Now done, Allen! Are you about to give us an update summary?

Wish I could John! Maybe Chris will have news.

John,

Now that it has re-appeared , the Brabham BT18 thread looks like a starter for re-direction.

Bryan.

Telepathy, and a consensus ad idem, Bryan! I've just moved it here BEFORE reading your above post!

Right, at long last I've picked up on Dan's, Bryan's and Allen's hints and sorted (hopefully!) the Chevron B48 thread!

John

Could we move the Lotus 69 thread (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64415&highlight=moonraker) in please? There's not much in there yet but it can at least be a basis for future research.

Thanks

Allen

No probs, thought you'd never ask!

I wonder whether we should in fact call it Lotus 59 & 69?

I wouldn't. The 59s are a much bigger and far uglier subject.

Ok, spoilsport, but a thread on 59s would be good, too. I could then post my faded 1970 picture of Dave Walker's Gold Leaf 59 in the paddock at Thruxton. :laugh:

What about Tecnos, or are we treading on some elses toes if we do them? They always looked a bit different!

And, .... what about these Lenham spyders that have recently appeared in historics. There were 2 at Brands the weekend before last. What do we know about them. Can't have been many built, can there?

Ok, spoilsport, but a thread on 59s would be good, too. I could then post my faded 1970 picture of Dave Walker's Gold Leaf 59 in the paddock at Thruxton. :laugh:

What about Tecnos, or are we treading on some elses toes if we do them? They always looked a bit different!

And, .... what about these Lenham spyders that have recently appeared in historics. There were 2 at Brands the weekend before last. What do we know about them. Can't have been many built, can there?

Calm Down, it's only a suggestion!:rotate:

I am perfectly calm; and I'm offering some further suggestions, to which you have not responded Steve! :D

I am perfectly calm; and I'm offering some further suggestions, to which you have not responded Steve! :D

Sorry headmaster, I'll slink off now and have a ponder!;)

That's the second time you've called me headmaster; I'll be getting a complex! No slinking allowed in the corridors, but pondering is fine if it brings forth results! :laugh:

I see that Chris Townsend has reopened the Lotus 59 & 69 debate, and there seems to be a similar concern over March 783 & 793. I await the deliberations of the experts in due course!

Chris has overruled us! Lotus 59 + 69 it is.

Ok, I'll alter it. We can always split it later. However, I have to say that, on reading his post, Chris makes a good case. It seems to me that with some of these cars the specs were subject to continuous development and that the manufacturers merely allocated new type numbers each year to convey the updating (imagined or otherwise) to the customers.

Ok, I'll alter it. We can always split it later. However, I have to say that, on reading his post, Chris makes a good case. It seems to me that with some of these cars the specs were subject to continuous development and that the manufacturers merely allocated new type numbers each year to convey the updating (imagined or otherwise) to the customers.

It's called marketing!;)

Oh, silly me, and I thought it was intended to confuse future historians! :D

I see that the Merlyn Mk21 thread continues in the main forum. I think I have left it alone because initially the new posts appeared to be about a specific Mk 21 chassis. However, as the posts continue, I wonder whether I should be adding them to our chassis archive thread and shutting down the one in the main forum. Any views?

Folks, I'm away for a few days, so don't worry about me not responding to any thread amendment requests or additions. I'll do them when I return. I will also start to review where we are with this project. Personally, (and I would say this wouldn't I?) I think it has developed extremely well since inception nearly 6 months ago. I have two areas that I would like to look at:-

1) The need to make posts understandable to researchers (you guys) and laymen (like me!). I'm concerned at the use of abbreviations, textspeak, nicknames, lack of punctuation etc. If, as I believe we all agree on, that as well as being fun, it is also a serious research tool, we need to bear this in mind. So, I will shortly go into 'review' mode on all the threads and edit wherever I feel the reader might struggle to easily grasp the information. I won't alter meanings or words, and I hope no-one will take offence; it's certainly not intended, and in any event you can always PM if you feel that I have overstepped the mark or unwittingly changed the meaning!
2) Increase the number of threads, particularly on sports cars, and encourage more modern machinery, in order that future historians don't have quite the same degree of difficulty untangling them that you guys have with the older cars!

Sorry, I do really sound like the headmaster, don't I? :laugh:

What is the general view on including saloon cars in the Chassis Archive? A lot of work has gone into the Rover Vitesse thread but it doesn't have "chassis numbers" (what in UK is now called a VIN plate). There was quite a bit of interest in a Lotus Cortina thread on this forum (and in another place). I have some data on "Works" race and rally Cortinas but it largely must consist of what reg no was carried on what event. Particularly in the case of rally cars, we know they were re-shelled but retained the same identity. Clearly there is no point covering models where "works" books already exist - Minis, Escorts etc.

There is no need for a car to have a chassis number to be in the archive as long as there's a way to distinguish the cars. A lot of US-built single seaters weren't allocated chassis numbers so they can either be given artificial retrospective numbers (like the South African LDS F1 cars were) or just use the first owner's name, as was done for some of the Millers Indy 500 cars.

So 'the Pugh car', 'the McGrew car', 'the Cuthbert car' and so on are perfectly acceptable ways of working.

Allen

Yep, absolutely no problems with saloons. In fact we have threads in here for both the SD1 Rover Vitesse and the BMW 635CSi already. As Allen says, where no chassis number exists, as long as we can identify the individual cars by some other means, that is fine. Cortinas would be great!

Whilst I take your point about cars with books already produced about them, even this isn't off limits because, they are not always entirely correct and also do have some gaps. So the archive can be used to challenge perceived wisdom (with proof) or to fill gaps in the knowledge.

Those of you wondering where the Capri and Cortina threads have gone, they are still here! I've simply retitled them to maintain the consistent format for this forum - marque name first!

The Cdn. Motorsport Hall of Fame Archives are going to be open to the public on the next 2 weekends. See www.motorsportscentral.com (http://www.motorsportscentral.com) for more information. For those trying to track race results etc. this might help if you can get someone to attend. Sorry, I cannot attend as we are open on weekends for ice fishermen (assuming we get safe ice). Hog and Sturgeon Bay just froze on Sat. (about a month late) and I wouldn't trust the ice yet despite -15C temp today. We need at least a week of those temp. for the ice to be safe and you do not have to go far out to find open water.
Maybe Bob or Brett Harrington or John Lindsay might be able to attend.

It's been mentioned on CMSHG but nobody responded. It would be great if we could get someone in there and find out what they have. No list of contents, even an overview, has ever been published to my knowledge.

John - are you able to see what 10 Tenths members live around Toronto?

Allen

No, sorry, I can only search by username. I can only suggest a PM to Georgethecar, in the hope that he picks it up in time.

Bob Harrington is about 30 to 50 miles away and has connections from his days as a CASC official. I have no idea what they still have but I think the address is or was that of the Ont. region of CASC. When Muriel Knapp was alive she would have kept everything.

The Archive apparantly has all the CASC materials.

I'd love to know whether they have race results for Formula A and B races in the period 1968-1971 but it seems that the only way to find out is to get in there and look.

Allen

At that time CASC was comprised of several regions, Maritimes, Quebec, Ont, Prairie and BC. Ont. is the only surviving region. Power struggle and different NTL. governing body now. I suspect most of the archives are from Ont. where Muriel was Ma Knapp and really ran the Region no matter who the elected officials were.
There is a good chance that she was able to get a hold of the Ntl. Archives during or after the power struggle. Again Bob Harrington is the best bet and he is a member of the Forum.

I'm noting more and more that racing car dealers are quoting chassis nos. in their adverts (good on them), and I was struck by this coincidence in the latest issue of Octane:-

1963 ISO Grifo A3/C, chassis B 0201 (Hall & Bradfield, Pg 131)
1964 ISO Grifo A3/C, chassis B 0202 (Grand Prix Classics, Pg 150)

Can't be too often that rare cars with consecutive chassis nos. appear for sale in the same mag.

John

Would you be willing to disect the March 722-to-772 thread?

Before I get into the French 762s, I think it would be beneficial to start a specific 762 thread. There is very little 762-relevant content in the big thread, mainly just posts 194 and 206-210. There are relevant mentions on posts 125, 159 and 191 which might warrant copying the post and very minor references on posts 187, 190 and 215 which could be ignored.

If you're happy to make this amend, I'll also go though and identify the 772 content as that would be even easier to strip out. That would leave us with a thread covering the 722, 732, 742 and 752.

Allen

Yep, no problem, Allen.

772 bits are easier:

Posts 1-5; 14 (part?); 25; 74-75; 175-193; 195-197; 215. I have left behind anything that talks about a car that was modified into a 772.

I noticed there are some 772P posts still there. I'm not sure whether copies of thee are now in the 772P thread and they can be safely removed or whether they got left behind.

I'll have a crack at sorting this over the next few days.

I have removed the off topic posts of Drifty, Chris, Allen and myself, from the Tecno F2 thread.

Thread now split out to include all posts referred to by Allen above but suitably (I hope!) edited. Where the posts appear to be 772 related, I have also highlighted the reference to 762 to show why they have been left in, and for continuity. The latter reason also explains why I have left the references to David Franklin's 772-10 - see post #3.

Separate thread now in place. Will now edit/delete where necessary in the original thread multi type thread.

Thanks John

John

Could the March 723 thread be moved into the Archive please.

Allen

Hi John,
re-LolaT70 mk3 b.

As i have some updated material is it possible to be able to modify the 1st post on the thread, so all info on the chassis are availible on one post?.

Or is there a way i can update the post ?.


Pete

Hi, Pete,

It shouldn't be a problem. If you go to your first post, you can hit the 'Quote' button and then start editing it so that the amendments appear in your new post. You can then take out the quote brackets, so that it appears as a completely new post. Alternatively, of course, you can drag the cursor across the whole of first post to highlight it, right click, select 'copy' and then paste it in the new post, and again edit it, with the same result.

(Reminder to me - a further update to be made to the Chris Beighton car!)

John

Could the March 723 thread be moved into the Archive please.

Allen

Allen, you've answered the question I was about to pose. Will be done, Sir!

Thanks John knew there must be a way ;)

Pete

John

Could Steve's new 713M thread (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=96623) be merged into the 703 thread (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61326) already in the archive. The 703 thread has talked more about 713s than 703s so I guess it should renamed to "March 703 - 713".

Thanks

Allen

Now done, Allen.

John

Could you merge Drifty's new March 792 thread into the original one (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=91856) please?

Thanks

Allen

Would it be a help if there was a sticky with an index to facilitate navigation? It's probably not a must-have but it would save using 'guess and scroll'

It could be as simple as

Page First Entry

ALD
Brabham BT23
Chevron B29
FIA GT
Lola T70 Mk3B
Martini F2
Sunbeam Tigers - The Works cars

Would it be a help if there was a sticky with an index to facilitate navigation? It's probably not a must-have but it would save using 'guess and scroll'

It could be as simple as

Page First Entry

ALD
Brabham BT23
Chevron B29
FIA GT
Lola T70 Mk3B
Martini F2
Sunbeam Tigers - The Works cars


That is a very good idea indeed and will facilitate easier access.

Also how about a slight realignment? Why not put the Display Options at the top of the page as I tend to re-order the sequence by Last Date Posted.

More work for me? I might get around to doing the first one. Not sure I understand the second request, Steve.

More work for me? I might get around to doing the first one. Not sure I understand the second request, Steve.

When you access the Chassis History Archive the various threads appear in alphabetical order. If you page down to the foot of the first page you can select that they are displayed in a different order (e.g. last updated thread first). If this section of the page was relocated to the top it would (a) be far easier to use, (b) people would probabaly be aware of what it can do to save them time, (c) be used more frequently.

:relax:

Ah, OK, with you! I can only ask admin. if it's possible.

Not entirely off topic: news about OldRacingCars.com (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=99489)

Hi John Turner,

I have been away for a while and now can't seem to find the Corvette threads. Where are they?

Regards,

Hi, David,

Welcome back! This forum (unlike the others on 10-Tenths) is in alphabetical order and the models will appear after the manufacturers name; thus, in this case you should be looking under Chevrolet, rather than Corvette.

Hi, David,

Welcome back! This forum (unlike the others on 10-Tenths) is in alphabetical order and the models will appear after the manufacturers name; thus, in this case you should be looking under Chevrolet, rather than Corvette.

Thanks for the quick response, John; it is good to be back. I found the alphabetical list but see nothing between Brabham and Chevron. What am I doing wrong?

Regards,

Thanks for the quick response, John; it is good to be back. I found the alphabetical list but see nothing between Brabham and Chevron. What am I doing wrong?

Regards,

David

Go back out to the forum page (1 step) and go to the bottom of the page. Near the lower left of the page you will see "Display Options", select the "from the" option and go out farther on the dates to bring those posts back into your selection range.

Hope this helps.

L.P. :cool:

David

Go back out to the forum page (1 step) and go to the bottom of the page. Near the lower left of the page you will see "Display Options", select the "from the" option and go out farther on the dates to bring those posts back into your selection range.

Hope this helps.

L.P. :cool:

Helped a lot!

Thanks,

Does, or did CART maintain records of cars raced that would include a list by chassis/tech sticker number.

I came across an ebay auction last week for a March 86 series car supposedly driven by Michael Andretti. One of the photos showed a listing of cars by tech sticker number as well as driver name. I sent an email to the seller asking where the list came from. He replied the CART archives are maintained by Billy Kamphausen. CART would not reply to any inquiries and a search on the internet showed Billy Kamphausen to be CART logistics director as well as several other posts.

There are a number of racers who own these older Indy race cars with the stickers still intact. I think the history of these cars is fascinating, and knowing a bit about the car that you are taking around the track (or in my case the car has the lead) adds to the fun.

Any leads would be appreciated. Results will be put on this site...and, any interest in adding an Indycar category to the lists of historic chassis?

Scott B

Scott, welcome back! I can't answer your first question, but can confirm that this archive is for any racing car marque, whatever racing series they performed in, so we would be delighted to see someone build threads on cars raced in the CART series. If you are starting from scratch though, it might be best to initiate a thread in the Motorsport History forum. Alternatively, if you are seeking to build information on all CART cars in general, we could probably start one in here along the lines of the Dutch Supercar thread, which I can 'stick up' at the top of the first page in the same way. Then once we have sufficient information on the specific marque chassis nos, we can split out into individual threads.

Hi John,
Thank you for the follow up. My thought was to make it simple. For the newer era of cars....from the time CART was involved, the cars were all given a registration sticker which seems to go in numerical order from oldest to newest car. So rather than try to sort out all the makes and teams, list the numbers from 1 to whatever is the current highest number, and people can come along and fill in the blank with manufacturer, driver, year(s)raced, and perhaps even wins and such. For instance my March 86A has CART sticker #373. I have found two other cars with numbers close to my car so at least I have a place to start. It just becomes a big jigsaw puzzles, which as pieces are added becomes easier to finish. On the other hand if we could get a response from CART other than their automated system it would all be easier. Maybe an official request from you as the ten-tenths moderator of this forum might be helpful. Any thoughts?

Scott

I see that I completely failed to respond to the last question, so my apologies; and probably too late now!! In general, however, whilst I am happy to help, I would ask that those with the greatest interest in wishing to see thread(s) developed on their chosen marque(s), undertake the initial enquiries/research.

John: just a suggestion on the Index. Could it include hotlinks to the individual pages? For example, if you want to go from the front page or the index thread to (say) page 7, you have to jump either to page 8 or page 5 first.

It's not that I'm lazy or anything .... ;)

I have to update it anyway; I'll see what I can do, next week.

John

Could you merge the two March 80A threads please?

Thanks
Allen

Hi John

Could you move the last few posts from the Chevron B42 thread to the B34 thread (and also remove the posts from me and Steve requesting the tidy up)?

Thanks
Allen

T'is done!