Brabham BT38 [Archive] - 10 Tenths Motorsport Forum

Chris Townsend

20 Jan 2004, 13:59

Further to Bryan's brief note about Brabhams at Trois Rivieres in 77 here is the list I have of BT 38s in Canadian and SCCA races 1972 - 76. This is very incomplete for SCCA and 72-74 in Canada

1972

Eligio Siconolfi BT38
Barry Fox BT38B

1973

Bill O'Conner BT38 ex Rondel
John Powell BT38 ex Rondel big accident
Tom Klausler BT38 ex Rondel

South East Asia 1973
also uses BT38 'ex Jaussaud' [Opert] this car also raced by de Adamich for Opert at Caracas, Venezuala

1974
Canada
Michael Bystrom BT38 retained 1975

SCCA
Chuck Dietrich BT38C

1975
Canada
Bystrom BT38
Ron Rogers BT38

SCCA
Warren Pauge BT38 -15 probably

1976

Peter Halsmer BT38
Cliff Dawson BT38-13

Anybody able to fit any of those into a pattern or offer connections?!!

Chris

Bryan Miller

21 Jan 2004, 02:34

Chri.

Thanks for the BT38 and BT40 info. , so far I had managed to ignore these on purpose.
However , a quick scan of F1R gives chassis numbers for BT38 cars , From BT38-1 for G. Hill , missing all untill , BT38-11 , thence through to BT38-28 in Euro F2 for 1973.

I will happily take a correction, did I not read somewhere in period that the first 10 chassis numbers were allocated to BT38C F3 cars , if this is correct, can you just imagine G. Hill screwing up the system and getting his car numbered -1, as he didn't take delivery untill a fair bit after other cars , Dave Morgan had BT38-20 at Oulton Park in March 1972 , and Graham didn't get BT38-1 til Pau in May.

Bryan.

Bryan Miller

21 Jan 2004, 02:41

Would you believe Euro F2 for 1972.

Chris Townsend

21 Jan 2004, 17:19

Bryan

According to MN the Hill car didn't have a plate, although it was known as chassis 1.
The reason it got to be 1 was that it was taken from the 38C series and converted to F2 spec.

Chris

Bryan Miller

22 Jan 2004, 10:05

Chris.
Thank you , I wonder if every BT38 in the world without a chassis plate now instantly becomes ex Graham Hill.??

David McKinney

22 Jan 2004, 12:15

Re BT38s, my recollection is that the first ten numbers were spaceframe cars and from 11 on were monocoques. Which may be the same thing as the F2/F3 mix mentioned earlier. And clearly the G Hill car would have been the exception.
Are we referring to all F3 BT38s as BT38Cs now? Or is that something else I've missed along the way

cirrus

22 Jan 2004, 20:45

Originally posted by David McKinney
Re BT38s, my recollection is that the first ten numbers were spaceframe cars and from 11 on were monocoques.

According to my records, the BT38 was an F2 (16 built), the 38B was an FB car (5 built), and the 38C was the F3 (14 built). They were all monocoques.

Bryan Miller

23 Jan 2004, 01:01

The factory sheets advise ,

BT38 , F2 , 1972 , 16 off, 21 gallon fuel tanks , 3600.00 pds.
BT38B , FB, 1972, 5 off, 16 gallon fuel tanks, 3400.00 pds.

BT38C, F3 , 14 off , 11 gallon fuel tanks , 2800.00 pds.

All listed as mono's , spaceframe section rear of tub ,i.e. eng. bay.
Mike Lawrence's book , quotes same production figures.

Bryan.

Chris Townsend

17 Feb 2004, 11:18

Some more digging in Canadian race results for 1973 gives us the following update

At Westwood, 27th May 1973

BT38
John Powell [ex Rondel]

At Sanair R3 we have the appearance of Hugh Cree in an unspecified Brabham, Peter Overing in a BT38 [not the Powell car]

Chris

allenbrown

7 Nov 2004, 21:22

Steve Wilkinson

21 Dec 2004, 20:46

David McKinney

21 Dec 2004, 22:59

I haven't checked your list against mine, Steve, but can add 12, which went to Jackie Pretorius in South Africa, and 28, Chris Meek's Tate of Leeds F/At car

Steve Wilkinson

21 Dec 2004, 23:16

BT38-22 was bought by Frank Williams mid season and Tony Trimmer drove it at Brands Hatch.

Steve Wilkinson

27 Dec 2004, 13:49

2nd Rd British F3 Championship

39 Tony Brise - BT38/Montessa Motorcycles
53 Peter Hull - BT38/The Motor Auction London & Derby

Hull was the leading Brabham finishing SIXTH
:cool:

Michael Oliver

2 Jan 2005, 00:02

In reading the articles in Motoring News once more I spotted the 'launch' piece early in February when the car was heralded as 'First MRD Production Monocoque'.

There were certainly some odd things happening with chassis numbers. It all seemed to revolve round the magical Carnet system. It appears that the Jaegermeister BT38 was allocated chassis number -1 because the team got the paperwork in first! :rotate:

It also appears that there were TWO chassis turned out with number 15 on them - Team Bardhal/Motul used by Wilson Fittipaldi until his car was ready and then by Bob Wollek was the first followed by the John Coombs chassis that went to Ed Reeves after Morgan pranged his original chassis (20). :bleh:

From MN I have gleaned the following:

BT38-1 : Jaegermeister
BT38-10 : Motul Rondel Racing
BT38-11 : Motul Rondel Racing
BT38-13 : Elcom
BT38-14 : Motul Rondel Racing
BT38-15 : Motul Rondel Racing (loaned initially to Team Bardahl)
BT38-15(2) : John Coombs then onto Ed Reeves
BT38-17 : Uniacke Chemicals
BT38-18 : ASCA
BT38-19 : Team Viking
BT38-20 : Ed Reeves
BT38-21 : Swiss Marlboro
BT28-22 : Jolly Club
BT38-23 : Felday
BT38-24 : ASCA
BT38-25 : Team Bardahl

The question is which if any of the above ended up with...
a) John Hart in 1977 fitted with a 1.6 BDA ?
b) Paul Edwards also in 1977 fitted with a 1.8 BDE (Edwards also ran the car in 1978) ?
:cool:

Don't think this helps you with your questions at the end of the post but it might fill in some blanks:

"The ex-Graham Hill F2 Brabham BT38 has been acquired by Scottish builder Tom Ogilvy who will enter it for Tony Charnell in Libre events."
Autosport 15/11/73 p7

Also, I am intrigued by BT38-13. Surely it is quite unusual for teams to allocate this number to a chassis and who was Elcom - never heard of them?

Re BT38-12, this appears to have been sold new to Rondel Racing, rather than going to Jackie Pretorius. Pretorious bought it at the end of 1972 when Rondel advertised all four cars. In the report of the Cape South Easter Trophy race held at Killarney on Jan 6th 1973, Autosport states that Pretorious 'with the aid of Clover ice cream money, bought the ex-Pescarolo/Rondel Brabham BT38, which he fitted with a 1900 Smith engine.'

This car was then sold to John Amm, who raced it sporadically in South Africa during 1974 and entered it in events until around March 1975. After that I do not know what became of it.

Re the Peter Westbury (Felday, IIRC) car, this was advertised in Autosport 22/11/73 p57 as follows: 'Peter Westbury's 1972 Brabham BT38, which has remained unused since 1972, is now offered for sale as a rolling chassis without gearbox, making it an ideal basis for a successful hillclimb or Atlantic car. Spare (slightly damaged) tub and some wheels, tyres, etc available if required'.

Chris Townsend

4 Jan 2005, 19:13

This is my version of F2 BT38s

/1 Tate: Graham Hill 1974 Tony Charnell

/11 Rondel: Carlos Reutemann
/12 Rondel: Henri Pescarolo 1973 Jackie Pretorius [ZA] then John Amm (ZA)
/13 Francisci then to Cliff Dawson [CAN] first as Atlantic then Can Am

/14 Rondel: Schenken/Beltoise
/15 Rondel: Bob Wolleck probably 1975 Warren Pauge (SCCA: FB and then Can Am)

/16 Coombs sold to Reeves for Dave Morgan when he bent 38-20 1973 to Tom O'Leary [Having been back to MRE as p/x for a BT40] [The reference to this car as 15 is a typo in MN I think]

/17 Richard Scott then Alan Padgett [HC] AS 14.6.73 p.12
/18 Potocki/Jaussaud
/19 Tom Belsø Still for sale mid '73
/20 Reeves: Dave Morgan Rebuilt after Ring accident Went back to MRE p/x for a BT40
/21 Silvio Moser 1972 Freddy Amweg 1973 Jorg Siegrist
/22 Giancarlo Gagliardi->Tony Trimmer [Rothmans 50000] 1973 David Cole
/23 Peter Westbury for sale Nov 1973 'unused since '72'
/24 Jaussaud/Potocki, 1973 to Opert
/25 Wilson Fittipaldi

/26 Rondel: Carlos Reutemann

/27 Nelson Todd 1973 Tommy Reid?
/28 Tate of Leeds for Chris Meek 1973 Howlings [Croft FL 10.6.73] and to Richard Shardlow [HC] 1974 Alistair Douglas-Osborn Rebuilt by Pilbeam as his first? hillclimb car

Unknowns and later

2-9 are I think FB chassis sold to Opert [two appear with Nick Craw and Bert Hawthorne at Bogota in Feb 72]; other 1972 Atlantics sold to Eligio Siconolfi [CAN] and Hiroshi Fushida. Barry Fox [CAN] has a BT38B

1973 AS 25.1.73 p6 "The remaining three Rondel BT38s have been sold to Fred Opert"
These go on to John Powell, Bill O'Connor and Tom Klausler. Powell writes his off late 73.

I don't know where BT38C F3 sit in this but here are the cars I know in appearance order. Don't think any of these become Atlantics in subsequent years.

"first off" AS Peter Hull
appears with Hull Tony Brise
Debu 16.4 AIRO: Alan Jones
Debut 23.4 AIRO: Brian McGuire
Debut 23.4 AIRO: Alan McCully->Larry Sevitt: Damien Magee
Debut 23.4 Ulf Svensson
Debut Chimay Conny Andersson
Debut 27.5 Vittorio Brambilla
Debut 29.5 Chris O'Brien
Debut 14.7 Ed Patrick
Randy Lewis

Michael Oliver

4 Jan 2005, 21:21

Rafa Reyna

5 Jan 2005, 22:02

On winter of 1973 the spanish driver Eugenio Baturone bought the Brabham BT38/18 to Jaussaud.
Baturone raced the car in the Spanish Hill Climb Championship from april '73 to the end of the year.
After that he sold the Brabham to another sapnish driver, José Teixidó who avec it the years 1974 and 75.

Eugenio Baturone also bought (january 1974) the Brabham BT40/12 (ex Watson) and raced all this year and 1975.

Chris Townsend

6 Jan 2005, 15:24

That's very useful to know, because I had thought that Opert bought both the Potocki/Jaussaud cars.

Rafa - do you know much about Spanish hillclimb championship? I'm trying to find if Miguel Coarasa appears with a March 74B in 1974.

Chris

allenbrown

13 Jan 2005, 18:24

I have another possible fate for BT38/1. The 'Osprey SR-1' 2 litre sportsracer built to Can-Am spec in 1977/78 was based on "an ex-Graham Hill Formula 2 car that a Chicago racer brought over from Europe". Could this be BT38/1 or could it be one of the older Rondel BT36s that he drove in 1971. I'm off to the BT36 thread next...

Allen

allenbrown

19 Feb 2005, 21:24

I have a little more on this Osprey business. The two people who built the Osprey, Jack Finucan and Dan Hartill, bought the "ex-Hill Formula 2 Brabham BT34[sic]" from Chuck Dietrich along with some Lola T294 bodywork and a pair of FVCs. Jack recalls that Dietrich was importing quite a bit of stuff from Europe.

It would have been pretty old by this time. Any of this helpful? From reading the threads, it appears more likely to be a BT38 than a BT36.

Allen

allenbrown

21 Feb 2005, 17:44

I checked with Jack whether he really meant Chuck or could it have been Dean. Turns out it was Dean.

Anyone aware of Dean Dietrich having a F2 Brabham? Chris?

stuartscott

25 Feb 2005, 22:22

Does anyone know anything about Ulf Svensson and where any of his ex F3 cars are now? I used to follow him and Team Mum for Men in the 70s.

sttp199

4 Mar 2005, 16:38

Terry Allard of Denver, CO now owns BT38-12 which came from S Africa several years ago. I Own BT38-16 which was in fact David Morgan's ex F2 car. This car is also in Denver. I also own BT38B-18 which was an FB car originally sold in the USA. I also found a BT38 several years ago with no BT number which was fitted with a Super Vee engine and used for autocrossing. Steve Petersen Sedalia, CO

Chris Townsend

4 Mar 2005, 16:49

Steve

do you have any history connected to your 38B-18? I'm presuming from this designation that the B series had a separate numbering to the F2 cars.
For this Atlantic historian 38Bs are probably even more problematic than BT40s. Very few seem to have survived and they are mixed up with F2 cars sold for Atlantic after a season or two in Europe

Thanks
Chris

sttp199

4 Mar 2005, 21:39

Chris, I have log books from new. The car was driven in SCCA formula B initially. I'd assumed the B designation was for US Formula B. As an aside there is another BT38B car in Denver as well as a F3 BT38. In the chain of ownership on my BT38B lies entries for Steve Fossett, the fellow who just flew a plane nonstop around the earth.

Andrew Fellowes

5 Mar 2005, 00:14

Robert Willis won the MidAm Formula Atlantic Championship in 1980 in a BT38. No idea on the chassis but I throw this in to the melting pot only because its in the MidAm record books incorrectly as a BT36.

Steve Wilkinson

5 Apr 2005, 15:32

The question is which if any of the above ended up with...
a) John Hart in 1977 fitted with a 1.6 BDA ?
b) Paul Edwards also in 1977 fitted with a 1.8 BDE (Edwards also ran the car in 1978) ?
:cool:

Just hit upon the advert for the Brabham BT38 which Paul Edwards ran. In the ad the car is described as being "the ex-Tony Griffiths chassis".

Can anyone point me the chassis number now the previous owner has been identified?

:innocent:

Steve Wilkinson

25 Apr 2005, 13:11

Just hit upon the advert for the Brabham BT38 which Paul Edwards ran. In the ad the car is described as being "the ex-Tony Griffiths chassis".

Can anyone point me the chassis number now the previous owner has been identified?

:innocent:

Thanks to Richard PAge for coming up with the goods!

The Paul Edwards BT38 was Chassis number 17. :winner:

allenbrown

25 Apr 2005, 14:45

I can add another link to BT38/17. In Mason's hillclimb history (p274) it refers to Griffiths "deciding on a limited season with a 1.8 Brabham Ford BT38 which John Hinley had campaigned" for 1976.

Neither Padgett (in 1973) or Hinley (presumably in 1975) get a mention in Mason so I can't say who had the BT38 in 1974.

Mentioned in BT38s in 1974 are ADO in the ex-Shardlow BT38/28 and Tommy Reid's "Brabham-Vega BT38/40". Reid had run a BT38-Vega at Craigantlet in 1972 (p242) - do we know which car this was?

Allen

allenbrown

25 Apr 2005, 14:52

I've just noticed that there's no mention here of Kim Mather's Brabham BT38 in 1974. Another mystery?

Doug Hart

26 Apr 2005, 21:04

Hey there..

My father is John Hart (still going) and when I was little we ran a 38 on the hills, it did have a 1.6 FVA in it.. the car was modified and ran Falcon (i think) nose cone and eventually it was modified heavily to go quicker up the hills.. My brother also drove it.. It was destroyed in a crash at Shelsey Walsh, which newarly destroyed my brother !!! It was then rebuilt around a BT40 tub .. which was much better than the BT38 I was told ..

I will try and find out the chassis number or where it came from.. I think the first Anson F3 car was also a BT38 based car.. not 100% sure .. My father still owns the first ground up Anson.. and very nice too !!

I may be able to post some pictures if I can work that out !!!

Steve Wilkinson

27 Apr 2005, 11:31

Doug Hart

28 Apr 2005, 16:35

Steve..

Spoke to my dad, he cannot recall the chassis number of the BT38 .. but he knows it came from the Isle of Mann.. should narrow it down, he bought it in 74 or 5, not sure when.. (I remember going to see a Chevron B19 BMW before he bought the BT38, but that was far too expensive.. £1900 including the engine and spare wheels ... and a Lotus 30 for £1500.. hmmm)

I can get some pictures of the 38/40 and will do next time I visit .. once it was destroyed everything was transferred onto a BT40 tub, that was apparently a works tub bought from Bernie of course... this had no chassis number on he recalls .. all the parts were the same ..

Interestingly Paul Edwards was a chef .. and a very good one I am told.. I have just realised what car the BT38 that ADO ran was.. it was a highly altered car, Mike Pilbeam did the mods I believe, I remember ADO going up Shelsey in sub 27 I think.. and at the time that was pretty mad to watch .. The wing was so far behind the wheels that it was probably 1 sec behind !!

I remember Tony Griffiths and he has a BT37 formula one car.. it was ex Rollingson and was absolutely like a new pin.. I think Martyn Griffiths may of run teh ADO after he sold it .. But I do not remember Tony G having a BT38.. it is all a long time ago .. I filmed a great super 8 of Prescott in 75 that had all these cars.. just can't find it

Doug

Steve Wilkinson

28 Apr 2005, 17:19

Steve..

Interestingly Paul Edwards was a chef .. and a very good one I am told.. I have just realised what car the BT38 that ADO ran was.. it was a highly altered car, Mike Pilbeam did the mods I believe, I remember ADO going up Shelsey in sub 27 I think.. and at the time that was pretty mad to watch .. The wing was so far behind the wheels that it was probably 1 sec behind !!

Doug

Paul Edwards is still into catering - he's building a NEW hotel in the West Indes!

The ADO BT38 was initially modded by Mike Pilbeam. It was then rebuilt as Pilbeam R15 still with the Ford BD engine. When Pilbeam converted it to run the DFV it became R22. This was then copied and the MP22s were the result.

So now all we have to do is find a Manx BT38! Any offers?
:cool:

allenbrown

29 Apr 2005, 09:48

This is my version of F2 BT38s
...
/23 Peter Westbury for sale Nov 1973 'unused since '72'And here it is today:

http://www.carclassic.com/stock.asp?StockID=100622

I'm sure a polite enquiry would be enough to get its "full history".

Allen

Dan Rear

29 Apr 2005, 11:56

Doug, I think the BT37 was Geoff Rollason, not Rollin(g)son. Is this car out nowadays in TGP or whatever the earlier series is called ? Simon Riley had a BT33 out the same time as Geoff R, I wonder where this one is now ?

allenbrown

29 Apr 2005, 14:15

Yes, the one in TGP is the only survivor: the ex-Rollason, ex-Cyprus, ex-Allen Brown car. Now owned by Hall & Hall, I presume.

Allen

Doug Hart

29 Apr 2005, 20:01

Your right Dan.. it was a big white thing .. so Allen had a go in that beast

Simon Rileys car was the most mad paint scheme ever, so what did Tony Griffiths have.. it was a green a yellow car polished by the army as he was an officer as I remember.. it could of been a 33 ..

My father had a BT18 that was ex rindt before.. Winkelman racing one .. he cut it up and made it faster, then sold it on for £500 as a roller .. wonder where that is now ? I heard it was restored ..

Doug

allenbrown

29 Apr 2005, 20:44

In? Not in. Just near. It was in bits when I was a (part) owner in the mid-90s. Roger Cowman and I worked for years to track it down through a string on increasingly obscure owners until we got to a Cypriot who had lived in a Manchester suburb ten years before. While I made friends at the local Orthodox church, Roger walked up and down the roads around where we'd found him on the electoral role trying to find someone who remembered him. After one long and fruitless evening he decided he'd just fill up his car at the filling station at the end of the road. The man in the kiosk looked vaguely Mediterranean so Roger asked his question one last time. Turns out he and our man were old friends...

That's not always how old F1 cars are found.

Six months later it arrived in six packing crates from Cyprus. The owner had obviously been very good at taking bits apart but not quite so good at putting them together. Everything was there, even the DFV, but it was as dismantled as a car could possible be. Hall & Fowler (as was) did a fantastic job of rebuilding it and it was completely immaculate and amazingly original when I last saw it.

Now you've reminded me of something. Did all the bills get settled? Hmmm...

Allen

Bryan Miller

28 Jul 2005, 11:12

So we can't have Brabham threads slipping away ,

Autosport April 6th 1972 , page 7 report of Thruxton rd. of the F2 European Series and also of the John Player Series .

'' Heading the non graded drivers was championship favourite Carlos Reutemann in his Rondel Brabham BT38 [ BT38-14 ] having arrived back on Friday night from his Brazilian triumph .
Originally this was BT38-11 but the plates were swapped with Claudio Francisci for carnet purposes''

Bryan.

Swiss Toni

10 Oct 2005, 16:01

Chris ,
I have just bought a BT38c / 21 .. Ex Conny Anderson 1972. The history is a little shady as it appears to have been on display in a museum for several years ..One thing confuses me about the car . Althought it is an F3 car and has a Hewland Mk8 fitted it has F2 Brakes and shafts ? I think at sometime it has been used in F2/ Atlantic .
Anyone who can throw some light on the subject ?

Bryan Miller

11 Oct 2005, 00:28

If you could tell us where you are and where the car was located before your purchase it may assist quite a lot.

Bryan.

Jeremy Jackson

26 Oct 2005, 00:14

Andrew,

Amweg did 3 F2 races in 1973 in the ex-Moser BT38-21, according to F1R, so is this BT36 at Monza another typo / error?

allenbrown

11 Mar 2006, 13:36

This post marks the point at which much of the material in this thread was split out from the giant Brabham BT28-29-30-35-36 thread and merged with a pre-existing BT38 thread.

Allen

Steve Wilkinson

17 Mar 2006, 17:30

I've been working through this thread identifying Sprint BT38s.

The ones I can't identify are:

Brabham-Cosworth BDE BT38 (1.8) - Paul Edwards 1977/78
Brabham-Ford BT38 (1.6) - John Hart

Thanks

Allen

The Paul Edwards chassis has been identified as BT38-17 :cool:

Still no nearer to cracking the John Hart chassis number!

allenbrown

17 Mar 2006, 17:40

Yes indeed, some time ago. You were quoting me from Nov 2004!

Allen

Bryan Miller

24 Mar 2006, 02:03

At the HRA web , www.hra-online.de are for sale described as , 1] ex Ulf Svennson BT38 F3 , described as chassis plate on car , however # not given , and also as a partly basket case, 2] ex. Wison Fittipaldi BT38 F2 , plate on car however not given , should be BT38-25.
Also still at www.carclassic.com is poor old BT38-23 , chassis plate in photo. This should be the Uniacke Chemicals car of Richard Scott at Thruxton in April 1972 , thence after that the F.I.R.S.T. car of Peter Westbury.
Bryan.

Bryan Miller

24 Mar 2006, 02:14

www.race-cars.com archive section has BT38-15 as ex Can-am sports racer etc, Chris has notes on that car.
Also listed is BT38C-17 , called out as ex Randy Lewis.
Bryan.

Steve Wilkinson

24 Mar 2006, 17:01

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/swphotographic/images/4-picture3.gif

Tony Griffiths in his BT38 at Harewood in July 1976

:photo:

Andrew Fellowes

6 Dec 2006, 23:16

Also listed is BT38C-17 , called out as ex Randy Lewis. Bryan.
Randy Lewis F3, sponsored by Wrangler Jeans,
then sold to Tom Smith, FT200 installed & converted to FB.

Anuauto

11 Dec 2006, 13:56

From Jimmy Fuller, Antigua, 6 December 2006:
The BT38 he used in 1973 UK F3 was run from a unit at the rear of Frank Williams' premises in Slough and was sold at end of season in UK (with 3 engines-Holbay, Vegantune and Novamotor-,Transit van and trailer) for £1000. No chassis number known.

KIIX Racing

5 Jan 2007, 18:55

Hi
I bought the Brabham BT38 (advertised in www.hra-online.de) ex Wilson Fittipaldi car i am looking for some parts for it also looking for piktures from 1972 can anywone help me
Regards Johan Krondahl

John Turner

6 Jan 2007, 11:12

Welcome KIIX; I'm sure that you will get some help here.

Chris Townsend

4 Feb 2007, 23:41

Steve Wilkinson

5 Feb 2007, 10:54

In discussion with NW USA racer Mike Rocke about his cars we got round to his first FB car, a BT38. Rocke bought the car in Maidenhead in early 1975, but the interesting thing is that he says it had an FVA engine!
There are a lot of BT38s floating around unknown in 1974-75, but does anyone have a hint of someone using one in libre or sprint/hillclimbs with an FVA? Chris

I went to Harewood (August) and Prescott (September) in 1974. There was just the one BT38 entered and that was Alister Douglas-Osborn's car which had a BDG engine installed and went on to become the Pilbeam R22.

:)

Euromontagna

14 Feb 2007, 22:25

1972:Hans Obrist
1973:Baturone, Amweg
1992:Whyte

allenbrown

14 Feb 2007, 22:50

Autosprint lists Obrist's car as a BT36. As it was said to have a FVA engine, I'd be inclined to believe BT36 rather than BT38.

Roman - where is it listed as being a BT38?

Euromontagna

15 Feb 2007, 18:30

Autosprint lists Obrist's car as a BT36. As it was said to have a FVA engine, I'd be inclined to believe BT36 rather than BT38.

Roman - where is it listed as being a BT38?

Only one race (1972 Freiburg - EHC) listed as Brabham BT 36 F3, in 1969 Brabham 1150, in 1970-71 Brabham 1300, so it could be a mistake

Steve Wilkinson

18 Feb 2007, 17:06

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Brabham-BT-38-Formula-2-Racing-car_W0QQitemZ330089665945QQihZ014QQcategoryZ18308QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Under all the bodywork lurks a genuine BT38!

allenbrown

26 Feb 2007, 17:21

Rafa - do you know much about Spanish hillclimb championship? I'm trying to find if Miguel Coarasa appears with a March 74B in 1974.Just spotted this. Coarosa ran a March 722 in 1973 and 1974. Can't remember who it was ex off hand but I'll wade back in and find that.

But in the meantime...

allenbrown

26 Feb 2007, 17:28

This is my version of F2 BT38s

/18 Potocki/Jaussaud
/24 Jaussaud/Potocki, 1973 to Opert

On winter of 1973 the spanish driver Eugenio Baturone bought the Brabham BT38/18 to Jaussaud.
Baturone raced the car in the Spanish Hill Climb Championship from april '73 to the end of the year.
After that he sold the Brabham to another sapnish driver, José Teixidó who avec it the years 1974 and 75.We have some competition for ex-Potocki BT38s. Echappement (May 1976 p72) carries an interview with Michel Lateste and says that he bought the ex-Potocki BT38 for 1974. The car was in pieces when he bought it. He ran it until mid-1975 and then bought the ex-Philippe Hesnault March 742. Can't see it yet in 1976.

Allen

Chris Townsend

26 Feb 2007, 17:41

Allen, that looks fine, we know that Potocki and Jaussaud switched cars - indeed, we can identify the point at which it happened. So both the team's BT38s could reasonably be described as ex Potocki. however, 18 was Jaussaud's car for most of the season [until he bent it badly] and 24 Potocki's [Jaussaud used it to maintain his chase for the championship when Brabham couldn't replace 18 in time, and Potocki drove it bent]
So that suggests that Lateste used 24.

Coarasa told me he did have the 74B for hillclimbs.

Chris

allenbrown

26 Feb 2007, 17:46

So does that mean the Opert thing was a red herring?

Chris Townsend

26 Feb 2007, 20:16

De Adamich drives a BT38 at Caracas that Autosport says is 'ex Jaussaud'. However, given that AS was running a three sentence story off someone else's wire, I wouldn't place too great a reliability on't. He'd got three Rondel BT38s at that point anyway.

Chris

allenbrown

26 Feb 2007, 20:24

If a car was both ex-Potocki and ex-Jaussaud, does it strike you as odd that a French team would later describe it as ex-Potocki rather than ex-Jaussaud?

Just thinking out loud...

Steve Wilkinson

27 Feb 2007, 11:58

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Brabham-BT-38-Formula-2-Racing-car_W0QQitemZ330089665945QQihZ014QQcategoryZ18308QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Under all the bodywork lurks a genuine BT38!

Well it was sold and I know the guy who bought it! He is currently undeceided on what to do (a) restore as is for Speed Events, or (b) restore as a BT38.

I'll keep you posted.

:cool:

Chris Townsend

27 Feb 2007, 19:16

Allen

ex Potocki or ex Jaussaud, depends on how class obsessed they were.
After all Potocki's family goes back a long way in the Franco-polonaise nobility - his grand-dad was a chum of Proust's
Could also, more seriously, be shorthand for Potocki team car

Chris

allenbrown

27 Feb 2007, 21:38

Proust! That explains everything.

Chris Townsend

2 May 2007, 10:28

Jimmy Fuller's BT38 in 1973 F3 is described by Autosport as 'ex Chris O'Brien' AS 13.5.73 p. 22
Don't know chassis number for that one

Chris

ronhouseholder

29 Jun 2007, 06:09

I bought BT38/19 from Tom Foster (Foster Farms, Calif), and in July,1978 sold the roller to Kevin Skinner in B.C.. Tom was the last one to race this chassis as I only used the engine.

Chris Townsend

29 Jun 2007, 09:07

Ron

Welcome! Good to have you on the forum.
Was this the car that had earlier been used by Mike Rocke?

Chris

ronhouseholder

2 Jul 2007, 05:30

I don't know. My interest in buying this car was to get a good engine fast. With some spares it was a good deal. The bodywork is/was blue.

David Irwin

30 Nov 2007, 01:50

Time to wake up BT38 listers.

ADD:

BT38-12 F2

'72 Rondel Motul car Bob Wollek & Henri Pescarolo
'73 Jackie Pretorius S. Africa
'74-'75 John Amm S. Africa
????
'97-'98 Thomas Koch

sold to present owner Terry Allard, Colorado

may be available after restoration completed.

David Irwin
Evergreen, CO
irwin_eng(at)hotmail.com

davyboy

23 Jan 2008, 10:16

On

racecarsdirect.com (http://www.racecarsdirect.com/viewlisting.php?view=15015)

Today.

Alan Brown

18 Feb 2008, 10:24

Chris Townsend

21 Feb 2008, 18:37

In the MN report (22-12-77) on the above, it was said that Eddie Heasells' BT38C is thought to be Peter Hull's 1973 F3 car. It was fitted with a Delta nose. Another Brabham at the test day was Mike Whatley's BT21 with 743 bodywork. This was said to be ex Alan Joy and Graham Bowskill in Monoposto Formula.

This might help with linking cars

Many thanks Alan. Whatley's BT21 was very likely the ex Tony Dean BT15 [F3.20.65]
Goes to Barrie Maskell, 1966-68 then Keith Wright [1969] Alan Joy has it 1970 and then Bowskill 71-74 before Whatley gets it.

Chris

IHB33

22 Feb 2008, 01:57

Just started reading this thread - good to see the old 38 is still remembered.

I worked for Graham Hill in 1972 - his BT38 was run by KAYDON Racing - Dave Kaylor and Peter Donnelly - ( both ex-Brabham) out of an old stables in Cobham, Surrey and then out of Mo Gomm's workshops in Old Woking - alongside Tom Belso's BT38, run by Brian Lewis under the Team Viking banner. and various other occasional visitors, inc Wilson Fittipaldi's BT38, ( run by Richard Divilla ) and Dave Brodie's "Run Baby Run" Escort .

Delivery of the BT38 was delayed and Graham borrowed his 1971 car ( BT36 - Rondel Racing) back from Chris Meek - Tate of Leeds - for the Thruxton Easter meeting which he won. That car was in Tate of Leeds colours - the BT38 ran as Jagermeister all year. ( and the ornate script logos were hand-painted - the circular ones - of a Stags head - were decals)

The first BT38 chassis he had was damaged in a startline accident at Crystal Palace - and the car was rebuilt around a new tub - the old tub was repaired and returned to the team, I think after we returned from Imola. It was not used again during the season and I left before the car was sold so I don't know what happened to it.

He won the Monza lottery in the rebuilt car and just after that was when I joined the team. It is possible the new chassis was the one without a plate as it was a spare purchased ( although knowing GH, probably on extended loan!) from the Brabham factory in Addlestone.
As we only had the one car we did not need to be "flexible" with chassis numbers for Customs Carnet purposes - so no "velcro" chassis plate required.

The car ran in 1972 with 2 engines a Felday unit - which was I believe almost 2 litres and a Racing Services ( Ken Britten, then based in Twickenham) unit - around 1800 cc. The RS engine was less powerful but more reliable, the Felday was prone to spewing oil out everywhere ( ask John Surtees @ Imola - he finished the race with most of GH's oil in his face!).

At the end of 1972 the car was being prepared to go to South America for the end of season Temporada Series - and hopefully be sold there - but the Shadow F1 project intervened and the plans were cancelled.

This was last F2 car Graham Hill drove I think and the only Monocoque.

I would like to know where the car went - I have seen comments that it might have ended up as a Can-Am car ?.

Ian.

IHB33

22 Feb 2008, 02:55

Hi

Just to correct myself - Hill won the 71 Easter weekend race @ Thruxton in the BT36 - not '72. - Senility strikes!

Ian

Andrew Fellowes

22 Feb 2008, 03:11

Ian, Hill ran 36-1 at Hockenheim too, by then painted in Jagermeister colours, I have two photos from that weekend, I had assumed they were all decals, lot of work there.
The result of C-P accident with the BT38 is on DVD, (the name of which escapes me at the moment!)

Andrew

Todd Willing

22 Feb 2008, 12:30

Steve Wilkinson

22 Feb 2008, 13:45

http://photos-559.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-sf2p/v170/125/90/826713559/n826713559_300720_2755.jpg

Graham Hill rounds Lodge Corner

:photo:

IHB33

22 Feb 2008, 16:04

Steve - Thank you for the photograph - that brings back some happy memories.

I am pleased to see that my all hard work in polishing the wheels shows up well in the photo.! Dave Kaylor (and GH) was very hot on the car looking smart and it always was.

That weekend @ Oulton Park I was on "double-duty" - helping Brian Lewis on Tom Belso's car.

I seem to remember that I helped Brian change an engine in the Oulton Park paddock - just lifted it out and put the new one in - no hoist, nothing, and we were just on the muddy grass - how things have changed !.

We must have missed something as Tom Belso only lasted 1 lap !.8-((

IHB33

22 Feb 2008, 16:09

Is that DVD still available ? - F2 Heroes ?

The accident at C-P was that with Gerry Birrell ?? - I think that GH may have been slow off the line - the car had had a fuel filter collapse in practice or warm-up and there was a lot of rubbish in the fuel system and they had been frantically cleaning it out before the race.

IHB33

8 Mar 2008, 01:49

The Hill BT38/1 was fitted with a wide nose and front radiator during '72 - I am not sure if that was for aerodynamics or cooling reasons ( or just the fashion at the time ) and cannot remember if it raced in that form - would have been the Sept Salzburg round or the October Hockenheim.
I think he was 4th in Austria and 5th in Germany.

Has anyone seen any photographs from those races. 8-)

Steve Wilkinson

8 Mar 2008, 11:28

http://photos-559.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-sf2p/v170/125/90/826713559/n826713559_300720_2755.jpg

The Above was taken on the 16th September at Oulton Park, so the wide nose hadn't put in appearance at this point.

:photo:

Andrew Fellowes

9 Mar 2008, 07:53

If it was the same design as the nose that Hill used towards the end of '71 the answer was ground effects though they didn't realise it at the time.
I spoke to Neil Trundle a couple of years ago and I mentioned that they were darn heavy, did they work? Yes was the reply, have a look underneath and you will see why.
Clearly an effective low pressure area.
Andrew

Todd Willing

9 Mar 2008, 12:15

davyboy

9 Mar 2008, 16:07

What an amazing site and amazing photos. Thanks so much for posting the link to it here for us.

Todd Willing

9 Mar 2008, 23:46

[quote=IHB33]Is that DVD still available ? - F2 Heroes ?

http://www.qv500.com/onboard/hales.php

Scroll down the page a bit. It appears to be still available here.

Todd

IHB33

31 May 2008, 21:05

Back to my "nose" fetish again - I have found a picture in John Tipler's book - Graham Hill- Master of Motorsport - page 181 if I remember correctly - showing the BT38 at Rouen in June '72 with a nose very similar to the BT36 nose - with an opening for a front radiator.
On Jonathan Greaves' site - the car is at Hockenheim in October '72 and has a "wide nose" but has reverted to side radiators.

Ian

Chris Townsend

27 Jul 2008, 15:30

allenbrown

27 Jul 2008, 17:26

Dean Dietrich makes more sense than Chuck. Thanks Chris.

I don't have any results for Dean Dietrich before the start of the 1977 Can-Am season (he had a Lola T292). Do you know if he was racing a Brabham in SCCA before then?

Chris Townsend

27 Jul 2008, 19:20

I don't have any records of Dean Dietrich racing this car, but then my 1975 SCCA results are incomplete. Chuck Dietrich shows up quite a bit, but that was a BT38B that he'd had for a few years.
I think Dean D may have just traded the car on.

allenbrown

27 Jul 2008, 21:11

It had a BDA Hart in it. Does that make sense with what you know of the history of BT38/1?

Chris Townsend

27 Jul 2008, 22:59

Hill ran a Racing Services BD series, but no idea of what Charnell had in the back.
However, process of elimination suggests that it was the BT38...

Mark Witherspoon

6 Aug 2008, 12:57

Guys - with fear and trepidation, I'm entering this discussion. I have in my workshop a BT38 in many, many pieces - with chassis number 41. The hard work starts here - although I'm failry certain it's complete - minus engine and box. Any thoughts on a good source of detailed photos, drawings?

Cheers

Mark

allenbrown

6 Aug 2008, 16:41

Welcome Mark. What do you know of your car's history?

Allen

Chris Townsend

6 Aug 2008, 23:49

Welcome Mark

Do you have a photo of the plate? 41 would completely transform our ideas of how many BT38s were built

Chris

Mark Witherspoon

7 Aug 2008, 21:46

Well that's what I though - at first and then caught this from a while back on the Brabham Owners site http://www.nvo.com/brabhams -
Subject BT38s Nos 37 & 38
http://www.nvo.com/brabhams/pages/images/trans_pix.gif
Date Sat Jun 26 2004 16:10 http://www.nvo.com/brabhams/pages/images/trans_pix.gif
Author Mark Barton http://www.nvo.com/brabhams/pages/images/trans_pix.gif

http://www.nvo.com/brabhams/pages/images/trans_pix.gifhttp://www.nvo.com/brabhams/pages/images/trans_pix.gifI have got two formula 3 brabhams and am trying to trace the history of them.
Believe one of them was run by Vittorio Brambilla. They were last run in anger in anout 1996 in HSCC Classic Formula 3 by David Proctor, who won the series with them.
Other than a front stubaxle that has picked up on the bearing, both cars are now "on the button". One was out at Oulton Park last year for the Gold Cup, watched by none other than Black Jack. Shame I put it in the tyre wall!
So my question would be where are 39 & 40!

I believe that 41 came out of Italy some years ago, was stripped and prepared - but never rebuilt.

Any thoughts on history would be welcome. I've got some hand drawings of various suspension parts that I will scan soon.

Mark

Chris Townsend

8 Aug 2008, 00:32

Mark

Vittorio Brambilla's BT38C was chassis 21, later used in 1972 by Alberto Colombo and perhaps sold to Carlo Giorgio for 1973
Chassis number is given in Autosprint's seasonal survey for 1972 Italian F3 season

I believe that only 14 BT38Cs were built and that the number sequence started at 11 with Peter Hull's car, so B38C-25 would be the highest build number.
It may be that the 41 refers to the tub number rather than the car itself.
BT38C-17 [Randy Lewis's car] had tub AM72/43 but there is no correllation between tub number and chassis number, so 41 would not necessarily equate to 38C-15.

Only three BT38Cs were sold to Italy as far as I can see: 21 to Brambilla; 22 to Vittorio Venturi and one other, chassis number unknown, to Alessandro Guidetti. However, I've only got 13 names against new BT38Cs and as I said, there were probably 14 built, so there may have been one more.

Chris