Brabham BT23

I have been to Goulburn , and returned with another Brabham.F2-8-65 , BT23B-1 according to David McKinney.Strange numbers on LHS. rear of frame.

To my knowledge BT23 were not built by Arch Motors, they were built by Racing Fabrications, thus the stamped number in the frame begins with 'RF'.

Is this the right place to ask about BT23C-11? Steve Mills has been in touch with me asking what became of her. He was with Cullen when the car was doing F2 events in 1970. For some reason, he can still rememebr the chassis number.

Anyone know?

Allen

I have the 1990 owner as Mark Raymond (or Rayment) on this side of the Irish Sea

In January 1982 Autosport we have for sale by Northdown Racing of Ripley, Surrey, BT23C-2 [the ex Gethin/Don Godden car last seen for sale by Low Cost Racing in A/S in March 1973, and BT23-1, last seen being raced in Ireland by Maurice Stirling in 1973.

Originally posted by Chris Townsend
and BT23-1, last seen being raced in Ireland by Maurice Stirling in 1973.

Chris

I bought BT23-1 from Jon Bradburn in late 84. He drove it a couple of times in HSCC events painted white, a colour he liked. Bradburn & Wedge were on the brink of collapse thanks to a massive loan from the bank to expand their business. -a time when the banks were throwing the stuff around. I see he has quite a few cars for sale these days!

Looking forward to the BT23s. I know that 23-8 [built with an Alfa engine for Galli] was still extant in Italy a year or two back.

Chris

OK, so who is going to start the BT23's? I know zilch apart from owning BT23-1 in 1985, ex Sir Jack, Tommy Reid and still in the UK, -?

ok Andrew, Bryan et al, shoot holes, add things to this!

BT23

1: Works car 1967 for Brabham. Sold to Tommy Reid and retained to 1970. Then Walter Kinnear. To Nelson Todd 1971. Maurice Stirling 1973.

2: Works car 1967 for Hulme and Gardner.1969 Picchio Rosso for Enzo Corti. 1970 Vittorio Brambilla

3: Works car 1967 for Gardner. 1968: Xavier Perrot. Destroyed in accident at Nurburgring? !969 by Perrot

4: Winkelmann 1967 for Rees. 1968 Walter Habbeger. 1969 Bruno Frey [this number sometimes ascribed to Corti's car which was given the wrong plate at a rebuild]

5: Winkelmann 1967 for Rindt and van Lennep. Taken by Hulme to 1968 Tasman and written off.

6: Witley Racing Syndicate 1967 for Robin Widdows. this car or chassis 9 to Canada 1968 for Dave Webster.

7: Mitter, 1967. to Norbert Linderman 1968, then Helmut Gall 1970, destroyed in accident

8: Nanni Galli 1967 with Alfa engine. 1968 Giorgio Pianta. 1969: Etienne Vigoureux as F3 car.

9: David Bridges for Brian Redman. This car or 6 to Canada in 1968.

23C

1: Works car 1967 for Brabham/Gardner. 1968: Frank Williams for Piko Troberg/Harry Stiller [as F3]/Piers Courage/Laurence Brownlie. 1969: Williams - Graham McRae/Alistair Walker. 1970: Walter Kinnear [described as ex Courage/Walker]

2: Lythgoe: Gethin 1968. 1969 Whitmore for Don Godden. For sale by Low Cost Racing 1.3.73.

3 Not known

4: Chris Lambert. ?Destroyed in Lambert's accident at Zandvoort 68

5: Winkelmann 1968 for Rindt. 1969: Ec. Ecosse: Graham Birrell
1973: Joe Applegarth

6: Max Moseley 1968. 1969: Peter Parnell [ZA]; 1970: Arnold Charlton

7: Williams 1968 for Courage. 1969: Roly Levis

8: 1968: Kurt Ahrens. 1969-70 Bernd Terbeck. 1977. Bill Morris

9: 1968: Church Farm Racing for Bell, 1968-9 Laurence Brownlie

10: 1968: Malcolm Payne. 1969 Garth McGilliwie [ZA] 1970 Tony Dean
1971: Rod Pickering. 1972: Bob Howlings. 1973: Bob Snelson

11: Winkelmann 1968 for Rees and Mitter. 1969: Bill Ivy, then to Brian Cullen after Ivy's bike crash. Kept by Cullen until end 71

12: Williams 1968 for Manfredini. 1969: Williams for Guthrie then sold to Bob Gerard for Widdows/Hart. 1970: Gerry Tyzack. 1971: Maybe Robin Darlington

13 Not built

14: Williams for Carlos Piaretti in Temporada

15: Eduardo Copello in Temporada

16: Williams for Juan Manuel Bordeu in Temporada. 1969: Williams for Courage and Ickx, then sold to Alistair Walker. 1970: Walker then sold to Gagliardi. 1971: Perhaps the Marcello Gallo BT23C running as F3 in 1971

17: Jorge Cuperio in Temporada. 1969: Perrot replacing w/o 23. 1970 Baron Robertson and 1971 then Kelvin Cameron . Have my doubts about the NZ thing

Chris

I think the Baron Roberston/Kelvin Cameron BT23C was misread. Pretty sure it was BT23C/7, not 17.

Allen

I'll go through this when I get home
In the meantime:
Baron Robertson's first BT23C was #7, ex-Levis. This was badly damaged and Robertson imported a replacement car, which had a plate identifying it as #17 (though whether it was the ex-Cupeiro 17 I wouldn't like to say....) This was the car which passed on to Kelvin Cameron etc
The original car (7) was meanwhile straightened out by Robertson's mechanic, Phil Harris, and adapted for FF1600.
Both cars raced in NZ at the same time
I think this is the same Phil Harris who still races Brabhams in North American historics (or did a few years ago)

BT23
•Hulme, as you say, started the Tasman series with #5, which was written off at Pukekohe. His replacement car was No.4, and was described at the time as his 1967 works mount, which had been sold to an unnamed American (though listed by F1R and you as #2). The question is, did Scuderia Picchio-Rossi get the ex-Tasman car for Corti, or was the #2 they got (and called 4) another car?
The unnamed American got a car (number unknown) which had been shipped to Mike Champion in Australia
•I have the Mitter/Werner Lindermann etc car as 9 (though F1R says 7). I don’t have anyone for 7, but nor do I have a number for the Bridges/Redman car)

BT23C
•I have Howlings racing #1 in 1970. I wonder if the Kinnear reference (by others as well as you) is to BT23-1, not BT23C-1?
•I have #4 with Corti in 1969 (a possible confusion with BT23/4 - or BT23/2!)
•I have the South African cars the other way around (6 with McGillwie 1969, then Arnold Charlton, and 10 with Parnell then returning to the UK)
•7 came back to the UK in the late 1980s. The NZ 17 (whatever it really was) was destroyed by fire about 1978
•Brownlie certainly never had BT23C/9 (except perhaps on paper)
•I have Tyack using #12 in hillclimbs in 1971 as well as 1970

I will have to have a few goes at this.

BT23's 1st.

BT23-1 , M.R.D. RF5 , FVA 7021, Jack Brabham 1967.
1968 , Irish Racing Cars , Tommy Reid with a Ford Twin -cam.
1969, as above Tommy Reid.
1970, as above , but now with FVA.

BT23-2,RF6, FVA 7012, M.R.D. Hulme , then apparently to Walter Habegger , but then borrowed/rented back by Hulme to finish the Tasman with after his big accident in BT23-5 in early 1968, thence back to Europe to Scuderia Piicchio Rosso [ Enzo Corti ] carries chassis number 23-4 scratched on chassis .
1969 Enzo Corti .
1970 Vittorio Brambilla.

BT23-3, M.R.D. RF8 FVA 7003 , Gardner 1967.
1968 , Xavier Perrot.
1969, Perrot written off in non F2 race.

BT23-4, Winkleman/Rees FVA 7008 .
1968 Walter Habegger Racing.
1969, Bruno Frey.

BT23-5, Winkleman / Rindt, 1967
1968 , Hulme in Tasman untill serious accident, then rented / borrowed BT23-2,
Damaged BT23-5 sold to Feo Stanton in N.Z. and sent to Bob Brittan / Rennmax in Australia for rebuild, typically Bob made a jig [ subsequently used for Mildren / Rennmax BN3 / etc. cars and sent a new car known as the Rorstan Porsche bach to N.Z. containing all the usable BT23-5 bits , this car used by Brian Fallon until his Fatal accident .
Meanwhile back in OZ , Bob Rebuilt the original frame as a project for Warren Leach as a Formula Ford , using Rennmax uprights etc, the car was repossed by Bob Brittan for , I believe non payment , and the car then sold to Graham Hepburn of Talbingo N.S.W. it then ended up with Denis Lupton of Melbourne circa 1981.
Meanwhile back in N.Z. the Falloon car with its apparently rare 4 cam eng still remaining somehow found its way to Melbourne Porsche Distributor Alan Hamilton who had acquired the car for the eng.and gearbox for a restoration .
The remains , i.e. rolling chassis then went to Les Sargent , then to Denis Lupton , who now had both collections of bits , a chinese deal evolved [ these dealings famous in OZ ] and George Goodare of Sydney swapped a BT15 to Lupton for the collection of BT23-5 in December 1983, where upon a major rebuild commenced and the car is still in the hands of George Goodare, after having compainged the car for many years complete with correct FVA / FT200 etc, and having recast new uprights etc. The car has not been used for some time now.

BT23-6 , Robbin Widdows .1967 , end 67 sold to Mitsubishi Motors .
I see a car advising this chassis number for sale in the U.S.A now.


Bryan.

Part 2 .

Further to above on BT23-6 FVA 7027.
Prob. purchased by Mitsubishi , to produce the Colt F2 cars and eng. for S.E.Asia .

BT23-7, 1967 Gerhard Mitter , with a note carrying Chassis plate BT23-9.
1968 Werner Linderman.
1969, Linderman / Montan Racing.
1970, Montan Racing, Helmut Galli.

BT23-8, Nanni Galli , Alfa Romeo .
1968, Giorgio Pianta , F2 4 Valve t/c GTA eng.
end of 1968 to Albert Poon at Macao.

BT23-9, David Bridges [ Brian Redman ] Frank Williams as F3 [ Harry Stiller ] carrying ch.pl. BT23-8.
By 1969 Etienne Vigoreux as an F3.

BT23C-1,

M.R.D. Brabham/ Gardner, 1967 August.
1968 March Frank Williams Racing ,Troberg/Courage/Brownlie/McRae.
1969, Paul Watson Racing , McRae.
Advertised by Bob Howlings Motor Sport May 1970 / p.516.
Sold to Rodney Seow , Singapore, 850.00 U.K. pounds less eng. and gearbox.
Sold to Mike Truter , Singapore 1980.
Sold To Brian Wilson Australia , Jan 1983.

This car and BT23-5 both rebuilt by George Goodare in Sydney.

Brian Wilson retains car to this day , and uses it all the time in historic, and despite having BT5 SC-2-63 and BT24-1 , this car is his favourite.

So that looks like BT23C-1 was a mistake for Walter Kinnear , and was his usual BT23-1.

More later. Bryan.

The memory chip just spluttered into life, and remembered that initially the Rorstan Porsche was Climax 2.5 / 2.7 FPF powered, prior to the Porsche instalation.
fiss-whir- splutter-=*^%$_+__---

Bryan
I'm rushing of to Monaco so will have a look at your BT23/23C list in more detail when I get back
However, the belief in NZ at the time was that the Rorstan-Porsche (later renamed Stanton-Porsche) used a different Bob Brittan frame from the earlier (BT23-based) Rorstan-Climax
Any comment?

David, some people do it hard don't they, off to Monaco. Huh.

Possibly because it was first fitted with the Climax is the only reason I can think of, I can see a telephone calling coming up to Britto.

Regards Bryan.

"Both cars raced in NZ at the same time
I think this is the same Phil Harris who still races Brabhams in North American historics (or did a few years ago) "

Pretty sure this is same Phil Harris and he goes quite quickly in just about anything he drives. And to boot, he has run a BT23 FVA/C for years. When I think of Phil, I think of him in that blue Brabham. I'll try to get the number off it and any history.

Roger

Roger,

Yes it is the same Phil Harris, owner/principal at Truesports in your state .
Phil and Gary Simkin [ who does my some of my Hewland rebuilds ]used to be with VDS Racing in the Tasman and U.S series with Warwick Brown, Teddy Pilette Geoff Brabham etc.

Phil found and restored BT23C-16 , and I think still has it , the body panels were supplied by George Goodare from over here.
Phil also rebuilt a 2nd. BT23C, BT23C-7 for Bobby Rahal, which he still has as far as I know.

Bryan.

I am told BT23C-7 was sold last year after a mega rebuild for Rahal. In Frank Williams colours it was quite superb and a lot of car for a reputed $80,000 US.

Bryan,

Yes and the same Phil Harris responsible for introducing the two of us. I was certain it was same person, I just didn't phrase it that way and I didn't know how this list would take mentioning his business. Phil also has at least one March now, a 78 FA I believe.

I also know of the tie in with Gary Simkin at VDS. I have an old magazine article (I think SCCA "Sports Car") of them and a much younger looking Steve and Christeen Horn who were also at VDS. Phil must have come to Columbus w/ the Horns to be at Truesports, back when Jim was still alive and Rahal was just the driver.

I also know the fellow who tends Rahal's toy car collection and I can make sure 23C-7 is truely gone.

Roger

it is very interesting you mentioned PHIL HARRIS& GARY SIMKIN [ex VDS] . There was another AUSSIE, BOB MILLS, whom worked for VDS[ midland TEXAS] under FRANS WEISS& JIM HALL, he having worked here for the late GARY COOPER[ ELFIN SPORTS CARS] with BOB still in the US having married an american lass. regards PIERRE.

If anyone does get in touch with Phil Harris please could they remember to ask about that March 78B!!

Bryan

Just to say that the only time I use an F1R chassis number these days is if it's confirmed by contemporary periodical report. All of my records here are derived from MN and AS first.

23C-1. I think this car was raced as F3 by Stiller. Several reports describe it as ex Troberg/Stiller when McRae uses it. Given your comment on 23-9 [carrying the plate from 8 just to confuse matters!] did Stiller [or Williams for him] actually use more than one 23 or 23C as F3. My reason for asking comes from the 1969 F3 season.
Claudio Francisci in Italy is meant to get a very early BT28 but because of the delay at Brabhams he uses what is described as a BT21. BUT... I just came across a report that said it was a Williams supplied ex F2 chassis - so some kind of BT23 since it can't be either of the ex Lambert cars. Nor can it be the Vigoureux BT23, since he's using that at the same time.

Kinnear has two cars I think - though accept 23C-1 is problematic. He sells one in 1971 but keeps the other, and it is described as 'ex Walker and Courage' which is clearly not 23-1, but could, I suppose be 16, which was also used by both.

On the basis of the 1968 histories of the BT23s, what on earth was teh Dave Webster car? Of the two candidates I figured, we have one still in Europe and the other in Japan.

Chris

Chris,

Noted your remarks re. F1R , I was beavering away on BT23'S and C's ready to start a new thread when along comes young Andrew Fellowes and sticks it in with my beloved BT29/30 etc. (But not any longer! - JT)

Your Williams supplied BT21 ?? doesn't have to be a BT23 , could be an old BT18 , BT21 fitted with the BT23 mag front uprights etc . and sent out to party on , remember Frank was dealing in these cars , and cobbling up a bitsa would not be a problem , not that I am suggesting it did happen , just could have.

Will really start trolling again on these soon ,via Autosport.
I need enlightenment on the Dave Webster car.
Bryan.

Chris

Can you tell us more about Dave Webster? I also have Bill Gubelmann appearing in a BT23 late in 1968 but I'm sure it must have been his usual BT21. Could Webster's BT23 be a misprint?

Allen

Come on young Bryan, 25 pages, 368 replies that only leaves 55 more pages and another 2,819 replies and you will catch up with the Amon thread on TNF.

No ambition, you Sydneysiders have it too easy.

As Andrew seems to think we are going to eclipse the Amon thread on TNF we had better get on with it.

Some interesting notes from Autosport .

7-6-68, p.34 states Stiller has a BT23C F3.
26-7--68 p34 states Stiller's BT23 has been sold. ??????
Are we talking 2 x cars already or misprint.???

15-11-68 p4 states Lythgoe's BT23C to George Pitt , if this is BT23C-2 by 13-6-69 it has moved to Don Godden as Chris advises.

Also a very interesting piece in the Brabham article Autosport 15-11-1968 advises that the Lythgoe BT23C which Peter Gethin raced in F2 this season is a re-converted FB chassis as per BT23G and H models.

The three BT23B cars went to Mike Hawley and this car only had integral water rails as it was built as a short distance hillclimb car , whereas the other two cars for John Bridges and Charles Vogele had external water rails.

In view of David McKinney advising earlier re. the ex Graham Hill F2-8-65 being converted at the factory for Mildren's 2.5 Climax and being allocated BT23B-1 ? do we have a handle on any BT23B numbers.?

Sorry but my Autosports in 1967 number 1 x .
1968 about 20 issues ,
so I get to use a lot of question marks.

27-6-69, Etienne Vigouroux as an F3 with an F2 BT23 chassis, and 4-7-69 , p10 this car is called out as a Jolly Club/Oliver Speight Racing car.

Francisci's car is described as an F2 chassis supplied by Frank Williams , BUT are we talking just a BT23 chassis as opposed to a complete entity , may have been a spare chassis lying around at Frank Williams and was turned into an F3 with donor F3 components , for sure if you were going to be serious , no way could you run an FT200 , too heavy , and 5 speed was not allowed in F3.Yes I fully realise you can convert an FT to 4 speed , but the weight penalty would kill you.

BT23C for sale by Creasy Hotels Racing 13-11-1969 p.50 , described as lap record holder Silverstone 69 cars Brabham BT23C $1000.00 [ not my typo this time ]

Report at Pukekoe that after test run by Roly Levis his BT23C handed over to Baron Robertson 18-12-1969 p.13.

BT23B 1-8-1969 Jack Smith.
BT23B ex Mike Hawley car to Gray and Angus Mickel for Hillclimbing.

Off into 1970 Autosports next.

Bryan.

The Roly Levis test run also stated that the test was after the rebuild.
Bryan.

Brian

The Vigooreux F3 car is described in 1969 as ex Galli

This had always led me to think it was chassis 8, ex Nanni Galli 1967

But, it could easily have been the ex Redman chassis 9 which goes F3 with Stiller and then FRANCO Galli in March 1968.

Dave Webster used a BT23 FB at the SCCA Finals in Nov. 68 This was at Riverside so I guess he could be the 'wealthy Californian'. Whatever it is, the Webster car is pretty much the only candidate for the BT23 used in FB by Ted Thomas in 1970. [Unless that's a misprinted 21!]

The Jack Smith BT23B owned by Goerge Pitt. Chassis 3. Used by Lanfranchi at Race of Champions 1969. Smith killed in it 1969.

Gubelmann's late 68 BT23 is a '23F' and in '69 he has one of two 23Gs. Was one of these the 23F rebuilt?

Chris

Chris,

I would be inclined to believe the Webster car was either a BT23G or F , as they were built to suit the U.S.A. market.

This then doesn't give you a problem with the 2 candidates which were other places.

I had George Pitt with a BT23B , but was not aware that Jack Smith had driven the car, very sad.

BT23B-2 is for sale at the moment and advising it is the ex. Mike Hawley car.

It makes sense that the ex. Vigoroux car went to Franco Galli , both in F3 guise, but as I have said elsewhere common sense doesn't work sometimes in old racing cars.

Does anybody have a BT23B-4 listing out there.???

Bryan.

Was there a BT23B-4?
I make it four BT23Bs, but am by no means certain of their numbers:
i) The Mildren/Gardner car - I reckon BT23B-1
ii) The Pitt/Smith car - I reckon BT23B-2, other say 1
iii) The Vögele hillclimb car - I have no number for this car, others say 2
iv) The Hawley hillclimb car - I say BT23B-3, the owner apparently says 2. Or has he got one of the other claimants, and not the Hawley car at all?

The Philip Walker BT23B currently for sale with Legends Racing and painted in Charles Vögele colours is BT23B2.
What is sure is that the car had spent many years in the ownership of Jean-Louis Gillet who had bought the car from Willy Widar who had himself found the car in Switzerland.
Gillet sold the car to John Harper who sold it to Walker.

Hereafter is the chassis plate of the car while owned by Gillet:

Same car while owned by Gillet:

Another one

Here's the missing picture

One more.

After restoration.

BT23B Mike Hawley Prescott July 1967 2.0 litre FPF
Copyright Ted Walker.

Originally posted by phdm
Hereafter is the chassis plate of the car while owned by Gillet:
Looks fairly conclusive!

Ted and I thought we'd sorted out the BT23Bs 20 years ago but maybe we hadn't. I've just gone back to my early-1980s card index and assembled this:

Brabham BT23B/1

Mike Hawley; completed June 1967 (See Autosport 16 Jun 1967 p973). Bought by Bob Rose (AS 19 Jul 1968 p37). Then the Mickels (AS 4 Apr 1969 p37). Advertised AS 22 Oct 1970 p59 and that's all I have.

Brabham BT23B/3

Built Sept 1967 "believed last one of the specially built Tasman F1 machines. 2 short successful races only" - George Pitt AS 8 Dec 1967 p1011. The races would be the Gold Cup and an Oulton libre (AS 6 Oct 1967 p587). Then Racing Preparations for Tony Lanfranchi RoC 1968. Later JD Lewis in ex-RP BT23B AS 13 Sep 1968 p5. Then Jack Smith for Roy Pike (AS 8 Aug 1969, 29 Aug 1969 - one of which mentions it's ex-Pitt, ex-RP). Then Autosport review of club racing (12 Feb 1970 p23) says Smith sold his BT23B to his homeland for the Canadian GP. Raced by Cordts from time-to-time in Canadian FA? That's all I have on this one.

My notes don't say why I'm so sure about the chassis numbers, but it does leave the Vögele car as BT23B/2.

Allen

Didn't Smith's car return to the UK, where it killed him in 1972 (and was supposedly written off)?

Can we do anything with the Autosport report I listed earlier , 15-11-1968 , which states Frank Lythgoe's BT23C sold to G. Pitt. page 4 .

Chris advised this car to Don Godden , thence for sale Low Cost Racing, with no ref. to Pitt.

Lythgoes car was BT23C-2.

As usual the plot thickens , rather than becoming clearer,

Allen , now you mention it , I also recall that ref. to Canadian John Cordts.

Bryan.

Just surfing, I remember a BT35 in West Aus raced by Dominic Mannello & true to his heritage it ran a Fiat twin cam. This was mid 70s.

Cavvy,

The Dominic Mannello car is a BT35/36 bodied rebuild of the ex Fred Wheelhouse BT23 type Jane /Repco car from Victoria , car is now owned ,still in Western Australia by Neil McCrudden.

Bryan Miller.

Bryan

Is this the car that ran as the Jane-Repco in 2.5-litre priod - about 1968?

Allen

Bryan
re the Mannello BT35
Please explain the BT23 type Jane Repco - did the Jane organisation build it?
Out of interest how many cars does Neil McCrudden have?

Allen, Yes , to the best of my knowledge , built up by Jane team , chassis by Bob Brittan and used some components from the ex Sir Jack Tasman car BT23E-1 , which had been purchased after the Tasman , very triangular fuel tanks, then ended up in Western Australia , and after some time re-bodied to make more modern appearance with BT35/6 panels.

Neil McCrudden has a few cars that I am aware of.

Bryan.

Bryan,
I've been trying to follow the Mannello BT35 - Jane car. From what I can glean the Jane car followed the John Harvey crash at Bathurst in 1968, is this right. Was it built in the John Sawyer era? What happened to the ex Sir Jack chassis. Do you regard the Mannello car as a Brabham?

Regards

Cavvy.

The Manello car is definately NOT a Brabham.
The ex Sir Jack Brabham car was all pieced back together with a Repco 2.5 litre and sold circa late 198o's to the U.S.A. as far as I know to Mr. Art Valdez, via a Melbourne person , I did not see the car , and have no intimitate knowledge of the rebuild.

Bryan.

I've been working through this thread identifying BT23 Sprint Brabhams
The one I can't identify is:

Brabham-Ford BT23C (1.6) - Maurice Ogier once in 1972

The BT23C should fit into our histories but I haven't been able to connect it.

Allen

The following is a list of Brabham BT23 drivers in the aforementioned championship:

1970
Gray & Agness Mickel in the ex-Hawley BT23B

1973
Bob Snelson in a BT23C

This post marks the point at which an assortment of BT23 material was split out of the giant Brabham BT28-29-30-35-36 thread into its own thread.

Allen

again I've only done a very quick flip thru, but we don't seem to have these;

11/11/71 A/S p.46 BT23C ex Bob Gerrard, Traco Chev, DG300 (#C12?)
15/3/73 A/S p.59 BT23C ex Alister Walker, John Blades, Whitley Bay 20976 (#C16?)

:o suffering cats, aahhhh!

Bob GERARD
ALISTAIR Walker



1974 A/S Nov 28th p.57 BT23C ex Gethin for sale 01 567 3941 (#C2?)

Andrew. I think the Whitley Bay No is in fact J Blades Tel No.

There are so many anomalies in this lot that I suggest read with caution. I have endeavoured to reflect this but I am sure I will have missed some of the alternative histories.
One reason for a summary like this is that it can help to untangle the less obvious, if I have misrepresented any views please don’t hesitate to put the boot in!

BT23-1 RF5 FVA 7021
1967 Jack Brabham
1968 Irish Racing Cars/Tommy Reid Ford Twin Cam, retained till
1970 Walter Kinear
1971 Nelson Todd
1973 Maurice Stirling
1982 for sale by Northdown Racing, Ripley, Surrey
1984 Jon Bradburn
1985 Andrew Fellowes
now with John Moulds


BT23-2 RF6 FVA 7012
1967 Denny Hulme/Frank Gardner
1968 Walter Habegger (see 4), but borrowed back by Hulme after BT23-5 crash
1969 Scuderia Picchio Rosso/Enzo Corti (23-4 scratched on chassis, -B.M.)
1970 Vittorio Brambilla

BT23-3 RF8 FVA 7003
1967 Frank Gardner
1968 Xavier Perrot
1969 destroyed by Perrot (at Nurburgring?)

BT23-4 FVA 7008
1967 Winkleman for Rees
1968 Walter Habbeger (see 2)
1969 Bruno Fray [this number sometimes ascribed to Corti's car which was given the wrong plate at a rebuild] C.T.

BT23-5
1967 Winkleman for Rindt & van Lennep
1968 Denny Hulme, accident NZ
Feo Stanton
Graham Hepburn
(Les Sargent)
1981 Denis Lupton, Melbourne
1983 George Goodare, Sydney

BT23-6 FVA 7027
1967 Witley Racing Services/Robin Widdows
1967 Sold to Mitsubishi to produce Colt F2
1968 (Canada for Dave Webster, or is this BT23-9?)
2003 for sale USA

BT23-7
1967 Mitter
1968 (Norbert?) or Werner Lindermann then to (perhaps BT23-9 D.M.)
1969 Lindermann/Montan Racing
1970 Montan Racing/Helmut Gall, destroyed

BT23-8
1967 Nanni Galli with Alfa engine
1968 Giorgio Pianta
1969 (Etienne Vigoureux as F3, see BT23-9)
or Albert Poon at Macau
-still in Italy a year or two back, C.T.

BT23-9
David Bridges for Brian Redman
1968 (Canada for Dave Webster, or is this BT23-7?)
1969 (Etienne Vigoureux as F3 see BT23-8)

BT23A 2300cc
1967 Jack Brabham, Tasman Cup Winner
David McKay
Gerg Cusack
Peter Simms, retains

BT23B-1
1967 Mildren/Gardner, Mike Hawley A/S 16 Jun p.73
1968 Bob Rose A/S 19 Jul. p.37
1969 Gary & Agnes Mickel
2005 NSW

BT23B-2
1967 Vogele, 3rd, Monza May 28th,
nothing more ‘till Willy Widar, to Jean Louis Gillet, to John Harper, to Phillip Walker
2003 H & H auctions 7th May, did not sell, est. 75 to 85,000 pounds UK
2004 Legends Racing

BT23B-3
1967 G Pitt
1968 Tony lanfranchi
JD Lewis, Roy Pike for Jack Smith, killed in the car in ’69, sold to Canada for
1969 Cordts. Mosport, 7th entered by Paul Seitz

BT23B-4?
Hawley?



BT23C-1
1967 Jack Brabham, Frank Gardner
1968 Piers Courage, Laurence Brownlie
1968 Piko Troberg, Harry Stiller as F3?
1969 Graham McRae, Alistair Walker
1970 Walter Kinnear, Bob Howlings
1971 Rodney Seow, Singapore
1980 Mike Truter, Singapore
1983 Brian Wilson, retains 2006

BT23C-2
1967 Frank Gardner?
1968 Frank Lythgoe, Peter Gethin
1969 Whitmore, Don Godden
1973 A/S 1st March p. 56 for sale Low Cost Racing BT23C-2 ex Gethin
1974 A/S 28th Nov. p. 57 BT23C ex Gethin for sale 01 567 3941

BT23C-3

BT23C-4
1968 Chris Lambert, destroyed at Zandvoort

BT23C-5
1968 Winkleman for Rindt
1969 Ecurie Ecosse/Graham Birrell
1973 Joe Applegarth
2003 Justin Segal, West Bloomfield, USA
2006 Private collection, UK
(note. Frank Curcio, NSW has remains of a chassis believed to be ex 23C-5)

BT23C-6
1968 Max Mosley
1969 Peter Parnell, ZA (see BT23C-10)
1970 Arnold Charlton

BT23C-7
1968 Frank Williams for Piers Courage
1969 Roly Levis,
Baron Robertson crashed, Phil Harris (see BT23C-17) rebuilt as F Ford by Phil Harris, returned to UK late 80’s, acquired by Bobby Rahal, major rebuild by Phil Simkin, for sale 2004 $95,000

BT23C-8
1968 Kurt Ahrens
1969-70 Bernd Terbec
1977 Bill Morris

BT23C-9
1968 Church Farm Racing for Derek Bell
1968-9 Laurence Brownlie

BT23C-10
1968 Malcom Payne
1969 Garth McGilliwie, ZA (see BT23C-6)
1970 Tony Dean
1971 Rod Pickering
1972 A/S 2nd March p.52 for sale, Rod Pickering
1972 Bob Howlings
1973 Bob Snelson
no more ‘till
2006 Private collection, UK

BT23C-11
1968 Winklemann for Rees & Mitter
1969 Bill Ivy, then to Brian Cullen after Ivy’s bike crash
1970 Brian Cullen (mechanic Steve Mills)
no more ‘till
1990 Mark Raymond or Rayment, UK
2004 for sale by Maverick Motorsport

BT23C-12
1968 Frank Williams for Manfredini
1969 Frank Williams for Guthrie
1969? Bob Gerard for Widdows & Hart
1970-1 Gerry Tyzack
1971 maybe Robin Darlington? –C.T.
(1971 A/S Nov.11th p.46 BT23C for sale ex Gerard, Traco Chev, DG300?)
1986 Adrian Thomas
1990 Monte Shalett
1998 Mark Leonard/G.P. Motors, La Jolla, CA
Peter Bull

BT23C-14
1968 Frank Williams for Carlos Piaretti, Temporada

BT23C-15
1968 Eduardo Copello, Temporada

BT23C-16
1968 Frank Williams for Juan Manuel Bordeu, Temporada,
1969 Frank Williams for Piers Courage, Jackie Ickx, then to
1970 Alistair Walker, then to Gagliardi
(1971 Marcello Gallo F3?)
1973 A/S March 15th p.59 ex Alistair Walker, John Blades Whitley Bay 20976
no more ‘till
2004 restored by Phil & Gary Simkin
2005 Private Collection, UK


BT23C-17
1968 Jorge Cuperio, Temporada
1978 approx destroyed by fire?

BT23D Alfa 2472cc
1968 Frank Gardner, Kevin Bartlett
‘Jim Abbotts with Olds, Chris Murphy killed hill climb’ -Ray Bell
(1978 destroyed by fire?) -D.M.

BT23E-1
Rebuilt late 80’s, sold to Art Valdez, USA

BT23F-1
2004 Dave Darrow, Canada

BT23G-1

BT23G-2

spelling -again.

GREG Cusack not Gerg:banghead:

Is it BT23A or BT23A-1?

Some observations:

BT23-1
I have Kinnear till 1972, when he sold to Roy Courtney, then Stirling 73

BT23-2
I don’t have Habegger, but an unknown American who didn’t get a chance to race it before it was reclaimed for Hulme, then Picchio Rossi

BT23C-1
chronology a bit astray
1967 works/Brabham and Gardner
1968 Troberg early, then Stiller F3, then Williams/Courage F2 from Albi
1969 Brownlie and McRae NZ, McRae Europe
I don’t have either Walker or Kinnear against this number

BT23C-4
I have Scuderia Picchio Rosso/Enzo Corti against this in 1969 - BT23?

BT23C-6
As I think I’ve mentioned, I have Garth McGillwie in this in 1969, not Parnell

BT23C-7
Just to protect Baron Robertson’s memory, the car was crashed during his ownership, but not by him!

BT23C-8
Owned for past few years by David Brown

BT23C-9
No known Brownlie connection with this car

BT23C-10
Again, Parnell rather than McGillwie in 1969
Also Howlings between Dean and Pickering in 1970, then again in 1972

BT23C-11
I have Harold and Gerry McGarrity in this in 1973

BT23C-12
add Kelvin Lambeth in HSCC racing 1988/89

BT23C-14
Cacho Fangio also drove this one for Williams in the Temporada

BT23C-15
entered by Berta for Copello (and also Reutemann) in the Temporada
Believed retained by Berta for some years afterwards

BT23C-17
I have this with Squadra Tartaruga/Xavier Perrot from mid 1969, and Kurt Beuss 1970
I’m not sure that it was the same BT23C-17 that Baron Robertson raced in NZ 1971-72, Kelvin Cameron 1973, and destroyed by fire c1978

I’ll have a look at the bigger-engined cars after work

BT23b-1 still in UK 2006.BT23b-2 still in UK 2006. BT23b-3What proof do we have that it went to Canada after Jack Smiths accident ????I thought the engine and box were removed.The engine going into the "tasman anglia" the chassis ?????(Jack Smith was Canadian) Only 3 cars were constructed.

23F-1 originally Bill Gubelmann I think, then Al Justasson.
Will extract from FB records and post later

Chris

Andrew,

BT23B-1 isn't correct , the car here is the ex Mildren ex Coombes/G.Hill chassis which David McKinney believed to be -1 , however the car started life as BT16 , F2-8-65 , never went near Agnes and Gray Mickel in hillclimbs in the U.K.
This is the car nearing a long and costly rebuild owned by Rob. McMillan in Sydney.

Bryan.

As promised....

BT23B-1
Mildren 1967
Niel Allen 1967-68
Col Green 1968-71
?Neville Rear WA 1972

I have different numbers from yours for the other 23Bs:
•B2 for Pitt > Pike > Jack Smith; Al Pease 1970, back to UK and Jack Smith 1972 (and his accident)
•B3 for Hawley 67, Bob Rose 68, Mickels 1969-70
•unknown no. for Vögele etc
but I am prepared to accept these are wrong!
(I still make that four cars, Ted!)

BT23D
restored to original by Ian Tate 1987

Don’t know about any Fs or Gs

I agree with the histories of what you call B2 and with what you call B3 but I don't agree with the numbers. The third BT23B was Vögele's. If one BT23B/1 was sold to Australia and another BT23B/1 sold to Hawley, I woudn't be totally surprised. This seems to be what happened a couple of years earlier with BT14 FL-1-65. An MRD tax dodge maybe? Or just man in charge of chassis plate stamping who couldn't count?

Allen

Allen,

I don't think you can say that a BT23 was sold to Australia , F2-8-65 appears to have been returned to the works and altered at the works to accept Climax 2.5 FPF and HD5 Hewland in the style of the BT23 series cars with limitations , e.g the Correct BT23 cars were fitted with magnesium front uprights , whereas the car here ,F2-8-65 still retains BT early series Triumph Herald/Spitfire uprights , I know this as I rebuilt the whole sorry front end.

Bryan.

Al Pease BT23B, 1/7/70
http://www.autocourse.ca/photos/saison1970/ottawa/index.html

Chassis number?
http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/pitstop/demolition/113/de_Mortier_BT23.jpg

Bryan
I've always been aware of the Coombs/Mildren car history, but am sure its plate said BT23B-1 when it appeared in the 1967 Tasman - or if my memory's faulty about that, it was certainly described as a BT23B

So is a suggestion that;

F2-8-65 is the Mildren car
BT23B-1 is Hawley, Mickels etc.,
BT23B-2 is Vogele (so say Legends Racing)
BT23B-3 is Pitt, Cordts etc.,

which is the 4 cars so BT23B-4 did not exist?

Thats assuming Legends are correct, that would only leave 1 & 3 to be possibly swapped around

if Legends are not correct then as David says (sorry I didn't mean to ignore your list quite so blatantly);

BT23B-2 Pitt, Cordts
BT23B-3 Hawley, Mickels
which would by default make
BT23B-1 Vogele

David, never for one moment was I questioning your call out .
In period here it seemed to be known as nothing if you get my drift , whereas cars like Jack's BT23A-1 were given a fine tooth comb going over.
Did Charles Vogele have an earlier BT11A FPF car.?????????

Bryan.

Being away from my records as we speak, I cannot be 100% sure, but am fairly certain a BT11-FPF did rank among Vogele's various Brabhams

I'll try later to dig out references to the Mildren "BT23B" from 1967

Vogele did in fact own a BT4,11A and 23B. I was involved with the BT11A and 23B returning to the UK.When we removed the wheels they still had his name on them.The car stillhas its original plate BT23B-2 I have photos that I took on the debut of the Hawley car clearly showing its plate23B-1 its possible that a "ffiddle plate" was done as for the BT4 (FJ-11-62) thats sitting in front of me.

Allen, I don't think you can say that a BT23 was sold to Australia.I didn't. David did. I was just trying to explain how that might be possible if BT23B/1 was the Hawley car.

I'll try later to dig out references to the Mildren "BT23B" from 1967
Confession time
I've checked more than a dozen 1967 Tasman references and none of them mentions BT23B
I wondered then if my source had been a Brabham model history article - in Autosport?
At which point the thought struck me that perhaps I'd read something to the effect that the BT23B was the F2-based FPF model, and jumped to the conclusion that this reference must have been to the Mildren/Gardner car.
It embarasses me to admit that the more I think about it, the more I suspect this is the likely explanation for my assumption (I was very young at the time
:) )
Apologies if I came close to messing up history

Allen,
I didn't mean ''you'' as in personally , but ''you'' as in anybody.
Do we know any first appearances of the U.K./ Europe based BT23's , the Mildren car was being used as a spare by Coombes/ Hill till mid 1966 to back up their Matra , the car was here in time for the Hordern Trophy at Warwick Farm 1st week of December and would presumably have been sea freighted out ,6/8 weeks timeframe on that , so built/modified during August/Sept , as Frank Gardner seemed to be the instigator of an F2 car with an FPF 2.5 this car would seem to be more of a prototype for the BT23B and to a lesser extent the BT23A.
Incidentally Kevin Bartlett told me a few years ago when I asked why after the Tasman the team had retained the BT11A and sold the F2 based car that the F2 car wasn't ''nice'', not Kevin's words exactly .

The rest of the history of F2-8-65 / nee BT23B is as follows ,
Neil Rear , Western Australia fited Ford Twin-cam , car ended up in W.A. for many years in the hands of photographer Julian Cowan , [ now deceased] , his widow consigned the car to Goodmans in Sydney for auction 11th August 2002 , where the car was purchased by the current owner Rob. McMillan.

This is the best I can do on first appearance dates:

Ted and I thought we'd sorted out the BT23Bs 20 years ago but maybe we hadn't. I've just gone back to my early-1980s card index and assembled this:

Brabham BT23B/1

Mike Hawley; completed June 1967 (See Autosport 16 Jun 1967 p973). Bought by Bob Rose (AS 19 Jul 1968 p37). Then the Mickels (AS 4 Apr 1969 p37). Advertised AS 22 Oct 1970 p59 and that's all I have.

Brabham BT23B/3

Built Sept 1967 "believed last one of the specially built Tasman F1 machines. 2 short successful races only" - George Pitt AS 8 Dec 1967 p1011. The races would be the Gold Cup and an Oulton libre (AS 6 Oct 1967 p587). Then Racing Preparations for Tony Lanfranchi RoC 1968. Later JD Lewis in ex-RP BT23B AS 13 Sep 1968 p5. Then Jack Smith for Roy Pike (AS 8 Aug 1969, 29 Aug 1969 - one of which mentions it's ex-Pitt, ex-RP). Then Autosport review of club racing (12 Feb 1970 p23) says Smith sold his BT23B to his homeland for the Canadian GP. Raced by Cordts from time-to-time in Canadian FA? That's all I have on this one.

My notes don't say why I'm so sure about the chassis numbers, but it does leave the Vögele car as BT23B/2.

Allen

Allen THE VOGELE IS 23B-2.I know where chassis 1 is as well.Its just 3 thats missing.We seem to be going over the same ground !!!!!!!!!!

We seem to be going over the same ground !!!!!!!!!!I know we are Ted. 20-year-old ground for you and me. But I think it's important that we demonstrate to the others why we believe something to be true instead of expecting them to just take our word for it. Any of us need to be able to ask "why do you believe that" and make us go back to our sources and check. David was good enough to do that on F2-8-65 and I have no doubt that you and I will take (have taken) our turn at saying "oops".

The BT23Bs might be a sufficiently separate subject to be worth splitting out into their own thread.

Allen

It is intriguing to see in the last issue of Classic & Sports Car [April 2006] two separate adverts by Automobiles Historiques Ltd on pages 83 and 100. The adverts refer to a 1967 BT23B chassis number 2 of 3 cars produced, and to a 1964 BT11A IC-1-64 ex Charles Vogele

Alan,
Thank you for listing the 2 cars ex Vogele , this is the reason I asked re Vogele having a BT11A as well , as I have always had IC-1-64 down against him , and became confused when I referred to'' old racing cars '', and presumed I had made an incorrect note many years ago.
Allen , is there a story here re your listing on your site ?
Bryan.

Both the Vogele cars in the Flavien Marcais advert he is selling on behalf of their owner.The Vogele BT4 is also for sale by a different UK owner. Good chance to corner the market !!!!!!!

BT23F

One built for FB. 1968-69 Bill Gubelmann; 1970-71: Al Justason. 1971-72 possibly the car of Michael Houselander [CAN FB] which is described as a BT23C [and if it is then we are in trouble!]

A couple of BT23 conundrums in North America
Ted Thomas appears April 1970 at Virginia International Raceway with a BT23. I've always presumed this to be the ex Webster car but maybe there are other options as it's a long way from RIR to VIR?

Dave Webster first shows up Riverside Nov 68 with a BT23.

Alan,
Thank you for listing the 2 cars ex Vogele , this is the reason I asked re Vogele having a BT11A as well , as I have always had IC-1-64 down against him , and became confused when I referred to'' old racing cars '', and presumed I had made an incorrect note many years ago.
Allen , is there a story here re your listing on your site ?
Bryan.Bryan

A story re my listing? I'm not with you. IC-1-64 is definitely the Vögele car, built late May 1964 so a good four months before the other BT11As. Confusingly the Mildren/Gardner BT11A also wore a plate saying IC-1-64 although it appears in MRD records as IC-3-64.

It's interesting to re-read my notes on the BT11As; my sources include Denis Lupton (Jan 1983), Duncan Rabagliati (April 1983), John Blanden (Dec 1984), Ted Walker (June 1987), George Thornton (Sep 1991), David McKinney (March 1994) and Bryan Miller (Oct 1994). It's a small world, isn't it? Pity John and George can't join us now.

Allen

I agree Allen IC-3-64 Mildren.

F2-8-65 appears to have been returned to the works and altered at the works to accept Climax 2.5 FPF and HD5 Hewland in the style of the BT23 series cars with limitations , etc...

Autosport reports than Frank Gardner did the work at Alan Mann's workshop.

(thanks for this to D.L.)

3rd Place in the 1969 Italian F3 Championship

Claudio Francisci, Brabham-Novamotor BT23, de Sanctis-Novamotor (Gerald Swan, F3 History)

BT23-8?

BT23C-12
1968 Frank Williams for Manfredini
1969 Frank Williams for Guthrie
1969? Bob Gerard for Widdows & Hart
1970-1 Gerry Tyzack
1971 maybe Robin Darlington? –C.T.
(1971 A/S Nov.11th p.46 BT23C for sale ex Gerard, Traco Chev, DG300?)
1986 Adrian Thomas
1990 Monte Shalett
1998 Mark Leonard/G.P. Motors, La Jolla, CA
Peter Bull

Revision.
1968 Frank Williams for Manfredini
1969 Frank Williams for Guthrie
1969? Bob Gerard for Widdows & Hart
1970-1 Gerry Tyzack
1971 maybe Robin Darlington? –C.T.
(1971 A/S Nov.11th p.46 BT23C for sale ex Gerard less engine & gearbox and also Traco Chev, DG300)
1986 Adrian Thomas
1988-9 Kelvin Lambeth as per D.M
1990 Monte Shalett
1998 Mark Leonard/G.P. Motors, La Jolla, CA
Peter Bull

Bryan Miller has asked me to post this picture of Brian Wilson's BT23C-1 at Eastern Creek March 2006:-
http://img331.imageshack.us/img331/3540/brabhamsandother034a4vi.th.jpg (http://img331.imageshack.us/my.php?image=brabhamsandother034a4vi.jpg)

Returning to this business of Kinnear having two BT23s, the report for Kirkistown 29 May 1971 (AS 10 Jun 1971 p46) says Nelson Todd was "having his first twin cam single seater drive in what was originally Brabham BT23-1 but now rebuilt to 23C spec" while Kinnear was "in his usual BT23 TC".

If Todd's BT23-1 is ex-Kinnear, this at least proves Kinnear had a second BT23 or BT23C by 1971. I think the identity BT23C/1 is a red herring.

Allen

Thierry De Mortier's BT23-3 at Silverstone, 20 May 2006:-
http://img344.imageshack.us/img344/404/silverstonehscc40th20may200620.th.jpg (http://img344.imageshack.us/my.php?image=silverstonehscc40th20may200620.jpg)

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/404/silverstonehscc40th20may200620.th.jpg (http://img523.imageshack.us/my.php?image=silverstonehscc40th20may200620.jpg)

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/9854/silverstonehscc40th20may200621.th.jpg (http://img523.imageshack.us/my.php?image=silverstonehscc40th20may200621.jpg)

http://img344.imageshack.us/img344/9854/silverstonehscc40th20may200621.th.jpg (http://img344.imageshack.us/my.php?image=silverstonehscc40th20may200621.jpg)

We have Chris Choat in a Brabham BT36 in 1974 but I've found him a year earlier in a Brabham BT23C which seems to have escaped our attention so far.

References are:

Silverstone libre 18 Mar 1973 (4th) - Autosport 22 Mar 1973 p17
Silverstone libre 1 Jul 1973 (5th) - Autosport 5 Jul 1973 p43

It was said to still have a FVA engine.

Any ideas? Anyone have Motoring News for those events to see if it adds a clue or two?

Allen

If I discard the ‘cant be’ and ‘unlikely’ then I am left with the following;
BT23C-2, 8, 9, 12, 17 but that’s pure speculation on my part and not really a great help.

I have for 1973, #1 accounted for, #3 a mystery, #4 destroyed, #5 Joe Applegarth, #6 fled the country as did #7, #10 Bob Snelsdon, #11 McGarrity, #14 most like in S.America as is #15, #16 advertised for sale on the 15th March so I would be surprised if it was racing 3 days later.

The first outing I have for Applegarth is 12 Aug (Croft) so we can't really exclude his car. However, I'd have to agree that it's somewhat unlikely Applegarth and Choat had the same car as Applegarth started out with a twin-cam in his.

So I'm not helping much either.

Afraid MN has no extra information in its reports of those two libre meetings at Silverstone.

With regard to BT23C-6 (or possibly-10),Arnold Charlton recently confirmed that his car was sold back to the UK in late 1970 after the FVA engine had blown up after a recent re build and he lost patience with it.Sorry can't add any more than that.
Ian

Did Arnold Charlton say whether he bought Parnell's car or McGillewie's car? I think that's the key to sorting out the two South African BT23Cs.

Allen

BT23C-11
1968 Winklemann for Rees & Mitter
1969 Bill Ivy, then to Brian Cullen after Ivy’s bike crash
1970 Brian Cullen (mechanic Steve Mills)
no more ‘till
1990 Mark Raymond or Rayment, UK
2004 for sale by Maverick Motorsport
Some observations:

BT23C-11
I have Harold and Gerry McGarrity in this in 1973

Returning to this business of Kinnear having two BT23s, the report for Kirkistown 29 May 1971 (AS 10 Jun 1971 p46) says Nelson Todd was "having his first twin cam single seater drive in what was originally Brabham BT23-1 but now rebuilt to 23C spec" while Kinnear was "in his usual BT23 TC".

If Todd's BT23-1 is ex-Kinnear, this at least proves Kinnear had a second BT23 or BT23C by 1971. I think the identity BT23C/1 is a red herring.

AllenWhile trying to find something else, I spotted an advert for the "Ex-Bill Ivy. Championship winner last year, Brabham BT23C 1600 cc Holbay Clubman" from Glemgormley, County, Antrim (AS 18 Sep 1975 p58).

Does anyone know who won the Irish Clubmans series in 1974? Alternatively, anyone know where the McGarritys lived? I know Harold McGarrity drove a Holbay 1600cc powered BT23C in 1973 but haven't covered Irish racing in 1974 as the main series moved to Atlantic and Chris will already be all over it.

I wonder if BT23C/11 was Kinnear's 1971/72 car and then moved to the McGarritys when Kinnear bought his Lotus 69.

Allen

QUOTE
and if you wish to see a rare appearance of Jack Brabham's 1967 2.5 litre V8 BT23A Tasman Series open wheeler, we will be running the car this weekend at OP also. You can see pics of the car at www.summit.net.au/~simmsy - not just demo laps, the car will be racing in Group O.
UNQUOTE

BT23C-2
1967 Frank Gardner?
1968 Frank Lythgoe, Peter Gethin
1969 Whitmore, Don Godden
1973 A/S 1st March p. 56 for sale Low Cost Racing BT23C-2 ex Gethin
1974 A/S 28th Nov. p. 57 BT23C ex Gethin for sale 01 567 3941To which I can add that Ian Webb owned it in 1982 ("ex-Lythgoe/Gethin" - AS 26 Aug 1982 p28) and loaned it to Mike Hartley to use in the Gates-Varley Monoposto series.

Allen

Hi: i found this thread surfing the net.
Yes i have the BT23F that was last owned raced by Al Justisson,
presently is is 60 to 70% restored.

Dave Darrow

Welcome Dave

We have the history of that car as 1968-69 Bill Gubelmann; 1970-71: Al Justason; then maybe 1971-72 Michael Houselander. You say it was last raced by Justason. Where's it been since then?

Allen

Welcome Dave

We have the history of that car as 1968-69 Bill Gubelmann; 1970-71: Al Justason; then maybe 1971-72 Michael Houselander. You say it was last raced by Justason. Where's it been since then?

Allen

I bought it from Dino Delousis (might have spelt it wrong) He bought it from Mike Houselander and installed a 2 litre pinto motor with a turbo,drove it at Mosport once,it was undriveable,so he pulled the motor and the car sat in his garage since about 1974.
I bought it from him about 2 years ago, have since got new proper bodywork,Brian Hart Big Valve Twincam, still need a windshield,header,fuelcell and some assembly time.

dave

Thanks Dave

A Pinto turbo! What category would he have had that in?

Are you able to confirm the chassis number or has it lost its plate?

Allen

Hi Allen:

in Canada we have a class called Formula Libra-anything with 4 wheels that doesn't if in any class runs in F.L.

i have the chassis plate in my hand,
Motor Racing Developments LTD

BT23F-1
the frame is stamped RF 44

dave

Whilst trolling for other things I came across this one , way out of left field. Ted .???

Autosport , May 26th. 1977. page 42.

Eike Wellhausen, former E-type racer now has a Brabham BT23C , originally built for an American who had intended installing a Chevy V8 . It has never raced however , and Wellhausen turned up at Croft on Sunday with a 3-litre Cosworth unit.

There is a photo of the car and driver , complete with wings etc.

Bryan.

Brabham BT23 in Atlantic trim with a BDA being raced in HSCC Bradburn & Wedge Pre-71 series by Peter Rogers. Was raced in F2 by Kurt Ahrens. This from the March 1984 HSCC Newsletter. Twas said that Mr Bradburn himself had run a similar car with a twin-cam at Snetterton at the end of 1983.

Rogers car is later (HSCC Newsletter Oct 1984 p14) listed as BT23C-8.

Twas said that Mr Bradburn himself had run a similar car with a twin-cam at Snetterton at the end of 1983.[/b].
I was there, -it was painted white and I think there were only a handful of runners, perhaps just 4.
The Pre '71 series was to start the next year, this was just a test run.

It always intruiged me that the series was referred to as the Pre-70 series in its first season (or two?) and yet allowed cars built up to 31/12/1971. Or was that just because David had a BT35? :)

Heavens I had forgotten that Allen! More likely it was because of John Foulston, not that any rule would have worried John much.

There were mutterings but it helped fill the grids, ;)

I see last month (August) at Oulton there was a 23C raced by John Counsell, any ideas which one please?

BT23C-12 revisited
1968 Frank Williams for Manfredini
1969 Frank Williams for Guthrie
1969? Bob Gerard for Widdows & Hart
1970-1 Gerry Tyzack
Gerry Tyack cracked four national speed records at Elvington in his F2 Brabham-FVA, variously reported as "his Brighton Speed trials winning car", ex-Widdows and "Brabham BT23C/12, the ex-Gerard Racing car". Autosport 8 Oct 1970 p41
1971 maybe Robin Darlington? –C.T.
(1971 A/S Nov.11th p.46 BT23C for sale ex Gerard less engine & gearbox and also Traco Chev, DG300)
1986 Adrian Thomas
1988-9 Kelvin Lambeth as per D.M
1990 Monte Shalett
1998 Mark Leonard/G.P. Motors, La Jolla, CA
Peter Bull

Tasman Revival, Eastern Creek.

Phil Harris, BT23C-15
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/9571/img1968wk4.th.jpg (http://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1968wk4.jpg) http://img459.imageshack.us/img459/1492/img1717la4.th.jpg (http://img459.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1717la4.jpg)

Eastern Creek, Tasman Revival,
Brabham BT23D-1

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/8939/img1689vg8.th.jpg (http://img294.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1689vg8.jpg) http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/381/img1692oc8.th.jpg (http://img237.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1692oc8.jpg)

Spencer Martin in BT23D-1, -widely acknowledged as one of the outstanding drives of the Tasman Revival at Eastern Creek,
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/3263/img1997gi5.th.jpg (http://img510.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1997gi5.jpg)

BT23A, is that right it is a 1966 chassis as per entry for Tasman Revival?
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/5840/img1878mo9.th.jpg (http://img155.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1878mo9.jpg)

Tasman Revival, Eastern Creek.
Phil Harris, BT23C-15

Not the BT23C he raced in 1971-72 then:D

7.12.17-15, A tangled web you weave ;)

I know there are some wobblies here, but I hope this more or less reflects the views held, I have got myself into a muddle with one, but here goes. There are also some Tasman cars here that I am very light on dates for.

BT23-1 RF5 FVA 7021
1967 Jack Brabham
1968 Irish Racing Cars/Tommy Reid
1969
1970 Walter Kinear
1971 A/S June 10th p.46 Nelson Todd in BT23-1 rebuilt to 23C spec.
1972 Roy Courtney
1973 Maurice Stirling
nothing more ‘till
1982 For Sale by Northdown Racing, Ropley, Surrey
1984 Jon Bradburn
1985 Andrew Fellowes
2004 John Moulds

BT23-2 RF6 FVA 7012
1967 Denny Hulme/Frank Gardner
1968 Walter Habegger?
1969 Picchio Rosso/Enzo Corti, (23-4 scratched on chassis)
1970 Vittorio Brambilla, last used at Tulln Langlebarn on the 13th September

BT23-3 RF8 FVA 7003
1967 Frank Gardner
1968 Xavier Perrot
1969 Destroyed by Perrot at Nurburgring 27th April
nothing more ‘till
2006 Thierry De Mortier, Silverstone May 20th ‘06

BT23-4 FVA 7008
1967 Winklemann for Rees
1968 Walter Habbeger
1969 Bruno Fray, (sometimes listed as Corti’s which was given the wrong chassis during a rebuild)

BT23-5
1967 Winklemann for Rindt & van Lennep
1968 Denny Hulme, accident NZ, Feo Stanton, Graham Hepburn (Les Sargent)
1981 Denis Lupton, Melbourne
1983 George Goodare, Sydney

BT23-6 FVA 7027
1967 Whitley Racing Services for Robin Widdows
to Mitsubishi for Colt F2?
1968 Dave Webster, Canada or #9 ?
2003 ex Widdows for sale by Paragon?

BT23-7
1967 Gerhard Mitter (chassis plate 9?)
1968 Werner Lindermann
1969 Werner Lindermann/Montan Racing
1970 Montan Racing/ Helmut Gall, last seen at Hockenheim on April 12th, then destroyed?

BT23-8 Alfa
1967 Nanni Galli
1968 Giorgio Pianta
1969 Etienne Vigoureux as F3 –see #9
1969 Claudio Francisci, Novamotor, 3rd Italian F3 Championship
reported in Italy 1990 C.T.

BT23-9
1967 David Bridges for Brian Redman
1968 Canada for David Webster? See #7 or Italy see #8

BT23A Repco 2493cc
1967 Jack Brabham
David McKay dates please?
Greg Cusack
Peter Simms

BT23B-1 2 litre FPF
1967 Mike Hawley A/S June 16th p.73
1968 Bob Rose A/S July 19th p.37
1969 Greg & Angus Mickel

BT23B-2
1967 Charles Vogele 3rd Monza May 28th
Willy Widar
Jean Louis Gillet
John Harper
Phillip Walker
2003 H & H Auctions Did not sell
2004 Legends

BT23B-3
1967 G Pitt
1968 Tony Lanfranchi
JD Lewis, Roy Pike, Jack Smith killed in the car('72?) , sold to Canada
1969 Mosport, Cordts entered by Paul Seitz
1970 Al Pease, July 1st Ottawa Grand Prix

BT23C-1
1967 Jack Brabham,Frank Gardner
1968 Troberg, Stiller for F3, Williams/Courage
1969 Graham McRae, Alister Walker
1970 Walter Kinnear? Bob Howlings. Rodney Seow, Singapore
1980 Mike Truter
1983 Brian Wilson & retains 2006

BT23C-2
1967 Frank Gardner
1968 F Lythgoe, P Gethin
1969 Whitmore, Don Godden
next seen
1973 A/S March 1st p.56 Low Cost racing for sale
1974 A/S November 28th p.57 ex Gethin for sale 01 567 3941
next seen
1982 for sale, Northdown Racing, Ripley, Surrey.
1982 Ian Web loaned to Mike Hartley for Gates-Varley Monoposto Series
nothing further

BT23C-3
A.C.A. ?

BT23C-4
1968 Chris Lambert, destroyed Zandvoort July 28th, fatal accident

BT23C-5
1968 Winklemann for Rindt, Vic Elford, accident Monza July 23rd New frame. Old frame sold to Ian lees who built up a new car, now owned by Frank Curcio Melbourne
1969 Graham Birrell
1973 Joe Applegarth
nothing more ‘till
2003 Justin Segal, Bloomfield, USA

BT23C-6
1968 Max Mosley, Frank Williams
1969 Peter Parnell or Garth McGillwie ZA see #10
1970 Arnold Charlton and sold back to the UK after the FVA failed.

BT23C-7 RF26
1968 Piers Courage
1969 Roly Levis, Baron Robertson, crashed by Levis
next seen Bobby Rahal, rebuilt by Clay Filson
2004 sold for $85,000

BT23C-8
1968 Kurt Ahrens
1969 Bernd Terbeck
nothing more ‘till
1977 Bill Morris
nothing more ‘till
1984 Peter Rogers
2006 David Brown

BT23C-9
1968 Derek Bell, accident June 3rd Crystal Palace, nothing futher

BT23C-10
1968 Malcom Payne
1969 Garth McGillwie or Peter Parnell, ZA, see #23C-6
1970 Tony Dean
1971 Bob Howlings, Rod Pickering
1972 For sale Rod Pickering
1972 Bob Howlings
1973 Bob Snelson
nothing more ‘till
2006 Private Collection, UK

BT23C-11
1968 Winklemann for Rees and Mitter
1969 Bill Ivey
1971 Brian Cullen, (mechanic Steve Mills)
1973 Harold & Gerry McGarrity
nothing more ‘till
1990 Mark Raymond or Rayment, UK
2004 for sale Maverick
2005 Sold Bonhams, RAF Hendon

BT23C-12
1968 Williams for Manfredini & Guthrie
1969 Bob Gerard for Widdows & Hart
1970 Gerry Tyzack
1971 Robin Darlington? C.T.
1971 November 11th for sale ex Gerard, less engine & gearbox
nothing more ‘till
1986 Adrian Thomas
1988-9 Kelvin Lambeth
1990 Monte Shalott
1998 Mark Leonard, GP Motors, La Jolla, CA
200? Peter Bull

BT23C-14
1968 Frank Williams for Carlos Piaretti, Cacho Fangio, Temporada

BT23C-15
1968 Eduardo Copello, Temporada, entered by Berta, retained for several years
2006 Phil Harris

BT23C-16
1968 Frank Williams for Juan Manuel Bordeu, Temporada,
1969 Piers Courage, Jackie Ickx
1970 Alistair Walker, Gagliardi, Marcello Gallo F3
1973 John Blades for sale
2004 Garry & Phil Simkin
2005 Private Collection, UK

BT23C-17
1968 Jorge Cuperio, Temporada
1969 Squadra Tartaruga/Xavier Perrot
1970 Kurt Beuss
see M/N 1972 Sept 7th
nothing more ‘till Phil Harris 19?? and retains
2006

BT23D-1 Alfa 272cc V8
1968 Frank Gardner
Kevin Bartlett
Spencer Martin
Jim Abbots, with Olds
Chris Murphy killed
dates etc please!


BT23E-1 RF21
1968 Jack Brabham, Tasman
Bob Jane, Bob Curran
Nothing more ‘till
1980-2 David Madres, Bill Marshall
1983 Ray Delaney, Melbourne and sold to Art Valdez

BT23F-1 RF44
1968-9 Bill Gubelmann
1970 Al Justasson, then Michael Houselander
sold to Dino Delousis then sold to
2004 Dave Darrow, Canada

BT23G-1

BT23G-2
1998 Restored by Tom Rust Engineering
200? Sold Race-Cars.com. $65,000. No history listed

Not allocated, -yet!
1973 Choat in a BT23C
1977 Eike Wellhausa BT23C

I know there are some wobblies here, but I hope this more or less reflects the views held, I have got myself into a muddle with one, but here goes. There are also some Tasman cars here that I am very light on dates for.

BT23B-1 2 litre FPF
1967 Mike Hawley A/S June 16th p.73
1968 Bob Rose A/S July 19th p.37
1969 Greg & Angus Mickel



Minor correction: it is GRAY and AGNES Mickel who were a husband and wife team.

I will try to add some more dates to the hillclimb/sprint ownership and possibly additional owners where appropriate, however a tad busy at the moment!

:)

BT23C-12 revisited
1968 Frank Williams for Manfredini
1969 Frank Williams for Guthrie
1969? Bob Gerard for Widdows & Hart
1970-1 Gerry Tyzack
Gerry Tyack cracked four national speed records at Elvington in his F2 Brabham-FVA, variously reported as "his Brighton Speed trials winning car", ex-Widdows and "Brabham BT23C/12, the ex-Gerard Racing car". Autosport 8 Oct 1970 p41
1971 maybe Robin Darlington? –C.T.
(1971 A/S Nov.11th p.46 BT23C for sale ex Gerard less engine & gearbox and also Traco Chev, DG300)
1986 Adrian Thomas
1988-9 Kelvin Lambeth as per D.M
1990 Monte Shalett
1998 Mark Leonard/G.P. Motors, La Jolla, CA
Peter Bull

I have a feeling that Patsy Burt also drove the BT23C when Tyack owned it taking several records at the annual RAC Records week at Elvington.

BT23A-1
To Scuderia Veloce (McKay) immediately after 1967 Tasman series. Drivers Greg Cusack and Phil West
Brian Page 1969-70 (including new Britton frame)

BT23Bs
I have the Hawley and Pitt numbers the other way around
Jack Smith raced UK 1969, and again in 1972 (when he was killed in it). He was Canadian, so may have retained ownership throughout that period. The car is believed to have been written off in the accident
I have a note of the ex-Mickel car being in Yorkshire in 2000

BT23C-1
Raced in NZ 1969 by Laurence Brownlie and Graham McRae, then McRae in Europe

BT23C-7
After Levis's crash (in Robertson's ownership), rebuilt to FF spec by Robertson and Phil Harris and subsequently raced in NZ by Harris and others. Rebuilt to original spec in 1980s and sold to Martin Smith in UK c1990

BT23C-17
Possibly imported to NZ by Baron Robertson as a replacement for BT23-7: the timing fits.
Alternatively, a different BT23C-17 built up by Robertson and Harris on a new chassis but incorporating bits from the crashed car, including the FVA. Raced by Robertson and others in NZ but destroyed in a nightclub fire c1978

I'm confident the Hawley and Pitt cars are as Andrew has them.

The history of the car that went to Canada, BT23B/3, is not without difficulties. Jack Smith last races it in libre at Silverstone on 30 Aug and then John Cordts races it at St Jovite on 7 Sep. This seems a remarkably rapid journey from Silverstone to Canada and had put just the slightest element of doubt in my mind about Smith's car going to Canada.

Paul Seitz is given as the entrant while the car is in Canada. Al Pease uses it a couple of times in 1970 and the last time I have note of it racing in Canada is 11 Oct 1970 at Mosport.

I don't have any information on the car returning to England and the next information I have is Snetterton when Smith is killed in an accident. His obituary in Autosport (6 Jul 1972 p4) says that he bought the ex-Pitt car and raced it in 1969 before "sending it to Canada". It then says "this year the car was returned and and Smith was having his second race this season with the car".

Allen

Is this 23C-17? Sold some time ago.

http://www.vprace.com/carsales/brab.htm

1973 May 3rd Fuji, Sato Koichi, Brabham BT23/Ford (Allen I know you have that one too), it's as much a mystery as the second BT36.

A bit more for the BT23-2 & BT23-4 muddle.
Autosport 1969
BT23-4 July 4th p.8 Enzo Corti, Scuderia Picchio Rossa, Rheims
BT23-4 Sept 18th p.36 Enzo Corti, Scuderia Picchio Rossa, Albi

Some others,
BT23-9 1969 A/S June 13th p.9 Werner Lindermann, Zolder.
BT23C-14 1969 A/S Jan 3rd p.10 fire damage repaired
BT23C-15 1969 A/S Jan 3rd p.12 driven by Carlos Reutemann

I have Phil Harris with BT23C-15 and BT23C-17 as of today, is that correct?

While on the subject of South America, can anyone help with this,

1971 Osvaldo Bessia, Brabham BT23 Fiat, Argentina F2 Champion.
He seems to have acquired the car in 1968/9.

While on the subject of South America, can anyone help with this,

1971 Osvaldo Bessia, Brabham BT23 Fiat, Argentina F2 Champion.
He seems to have acquired the car in 1968/9.Maybe one of these?

BT23C-14
1968 Frank Williams for Carlos Piaretti, Cacho Fangio, Temporada

BT23C-15
1968 Eduardo Copello, Temporada, entered by Berta, retained for several years
2006 Phil Harris

The Fiat engine was popular in Argentina's equivalent of F2.

I just noticed the reference to Dave Webster in a BT23 in Canada in 1968. Chris, have you got anywhere on this? Could it have been a BT23G?

Allen

I just noticed the reference to Dave Webster in a BT23 in Canada in 1968. Chris, have you got anywhere on this? Could it have been a BT23G?

Allen
ARRC results for Riverside Nov. 21st '69 give Dave Webster, BT23 as a d.n.f in the FB race. However what is more interesting is that it gives Bill Gubelmann in the BT23F also as a d.n.f. We know the latter to be correct so it adds credence to the former, but I accept it could have been a G.

Andrew

Webster was, I think, Californian rather than Canadian. I think it is a BT23 as the G didn't appear until 1969 did it? Possibly the BT23 then used by Ted Thomas in 1970

Chris

Yes, his address is given as Newport Beach, CA.

Still stuck on #6 (that Paragon has for sale) or #9 as the candidates.

Andrew

The Brabham production lists that I've seen show the G as a 1968 car, the same year as the BT23F. The difference seems to be the spec, with the F having that latest FT200 and the G having a Mk 5 - which seems rather old. Maybe there was a small market for a cheap as chips FB car alongside the 'state of the art' car for Gubelmann.

Allen

Allen,

The price difference between an FT200 and a MK5 back then would have been maybe $ 70.00 or $ 80.00 pds.
The more likely reason would either have been the weight saving , FT200 ,90 lbs. approx. against 70 lbs approx. for a MK series , also the torque capacity of an FT is far greater.

Bryan.

Of course - I should have remember we have a Hewland expert here.

In that case I don't really understand why MRD did both a BT23F and a BT23G. Maybe one at the start of the year and one nearer the end? But they had the BT21C selling well and the BT29 on its way so they sound more like special orders.

Ted, Denis - do you have anything on these cars?

Allen

BT23C-2 RF14
1967 Frank Gardner
1968 F Lythgoe, P Gethin
1969 Whitmore, Don Godden
next seen
1973 A/S March 1st p.56 Low Cost racing for sale
1974 A/S November 28th p.57 ex Gethin for sale 01 567 3941
next seen
1982 for sale, Northdown Racing, Ripley, Surrey.
1982 Ian Web loaned to Mike Hartley for Gates-Varley Monoposto Series
Hugo Struder? to Keith Norman to
2006 John Councill
Can anyone help me on any dates/info for this lot please?

Andrew

Allen, I think that it is John Counsell. I spoke to him last year at the HSCC meeting, Silverstone at the end of May. I was getting info. from him regarding the cars he actually had there, but I see that he advised me of one he had at home. Unfortunately, my note simply says 'BT23C - Frank Lithgow, Peter Gethin' although I seem to recall him advising that it was a recent acquisition, but at that time it could have meant 2005!

Thanks John, the info came from a mate over in WA and it was only after I put the phone down did I realise I hadn't a clue how to spell Counsell.
I'll see if I can get some dates.

Andrew

BT23A, is that right it is a 1966 chassis as per entry for Tasman Revival?


Its first race 21st January 1967 in the Wigram Trophy during the NZ leg of the Tasman Series. It had apparently arrived by plane only days before the meeting. Considering this, I would expect it to be a 1966 chassis, as this was the prototype for their assault on the 1967 World Championship so it was more of a priority to get it right in England before they sent it out, rather than get it into raceworthy condition while Jack drove.

I find it ironic that Spencer Martin drove the BT23D at Eastern Creek, as it originally debuted Round 6 1968 Gold Star Series, and he retired from racing openwheelers after Round 5.

piglos, many thanks. I am collating the BT23s for a new page for Allen so its set me thinking, if it was say built in December '66 but not raced 'till January '67, is it a '66 car or a '67.
Surely if it was the model for '67 it should be listed as just that? Sorry for being a bit pedantic.

Anyone any thoughts? Andrew

BT23-3 RF8 FVA 7003
1967 Frank Gardner
1968 Xavier Perrot
1969 Destroyed by Perrot at Nurburgring 27th April
nothing more ‘till
1984 Gerard Gamand found nr Valance in poor condition without bodywork.
1989 Michale Champelovier (owned for 2 months)
1989 Thiery De Mortier
2007 Thierry De Mortier retains

BT23-2 RF6 FVA 7012
1967 Denny Hulme/Frank Gardner
1968 Walter Habegger?
1969 Picchio Rosso/Enzo Corti, (23-4 scratched on chassis)
1970 Vittorio Brambilla, last used at Tulln Langlebarn on the 13th September

Just going through some old mags to see how good the F2 coverage was and stumbled over this in 1968 Rome GP report (Speedworld International 2 Nov 1968 p12) :

"An older BT23, an ex-works car, was entrusted to the BWA Formula 3 driver Enzo Corti, and this was his first F2 drive. The car was previously used by Hulme in Tasmania after he had written off his original F2 chassis during last year's series and was raced by Brambilla at Tulln-Langenlebard in July".

On the shelf below I also have Eddie Guba's 1968 "Race Report 2" which has chassis numbers for F2 races. It lists both Brambilla's and Corti's cars as BT23-4 but also uses that number for Habegger's car at Thruxton in April and Hockenheim in October.

On the shelf below I also have Eddie Guba's 1968 "Race Report 2" which has chassis numbers for F2 races. It lists both Brambilla's and Corti's cars as BT23-4 but also uses that number for Habegger's car at Thruxton in April and Hockenheim in October.
Habegger has a d.n.a. for the Rome GP in '68 that Corti was at. I assume that BT23-2 was in Italy and BT23-4 was in Switzerland. I don't understand when the chassis plate muddle between #2 and #4 took place, and we don't have anything for either post 1970.
More pressure for Echappements I think Allen.

For the moment does this look 'asseptable'

BT23-2 RF6 FVA 7012
1967 Denny Hulme/Frank Gardner
1968 Enzo Corti, Rome GP, S/I 2nd Nov p.12
1969 Picchio Rosso/Enzo Corti, (23-4 scratched on chassis)
1970 Vittorio Brambilla, last used at Tulln Langlebarn on the 13th September

BT23-4 FVA 7008
1967 Winklemann for Rees
1968 Walter Habbeger
1969 Bruno Fray, (sometimes listed as Corti/Brambilla which was given the wrong chassis during a rebuild)

Andrew

As far as I can see Bruno Frey had a Tecno 69 through out 1969 and 1970, Chris when did he drive BT23-4?
Edit: oops I see he bought it in Feb. 69.
Andrew

piglos, many thanks. I am collating the BT23s for a new page for Allen so its set me thinking, if it was say built in December '66 but not raced 'till January '67, is it a '66 car or a '67.
Surely if it was the model for '67 it should be listed as just that? Sorry for being a bit pedantic.

Anyone any thoughts? Andrew
It was never intended to race before 1967, so was IMHO a 1967 model, or prototype if you like.
In earlier years, when Brabham numbers had a year suffix, a car built in 1963 (say) for racing in 1964 would have had a '-64' suffix.
In this they were following earlier Cooper practice (in spite of what at least one later owner believes... )

Thanks David, I just wanted to establish a 'rule' to work by, and I was surprised and perhaps a little disappointed to see that one of the cars at the Tasman Revival was claiming to be older than the accepted year.

But I suppose it comes down to accepted by whom? Does CAMS have a regulation for historic racing that states the car is "aged" from it's first race, or it's first intended race? As David states, in his opinion it should be classed as a 1967 car, and I can see the reasoning behind that, and agree.

Technically, I believe that it was probably built in 1966, and I believe that it is claimed to be quite innocently. I don't believe there is anything to be gained by Peter Simms by claiming it is a 1966 car. Anybody who has an interest in the car should know the history, especially as it is a unique model.

No & I understand what you are saying, and Peter if you are reading this, I was merely trying to establish what is the norm, your car is on a provisional page I am writing for Old Raceingcars.com and I need to set out in a way that is universally understood.

Cams Certificate of Description says 'what year does your car now represent' and as I understand it, it has to be a year it raced. Now, that may not be the year it was built of course and I guess what you put on an entry form is up to you!

I have the 1990 owner as Mark Raymond (or Rayment) on this side of the Irish Sea
BT23C-11
Mark Raymont, late 80's to 2003 with Holbay & Mk8

forgot to add now possibly in a museum in Europe

But I suppose it comes down to accepted by whom? Does CAMS have a regulation for historic racing that states the car is "aged" from it's first race, or it's first intended race? As David states, in his opinion it should be classed as a 1967 car, and I can see the reasoning behind that, and agree.

Technically, I believe that it was probably built in 1966, and I believe that it is claimed to be quite innocently. I don't believe there is anything to be gained by Peter Simms by claiming it is a 1966 car. Anybody who has an interest in the car should know the history, especially as it is a unique model.

Peter is a genuinly nice fellow....http://www.summit.net.au/~simmsy/Photos.html

This one needs a bit more homework but here is a little bit more;

BT23C-2 RF14
1967 Frank Gardner
1968 F Lythgoe, P Gethin
1969 Whitmore, Don Godden
next seen
1973 A/S March 1st, Low Cost racing for sale
1974 A/S November 28th ex Gethin for sale, 01 567 3941
next seen
1982 for sale, Northdown Racing, Ripley, Surrey.
1982 Ian Web loaned to Mike Hartley for Gates-Varley Monoposto Series
next seen with Hugo Struder?
1997 Joseph Mayer
2005 John Councill and retains 2007

so this does not look right after Struder, then to Keith Norman

No & I understand what you are saying, and Peter if you are reading this, I was merely trying to establish what is the norm, your car is on a provisional page I am writing for Old Raceingcars.com and I need to set out in a way that is universally understood.

Cams Certificate of Description says 'what year does your car now represent' and as I understand it, it has to be a year it raced. Now, that may not be the year it was built of course and I guess what you put on an entry form is up to you!

Thanks Andrew...I was chattting with a Simms associate today...

Quote: There is a very simple explanation - the question asked of Peter was "in what year was the car manufactured?" to which Peter correctly answered as 1966. If he is asked "what year does the car represent?" the answer would be 1967. Peter has no control over the context in which the information is presented. Unquote

Mick I think, but don't hold me to it, the entry form would have had "Year of Car".

Can I ask if the F1 Ferrari that will be raced this year, wil be called the 2006 Ferrari? -after all strictly speaking, that was the year it was built.

Mick I think, but don't hold me to it, the entry form would have had "Year of Car".

Can I ask if the F1 Ferrari that will be raced this year, wil be called the 2006 Ferrari? -after all strictly speaking, that was the year it was built.

Andrew....I am not part of this debate :relax: ...just passing on comments largely because Peter is said to be too busy to post and only gets to have look at the forum every now and then.

we had a similar problem with a "smart ass" trying it on with a March 712 being a 70 car as one was first RACED in late 70.

Echappement Jan 1979 p194: Vds. Brahbam BT 23 4 Firest 1300 G bte Hewland rapport jante 10 12 pces + 1300 Abarth casse 78/57.02.51.

Just looking at the Cowdray 1000cc F3 book which has Claudio Francisci finishing 3rd in the 69 Italian F3 championship in a Brabham BT23 - Novamotor. Has his name cropped up yet on this thread as i havent been diligent enough to read the whole thread before posting, so apologies if he has, but it is Friday night and i've had 3 bottles of beer......

James

I think we might have mentioned him, but it's good to bring it back up because that's a real problem car. Basically does the rounds in Italian F3 from Picchi to Francisci to Franco Bernabei [see MN 2.10.69 p. 5 and 4.12.69 p. 7] but no idea which car it was to begin with.

Chris [rather good bottle of Sicilian red...]

Anyone got contact details for Francisci, as it would seem he is still racing. Lives in Rome?
Nella gara delle Sport e GT il “vecchio” Claudio Francisci con la fida Tiga ha dato una lezione di guida a tutti andando a vincere entrambe le manche, ...

{no beer or wine} but the cricket was good!

Having just had a dig around in Italian F3 results 1968-69 I reckon that this car is chassis 8, the ex Nanni Galli car.
Picchi uses a BT23 in late 1968.
Etienne Vigoureux has a one off drive at Pau 1969 in an F3 BT23 described as ex Galli [which could mean ex Franco Galli, but I can't now see where he might appear in a BT23 in 1968. Despite suggestions that he might have had the BT23 that Stiller briefly uses as an F3 in 1968 I can only see him in a BWA]
Francisci appears in a BT23 from 1 June 69 [after Vigoureux's outing]
then Bernabei appears late 69 in a car that MN says is ex Picchi/Francisci. Given that Vigoureux's Pau outing is entered by Jolly Club, I reckon that was a one off deal in what was an Italian car all along.

Still can't account for Stiller's F3 BT23, which is also sometimes called a 23C!

Chris
[yes wasn't the cricket good. Just good, no point being triumphalist as Aus will probably win the next two games and it's ONLY one-day stuff.]

#1 is in Ireland in 1969
#2 is with Enzo Corti
#3 is Perrot
#4 Bruno Fray?
#5 is in bits in NZ
#6 has gone to Japan
#7 is Montan Racing
#9 is Dave Webster at Riverside
so it really only leaves #8

(the interviews after the game were good too, great sportsmanship from both sides)

I think the allocation of #9 to Webster is still speculative isn't it? It's also possible it was a misdescribed BT21 or a BT23G.

Could Charlie Lucas help with that Stiller BT23? Wasn't he running Harry's cars that year?

Allen

[coffee, second cup; don't worry, the Aussies have just thrown a few matches so they could get us into the final, let us take a 1-0 lead and then humiliate us in the last two matches.]

With just one mention of Webster I would agree, but there is quite good detail on the cars entered.

http://www.virhistory.com/cars/arrc/1968-entry.htm

[sadly, yes!]

My records:
1970: Buess, Joliat (-1972)
1971: Erich Breinsberg (-1972), Rover engine

Thanks for all this new material Roman!

I mentioned Erich Breinsberg's Brabham-Rover on another thread recently so it's good to be able to identify it. How confident are you that it was a BT23?

Allen

My records:
1970: Buess, Joliat (-1972)
1971: Erich Breinsberg (-1972), Rover engineContenders would be:

BT23-3 ex-Perrot if it was rebuilt
BT23-4 ex-Habegger
BT23-7 ex-Montan Racing/ Helmut Gall if it was rebuilt
BT23-8 ex-Italian F3 (unlikely).

Perrot's and Habegger's would have to be favourites.

Allen

Sorry, I was being too literal. Beuss' car is the ex-Perrot BT23C-17 of course and another contender would be:

BT23C-8 ex-Terbeck

Thanks for all this new material Roman!

I mentioned Erich Breinsberg's Brabham-Rover on another thread recently so it's good to be able to identify it. How confident are you that it was a BT23?

Allen

twice in Alpl EHC races (1971, 72) listed as BT23 (in 71 with Rover)

Is that Alpl, Austria, near Graz?

I think so.... its surely Alpl - Krieglach. I was 10 times in Rechberg EHC race/and it is not faraway from Graz/, but never been to Alpl, but its the same area I THINK, better check the map also

I've just realised - we don't know which car Joliat had, do we?

He appears in French climbs in 1970 and I have a small picture of the car in one of the Echappement I picked up yesterday in Paris. Are the differences between a BT23 and a BT23C visible?

Echappement Aug 1971 p66. Copyright Echappement. 'Fair Use' claimed here as we're comenting on the photo. Is it a BT23 or a BT23C? Seems a lot of exhaust for an FVA doesn't it?
http://www.oldracingcars.com/images/copyrighted/BrabhamBT23-Joliat-Ech71-08-p66-400x.jpg (http://www.oldracingcars.com/images/copyrighted/BrabhamBT23-Joliat-Ech71-08-p66.jpg)

And on wrong side!

With the exhaust coming out under the top chassis rail I would suspect that it is a V6 or 8 - is this possible? Do we know that this is definitely a BT23? - the photo does not definitively rule out a BT21.

No we don't know it's definitely anything. The photo caption says BT23 and Roman said BT23 from his own research but anything's possible.

That's a big roll bar too, Joliat is mentioned here http://memoiresdestands.hautetfort.com/archive/2005/05/31/adam_potocki_dans_l_actualite.html but I dont have time at the moment to read through what looks like a very interesting page!

Andrew

The big rollhoop is a 1971(?) requirement replacing the previous bent coathanger!

He didn't use this in F2 so I'm not sure French hillclimbs would have the same requirements. A bent coathanger is a good description of the front suspension on those MEPs.

While you're here, what's this (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1844858#post1844858)?

Allen

A BT21 with a funny nose? (Not a 23!)

Actually, the rear uprights could even be BT15! The rollhoop update was FIA(?) mandated and was world wide I think. Titan told me about taking brand new chassis back to Arch to have the non International rolhoops removed and the new ones fitted.

A BT23 for sale that's not in Echappement!!

Could this be the Webster car?

Autoweek 28.11.70
Brabham BT23 rolling chassis, all new fabroids and aeroquip lines, YB11s, everything new or rebuilt. Lockheed alloy brakes. Beautiful car, must sell
$2200, Bob Christensen, 1728 Parrott Dr., San Mateo CA 94402 415-345-7190

Chris

A BT23..... that's not in Echappement!!Chris
& another, BT23 F-1 lookin' better,
http://davesgarage.ca/1968%20brabham.htm#

look at the height of the roll-over hoop !!!!

Sorry, I'm back in Echappement. Here's Joliat again, this time at Hautes-Vosges a month or two earlier in the season:

http://www.oldracingcars.com/images/copyrighted/Echappement-71-07-p79-Joliat.jpg

This time the results section calls the car a BT23C.

Doesn't even look like the same car, does it?

Allen

BT23-6

Now with David Jacobs, USA - ex Jodie Scheckter,

BT23-6 FVA 7027
1967 Whitley Racing Services for Robin Widdows
to Mitsubishi for Colt F2?
1968 Dave Webster, Canada or #9 ?
2003 ex Widdows for sale by Paragon?
2007 David Jacobs, USA - ex Jodie Scheckter,

Andrew, has David been given any history on the car? We're only missing 35 years out of its life.

Allen

BT23-6 FVA 7027
1967 Whitley Racing Services for Robin Widdows
to Mitsubishi for Colt F2?
1968 Dave Webster, Canada or #9 ?
2003 ex Widdows for sale by Paragon?
2007 David Jacobs, USA - ex Jodie Scheckter,

Andrew, has David been given any history on the car? We're only missing 35 years out of its life.

Allen

This is typical of the frustration associated with tracking down racing car histories! It is a matter of record for most new cars what they did in their first season. The rest is shrouded in ambiguity.

We can't even assume that what appears to be a particular car currently is the same car that was raced originally. After all we all know what happens to chassis plates!

:hair:

There is no way that the car in Canada can be 23-6 , if the car went to Japan for Mitsubishi / Colt engine etc. and then have the car in Canada by 1968, impossible time frame.

Bryan.

There is no way that the car in Canada can be 23-6 , if the car went to Japan for Mitsubishi / Colt engine etc. and then have the car in Canada by 1968, impossible time frame.
Bryan.
Exactly, thats why I just threw it in to the ring without comment to see what ripples it created. BT23C-6 and BT23C-10 went to South Africa in 1969. #10 came back within the year but #6 went on to Arnold Charlton in 1970 and there after vanished. 1970 looks like the year Jodie left SA as a 20 year old. Its possible he was given a drive but how BT23-6 and BT23C-6 have got mixed I do wonder.
I will ask David who by the way, is going to be at Phillip Island for the historics, Bryan I think one of us is going to have to go!
Andrew

Or could BT23/6 just have been in Jody's collection? He has quite a few cars and they're not all ones he raced.

Well Allen it seems not so, Who was G.Hyatt, anyone know?

1967 Robin Widdows
1967 Dr. Erlich
69-74 G. Hyatt
74-77 R. Strange
77-84 D. McLaughlin
84-88 P. Coleman
89-90 Chris Holland
90-97 Jay Gilpin
97-00 Barry Marquardt
00-05 Bob Baker
05-06 ?
06- David Jacobs

The car had a BDA engine in 79. Apparently Jody Scheckter owned it in 69,
fitted with a 1 litre MAE and run in Formula 3, by Jody.

Glenn Hyatt, F4 runner? He had a BT28 in 1972 so not sure what he was doing with a BT23 throughout that period.

Also the man behind Delta Racing Cars, once of Farnham Surrey.

Perhaps someone on that list had a vivid imagination when he applied for the FIA form.

I hope you're not accusing my old friend Riley Strange of being up to something dodgy!

I hope you're not accusing my old friend Riley Strange of being up to something dodgy!
I am sure FIA forms didn't come in 'till after '77, he's quite safe! -(about 79?)

The BT23 of J. Joliat is in Belgium.
I have got the chassis number somewhere but I have to look for it.

Sorry. This is the wrong place for BT23. (No longer - JT!)

As I've posted on the BT36 thread, Echappement May 1976 p57 contains an interview with Michel Salvi that reveals he has had several Brabhams: first a Brabham-Honda of some sort for 1971, then a 1300cc Brabham BT21 for 1974and then, after wrecking the BT21 at Saint-Hyppolite (1975 I think) he bought a BT23 from Jacques Joliat to continue his season.

So:
Brabham BT23 or BT23C 'the Joliat car'
Jacques Joliat [CH] 1970-1972 (then retained unused(?) to 1975)
Michel Salvi [CH] 1975-1976

Allen

I think that i