Birrana

Can people add more about the Birrana cars that ran in Australian F2 in the 1970s and then in the Atlantic series?

Two of these cars appeared in Britain in 1975 Atlantic, entered by Bob and Marj Brown for Bobby Muir and Dean Hosking. Then an F2 car raced in Europe in 76 before the Browns bought a Chevron B35 for Muir to use.

Were the Browns entrants who happened to bring over a couple of chassis for Australian drivers, or was this a works operation running in Britain?
We seem to have chassis numbers for most of the Birranas that are appearing in the Tasman and Gold Star. Can anyone throw any light on the identity of the two British cars? At the moment they are [1] and [2] in my records - which is almost certainly wrong. Most race reports don't even give a model number, but I have an entry list from Snetterton in June 75 which describes them as Birrana 273s.

Chris

Chris.
Bob and Marj Brown ran Enno Buesselmann in Australian Van Heusen in 1974 , in the first two rounds , after that he was replaced by Bob Muir, the car was 273-009 , but had been updated with 274 nose and rear wing.
I will try and confirm from Malcolm Ramsay the actual ch.no.s of all production cars .

At this stage I would be reasonably confident of appling
273-009 to Muir in U.K.
273-006 to Dean Hosking in U.K. only ran once or twice.
I believe the 273-009 became the Minos , this car was written off [fully] at Wanneroo Park a few years later by Bill Downey.
I will also ask Malcolm re. works assistance in U.K. but I would think this was a private effort.
Bryan.

Two Birrana 274s ran in the 1977 Peter Stuyvesant series in New Zealand.

274-012 was driven by Wolfgang Prejawa and was fitted with an Paul England T/C Ford.

274-016 was driven by Graham Baker. It had been raced in Australia by Chas Talbot and was fitted with an England BDA in New Zealand.

Milan Fistonic and Chris .
Agree those two CH.NO. as they are 2 that we have always had for those 2 cars.
Graham Vercoe also confirms -010 for Crawford and -012 for Prejawa.
What Vercoe advises re. the previous history in Aust. for -016 is totally incorrect , the car was new to Chas Talbot.
Bryan.

Funny this should come up as I was just entering 1974 Australian Gold Star races into my database and found Bruce Allison's Birrana 274.

Here is the 1 Sep 1974 Surfers Paradise race (http://www.oldracingcars.com/f5000/results/result.asp?RaceID=A74B) (please note this is very much a draft as I only have the Autosport report so far). Does anyone know what car Allison was driving. The report says it was a BDA - would this have been a 1600cc for Aussie F2 rules?

Do Birrana build records exist anywhere?

Thanks

Allen

In the August 1974 edition of Racing Car News there is a piece about Birrana stopping production of cars for general sale to customers and instead building and running cars as a works team.

The report states that "a total of 17 cars have now been produced by the firm, including eight of the new shape, and all are doing very well in the hands of such drivers as Leo Geoghegan, Bob Muir, Dean Hoskinng, Paul King, Andrew Miedecke and Neill Rear."

Allen, see my message a few notes up page re. Malcolm Ramsay, who was/is Birrana Engineering.
I haven't figured out how to do quotes yet.
I have virtually all Birrana sorted and will as I said try to get records from Malcolm.

Hobby and Toyland , ent. drv. Bruce Allison.
Car Birrana 274-017 , Eng Hart 416B fuel inj. Ford Twin cam.
Report would be incorrect as cars in Aust.F2 all ran 8 valve engines for a few years yet.
I will look and see if the Barry Lock Kaditcha had a ch. no. and advise.
Birrana's last ch. no. was -020 , however this no. was used twice .
An F3 car built in 1976 ch.no. 376-020 and Malcolm's own personal last car a F.Atl. ch.no. A78-020.
Bryan.

Allen, Checked Barry Lock's car , no ch. no's seem to have ever been applied to his early cars at least , later he built some big 5 litre sports-racing cars , also one absolutely stunning 2.0 litre Chevron B26 style car with a Cosworth-Vega.
Bryan.

Bryan

Another Birrana appears in the 1979 Rothmans series driven by Bob Creasy. This is said to be '8', "a new monocoque tub built for Peter Brock in '73 on to which he put the mechanicals from his earlier 272, the 273 then went to WA's Zampatti then to Creasy (Zampatti now has the 272, built up again with new parts)". All this from Chequered Flag May 1979.

Also in 1979, Bill Downey races the "Minos-Ford" at the Australian GP but the 50 Years book says he entered a Birrana 273 "but raced the Minos instead". Were they effectively one and the same car? Is this the same Minos that Muir raced in F2 in Europe in 1976?

Allen

So, to summarise so far:

272-??? - Ramsey and guests in 1972
272-??? - Brock 1972 - Zampatti ...
273-006 - ... Dean Hosking (UK) 1975
273-008 - Brock 73 - Zampatti - Creasy
273-009 - ... Buesselmann & Muir 74; UK 1975; became Minos
274-010 - ... Crawford
274-012 - ... Prejawa 1974
274-016 - Talbot 74 ... Baker
274-017 - Allison
376-020 - F3 1976
A78-020 - Ramsey 1978

That's a pretty good start. Bryan - how does the Barry Lock Kaditcha fit into this? I didn't quite understand your reference to it. Were Birranas and Kaditchas related somehow?

Allen

Allen, Birrana and Kaditcha are not related , the only reason I mentioned the latter is that the car is also on the grid in that race meeting and I decided sooner or later you would ask for ch.no. so got in first.

Some other numbers , although you may not need them.

374-011 , F3 to John Blanden for Dean Hosking in Aust.
374-013 , F3 based , BUT with 1600cc ford pushrod.
274-018 , Neil Rear ,1600cc twin cam.

The MUIR car and 1 or 2 of the early cars are still confused , and I need time to get sorted .
Birrana also built a few F.Fords and the ch. no.s are slightly confusing .
First car was a F.Ford ch.no. AA71/1
Need to talk to Bobby Muir , who I should be able to contact via Bob Brittan of Rennmax .
Suggest you don't go any further till I come back to you , especially re. Hoskings car in U.K. in 1975.
Also I need to get full story on Minos .
Bryan.

Bryan

Don't forget to ask Bob for his production records!!

(as if!)

Allen

Allen.
We have stolen Chris's thread.
Bob Brittan. Bob never put numbers on cars, via carefull notes from conversations with Bob over many years I have a fairly accurate record of what was built, listed below , but definately not THE END.

1st. car was a Lotus 18 style car using components from Noel Halls Cooper . Car called Rennmax Climax.

Then appears to be a total of 7 Lotus 20 style cars, most Formula jnr. but 2 as 1500cc with superchargers.

Then the one and only Brabham BT14 style car . This was Max Stewarts 2nd. Rennmax.

Then there appears to be about 7 cars plus a few spare frames of the BT23 series , eg Max Stewarts Mildren Waggot , which is the tubeframe car as opposed to K.B.'s Mildren Waggot submarine car.
This series is the ones that you bump into in late 60's and 70's in Tasman races in the main.

Apart from these cars ,there are also the MK1 Formula Vees, 7 off from memory , the Mildren Maser. sports car , then the fabulous 2nd. series sports cars 3 off , plus the couple of Lotus 23b frames and customer completed cars such as Lionel Ayers M.R.C.23b.
All not forgetting he probably at one time or another repaired most if not all Brabham and Lotus cars in the country.

I know he still has his records , and I may be able to go through them with him sometime , but he is still more interested in the next car, not as he keeps telling me all those old bloody piles of junk.

Minos./ Birrana . I have left a message on Malcolm Ramsay's phone , so he will call sooner or later.
Minos , I spent some time on the phone to Bobby Muir.
Both Birrana's in U.K. were for Bob , and Dean Hosking was only there as mechanic , and to get a drive if poss.
however Bob said he thought Dean only got 1 race.
One of the 2 cars was stripped and the tub modified and used as the Minos , but all other parts were newly made , a gearbox was purchased from Hesketh etc.
All the parts came back in boxes and on return Malcolm Ramsay slid a new?? tub underneath and it all became one again.
So at this point I need Mal Ramsay to sort it out for me and then I can figure out what chassis became/was what.
Basically 2 cars went out , sort of 2.5 came back , 1x Birrana , 1x Minos and 1x Birrana in boxes.

That is as far as I can get at this point.
You will have to wait for the next exciting installment.

Bryan.

Allen.
I totally left out all the MK2 Formula Vees and the beaut BN.6/7 F2 cars , 5 off .
Don't forget things like the Rorstan Porsche in which Bryan Faloon was killed in N.Z. this was a Britto car.

273-007 - ‘works’ entry for Geoghegan in Singapore 1973, then Tony Stewart ANF2, Don Ubergang 73/74

273-010 - Malcolm Ramsay’s ‘works’ car 1973 (and Geoghegan Macau), then Crawford. Chas Talbot 1981

274-015 - Geoghegan’s 1974 works car > Geoff Brabham 1975

274-016 - believed destroyed in Baker’s 1977 Wigram crash

David

Thanks for filling those gaps. Birranas are turning out to me one of the best documented and most well-understood of all the ANF2/Atlantic/Pacific cars.

While you're in town, could you help me understand the difference between ANF2 and the later Pacific formula. ANF2 seems to have been for 1600cc cars but Allan Grice seems to have run the ex-Stewart Mildren-Waggot in AF2 in 1972 and I thought that was a 1900cc or 2-litre car. In one report it's described as a Mildren-England, which confused me further! During that 1972-1977 period, how similar were the two formulae?

Allen

I should really leave this to someone who knows what they're talking about....
IIRC, ANF2 started as a 1500 formula in the 1960s, as a step up from FJ. Somewhere along the line it changed from 1500 to 1600 (and FJ became ANF3)
The class received a big boost in 1973 (?) with a new big-money series, when top drivers from other formulae were persuaded to take part
When they returned to their F5000s and touring cars, ANF2 became little more than a club formulae - still 1600, but restricted - again, IIRC - to twincams
At the time of the collapse of the Tasman Series, there was a big argument about whether the contributing countries should retain F5000, or switch to F/Atlantic (Pacific). As is now history (as they say), Australia stuck with 5000 after 1976, NZ went to Pacific
There remained a strong Australian lobby in favour of FP, headed by Bob Jane, who staged races at Calder and Adelaide - and ultimately ran the AGP to the same regs. FP allowed four-valve BDD engines, ANF2, while it continued, was limited to twincams.
Cutting to the chase, there was no FP in Australia in 1977 (or before). And I can't explain your Grice dilemma, unless it was a misprint

ANF2 was run for single cam 1600cc from the late 70s and is the way it is now.
The main difference between a Pacific and a Two was tyre width and the single cam engine. (the ANF2 had narrower tyres)
CAMS has been trying to kill off F2 ever since Formula Holden started and has not yet succeded!

Allen.
To any outsider it was very confusing , pretty simple if you were inside so to speak.
It all became formal in 1964 for the start of the Formal Tasman Championship as opposed to the Intercontinental series previously.
So in 1964 we had ,
A.N.F. 1 , 2.5 litres
A.N.F. 1 1/2 , 1.5 litres
A.N.F. 2 1100cc.
1.5 Litres was either 1500cc pushrod ford or twincam ford dominated but not exclusively.
1100cc was simply F.JR. cars and rules , as we had started later than everybody else with F.J. and the cars and eng. size fitted in , I don't think the F.J. rules were absolute , but it was very close.
All stayed this way , Cosworth even built special engines for the twin cam ford competitors , which was the eng. to have , this eng. was designated Mk XV1.
In 1968 the A.N.F. 1 1/2 was altered to A.N.F. 2 which was then increased to 1600cc.
A.N.F. 1 stayed the same for 2.5 .
A.N.F. 2 stayed the same capacity at 1100cc but was renamed A.N.F. 3. The 1100cc class stayed the same untill , I think 1972 , I have just been looking up programmes and it is dificult to discern . However by 1973 A.N.F. 3 had been increased to 1300cc.
Obviously by then A.N.F. 1 had allowed in 2.0 and 5.0 litres as well as 2.5 still being allowed.
A.N.F. 2 continued on untill 1-1-1978 when a totally new single cam F2 was introduced , eliminating all the twin cam ford based engines and ultimately the eng. to have was a Judd Golf .
If you need clarification please ask.
After the 5000's finally died we had 1600cc BDAs as David has said.

Engines , even more confusing to outsiders, best summarised by saying you could have a Waggott 1.6 , 1.85 , or 2.0 eng. or you could have a Ford Twincam built or rebuilt or maintained by Waggott.
I don't know if Merv. Waggott put his cam covers on the Ford eng. , but I think Paul England did, and the engines were then , the same as U.K. called say a R.E.S. or Cosworth or Hart or whatever ford .
E.G. England Ford , all it meant was it was aFord twin cam played with by whoever.
The only way to tell from this distance is to ask me , then I can see what individual races were and advise what eng. it would have been.
The worst period would be around 1970/1/2/3 I would think. Waggott only built ,we think 13 of his T.C.4.V engines , 1 x 1600cc , 1x interim 1850cc , both these iron ford block based , the other 11 alloy 2.0 litres .

Hope this assists. Bryan.

Bryan

Wow - thanks. This stuff is harder than F5000!

The reason for the question is that I've just been adding in the 1972 Aussie Gold Star races (taken from the RCN Yearbook - you can see the rather pitiful collection so far here (http://www.oldracingcars.com/F5000/results/racelist.asp?CategoryID=A5). John Harvey's BT36-Waggott at Sandown appears to have been a 2-litre and therefore competing in 'F1'. But Allan Grice's Mildren-Waggott at Oran Park, Surfers and Warwick Farm appears to have got points in 'F2'. At least once, a report referred to it as a Mildren-England.

On a related subject (but taking us even further away from Birranas) I have never figured out when that interim 1850cc engine was used. Probably just a few races but the reports I have are unclear.

Many thanks

Allen

Allen , how do I reply,
A hell of a lot for which you are searching is within a few foot of me as I type,a lot if not all , or nearly all in the following , Racing Car News , Aust. Competion Yearbooks, Aust. Motor Racing Annual which went till 1976 so covers most , I don't have Chequered Flag esp. when Barry Lake [who I see you talk to elsewhere ] was very good in Barry's time, also I have the draft Tasman books that I was working on for the F1R.
Perfectly happy to assist , but so I don't have magazine's etc. all over the place , maybe in chrnological order, you advise starting date.

To answer Brabham BT36- Waggott , whenever John Harvey drove it , it was 2.0 T.C.4.V.
In 1972 , Grice could well have had the 1600cc T.C.4.V. to go against any F.V.A. cars running, esp. as it is the Mildren and not a Rennmax, although the Mildren was actually a Rennmax.

Bob Brittan has up to now not been willing , in a very friendly way , to sort out his cars , I can't even get a definition of a BN2 as opposed to a BN3 .
I went to Graham Howards this morning and we did a swap, I ended up with about a 100 1969/70/71/72/73 Autosports to fill gaps and he got my ALbert Park 1953 Autographed by Stan Jones programme and other prog. I don't reference.
Some of your questions are very hard to answer unless I go back and read at least the whole years magazines , so I can discern what was happening at the time , so that the pieces all 'jell'.

Apart from anything else I have just recieved my B.R.M. book , hell is this a serious bit of work.
You know Doug Nye , suggest to him his next book should be on Jo Marquart , then we can really clear some mysteriesre. GRD , Modus , Huron , Argo AND jO'S continual involement with Jorg Obermoser and the fabulous Toj's.
5% commision for suggestion will be greatly rec'd.

What year do you wish to start on , and I could slowly accumulate info, and then post in one year at a time, but it would take a while as I am desperately trying to finish the BT35 to go race at Willowbank historics at the end of July. This will be the first time when we start the BDE in the next few days when the car fires up that is has had an eng. in it since 1977.That is a quarter of a century.

Re. the BT36 of Harvey , I had been waiting for the inevitable question , probably from Chris of why it is a BT36 but is chassis no BT30-27 , I left it hanging out there but no response.
The car was ordered by Bob Jane Corp. as they were also going to do their own Jane eng. however this fell by the wayside after a considerable lenghth of time and they decided to use a Waggott , but Ron T. must hae laid it down and allocated a ch.no. and also ordered in an FT200 , but it looks like the del. date kept on being deffered untill it finally left the works on 23-3-71 well into BT36 production and it was very definately a BT36 , strangly it left the factory the day before my BT35-8 went to Ed. Reeves.
I have in front of me on Motor Racing Developments letterhead a letter signed by George Thornton confirming del. date , my guess is that Ron T. had the 30 frame etc. and as every thing was drawn out , needed the 30 for a rebuild or to replace a customers wreck and sold it and then when Bob Jane Corp told them to send they gave them a 36 , but had already allocated the 30-27 number.
The gearbox no. is way out of sinc. with say mine which is 599 and still in car today.
For Chris's records BT36-6 went to A.C/A [ Reuteman] with FVA.0182 and gearbox FT200-678 on 8/7/71.
Regards Bryan.
Advise where you wish to start.

Bryan

I am very grateful for your generous offer and fully intend to accept it but I would add one thing: I am really not in any hurry at all. I started my F5000 research in 1999 and have several years to go before I even have all the F5000 results in place, let alone car-by-car histories. Also, it has been taking far too much of my time recently (my 5-year-old would testify to this right now if she was able to type - she's trying to interest me in her Peter Rabbit drawing at the moment) so a slower rate of progress would be desirable. I think Chris's Atlantic research has the momentum at present and I'm very happy with that.

That said, the place I'd like to start is with the 1971 Australian Gold Star - the first domestic Aussie F5000. As you'll have seen from my link above, I don't even have race dates for the 1971 Gold Star races yet and my knowledge of the cars that raced is slim. Do you have a easy accessed source of race reports that you could copy for me? Then I'll come back when I've digested those and queue up some questions about the cars.

That way, we don't have to get into the Lola T330/2s for a good while yet ;) .

Shall I start a new 'Australian Gold Star 1971' thread?

Best regards

Allen

Can someone tell me, which car Jack Klaver had, he raced in AF2 between 1981 and 1985 in a Birrana, was apparently the ex Lew Wade car, which would be the Paul King F3 car???? Anyway the reason i mention it is because i remember seeing it at Calder in 1985 at the Formula 2 round, by then it had full side pods and a Cheetah mk8 type nose and was Golf powered, also wondered about the car Mike Quinn drove in 81, this car had full sidepods and i think maybe even ground effects. Not sure on model numbers of either car.

Curt

Amonfan , The Lew Wade car was new to them, and was /is ch.no. 374-014, first appearing for the Van Heusen series in 1974 as a F3 with a 1300cc Brian Sampson Toyota Corolla.
I can't tell yet whose car Mike Quinn ran.
A lot of the Birrana's were altered to comply with the new F2 and staggered on for a considerable length of time,untill finally being pensioned off.

Bryan.

'Bout time for another summary of where we've got to:

272-??? - Ramsey and guests in 1972
272-??? - Brock 1972 - Zampatti ...
273-006 - ... Dean Hosking (UK) 1975
273-007 - ‘works’ entry for Geoghegan in Singapore 1973, then Tony Stewart ANF2, Don Ubergang 73/74
273-008 - Brock 73 - Zampatti - Creasy
273-009 - ... Buesselmann & Muir 74; UK 1975; tub may have been used for Minos F2
273-010 - Malcolm Ramsay’s ‘works’ car 1973 (and Geoghegan Macau), then Crawford. Chas Talbot 1981
374-011 - F3 to John Blanden for Dean Hosking in Aust.
274-012 - ... Prejawa 1974
374-013 - F3 based , BUT with 1600cc ford pushrod.
374-014 - Lew Wade car first appearing for the Van Heusen series in 1974 as a F3 with a 1300cc Brian Sampson Toyota Corolla.
274-015 - Geoghegan’s 1974 works car > Geoff Brabham 1975
274-016 - Talbot 74 ... Baker; believed destroyed in Baker’s 1977 Wigram crash
274-017 - Allison
274-018 - Neil Rear ,1600cc twin cam.
376-020 - F3 1976
A78-020 - Ramsey 1978
AA71/1 - First FF

Pretty impressive given we haven't even got the production records yet. Have I got this right? Anything else we can add to this picture?

Allen

I missed one post:

374-014 - Lew Wade car first appearing for the Van Heusen series in 1974 as a F3 with a 1300cc Brian Sampson Toyota Corolla; later Paul King for F3; later Jack Klaver in AF2 between 1981 and 1985 and highly modified by 1985

Allen.
Malcolm Ramsay has no records.
Malcolm can't remember the specifics that we need .
I have another source , John Holmes , who owns about 5/6 of the cars, but don't have time at the moment to carry further..

Regards Bryan.

I found the following Tony Alcock article in a magazine:

"I always liken designers, fabricators and mechanics as the racing equivalent to a TV production team. We know that the actors get most of the kudos and recognition, but of course the truth of the matter is that without firstly, the script writer, then the producer, director, film crew and so on, then the actor would be nowhere. Now, although the modern-day race driver is an important part of the final product, it is the men behind him. the fabricators, welders, machinists, fibreglass men, painters, platers, etc., who make up the initial 80 per cent. of the total effort.
It is our job, Mal Ramsay and myself, at Birrana Cars to assemble all these tradesmen in the correct sequence to present a product such as a 2/374 range of cars. Basically our respective roles are something like this:
Starting with the previous year's car, we decide on the areas which we feel need improvement and together with experiments which we have tried in some form or another during the year. we begin to formu-late some sort of basic outline for our new model. At this stage I usually work at home so that work can be achieved without inter- ruption enabling the car to be drawn up as quickly as possible.
Whilst I do most of the basic design work. I reckon that two heads are better than one, so there is constant communication between Mal and myself. At the same time as the drawings start coming through. he is organising supply of raw materials, radiator suppliers, rack and pinion assemblies, pattern makers, etc.
From the basic chassis drawings which comprise an overall side and top elevation, there are detailed ones made of each bulkhead and suspension pickups, rear frames, suspension systems, body shape, etc. From these more detailed drawings, Brian Farguar. our welder, con-structs the chassis and suspension jigs and from these the bulkheads and wishbones. Mike lobanof machines the chassis and suspension bushes, discs, wheels, castings and so on, John Porter, our "March" immigre. specialises in detail fabrication such as wing brackets, radius arms, parrallel link brackets, header tanks, etc. I usually fold up the tubs and Mal and I both-attack the body mock-up prior to him doing the moulds. Our other man, Peter Nightingale, <;an usually be found stripping and rebuilding our existing cars as well as maintaining our Hart engines and Hewland gearboxes.
All this. of course, is an oversimplification of the effort and just plain hard yakka, which often means an ainighter or two, but it is the general scene, which goes on at Elfin's or Bowin's or any other manu-facturer.
As you can see it really isn't very exciting or glamorous all this back-room work. but to us it's all worth it as the frustrations and heartaches suddenly vanish .when our sparkling new creation is wheeled out to the start line ready for its first race."

Chris.
www.MotorsportArchive.com

Allen

The car Geoff Brabham raced in the 1975 Autralian Formula 2 Championship was the ex Neil Rear Car 274-018. The Geoghegan car of 274-015 went to Alfredo Costanzo in 1975.

Curt

Originally posted by David McKinney
274-015 - Geoghegan’s 1974 works car > Geoff Brabham 1975 Originally posted by Amonfan
The car Geoff Brabham raced in the 1975 Autralian Formula 2 Championship was the ex Neil Rear Car 274-018. The Geoghegan car of 274-015 went to Alfredo Costanzo in 1975. OK, that's our first difference of opinion.

David, Curt - do you know your original sources for these identifications?

Allen

Allen,

I got my source from the Australian Competition Yearbook 1976 Edition, and it also mentions it in a Racing Car News race report. When i was younger i assumed the Brabham car was the Geoghegan car as they both ran the same livery. Having done some checking though, Neil Rears car suddenly doesnt appear in any races in 1975 race reports even in WA and SA racing where he usually competed.

Allen, would you like the full championship results for 74 and 75, i can email them to you if you like.

Sorry Allen, can't remember and it's a bit difficult to check on oiginal sources in the time available (ie, nil).
Without discounting the Neil Rear connection, I would just say that WA cars tended to be sold in WA, though that of course doesn't preclude this particular car's sale to the east

All .

I rang Neil Rear over in W.A.
He sold car to Geoff Brabham , as that is the case ,as I suspected , then car went to Ray Winter to replace ex. Mildren Yellow Submarine, and is now in hands of John Holmes in Toowoomba Qld.
Bryan.

Thanks Bryan
That's that then!
(and I don't have to face the prospect of trying to find my references)

Originally posted by Amonfan
I got my source from the Australian Competition Yearbook 1976 Edition, and it also mentions it in a Racing Car News race report. When i was younger i assumed the Brabham car was the Geoghegan car as they both ran the same livery. Having done some checking though, Neil Rears car suddenly doesnt appear in any races in 1975 race reports even in WA and SA racing where he usually competed. Thanks Curt!

Originally posted by Amonfan
Allen, would you like the full championship results for 74 and 75, i can email them to you if you like.You bet!! :) :) :rotate: :beer: :) :D


And thanks Bryan - that's a wonderfully direct no-nonsense approach to resolving a problem!

Allen

272-??? - Ramsey and guests in 1972
272-??? - Brock 1972 - Zampatti ...
three other early cars unknown
273-006 - Unknown 1973 - Unknown 1974 ... Dean Hosking (UK) 1975
273-007 - Geoghegan 1973 (‘works’ entry in Singapore 1973), then Tony Stewart ANF2, Don Ubergang 73/74
273-008 - Brock 1973 - Zampatti - Creasy
273-009 - Unknown 1973 ... Buesselmann & Muir 1974; UK 1975; tub may have been used for Minos F2
273-010 - Malcolm Ramsay 1973 ('works' car) and Geoghegan at Macau, then Crawford 19?? ... Chas Talbot 1981
374-011 - F3 to John Blanden for Dean Hosking in Aust.
274-012 - Prejawa 1974 ... (then who?)
374-013 - Unknown (F3 based, BUT with 1600cc ford pushrod)
374-014 - Lew Wade 1974 (for Van Heusen series as F3 with a 1300cc Brian Sampson Toyota Corolla) ... later Paul King for F3 ... later Jack Klaver in AF2 between 1981 and 1985 and highly modified by 1985
274-015 - Geoghegan 1974 (works car) - Alfredo Costanzo 1975
274-016 - Talbot 1974 ... Baker; believed destroyed in Baker’s 1977 Wigram crash
274-017 - Allison 1974 ... (then who?)
274-018 - Neil Rear 1974 (1600cc twin cam) - Geoff Brabham 1975 - Ray Winter to replace ex. Mildren Yellow Submarine, and is now in hands of John Holmes (Toowoomba, Qld)
376-020 - F3 1976
A78-020 - Ramsey 1978
AA71/1 - First FF

I've highlighted a few gaps above - quite a few of the early cars have patchy histories.

It's amazing how much we've assembled.

Allen

Allen,

The Bruce Allison Birrana 274-017 went to Len Goodwin in mid 1975 who came out of a 4 yr retirement.

Also Jim Evans in a Birrana 374 F3 in 1974, raced as a F3 with Corolla power then a Ford Crossflow. Was badly bent at Amaroo Park, and the tub was replaced, no chassis number. Then had another accident at Oran park and was sold in this condition to Richard Steigler who then sold it to Paul McCurdy in 1975 who fitted a Honda engine to it.

Chassis 374-11 the John Blanden owned car driven by Dean Hosking was sold to Ian Cook, who brought the car for its spare engine. Then sold to Richard Steigler who then sold it to David Booth.

Peter Warren in a Birrana 273, 75-76 (its called a 374 in 75 and a 273, then a 274 in 76??), i think its safe to say its a 273, going by most of the race reports of 1976, i just have to work out who's car it is..... HELP

Car 274-015 ex Geoghegan/Costanzo went to Greame Smith early 1976

I'll keep working on this guys

Curt

Another one............

Bill Stoddart purchased a brand new Birrana 374 from the works in mid 1976, and installed a Corolla engine into it. Could this be the 376?????

Curt

Im back

Allen
i have taken your list and filled some gaps, well tried anyway, this is hard, lol

272-??? - Ramsey and guests in 1972
272-??? - Brock 1972 - Zampatti ...
three other early cars unknown
273-006 - Unknown 1973 - Unknown 1974 ... Dean Hosking (UK) 1975
273-007 - Geoghegan 1973 (‘works’ entry in Singapore 1973), then Tony Stewart ANF2, Don Ubergang 73/74
273-008 - Brock 1973 - Zampatti - Creasy
273-009 - Unknown 1973 ... Buesselmann & Muir 1974; UK 1975; tub may have been used for Minos F2
273-010 - Malcolm Ramsay 1973 ('works' car) and Geoghegan at Macau, then Crawford 1974-78 sold to Barry Ward 79 then ... Chas Talbot 1981
374-011 - F3 to John Blanden for Dean Hosking in Aust.Ian Cook, who brought the car for its spare engine. Then sold to Richard Steigler who then sold it to David Booth
274-012 - Prejawa 1974 ... (then who?)
374-013 - Jim Evans in a Birrana 374 F3 in 1974, raced as a F3 with Corolla power then a Ford Crossflow. Was badly bent at Amaroo Park, and the tub was replaced, no chassis number. Then had another accident at Oran park and was sold in this condition to Richard Steigler who then sold it to Paul McCurdy in 1975 who fitted a Honda engine to it. Then to Joe Vorst in 1979 who was reportedly fitting a Datsun engine to it.
374-014 - Lew Wade 1974 (for Van Heusen series as F3 with a 1300cc Brian Sampson Toyota Corolla) ... later Paul King for F3 ... later Jack Klaver in AF2 between 1981 and 1985 and highly modified by 1985
274-015 - Geoghegan 1974 (works car) - Alfredo Costanzo 1975, to Greame Smith mid 1976 to 82, then to Neil Richardson late 82 who still had the car in 86
274-016 - Talbot 1974 ... Baker; believed destroyed in Baker’s 1977 Wigram crash
274-017 - Allison 1974 , Len Goodwin in mid 1975
274-018 - Neil Rear 1974 (1600cc twin cam) - Geoff Brabham 1975 - Ray Winter to replace ex. Mildren Yellow Submarine, and is now in hands of John Holmes (Toowoomba, Qld)
376-020 - F3 1976
A78-020 - Ramsey 1978
AA71/1 - First FF

Notes
Paul Liston owned a Birrana 274 from 1978 to about 82 then im not sure what happened to it. It was raced by Allan Goldsmith in 1979, Colin Jack laste 79 to 80 featuring Wranglers sponsorship and later sidepods, then Mike Quinn raced it in 1981.

Owen Jones owned a Birrana 274 Ford in 1978 then the car appears for sale, then Liston has a car. although no one mentions who the previous owners were.

Tom Brickley appears in the mid 80s in a car called a Birrana 376, later raced by Don Hewitt, it features body work similar to the Liston car, ie full sidepods.

Barry Johnson appears from about 1982 onwards in a Birrana 374 Datsun, assuming Vorst did fit a Datsun to his car, Johnsons car could either be the Booth car or the ex jim Evans car.

Rick Purvis in 1982 in a Birrana in WA
Then in same year another race, Joe Riccardo and Gary Martin in Birrana's, Martins being a 274, both in WA


I'll keep trying

Curt

OK Here we go again

In 1978 John Smith had a Birrana 273 for sale as a rolling chassis. It was an ex Bob Muir works car raced in the UK. Paul Liston purchased the car and ran Alan Goldsmith in it. So it appears Paul had 2 cars, i do vaguely remeber Alan Goldsmith wrecking a Birrana at Amaroo in 1979, so im wondering if this is the car and that maybe it was never rebuilt. Later in the Year Liston has Colin Jack in a Birrana 274 as i have mentioned earlier.

The Owen Jones Birrana is not the 274 Ford that Colin Jack raced as i have since discovered that Jones still owned his car late in 1980, which was alos Ford powered.

Curt

I have done lots of cross checking here and reading Rob Janneys Racing Car News reports etc. For many years he refers to the Zampatti/Creasy car as a 274, ran a 2 litre at some point, then back to 1.6 litre in early 76, then sold to Bob creasy later that year. Zampatti was thinking of retiring, then purchases another car, ex Bob Muir 1975 UK car. He races it for a few seasons in WA, then sells the car to Bill Downey, its generally referred to in race reports as a Birrana 273 or just Birrana. I have seen pictures of the car, and its still in the same bodywork as raced by Muir in the Uk.

So going by Brians info, that this car was written off, and my vague account of Goldsmith wrecking the other ex Muir UK car, it would seem both UK cars are no more.

Allen and everybody else.

This will fill a lot of gaps and I [THINK ONLY] just about as far we can go at this point.

001 F.Ford --John Goss 1971 , David Mingay 1972 to Warwick Marks to current Paul Hamilton. CH.NO. AA71-1
002 272 F2 Birrana Cars , Malclm Ramsay, Henk Woelders , Peter Brock , Zampatti, poss. the car now back with Zampatti with a 2.0 Waggott , bought back as a birthday present for Zampatti by his family. This cars history is really confusing as we believed some of the cars components were rebuilt into 008. The jury is still well and truly OUT on this at the moment.
003, F.Ford 1972 Steve Dewhurst , now with Ken Williams , ch.pl. says 501, and no I don't know why.
004 F.Ford , 1972 or 1973 can't ascertain . for Jon Davidson , now with John Holmes , Toowoomba , QLD.
005 F.Ford , 1972/3 Andrew Miedecke ,, now , unknown.
006 273 F2, Birrana Cars , then Paul Feltham , then Bob and Marj. Brown drv. Mal Ramsay. then ?? prob. U.K. Dean Hosking / spare , now ????
007 273 , 1973 Birrana Cars -Tony Stewart
1974 Don Uerbergang- then Peter Warren
now John Holmes.
008 273 Peter Brock sold March 1974 to Bernie Zampatti and fitted at some stage with a 2.0 Waggott, refitted with 1.6 twin cam and sold to Bob Creasy August 1976 and sometimes called a 274 due to updated panels . In June 1977 fitted with a Cosworth BDD , sold Jan. 1982 to E.A.J. Purvis of W.A. ,sold March 1984 to A.McIntyre/ R.Harmon .
By 1991 with Bruce Mactier of Victoria. U nknown since and may be the car sold to Zampatti's family.
009-273 Bob and Marj Brown Busselman /Muir to U.K. 1975 maybe Minos later . ????
010-273 Birrana Cars 1973 , 1974 Graham Crawford , also Leo G. etc.etc.
011 , Blanden , 8-1-74 --3-3-75, Ian Cook 3-3-75-15-7-75, then to Richard Steigler 15-7-75 till 4-12-75, then to David Booth 4-12-75 till 20-5-80 , then to Terry Harris 20-5-80 till 1-2-96 , then to Phil Shaw , retained untill about 3 months ago , now with Ross Hodgson of Sydney.
012 274 , but believed late delivery, used by Wolfy [his nickname] I saw car circa 1980 , being refurbished by Mick Kouros and fitted with MK.9 instead of FT200, and a suspicion by myself it was ex. Paul Liston's works where it may have been cannibalised for components for the Liston F2 car,car has never re-appeared and is still I believe with the same owner . I know who and where but will respect his privacy.
013 , is also owned by Ross Hodgson.
014 ??? don't know present status.
015 , is now with , and has been for about 10 years , Noel and Andrew Robson of Melb. Yes Allen the same Robsons with the Lola F5000.
017. for many years with Kerry Luckins of Melbourne
018 , with John Holmes Qld.
Speedway car S74 with John Holmes .
020 376 , now with Gary Hancock of Gosford N.S.W. , Don Hewitt owned at one stage , Gemini eng. also others .
020 A78 F/Atlantic, Mal Ramsay , now with John Holmes.

I have prob. left something out , or given you more questions to ask, I am not familiar with any of the 1600cc F2 pushrod happenings , as I was well into historics at this stage.

Bryan.

This thread was overdue for a summary. I've attempted to combine all the information provided by Bryan, Curt and David into a cohesive whole. We seem to have made incredible progress on these cars!

AA71-1 (F.Ford) - John Goss 1971 - David Mingay 1972 - Warwick Marks - Paul Hamilton and retained 2003.

272-002 (F2) - Birrana Cars (drivers Malcolm Ramsay and Henk Woelders) - Peter Brock - Bernie Zampatti ... poss. the car now back with Zampatti with a 2.0 Waggott, bought back as a birthday present for Zampatti by his family. This car's history is really confusing as we believed some of the cars components were rebuilt into 008. The jury is still well and truly OUT on this at the moment.

003 [ch plate says '501'] (F.Ford) - Steve Dewhurst 1972 ... Ken Williams 2003.

004 (F.Ford) - Unknown 1972 - Unknown 1973 ... for Jon Davidson ... John Holmes (Toowoomba, Qld) 2003.

005 (F.Ford) - Andrew Miedecke 1972/3 .. now unknown.

272-006 (F2) - Birrana Cars 1972 - Paul Feltham - Bob and Marj. Brown (drv. Mal Ramsay) 1974 then probably to UK (drv. Dean Hosking / spare) 1975 ... now unknown but see "unknown car" notes below.

273-007 - Leo Geoghegan 1973 (‘works’ entry in Singapore 1973) - Tony Stewart [when?] - Don Uerbergang 1974 - Peter Warren 1975-1976 ... John Holmes (Toowoomba, Qld) 2003.

273-008 - Peter Brock 1973 - Bernie Zampatti March 1974 (fitted at some stage with 2-litre Waggott; then with 1.6 twin-cam again) - Bob Creasy August 1976 (fitted with a Cosworth BDD in June 1977) - EAJ Purvis (WA) Jan 1982 - A McIntyre/R Harmon March 1984 ... Bruce Mactier (Victoria) by 1991 ... unknown since and may be the car sold to Zampatti's family.

273-009 - Bob and Marj Brown 1973 (drivers Buesselmann 1973/74 and later Bob Muir 1974); UK 1975; tub may have been used for Minos F2 BUT Zampatti buys ex-Muir UK car c1977, races it for a few seasons in WA, then sells the car to Bill Downey. At the 1979 Aus GP, Downey enters a Birrana 273 but races a Minos. Same car? Later written off? See "unknown car" notes below.

273-010 - Malcolm Ramsay 1973 ('works' car) and Geoghegan at Macau - Graeme Crawford 1974-1978 - Barry Ward 1979 ... Chas Talbot 1981 ...

374-011 - John Blanden Jan 1974 (driver Dean Hosking) F3 1974 - Ian Cook March 1975 (brought for spare engine) - Richard Steigler July 1975 - David Booth December 1975 - Terry Harris May 1980 - Phil Shaw Feb 1996 - Ross Hodgson (Sydney) June 2003.

274-012 - 'Wolfie' Prejawa 1974-1978 - maybe the Paul Liston car below ...

374-013 - Jim Evans F3 1974 (raced with Corolla power then a Ford Crossflow). Was badly bent at Amaroo Park, and the tub was replaced, no chassis number. Then had another accident at Oran Park and was sold in this condition to Richard Steigler who then sold it to Paul McCurdy in 1975 who fitted a Honda engine to it. Then to Joe Vorst in 1979 who was reportedly fitting a Datsun engine to it. Now with Ross Hodgson 2003.

374-014 - Lew Wade 1974 (for Van Heusen series as F3 with a 1300cc Brian Sampson Toyota Corolla) ... later Paul King for F3 ... later Jack Klaver in AF2 between 1981 and 1985 and highly modified by 1985 ...

274-015 - Leo Geoghegan 1974 (works car) - Alfredo Costanzo 1975 - Greame Smith mid 1976 to 1982 - Neil Richardson late 1982 who still had the car in 1986 ... Noel and Andrew Robson (Melbourne) early 1990s. Retained 2003.

274-016 - Chas Talbot 1974 ... Graham Baker; believed destroyed in Baker’s 1977 Wigram crash.

274-017 - Bruce Allison (Hobby and Toyland) 1974 - Len Goodwin mid-1975 ... Kerry Luckins (Melbourne) 2003.

274-018 - Neil Rear 1974 (1600cc twin cam) - Geoff Brabham 1975 - Ray Winter (to replace ex. Mildren Yellow Submarine) ... John Holmes (Toowoomba, Qld) 2003.

S74 'Speedway car' ... John Holmes (Toowoomba, Qld) 2003.

376-020 - F3 1976 ... Don Hewitt owned at one stage , Gemini eng. also others ... Gary Hancock (Gosford, NSW) 2003.

A78-020 - Malcolm Ramsey 1978 ... John Holmes (Toowoomba, Qld) 2003.


Unknown cars spotted by Curt

Bill Stoddart purchased a brand new Birrana 374 from the works in mid 1976, and installed a Corolla engine into it. Could this be the 376?????

Paul Liston owned a Birrana 274 from 1978 to about 82 then im not sure what happened to it. It was raced by Allan Goldsmith in 1979, Colin Jack laste 79 to 80 featuring Wranglers sponsorship and later sidepods, then Mike Quinn raced it in 1981.

Owen Jones owned a Birrana 274 Ford in 1978 then the car appears for sale, then Liston has a car. although no one mentions who the previous owners were. The Owen Jones Birrana is not the 274 Ford that Colin Jack raced as i have since discovered that Jones still owned his car late in 1980, which was also Ford powered.

In 1978 John Smith had a Birrana 273 for sale as a rolling chassis. It was an ex Bob Muir works car raced in the UK. Paul Liston purchased the car and ran Alan Goldsmith in it. So it appears Paul had 2 cars, i do vaguely remeber Alan Goldsmith wrecking a Birrana at Amaroo in 1979, so I'm wondering if this is the car and that maybe it was never rebuilt. Later in the Year Liston has Colin Jack in a Birrana 274 as I have mentioned earlier.

Tom Brickley appears in the mid 80s in a car called a Birrana 376, later raced by Don Hewitt, it features body work similar to the Liston car, ie full sidepods.

Barry Johnson appears from about 1982 onwards in a Birrana 374 Datsun, assuming Vorst did fit a Datsun to his car, Johnsons car could either be the Booth car or the ex jim Evans car.

Rick Purvis in 1982 in a Birrana in WA. Then in same year another race, Joe Riccardo and Gary Martin in Birrana's, Martins being a 274, both in WA.

Still just a few pieces not plugged into the jigsaw.

Allen

I spoke to Paul Liston the other day , his car was the Colin Jack car which they used as a parts donor for his own Liston/Fisher F2 car , later as advised this car was partially rebuilt and still remains with that owner, Barry Duckworth.

The Liston F2 car hasn't been sighted since the late 1970's early 1980's.

Peter Nightingale advises he has 274-009 , and has had for a long time , Peter used to work at Birrana Cars and also did a lot of engine work , primarily Ford Twin-cam and Cosworth Bdds , he was at one time at Repco racing engines as well.
Bryan.

Sorry , I should have added that makes it 274-012.
Bryan.

The Liston/Fisher built car currently resides in Sydney, the owner hopes to run it in AF2 in the near future,well maybe.
The '376' of Bill Stoddarts was the Brickley/Hewitt Gemini powered car

I see the 272 that Brock sold to Zampatti is being rebuilt in WA - see WA Racing Museum www.warm.org.au & follow the links to the associates car.

All hail the Caversham era (irrelevant to the Birrana, see the ZX5).

This thread was overdue for a summary. I've attempted to combine all the information provided by Bryan, Curt and David into a cohesive whole. We seem to have made incredible progress on these cars!

AA71-1 (F.Ford) - John Goss 1971 - David Mingay 1972 - Warwick Marks - Paul Hamilton and retained 2003.

272-002 (F2) - Birrana Cars (drivers Malcolm Ramsay and Henk Woelders) - Peter Brock - Bernie Zampatti ... poss. the car now back with Zampatti with a 2.0 Waggott, bought back as a birthday present for Zampatti by his family. This car's history is really confusing as we believed some of the cars components were rebuilt into 008. The jury is still well and truly OUT on this at the moment.

003 [ch plate says '501'] (F.Ford) - Steve Dewhurst 1972 ... Ken Williams 2003.

004 (F.Ford) - Unknown 1972 - Unknown 1973 ... for Jon Davidson ... John Holmes (Toowoomba, Qld) 2003.

005 (F.Ford) - Andrew Miedecke 1972/3 .. now unknown.

272-006 (F2) - Birrana Cars 1972 - Paul Feltham - Bob and Marj. Brown (drv. Mal Ramsay) 1974 then probably to UK (drv. Dean Hosking / spare) 1975 ... now unknown but see "unknown car" notes below.

273-007 - Leo Geoghegan 1973 (‘works’ entry in Singapore 1973) - Tony Stewart [when?] - Don Uerbergang 1974 - Peter Warren 1975-1976 ... John Holmes (Toowoomba, Qld) 2003.

273-008 - Peter Brock 1973 - Bernie Zampatti March 1974 (fitted at some stage with 2-litre Waggott; then with 1.6 twin-cam again) - Bob Creasy August 1976 (fitted with a Cosworth BDD in June 1977) - EAJ Purvis (WA) Jan 1982 - A McIntyre/R Harmon March 1984 ... Bruce Mactier (Victoria) by 1991 ... unknown since and may be the car sold to Zampatti's family.

273-009 - Bob and Marj Brown 1973 (drivers Buesselmann 1973/74 and later Bob Muir 1974); UK 1975; tub may have been used for Minos F2 BUT Zampatti buys ex-Muir UK car c1977, races it for a few seasons in WA, then sells the car to Bill Downey. At the 1979 Aus GP, Downey enters a Birrana 273 but races a Minos. Same car? Later written off? See "unknown car" notes below.

273-010 - Malcolm Ramsay 1973 ('works' car) and Geoghegan at Macau - Graeme Crawford 1974-1978 - Barry Ward 1979 ... Chas Talbot 1981 ...

374-011 - John Blanden Jan 1974 (driver Dean Hosking) F3 1974 - Ian Cook March 1975 (brought for spare engine) - Richard Steigler July 1975 - David Booth December 1975 - Terry Harris May 1980 - Phil Shaw Feb 1996 - Ross Hodgson (Sydney) June 2003.

274-012 - 'Wolfie' Prejawa 1974-1978 - maybe the Paul Liston car below ...

374-013 - Jim Evans F3 1974 (raced with Corolla power then a Ford Crossflow). Was badly bent at Amaroo Park, and the tub was replaced, no chassis number. Then had another accident at Oran Park and was sold in this condition to Richard Steigler who then sold it to Paul McCurdy in 1975 who fitted a Honda engine to it. Then to Joe Vorst in 1979 who was reportedly fitting a Datsun engine to it. Now with Ross Hodgson 2003.

374-014 - Lew Wade 1974 (for Van Heusen series as F3 with a 1300cc Brian Sampson Toyota Corolla) ... later Paul King for F3 ... later Jack Klaver in AF2 between 1981 and 1985 and highly modified by 1985 ...

274-015 - Leo Geoghegan 1974 (works car) - Alfredo Costanzo 1975 - Greame Smith mid 1976 to 1982 - Neil Richardson late 1982 who still had the car in 1986 ... Noel and Andrew Robson (Melbourne) early 1990s. Retained 2003.

274-016 - Chas Talbot 1974 ... Graham Baker; believed destroyed in Baker’s 1977 Wigram crash.

274-017 - Bruce Allison (Hobby and Toyland) 1974 - Len Goodwin mid-1975 ... Kerry Luckins (Melbourne) 2003.

274-018 - Neil Rear 1974 (1600cc twin cam) - Geoff Brabham 1975 - Ray Winter (to replace ex. Mildren Yellow Submarine) ... John Holmes (Toowoomba, Qld) 2003.

S74 'Speedway car' ... John Holmes (Toowoomba, Qld) 2003.

376-020 - F3 1976 ... Don Hewitt owned at one stage , Gemini eng. also others ... Gary Hancock (Gosford, NSW) 2003.

A78-020 - Malcolm Ramsey 1978 ... John Holmes (Toowoomba, Qld) 2003.


Unknown cars spotted by Curt

Bill Stoddart purchased a brand new Birrana 374 from the works in mid 1976, and installed a Corolla engine into it. Could this be the 376?????

Paul Liston owned a Birrana 274 from 1978 to about 82 then im not sure what happened to it. It was raced by Allan Goldsmith in 1979, Colin Jack laste 79 to 80 featuring Wranglers sponsorship and later sidepods, then Mike Quinn raced it in 1981.

Owen Jones owned a Birrana 274 Ford in 1978 then the car appears for sale, then Liston has a car. although no one mentions who the previous owners were. The Owen Jones Birrana is not the 274 Ford that Colin Jack raced as i have since discovered that Jones still owned his car late in 1980, which was also Ford powered.

In 1978 John Smith had a Birrana 273 for sale as a rolling chassis. It was an ex Bob Muir works car raced in the UK. Paul Liston purchased the car and ran Alan Goldsmith in it. So it appears Paul had 2 cars, i do vaguely remeber Alan Goldsmith wrecking a Birrana at Amaroo in 1979, so I'm wondering if this is the car and that maybe it was never rebuilt. Later in the Year Liston has Colin Jack in a Birrana 274 as I have mentioned earlier.

Tom Brickley appears in the mid 80s in a car called a Birrana 376, later raced by Don Hewitt, it features body work similar to the Liston car, ie full sidepods.

Barry Johnson appears from about 1982 onwards in a Birrana 374 Datsun, assuming Vorst did fit a Datsun to his car, Johnsons car could either be the Booth car or the ex jim Evans car.

Rick Purvis in 1982 in a Birrana in WA. Then in same year another race, Joe Riccardo and Gary Martin in Birrana's, Martins being a 274, both in WA.

Still just a few pieces not plugged into the jigsaw.

Allen

I (Rowan Harman) purchased 273-008 from Rick Purvis. I was going to build a Renault 5 Turbo Sports Sedan out of it but CAMS wouldn't let me (even though they allowed Bob Watson and another guy (Ron Marks?) to rally one???). I sold it to Bruce Mactier. I beleive it was then sold to Ross Zampatti as a birthday present for Bernie and was to be refitted with its (his) 2 Litre Waggott. From memory, Brock was the second owner of the car, it was originally ordered by Paul England for Tony Stewart (maybe one meeting) before Brock got hold of it.

I also purchased the 273-010 and the damaged 016 Car (Baker) from Chas Talbot. The 016 was returned to Australia to recoup "NZ Duty". The 010 Crawford car later went to Steve Lunn. The 016, in component form, (damaged in NZ) was sold to Russell Spokes.

Good to catch up on the Birrana's, wish I still had one? Wish I had built the Renault R5 Turbo too! How is James McGaughey?

I thought the brock 272 was written off ,what parts of it survived to be now under restoration in WA?
Would you not at least need the original chassis to constitute a genuine vehical.

Depends what you call genuine. You dont need an original chassis for an HTP and you don't need one for a Heritage Certificate either.

However, a car that had been 'apart' for a time would not get a HC.

Allen

In Aus it is a lot harder to get a historic log book and certificate of desription (cod)for a genuine vehical.There must be a clear and proven line of history,and cast off components or a "tub" do not automatically constitute a vehical.

If anyone is interested I currently own this car, I have the logbook sitting in front of me, so if anyone wants any information regarding this car please contact me.

Hello

Yes, I'd be very interested in getting this car straightened out. Could you give us a list of owners from the logbook? Email me on allen-at-oldracingcars-dot-com if you prefer.

Thanks

Allen

I (Rowan Harman) purchased 273-008 from Rick Purvis. I was going to build a Renault 5 Turbo Sports Sedan out of it but CAMS wouldn't let me (even though they allowed Bob Watson and another guy (Ron Marks?) to rally one???). I sold it to Bruce Mactier. I beleive it was then sold to Ross Zampatti as a birthday present for Bernie and was to be refitted with its (his) 2 Litre Waggott. From memory, Brock was the second owner of the car, it was originally ordered by Paul England for Tony Stewart (maybe one meeting) before Brock got hold of it.

I also purchased the 273-010 and the damaged 016 Car (Baker) from Chas Talbot. The 016 was returned to Australia to recoup "NZ Duty". The 010 Crawford car later went to Steve Lunn. The 016, in component form, (damaged in NZ) was sold to Russell Spokes.

Good to catch up on the Birrana's, wish I still had one? Wish I had built the Renault R5 Turbo too! How is James McGaughey? Let us get something straight, chassis 008 was never ever fitted with a 4V/ Waggot 2 L prior the Zampati ownership of this car , that Waggot originally came out of the Ramsay/ Granton Harrison Elfin 600C now owned by Ian Ross ... 008 was measured and parts made to fit the Waggot when the chassis was constructed in 1973 & all those parts are in my posession including the Birrana made exhaust . And by the way , i was the third employee of Birrana Cars in 1972 and i know the full story of the 1972 car..

272-??? - Ramsey and guests in 1972
272-??? - Brock 1972 - Zampatti ...
three other early cars unknown
273-006 - Unknown 1973 - Unknown 1974 ... Dean Hosking (UK) 1975
273-007 - Geoghegan 1973 (‘works’ entry in Singapore 1973), then Tony Stewart ANF2, Don Ubergang 73/74
273-008 - Brock 1973 - Zampatti - Creasy
273-009 - Unknown 1973 ... Buesselmann & Muir 1974; UK 1975; tub may have been used for Minos F2
273-010 - Malcolm Ramsay 1973 ('works' car) and Geoghegan at Macau, then Crawford 19?? ... Chas Talbot 1981
374-011 - F3 to John Blanden for Dean Hosking in Aust.
274-012 - Prejawa 1974 ... (then who?)
374-013 - Unknown (F3 based, BUT with 1600cc ford pushrod)
374-014 - Lew Wade 1974 (for Van Heusen series as F3 with a 1300cc Brian Sampson Toyota Corolla) ... later Paul King for F3 ... later Jack Klaver in AF2 between 1981 and 1985 and highly modified by 1985
274-015 - Geoghegan 1974 (works car) - Alfredo Costanzo 1975
274-016 - Talbot 1974 ... Baker; believed destroyed in Baker’s 1977 Wigram crash
274-017 - Allison 1974 ... (then who?)
274-018 - Neil Rear 1974 (1600cc twin cam) - Geoff Brabham 1975 - Ray Winter to replace ex. Mildren Yellow Submarine, and is now in hands of John Holmes (Toowoomba, Qld)
376-020 - F3 1976
A78-020 - Ramsey 1978
AA71/1 - First FF

I've highlighted a few gaps above - quite a few of the early cars have patchy histories.

It's amazing how much we've assembled.

Allen This post needs to be corrected before what is written becomes fokelaw and the bible for Eligibility Officers......

This post needs to be corrected before what is written becomes fokelaw and the bible for Eligibility Officers......


Off you go then!

Let us get something straight, chassis 008 was never ever fitted with a 4V/ Waggot 2 L prior the Zampati ownership of this car , that Waggot originally came out of the Ramsay/ Granton Harrison Elfin 600C now owned by Ian Ross ... 008 was measured and parts made to fit the Waggot when the chassis was constructed in 1973 & all those parts are in my posession including the Birrana made exhaust . And by the way , i was the third employee of Birrana Cars in 1972 and i know the full story of the 1972 car..

If you read my post carefully, it was not suggested the 008 was fitted with the Waggot prior to Zampatti!

My question, was the car to have originally received a Waggot if a "fitting kit" was made during construction?

In answer to your question, no it was not to recieve a Waggot....

This post needs to be corrected before what is written becomes fokelaw and the bible for Eligibility Officers......Please go ahead Peter.

In answer to your question, no it was not to recieve a Waggot....

Then why the fitting kit?

Then why the fitting kit? It was only ever carried out as a hypothetical exersize just in case the south east asian regs may have allowed it of which they never did. The other two Birrana's with rear engine frames with Waggot mounts were the Crawford 273 which also was outfitted with mounts for rising rate front suspension, and the A78 273 Type car, the very last car built, this car had Waggot mounts in the rear engine frames, but again never used because of the reg's in south east asia which the A78 was built for but the reg's went from 2liter free design to BDA Atlantic overnight. This was also fitted with fuel bags to suit a 2L engine useage.......

Please remember that all Birrana designs except F/F were for either Australian F2 or for possibly a South East Asian series of races of the time.....

Please remember that all Birrana designs except F/F were for either Australian F2 or for possibly a South East Asian series of races of the time..... A correction is in order , that last statement should have read, Australian F3 and F2 or possibly a South Asian Series of races of the time....

I have one further addition to this thread , and that is that 273 Birrana chassis # 009 is here in Adelaide and currently holds 2 log books, i CAMS AF 2 log book and an FIA F2 LOG BOOK for the period , the car fitted with a SWINDON 2L BDX for a short period and raced while the MINOS, which was a complete failure was put to paper and built... I understand the MINOS went to west australia , while 009 is here in storage for the time being..... wish we had the SWINDON BDX though.....have every thing else though

And while we are on this subject of chassis for this marque all the components used for the A78 project were new inc engine and gearbox and not ' Ratted ' from any cars taken to the UK as has been alluded to in early posts to this thread.... That means ALL COMPONENTS in including spares taken with the car to MALAYSIA in 1978......

I have one further addition to this thread , and that is that 273 Birrana chassis # 009 is here in Adelaide and currently holds 2 log books, i CAMS AF 2 log book and an FIA F2 LOG BOOK for the period , the car fitted with a SWINDON 2L BDX for a short period and raced while the MINOS, which was a complete failure was put to paper and built... I understand the MINOS went to west australia , while 009 is here in storage for the time being..... wish we had the SWINDON BDX though.....have every thing else though

Peter,
Happy new year - shot of the Minos in Bill Downeys hands at Wanneroo, see www.warm.org.au

Peter,
Happy new year - shot of the Minos in Bill Downeys hands at Wanneroo, see www.warm.org.au Cavvy , Happy New Year to yourself and family, thanks for the info on Bill Downey , cheers............