Argo

Argo F Atlantics. How many made, and who to ? I have the Gorne JM1X, at least one JM5 (Nugent in Ireland) and 2 JM9s, Tyrrell Arnold, and Goodwin Racing. Anyone know any more, and what happened to these 4 after ? Was Dave Rackham due to get one too.

I seem to recall a JM9 on the UK sprint/hill climb scene a few years ago, but can't remember who had it.....
No doubt somebody does.

Simon Frost & Ken Snailham were running a JM9 about ten years ago. This was the Neil White car from your neck of the woods, driven on this side of the water by Barry Goode in 1989 or 1990

An Argo JM9 appeared in the Hillclimb Leaders Championship this year, driven by Laurie Ritchie of Studley.

There are several JM2, JM4 & JM6 running in SVRA/ HSR/ MR in north east USA. All FSV configuration and quick in F70 (pre- Dec '79 cut-off date).

East Racing has an Argo JM19 prepared to the 3.5l Gp.C regulations that they race in Gp.C historic events. Now, this car does not look like your average JM19. I had thought Argo were out of business already when the 3.5l rules came along; but this car looks to be no simple conversion of a C2 chassis, but a "proper" 3.5l car. Is this a genuine Argo development, or a conversion?

http://www.east-racing.com/images/teamh2b.jpg (http://www.east-racing.com)

IIRC the last 'proper' JM19 was made in about 1988-89, I think there was something called a JM20 a year or 2 later aswell. Did Dave Coyne do, or was entered in at least, a couple of the early 1992 GC races, in a 3.5 litre Argo, by his German entrant (Helmut Bross ?). Its possible the car pictured is this one.

I remember that I read somewhere, maybe on the Historic Gp.C/GTP site that a similar car, that was debuted last year at Le Mans (driven by Hepworth?) was rebuilt to Gp. C specs after it was raced in IMSA in open-top form....if I remember well Jo Marquart designed it for Gp.C, then FIA axed the championship, so they chopped the top off to use it in IMSA SWC.

I remember clearly that a new Argo was announced during the winter 91-92, to be used in the Baby class of WSPC......

Sorted - it is a JM20, the Bross car. Thanks everyone!

Maybe, but probably not. Schuster's info on the historic Group C / GTP site says this is the ex Speedy, Bergermann JM19, i.e chassis 124,

http://www.groupc-gtpracing.com/caranddriver/argojuddjm19cschusterm.htm

Photo on racingsportscars during it's Interserie career:

http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/Most-2001-08-05i-photo.html

On Rackham, did he ever use the works Argo JM5 that he was rumoured to be driving, if so it can'e have been often ?

Dan,
Don't think Rackham ever drove the Argo in a race, but it is not the Nugent car in 1980. Rackham still has his for sale in November 1980 when Nugent sells his. Also, think that Rackham's was indeed a JM5 [1979 design] whilst Nugent's was a JM8.

On Argos, I'm certain Nugent's was a JM5, not an 8. I reckon only 2 JM8s ever made, the UK Goodwin car, and the Irish Tyrrell Arnold car. It was definitely a 1981 car, so couldn't have been the one Nugent raced and advertised in 1980. I reckon the JM5 was built late 1979, though intended for 1980. Finally, why can't the Rackham and Nugent cars have been one and the same ?

Agree that Nugent's car was a JM5. It can't be the Rackham car because
Nugent races that car in 79 and 80, and Rackham's car is advertised as
unraced [only two test sessions] and there's also an early 80 ad that says
it's built December 79 to a 80 spec. Finally there are two issues of AS late
1980 where Rackham is still selling his car and Nugent puts his up for sale.
Agree the only JM8s were probably Goodwin and Arnold cars.

Nugent's Argo carried a JM6 plate.

Opinion 3. Nugent's Argo was a JM3.

His biography appears in the 1981 Motor Racing Directory (p143) and it says:

"An Argo JM3 was acquired for 1979, but it wasd not too successful until properly developed in time for the 1980 season in conjuction with Argo. Mike called his car a 'JM8' although that number is allocated to the 1981 Formula 3 model."

Elsewhere in the directory (p466), Argo's models are given as:

JM1 1977-78 F3
JM1X 1979 Atlantic (converted JM1)
JM2 1978 FSV
JM3 1979 F3
JM4 1979 FSV
JM5 1979 Atlantic
JM6 1980 F3
JM7 1980 FSV
JM8 planned 1981 F3
JM9 planned 1981 Atlantic
JM10 planned 1981 FSV

However, this article describes Nugent's car as a JM5.

I'm wrong on FAt Argos chaps, the 81 car was JM9, NOT JM8, the latter being the 'fantastic' F3 car - The "Allegro". I still think the Nugent car was the JM%, not 3 or 6, and recall it being described thus in contemporary MN,AS reports.

Did any FAt Argos ever go to the States I wonder, given the reasonable results of the FSVs over there, I'd have thought there may have been some interest in the FAt versions.

When I first saw Nugent's Argo in Mondello it had a Tea tray front wing and sliding skirts. Late in 1979? I think I only saw it the once that year. I was a bit of a lemon (the worst bit... of a very sour lemon). I suposedly flexed badly among other things. It was returned to Anglia and what came back was a thinly disguised Modus. I painted a picture of the car for Mike in '80. That car other than the Atlantic specific engine, gearbox, brakes, etc. was like the F3 cars of 80.

Numbers, plates... These things were needed for crossing borders and nothing else in those days.

I think it is best to describe it as a nice shade of blue.

...oh, and Mike said he sold it to the States.

What did it do over there I wonder, SCCA only ? Dave, are you sure it had a JM6 plate, and that tea tray is interesting. Was it like the March 711 nose ?

It is twenty odd years ago but I'm as sure as anyone can be about the likes of this. It definitely was different to what it should have been (acording to the likes of Autosport). The original car looked more Ferrari than March. It looked mad beside B29s.

There have been a couple of Argo chassis in speed events:

Argo JM9-057-FA was initially run but Neil White in Northern Ireland in 1987/88 it was then sold to Barry Goode who ran it from 1989 until selling it on to Simon Frost. The car is still taking to the hills in the hands of Laurie Ritchie.

Argo-Toyota/Novamotor JM8/85 was run by Mark Lawrence in 1987. It became the basis of a hillclimb special called the Wraith by 1991/2.

:cool:

JM14, at Oulton Park, 9th April, 2005. Entered by Airspec UK, driven by Eddie Wilkins:-

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/2678/barcchampionshipcarraces090405.th.jpg (http://img114.imageshack.us/my.php?image=barcchampionshipcarraces090405.jpg)

Might the Goode/Frost/Ritchie JM9 have been the car run by Colin Lees
in 1981? Not many JM9s were built - indeed, might this be the only one?

Chris

Might the Goode/Frost/Ritchie JM9 have been the car run by Colin Lees
in 1981? Not many JM9s were built - indeed, might this be the only one?

Chris

When I last saw Laurie Ritchie he knew all the Speed Event history of the car but nothing of what it did before.

As advised elsewhere I was at Eastern Creek Historics on the weekend and the subject came up of Argo's , and I was informed of an Argo about 100km from me , I can only think that it is the 2nd of the two that came into Western Australia about 20/25 years ago, so will track it down.
Bryan.

On reflection I think it's more likely that the Goode/Frost/Ritchie car started life
with Tyrrell Arnold in N.Ireland in 1981

Chris

Chris, yeah I reckon only 2 JM9s, the Goodwin/Lees UK car, and the Irish Tyrrell Arnold one. I suspect the latter is the Laurie Ritchie car that Steve mentions above.

Found a third JM9 Atlantic.
Delivered new in 1981 to Jim Blackwell in Seattle, retained until early 1985
at least. Then to Marty Knoll and Terry Edwards [both NW USA] and then
to Canadian Gary Milligan who used it as the basis of his national autocross
champ winning "Lotus Europa" in 1994.
There was also at least one JM11 Atlantic sold new in Seattle in 1982.

Chris

Chris

Have you spoken to the Bob Relinski who is listed as owning chassis JM11-061-SV in the FSV register? His email is given as karwashbob at aol dot com.

Allen

Chris

Have you spoken to the Bob Relinski who is listed as owning chassis JM11-061-SV in the FSV register? His email is given as karwashbob at aol dot com.

Allen

Allen wasn't the JM12 the FSV, not the JM11 ? I'd thought that for that year, 1982, the F3 was the 10, the FAt the 11, and the FSV the 12. Except that Bill Burley (?) used a JM12 FSV in the 'year-old cars' F3 class a year or so later in Britain IIRC.

Absolutely no idea Dan!! Not sure Argo always did.

I'm sorry I haven't had a chance to go look at the ex Nugent car to confirm it's a JM-8.I thought there was only 2 JM-9 FA built, we had sn 056 (which we bought used, not new) and Wille Stobart in Perth Australia had the other. Could sn 057 that is hillclimbing be the Stobert car gone back to the UK? We did own the 11 (065) that came to Seattle. There is another 11 style car in the area which started life as a super V and left the factory as an FA. It's been a while but I think it is stamped with SV/FA. I do own JM5-036-FA and it is the Rackham car. He did race the car at a boxing day event and had an accident which was rapaired at Anglia cars.

Hi jleonard

Thanks for this - very useful indeed. I had completely failed to spot the information you posted on the 1-off F2 cars thread so I've just grabbed this so it's accessible on this thread. Maybe John can transfer the posts across later and remove the quotes?

Allen

From here (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1490393#post1490393): I see this thread is over a year old but I thought I would add a few notes on Argo atlantic cars. The Rick Gorne car was a converted F3 called a JM1X. The Mike Nugent car was a 1980 JM8 and is in the Seattle, WA. U.S.A. area.It is rumored to have been in a shop fire with partial damage.We imported JM9-056-FA to the U.S. in about 1982. The car was sold and went to B.C. Canada was raced then the suspension was used for an autox special and the gearbox,adapter and tubs (yes 2, one was a used F3) went to Tennesee U.S.A. I was told there was also a JM9 in Australia. We also owned JM11-065-FA which was rebuilt as a sports racer using JM21 bodywork after an extensive accident.The last I heard that car is in Florida.The gem though is our JM5-036-FA which we purchased from Dave Rackham in 1980. I won the first SCCA national it was entered in which we think was the first for an ARGO atlantic.In recent years we have run the car in some vintage events and also against current Swifts and Ralts in SCCA nationals when the Reynard hasn't been ready.Like the comment about the RT1 the 5 is a great car to drive.I think there is also in the Seattle area another JM11 built as a super V converted to atlantic before it left the factory,a JM4 type SV and a ff2000. I just got to thinking that the JM5 could be the only operational true ARGO atlantic car in North America, maybe the world?

From here (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1496012#post1496012): Dan,Jon Peterson arranged the sale of the 9 to us and the money was paid to Anglia Cars.I'm 90% sure it's the Arnold car. We got quite a few spares with the car as they were disassembling the F3 cars after they turned out to not to be very good. The 9 did look much different, Pininfarina's wind tunnel might have made the aero OK but the cars were very flexible. When we bought the JM5 it was the intention of my brother and I to inspect both the 5 and the Nugent JM8. When we left the US both cars were for sale, when we landed in the UK 12 hours later Nugent had taken a deposit on his car from an agent in the US. We also bought an Alan Smith engine from Andy Barton (iron man of the north?) on that trip.I still have the autosport ad listing the Nugent car as an 8,also I should have race results from here in the US with the car listed as an 8.The 5 and 8 Have different tubs the 8 being longer extending into the engine bay along with some other minor changes.The nose and upper bodywork are the same,the sidepods are different as well as most of the rear suspension.The 11 we had was built as an atlantic same bodywork as the F3 but with all the right brakes ,wheels and wings. It did use the front upright from the 1981 F3/atlantic. Back in about 1985 the 5,9and 11 all attended the same pro atlantic race (half the worlds population of ARGO atlantics?) Thanks for the intrest,Jo would be pleased. Is there an area for atlantics I don't want the F2 guys to be upset with us? J

Tom Johnston in Canada has emailed me to say that: The JM6 referred to as being driven by Ross Bentley is actually a Johnston JM6, one of my cars. The similar mark designation often resulted in confusion at the time.Allen

I'll say, I only found one contemporary reference to it as a Johnston rather than as an Argo!
Though from seeing a photo on CMSHG a few years back I recall it did have an uncanny resemblance to Argo's FF2000 car that appeared at the same time.
Chris

I've asked Tom for some background on the car. He's also said he'll look into our other Argo queries.

Allen

From what jleonard is saying here it looks as though JM9-056-FA was the Blackwell car in Atlantic before being AX'd and had previous in 1981 -
presumably as the Arnold car which disappears after 81. That would make our UK/Irish based JM9 the ex Goodwin Racing chassis. I can't find any evidence of an Argo in Australian Pacific class in 81/83.
The Seattle location makes the Nugent JM8 a fine prospect for the car of Jim Burnett. All we need here is the chassis no!
The outstanding question is JM11-65.
jleonard is your car the ex Karlberg-Boley Atlantic racer or was that the hybrid FA/SV that's still up there in Seattle?
Also, would love some results and background on SCCA Nationals in the 1980s as I start doing pro races in that period
Chris

Chris,

Western Australia is a long way from the other side of OZ where most Atlantic stuff happened , Willie Stobart certainly is a name that rings bells re . one of the two Argo's that came here, which has reminded me to try and find out about the one I was told of up the coast from Sydney.

The JM-11-O65 is the Karlberg/Boley car that I owned and yes I am Jim Blackwell. Jim Burnett owns the 11 FA/SV the 8, ex Nugent car and a JM17 FF2000. I called Jim and confirmed that the early car is JM8-044-FA. So the list of ARGO atlantics goes JM1X sn?,JM5-036,JM8-044,all early design. JM9-056 dismantled, parts in US and Canada. JM9-057, one of two built for Irish series now speed event car, back from OZ? 9s were the Arrows F1 lookalikes. JM11-065 ex Karlburg/Boley,Blackwell,now in Florida with JM-21 sportsracer bodywork.And the Burnett JM11 S.N. unknown, car in storage. The 11s looked like Ralt rt4s. Wille Stobert also had a March 832. Please do not call Jim about his cars as they are not for sale.

Jim

A proper welcome to CF3 and thanks for all the information. Apart from the Willy Stobart mystery you've cleared up every query on the Argo Atlantic cars. [I have a pencil written note of the Gorne chassis number, but need to clarify the handwriting with the original note taker.]
Have a look at the 84 WCAR results on www.oldracingcars.com and tell us if we're gettting it right.

Chris

Have a look at the 84 WCAR results on www.oldracingcars.com and tell us if we're gettting it right.Somewhat confusingly listed under Canada: try here (http://www.oldracingcars.com/results/racelist.asp?CategoryID=KP).

I'm getting lost here chaps. Are we saying there were/are only 2 JM9s made, thats why I think FWIW - the Lees/Goodwin car, and the Arnold one. One is still in UK with Ritchie, the other with Jim B in US/Canada.

I still maintain the Nugent car was a 1979-80 model, a JM5, and NOT an 81 JM8/9. The 2 models, ie the 79/80 and 81 cars were distinctly different. I think the sequence is as follows :

JM1X 1979 convert of a 78 F3 car
JM5 1979-80 'new' car, similar to the classic JM6 F3, 2 made for Nugent and Rackham
JM9 1981 car, the equivalent to the awful JM8 F3 car - 2 made, Lees and Arnold.
JM11 1982, one only and slightly RT3-4 looking.

How do we think about the above ??

... JM11 1982, one only ...Definitely more than 1 as we have Bob Relinski's JM11-061-SV, Jim Blackwell's 'JM-11-O65' and Jim Burnett's '11 FA/SV'. With the known JM9s being chassis 056 and 057, there are gaps in the numbering that may hide more JM11s.

Allen

Allen and Dan

I too wondered about the calling out of JM8-044 as Nugent's car as he has his Argo in 1979 and the JM8 was the 1981 F3 car. 1979 should make it a JM5. It's retained 1980 but then disappears 81. However, my records of Irish Atlantic in 1981 are decidedly thin, it's quite possible that Nugent got a JM8 for that year. Given the competitiveness of the JM8 it's entirely plausible that he would not figure in any results!

Remaining problems:
Nick May has a JM5 October 79 at Brands Atlantic race, perhaps on loan from works. This might be the Rackham JM5 which then goes to Jim Blackwell.

Nick Adams has a "JM6 " October 80 at Brands Atlantic, also perhaps a one off works loan with a view to the following year. I can't see where this one goes. Chassis number 044-F3 works as well for a 1980 chassis as an early 1981 JM8... [Both 041 and 042 were early 1980 F3 cars for the works and Colin Thorpe]

JM9s - only two
056 Arnold, then to Jim Blackwell, Marty Knoll, Terry Edwards, and A/X
057 Goodwin Racing, then unknown to Neil White [h/c 1995]

Agree that we have at least three JM11s.

Any offers on JM12 Super Vee?

Chris

Yes there is more than one 11, two FA, SV unknown. I only knew of two JM9 atlantics. At this point I have no doubt that Nugents ad in autosport in the winter of 1980/81 listing his car as an 8 is correct. Confirming this model number with a phone call to Jim Burnett. I waited on the phone while Jim went out to his shop uncovered the car and checked. I know 044 raced in Portland Oregon USA on June 12, 1981, it's first race in the US I know of. Nugent raced his car after he sold it to Jim, to finish one season or start the next I'm not sure. it was in Autosport that he had an accident with it before it got shipped to the US. Rackham's notes are a little rough but I think he tested the 5(036) at Brands on sept.15 1979 and could he have made it to a libre race at Donnington the next day the 16th? 45s at Brands and 72,73s at Donnington.There seams to be two races at Brands after Sept. one of 53 laps and one of 50 laps and a note about a lower third gear for the Brands atlantic round,could this be the Nick May race? Rackham also told us he held the Lyddon outright lap record. I can think of no reason why JM8-044 is an 8 other than the guy stamping the plates had to good of a time at the Hare+Barrel in Griston and screwed up. We could always have the plate checked to see if there is a 3 under the 8 But that would have been done at the factory. The actual build date is the most important for us, our local vintage rules state December 31 1979 is the cut off. If we could locate Nick Jordon on John Peterson they might have a good story about it. If you see Ross Bently in results driving an ARGO it should be a Johnston.

As a matter of interest, what are all the other missing numbers between 036 and 065? F3s? FFs? Sports cars?

Allen I suspect mainly F3s/FSVs.

As Chris says 041/42 were JM6 F3s, there was at least 1 JM7 FSV I think, the '80 FSV car.

Given the success of the JM6, and that Ron T couldn't build RT3s quick enough, they made around 9 or 10 JM8s I reckon for 81, so that might take it to -55 or so. Where the next 8 or 9 cars are, up to -065, I'm not sure. The JM14s didn't come til 1983, which is after, so perhaps there were a few 1982 F3s after all, the JM10.

I agree with Chris again on the Nugent car, which first appears in '79, so it MUST be a JM5, and not an 8. The Adams car was, I'd always thought the Rackham one, a one-off drive after he'd given up on the March 80A that year. The Nick May drive was also the Rackham car I'm sure.

It's possible the Nugent car was upgraded at the factory with new bits (even a new tub) and was given a new plate JM8-044 to replace its JM5-044 plate. That sort of dodge might have saved Nugent some car tax or import duties. A little bird told me yesterday that it was common practice at Chevron to upgrade an old sports car with a new tub making it into the latest model and dump the old tub out the back. Maybe Argo did something similar sometimes.

Allen

I'm not sure about the upgrading of 044-F3 because that chassis number
doesn't explain it as the car Nugent ran in 1979.
If we know 41 and 42 to have been 1980 F3s then the 1979 car has to be
a lower number than that. I think Nugent might have had two cars replacing
a 79 JM3 with a JM6/8 hybrid in 1981 at some point.

Regardiing number sequence: 037 is a works JM6 F3 used as a spare by Tassin and raced by him at Mallory Park in Sept 1980. 033 is a 1979 SV used by Werner Erhard in USA. It looks to me as though 036 is the last 1979 car built.

Regarding Rackham's notebook: September 15 was a Saturday, and Brands did allow a limited amount of testing on Saturdays if there was a school going on at the same time. [I still remember spinning on John Oxborrow's oil on the exit of Paddock on one of these occasions...] Will check if there was a libre at Donington Sept 16 or maybe Dan will know.

The last Atlantic round was at Brands, October 14 and ran for 52 laps.
This was the race where May appeared [7th]. Was a late entry as he's not in the programme. Rackham appeared with his Chevron B42-08, finished 6th.
Will have to have a good look at libre races in A/S.

Chris

Anyone spoken to this guy?

http://www.racingcarsforsale.co.uk/frameset-argo.htm

Allen

I'm not sure about the upgrading of 044-F3 because that chassis number doesn't explain it as the car Nugent ran in 1979.Oh yes, good point. So does that mean he must have had two different cars?

Allen

Chris, Rackham in B42-08? Do you mean B42-15, -08 was the ex-Daly, Gary Gibson car I think. The Rackham JM5 as -036 makes sense, as we know it was a late season car, only appearing after he'd been out that year in the Druid, B29, and B42. What an interesting year he must have had !

I didn't get to that Sept 79 Donington meeting so no idea on the Libre race I'm afraid.

Dan
Brain fade on my part. 42-15 it was!

However, Jim says the notebook remarks on two races at Brands after Sept. One of 50 and the other 53 laps. 50 laps - even of the club circuit - is way too long to be a libre race. Am I missing a Hitachi round between Oulton 8 Sept and Brands 14 Oct?

Chris

Right , contacted current owner of car up the coast from me , he hasn't looked at the plate for years and will do so and get back to me.
He thinks it is a JM6 , it is ex F3 bought in to Australia by Graham Brown and had been converted to Atlantic with FT200 etc. he does know that it is ex Desire Wilson , then Michael Bleekmolen ??spelling, car was damaged very severly by Brown in Western Australia , owner has had it for at least 15 years , but he can't remember how long.
Best I can do at this stage.
Bryan.

Wilson drove the Goodwin Racing JM9 a couple of times when Colin
Lees ran out of money, but I don't think Michael Bleekemolen EVER
ran an Atlantic race. [Don't know that by that stage in her career that
Desire ever drove F3 either...]

Interesting...

Chris

Hello everyone,

I am a proud owner of a Argo JM2, number 004. The car won the SCCA run-offs in the States in '79 and '80.

Now I have the opportunity to purchase another nice Argo but I do not know the history of the model. And I was hoping you guy's could help me.

The car is a JM17 FF2000. It is in great shape but I would like to know more about the car before I purchase it. Any information you can supply me is appreciated.

I would really like to know how many were built, are spares
available and what the value of the car is. The one I'm looking at was restored to a high degree a couple years ago.

Thanks,

John Street

Wilson drove the Goodwin Racing JM9 a couple of times when Colin
Lees ran out of money, but I don't think Michael Bleekemolen EVER
ran an Atlantic race. [Don't know that by that stage in her career that
Desire ever drove F3 either...]

Interesting...

Chris

Agreed Chris, re Desire in the Goodwin JM9. Did she ever race F3 at all? Re the Bleekemolen issue, I don't think he ever used an Argo. Racing Team Holland did tho' in 1979, Rob Leeuwenberg and Arie Luyendijk used JM3s most of the year IIRC, with some reasonable placings. I wonder if Brian's mate means these Dutchmen rather than Bleeke.

I'm sure there was no Hitachi race between the 2 you mention.

Hi John

Can you tell us the owners of 004? Also, as we develop our understanding of Argo chassis numbering, it would be useful to know exactly how the number is expressed on your early car. Is JM2/004 or JM2-004-SV or what?

There seem to have been quite a lot of FFs as they are just about the only thing to explain the missing numbers between the 1982 JM11 at 065 and the start of the 1983/84 JM16 IMSA cars at 097. So maybe as many as 30 built.

Allen

Allen, I don't recall that many FF2000s being built by Argo. OTOH there may have been 3 or 4 JM14s over here in 1983-84, I can only recall one JM17 a little later (Bobby Carville??).

I presume John's is the ex Bill Alsup car, probably the first FSV made in 78.

Dan

I thought the Alsup car was JM2-007-FV but could be wrong.
002 might have been a spare car for the Zeitler team

Chris

The so-dead-I'm-going-to-have-to-switch-it-off-soon FSV register on ORC has:

Argo JM2 Chassis #7 Ex-Alsup Ex-Jim Harrel
Argo JM2 Chassis #14
Argo JM2 Chassis #18?? Ex-Bob Cicconi ??
Argo JM2 Chassis #20 Alsup's championship car
Argo JM4 Chassis #23 Ex-Peter Moodie-Zeitler Team Car
Argo JM4 Chassis #33 Ex-Werner Erhard Breakthrough Racing

Somebody seems to have got the FSV register going again elsewhere so I think I can switch off my mummified version and link to him. I've never seen it as ORC's job to maintain registers but I didn't want that one to die.

Allen

Hello,

My Argo JM2 has the following chassis number. It reads JM2-004. There is no designation to the type of car, such as FSV, F3, etc.

I know some of the history of the car. As I have spoken in lenght with one of the early owners. And we keep in touch as much as possible. I will gather all the history I know and I will post it soon.

John Street

Werner Erhard had two cars if not three. Has anybody called Steve Wills?

Dan,
You could well be correct; the owner seemed most concerned with telling me how long he had owned them than with their histories, he also has two other local cars, an Elfin 623 and a Nota Sportsman, the latter since 1970 and the Elfin since 1978, and none are apparently usable.
I will await more info from him.
Bryan.

The new FSV register, the one that's being actively maintained, has:

Argo JM2 Chassis 4 John Street (WA, USA)
Argo JM2 Chassis 7 Ex-Alsup Ex-Jim Harrel
Argo JM2 Chassis 9 John Street (WA, USA) - parts only.
Argo JM2 Chassis 14 Jacob Symovitch (PA, USA)
Argo JM2 Chassis 16 Ex- Mark Abel/ George Dyer Destroyed At Atlanta
Argo JM2 Chassis 18? David Loring ?? (USA) Ex-Bob Cicconi ??
Argo JM2 Chassis 20 Domenick Billera (PA, USA) Alsup's championship car.

Argo JM4 Chassis 23 Domenick Billera (PA, USA) Ex-Peter Moodie-Zeitler Team Car
Argo JM4 Chassis 25 Dan Schmutte (OH, USA) Ex-Lee Brahin
Argo JM4 Chassis 33 Jerry Peters (CT, USA) Ex-Werner Erhard Breakthrough Racing

Argo JM11 Chassis JM11-061-SV Bob Relinski (USA)

Allen

Out in a clubbie at Brands Hatch on Saturday was JM10-62 F3, driven by John De Ritter. He does not know the early history, except that it was a 1983 car and had been recently been used in Monoposto races. I saw it in one in 1999 with a Ford 1600 driven by John Lewis. The car is now fitted with a VW Brabham F3 engine.

Other observations on Argos over the years include:-
JM1-018 F3 - Rick Gorne in Atlantic in 1979 [JM1X];
JM4-034 SV;
JM6-038 to 043 F3 seen in period or in Classic F3;
JM9-051/3/5 F3 seen in 1981;
JMX-001 - Toyota F3 Steve Bradley 1983 [I feel that this ought to be a JM10 but who knows?];
JM14-005 and JM14-06 seen in 1983 in FF2000;
JM17-105-FF - Bobby Carville FF2000 in 1985;
JM18-130 F3 - F3 in 1993.

Why the different form of numbering in the JMX and JM14 cars?

Very interesting. We definitely have a very large gap between the last of the JM10/11/12 cars around 1982/83 at chassis 065 and the first of 1983/84 JM16 IMSA cars at 097. Given that only months can have separated one production run from the other, a gap of 32 cars is baffling. Only the JM14s can explain that as the JM15 was a one-off (maybe two-off) Can-Am car.

It looks like Argo must have skipped a few (dozen) numbers. But why?

Allen

Alan

Thankyou for confirming the Gorne car as 18-F3 for me. I thought it might have been 13. [The problem this raises is the 018-SV in the US]

Two questions: Do you have names associated to all those JM6s and 9s in F3?
If you observed the Gorne chassis number in Atlantic, do you have other chassis number observations from 1979 on that might be relevant to the Atlantic database thread?

Chris

A few comments chaps.

First from Alan's comments I assume his observations were all in Britain, hence I guess the JM4-034 is the Olly Hollamby (or was it Bruce Venn ?) car in 1979, which was, I think, the only UK car they made for FSV. I saw it in mid-80 with a chap called Robbie Hislop, apparently a Kiwi driving, and non-too quickly!

The Gorne car was OTOH the ex-Stefan J 1978 F3 car converted.

A good number of F3 JM8s were out in Brit F3 in early '81, at Mallory April 12 for example: Beekhuis, Hutson, Sturdy, Rosso, Benamo, Booth. Tassin was in his Trundle RT3, but had been in a JM8 prior, so that makes at least 7 built. Not sure if any went outside of the UK that year, I don't recall any.

The Bradley 'JMX' was in fact a slightly modded JM8, not a 10.

The JM14 nos. are a mystery, given they fall between the JM10-12 nos, which make sense in the Argo run, and the JM17/18, which do too. I agree with Allen, why would they change the numbering sequence for the FF2000s?

The JM15, Allen, was I think a one-off Indy/CART car, not a Can-Am, and made for Bill Alsup in about 1982 ? Was it later made into a CanAm ?

Dan - I was thinking CART but wrote Can-Am. You are completely right.

All,

I contacted Thomas Pomeroy the chap who had owned my car and won the SCCA run-off's in it in 1979. He gave me the following owner information.

The first owner in the US was Zeitler Racing, who then sold it to Joe Hill of Westerville Ohio. Joe ran it for one season but poor maintenance made it less and less competitive.

Thomas Pomeroy bought the car from Joe Hill. Thomas was very successful in the car and won the 1978 SCCA run-off's but, he was disqualified for using illegal rods. He came back in 1979 to win it again. And in 1980 he rented the car to Curtis Farley, who won the 1980 SCCA run-off's in it also.

Thomas then sold the car to a Mr (first name not known) Brown who converted it to a single seater CSR. After this the history is unknown until the late 90's.

There is a long gap in the history until the late 90's "as the story goes" the car was stored in a Detroit warehouse. I have no proof of this. It is just the story.

Brian Elliott in 1999 had the car restored by McNamara motorsports in Indianapolis Indiana. It was finished in 2001.

Brian raced the car in 4 events then sold it to me (John Street) in 2002. I've been racing the car in vintage and historic events since then.

John Street

A few comments chaps.

First from Alan's comments I assume his observations were all in Britain, hence I guess the JM4-034 is the Olly Hollamby (or was it Bruce Venn ?) car in 1979, which was, I think, the only UK car they made for FSV. I saw it in mid-80 with a chap called Robbie Hislop, apparently a Kiwi driving, and non-too quickly!

Confirmation that it was Bruce Venn in 034 in 1979. For interest, I have Arie Luyendyk in JM2-024 in Super Vee in 1981.

Alan Brown

To confirm John's 004 history.
I've been doing a bit of digging into SV Argos courtesy of Formula and Sports Car and two were imported by Zeitler in early 77. 007 is Alsup's 77 car, and 004 therefore that of Joe Hill. (Zeitler had been the Modus importer and when Jo Marquart started up Argo they continued the relationship.)
In 1978 Pomeroy gets 004 and 007 goes to Bill Cruse
Alsup gets 020 as a new car. Can't work out who gets 014, 016 and 018 yet though 018 could be Ciccone from new.

In 1979 the water-cooled engine is introduced. A number of drivers who've run in SV switch to the SCCA FC and run old air cooled motors or the watercooled engine on carbs rather than SV spec injection. Pomeroy is one of these - the SCCA finals wins for John's car were in FC both years. (Pomeroy also notable for being a driver with only one hand as result of a birth defect.)*

* This statement has since been corrected at post #116 - JT

1979: 004 Pomeroy [FC]
007: Cruse spare car [SV]
014: Unknown, perhaps Bill Vermeer [SV]
016: Mark Abel [SV]
018?: Bob Ciccone [SV]
020: James Havell [SV and FC on carbs]
023: Peter Moodie [SV]
025: Unknown, perhaps Cruse's new car [SV]
033: Werner Erhard [SV]
034: Unknown, perhaps Erhard's spare.
In addition to the above the following appear in JM2s in 1979 suggesting either extra cars or some renting out [Ciccone - Vogler as a pair of sprint drivers looks a good option]
Rich Vogler
Brian Johnson

Do we know anything about the other early Argos? Between all the information we have here now, how many numbers up to 65 can we fill in?

Allen

The -034 JM4 looks OK to me Chris, as Alan says he saw it on Venn's 79 car, which makes sense. That year at least 3 F3 JM3s were out, the Guerrero works car, and the 2 RTH/Marlboro ones. I suspect Guerrero may have had a spare, or a 'works development' one too.

The ex-Gorne JM1X, did it go climbing afterwards in Scotland, rings a very vague bell with me ?? Steve help me here !

The ex-Gorne JM1X, did it go climbing afterwards in Scotland, rings a very vague bell with me ?? Steve help me here !

In 1980 Brian Fraser ran in the Scottish Hillclimb Championship sponsored by Express Surefreight in the ARGO ATLANTIC (aka JM1X)
In 1981 Fraser was again running in the Scottish Hillclimb Championship this time sponsored by Netherton & Worth in the ARGO JM1X

:beer:

In 1980 Brian Fraser ran in the Scottish Hillclimb Championship sponsored by Express Surefreight in the ARGO ATLANTIC (aka JM1X)
In 1981 Fraser was again running in the Scottish Hillclimb Championship this time sponsored by Netherton & Worth in the ARGO JM1X

:beer:

Further details from events I attended:

(a) Fraser ran at Barbon in May 1980 (race number 66)
(b) Fraser was also at Barbon in May 1981 (race number 62)
(c) He also ran at the first Shelsley Walsh of 1981 (race number 103)
(d) finally he was at Harewood in July 1981 where the Argo was entered as follows: Boss Hog Argo JM1X Smith

Unfortunately I didn't take any photos of Fraser in the Argo - must not have impressed me! :s

Was Daisy Duke there with him Steve, well worth a look at her chassis no...

Was Daisy Duke there with him Steve, well worth a look at her chassis no...

If memory serves it was 38D-24-36.:cool:

:laugh: but, Ahem!

6) Keep pleasantries and banter to an absolute minimum

Gentlemen, this is like the Library - serious business, the archive! :)

:laugh: but, Ahem!

6) Keep pleasantries and banter to an absolute minimum

Gentlemen, this is like the Library - serious business, the archive! :)

Sorry headmaster, it won't happen again!:faint:

Anyone know anything about the Argo (JM6?) owned by Bob Geeson and used by Ilias Efessios to win a libre at Brands Hatch in November 1981?

Allen

Anyone know anything about the Argo (JM6?) owned by Bob Geeson and used by Ilias Efessios to win a libre at Brands Hatch in November 1981?

Allen

Allen, twas the ex-Guerrero/Scott car from 80-81. No idea where it went after.

Argo JM9-057-FA was initially run but Neil White in Northern Ireland in 1987/88 it was then sold to Barry Goode who ran it from 1989 until selling it on to Simon Frost. The car is still taking to the hills in the hands of Laurie Ritchie.

:cool:

Further conversation with Laurie Ritchie (see above) solicited that the car was the ex-Colin Lees 'works' FAtlantic chassis.

:cool:

Makes sense Steve, run by Goodwin Raciung here in 1981, as a 'works assisted' car IIRC. Lees had it initially, then ran out of cash, Desire Wilson had at least one run in it, others too maybe??

John Lewis had a couple of late season outings in it.

Chris

Eddie Wilkins was out at Brands Hatch (May 27/28) in his JM14, now fitted with original side pods rather than the narrow ones of last year. The chassis plate appears to be stamped 12822 with what could be a scratched prefix of JM. The plate was on the car when he bought it. Any explanation?

Could it be a JM12 frame converted (at the time) to an early JM14. Did the JM14 not appear in 1983?

Alan Brown

(See also here:- http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1559765&postcount=23 -JT)

Further conversation with Laurie Ritchie (see above) solicited that the car was the ex-Colin Lees 'works' FAtlantic chassis.

:cool:
My first visit to 'notalgia corner'...I worked for Ivor Goodwin and 'built' this car at the Argo factory, it was really a hastily lashed up JM8, we did a press launch in Ireland with a thinly disguised JM8. I don't think either ever worked very well but they did look fabulous. Has anyone got any pictures?

Welcome Stephen. There may be many other Argo production mysteries that you can solve for us. How long did you work at Argo?

Allen

Eddie Wilkins was out at Brands Hatch (May 27/28) in his JM14, now fitted with original side pods rather than the narrow ones of last year. The chassis plate appears to be stamped 12822 with what could be a scratched prefix of JM. The plate was on the car when he bought it. Any explanation?

Could it be a JM12 frame converted (at the time) to an early JM14. Did the JM14 not appear in 1983?

Alan Brown

Alan, JM12 was the '82 FSV car, and JM14 the 83-84 FF2000. They looked v different. My techy knowledge is zero, but I'd have thought a 12 couldn't have been made into a 14. Chassis no. 128 may fir the bill for a 14 tho'.

Welcome Stephen. There may be many other Argo production mysteries that you can solve for us. How long did you work at Argo?

Allen

Hello Allen..I actually worked for Ivor Goodwyn and as is common practice went Argo to assemble the car and I found it was to be the first Atlantic derivative of the JM8, I think it was the first year of the JM8 and the design of that was not really finalised. I was at Argo for about 6 weeks all three principals were very likeable guys and they and the staff really knew the job. I was most impressed by their standards of workmanship but I think they got this one wrong! It was difficult to mate the Ford engine to the rear bulkhead and the rear lower suspension was a little odd.
Colin Lees was our driver sponsored by a used car warranty company. I left before season end, I don't know what became of Ivor Goodwyn but Lees was later to have an interest in Mondiale.
Nick Jordan is still about, I saw him as the 'expert' on Scrapheap challenge a while ago...there will be nothing he doesn't know about Argo Cars.

Stephen, any idea why Goodwin chose to buy the Argo, and not a Ralt or March. Did he get a good deal on it, or was he a mate of Marquart/Jordans from prior days? Or perhaps, like a few F3 teams, he'd thought the excellent performance of the 1980 F3 cars meant the 81 range were going to be good...

Allen..Up to then I don't think Jo Marquat had designed a 'bad' car..the JM8 was meant to run without a front wing a la F1 practice of the day, it was a step forward, Tassin via the Team Holland connection was the 81 driver and it looked a good bet. Ivor Goodwin was not the easiest guy to get on with and could never be described as a friend of Argo but I guess was offered a deal to move the Atlantic programme along. Argo were flat out building F3 cars presumeably as were their competitors.
Between Argo having too much on their plate and me helping them out with their workload, I don't think Ivor got a very good deal. Add to that the poor performance of the car, we could never get any temperature into the oversize control tyres and the precarious nature of the sponsor the project had little chance of success.
Fond memories for me though, there were a few other customers assembling cars and we all had a fine time enjoying Norfolk hospitality..Steve

Alan, JM12 was the '82 FSV car, and JM14 the 83-84 FF2000. They looked v different. My techy knowledge is zero, but I'd have thought a 12 couldn't have been made into a 14. Chassis no. 128 may fir the bill for a 14 tho'.

128 was about the end of the Argo run with a Group C/GTP car. I was trying to interpret the numbers on the chassis plate. One of my earlier posts pointed out the different numbering system used on the JM14s.

Alan Brown

Did any FAt Argos ever go to the States I wonder, given the reasonable results of the FSVs over there, I'd have thought there may have been some interest in the FAt versions.

Dan,

Yes, at least one JM9 did get to the US and I raced it for a while. Can't even remember if it had a chassis tag - I believe it did. I sold it in the late 80's to a chap in New Jersey. I'll try to find some records when I get home.

Charles, I presume this was -056, the ex Arnold Irish car, then to the US for Blackwell, Knoll, Edwards ?? How was the car, and where did you race it?

Dan, It was my first atlantic car and first ground effects model so the learning curves were high. Car ran well in mid-div US SCCA races (Memphis, St Louis, etc.). In thinking the time line I probably bought it was around 1989 or even 90 and held it for a couple of years. I sold it to a vintage racer in the northeast US. I'll try to get some more accurate input when I get back to the colonies. Cheers

Curently undergoing a much needed refurbish is Argo JM8-053-F3. This car was run by Mark Lawrence in sprints and hillclimbs with a Toyota engine fitted. The Toyota was then replaced with a Rover V8 and John Fellows joined Mark behind the wheel. The car passed through several hands (including Mike Morgan) before Keith Harris acquired it. As Harris is having difficulties squeezing into the cockpit once the work is completed the car will be back up for sale.

:)

Steve, do any of your contacts know who had the car in its 'heyday', ie F3 1981??

Steve, do any of your contacts know who had the car in its 'heyday', ie F3 1981??

I will see if I can get in touch with Mark Lawrence as he was the first person to run the car in Speed Events. It may take some time so be patient!

:cool:

I have just been advised of another Argo over here, in Sth. Australia to be precise.

I have asked the current owner to join, his name is Ian Hills.

Car is a JM8 , if my scribbled notes are correct , first to John Booth , now of Manor Motorsport, then as the car was a bit useless rebuilt with assistance from Jo Marquart /John Bradshaw into a JM8/9B and fitted with a 1600cc all steel Ford Pushrod and won the Monoposto Championship 1995?? Car came from/via Dermot Healey.

Bryan, that was a 1981 F3 car. John 'Butcher' Booth ran in it in early races that year, before giving up on it, as did most others. He borrowed I think a previous years JM6 from the factory to replace it, then called the whole year off. Shame, as he looked OK in FF1600 before and after, so you might say the JM8 ruined his career, driving-wise anyway.

Hello
I'm the owner of a Formula 3 Argo JM8 052 1981 with Toyota engine since 6 years
How many JM8 was built ?
Who is the first owner of that car :UK Goodwin car or Irish Tyrrell Arnold car. Who drives that car ? Tassin, Guerrero or another driver ?
Thanks for your search
Dom

Dom

The JM8s from 1981 with known chassis numbers are those of Rushen Green Racing [David Sears], David Sturdy and Paul Hutson.
Clearly you don't have the John Booth car as that's in Australia
That leaves the cars of Franco Forini [in Italy], Thierry Tassin [maybe more than one] Jon Beekhuis, Derek Butt and Roy Fish

Guerrero didn't drive for Argo in 1981, he'd graduated to F2

Chris

Chris, don't think Sears was in a JM8 in 1981. He'd had a JM6 the year before, but in 81, I think he did a part season in an EJR RT3. Wasn't it Enrique Benamo in the RG JM8. Who were Messrs Butt and Fish, I've never heard of either of those 2?? Victor Rosso also had a JM8 early on in 1981.

Dan

Derek Butt was entered in a new JM8 early season, not sure if he ever appeared. Roy Fish offers for sale a JM8 'one race one test session' at the end of the season - this could, of course, be someone's else's car [something abandoned by Tassin; Butt's car] as easily as it could be an extra JM8.
I thought Sears did a couple of races in Rushen Green's JM8 after his RT3 money ran out...
and yes Victor Rosso did indeed do a couple of early season races in a JM8 described by Autosport as 'the works' mule'. Never was a racing car more aptly described...

Chris

This is the Alsup FSV, August 1977 at Mid-Ohio support race for Can-Am
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/davhut/Alsup_FSV_77sm.jpg

Zeitler Racing Imports? Who they?

I have just been advised of another Argo over here, in Sth. Australia to be precise.

I have asked the current owner to join, his name is Ian Hills.

Car is a JM8 , if my scribbled notes are correct , first to John Booth , now of Manor Motorsport, then as the car was a bit useless rebuilt with assistance from Jo Marquart /John Bradshaw into a JM8/9B and fitted with a 1600cc all steel Ford Pushrod and won the Monoposto Championship 1995?? Car came from/via Dermot Healey.

This is not a true Argo; it's a Raffo; a heavily modifed car; no idea how much of the car is original or whether even a car with plate. It was for sale here but no one wanted it as it was not a historic car; wrong engine etc, etc - I know why Ian bought the car !!

I have some new sidepods and some suspension parts for the JM9. Could fit the 8 F3 also.

Alan, JM12 was the '82 FSV car, and JM14 the 83-84 FF2000. They looked v different. My techy knowledge is zero, but I'd have thought a 12 couldn't have been made into a 14. Chassis no. 128 may fir the bill for a 14 tho'.
the number was jm 14822.. no idea what it means.. type year month??

This is the Alsup FSV, August 1977 at Mid-Ohio support race for Can-Am
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/davhut/Alsup_FSV_77sm.jpgAnd here, it would seem, is the same car today - in the Crawford Auto-Aviation Museum near Cleveland Ohio. The Museum lists it as a "1977 Argo JM-2 Super Vee Race Car".

http://www.wrhs.org/cfm/auto/autoimage.cfm?auto_id=169

They also have a #19 Red Roof Inns Indy March 82C and a Hogan Racing F5000 McLaren M10B.

Allen,

I believe this is Alsup's 1977 JM-2 Chassis #7 which he raced in air-cooled configuration. He traded this car in at the beginning of 1978 for JM-2 chassis #20. Zietler, the US importer of Argo cars, later converted #7 to water cooled.

Joe

Looks like # 7 had the later front suspension and nose installed also.

Tom Pomeroy has asked me to correct the following statement Chris Townsend made in an earlier posting regarding his car (Argo JM2) and his physical condition when he was racing it. Please read his email to me below and his corrections in Chris statement highlighted in red.

Best regards,

John Street


To confirm John's 004 history.
I've been doing a bit of digging into SV Argos courtesy of Formula and Sports Car and two were imported by Zeitler in early 77. 007 is Alsup's 77 car, and 004 therefore that of Joe Hill. (Zeitler had been the Modus importer and when Jo Marquart started up Argo they continued the relationship.)
In 1978 Pomeroy gets 004 and 007 goes to Bill Cruse
Alsup gets 020 as a new car. Can't work out who gets 014, 016 and 018 yet though 018 could be Ciccone from new.

In 1979 the water-cooled engine is introduced. A number of drivers who've run in SV switch to the SCCA FC and run old air cooled motors or the watercooled engine on carbs rather than SV spec injection. Pomeroy is one of these - the SCCA finals wins for John's car were in FC both years. (Pomeroy also notable for being a driver with only one hand as result of a birth defect.)

1979: 004 Pomeroy [FC]
007: Cruse spare car [SV]
014: Unknown, perhaps Bill Vermeer [SV]
016: Mark Abel [SV]
018?: Bob Ciccone [SV]
020: James Havell [SV and FC on carbs]
023: Peter Moodie [SV]
025: Unknown, perhaps Cruse's new car [SV]
033: Werner Erhard [SV]
034: Unknown, perhaps Erhard's spare.
In addition to the above the following appear in JM2s in 1979 suggesting either extra cars or some renting out [Ciccone - Vogler as a pair of sprint drivers looks a good option]
Rich Vogler
Brian Johnson

John,
I was not born without a right hand. I was burned by high voltage electricity at age 13 and lost my right arm 4" from the shoulder and the front 1/2 of both feet as well. I was right handed at that time.

I would rather be noted for being the mechanic and engineer on JM2-004 as I did all the set up, repair, and engine building as well as the later conversion from AC to Water Cooled as well as the driving.

004 was equiped with Modus rear uprights when I got it. I believe it was converted to AC by Zeitler as a new unit and he may have used left over parts from his Modus parts stores. This gave the 004 car a wider rear track and better corner exit grip despite the required open differential. The AC also gave it a shorter wheelbase. The combination was very light and maneuverable but had greater aero drag than the narrow track cars. I retained this set up after conversion to WC primarily due to cost issues and the impending obsoletion by the "Tunnel Cars"!

Perhaps you could correct Chris Townsend (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/member.php?u=2641) vbmenu_register("postmenu_1595211", true); for me as I cannot post to this forum.

Thanks and "good grip"
Tom Pomeroy

Just goes to show you cannot beat hearing info direct from the " horses mouth"
some interesting technical info here on AC and WC vee dub motors and wide track suspension etc
how did Tom change gear?

we have a few guys in Uk racing with hand defects and they do very well
notably Geoff Farmer with only 2 "fingers" on his right hand yet he races various cars from S2000 to F1 and Can am extremely hard and succesfully
Then you have Archie Scott-Brown with 1 arm racing those large vintage cars and huge steering wheels
is this the start of another thread?
i was skiing last month in austria and my friend said there goes the blind skier again- he was going very quickly with his "guide" putting many people to shame
you cannot beat sheer determination

I'm more than happy for the correction to be made and apologies to Tom for any ill-feeling the original description may have caused.
[John T. please could you effect this?]

My source for the nature of Tom's incapacity was a contemporary issue of the SCCA magazine Sports Car, so it was not just an injudicious assumption on my part. I take it, from his description of a horrible injury, that Tom must have used a prosthetic arm. And certainly, a very fine engineer and racer regardless...

Chris

I haven't changed your statement on your post #74, Chris, because otherwise the last couple of posts above might prove a bit baffling to readers. However, I have added a note which points to the correction made by Tom and conveyed to us by John Street.

Can anyone help me? I am trying to find anyone who has knowledge of the Argo JM14 chassis numbers. Do you have a JM14. I have a JM14 which may or may not have the correct chassis plate;my number is jm 12822. Does anyone know how to read it? I asume it is 12th month 1982 chassis 2; anybody no any more than that? The reason is that I may need to prove the year of manufacture due to the fact I won the championship with it! No one cares if you're not winning!

regards eddie,

I'm sorry, I seem to have missed this one; I'm moving it to the main history forum bit will merge it later with the Argo archive, if we get any info.

I think your best bet would be to try & track down Nick Jordan, formerly of Argo. He is, or at least was recently, working for Lola. They should be able to put you in contact.

Picture taken at Mid-Ohio regional June 28-29, 1980
http://mwphoto-misc.smugmug.com/photos/228782571-L-1.jpg
ARGO JM2-004 ???

Curently undergoing a much needed refurbish is Argo JM8-053-F3. This car was run by Mark Lawrence in sprints and hillclimbs with a Toyota engine fitted. The Toyota was then replaced with a Rover V8 and John Fellows joined Mark behind the wheel. The car passed through several hands (including Mike Morgan) before Keith Harris acquired it. As Harris is having difficulties squeezing into the cockpit once the work is completed the car will be back up for sale.

:)

Car now in the very capable hands of Barrie Lines.

Seeing the photo of Tom Pomeroy in the Argo and seeing his message earlier through John Streets hand brought a couple of points to mind. One is that it's good to see Tom in active discussions about his racing. I've talked with Tom a couple of times at the prompting of a mutual friend, Charlie Smith, since Charlie knows of the relationship between Toms Argo and my Modus, M1, both being on the front row of the 1980 SCCA runoffs at Road Atlanta. I might also mention that I autocrossed(slalom) against Tom back in the late 60s and early 70s and he was a strong competitor then too. But I was still an engineering student at Ohio State and not able to devote the hours into my Sprite that Tom was to his FV.

I must also mention that SCCA continued Formula Junior in 1964, a year later than the FIA recognized it. In 1965, SCCA established new classes for formula cars: Formula A for formula 1 cars and also cars using stock block engines of up to 5 liters, also called formula 5000.

The number of cars being imported and converted to what had been formula Libre were covered with a new class of Formula B for up to 1600cc production car engines. This class continued for many years until it essentially became Formula Atlantic in the late 70s.

At the start of these new classes, the most common car was the previous year's Formula Juniors. There was also a source for new cars coming into this class for under 1100cc engines as the FIA 1000cc F2 and F3 cars were allowed. This new class was called formula C. FC continued through 1978 and was even experiencing a resurgence due to the Cosworth BDJ motor and appropriate FIA F3 cars to fit them into.

But, for the 1979 season, SCCA combined FC and FSV into a new class called Formula Continental, but also abbreviated FC. I believe there were more liberal rules for FSV cars running in the pro SV races, but for club racers, there was NO decision required as to run in Formula Continental or FSV. Soon the class was dominated by FSV cars and ex-FC cars pretty much disappeared. The last strong performance by an ex-FC car that I am aware was the 1980 runoffs when Mike Rand put my Modus on the pole for the combined race of Formula Continental cars. The outside front row car was Tom's Argo, but driven by another. A few years later, SCCA played w/ the rule book again and added the Formula Ford 2000 cars to the Continental class. Buried in the rules though were allowances for running an under 1100cc engined car or an air-cooled SV. Still abbreviated FC, most have no idea that the class was initially for left over Formula Juniors.

My point here though was to explain there was no choice for FC and FSV competitors in the USA in 1979. Everyone had to be in Formula Continental.

Roger

Roger

Wasn't part of the problem in 1979 that the pro FSV series switched to fuel injection with the new Rabbit [Golf] engine and whilst those mainly SCCA runners who couldn't afford the change might have carried on within FSV as an SCCA class, there weren't enough of them. So the SCCA lumped them into FC and when a fuel injected VW showed up it was put into FA [what had been FB until the demise of the F5000s].

Chris

Useful context Roger - thanks for that. One minor point: in 1965 FA was only for 3-litre cars; the class was extended to allow 5-litre stock blocks in 1968.

Allan,

I'll have to check on that one. I have the actual issue of SCCA's "Sports Car" when the classes were proposed to the membership. I do remember a Cooper F1 car showing up at Mid-Ohio in FA very early on, the 1st or 2nd year. It practised Sat but didn't race, IIRC.

Roger

Chris,

No, not at all. You are probably right about the pro cars going to a new injected engine, but there were more than a few non-injected cars that made up the bulk of the field of the new class F Continental. I've got to do some digging in old issues of "SprotsCar" but I think this change came about at the same time that FB for 1600cc cars became F Atlantic within SCCA. Again, SCCA did not time the change to agree with FIA. In reality, SCCA's FB was probably the basis of F Atlantic through out the rest of the world, and then finally for themselves.

More on the FC, FSV integration into F Continental. At the end of 1978 season, most 1100cc FC cars went into hibernation, because the lap times were known for the FSV cars in their own class. Most FC runners felt SCCA had just killed their class and very few continued to run at all. I know John Fowler, who had run my Modus for 2 seasons and qualified for the runoffs both years, finished 2nd to Jim Trueman in 1978 and set fastest lap and track lap record, put the Modus in storage and moved on to, IIRC, a Formula Atlantic. Bill Rutan bought it after some time and then Mike Rand put it on the pole for 1980. This should give you an idea of how decimated the field of FC was after inclusion in F Continental in 1979. I have a photo of the field approaching the start of the 1980 runoffs race and as far as I can see, the Modus on the pole is the only ex-FC car in the field.

Roger

Neptune
Slightly Off Topic
These Scca Magazines You Have
Are They Regional Or The Mag For The Whole Of Usa?
I Seek Some Magazines With Race Results Photos Etc For B Sports Races ( Seeking To Trace Certain Cars) And Later Can Am Races Would You Have Any That Cover The 1972-80 Periods
If Not Where Can I Acquire Them? Any Book Shops That Horde old Race Magazines?

Drifty

I have Autoweek 1975-76 and 81-83 and On Track mid 80s
Allen has Sports Car 1976-82 [SCCA national mag], Formula and On Track 1975-1983
There are BSR results from mid 70s in Formula [I know this as I used the FB results from the same meetings] very few pictures though
A good source for American magazines is Kryder Racing in Ohio. Talk to Sandy Kryder. They have a website that lists stock.

Chris

Thanks for info tel fax for Kryder racing?

Neptune
Slightly Off Topic
These Scca Magazines You Have
Are They Regional Or The Mag For The Whole Of Usa?
I Seek Some Magazines With Race Results Photos Etc For B Sports Races ( Seeking To Trace Certain Cars) And Later Can Am Races Would You Have Any That Cover The 1972-80 Periods
If Not Where Can I Acquire Them? Any Book Shops That Horde old Race Magazines?

Kevan,

I have several years of that era of the national SCCA mags that I'll be selling soon. I'll let you know what I have when I return from your side of the pond next week.

Driftwood,

As has already been said, Sports Car is the mag for all US SCCA. I have a few from the early 50s, bought a collection of '58-68 and joined SCCA in late 1977 until just a couple of years ago and I kept most of the monthlies from that period. The ones from the 60s and 70s don't have a lot of photos or even for that matter, a lot of results. By the 80s, they were better about covering "national" races, but the results are usually only 1 or 2 deep in each class and maybe only one photo per event.

Competition Press and Autoweek, a weekly most like UK's Motoring News was the best as far as club racing reports. I kept some from as early as 1964, but weeklies take up so much space and the newsprint gets yellowed and brittle.
What cars are you trying to trace?

Roger

lola t290 t292/4 cars B sports racers
all i have are the run off results from 72 and 75?

Allen,

I found the proposed class structures for FA, FB and FC in the December 1964 Sports Car. You are right about the 5 liter stock block motors not included in FA until a later date. This was the proposal, not the actual rule. But I can't imagine it changed much, as the proposal is pretty much as I remember the rules.
Roger

Roger

I know that John Fowler of Charleston, W.Virgina ran your car for a couple of years as an FC before moving to Atlantic. Have you ever talked to him? I'm interested in his RT1 and RT4...

Chris

Chris,
My car was in Atlanta when I bought it. I looked it over when we were down racing my Eleven in October, then at the end of November, Brit & I arranged to meet in southern Kentucky where it rolled out of his trailer into mine. I had contacted SCCA for an address for John and already had a letter ready to mail, as soon as the transaction happened. I mailed it the next morning, still in Ky and the following Thursday, a package of photos and information arrived. We've kept in contact over the years since.

I'll have to look at John's letters, but seems like he remembered half of the cars he'd raced had been destroyed. Jerry Mong did the Modus conversion from F3 to SCCA FC and kept the BDJ motors going. I think that when John moved on in 1979, he bought a Bobsy FAtl from Jerry. Fast forward through the years and now I'm probably going to have Jerry's son Ron refresh the tub as one of the 1st steps in the Modus restoration.

Roger

Roger

Thanks, didn't know about the Bobsy [now there's a thread for a constructor we haven't touched. Very few Bobsys ever made it into the pro series so I've rather neglected them. Do the Mong family have records of their build run?]

Fowler had an RT1 1981/82, then an RT4 82-86 which can be one of only three cars.

Chris

Chris,

I'll have to contact John again. I had a work email for him but he has since left that firm. I don't think he was very happy w/ the Bobsy. IIRC, the aerodynamics of the car was not up to that of the UK manufacturers who were so much closer to the developments in F1. We tend to think of the 70s as the era of flat bottomed, winged cars and an individual buying a new car in 1979 might have had a tough way to go. I'm surprised though he would buy a RT1, as I would think it would have been more of the same.

Maybe I can get John's email and you could communicate directly.

Roger

Roger,

Do you have any contacts at the Crawford Auto Museum in Cleveland? I am trying find the history of the Argo JM2 chassis #007 that they have. I sent them a couple of emails and tried to call them but they do not respond.

I spoke to Bill Alsup about the car and he seems to remember selling it to Jim Harrall (sp?) after the 1977 season. Reportedly the museum claims that the car is one that Bill used to win the championship in 1978.

As I am sure you know, there are similar claims to my car. Argo JM2 chassis #20. Alsup thought John Zitler sold him a new water cooled JM2 at the beginning of the 1978 season. Unfortunitly, My SCCA log book only go back as far as the beginning of 1979 so I don't have a paper trail to confirm this.

Any help would be appriciated.

Joe

Joe

007 would certainly be 1977 production
020 is certainly 1978 (018 is the works F3 car debuted in spring 1978, 021 was the works F3 car in early 1979)

According to Sports Car December 1978, p. 20 Bill Cruse used "the Argo that Alsup ran in 1977" throughout 1978 in SCCA NE division FC.
This would mean that Cruse had 007 [and maybe kept it in 1979 as a spare car]
Alsup would have run 020 in the 1978 pro series. According to Sports Car Dec 1979 James Havell has an ex Alsup JM2. This might be 007, explaining the confusion with Jim Harrell [who I thought was out of racing by that time] or could be 020 [but that can be checked with your log book.

My money is that 020 is the 1978 champ winning car, based on Sports Car's reference to 007 going to Cruse.

Chris

Chris Thanks for your last post. It certainly provides some answers to my many questions.

Jim Havell never owned Argo JM-2 Chassis #20 according to the logbook. The SCCA logbook shows it was issued on 4/10/79 to William D. Vermeer (presumably the 2nd owner after Alsup). The logbook number is #79-226, the same number that is also stamped into the roll bar. The remainder of the owners are as follows: Frank Vella, Mike Studnicki, Dan Wait, Wayne McGaughty, Carl Feghali, Dominic Ballera and myself.

The logbook indicates that Vermeer raced the car extensively from 1979 to 1981 but I can find little record of this in the race results. He owned the car until 8/16/85. I found a period photo of the car from the early eighties as it appears in the logbook presumably driven by Vermeer. Alsup said that a guy he thought might have been Vermeer approached him at a Mid Ohio race while he was still racing Indy Cars claiming to owned his championship FSV car.

Alsup thought that after he “traded in” has 1977 air-cooled car (Argo JM-2 #007) that John Zitler converted it to water cooled specification and it went to Jim Havell or Harrell from Connecticut. He said that Jim kept calling him and asking for set-up information but every time he offered any suggestions, Jim always had “better ideas”. The possibility that it went to Bill Cruse in 1978 before it went to Jim Havell is likely, as Bill’s memory was a bit foggy on some of the details and dates.

For your information, Dominic also owned Argo JM-2 chasses #016. This reportedly was the George Dyer car in 1978. It was a wrecked car that Dominic purchased and used for parts. I have the old logbook, which shows that it was issued on 3/12/79 to Mark Abel. The logbook number is #79-191. The only other owner was Scott Refert who crashed the car heavily on 5/23/86 at Road Atlanta.

Best regards, Joe

Joe

Just possible that Alsup did use 007 in one early 1978 pro round
At the first Mini-Indy championship round, Phoenix 18 March he's got the only Argo
At Trenton Mini-Indy 23 April Alsup is there, and so are Cruse [presumably with 007] and Bobby Olivero in another Argo. This could be 020's debut.

Chris

Joe

I've got four years of pro results and a few SCCA results for Vermeer.
There are a few gaps in the pro races, but they run 79 to 82
Drop me a private mail

Chris

Chris,

Good thought. I may have some photographic evidence that to support that possibility. Bill Alsup sent me a couple of photos of the car. One at Phoenix in March and the other from September (I don’t remember the race). The earlier photo shows the original “high down force” nose and the other has the later “speedway” nose. Bill could not remember when the new style nose was introduced. It is quite possible that the speedway nose was supplied with the new car in 1978. I will try and figure out how to post the photos.

Joe

Chris,

Attached are the photos provide by Bill Alsup. The first is at Phoenix on March 18th 1978 and the other is at Ontario Motor Speedway on Sept. 2nd 1978. There are some other differences between the two cars besides the front nose such as the rear wing and wheels. I strongly suspect you are right and Argo JM2 Chassis # 007 was the car Alsup used at Phoenix. I can no longer view the photo of the car as it appears at the Crawford Museum but I bet it looks remarkably like the photo from the Phoenix race!

Joe

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg124/pooch776/FSVPHX0378copyCopy.jpg
http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg124/pooch776/FSVONT0978copyCopy.jpg

Hello,

I'm the owner of a F3 ARGO JM8 from 1981.
I'm looking to find historic pictures and all tehnical informations from this car.
Please let me know.
Best regards

Marc

http://gtreric1.free.fr/vhcturckheim/original/Redimensionnement%20de%20argo%20jm8.JPG

Hi
what is the chassis number motor fitted and any names or drivers or teams associated with the car?
Any old bodywork with paint sponsors stickers?
I assume you are french and running the car now in mountain races?

Drivers known in 1981-83 racing in F3 are
JM8
Jon Beekhuis, Enrique Benamo, John Booth, Paul Hutson, Victor Rosso, David Sturdy, Tierry Tassin. later Bruno Huber

Hello,

Thank you for reply.

Chassis n° is JM8 052 F3 fitted with a 2L Toyota Novamotor with Kugelfischer mechanical injection.
Since 2001, it run in F3 Classic French and HRA Germany championship.
Who drove this car: 1981-....2001 ?
I believe it's in Europe.
Thierry Tassin ? with Belga as Sponsor ? Team was Anglia Cars ?
Pictures ?
Are you sure that Bruno Huber drove a JM8 ?

Please, let me know.

Best regards

Marc

Marc
052 is not one I have noted against a particular driver.
Alan Brown, who posts regularly on this forum observed the following in 1981
051-F3 Rushen Green Racing [Enrique Benamo/David Sears]
053-F3 Paul Hutson
055-F3 David Sturdy

The other regular drivers of JM8s in 1981 were
Thierry Tassin [UK series]
Jon Beekhuis [UK series]
John Booth [UK series]
Derek Butt [UK series]
Roy Fish [UK series, one race only but was a new car]
Franco Forini [Italian series]

I think that Bruno Huber had a JM3

Chris

Huber is later listed on f3 website as running NJ8 after his JM3

I have bought an Argo in super vee configuration with indentification
number 040 1-76. Does any one has any information about this car.
Were it run or who was one of the former owners? At this moment it
has Swiss sponsor logo's on the car. And it has a sticker from the Formel
Rennsport club der Schweitz (FRC).

If any has some information would they be so kind and send me this
information.

Kind Regards,
Theo

This would be a late 1979 or early 1980 car I guess. So either a JM4 or JM7 if its a genuine SuperVee as opposed to an F3 conversion.

I don't think it can be chassis 040 as that was a JM6 F3 car and was noted as used by Duncan Bain in UK in 1989 [I guess in libre races]
The 1-76 bit is intriguing...
The format of the numbers is nothing like the normal Argo format, could you post a photo of the plate?
The first Argo built [JM1] was built March 77 and sold to Rudi Gygax in mid 1977, so would have Swiss history, but we are a long from saying it's that car.
Could you also tell us more about the sponsor [name? colour scheme]
Any dates on the Formel Rennsport Club sticker?

Chris

You wouldn't be mistaking the car for a Modus would you, Theo?? The 1976 bit would fit, and IIRC quite a few Modi were exported to Austria/Germany for FSV, F3 and climbing.

Dan

I had exactly the same thought last night! Still couldn't be 040 as that has traceable history in USA through to the present, though it wouldn't be the first time that a duplicate chassis plate came out of Modus!

lets see some photos of the car with body on and body off
look at the uprights do they have a name or a part number on them?

Here are some pictures of the car. There is no chassisplate at the car, the number on the picture together with another number on the side of the car (11-77) are the only numbers I have.

Thanks to all of you for all your help allready!

greetings, Theo

i see the upright has modus on it -typical of Jo M using older car parts on a new car without changing the name!!

Theo/ others,

I have F3-040-F3 Modus. Bryan Miller told me there should have been a tub number stamped into the rear bulkhead, but I could never find one. I do have contiuous history of the car from Bret Riley in 1976 through all the US owners since 1977.

Please show us some more photos of the cars chassis tub with details of the overall buklheads and some internal details. Does the car have an aluminum Argo Cars plate w/ a number stamped on it?

Roger

Theo

Most interesting! I do not think that the 040 1 76 stamping relates to the chassis number of the car. Please can we see some pictures of the front of the tub, as Roger suggests?
The bodywork has obviously been heavily modified over the years. If it has Modus uprights it suggests either that it IS a Modus or that it is an early Argo

Chris

Note Chris how i refrained from suggesting it was a Modus!
as Inspector Clousseau said 2suspect everything AND nothing!"
so what now kato?

Hallo your kind all

thanks for reakting , its mayby an moddyficht aircould super vee modus ?
It have original VW uprichts on the front .
I have other pictures from the chassis for yours

Regards Theo

Theo,

It sure quacks like a duck. Lots of Modus features. I can even see the 3/4 square tube which originally was all the support the factory provided for the dash. The triangular corner re-inforcement at the lower rear of the tub is original and the upper trailing arm mount, located on top of the tub is typical of later Modus.

Even the traingular cross-section reinforcement inside the front suspension, between the two bulkheads and the square crossbar (that locates the top of the front shocks) and the small diameter tubes which go up to the top mount from the steering rack etc is Modus.

I would suggest you go to the Modus page here and read it all. There may be a photo of the tub number on Bryan Miller's car, now owned by his brother. His car has a replacement tub. There should also be a Modus number plate on the left side of the cockpit, just opposite of the shifter on the right side. I'm gonna guess that if there is no evidence of that number plate, I'd suggest that you have a replacement tub, and that the number on the bulkhead is the replacement tub number. Do you have the log books for the car? They should help in determining a model & S/N.

I see that in the Classic F3 series race at Pembrey recently, there were 2
JM3s out. Assuming one is the ex-works/Guerrero car, is the other an import? Ex-RTH maybe, anyone know anything?

I own a JM3 F3 chassis number 35 I am keen to find out more about this car... can anyone help?

Thanks

Ben

We know that Guerrero had 021 at least to begin with, though he might have needed a replacement chassis.
Other users of JM3 were
Bruno Eichmann [a car later sold to Marcus Simeon] with BMW engine
Bruno Huber
and two cars for Racing Team Holland for Luyendijk and Rob Leuweenberg

Do you have original bodywork?

Chris

Yes I do have the original body work

I believe that the car was a late development JM3 as the tub is very similar to to the JM6 around the bulk head and side pods. I have found an old autosport that talks about Guerrero testing a development chassis at Mallory.

I guess there is not a factory register anywhere that lists who has what I understand that Marcus Pye does have access to some of this information.

The Chassis has the mountings for a Toyota block and also had the installation kit for an FT box I have changed this and fitted a MK9 box

Ben

We know that 036 was an Atlantic car that was delivered latish in the 1979 season, so it could be that you have the development car.
034 was Bruce Venn's Super Vee, which I think was delivered March-April

What colour is the gel coat on the bodywork? What is the next colour over it - if there is one?

Chris

If Guerrero's first JM3 was no. 21, and Ben has a late season car, no. 35, then what were the 14 cars in-between. Roughly 5 other JM3s perhaps, so were the other 9 FVS JM4s, mainly for the US I guess?